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Starting at French border instead of SJPP?

Richard Ward

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Time of past OR future Camino
Future: April 2024; Past: Frances, Norte, Madrid.
I realize it is traditional for many non-Spaniards to start in SJPP, but do some start at the French border via a round-trip from Roncesvalles? I think you would get most of the views, without the hassle/expense of trying to get to SJPP, plus you would avoid about 800 m of vertical climb. I think the trip may also be safer in some regards, as you can see what you are getting into, and can just retreat if conditions get bad.

Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. If I do this, my preferences would be to:

1) Stash most of my pack somewhere in Roncesvalles for the daytrip (does anyone watch packs?)
2) Hike a different route up than back, preferably steeper up, and less steep back (suggested trails?)
3) While I am very used to hiking alone (e.g., 2000+ miles of the Appalachian Trail), company would be welcome, likely on April 23rd.

Thanks!
 
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As you'll know there are two options to go from SJPP to Roncesvalles what means two different border crossings.

On the route that goes through Valcarlos (aka Luzaide), Arnéguy is the last town on the French side (on the Spanish side Pekotxeta is next to Arnéguy, on the other side of the river).

On the other route (aka the Napoleón route), you enter in Spain at the Bentarte Pass. It seems to me this is the route you plan to make. I don't know of a circular route departing and arriving to Roncesvalles and passing through Bentarte pass but there's a circular route departing and arriving to Roncesvalles and passing through Lepoeder pass (more info and details available, for example, at http://senderosderoncesvalles.blogspot.com/2010/05/ruta-6-collado-de-lepoeder-por-el.html). Lepoeder pass is something like 4 kms from Bentarte pass so you could could go from Lepoeder pass to Bentarte pass (and back) as a detour.
 
Yes, I was thinking about that loop, but then from Lepoeder pass I would hike (less than 10 km, relatively flat) round trip to the Roland fountain and the French border (via at least the Bentarte pass, but if there is a loop trail, I would possibly take it). I think that would involve going up the steep GRT7 to Lepoeder, joining up with GR12 to hike to French border, hopefully getting snacks from the man there, then turning around and taking GR12 back to Roncesvalles via the Ibaneta pass. Total distance would be 18 km. Pretty much the same distance as dayhiking Katadhin in Maine, but with much less than half the elevation gain. Hopefully as rewarding of a hike as well!
 
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An interesting idea. It seems to me that it would be quite possible, even if it would be rather unusual for most forum members. Perhaps you need to be asking this where there are more likely to be outdoors enthusiasts who might have done this rather than trying to get information from the Camino oriented members of this forum.
 
Once in Roncesvalles, order a taxi and get it to drop you off at or near the Spanish border and start you walk from there back to Roncesvalles
 
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Mark Lee said:
Sounds like a lot of hassle to avoid a few kilometers over the Pyrenees.
You can get a bus to SJPDP from Pamplona. If you want to avoid the steepness of the Napoleon route, just take the ValCarlos. It's a nice walk.
Click to expand...

Valcarlos was my original plan Mark. But I want to do the Napoleon Route for the views, and there is a danger that it will be closed on the 23rd. I'm just throwing out the option of starting in Ronce, and still getting to hike "all the way" across Spain (assuming an ocean finish). There is some precedent for this on the Appalachian Trail -- one has to hike up a mountain (Springer in Georgia, Katahdin in Maine) to actually start the trail. It seems natural for me to do that as well on the Camino, though I am guessing now it is almost never done. I thought about the taxi idea, but since there is a reasonable loop that gets you part of the way to the French border, you can have "fun" in both directions. But HYOH/HYOC I guess.
 
Never did the AT, but did some backpacking in my younger days and days and nights with a ruck on in the military. I think you will quickly discover that the Camino Frances is really not a hike. More of a walk with a backpack on. You do so much of the walking on improved and semi-improved surfaces and crash in a warm bed every night. I never approached it the same way I did a hike.
One of the reasons I tout the whole SJPdP start thing is because I liked starting there so much. Really cool those first steps out of the town.
 

Hi Richard. An interesting idea, though I'm not sure I see the point. Sorry.... Is Roncesvalles any less hassle to get to than SJPDP?

The hike UP From Roncesvalles to the fountain is not exactly flat! Sure it would be a very pleasant walk with some great views.

