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Steep declines

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SeattleWoman said:
How steep are the declines on the CF? Are hiking shoes necessary or are tennis shoes ok? Are walking poles necessary?
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Some can be pretty steep and the ground either loose gravel or slick rock. The worse stretches that I remember or the descent from Alto de Perdon and the one down to Molinaseca. I would normally recommend hiking shoes for these but if you are planning to walk with lighter footwear I wouldn't suggest to change your footwear for the whole camino. Poles aren't necessary but many here recommend them for walking even on the flat parts. Peg and I normally hike in the mountains with one pole apiece but for the camino I gave her mine to use on day two onwards and we were both happy.
 
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Alto de Erro and Alto del Perdon. I was lucky to have my wooden stick on both down hills. Camino ending injuries can happen on both. Sharp rocks at Erro, slippery round rocks at Perdon, not good for your back, knees and heels. I use New Balance trail runners. Que la luz de Dios alumbre su camino.
 
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How long do you plan to walk? If you'll be going any great distance, a significant part of the time you will be on uneven ground and loose rocks and stones. You will need footwear with a firm sole to protect your feet. Hours of walking on uneven ground, with the added weight of a pack, can be extremely difficult on one's feet without sturdy footwear. Some folk even add special inner soles to their footwear. Even with my relatively sturdy boots, the descent on the Alto de Perdon over those loose rocks was extremely difficult - my feet never ached so much. I would not recommend tennis shoes.
 
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SeattleWoman said:
are tennis shoes ok?
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I assume you mean athletic shoes in a general way. True tennis shoes do not have the grip that I would recommend for the camino. There are some tricky slopes - steep and loose materials, or steep and rock which can be slippery especially when wet. Furthermore, even city cobblestones can be slippery. So I'd recommend a shoe or boot with good traction/tread.

I certainly rely on my poles when going down steep slopes.

As has been pointed out, there are many enthusiastic discussions about poles and recommended footwear here on the forum. For extensive (!) reading, use the search box in the upper right.
 
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SeattleWoman said:
How steep are the declines on the CF? Are hiking shoes necessary or are tennis shoes ok? Are walking poles necessary?
Thanks!!
Click to expand...
Shoes: I did quite well in "Moab Ventilators" last year, and this year, something that cost only €11 at Decathlon.

Sticks: I have survived some pretty rough terrain without them, though I wished I had brought them along. But even on level ground, having two and using them properly is a good thing. I see a lot of people for whom the sticks are merely extra weight, lightly tapping them on the ground. But if you time them with your steps and put a small amount of your weight on the sticks, they not only help balance but they ease the stress on your feet. "Small amount" because leaning on them too hard will make your arms hurt.
 
Worst decline: Alto de Erro into Zubiri. In the rain. Worse even than the descent into Molinaseca, waaay worse than the descent of the Alto de Perdon. Last time through I had to stop and help a lady who simply would not have made it down unaided....

Best shoes: Moab Ventilators, but something from New Balance would probably do just fine. Forget boots.

Sticks: I bought an 'old man's cane' in SJPdeP and it did just fine.
 

Alto de Erro to Zubiri; slippery in mud and slush - a most interesting challenge
Alto de Perdon; loose stones, merciless on the soles of the feet
Descent to Molinaseca - endlessly brutal but, oh so beautiful!
Sticks / Poles; essential
 
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Hi SeattleWoman. I used Hoka One One trail runners. They were quite large (men's 10!) but had lots of room in the toe which is important as your feet swell and you are often jamming your toes into the end of the shoe, particularly on those tough descents! They also have very big cushioned soles and good grips which I would recommend. It also depends on if you feel you need ankle support. I would suggest going to a speciality shoe store and speaking to someone there.

For me, the poles were a life saver. I had problems with both knees and it really helped in terms of distributing the weight. They were especially helpful on ascents but also descents to help me with my balance. I really don't think I could have done it without them but it's a matter of personal preference and needs i think.
 
It's not just the descents, but also just rocky, muddy, uneven trails along the route, especially once you get to Galicia. I was very glad to have the beefier sole of hinking shoes and themsupport of poles. Poles kept me on my feet on more than 1 occasion.
 
