William Garza
Veteran Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Frances, The Jakobsweg
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My experience last year on the Le Puy Camino in May is that most walkers are not pilgrims, they are French pensioners. There are, of course, some pilgrims from Germany, Australia, NZ, USA, etc. Language-wise, thus, French is the most common language, followed by English. Never heard Spanish.Just idle tboughts
Wondering if in France and other surrounding countries that if there is an english barrier-s but not Spanish?
Guessing the closer you get the better the outlook on that?
I am not quite sure what your question is, but having traveled to the Houston/Galveston area in the past year several times I can say I have used my Spanish skills (limited as they may be) several times. In Spain, regardless of which region- Castilian works just fine. If you are going to be in a particular area- Galicia, Pais Vaso, Cataluna etc. a few words in the regional language is always appreciated.Was figuring that language bleed over in surrounding countries like here in the states would be effects
Lol, in parts of Texas,Louisiana there is a mixture of creole,spanish,english and still some french speaking in the back woods
Hi WilliamJust idle tboughts
Wondering if in France and other surrounding countries that if there is an english barrier-s but not Spanish?
Guessing the closer you get the better the outlook on that?
Yup,along those linesHi William
I took the meaning of your post to assume that with both French and Spanish ; being romantic languages … there might be more chance of being understood in the parts of France that were nearer spain, if one who could not speak French .& tried to communicate in Spanish. I would have thought (strictly my idle thought tho) that there would be more chance of a Frenchman understanding Spanish than English ??
French and Spanish are actually quite distant from each other, and typically Spanish monolinguals don't understand French and vice-versa.Borders are liquid and languages, customs etc bleed over.
There is some bleed over in the Italian/French border regions, as there are local dialects of Italian or French that borrow from the other language.
Yes, and over the border there are some Italian dialects, not French ones -- though few French people now speak those Italian dialects.In my opinion, in the case of Aosta ( Italy) they don' t speak an Italian dialect that borrows words from French, they speak a French dialect.
not in france, maybe northern portugalJust idle tboughts
Wondering if in France and other surrounding countries that if there is an english barrier-s but not Spanish?
Guessing the closer you get the better the outlook on that?
I wouldn' t say Spanish influence. I'd say Iberian influence. This is an Iberian area different to Galo areas in France.. Quite a way from the frontier there is a considerable Spanish influence in Arles but it doesn’t extend to the language.
I put "languages spoken in border regions" into Google, and the search results that came up had titles like "How sharp are language borders in your country and its surrounding regions" or "Language continuum on the Spain/French border". I think that is what is meant. Within Europe, both language borders and a language continuum or a dialect continuum are interesting topics. I am not sure that these can be compared to current linguistic situations in the United States in a meaningful way.I am not quite sure what your question is
Potato, patataI wouldn' t say Spanish influence. I'd say Iberian influence. This is an Iberian area different to Galo areas in France.
Not sure, by the way, what you mean by ‘english barrier-s’. Portuguese people, especially younger ones, often have very good English, and French too since many of them worked or grew up in France. Spanish is not much taught in French schools, but English is and French people, although they are shy about it, will use the English they know if you are nice about it.Just idle tboughts
Wondering if in France and other surrounding countries that if there is an english barrier-s but not Spanish?
Guessing the closer you get the better the outlook on that?
This is all quite true. The rule seems to be...most Portuguese under 30 or so can speak at least some English, having studied it as their primary "second language" in grade school. Many are quite bashful about using it, but will, in a pinch.Not sure, by the way, what you mean by ‘english barrier-s’. Portuguese people, especially younger ones, often have very good English, and French too since many of them worked or grew up in France. Spanish is not much taught in French schools, but English is and French people, although they are shy about it, will use the English they know if you are nice about it.
Basque is completely unrelated to Spanish and French. It is an entirely separate language having no mutual intelligibility with either of those languages.The only "bleeding" I would guess is Basque in the French and Spanish provinces.
I'm aware of thatBasque is completely unrelated to Spanish and French. It is an entirely separate language having no mutual intelligibility with either of those languages.
