Spiritual, Religious, or ??

[Anniesantiago]

In the past, when getting my Credential, I was asked why I was walking.
If for spiritual or religious reasons, I could get a Compostela.
If just walking for the heck of it, I could get a pretty piece of paper saying I'd completed the pilgrimage.
Some of my Credentials even have a space for the answer to that question.
But I notice this new Credential does not have that question.
Do they no longer ask if you are walking for religious reasons?
Or is it still a requirement?

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

In the past, when getting my Credential, I was asked why I was walking.
If for spiritual or religious reasons, I could get a Compostela.
If just walking for the heck of it, I could get a pretty piece of paper saying I'd completed the pilgrimage.
Some of my Credentials even have a space for the answer to that question.
But I notice this new Credential does not have that question.
Do they no longer ask if you are walking for religious reasons?
Or is it still a requirement?

Hello Annie ,
There is a difference now

• Make the pilgrimage for religious or spiritual reasons, or at least an attitude of search.

Take care and be safe

 

[lt56ny]

Hello Annie ,
There is a difference now

• Make the pilgrimage for religious or spiritual reasons, or at least an attitude of search.

Take care and be safe

If that is the new description I personally love it!
Thanks

 

[MaryEllen]

I received mine this morning and checked the box, but was disappointed there was no conversation about it, or anything actually.

 

[Kathor1]

May I suggest that you state which organisation issued your credential, and when.

As far as I know and/or vaguely remember, the text of the credentials are not identical. I also have Fernando Lalanda's booklet about the History of the Credential and had a quick look. In particular, the passage of text that says that the credencial (yes, it is about the credencial and not yet about the Compostela) is only for those who make the pilgrimage with a Christian sentiment, even if it is only with an attitude of search / con sentido cristiano, aunque sólo sea en actitud de búsqueda / avec un sentiment chrétien, même en attitude de recherche seulement, and that the holder accepts this condition is nothing new. It had been printed in credentials issued in Spanish and in French for decades. This line may be missing in credentials designed and issued by national pilgrims associations established in other countries.

I received my first credential many many years ago. It was issued by a French pilgrims association and it contained already this text in French. I must admit that I had not paid much attention to it, I noticed it only several years later when there was a discussion about it on the forum. People who don't speak French or Spanish and receive their credential from the pilgrims office in SJPP or Ivar's shop may never notice it.

 

[Kathor1]

Here is quote from a thread in 2016: Credenciales issued by national camino groups (the Confraternity [UK], CCoP [Canada], AQC [Canada?], APOC [USA] etc) generally have no mention of specific motivations.

Note that the 2016 thread got closed. So don't venture too far into how you may feel about the texts but stick to text comparison and credential history.

 

[Tincatinker]

I walk my caminos always "in an attitude of search", why else would I. Beware of conflation: the credencial which grants the pilgrim the privilege of access to Albergues and some other benefits (discounted or free access to "tourist" attractions) is not the same beast as the Compostella, the award of which is subject to the rules of the Diocese and the PO.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I received mine this morning and checked the box, but was disappointed there was no conversation about it, or anything actually.

You received your Credential? Or your Compostela?
When you arrive in Santiago, you will get a Compostela instead of a pretty paper saying you walked.

 

[Anniesantiago]

May I suggest that you state which organisation issued your credential, and when.

As far as I know and/or vaguely remember, the text of the credentials are not identical. I also have Fernando Lalanda's booklet about the History of the Credential and had a quick look. In particular, the passage of text that says that the credencial (yes, it is about the credencial and not yet about the Compostela) is only for those who make the pilgrimage with a Christian sentiment, even if it is only with an attitude of search / con sentido cristiano, aunque sólo sea en actitud de búsqueda / avec un sentiment chrétien, même en attitude de recherche seulement, and that the holder accepts this condition is nothing new. It had been printed in credentials issued in Spanish and in French for decades. This line may be missing in credentials designed and issued by national pilgrims associations established in other countries.

I received my first credential many many years ago. It was issued by a French pilgrims association and it contained already this text in French. I must admit that I had not paid much attention to it, I noticed it only several years later when there was a discussion about it on the forum. People who don't speak French or Spanish and receive their credential from the pilgrims office in SJPP or Ivar's shop may never notice it.

I've got about 20 Credentials and only a few of them ask the question.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Interesting. The last time I volunteered at the pilgrim office in Santiago, about three years ago, it was pointed out by Maria, the manager of the office, that there are certain requirements by the church that a credential must meet. Any organization may print a credential but for it to be officially recognized and qualifying for the issue of a Compostela, it must contain certain textual content.
I have in my hand a credential issued by the cathedral DeSantiago. It makes no reference or question as to why the pilgrim is making the pilgrimage. When a pilgrim checks into the pilgrim office they are asked why they made the journey and they are to choose one of three answers. Religious, spiritual, or other (cultural, sport, or tourism). The pilgrims answer is recorded in the church database and it determines what certificate is issued by the church. The Campostella would be issued for those choosing religious reasons and possibly (my memory fails me) spiritual reasons. A certificate of completion with, or without mileage is available for those who do not meet the requirements for receiving the Compostela. Only the Catholic Church of Santiago can issue a Compostela for completing the Camino de Santiago. Other churches may issue commemorative or souvenir certificates.
This is not “official“ information. I am only trying to offer some insight from my experience as a volunteer in the office.

 

[Kathor1]

I have in my hand a credential issued by the cathedral DeSantiago. It makes no reference or question as to why the pilgrim is making the pilgrimage.

Are you sure? The credencial issued by the Cathedral, the one that can be ordered on the forum shop and that is shown on the Oficina del Peregrino's website, does have such a reference - unless my Spanish is so poor that I misunderstand the text? As I said already, I think that many people are not aware of it, and for all practical purposes it doesn't matter.

 

[Kathor1]

When a pilgrim checks into the pilgrim office they are asked why they made the journey and they are to choose one of three answers. Religious, spiritual, or other (cultural, sport, or tourism).

Currently, the choice is between religious; religious and other; not religious. No spiritual.

You can see the three categories on the statistics page of the Oficina del Peregrino and on the questionnaire/form that pilgrims have to fill in for the Compostela and that can now be done online, see here: https://catedral.df-server.info/agencias/Individuo.aspx?lang=5 - Drop down menu for Reasons for pilgrimage.