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davebugg said:
Oh, Yeah. Even when dry it was something. Caleb and I nicknamed it the Dragon's Teeth.
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Interesting how we are all different. Several here are mentioning the difficult descent into Zubiri. I walked it in 2015 and again just this past spring and I don't remember any extreme difficulty, but then I don't have knee problems...maybe just a little dementia?
 
I actually found the descent into Molinaseca quite enjoyable. I would agree that the descent into Zubiri is tough to say the least. I walked it last in 2014 and still remember it vividly.
I usually wear Merrell or Saloman. Make sure the sole gives you good protection.
Sticks or poles are not essential but one is handy to have.
 
I too, really enjoyed the descent into Molineseca. True trails, slabs of bluestone, great views and flowering bushes. I also loved the kilometers after Cruz de Ferro as the trail eventually descended into El Acebo. It was another one of my favorite memories with such beautiful views and flower laden bushes in lavendar, pink, white and yellow...stunning!
Oh good, maybe I don't have dementia after all!
 
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...and ship it to Santiago for storage. You pick it up once in Santiago. Service offered by Casa Ivar (we use DHL for transportation).
I wear Ecco OffRoad sandals and use two trekking sticks.
 
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Summer/Fall caminos I walked in Nike running shoes. Started winter camino same way, but had to use hiking boots: mud forced me.

I always trekked with one hiking pole and will do so again.
Buen camino.
 
rappahannock_rev said:
Worst decline: Alto de Erro into Zubiri. In the rain. Worse even than the descent into Molinaseca, waaay worse than the descent of the Alto de Perdon.
Click to expand...

Really?
My last Camino from St Jean I took the alternate road route down to Zubiri, as I have bad feet.
Never again. Way too dangerous on the hairpins with the traffic.

So next year I plan on taking the direct route down to Zubiri with Pat, who also has bad feet.
For me, the descent into Molinaseca was the hardest part of the whole CF. I ended up in Physio in Ponferrada with wrecked shins.

Is the route down from Alto de Erro worse that that?

But we all cope differently don't we?
I recall from the guidebooks that the decent off the Meseta after Castrojeriz was dangerous.
I didn't really notice anything about it (in the dry)

And likewise, coming off Alto Del Perdon. (again dry)
Didn't provide any problems either.
 
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trecile said:
I am among many who prefer lightweight trail running shoes. I've walked the Frances twice in these New Balance trail shoes.
Click to expand...

I only wish I could walk in something like that.

Sadly I wouldn't make it 2-3 days in those.

I need the firm sole and ankle support that boots give me.

Footwear is such a personal thing. Really the only thing to do is some training walks and see what works for you @SeattleWoman
 
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@SeattleWoman ,
I bought a pair of Leki collapsibles just in case and have used them ever since, I carry a good load, have back issues and darn yes, I use sticks a good deal when going down.
I myself only use boots, supple and flexible for walking not scrambling, but I find it nescessary to protect my ankles....
Give it a test in your neighbourhood with different footwear, borrow some walking poles and find yourself a killer descent and see what your needs are !??
best of walking luck...
 
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I remember that walk into Molinaseca! That was an epic day. Some of the declines are quite steep and rocky...definitely slippery when wet. Many do not wear hiking shoes to walk the Camino. Many also do not use walking poles. If I had to pick one as being more essential than the other I’d say it’s hiking poles. They are hugely beneficial on reducing the wear and tear on your legs...especially your knees on steep declines.
 