But I wonder if you might regret not starting in SJPDP? It's really quite a special place and that hike UP, whilst somewhat strenuous, I found for me, to be a great start to my Camino in so many ways...

You could skip some of it of course. By using the 'Mountain Shuttle'. Caroline provides a great service and speaks excellent English, amongst other languages. (I think she pronounces her name Caroleena)

This would give you many options. Walk part way and get picked up. get taken up part way to a start point. Many options..... Just look at the map on her site.
http://www.expressbourricot.com/persons-transport/

Personally...........and only with the experience of doing it once..........so far.

If you wanted to cut some of the uphill, I would walk the first section up as far as Orrisson. Sure it's steep, but you will meet loads of people along the way. Get a sense of 'starting out' with other Pilgrims, and also get to have lunch with some of them at Orrisson.

You could then get picked up and go back down, to be taken back up the next day to a selected start point. Or ...Stay at Orrisson .

Or........Get a lift up the mountain and 'start' at Orrisson on Day 1?

Lots of options.

The loop' idea you have would certainly 'work'. Just not sure why you would do it to be honest..... Seems a bit pointless

Is it the perceived physical effort that concerns you, or travelling to SJPDP?

Are you perhaps 'over thinking' this
 
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It's mainly the weather Robo. Temperatures on the 23rd and/or 24th at altitude will likely drop down below freezing, and rain/sleet/snow/ice is predicted. I want the views of the "top" of the Pyrenees, but am not confident that they will be worth risking the Napoleon Route from SJPP. I've been in some ugly situations with temperatures well below 10 C, high winds, and possible wet/icy conditions near dark -- for example Mt. (me not so) Smart and Wildcat Mt. in New Hampshire, both of which where I was 700 meters above the section hike's end and I had less than 2 hours of daylight remaining. Orisson is an option, but the pass may be closed the next day (especially since the low for Roncesvalles is projected to be zero Celsius), and that would cost me a day out of the 35 I have to finish. I'd rather spend one of those days as an off day drinking wine in Rioja, instead of trekking down to a socked-in Valcarlos route.

If I go to SJPP, I also arrive pretty late (and jetlagged from an overnight flight into Madrid + the 3 hr train to Pamplona). I can get into Roncesvalles a little bit earlier (and 16 Euro cheaper) than SJPP. Because Roncesvalles is closer (distance and altitude) to the local "top" of the Pyrenees, it presents a better chance to get there at a reasonable hour which minimizes the risk of being in wet/cold high on a mountain late in the evening.

Again the thought is, if the weather on April 23rd looks to be possibly decent, I could scramble up to the French border from Roncesvalles, and return to Roncesvalles the same day. As an FYI, you meet A LOT of hikers/pilgrims hiking counter to the normal flow -- one day hiking near the southern terminus of the Appalachian Trail I counted well over 100 hikers when hiking against the flow, while a normal day hiking in the direction of the pack I would often see zero hikers.

If the weather looks really bad on April 23rd, then, I would start my Camino going west from Roncesvalles, like most Spanish doing their Camino.

One way to look at it is that I am proposing a 1 day "peakbagging"-type hike, and then starting my Camino from Roncesvalles, hopefully with Pilgrims I met on the mountain the day before. I'm surprised that this hasn't been done before by a forum member, but anyway, I have been one that very much believes in HYOH.

And yes I do tend to overthink things, but only the start of this one. I'm just going to go with what feels good/right after the first day.

Hope to see you in SdC in May, and Buen Camino!
 

You've obviously thought this through

Though your comments I quoted above, would indicate you are maybe treating this as just another hike. Which is fine of course.

Most (well Many) of the people on this Forum are probably not 'hikers' in the traditional sense, maybe that's why they (like I) couldn't see the logic of going 'against the flow'. A major part of walking the Camino many people feel, is connecting with people along the way. Some that you might walk with for weeks. Bit hard to do if going against the flow. It's a journey, rather than a hike...

Difference between a Pilgrim and a Hiker perhaps

As a 'Hiker', wanting to catch the views, what you are suggesting makes perfect sense!

Buen Camino.

Maybe you will end a Pilgrim rather than a Hiker, or something in between...