 

[Flog]

At the pilgrims office you are asked to fill out some details onto a sheet, some of which (not your personal details) are later added to the database for the cathedral's statistics. If you want a compostela you will need to check either the religious or spiritual boxes, if you check only the 'other' box will get the welcome certificate instead. You can check any or all of the boxes as they apply to you. This may or may not be mentioned to you so it's good to know. Some volunteers may point it out, some won't..

Edit: I've only ever seen the means of conveyance choice options on any credencial, but never the reasons options ...

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Are you sure? The credencial issued by the Cathedral, the one that can be ordered on the forum shop and that is shown on the Oficina del Peregrino's website, does have such a reference - unless my Spanish is so poor that I misunderstand the text? As I said already, I think that many people are not aware of it, and for all practical purposes it doesn't matter.

View attachment 105579

Thank you for your reply and helping me to clarify. Sorry, I tend to be too wordy. Therefore, going back to the original post, my short answer should have been as follows.
No, you are not asked why you’re walking the Camino on the credential. There is no box to check to identify your purpose. They only clarify the requirements for obtaining the Compostela. When you arrive at the pilgrim office you will be asked why you walked the Camino. They will then review your credential and determine whether or not you are eligible to receive a Compostela. I hope that helps. Again, sorry for the confusion.

 

[Kathor1]

I've got about 20 Credentials and only a few of them ask the question.

I'd be interested to know who issued the credentials where you can indicate your motive for the pilgrimage. Where they issued by APOC or the Confraternity from the UK?

As I said, I have Fernando Lalanda's Historia de la Credencial but he deals mainly with the credentials issued by the Santiago Cathedral and with the struggles between the Spanish Camino associations and the Cathedral about who has the monopoly for designing and issuing credentials. And it looks like the Cathedral won.

Lalanda describes eight different designs of the Spanish credentials, ranging from around the 1980s until today, but nowhere do I see an option in the description of these credential versions where the pilgrim can indicate their motives in the credential. Hence my question about credentials issued by international Camino associations.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Well, let me look, some are packed up - these are the ones in which I see nothing about WHY I'm walking:

2006 - American Pilgrims on the Camino
Via de la plata 2009 - got my Credential in Sevilla at the Ayuntamiento de Sevilla
2009 - Continuation at the Monasterio de Samos
2012 - SJPP Pilgrim Office
For the 2014 Camino Madrid, I got a continuation Credential at the Church at O Cebreiro.
2014 - Iglesia Parroquial de Santiago y San Juan Bautista in Madrid
2016 - Catedral a Malaga
2019 - Les Amis de Chemins in Toulouse France

The rest do mention the reason.

 

[Kathor1]

The rest do mention the reason.

You've got quite a collection of different credentials there.

In late 2015, the Cabildo of the Santiago Cathedral made it officially known that they will in future refuse Spanish credentials that did not conform with their own model. There was even a tiff between Santiago and the diocese of Lugo about this. Santiago also informed the international pilgrims associations - they had to submit their models to make sure that their pilgrims' credentials were accepted in Santiago if people wanted a Compostela.

I've googled around a bit but so far I've not yet seen an image of a page in a credential where you can indicate your motive.

 

[David Tallan]

In the past, when getting my Credential, I was asked why I was walking.
If for spiritual or religious reasons, I could get a Compostela.
If just walking for the heck of it, I could get a pretty piece of paper saying I'd completed the pilgrimage.
Some of my Credentials even have a space for the answer to that question.
But I notice this new Credential does not have that question.
Do they no longer ask if you are walking for religious reasons?
Or is it still a requirement?

Perhaps they have begun to realize that, for many of us, when we begin the Camino and first fill in our credencial, we don't really know why we are walking. Or the answer we give at the beginning is not the answer that is true at the end. So they save the question for the end of the Camino when they need the information to determine who gets the Compostela. Some people still may not know then, but they can't wait any longer for them to figure it out.

 

[Flog]

Some people still may not know then, but they can't wait any longer for them to figure it out.

Indeed....
Some have trouble right up at the desk trying to figure out which box should apply to them..

 

[Kathor1]

I had a look at the photos in this thread Post a picture of your credential! but I still couldn't see a page where you could tick the reason for your pilgrimage. If someone could post a photo of that, it would be helpful.

@David Tallan posted the photo of the credential that he had been given in 1989. The credential had not yet become a means of collecting stamps; it served to document that you had started your pilgrimage somewhere and had ended it in Santiago. I guess that there were no questions about the purpose of the pilgrimage then, no choice of motives ... or the Cathedral as an institution did not want to admit and did not want to contemplate the fact that there were major non-religious reasons for walking to Santiago?

 

[David Tallan]

I had a look at the photos in this thread Post a picture of your credential! but I still couldn't see a page where you could tick the reason for your pilgrimage. If someone could post a photo of that, it would be helpful.

@David Tallan posted the photo of the credential that he had been given in 1989. The credential had not yet become a means of collecting stamps; it served to document that you had started your pilgrimage somewhere and had ended it in Santiago. I guess that there were no questions about the purpose of the pilgrimage then, no choice of motives ... or the Cathedral as an institution did not want to admit and did not want to contemplate the fact that there were major non-religious reasons for walking to Santiago?

Actually, that credencial was intended to collect stamps. They just weren't on the front. It was made from cardstock and folded once, with spots on the inside for stamps from: Viscarret, Pamplona, Puente la Reina, Estella, Logroño, Najera, Santo Domingo de la Calzada, San Juan de Ortega, Burgos, Fromista, Villacazar de Sirga, Sahagun, Leon, Astorga, Rabanal del Camino, and Ponferrada. On the back, there were further spaces for stamps from Villafranca del Bierzo, Cebreiro, Triacastela, Sarria, Portomarin, and Palas de Rey, as well as some closing text that instructs the pilgrim to present the credencial at the end of the Camino to receive the Compostela (then called a Compostelana).

Interestingly, there was no space at the end for a stamp from Santiago de Compostela (although there is a spot on the cover, as depicted above, to write in the date of arrival in Santiago and the completion of the pilgrimage).