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....Another aspect of the poles, I find, is the fact that in the end of the day my legs are so stiff from the hard days excertion that if I were to misstep, my reflexes will not be able correct my misbalance in time...
I have had one close call, and I know from other times that I fall like a stiff log in these conditions of near fatigue..
- lightweight poles ( a set of) weigh about 500 grs / 1 pound/16 oz, an easy choice of safety, I find
 
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In dry conditions, trail shoes or runners work great and are what I have worn on my last two Camino's. I would say 80% of the Camino Frances is perfect for trail shoes or runners, 20% of it I will admit would be better in boots, but since only one pair of walking shoes makes sense, I will go with the 80% solution.
Some walkers find they need the ankle support of a boot. In my experience the individuals I have seen with the worst foot related issues have generally been wearing boots. I see people in heavy hunting style boots, work boots (even steel toed ones) or mountaineering boots which are too heavy and don't breathe well enough for a daily 25 to 30 kilometers of walking. Others of course will disagree with this. My foot issues largely disappeared from first and second year Camino's when I made the switch to trail shoes after trying two different boots in year one and two of walking and having feet that looked like a torture session from the Spanish Inquisition!
Low cut shoes of any type can of course be a challenge if you happen to hit a stretch of really wet weather, as the mud in Spain is a heavy clay based boot/shoe sucking gumbo when wet. I have been lucky that in four years of walking in April each time I have largely avoided any serious sustained rain.
Poles as you will find once you read some of the threads on this site are should we say a 'polarizing' subject on this forum, some of us love them (like me) others think they are the work of the devil...or completely unnecessary. I use them 100% of the time. I have switched to rubber tips in the last year to eliminate the 'ticking/clicking' of the carbide tips which some walkers are sensitive too. Rubber tips are better on hard surfaces, but not as good on softer surfaces, but I can't be bothered to switch back and forth myself.
 
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True, they are slopes of the worst baked-potatoe-size stones with muddust that I have ever seen. What a dragon of a slope !!
 
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Altra lone peak. Wouldn’t walk in anything else but that’s because they suit me. They don’t suit everyone. They do have excellent soles with very good grip.
Walking poles but not all the time, maybe 10%, mostly for up and down hills and in bad weather. Other times they live in my backpack and I carry them without complaint. Would not do a camino without them.
Worse descent for me was coming down to Molinaseca on a day of non-stop teaming rain. Took it slowly and got out my walking poles. I remember cheering out loud when I got to the paved road leading into Molinseca and a pilgrim getting her breath across the road laughed with me. Did the same section this year in dry weather and it was fine.
 
HedaP said:
Walking poles but not all the time, maybe 10%, mostly for up and down hills and in bad weather. Other times they live in my backpack and I carry them without complaint. Would not do a camino without them.
Click to expand...
Packing them and using them when you think you need them is one thing, but I have to restrain myself from "advising" those I see with one in each hand on level path without getting any value from them (unless a slight tapping sound is value).
 
WGroleau said:
Packing them and using them when you think you need them is one thing, but I have to restrain myself from "advising" those I see with one in each hand on level path without getting any value from them (unless a slight tapping sound is value).
Click to expand...

I get a lot of value out of my poles on the flat. Depends how you use them
 
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WGroleau said:
Packing them and using them when you think you need them is one thing, but I have to restrain myself from "advising" those I see with one in each hand on level path without getting any value from them (unless a slight tapping sound is value).
Click to expand...
When I use my poles on the flats I am keeping my arms engaged, which helps keep them toned and keeps my hands from swelling. They don't click because I always have rubber tips on them. The poles do go in my pack while walking through cities and villages.
 
Robo said:
I get a lot of value out of my poles on the flat. Depends how you use them
Click to expand...
That's my point. If all you do is tap the ground with them, they're just extra weight (unless you're blind). But just a little weight on them with the right rhythm, and the ease the burden on your feet and help you balance.
 
SeattleWoman said:
...Are hiking shoes necessary or are tennis shoes ok? ...
Click to expand...
And use those hiking shoes for tennis?
Just joking. Hiking shoes are definitely not a must, but they can make life (walking) a lot easier. With regard to walking sticks. I like to walk with one stick instead of two.
 
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SeattleWoman said:
How steep are the declines on the CF? Are hiking shoes necessary or are tennis shoes ok? Are walking poles necessary?
Thanks!!
Click to expand...
I would definitely recommend that you head over to YouTube and watch some instructional videos on tying your laces. It’s important to pause before declines and retie your laces in order to prevent your foot slipping forward in your boot and injuring or blistering your toes, and you can reconfigure your laces to prevent this slippage.
 