I don't think it applies in that case ; nor in the case of Catalan as far as French is concerned -- as the same language is spoken on both sides of the border rather than languages bleeding into each other.I'm aware of that, I actually almost wrote my undergraduate thesis about the Basques. I was specifically referring to the concept of bleeding of languages from one region or country to another.
I am still puzzled by what is meant by the concept of "bleeding" of languages. Is it a situation where a non-local language has "seeped" from a neighbouring region? I can only imagine that this happens when non-local language speakers move into a new area - immigrants from either another country and culture or mobile locals who move say from England to Wales (probably not a great example and used simply to illustrate the idea; a better example would be people moving from Brussels into the surrounding region but it is an example that is not familiar to most posters I'd guess - and a thorny issue anyway).the concept of bleeding of languages from one region or country to another
In France, most of us say "Bon Chemin".For starters, btw, they don't call it "Camino" in France. I am pretty sure but I will pay close attention again and prick my ears as soon as a get a chance to walk on a Chemin de Compostelle or a Chemin de Saint-Jacques again.
Ooh, time for my anecdoteIn France, most of us say "Bon Chemin".
I agree. Giving another example, in Grandas de Salime ( Primitivo) the original language is Galego despite being In Asturias. People on this area think that they speak this way because they are close to Galicia but that's not true. They speak that way because the pre-Roman people were the Galaics, not the Astures who lived in Pola de Allande and beyond. Puerto del Palo is the linguistic border.I can't speak for situations in the USA. In Europe - on those regions where there is crossborder use of languages - language use did not "seep" or "bleed" across a national or regional border. The languages and dialects were established long before the national or regional-administrative borders were drawn. A popular well-known example is Alsace–Lorraine / Elsass–Lothringen with their changing political/national/regional borders.
No -- linguistically, even though the concept has been somewhat messily suggested by the OP, it basically refers to local dialectalism in trans-national border regions.I am still puzzled by what is meant by the concept of "bleeding" of languages. Is it a situation where a non-local language has "seeped" from a neighbouring region? I can only imagine that this happens when non-local language speakers move into a new area - immigrants from either another country and culture or mobile locals who move say from England to Wales (probably not a great example and used simply to illustrate the idea; a better example would be people moving from Brussels into the surrounding region but it is an example that is not familiar to most posters I'd guess - and a thorny issue anyway).
That is a misconception, I'm afraid.I can't speak for situations in the USA. In Europe - on those regions where there is crossborder use of languages - language use did not "seep" or "bleed" across a national or regional border. The languages and dialects were established long before the national or regional-administrative borders were drawn.
There is very little "bleed" between French and Spanish.However, if the question is this: Is it increasingly likely that Spanish is spoken in areas in France the closer these areas are to the French-Spanish border than my answer, based in my albeit limited experience in the field, is: No.
I had heard it was the opposite. Portuguese understand Spanish (whether or not they admit it), but Spanish have much more difficulty understanding Portuguese (although it isn't that difficult for them to learn).Spanish do understand Portuguese
Some French do.For starters, btw, they don't call it "Camino" in France (thread title!)
Looks very inaccurate, even just down here locally.
The OP is from Texas where an interesting linguistic landscape exists particularly along the Mexican border. Aside from the obvious linguistic influence of migrants from Central and South America there is the fact that there are Spanish speaking communities that have existed since before Texas was a republic. As a friend once observed “my family didn’t cross the border it crossed us”.No -- linguistically, even though the concept has been somewhat messily suggested by the OP, it basically refers to local dialectalism in trans-national border regions.
Typically, non-native immigrants will over a number of generations become mother tongue speakers of the language spoken natively in the region or country in question, with little influence over how that language is spoken.
That is a misconception, I'm afraid.
There is a fairly hard linguistic border between French and Spanish, but that's more exception than rule.
Both countries also have a Language Academy that promotes an official language that represses the various local dialects.