In terms of motivation, it doesn't speak specifically to religious or spiritual motivation but rather motivation of Pilgrimage, which is documented by the Compostela, if I am reading the Spanish correctly:

Con la presente credencial que se expide en Roncesvalles y en Jaca, y eventualmente en algún punto del Camino, podrá solicitarse la "Compostelana" en la venerable y Apostólica Iglesia Metropolitana de Santiago como documento auténtico de visita a este sacratísimo Templo por motivo de Peregrinación.

 

[Annet2020]

I always read that you had to fill in a form (on paper) at the Pelgrims Office to obtain a Compostella. They would ask for your reasons to walk and the three options where something like: religious, spiritual and other reasons. You would get a Compostella if you walked for religious or spiritual reasons, and some other certificate if you filled in other reasons

Now they have a digital form and the options are non-religious, religious and religious&other. There's no 'spiritual' option anymore. I suppose you can choose religious&other now and get a Compostella?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I always read that you had to fill in a form (on paper) at the Pelgrims Office to obtain a Compostella. They would ask for your reasons to walk and the three options where something like: religious, spiritual and other reasons. You would get a Compostella if you walked for religious or spiritual reasons, ans some other certificate if you filled in other reasons

Now they have a digital form and the options are non-religious, religious and religious&other. There's no 'spiritual' option anymore. I suppose you can choose religious&other now and get a Compostella?

Your supposition is correct. I am volunteering in the Pilgrim Office as I write this.

 

[Annet2020]

Your supposition is correct. I am volunteering in the Pilgrim Office as I write this.

Thank you!

 

[Kanga]

This is the wording, Google translated, that appears on the Compostela (copied from the Cathedral website)

The Chapter of this Holy Apostolic and Metropolitan Church Cathedral Compostela custodian of the seal of the Altar of Santiago Apóstol, to all Faithful and pilgrims who arrive from anywhere in the Orb of the Earth with an attitude of devotion or because of a vow or promise to pilgrimage to the Tomb of the Apostle, Our Patron and Protector of Spains, accredits to all who observe this document that:
... (name inserted here)
has visited this most sacred temple devoutly and with a Christian sense after having made both on foot and on horseback the last hundred kilometers or by bicycle the last two hundred with a Christian sense (pietatis causa).

In witness whereof I give you this document endorsed with the seal of this same Holy Church.

Given in Santiago de Compostela on the day ... month ... year of the Lord ...

(signed by) The Dean of the S.A.M.I. Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela

 

[Annet2020]

Your supposition is correct. I am volunteering in the Pilgrim Office as I write this.

Can I ask you something else?

There's the digital form on the Pelgrim's office website now. When you click 'register', choose 'single' and select English language you can fill in the form. But then the only option to continue is 'create a group'. When you select Spanish language you can continue with 'alta individual'.
I suppose it's an incorrect translation and you can continue with 'create a group' as an individual? It's confusing because I don't want to create any group, I just want to complete the digital form.

It also doesn't say you wil get a QR code when you continue, do you get a QR code to be scanned by the person giving out the Compostela?

And do you have to fill in the form on arrival or can you do it the night before? Will it still be valid the next day?

 

[henrythedog]

In the past, when getting my Credential, I was asked why I was walking.
If for spiritual or religious reasons, I could get a Compostela.
If just walking for the heck of it, I could get a pretty piece of paper saying I'd completed the pilgrimage.
Some of my Credentials even have a space for the answer to that question.
But I notice this new Credential does not have that question.
Do they no longer ask if you are walking for religious reasons?
Or is it still a requirement?

The new wording neatly avoids the moral dilemma of obtaining a compostella, which may be of spiritual significance to some, by lying about your qualification for it.

Even the Catholic Church can be pragmatic when all other options have been exhausted.

 

[Kathor1]

wording

I have just deleted several posts that I wrote a few minutes ago. Because I have finally found something where the Cathedral uses the category "spiritual". Gone is also a link to an article in El Mundo from 2010 where the categories used in the Cathedral's statistics were religious, religious/cultural and cultural. As an aside, I must say that the collection, processing and presentation of pilgrim data by the Cathedral has never struck me as particularly rigorous.

Current (2021) online application form and last year's (2020) application form on paper - perhaps this is what @Anniesantiago remembers to have seen?:

 

[Bill's_Walking]

Can I ask you something else?

There's the digital form on the Pelgrim's office website now. When you click 'register', choose 'single' and select English language you can fill in the form. But then the only option to continue is 'create a group'. When you select Spanish language you can continue with 'alta individual'.
I suppose it's an incorrect translation and you can continue with 'create a group' as an individual? It's confusing because I don't want to create any group, I just want to complete the digital form.

It also doesn't say you wil get a QR code when you continue, do you get a QR code to be scanned by the person giving out the Compostela?

And do you have to fill in the form on arrival or can you do it the night before? Will it still be valid the next day?

I filled this out when I arrived in SdC two weeks ago. I got to the Pilgrims office late and filled out the digital form there. I honestly don't remember now if I did it at the kiosk in front of the office or on my phone. In any event the Pilgrims office sent me a confirmation email with a number. The next day when I arrived at the counter in the pilgrims office, the person there just looked up my name and did not ask for my confirmation number, and issued me my Compostela. Maybe it helps to have an uncommon surname. She did want to see my Credential as well.

 

[peterhore]

What, please, is the difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious'?
Am I right to think that 'religious' means someone who buys into the whole Catholic tradition, including the squawking cockerel at Santo Domingo, the stone boat, and the knight riding out of the water covered in covered in scallop shells, while 'spiritual' means almost everyone else including the Buddhist monk I saw at the river crossing in Portugal who couldn't pay his fare? Or simply a 'lost' soul looking for 'something'?
Of course, there must be gradations in these definitions ...
Peter

 

[C clearly]

What, please, is the difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious'?

It is whatever you take it to be.

 

[Vacajoe]

My confusion has always been why NON-religious folks have any interest in obtaining the VERY religious document known as a Compostela?!?! I understand the desire to walk and the choice to not identify as Catholic, but why the desire to then have a holy document issued by the Catholic Church? The very document specifically states you walked with religious intent.