SeattleWoman said:
How steep are the declines on the CF? Are hiking shoes necessary or are tennis shoes ok? Are walking poles necessary?
Thanks!!
Click to expand...
Walked about the whole CF on Keen Sandals with good grip. Have had no problems whatsoever with any of the descends. It's very personal though, I even did one descend on my flipflops (Reefs with good grip) and passed some people who were wearing boots and were having problems. Could not have done it wihout my poles though, they keep me from falling.
In rain my feet would get wet but the nice thing with sandals: they dry quickly.
Buen Camino!
 
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SeattleWoman said:
How steep are the declines on the CF? Are hiking shoes necessary or are tennis shoes ok? Are walking poles necessary?
Thanks!!
Click to expand...
In the fall and spring, mornings have some dew making it a bit slippery. On the Le Puy, Del Norte and Primitivo I'd say about 30% is on steep slopes or stone paths that are slippery especially during the first 2 hours and obviouly lots more when it rains. Good walking poles give you the advantages of propelling you with plain old physics calculations. Go Google that. Virtually all credible hiking forums recommend hiking poles for that reason plus the poles help you stabilize you when the going gets rough. It only takes one event to twist an ankle. The poles also help you "slow down" when descending. Going down slopes is where you develop tendinitis; Google that word also. Two of my hiking friends developed tendinitis and required medical intervention. Go with high end hiking shoes, they are lighter, and weight is everything on long hikes. Again, do the math to lift an extra ounce for at least 30,000 strides per day times about 45 days; the answer is 30,000 × 45 × 1 (ounce or 28 grams) = 1,350,000 ounces or 84,375 pounds or 37,800,000 grams or 37,800 kilos. One ounce can make a big difference at the end of each day. Now try half a pound !! I bet you never thought you were strong enough to carry all those tons on the Compostelle/Camino !!
 
Alto Erro and Alto Perdon have been mentioned but the one that killed my shins was the downside of the Pyrenees from Ciz to Roncesvalles. DO NOT TAKE the path to the left. It is like a Double Black Diamond Ski Slope with footing to match. The path to the right is a couple km longer but much easier. It is in the paperwork received in St. Jean from the Pilgrims' Office when purchasing the Credenciel.
 
Concur with Michelle, and the Pilgrim's Office was very clear on this and even highlighted the route on the charts they passed to all the pilgrims, but when I reached that point with my wife I only saw ONE pilgrim taking the "long path on the right" with us. We arrived Roncesvalles well ahead of the bunch that was way ahead of us when we reached the summit [they took the path of the left]. Again, take the RIGHT path. Good luck, que la luz de Dios alumbre su camino.
 
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For the education of an ignoramus, where is Alto de Perdon?
 
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Footwear and poles can be very personal choices. I prefer boots and poles. I do not think I could have completed the caminos without both.

On my three caminos (and other hikes) at age 70, I used (a) Vasque Talus boots (bought at REI), and (b) Pacer Poles.

My second pair of Talus boots, which I used on the caminos, were comfortable from the first time I wore them. I bought a half-size larger than my size to ensure adequate toe space, and I am glad that I did. Good support, good protection, the Vasque Talus are worth considering. My wife loved hers also.

I loved (and still love) my Pacer Poles. Here are excerpts from a recent re-post of my observations:

====
After reading this forum extensively in 2014 before my three 2015 Caminos, I investigated PacerPoles The PP videos and instructions were useful, and the PP unique handle design makes it easy to learn how to use them and difficult to use them improperly. (Chris Bonnington's comments impressed me too.)

<<
http://www.pacerpole.com

They can be obtained online from Britain. There are also YouTube videos showing how to use them. Their handles are quite different from other poles, and they are very comfortable to use.

I used PacerPoles last year for nearly 1000 miles on the Camino Frances, Camino Portuguese and Camino Ingles. Before that, I used them on a difficult hike in the highlands of Bali. I am 70+ . These poles have been a major contribution to both my safety and my comfort.

