Some albergues seem to be disappearing from Google Maps

[DoughnutANZ]

Would other Google Maps users please check to see if they can find these three albergues on Google Maps. Albergue parroquial San Miguel in Estella, Albergue Casa Paderborn in Pamplona and Albergue Camino del Perdón in Uterga. These three are examples, there are many more.

I have been tidying up my trip diary and pulling in information from my Google Maps timeline but I am finding that a significant number of albergues seem to have just disappeared from Google Maps. I realise that with Covid-19 in Spain that many of these are temporarily closed but normally Google doesn't delete accommodation entries unless they are permanently closed. I am wondering if there is something in my version of Google Maps that is causing this.

For me it shows up as a marker without any text. These three above albergues, for example, are in one of my Lists for Google Maps and that is why they get their own map marker but the information that used to be associated with the marker(s) is no gone.

If it isn't just my version of maps then anyone planning a future Camino and using Google Maps is going to have issues as a number of albergues that "we" think are closed temporarily have been permanently deleted from Google Maps, along with their ratings and reviews.

@Rick of Rick and Peg @David Tallan and any other techy Google Maps users would you please have a quick look and let me know what you find please.

 

[SioCamino]

Hi, i can find it on Google maps when I search... It might be related to a new setting on Google... At least for me today, when i opened my Google mail app on my phone, i had to choose 2 settings - #1 related to "smart" mail settings (automatic reminders etc etc) and #2 was related to similar settings for other Google apps including maps. So perhaps your settings have changed?
Not sure if that helps! Might be just a coincidence.

 

[SabsP]

Nothing here either @Doughnut NZ . Hope our techie people can shine some light.

 

[Pilgrim9]

When I moved Google Maps to the vicinity of Uterga and searched for "Albergue Camino del Perdón", the albergue's marker and name etc. did appear.

My various Google Maps searches for the other two did not return relevant results.

My experience with Google Maps is that if I leave the map focus on a certain area for a few minutes without moving it at all, more and more points of interest and my own favourites from years ago etc. slowly appear on the map, as though the servers need some time to search through their many trillions of database entries.

 

[Laurie Sanantone]

Interesting... when I search Google Maps for Casa Paderborn, only 2 albergues appear in all of Pamplona: Ibarrola and Jesus y Maria. The Paderborn website has this:

“Our hostel Casa Paderborn is closed since 13.March 2020 and will remain so until at least the end of April. On 23.March 2020 it was handed over to the city of Pamplona to serve as an emergency accommodation. We hope to be welcoming pilgrims again from March 2021 onwards.”​

I wonder how Google Maps would know they are not accepting pilgrims?

 

[naplesdon]

Check to see if the Wise Pilgrim has any up dates. Michael is pretty much on top of current events.

 

[jungleboy]

I just typed in Albergue Camino del Perdón into the Google Maps app for iPhone and it came up.

 

[David Tallan]

My experience was like Pilgrim9. I could find the one in Uterga, but not the others in Estella and Pamplona. I can find the buildings on the map, and if I go into street view I can see them as albergues, but they aren't identified in the map view (except for the one in Uterga).

 

[Lexicos]

....... mate, some countries are disappearing from google maps.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I'm late to this show but I just searched for Pamplona on my Android, just Pamplona, not any particular albergue. As I use my fingers to zoom in I slowly see more albergues and hostels. I mean that in an area I might see one or two lodging pins but as I zoom in I see in the SAME area of street blocks more of the lodging pins. Maybe Google shows them in the order of ratings or something.

Google did not show any lodging location for Paderborn though with the search "Albergue Casa Paderborn, Pamplona".

Really weird is a search for "Albergue de Pamplona, Pamplona" which just shows a standard pin and bottom of screen information about "Pamplona Hostel". These two are are the same place (Hostal Pamplona is another place). Search for "Pamplona Hostel, Pamplona" and you get a star locating the place with informational text attached to the star. The pictures of the place though show a header for "Albergue de Pamplona".

 

[Deleted member 34316]

Guys, the albergue in Pamplona has been converted to a homeless shelter... Probably not the only one.

[self-edited: irrelevant preaching part]

El albergue Jesús y María volverá a acoger a personas sin hogar durante la noche​

 

[linkster]

I know your question was specific to Google Maps, but I just tried a Google search. The only one that came up with a website, and map on the right side of the page was Albergue Camino del Perdón in Uterga. The others were listed as closed.