The “completion” certificate is equally beautiful, issued at the same desk, and does not require one to feign allegiance to a specific church body or belief system. It proclaims exactly what a non-religious pilgrim has done: walked the Camino for non-religious reasons. THIS should be the one sought by those who are not practitioners of the Christian faith.

 

[Kathor1]

What, please, is the difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious'?

@C clearly has already given the perfect answer.

As to the credential and Compostela of the Santiago Cathedral, the discussion of these categories as motive for walking on a camino to Santiago is very academic, ie theoretical only.

To date, we've not yet seen a photo of a credential where the pilgrim has to indicate his or her motive (unless I've overlooked such a photo?). The paper form for applying for a Compostela distinguishes between the three categories of religious, spiritual, and sports or tourism, but all their statistics and their newer online form for applying for a Compostela distinguish only between theses three categories as motives to choose from: non-religious; religious; and religious and others.

And they don't even specify what they mean by "religious". Catholic? Christian? World religions only? Any ? And who can't squeeze a bit of a religious element into their Camino and with good conscience? A bet everyone who wants to. Buen Camino!!!

 

[Kathor1]

The very document specifically states you walked with religious intent.

I presume that many if not most people are not aware of this.

For starters, the Compostela text is in Latin and most people have only a vague idea of what it says and you see it only after you have already received it.

Some of the credentials issued by international pilgrim associations, and recognised by the Santiago Cathedral, do not even mention that the holder of the credential agrees to walk with a Christian sentiment, at least "searching", whatever that means. I never asked for a Compostela (matter of principle) but I could have done so and with a good conscience. I got my first credential in French from a French association; I had never looked at the blurb, although I can read French, until discussions on this forum made me read it, and that was the first time that I became aware of the "Christian sentiment" requirement.

Let's face it, it's the done thing to obtain a Compostela when you've walked the last 100 km on foot, and when you can vaguely claim some spiritual element, like giving thanks, thinking of dear ones, regretting stuff you did or said in your life, looking for some kind of answers to some kind of questions, sitting in old churches and reflecting a bit, trying to overcome emotional hurt ... it would be naive to think that those in Santiago who run the Compostela business don't know this. If I had to make a guess, I'd guess it is all done in the hope to get the sheep back home into the Shepherd's care and perhaps even recruit a few new ones.

 

[Vacajoe]

If I had to make a guess, I'd guess it is all done in the hope to get the sheep back home into the Shepherd's care and perhaps even recruit a few new ones.

Definitely! It’s about as far as Catholicism goes towards evangelization these days. . It’s the same reason that Mass and other rites are always open to everyone: you never know when someone may need it and be open to the message.

 

[trecile]

My confusion has always been why NON-religious folks have any interest in obtaining the VERY religious document known as a Compostela?!?! I understand the desire to walk and the choice to not identify as Catholic, but why the desire to then have a holy document issued by the Catholic Church? The very document specifically states you walked with religious intent.

The “completion” certificate is equally beautiful, issued at the same desk, and does not require one to feign allegiance to a specific church body or belief system. It proclaims exactly what a non-religious pilgrim has done: walked the Camino for non-religious reasons. THIS should be the one sought by those who are not practitioners of the Christian faith.

I completely agree!

never asked for a Compostela (matter of principle)

I've never asked for a Compostela either for the same reason. However, after my second Camino I compared my two certificates and discovered that they were different, and that I had been issued a Compostela for my first Camino without asking for it. In fact I very specifically told the Pilgrims Office worker that I wanted the certificate of welcome and not the Compostela.

 

[Former member 49149]

In the past, when getting my Credential, I was asked why I was walking.
If for spiritual or religious reasons, I could get a Compostela.
If just walking for the heck of it, I could get a pretty piece of paper saying I'd completed the pilgrimage.
Some of my Credentials even have a space for the answer to that question.
But I notice this new Credential does not have that question.
Do they no longer ask if you are walking for religious reasons?
Or is it still a requirement?

I am not sure, but that does not stop me from putting in my nose!
Does it matter? If it does, then get a Compostela. If it does not, get the other option.
The Church? The Catholic Church?
I doubt they care one iota.
We are a long way from the original pilgrim.
A very long way.
Was it ever truly a pilgrimage of devotion?
Is that even the question?
You are the important person in this.
I have a Compostela for each of my Caminos.
I am pleased to have them.
My grandpa would be proud of me.

 

[Tincatinker]

Wow. So, as I follow this conversation the discussion seems to be about whether a question regarding your personal reasons for making pilgrimage (walking) to Santiago de Compostella appears on a piece of paper for ticking or not; or is raised by an overworked clerk at the Pilgrim Office desk or not.

It occurs to me that while that question: your personal reasons for walking to SdC, might well be one that those who award a Compostella only to those who comply with a set set of criteria ask (or don't as the inclination takes them) is perhaps a better question to ask ourselves. Why am I walking to SdC?

Because my Faith requires it.

Because I want a pretty piece of paper with some middle ages Latin text that translates to something I can't quite remember.

Because I found out about it on the internet and it sounded like fun.

Because I want to make pilgrimage to the bones of one who stood with the Divine.

Because its on the way to where I'm going....

Because leathery Lomo is my favourite meal after desiccated Pollo.

Because.......

 

[peterhore]

Definitely! It’s about as far as Catholicism goes towards evangelization these days. . It’s the same reason that Mass and other rites are always open to everyone: you never know when someone may need it and be open to the message.

Are Mass and other rites open to non Catholics? I distinctly remember the old priest at Roncevaĺles telling the congregation that the host was only for true believers ie Catholics

 

[SabsP]

Are Mass and other rites open to non Catholics? I distinctly remember the old priest at Roncevaĺles telling the congregation that the host was only for true believers ie Catholics

In the strict sense , Holy Communion ( Consecration ) is not ' open" for non Catholics. But I'm very hesitant to write much about it here on the forum seeing the forumrules regarding religion ( most of the times it does not end well : these kind of discussions ). Although more clever forummembers can shine their light on this subject. There might be exceptions regarding receiving the Communion.

If you want more information regarding this subject you can use the searchengine in the right uppercorner of this forum.