Here is a review I just found online:

http://sectionhiker.com/pacer-poles-why-arent-all-trekking-poles-this-good/

It begins:

"British-made Pacerpoles are far superior to the trekking poles you can buy in the United States. I’ve been testing a pair for nearly 2 months and I am a convert. They help me carry a backpack with better posture, prevent muscle soreness in my legs, and are much more resistant to bending and snapping than my current trekking poles.

The main difference between conventional poles and Pacerpoles is in the hand grip. It’s kind of hard to explain so I’ve shot this video to show you. Instead of a vertical pole grip, the Pacerpoles have a horizontal pistol style grip, where your thumb is positioned at a 45 degree angle to the ground and the ball of your hand is on the top of the pole. These two changes give you a much better mechanical advantage to use the poles for propulsion and lift, rather than just lateral stabilization like conventional hiking and trekking poles."

I suggest reading the entire review, which also includes:

"If you decide to take the plunge, Pacerpoles has an unlimited 30 day return policy which may or may not give you enough time to decide whether you like the differences or not. Either way, you really need to commit to these poles to get any benefit out of them." AND

"Conclusion
I am very impressed with the aluminum pair of Pacer Poles that I tested in this review and I’m glad I finally tried them. Honestly, I will probably buy a pair of my own rather than continue using Black Diamond trekking poles for three season hiking. The Pacerpole hand grip makes such a difference in my posture, walking speed, and stability that I can’t imagine settling for anything less. If you climb a lot of mountains, you should give Pacerpoles a try. I would recommend sticking with the aluminum ones, only because they will be more resistant to breaking and they are likely to still be usable if you bend them. I’ve snapped way more carbon fiber poles than I ever want to and don’t trust them in very rocky terrain."

My own discovery of PacerPoles was through this Forum, which I explained in an earlier post:

"I do not think I would have completed the Caminos without them, because I had several long stretches with a problem with my left leg. Others in my family have also used them with similarly positive experiences. I tried them after reading a lengthy thread asking something like "Does anyone NOT like PacerPoles?" They are made in the UK, and there is a 30 day trial period. Learning to use them is relatively easy. The instructions and the videos are reasonably straight-forward. With their special, angled grips for the left and right hands it is difficult to use them improperly."
>>
=================

Those are my personal, subjective observations based on my experience as an older hiker who did no physical training for the caminos (1000 miles) that I walked in 2015.
 
Mack said:
For the education of an ignoramus, where is Alto de Perdon?
Click to expand...

On the 4th day Mack from StJPP ,
If the average pilgrim try to make it over by three they are on the way home by Puenta la Reina.
 
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VNwalking said:
It's not nearly the distance or the number of meters of descent. But the interesting bits are about the same degree of interesting, or maybe a bit more.
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Yikes! That descent into Molineseca almost finished me. (I have bad feet and shins)
I might have to 'dice with death' and try the alternate road route down to Zubiri again
It's about 4 kms longer too
 
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SeattleWoman said:
How steep are the declines on the CF? Are hiking shoes necessary or are tennis shoes ok? Are walking poles necessary?
Thanks!!
Click to expand...
I used trail running shoes (Nike Wildhorse III) when I walked May/June 2017. Shoes did great. Good traction/tread and very little wear (Bought them one size larger than normal). I highly recommend trekking poles for the descents to reduce the forces on your knees. I also used an elastic knee brace on my right knee. Several steep, rocky descents (As described by others). It is very important to carefully watch foot placement in these areas to avoid injury.
 
....... the downside of the Pyrenees from Ciz to Roncesvalles.
Click to expand...
Please help me here. The link below tells me that the distance from col de Lepoeder to Roncesvalles is 6 k.
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...ps-of-all-34-stages-of-the-camino-frances.12/
This link tells me - correct me if I am wrong - that from col de Lepoeder to Roncesvalles there's a drop in altitude of roughly 500 m. [Scroll down to 'Napoleon Route (Recommended)" first para.]
https://www.caminoadventures.com/camino-frances/st-jean-to-roncesvalles/
There's a decent map on this second link showing the route from SJPP to Roncesvalles. Could someone please tell me where Ciz is located? Thanks very much.
 