 

[SabsP]

Guys, the albergue in Pamplona has been converted to a homeless shelter... Probably not the only one.
I think for some pre-covid pilgrims, especially those living on different continents, it is hard to understand the changes going on in Spain, but they are profound... And this is not even beginning of the shift.

El albergue Jesús y María volverá a acoger a personas sin hogar durante la noche​

The OP did not ask about the Jesus y Maria albergue but about Casa Paderborn which is operated by the German Confraternity of St James. But yes, they also now have a deal with the city of Pamplona to help out.

Casa Paderborn - english - Freundeskreis der Jakobuspilger Paderborn

The Albergue „Casa Paderborn” in Pamplona Dear pilgrim friends, there’s not much to explain about the situation we’re in now. The Camino and all its hostels are closed and will remain so for an uncertain time. The facilitated mobility makes it all the more necessary for us today to limit...

jakobusfreunde-paderborn.com

 

[trecile]

I went to Gronze.com to see what they show.
They are showing Casa Paderborn as temporarily closed





There is a Google map on the site that shows the location



But when you open the map it shows the marker, but not the name





It's the same for San Miguel in Estella, but Albergue Camino del Perdón shows on Google maps.

 

[Deleted member 34316]

Albergue Camino del Perdón shows on Google maps.

But only at the highest zoom (on laptop screen, not the phone)

Small zoom - you can see just the building


Medium zoom - only the hostal can be seen


Maximum zoom - finally Albergue appears

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I'm late to this show but I just searched for Pamplona on my Android, just Pamplona, not any particular albergue. As I use my fingers to zoom in I slowly see more albergues and hostels. I mean that in an area I might see one or two lodging pins but as I zoom in I see in the SAME area of street blocks more of the lodging pins. Maybe Google shows them in the order of ratings or something.

Google did not show any lodging location for Paderborn though with the search "Albergue Casa Paderborn, Pamplona".

Really weird is a search for "Albergue de Pamplona, Pamplona" which just shows a standard pin and bottom of screen information about "Pamplona Hostel". These two are are the same place (Hostal Pamplona is another place). Search for "Pamplona Hostel, Pamplona" and you get a star locating the place with informational text attached to the star. The pictures of the place though show a header for "Albergue de Pamplona".

Thanks for this.

In my GMaps a star indicates that the property is included in my System list of star-ed places. While the empty list itself is created by Google by default, I put places into the list by "star-ing" them on GMaps.

In my case all three albergues are in a personal list that I created to record where I stayed in 2019.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

But only at the highest zoom (on laptop screen, not the phone)

Small zoom - you can see just the building
View attachment 88941

Medium zoom - only the hostal can be seen
View attachment 88942

Maximum zoom - finally Albergue appears

View attachment 88943

Thank you.

Would you please try clicking on the "Albergue" icon and tell me what text is showing.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I went to Gronze.com to see what they show.
They are showing Casa Paderborn as temporarily closed

There is a Google map on the site that shows the location

But when you open the map it shows the marker, but not the name

View attachment 88940

It's the same for San Miguel in Estella, but Albergue Camino del Perdón shows on Google maps.

Thank you.

Yes, that is what I am finding when I click on the saved albergue from my list. The name of the albergue has gone, along with the information about it and the only thing left is the map reference.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I just typed in Albergue Camino del Perdón into the Google Maps app for iPhone and it came up.

View attachment 88932

Thanks for this

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Okay, here is a summary of my current thinking on this, informed by the replies I have received and a bit more detective work. Firstly, thank you to everyone who replied, all replies have been useful.

1) When a business/organisation/facility is marked as being permanently closed and that is accepted by Google Maps because of documentation provided or the prior identification of the "owner" of an organisation then all details pertaining to that organisation are deleted from Google Maps. Where there is an external reference to that organisation such as in one of Google Maps Lists or, for example, on the Gronze website then those references (names of the facility) is changed to a map reference.

2) When a business/organisation/facility is marked as being temporarily closed it retains all information including historic reviews and simple shows as being temporarily closed when you go to view the details of the b/o/f. All external links remain valid and are unchanged.

Comments:
Covid-19 has massively increased the number of b/o/f's that have temporarily closed. I suspect that this caught the Google Maps Team somewhat off guard and as a result some of what we all hope are only temporary closures have been marked as being permanent closures.