 

[Former member 49149]

Are Mass and other rites open to non Catholics? I distinctly remember the old priest at Roncevaĺles telling the congregation that the host was only for true believers ie Catholics

Best ask this question offline. See point in previous post...

 

[jsalt]

What, please, is the difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious'?

My understanding is that “religious” means you regularly attend church services (of any faith). Whereas “spiritual” means you are open to the credence of religion, but not of any particular faith.

 

[Tincatinker]

My understanding is that “religious” means you regularly attend church services (of any faith). Whereas “spiritual” means you are open to the credence of religion, but not of any particular faith.

Wow! What a great interpretation.

Gets me off the hook. My old gods would be much gruntled if I chose just to big-up one of them. Thats why I've always sought to avoid the monotheistic institutions and follow what my grandma taught me.

And as I yomp my way to that old boat I take comfort that there are thousands of pilgrims trying to find my way

 

[SabsP]

Wow! What a great interpretation.

Gets me off the hook. My old gods would be much gruntled if I chose just to big-up one of them. Thats why I've always sought to avoid the monotheistic institutions and follow what my grandma taught me.

And as I yomp my way to that old boat I take comfort that there are thousands of pilgrims trying to find my way

I for one would love to talk to you about your gods and your grandma ( I have the feeling my grandma would have gotten along quite well with yours ).
A pilgrimage to your local pub is in order!

Anyway, will not hijack this thread any longer..

 

[Tincatinker]

The Old Star is open to Pilgrims of all faiths and none. As is this house.

 

[David Tallan]

Are Mass and other rites open to non Catholics? I distinctly remember the old priest at Roncevaĺles telling the congregation that the host was only for true believers ie Catholics

Without going too much into religion and running afoul of Forum rules, and in the spirit of talking about the Camino and Camino activities, I think the question conflates to separate (but related) activities - attending Mass and accepting Communion and the host. I never heard it indicated anywhere that Mass was open only to Catholics. There are many Pilgrim Masses along the Caminos and my understanding was always that they were open to anyone. The same goes for the Masses in Santiago. I'm not a Catholic (not even a Christian) but I do have Christian friends. I've heard from them that it is okay to attend masses as a guest (and other rites like marriages, baptisms, etc.). I think what it comes down to is that as a non-Catholic one can be a guest and witness the rites (marriage, communion, etc.) but not necessarily be a direct participant in the sacrament. As such, I've felt that I was respecting the religious boundaries on my Caminos when attending pilgrim masses as long as I didn't line up for Communion. If that isn't the case, it would be useful to know so that my Camino activities on future Caminos can better line up with my intentions.

 

[Tincatinker]

The acceptance of the host, the communion wafer and the wine, is with the understanding that you accept the transubstantiation. Easy for Pagans, more challenging for some other clubs.

Attendance at Mass neither infers nor confers that substantive belief.

 

[Vacajoe]

The church doors are open so all can come in and watch the ceremonies. That being said, the rite of receiving communion is only open to Catholics, though many priests will impart a blessing on anyone who comes forward with crossed arms (less so in smaller parishes and Spain).

 

[CarrieJL]

Been searching for clarification on this topic. We arrive tomorrow Oct 7, 2022. online Form asks for choice of religious, no religion or religion snf other. I chose non. 2022 Brierly book says must be religious or for other vows. Will I be denied Compostela? (Ridiculous if this is the case!). Should I re-register for and say religious & other?

 

[CarrieJL]

Been searching for clarification on this topic. We arrive tomorrow Oct 7, 2022. online Form asks for choice of religious, no religion or religion snf other. I chose non. 2022 Brierly book says must be religious or for other vows. Will I be denied Compostela? (Ridiculous if this is the case!). Should I re-register for and say religious & other?

Nevermind ! Just found out from a guide must be religious

 

[Former member 102963]

Nevermind ! Just found out from a guide must be religious

I got a compostella but not religious. Can’t remember what I put on form but no one I met on my walks were religious or even mentioned it and al got a compostella!

 

[Kathor1]

I got a compostella but not religious. Can’t remember what I put on form but no one I met on my walks were religious or even mentioned it and al got a compostella!

No matter which box you ticked in the online application form, if you got a Compostela and not any of the other certificates then you and every recipient of a Compostela now have it in black and white, albeit in Latin, that you visited the Cathedral with a Christian attitude after having walked the last one hundred kilometres on foot with a Christian attitude (pietatis causa) . Because that's what the text means according to the authors, and the Pilgrim Office has helpfully provided their translation of the Latin text on the Compostela into Spanish and into English, with the Spanish version mentioning the sentido cristiano twice and the English version once.

ha visitado devotamente y con sentido cristiano este sacratísimo templo tras haber realizado tanto a pie como a caballo los últimos cien kilómetros o en bicicleta los últimos doscientos con sentido cristiano (pietatis causa).​

​

And no, they don't check whether you actually went into the Cathedral.

 

[Bradypus]

Will I be denied Compostela? (Ridiculous if this is the case!).

Why is it "ridiculous" to be denied a Compostela if you have specifically stated that you are walking for non-religious reasons? Have you taken time to consider the text of the Compostela? In translation it reads " to all the Faithful and pilgrims who arrive from anywhere on the Orb of the Earth with an attitude of devotion or because of a vow or promise make a pilgrimage to the Tomb of the Apostle, Our Patron Saint and Protector of Spain, recognises before all who observe this document that: …………… has devotedly visited this most sacred temple having done the last hundred kilometers on foot or on horseback or the last two hundred by bicycle with Christian sentiment (pietatis causa)". Personally I would not wish to have my name recorded on a document if the statement it makes is false. An alternative welcome certificate without such religious wording is available for those like yourself who have actively disavowed any overtly religious or spiritual motivation.

 

[Former member 102963]

No matter which box you ticked in the online application form, if you got a Compostela and not any of the other certificates then you and every recipient of a Compostela now have it in black and white, albeit in Latin, that you visited the Cathedral with a Christian attitude after having walked the last one hundred kilometres on foot with a Christian attitude (pietatis causa) . Because that's what the text means according to the authors, and the Pilgrim Office has helpfully provided their translation of the Latin text on the Compostela into Spanish and into English, with the Spanish version mentioning the sentido cristiano twice and the English version once.

ha visitado devotamente y con sentido cristiano este sacratísimo templo tras haber realizado tanto a pie como a caballo los últimos cien kilómetros o en bicicleta los últimos doscientos con sentido cristiano (pietatis causa).​

​

And no, they don't check whether you actually went into the Cathedral.