But the normal situation in a normal linguistic region is that of a patchwork of local and regional dialects and languages, including where each particular village will have its own dialect, which is the case in most of Italy, most of Portugal, and to a lesser extent regionally in Spain and France.
There is very little "bleed" between French and Spanish.
That is an excellent clarification, thanks !!The OP is from Texas where an interesting linguistic landscape exists particularly along the Mexican border. Aside from the obvious linguistic influence of migrants from Central and South America there is the fact that there are Spanish speaking communities that have existed since before Texas was a republic. As a friend once observed “my family didn’t cross the border it crossed us”.
Thank you for sharing this and other thoughts. You may want to check some background although I am not sure that further details are of interest to the OP. Just one example and it's even in Wikipedia so easy to find, and there are of course explanations on the linked website itself:There's no "niçart" but it's Nissart
Wikipedia is insufficiently reliable.Thank you for sharing this and other thoughts. You may want to check some background although I am not sure that further details are of interest to the OP. Just one example and it's even in Wikipedia so easy to find, and there are of course explanations on the linked website itself:
niçard (Classical orthography), nissart/niçart (Mistralian orthography), niçois (French), or nizzardo (Italian) is the dialect that was historically spoken in the city of Nice, in France, and in a few surrounding communes.
Its a bit more complicated in Texas as waves from the german,czech,polishThe OP is from Texas where an interesting linguistic landscape exists particularly along the Mexican border. Aside from the obvious linguistic influence of migrants from Central and South America there is the fact that there are Spanish speaking communities that have existed since before Texas was a republic. As a friend once observed “my family didn’t cross the border it crossed us”.
Is the road named after Adolph Toepperwein (October 16, 1869 – March 4, 1962) who toured with his wife as the Fabulous Topperweins as exhibition shooters and who died in San Antonio?Topperwein road..a road in San Antonio
This (see below) is how the area in Texas along the border with Mexico is represented on the website I linked to earlier. If anyone wants to criticise what they see I'd recommend to first read the explanations about the linguistic criteria used and the aim of this apparent labour of love. I just find it interesting and I guess it is obvious that I have no plans to engage in criticising and debating minute details. Do make a comparison with the linguistic map of the French-Spanish border to the extent that a comparison is meaningful given the differences in historical developments. And above all: enjoy!The OP is from Texas where an interesting linguistic landscape exists particularly along the Mexican border. Aside from the obvious linguistic influence of migrants from Central and South America there is the fact that there are Spanish speaking communities that have existed since before Texas was a republic. As a friend once observed “my family didn’t cross the border it crossed us”.
Very nice!This (see below) is how the area in Texas along the border with Mexico is represented on the website I linked to earlier. If anyone wants to criticise what they see I'd recommend to first read the explanations about the linguistic criteria used and the aim of this apparent labour of love. I just find it interesting and I guess it is obvious that I have no plans to engage in criticising and debating minute details. Do make a comparison with the linguistic map of the French-Spanish border to the extent that a comparison is meaningful given the differences in historical developments. And above all: enjoy!
The fat dark line is the border between the USA and Mexico. Parts of Texas, New Mexico and Arizona are shown. Berri is Basque for New. Did I already mention that I recommend to read the explanations on the website?
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This is very interesting, thank you very much!This (see below) is how the area in Texas along the border with Mexico is represented on the website I linked to earlier. If anyone wants to criticise what they see I'd recommend to first read the explanations about the linguistic criteria used and the aim of this apparent labour of love. I just find it interesting and I guess it is obvious that I have no plans to engage in criticising and debating minute details. Do make a comparison with the linguistic map of the French-Spanish border to the extent that a comparison is meaningful given the differences in historical developments. And above all: enjoy!
The fat dark line is the border between the USA and Mexico. Parts of Texas, New Mexico and Arizona are shown. Berri is Basque for New. Did I already mention that I recommend to read the explanations on the website?