Albergue Camino del Perdón is a red-herring in this situation. When I look at the listing details that I can now find (after deleting it from my personal GMaps List) I can see that this "particular" listing was first put on Google Maps around 12 months ago when the first of only four reviews was posted. I know that there was a listing for this albergue prior to this because I had given it a favourable review and I had it in one of my personal lists from early 2019.

I suspect that for some reason at around this time they changed the name to Hostal Camino del Perdón which shows up at the same address in Uterga and then created a new listing for Albergue Camino del Perdón.

Leaving Albergue Camino del Perdón aside, how do the permanent closures of what may be facilities that do re-open after it becomes safe to do so mean for me and possibly other pilgrims on various Caminos?

Firstly, there is a loss of personal history. I can now no longer go back into my GMaps timeline and see every place where I stayed on my 2019 Camino. The names (photos and details) of some places has been replaced by a map reference and so if I need to know the historic name of the place then I have to go to a lot of effort using some other tool to find the name (but not the same photos and details) that existed on Google Maps.

Secondly, a lot of work will be needed to re-establish the names, photos and details of the places that do finally re-open and it will take some time for them to re-establish their prior reputation (good and bad).

Thirdly, in the meantime, pilgrims that are using GMaps to plan future pilgrimages will need to be aware that if they look at a current version of GMaps then they will have very incomplete information.

Once again, many thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Thanks for this.

In my GMaps a star indicates that the property is included in my System list of star-ed places. While the empty list itself is created by Google by default, I put places into the list by "star-ing" them on GMaps.

In my case all three albergues are in a personal list that I created to record where I stayed in 2019.

The picture below is what I meant by the star and associated text. I think your star looks more like this to indicate a favorite. I usually add favorites to OSMand figuring Google gets enough location information from me. Beside the point here but notice how I searched for one name and Google shows it with its other name.

 

[Via2010]

Hi,
I am a member of the Paderborn Cofraternity of St. James. Their shelter is temporarily closed, but they hope to re-open in March 2021. But they are also moving to different premises, as the old hostel was too close to the river and flooded regularily. So this may explain why you can not find them in GoogleMaps now.

BC
Alexandra

 

[Laurie Sanantone]

@Doughnut, thank you (and other posters) for your work on this! You’ve alerted us to one of the issues that will impact pilgrims as we plan for future caminos.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

The picture below is what I meant by the star and associated text. I think your star looks more like this to indicate a favorite. I usually add favorites to OSMand figuring Google gets enough location information from me. Beside the point here but notice how I searched for one name and Google shows it with its other name.
View attachment 88960

Ah, yes. I have noticed over the past couple of days that GMaps is now using supplemental review information from TripAdvisor. I think that this is what that star is, it is indicating that the information came from TripAdvisor.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

The picture below is what I meant by the star and associated text. I think your star looks more like this to indicate a favorite. I usually add favorites to OSMand figuring Google gets enough location information from me. Beside the point here but notice how I searched for one name and Google shows it with its other name.
View attachment 88960

With regards to the different names, I think that GMaps has generalised your query and is showing albergues within the map window, within Pamplona but I could be wrong. Just a guess. You could try putting the name within quotes but the city outside the quotes and see if that changes things.

 

[AlwynWellington]

Albergue parroquial San Miguel in Estella

@Doughnut NZ, I focussed on this hostel, having stayed there twice (long story).

No, it is not showing in GM, not matter how long I waited.

On searching the name I found:

At https://www.alberguescaminosantiago.com/albergues/albergue-peregrinos-parroquia-san-miguel-estella-navarra/ it has its own page. In the preamble there is nothing to suggest temporary or permanent closure. This is one of many parochial alberque being hosted. At the "notices" page there is nothing specific.

At https://www.wisepilgrim.com/camino-frances/estella-lizarra/albergue-parroquial-san-miguel-archangel I found "CLOSED" in bold at the top. But drilling down I found it is open from Holy (Week) to November. As we are now outside that period my worries evaporated.

This hostel is owned and operated by a nearby parish. It occupies the basement floor of a relatively new (post 2010?) building with three floors of apartments above. In season it is staffed by volunteer hospitallers (I encountered one from Brazil, one from Canada and one Spaniard). At present I suspect the outgoings would be minimal and further suspect they are well covered by "donativo" in season. The space could be turned into car parking as a long term alternative.

My (possibly suspect) analysis is there is no immediate need to permanently close the hostel.