That’s fine! I can’t say I am overthinking it. It was a nice souvenir after walking 800km. Same for the other folks.

 

[Kathor1]

That’s fine! I can’t say I am overthinking it. It was a nice souvenir after walking 800km. Same for the other folks.

It would actually be interesting to know whether the question on the online registration form about motive has only a statistical purpose or whether it actually matters as to who gets a Compostela and who doesn't and gets a different but equally pretty looking document instead. I mean actual practice in 2022 and not what guidebooks and blogs claim.

I noticed that the online registration form offers no option for choosing between Compostela and Welcome Certificate. It merely has a box that you can tick when you want a distance certificate in addition to your Compostela.

 

[Bradypus]

And no, they don't check whether you actually went into the Cathedral.

When I received my first Compostela they were issued in an office in the cathedral itself. So no need to ask

 

[Kathor1]

Personally I would not wish to have my name recorded on a document if the statement it makes is false. An alternative welcome certificate without such religious wording is available for those like yourself who have actively disavowed any overtly religious or spiritual motivation.

One reason why I never asked for a Compostela, other than the fact that I can decipher Latin when I put my mind to it , is the fact that while I could easily claim to have walked at least in parts with a "Christian sentiment" my brand of Christianity does not evoke exactly the same sentiments as other brands do, especially as far as the intercession of saints are concerned. But enough of such private confessions ...

More importantly, the Cathedral has changed the design, content and text of their Compostela numerous times throughout the centuries. In 1963, it still confirmed that the recipient had gone to Confession and received Communion (which are very essential elements of their faith for Catholics and other Christians, as many forum members will know). I don't know when this line was dropped from the Compostela but it is gone.

Why not update the text again and drop the reference to the recipient's sentiments and concentrate on the giver's sentiments instead and the sentiments with which the Compostela is given. After all, the Pilgrim Office is managed, at least in parts, by a non-profit association called Acogida Cristiana en los Caminos de Santiago (ACC) - Christian Welcome on the Caminos to Santiago - and part of their stated mission is to be al servicio del peregrino, abierto a una acogida sin distinción de procedencia, cultura, religión, sexo, i.e to be at the service of the pilgrim, open to a welcome without distinction of the pilgrim's origin, culture, religion, gender.

I am not holding my breath, though.

1963 Compostela:

 

[Bradypus]

, i.e to be at the service of the pilgrim, open to a welcome without distinction of the pilgrim's origin, culture, religion, gender.

Does that mean the form of welcome should be identical for all though? The pilgrim office is a department of the cathedral - an overtly Christian institution. The cathedral already offers an alternative welcome certificate for those who are clear that their motivation is not religious or spiritual. That seems both generous and respectful to me.

 

[Bradypus]

In 1963, it still confirmed that the recipient had gone to Confession and received Communion (which are very essential elements of their faith for Catholics and other Christians, as many forum members will know). I don't know when this line was dropped from the Compostela but it is gone.

Those conditions were certainly gone by the time I walked in 1990. But the great majority of pilgrims were still Catholic. As a Protestant theology student I was a very rare species. Before being given my Compostela I had a long and searching conversation with the cathedral priest on what the journey and pilgrimage meant to me as a non-Catholic. A theological debriefing which I found very useful in making some sense of the experience.

 

[Pafayac]

Those conditions were certainly gone by the time I walked in 1990. But the great majority of pilgrims were still Catholic. As a Protestant theology student I was a very rare species. Before being given my Compostela I had a long and searching conversation with the cathedral priest on what the journey and pilgrimage meant to me as a non-Catholic. A theological debriefing which I found very useful in making some sense of the experience.

I am a catholic but my reasons to walk to Santiago are not religious. At least in the sense that I am sure Holy James has not put even a single toe in Galicia, and its bones are not there. Furthermore I do not care. Relics are not required to believe.
Anyway, atmosphere on the camino is very special and I do not think you can walk there without feeling a kind of spiritual magic along it.
When I walked on the way on 2021 and 2022, I must admit I have found God in some other pilgrims.

 

[Kathor1]

It's a bit odd though ... I cannot find any current information about a Welcome Certificate / Certificado de Bienvenida on the website oficinadelperegrino.com - only on websites not related to the Pilgrim Office of Santiago.

The Pilgrim Office appears to merely mention the Compostela and the Distance Certificate. Also, as already mentioned there is no option in the online registration form to request a Welcome Certificate. Odd ... one would expect a bit of information about this, certainly for those who are novice pilgrims on their first Camino?

 

[David Tallan]

No matter which box you ticked in the online application form, if you got a Compostela and not any of the other certificates then you and every recipient of a Compostela now have it in black and white, albeit in Latin, that you visited the Cathedral with a Christian attitude after having walked the last one hundred kilometres on foot with a Christian attitude (pietatis causa) . Because that's what the text means according to the authors, and the Pilgrim Office has helpfully provided their translation of the Latin text on the Compostela into Spanish and into English, with the Spanish version mentioning the sentido cristiano twice and the English version once.

ha visitado devotamente y con sentido cristiano este sacratísimo templo tras haber realizado tanto a pie como a caballo los últimos cien kilómetros o en bicicleta los últimos doscientos con sentido cristiano (pietatis causa).​

​

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’​

​

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’​

​

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”​

Lewis Carroll - Through the Looking Glass​

In the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, one of the definitions for the adjective "christian" (the third one) is "treating other people in a kind or generous way". Or, from the other side of the pond, the Cambridge Dictionary defines the adjective "christian" as "used to describe a person or action that is good, kind, helpful, etc.". (My OED is at home.)

So with those definitions in mind, I can certainly say that I strive to walk my Caminos with a christian attitude.

 

[Former member 92300]

It does not have to be listed on your credential. But when at the Pilgrim's office in Santiago they do ask (or now the website asks) - and if you want a Compostela you have to say Religious or Spiritual. If you say something else, you get a different certificate. And then of course there is the separate distance certificate.