View attachment 172386
Well, France is France and except maybe very close to the spanish border you might have more Spanish speaking French people, just like on the German border they speak German. In the center of France where I am at the moment, it is French speaking with some people at times understanding English and sometimes Spanish too.Hi William
I took the meaning of your post to assume that with both French and Spanish ; being romantic languages … there might be more chance of being understood in the parts of France that were nearer spain, if one who could not speak French .& tried to communicate in Spanish. I would have thought (strictly my idle thought tho) that there would be more chance of a Frenchman understanding Spanish than English ??
There is a common perception that people on both sides of a national border are likely to speak each other's language. I don't think that this is accurate, at least not in Europe. I speak not only from what I know in general but also from personal experience. I've lived very close to linguistic borders in two different countries and two different constellations. What determines the level of knowledge of the other's language is not vicinity. It is historical developments, national language policy (such as suppression of a minority language for example, i.e. no school education in a minority language, no subsidies for newspapers, TV, radio in a minority language) and what is called a dialect continuum or a language continuum (where for example the dialects between two neighbouring villages are very similar but also very slightly different and this continues over a large area).France is France and except maybe very close to the spanish border you might have more Spanish speaking French people, just like on the German border they speak German
Exposure by travel for the oilfield brought other workers from neighboring states mentioned and as well as food,habits and colloquialisms gave a different norm.There is a common perception that people on both sides of a national border are likely to speak each other's language. I don't think that this is accurate, at least not in Europe. I speak not only from what I know in general but also from personal experience. I've lived very close to linguistic borders in two different countries and two different constellations. What determines the level of knowledge of the other's language is not vicinity. It is historical developments, national language policy (such as suppression of a minority language for example, i.e. no school education in a minority language, no subsidies for newspapers, TV, radio in a minority language) and what is called a dialect continuum or a language continuum (where for example the dialects between two neighbouring villages are very similar but slightly different and this continues over a large area).
@Mendizale, thank you for your contribution.reality is complicated
You guys have been a HUGE eye opener to culture for me at least!Mutual comprension sp-fr is not so easy as phonetic barrier is big. But people in border areas do tend to speak the others language due to commercial interest. In most shops of San Jean de Luz, Hendaye Spanish is spoken. Not so realmin the spanish, where youth speak more English. In the basque region one could think that having a common native language in both sides of the border do things easier. Not so true, reality is complicated. France's hyper-centralist policy still does not officially recognise "regional languages", in our case, Euskera. This is terrible for the prestige of a language, it is associated with the way people talk in the village. In France, very few people speak it for this very reason, despite the success of the Ikastolak language immersion schools. This clashes with the reality of the Spanish part, where, despite the legal difficulties for total normalisation, a citizen of the Basque autonomous community or of the Basque-speaking areas of Navarre has the recognised right to communicate with the public administration (half of the time, this is true), to study at school, at university in Euskera or even to publish doctoral theses in Euskera. Specifically, in the province of Gipuzkoa, 50% of adults and 80% of teenagers speak Euskera (as their first or second language). It is difficult to find Basque speakers on the French Basque coast (many new residents each year from the Bordeaux and Paris areas). In the interior area, for example Ustaritz, Sara, Bigorri, SJPdP, it is easier to speak Basque. It could be a language of understanding on both sides of the border, but I fear that it is not in the political interest of both countries to promote it as a common language.
Way back in the early 80s, when I was studying linguistics as an undergrad, we were taught that people from neighboring villages in Europe generally spoke local dialects that were mutually intelligible. Even between France and Germany, where the national languages were from two different language families, this idea of a village to village linguistic continuum was presented to us as the case (surprising as it was to me). It may be that I was completely misunderstanding (or am misremembering) what my professors were saying, although it really stands out in my memory as something noteworthy and which would have been questioned. It may be that they got it wrong. It may be that things have changed a lot in the 40 years since I was in those classes and national language policies, pervasive media, or other forces have displaced those local dialects with something more like the standard national language.There is a common perception that people on both sides of a national border are likely to speak each other's language. I don't think that this is accurate, at least not in Europe. I speak not only from what I know in general but also from personal experience. I've lived very close to linguistic borders in two different countries and two different constellations. What determines the level of knowledge of the other's language is not vicinity. It is historical developments, national language policy (such as suppression of a minority language for example, i.e. no school education in a minority language, no subsidies for newspapers, TV, radio in a minority language) and what is called a dialect continuum or a language continuum (where for example the dialects between two neighbouring villages are very similar but also very slightly different and this continues over a large area).