Note! My intention is not to hijack this thread into a debate of Hikers v Pilgrims

Or.....to try to tell someone how to walk the Camino
 
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Oh no, definitely not treating this Camino like a hike, but the inherent danger in the SJPP to Roncesvalles in April makes me treat THAT section like a hike. IF I go this route, I am thinking that I won't really start my Camino until I get to the French border, then walk down to Roncesvalles as a pilgrim, get my credential, go to the Pilgrim's Mass on Saturday night (it "counts"), sleep in the albergue, wake up (if I get to sleep that is...) and continue to walk as a pilgrim.

As an aside, the comparable Appalachian Trail forum has similar debates -- e.g., thru-hikers vs. section hikers & hike the eight-mile Springer Mountain Access Trail vs. getting driven to Springer Mountain to start the trail -- but the debate is quite a bit more salty. I'm glad that this forum is much more friendly -- which is what I would expect from a Pilgrimage site vs. a hiking site.
 
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EXPRESS BOURRICOT - Transport
Transport luggage-passengers.
From airports to SJPP
Luggage from SJPP to Roncevalles
Richard Ward said:
. I'm glad that this forum is much more friendly -- which is what I would expect from a Pilgrimage site vs. a hiking site.
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Good man

Buen Camino. This will be unlike any 'Hike' you have ever undertaken. I hope

We start again in a week
 

Sorry I can't resist

IF you start at SJPDP. You will 'feel' like a Pilgrim from the moment you arrive The town is full of them!

I started there last year on 28 April and the town was 'Pilgrim Central'. Met my first Camino buddies over dinner that night.... Whom I kept meeting over the next 5 weeks....

It was a cool crossing. In mote ways than one. Some snow still on the ground. So do watch the weather reports and abide by the advice of the Pilgrims Office.
 
Hi Katharina. I have looked at that shuttle -- http://www.expressbourricot.com/persons-transport/ (15 Euro to Croix Thibault) -- but my main issue is the weather. I could get up there and be pretty much alone, in unfamiliar territory, and in horrible conditions (weather at 200 m does not equal weather at 1200 m) -- a jarring start to a very long journey.

I was planning on taking the steep route up -- I think that would involve going up the steep GRT7 to Lepoeder, joining up with GR12 to hike to French border, hopefully getting snacks from the man there, then turning around and taking GR12 back to Roncesvalles via the Ibaneta pass. Total distance would be 18 km.

But maybe the weather forecast will be great, I can get a taxi share from Pamplona to SJPP in the early afternoon on the 22nd, and can then take the Napoleon route on the 23rd after sleeping off my jetlag.

Thanks for all of the tips, especially the weather links!
 
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Just a thought Richard. Going against the flow, you will be very much more alone. All the Pilgrims will be making their way up from SJPDP and won't get to the top till late morning.

Whereas coming up from the French side, you'll have about 200+ close friends..... I estimated the day I left SJPDP there must have been 300 Pilgrims setting off. same time of year as you.

That's the really cool thing about the Camino. You can kind of be alone. Without being alone.

What ever you decide......I'm sure it will be right for you....and you'll have a great time!

Here are some short videos that will give you an idea of the terrain.

Looking down towards Roncesvalles: http://robscamino.com/routes-to-roncesvalles/ Shows the alternative route on the road.
Talking about the 'illusion' of Isolation: 2nd video down on the page (called Isolation): http://robscamino.com/29th-of-april/
Views near the top: http://robscamino.com/the-rhythm-of-the-walk/
 
I went through your blog earlier Robo, and it was really helpful -- I figured I would be that lone person in the back like you because of a late, jetlagged start. I really hope that April 23 on a cold/wet week would not be 300 Pilgrims per day from St Jean -- if so, the alberques will be quite full after adding in the Spaniards from Roncesvalles, and I really should bring my tent.

But maybe you were getting a lot people basing themselves in St Jean for the 2 day walk into Roncesvalles using shuttles like you. I hope so anyway.
 
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Welcome to the forum Richard. Whatever route you decide, I wish you Buen Camino. Be careful not to tire yourself by over thinking the routes. I would not have missed starting from StJPdP, especially because it was my first time. Of course the route is not 'a walk in the park' but definitely doable. I timed it so that I could arrive in Santiago for my 80th birthday.
 