 

[Former member 102963]

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’​

​

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’​

​

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”​

Lewis Carroll - Through the Looking Glass​

In the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, one of the definitions for the adjective "christian" (the third one) is "treating other people in a kind or generous way". Or, from the other side of the pond, the Cambridge Dictionary defines the adjective "christian" as "used to describe a person or action that is good, kind, helpful, etc.". (My OED is at home.)

So with those definitions in mind, I can certainly say that I strive to walk my Caminos with a christian attitude.

Thank you! Very useful! I always steer clear of the word ‘Christian’ as I always assumed a religious connection (and I’m not) but can definitely sign up up to those definitions!

 

[trecile]

It does not have to be listed on your credential. But when at the Pilgrim's office in Santiago they do ask (or now the website asks) - and if you want a Compostela you have to say Religious or Spiritual. If you say something else, you get a different certificate.

I have both a Compostela and a "welcome certificate." I was given the Compostela on my first Camino even though I didn't ask for it.

They are both beautiful certificates.

The Compostela is on the left.

 

[trecile]

Thank you! Very useful! I always steer clear of the word ‘Christian’ as I always assumed a religious connection (and I’m not) but can definitely sign up up to those definitions!

I like this definition of pilgrimage on Wikipedia:

A pilgrimage is a journey, often into an unknown or foreign place, where a person goes in search of new or expanded meaning about their self, others, nature, or a higher good, through the experience. It can lead to a personal transformation, after which the pilgrim returns to their daily life

And this from Merriam-Webster

 

[Kathor1]

In the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, one of the definitions for the adjective "christian" (the third one)

Sure. Context free translation does not provide meaning but can be so inclusive:

Christian - adjective​

Definition​

1a: of or relating to Christianity: Christian scriptures​

1b: based on or conforming with Christianity: Christian ethics​

2a: of, relating to, or being a Christian: Christian responsibilities​

2b: professing Christianity: a Christian affirmation, a Christian country​

3: treating other people in a kind or generous way: has a very Christian concern for others​

You picked the wrong dictionaries though. The Compostela text is in Latin. Have a go at pietas f (genitive pietatis). That word has much more potential for global inclusiveness .

 

[Bradypus]

You picked the wrong dictionaries though. The Compostela text is in Latin. Have a go at pietas. That word has much more potential for global inclusiveness .

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. Defining 'christian' as one possessing universally positive values such as kindness and generosity seems to short-change Christians, atheists, agnostics and those of other faiths who all have their distinctive positions. I walked my first Camino as a thoroughly convinced and dogmatic Protestant Christian. These days I am less convinced but my "attitude of search" is far more to the fore! Walking the Caminos for me is in some part the hunt for something to fill the "god-shaped" hole left by the loss of conventional Christian faith.

 

[David Tallan]

Sure. Context free translation does not provide meaning but can be so inclusive:

Christian - adjective​

Definition​

1a: of or relating to Christianity: Christian scriptures​

1b: based on or conforming with Christianity: Christian ethics​

2a: of, relating to, or being a Christian: Christian responsibilities​

2b: professing Christianity: a Christian affirmation, a Christian country​

3: treating other people in a kind or generous way: has a very Christian concern for others​

You picked the wrong dictionaries though. The Compostela text is in Latin. Have a go at pietas f (genitive pietatis). That word has much more potential for global inclusiveness .

I started with Latin and was going to respond that I may not be approaching my Camino as Christian, but I do approach it with what Google translates as pietas. But then I noticed that you were referencing the Cathedral interpretation and the Cathedral authorities were, like Humpty Dumpty, mastering the Latin word and making it mean what they wanted it to mean. So I figured turn about was fair play and I could take what they had written in my language (English) and make it mean what I wanted it to mean.

 

[Flog]

It does not have to be listed on your credential. But when at the Pilgrim's office in Santiago they do ask (or now the website asks) - and if you want a Compostela you have to say Religious or Spiritual. If you say something else, you get a different certificate. And then of course there is the separate distance certificate.

It was the case, but not anymore. A compostela is now issued to all pilgrims who satisfy the 100km minimum distance. But if you don't  want one, you can ask for a welcome certificate.

 

[Kathor1]

what Google translates as pietas. But then I noticed that you were referencing the Cathedral interpretation and the Cathedral authorities were, like Humpty Dumpty, mastering the Latin word and making it mean what they wanted it to mean

Well. I can't say that I don't find this a rather odd remark. I love puzzles and I loved Latin at school and that's why I had great fun, some time ago, puzzling out the various convoluted grammar structures in the Compostela text. I remember in particular that I looked at the context of the use of the word pietas and pietatis causa, and of course I did so not by putting it into Google Translate but into Google Search , and spending quite a bit of time with scholarly text about Medieval Latin and Church Latin. An interesting word with an interesting history throughout the ages. However, suffice it to say that my interest is mainly in the linguistic aspect of the text, and not in how it relates to one's own attitude as to whether to justify to oneself whether to ask for and to get a Compostela or not.

I've often wondered what the Cathedral is getting out of this Compostela business in this day and age, what their purpose is. Sometimes I think that is now so established that they cannot get rid of it anymore one way or another . More seriously, tradition and outreach and the new evangelisation must certainly be a part of it. But mostly I think nowadays that it is part of their core business: caritas for all, not only for a member of their own flock but also for the stranger, no matter what his or her belief is if any. Works of caritas is what they've been good at for the better part of some 2000 years now.

 

[Corned Beef]

Wasn't the whole pilgrimage about the sacrament of penance. Your were banished from your home town (quite a punishment at the time) until you had completed it. The Compostella was evidence for your local clergy that you had completed your penance and could return.

Then it progressed to a financial gift to the church as penance, then the progression to the present day.

The only oddity would be that penance was 100k and not 99k.

 

[David Tallan]

Well. I can't say that I don't find this a rather odd remark. I love puzzles and I loved Latin at school and that's why I had great fun, some time ago, puzzling out the various convoluted grammar structures in the Compostela text. I remember in particular that I looked at the context of the use of the word pietas and pietatis causa, and of course I did so not by putting it into Google Translate but into Google Search , and spending quite a bit of time with scholarly text about Medieval Latin and Church Latin. An interesting word with an interesting history throughout the ages. However, suffice it to say that my interest is mainly in the linguistic aspect of the text, and not in how it relates to one's own attitude as to whether to justify to oneself whether to ask for and to get a Compostela or not.