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I find these questions fascinating because walking the Camino taught me to ditch everything I thought I knew about my feet and footwear.

I ended up sending my trusted boots home and walking in sandals. I did not need the ankle support I usually require. I had no issues whatsoever with the usual culprits: knee and ankle. Though I was introduced to a new friend: crippling tendonitis.

When I walk next year, I'll use trail runners and sandals. It's nice to change footwear during the day sometimes.

The descents are not especially bad, though they can be steep in spots and one should be careful. The weather can make big difference on how easily navigable any descent is.

I would not do another Camino without my trekking poles. I still cannot believe that I hiked for so many years without them!
 
Bornean said:
I'll use trail runners and sandals. It's nice to change footwear during the day sometimes.
Click to expand...

Volley OC's and Sandals with wool socks until noon then no socks
The last 10 years and how many ?????????
Thats the best way by so far Bornean.
 

Not sure what your question is. 6k with a drop of 500 m sounds about right.
Never heard of Ciz. Sorry. Who or what is Ciz?
 
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Robo said:
Not sure what your question is. 6k with a drop of 500 m sounds about right.
Never heard of Ciz. Sorry. Who or what is Ciz?
Click to expand...

Neither have i Robo
But looking at my MMDD from many years ago , and hoping there has been no decrease in height
Orisson 790m
Croix Thibaut 1240m
*****Mendi Chipe 1520m
Col Lepoeder 1430
You are now 6 km fro Ronces. turn right 5.6km
Turn left 5.1km
**Roncesvalles 900m

Some where in there mate is Ciz.
But its not major , take the longer route is whats recommended..
 
Thornley said:
Volley OC's and Sandals with wool socks until noon then no socks
The last 10 years and how many ?????????
Thats the best way by so far Bornean.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, Thornley!

I'm only taking my trail runners because they are so light, I got them dirt cheap in a clearance sale, and it wouldn't break my heart to ditch them if they let me down. I've been jungle trekking in them regularly for the last month and they feel great. And because of the lack of ankle support, I'm training myself to adjust to certain things, which I think is very helpful.

When I did the Camino Frances 2 years ago, I approached it the same way I would if I were hiking in NZ, the U.S., or what we here in SEA would refer to as "western" countries. What works for me is to approach it as if I were trekking here at home in South East Asia, with a little bit of other stuff thrown in - fusion hiking
 
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You and any dutch mates will get on well ,
They advised/told/ordered me ....sandals and get good NZ woollen socks in ...... 2008
Is it that far away from you to buy ............they asked
 
Kathar1na said:
Lepoeder,
Click to expand...

That is the place 6 km from Ronsc.
Whilst we assume ?? that is what the op meant to say, there are many new kids on the block who may love us oldies to keep it simple ,
Because as you know Katharina it is a simple walk :
1/
You can't get lost
2/
You won't get blisters if you.......
3/
You should take 40 days .........
5/
Will it rain in Galicia...................Kanga will it rain in Sydney???,
6/
100, 000 posts on weight to carry ........yet they still they ask mate.

Keep well Lady K , your comments make common sence
 
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Thornley said:
You and any dutch mates will get on well ,
They advised/told/ordered me ....sandals and get good NZ woollen socks in ...... 2008
Is it that far away from you to buy ............they asked
Click to expand...

I'm a big fan of smartwool socks. We can get them here, and they don't cost any more than they do elsewhere. But since I'm actually half Kiwi, I think I have pretty good NZ connections
 
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SeattleWoman said:
How steep are the declines on the CF? Are hiking shoes necessary or are tennis shoes ok? Are walking poles necessary?
Thanks!!
Click to expand...
Poles and runners are perfect go slow at first and the pace will come with fitness, you will be amazed at the calf muscles you develop
 
SeattleWoman said:
How steep are the declines on the CF? Are hiking shoes necessary or are tennis shoes ok? Are walking poles necessary?
Thanks!!
Click to expand...
Walking poles with lots of practice :yes or a singular staff.
Tennis shoes would wear out usually
 
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