Perhaps I am not remembering correctly, but I think most of the spectacular views occurred before the border pass on the Napoleon route.

Also, my Camino family was formed from my first night is SJPP and then our 2nd night at Orrison. It was most certainly worth the extra trouble getting to the French side and up/over the mountain. There is an energy and a focus on "the beginning" in those two points that I did not find replicated in other stops along the Camino. It made a huge difference for me.

Although it took me while to get back to this feeling, I would start at SJPP again.

Buen Camino @Richard Ward !
 
I think you are trying to parse the wheat from the chaff because in real time the distances you wish to walk or don't wish to walk are very insignificant compared to what is ahead of you walking to Santiago. Orrison has got some great views of the Pyrenees and so does Pepito Grillo in Canfranc Estacion. You are going to climb several mountain passes on the Camino on your way to Santiago with equally great views. Come back later and explore the GR 10 from Henday to Perpignan.
 
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I think your plan is feasible, and it has the virtue of many "sub-options". I think that you can register in Roncesvalles albergue, let there most of your things, then go for your walk. Just out of a safety concern, I' d comment my plans to hospitaleros.
You have considered bad weather, but fog may be a factor early in the morning, because signposts may not be so evident and you will be walking alone. I just uploaded a photo about, precisely, fog over the Saint Jean Pied de Port valley. That is the other side of the stage, evidently, but the environment is similar.
About views... it probably depends on the person, but I agree with @nomadpeah . The far reaching, long distance landscapes are mostly before Bentartea pass. After that, is mostly a pleasant forest walk, with some occasional nice views over the mountains on the Valcarlos side.
Anyway you choose, buen camino!
 
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Thanks for the link! I just mentioned Katahdin because it is a terminus, is actually the only climb on the Appalachian Trail that is longer than the climb from SJPdP, and is a similar altitude above the surrounding terrain. It is a "climb" though, and not really a walk -- I was pretty terrified coming down a different trail than I came up -- it felt like I was ready to jump off a high dive at one point!
 
Robo said:
Sorry I can't resist

IF you start at SJPDP. You will 'feel' like a Pilgrim from the moment you arrive The town is full of them!
.
Click to expand...
If you start in Roncesvalles, you will also feel like a Pilgrim as the town is also full of them!
I'm one of the very few Forum members who has never ever considered starting inSJPP. We have started 3 times in Roncesvalles and once in Jaca, plus other shorter routes.
Apart from the fact that the first time, we didn't even know that SJPP could be a starting point, I do consider my long journey added to the 8 hour time difference ( not to mention age)! Frankly, I have no need to ruin a nearly 6 week Pilgrimage, by overdoing it on the first couple of days out. When I did my first research on Internet, only Roncesvalles came up!
Perhaps I should mention, that having lived straddled a cross the Swiss/ Italian border for many years, there is no thrill walking from one country to another and the hiking trails around where we lived were superb.....great views, crossing borders, etc. all in a days hike.
Anyway, as far as leaving your backpack in Roncesvalles, all you have to do is check in and leave your pack there.
You will have chance to meet up with people also from your first day in Roncesvalles.
Enjoy your Camino!
 
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Not much to look at after you cross into Spain on that day. If beautiful views are your thing, don't miss them by not starting in SJPP.
 

You might consider hiking the Camino Vasco del Interior from Hendaye and Irun. You cross the Puente de Santiago at the border. Then you walk to Camino Frances at Santo Domingo. There is public transport that gets you much closer than it does at Roncesvalles.
 
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Richard Ward said:
A lot of SJPP fans here. I'm starting there if weather is OK (and it looks like it might be improving). Fingers crossed.
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You will love it. I never understand those who suggest starting in Roncesvalles. You get to walk into Spain, experience gorgeous views, cross a whole country, share that challenge with people who will keep bumping into. Knowing I could walk that stretch gave me a lot of satisfaction and whenevwr I wanted to "cheat" further on I would just remind myself of having been able to walk that day so I knew I could walk anything else. Enjoy it, but only if it is safe.
 
Richard Ward said:
A lot of SJPP fans here. I'm starting there if weather is OK (and it looks like it might be improving). Fingers crossed.
Click to expand...