I've often wondered what the Cathedral is getting out of this Compostela business in this day and age, what their purpose is. Sometimes I think that is now so established that they cannot get rid of it anymore one way or another . More seriously, tradition and outreach and the new evangelisation must certainly be a part of it. But mostly I think nowadays that it is part of their core business: caritas for all, not only for a member of their own flock but also for the stranger, no matter what his or her belief is if any. Works of caritas is what they've been good at for the better part of some 2000 years now.

Here's why I said they were mastering the word and making it mean what they want it to mean. You wrote:

No matter which box you ticked in the online application form, if you got a Compostela and not any of the other certificates then you and every recipient of a Compostela now have it in black and white, albeit in Latin, that you visited the Cathedral with a Christian attitude after having walked the last one hundred kilometres on foot with a Christian attitude (pietatis causa) .

Now when I looked at the Latin (pietatis causa) and translated it myself (with the help of Google), the word "Christian" never showed up in the translation. It seemed to me that they were making a more general term (piety) much more specific in their translation in a way that is not borne out by the original Latin. (I'm not a connoisseur of Latin.) So it seemed fair to me that I could use one of the legitimate definitions of the word "christian" to take it back to the broader sense I saw in the original Latin and honestly say that I walk with christian attitude (if perhaps not Christian attitude).

That said, if I tick off "Spritual" reasons on the form and they give me a Compostela, I don't feel dishonest in accepting it. If they really want to limit the Compostelas to Christians, they should ask people's religions on the form.

 

[David Tallan]

Wasn't the whole pilgrimage about the sacrament of penance. Your were banished from your home town (quite a punishment at the time) until you had completed it. The Compostella was evidence for your local clergy that you had completed your penance and could return.

Then it progressed to a financial gift to the church as penance, then the progression to the present day.

The only oddity would be that penance was 100k and not 99k.

Some pilgrims were completing the pilgrimage as punishment but by no means all and not even most. The 100 km minimum is quite modern and not related at all to medieval punishments.

 

[Bradypus]

If they really want to limit the Compostelas to Christians, they should ask people's religions on the form.

I don't think the cathedral has ever recorded religious affiliation in their statistics. When receiving a Compostela involved making confession and receiving communion then pilgrims would be assumed to be Catholic. The only record of religious affiliation I've ever come across was posted here by @Kathar1na a few years ago. Some 1988 statistics from Roncesvalles. About 98% identified themselves as Catholic. 2 Jewish. 2 Buddhist. And a solitary "sans religion". Worlds away from the current situation!

Some pilgrims were completing the pilgrimage as punishment but by no means all and not even most. The 100 km minimum is quite modern and not related at all to medieval punishments.

Modern enough that there was no 100km minimum rule at the time of my first Camino. Or when @David Tallan made his first journey even earlier.

 

[Tincatinker]

I've often wondered what the Cathedral is getting out of this Compostela business in this day and age, what their purpose is. Sometimes I think that is now so established that they cannot get rid of it anymore one way or another

I think it unlikely that Turismo de Galicia would permit the Cathedral to drop the Compostela concept. As @Flog states above "A compostela is now issued to all pilgrims who satisfy the 100km minimum distance" [even if they think pietatis is a lunch-time snack and the only searching they've done is for a good wee-fee connection].

What the Cathedral gains from the trade? Probably a lot of assistance with grant-aid applications for all that maintenance and repair and the odd bung for a party.

 

[Bradypus]

What the Cathedral gains from the trade? Probably a lot of assistance with grant-aid applications for all that maintenance and repair and the odd bung for a party.

The huge growth of the Caminos in Galicia has very much been a joint project betweeen the Xunta and the church. The early Camino revival in the 1980s was a fairly low key affair supported by many local voluntary associations and individual villages and towns. All very ad-hoc and often very basic in its offering. The springboard for the astounding numbers now was a very deliberate campaign by the Xunta to promote the 1993 Holy Year. It has always struck me as significant that once you enter Galicia the practical support - especially albergues - is very much a secular business. The church didn't build and maintain the modern network of albergues.

 

[Kathor1]

That said, if I tick off "Spritual" reasons on the form and they give me a Compostela, I don't feel dishonest in accepting it.

"Spiritual" is not an option that can be ticked off. Just for the record, below is a screenshot of the current form - the online application form for obtaining a Compostela that is used by the overwhelming majority of pilgrims for all I know.

BTW, they have not defined religioso either. I guess they assume that everybody knows which brand of religio they mean but that, too, leaves room for ad-lib wide interpretations by the more adventurously inclined translators.

 

[David Tallan]

To complicate things, if I am not Christian, but am doing my pilgrimage in vicare pro someone who is a religious Catholic who cannot walk it themself, with the intention that they receive any religious benefit that they expect, how does that count? (I'm intending "Religioso y otros" barring persuasive arguments to the contrary.)

 

[Kathor1]

To complicate things, if I am not Christian, but am doing my pilgrimage in vicare pro someone who is a religious Catholic who cannot walk it themself, with the intention that they receive any religious benefit that they expect, how does that count? (I'm intending "Religioso y otros" barring persuasive arguments to the contrary.)

Why do I suddenly see angels dancing on a pin ? Your choice isn't going to change the course of history. All it will do is add a tiny percentage point to one of the three sections of the pie chart of their statistical data. Below is the one for September 2022 - and for September 2019 for comparison ... Interesting shift, isn't it?

 

[Former member 92300]

It was the case, but not anymore. A compostela is now issued to all pilgrims who satisfy the 100km minimum distance. But if you don't  want one, you can ask for a welcome certificate.

I know they give everyone a certificate. My understanding was the certificate is a little different if you select religious/spiritual as opposed to something else. Perhaps that has changed... Oh well... I have always said "spiritual" so wouldn't know for sure!

 

[Flog]

I know they give everyone a certificate. My understanding was the certificate is a little different if you select religious/spiritual as opposed to something else.

Yes, the compostela. The motivo you select is just for statistics.