Thus any "deletion" through GM may be on the basis of a misunderstanding.

I say that as earlier this year I was mapping in Open Street Maps the Augustine Camino in Kent, England from Rochester Cathedral, through Canterbury to Ramsgate and encountered many food and accommodation places marked as "closed temporarily" and wondered if the "volunteers" who had done this would remember to take this tag off. And close to home I found an eatery that change hands and name two years ago still had the old name on GM when I wanted to make a booking - I spoke with the new management after our meal and things changed very quickly within GM.

Going forward - two thoughts

1) for any hostel search for the town, or hostel, directly so see what exists. Wise Pilgrim and Gronze and other are part of this - in other words do not rely on GM.
2) consider Open Street Maps - focussed on Estella as an alternative. Not quite so sexy as GM. In small towns and villages you look for the "double bunk" symbol. OSM is updated by locals and tends to be more reflective of reality.

Kia ora, kia kaha (good health, take care)

 

[DoughnutANZ]

@Doughnut NZ, I focussed on this hostel, having stayed there twice (long story).

No, it is not showing in GM, not matter how long I waited.

On searching the name I found:

At https://www.alberguescaminosantiago.com/albergues/albergue-peregrinos-parroquia-san-miguel-estella-navarra/ it has its own page. In the preamble there is nothing to suggest temporary or permanent closure. This is one of many parochial alberque being hosted. At the "notices" page there is nothing specific.

At https://www.wisepilgrim.com/camino-frances/estella-lizarra/albergue-parroquial-san-miguel-archangel I found "CLOSED" in bold at the top. But drilling down I found it is open from Holy (Week) to November. As we are now outside that period my worries evaporated.

This hostel is owned and operated by a nearby parish. It occupies the basement floor of a relatively new (post 2010?) building with three floors of apartments above. In season it is staffed by volunteer hospitallers (I encountered one from Brazil, one from Canada and one Spaniard). At present I suspect the outgoings would be minimal and further suspect they are well covered by "donativo" in season. The space could be turned into car parking as a long term alternative.

My (possibly suspect) analysis is there is no immediate need to permanently close the hostel.

Thus any "deletion" through GM may be on the basis of a misunderstanding.

I say that as earlier this year I was mapping in Open Street Maps the Augustine Camino in Kent, England from Rochester Cathedral, through Canterbury to Ramsgate and encountered many food and accommodation places marked as "closed temporarily" and wondered if the "volunteers" who had done this would remember to take this tag off. And close to home I found an eatery that change hands and name two years ago still had the old name on GM when I wanted to make a booking - I spoke with the new management after our meal and things changed very quickly within GM.

Going forward - two thoughts

1) for any hostel search for the town, or hostel, directly so see what exists. Wise Pilgrim and Gronze and other are part of this - in other words do not rely on GM.
2) consider Open Street Maps - focussed on Estella as an alternative. Not quite so sexy as GM. In small towns and villages you look for the "double bunk" symbol. OSM is updated by locals and tends to be more reflective of reality.

Kia ora, kia kaha (good health, take care)

There are two processes in GMaps (for most facilities). One is that a Google Maps Local Guide (volunteer) notices that something needs to be added/changed and submits that to Google along with some sort of evidence to justify the submission. If the submission is relatively inconsequential and the evidence is strong (e.g. menu change with a dated photo of the menu) then that change is made.

For more substantial changes the submission is reviewed by at least one other volunteer, bigger changes need more people, before it is accepted and applied. Obviously, if the reviewer(s) disagree with the submission then it is not applied.

The other process involves someone making a submission to Google that they are the owner or manager of the facility. Google has a number of ways to check if this is correct. Once Google Maps accepts a person as the owner of a facility then that person is authorised to make any changes they like to the facility including closing it permanently.

Anyone can make a change submission to Google Maps and if that is accompanied by supporting evidence then there is a good chance that the submission will be accepted.

 

[Kathor1]

For what it's worth ... Gronze.com has marked a number of albergues with a closed sign this year. It has nothing to do with their opening season, ie whether they are open throughout the year or closed during the winter months. It refers to their long-term closure, in numerous cases from March/April 2020 until sometime in 2021 due to Covid-19 restrictions. Numerous parroquial and municipal albergues have been closed for many months now. Although they are likely to open again one day, one can barely call it "temporarily closed" anymore.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

For what it's worth ... Gronze.com has marked a number of albergues with a closed sign this year. It has nothing to do with their opening season, ie whether they are open throughout the year or closed during the winter months. It refers to the long-term closure, usually from March/April 2020 until sometime in 2021 due to Covid-19 restrictions. Numerous parroquial and municipal albergues have been closed for months now - although they are likely to open again one day, one can barely call it "temporarily" closure anymore.