I'm no expert and, in fact, only did a little research after reading an interesting fact about Romansh in Switzerland. It is an official language of Switzerland though spoken only by a VERY small number of people. There are many dialects due to settlements in isolated valleys spread out linearly. It is difficult for those on the far east and west valleys to understand each other. The government created a standard Romansh dialect to use in radio and television broadcasts but this is not used by the population who instead will use Swiss German amongst themselves when needed.It may be that things have changed a lot in the 40 years since I was in those classes and national language policies, pervasive media, or other forces have displaced those local dialects with something more like the standard national language.
I'd say that would depend where in Europe, though as a generality I'd say that's right. The border area French where I live speak Italian far more often than the other French do, and the same is true of the Italians on the other side of the border - - having said that, locally it's due to many local tourism and work realities that give reason to both populations to learn each others' languages.There is a common perception that people on both sides of a national border are likely to speak each other's language. I don't think that this is accurate, at least not in Europe.
Great stuff, though as a counterpoint, at the Perthus, if you're on one side of the main road you're in France, and on the other in Spain. The Spanish side is livelier as the shops are less expensive, but the locals there most definitely do their to-and-fro, and speak both languages as a matter of course. Also, though I wasn't able to verify this when I passed through, it's not unlikely that amongst themselves, they speak Catalan.There is a village in Zamora province divided between Portugal and Spain called Rionor/ Rihonor de Castilla. If you visit the village you'll realize that Castillian is spoken at the Spanish side of the border and Portuguese at the other side. When the border was set in twelfth century all inhabitants spoke Asturleones.
I think that in Rionor everybody must speak Castilian and Portuguese but nobody Asturleones. There is still some Asturleones in Portugal in the municipality of Miranda de Douro that is official in Portugal. Asturleones is not official in Asturias and Leon.Great stuff, though as a counterpoint, at the Perthus, if you're on one side of the main road you're in France, and on the other in Spain. The Spanish side is livelier as the shops are less expensive, but the locals there most definitely do their to-and-fro, and speak both languages as a matter of course. Also, though I wasn't able to verify this when I passed through, it's not unlikely that amongst themselves, they speak Catalan.
But I think that in Burguete, Euskera is lost as first language. When I did SJPP - Logroño I only heard Spanish there.One of the most interesting cases of the Basque-French-Spanish border is that of Valcarlos (Luzaide for Basque speakers), a small town that many of you in this forum will know, with Arneguy (Arnegi). Both are physically far from the surrounding towns and stuck together. Both share streets and are separated by a river. Valcarlos is located in the Basque speaking area of Navarre, but they speak the Basque dialect of the French region of SJPdP, the same as Arnegi. The inhabitants on both sides of the border are closely mixed. In both towns the percentage of Basque speakers is 70%, and practically all speak the 3 languages. Since 2018, in order to take advantage of public resources, the children of both towns share a single public school and study in a trilingual model, Basque, French and Spanish. These are two towns where the inhabitants speak three languages and switch from one to the other depending on the circumstances and the interlocutors, although the local language spoken is mainly the Navarrese-Lapurdian dialect. The Basque they study at school is the standard one, in this case Navarrese-Lapurdian is very close to standard (as is the central or Guipuzcoan dialect and the Alto Navarrese).
Auritz/Burguete is in the basque speaking area and fortunately it is not lost, 30% of it's habitants speak it. In those percentages speakers speak it when met eachother, not in the everyday day community live. they But I don't know much about the village except I was there a pair of times in summer camps in childhood.But I think that in Burguete, Euskera is lost as first language. When I did SJPP - Logroño I only heard Spanish there.
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