Just a comment that if it isn't safe to walk from St Jean, it likely won't be safe to walk back up the other way from Roncesvalles either, not if you're aiming for the top of the pass. Same mountain after all (well, foothill!) - different sides of the same mountain can have different weather of course, but if you're planning on heading up to where the border is, you'll be affected by whatever weather might cause St Jean locals to warn pilgrims away from the Route Napoleon. And of course it's potentially less likely that you'll hear the kind of warnings given out to pilgrims in St Jean, too, so be sure to ask the local view in Roncesvalles (not just going by weather reports). But you're obviously an experienced hiker so you'll know all that already! Buen camino whatever you decide - you have a wonderful experience to look forward to!
 
annakappa said:
If you start in Roncesvalles, you will also feel like a Pilgrim as the town is also full of them!
Click to expand...

Quite right Anna. I was not implying otherwise

Just stressing to Richard that SJPDP is a Pilgrim town too. Not a waste of time....
 
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I will say, starting at SJPP was difficult. For a while after and during the remainder of my Camino, I thought it was an unnecessary difficulty. Richard you sound like more of a hiker than I was, and will have an easier time. I do believe that wherever one chooses to start his or her Camino means he or she is walking their own Camino. Skipping SJPP is not cheating. But the views were fantastic (as we had good weather going up) and I was quite proud of myself.

My comments were more about the community I found. We made the mistake of starting on April 29 and bumped into a holiday weekend. The alburges from Roncevalles to Pamplona were absolutely packed the first 5 or 6 days. I was thankful to have started my first night in SJPP at the Beilari and my second night in Orrison. It made a huge impact on the experience because of the people I met. Once we hit the crowds (completo alburges) and really heavy rain headed down the mountain, I was really happy to have familiar faces around.

Good luck with the weather and the route you choose!
 
Richard Ward said:
A lot of SJPP fans here. I'm starting there if weather is OK (and it looks like it might be improving). Fingers crossed.
Click to expand...
Wonderful!! having now made your decision will take a load off. Be sure to check in at the Pilgrim Office in St. Jean. As others have said, they can apprise you of the weather conditions, give you help with accommodations and answer any questions. You will discover a whole family of friends in St. Jean….and will stay in contact with them along the way, depending on everyones walking pace. I envy you…..I need to wait until 2017 to return. Again, Buean Camino Richard.
 
Hola Richard, you certainly have sparked much discussion. In view of your original comments, I had a look at Google Earth and there seem to be a lot of trails in the hills around Roncesvalles. It would be nice to spend a few days walking the hills. The Tourism Office in Roncesvalles may have some local area maps and suggestions to guide you on a day loop.
http://www.turismo.navarra.es/esp/o...o/3269/oficina-de-turismo-de-roncesvalles.htm Their website is in Spanish, but hopefully they are helpful for you.
Hopefully the sun will shine for you on friday
Buen camino
 
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@Pat Kenny is right. There are many circular paths in Roncesvalles (take note that the Basque name is "Orreaga", it could appear like that, sometimes). The webpage of the Colegiata (uhmm....the monastery, in short) presents many of them (in English), with schematic maps. I walked a bit of one, the Camino del Canonigo, and it was nice and signposted. Actually, your plan is already included (see "Lepoeder").
 
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Thanks again for all of your replies. While I haven't made a final decision yet, I certainly have enough information to make a decision when I get to Pamplona on Friday. Right now, the forecast for Saturday is OK (about 5 C, overcast, no snow, just a little rain), but some snow might return on Sunday (lows go to -2 C, snow/rain mix).

https://www.meteoblue.com/en/weather/forecast/week/col-de-bentarte_spain_3128263

So at this point, if I go from SJPP, I would leave at dawn, and walk it in one day. I'd love to do the Beilari/Orrison start, but that I would want conditions on Sunday to improve first. It they don't, I really hope I can get a taxi share in Pamplona so I can arrive early to SJPP and get a good night's sleep!
 
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For what it's worth, that walk from SJPP (while exhausting) was the MOST beautiful part of the entire Camino, in my opinion. The hike up to O Cebreiro was almost as beautiful, but that first day...truly mesmerizing <3
(If, of course, you have decent weather!)
 