View attachment 88994

Thanks.

In these cases the consequences of submitting a permanent closure is that all details about the facility including description, photos and reviews are deleted. When it reopens all the descriptive information needs to be resubmitted and the reviews must accumulate again over time.

If this is what is wanted then proceed with a submission accompanied by supporting evidence.

 

[camino.ninja]

I have their Google Place IDs:
Paderborner: ChIJX9R3-P2SUA0RsohlRy2VB-k
Urtega: ChIJX9R3-P2SUA0RsohlRy2VB-k
San Miguel: ChIJ5yuo3MpxUA0R6oGSsftp8T4


According to Google's documentation, the permanently_closed attribute was deprecated on May 26, 2020. So, that might explain why properties that was previously shown as being permanently closed is now being deleted.

Place Details | Places API | Google for Developers

developers.google.com

 

[Lance Chambers]

Would other Google Maps users please check to see if they can find these three albergues on Google Maps. Albergue parroquial San Miguel in Estella, Albergue Casa Paderborn in Pamplona and Albergue Camino del Perdón in Uterga. These three are examples, there are many more.

I have been tidying up my trip diary and pulling in information from my Google Maps timeline but I am finding that a significant number of albergues seem to have just disappeared from Google Maps. I realise that with Covid-19 in Spain that many of these are temporarily closed but normally Google doesn't delete accommodation entries unless they are permanently closed. I am wondering if there is something in my version of Google Maps that is causing this.

For me it shows up as a marker without any text. These three above albergues, for example, are in one of my Lists for Google Maps and that is why they get their own map marker but the information that used to be associated with the marker(s) is no gone.

If it isn't just my version of maps then anyone planning a future Camino and using Google Maps is going to have issues as a number of albergues that "we" think are closed temporarily have been permanently deleted from Google Maps, along with their ratings and reviews.

@Rick of Rick and Peg @David Tallan and any other techy Google Maps users would you please have a quick look and let me know what you find please.

Your number 1 Estella.


Number 2 Pamplona


and 3 Uterga.

Have a great time.

 

[camino.ninja]

View attachment 89072
Your number 1 Estella.

View attachment 89073
Number 2 Pamplona

View attachment 89074
and 3 Uterga.

Have a great time.

It seems more like a mystery how it turns up on your Google Maps when it is not in the Google Places database.

 

[Mudcrone]

Would other Google Maps users please check to see if they can find these three albergues on Google Maps. Albergue parroquial San Miguel in Estella, Albergue Casa Paderborn in Pamplona and Albergue Camino del Perdón in Uterga. These three are examples, there are many more.

I have been tidying up my trip diary and pulling in information from my Google Maps timeline but I am finding that a significant number of albergues seem to have just disappeared from Google Maps. I realise that with Covid-19 in Spain that many of these are temporarily closed but normally Google doesn't delete accommodation entries unless they are permanently closed. I am wondering if there is something in my version of Google Maps that is causing this.

For me it shows up as a marker without any text. These three above albergues, for example, are in one of my Lists for Google Maps and that is why they get their own map marker but the information that used to be associated with the marker(s) is no gone.

If it isn't just my version of maps then anyone planning a future Camino and using Google Maps is going to have issues as a number of albergues that "we" think are closed temporarily have been permanently deleted from Google Maps, along with their ratings and reviews.

@Rick of Rick and Peg @David Tallan and any other techy Google Maps users would you please have a quick look and let me know what you find please.

Gronze indicates that they are Temporarily Closed, along with several others. Maybe that is why Google Maps may have removed them.

 

[camino.ninja]

Gronze indicates that they are Temporarily Closed, along with several others. Maybe that is why Google Maps may have removed them.

If they are marked temporarily closed on Google they still show up. But neither Google, Gronze or any other source is right all the time.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

View attachment 89072
Your number 1 Estella.

Different albergue

View attachment 89073
Number 2 Pamplona

Different albergue

View attachment 89074
and 3 Uterga.

Already explained as a red herring

Have a great time.

Thanks