Just pitching in with my solution - I am staying in SJPdP the night before I start. I have then booked the shuttle up the mountain to La Vierge. I will than walk from there to Roncesvalles. This is mainly due to my fitness and weight - I do not wish to ruin myself on the first day. I hope that this ends up being a good solution for me.
 
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If you are doing the Camino de Santiago- French Route , then start at St. Jean Pied de Port. It adds something very special to the experience REGARDLESS of the reasons for your walking it. You will walk many hiking routes in your life, but there is only ONE Camino de Santiago- French Route. Do it justice.

Buen Camino!!!
 
I find yr.no the most reliable long term (and short) weather forecast. It even manages to predict the Irish weather correctly - most of the time.
 
If you are fit and willing I think the start in SJPP is worth the hassle, though a lot of people starting off in SJPP complain about picking up injuries over the first arduous day, it is tough going but worth it if you are fit enough. Good luck. Pat
 
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Pat Kenny said:
Given the diverse views Richard, I would like to see a post about your first day
Buen comino
Click to expand...
I'm going to give a brief report as I am a bit rundown after 3 fun days of hiking and 2 nearly sleepless nights.

Weather conditions on Saturday morning were nearly perfect for traversing the Napoleon route in my view, not too hot, and just enough clouds to keep views mystical while not obscuring things too much. I took things very easy going up, started at 7:15 and and finished major climb at the Virgin at around 11:15, where I took about 20 minutes to rest and eat a tasty 5 Euro Ham and Cheese sandwich from Orisson. Rest of climb was uneventful with continued great views. I continued to take things easy, yet began to bonk a bit at around the cross. The final climb to the Spanish border was pretty slow for me -- I probably should have eaten more to keep energy levels up. At 1300-1400 m elevation, cloud cover was very substantial, and as a result the views were pretty boring until descending below 1200 meters. Rain/wind started at around 2 pm, i.e., at the emergency shelter. I almost missed the alternative to the forest trail as Camino signs were clearly directed to forest trail, and only a few rough and missable signs indicated the presence of the alternative. The alternative was uneventful, and mainly easy, especially because I stuck primarily to wet roads instead of wet and muddy grass portions. I finished at about 4 pm, giving me enough time to find my bunk, take shower, and make it to the 6 pm mass. Skipping the pilgrims menu and instead eating from the 16 Euro menu at the hotel restaurant was a seemingly great decision based on reports from others. I did not sleep well until about 430 am, which not so coincidentally is my corresponding normal bed time in the USA.

Sunday was comically slow in the rain, as many passed the low energy hiker from the US.... Things cleared up later in the day, allowing for more opportunities to meet others. I did have a silly fall on the descent to Zubiri which tweaked my back a bit, and perhaps opened a chafing wound, giving the appearance to some that I obtained a more serious injury based on the presence of some blood on my hiking pants. I stopped at Zubiri, and had an OK dinner, great conversations, and another almost sleepless night.

Today was cool to warm with mostly sunny skies. I set a fast pace at the beginning, but slowed down after hiking with Hollywood Tony for a few hours. Checked into a cheap room in an otherwise expensive Pamplona hotel to hopefully let chafing injuries dry out, and get some much needed sleep. Going to go to the Cathedral tomorrow morning, so staying on schedule might be difficult, as reaching "the bridge" is already a long day.

In hindsight, the alternative hike would have been fine, but I'm glad I made the hike from SJPP. That being said, I got by relatively well because of decent weather and hiking experience, not because of good conditioning (my steps walked for April graph is pretty hilarious now). For those without much experience AND conditioning, I suggest starting at Orisson at the same time that group sets off, as long as weather conditions permit traversing the Napoleon Route.

Buen Camino to those still planning and (hopefully) good night!
 
Definitely do-able...but heres the rub. The first day of the Camino over the Pyrenees is one of self confirmation and you would be missing the joy of sharing the excitement of those people who are not hikers per se. The conversation at the communal dinner at the hotel will be based on that excitement. Last time I did the CF I was forced to start in Pamplona by my airlines' inability to deliver me and my backpack in the same week. I missed the thrill of the challenge and the sense of accomplishment provided by the Pyrenees Crossing. Just sayin.
 
... well thinking back there are certainly mountain roads that go up there... I don't really see the point unless your health is in question as it's not really that bad, especially if you stop at Orisson.
 
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