Smoking?

[JohnMcM]

Since I started my preparations for my first Camino next year I have found my self questioning everything around around me. (That's not meant to be a deep meaningful statement only a matter of fact). Simply, almost everything I now experience has a thought behind it along the lines of ........... "What does this mean to me and if it's important to me, why?" or, "If this annoys me, why?" and so on.

Yesterday I was on one of my training walks. This time 9 miles across some beautiful hilly country -side with the sun on my face and my Camino pack on back which made me want to sing.

I'm in the practise of stopping more or less every 2-3 hours regardless of how I feel (old military habit) to take my boots off, air my feet and change socks. Yesterday and not for the first time I found myself in company with a stranger when I rested. We exchanged greetings and started talking as you would expect. Five minutes into our conversation my new found friend took out some cigarettes, lit one and carried on talking. Fifteen minutes later we parted and went on our separate ways.

As I walked on my thoughts turned to this forum (as usual) and I realised that although I had read and learned so much about so many things on this forum from our dear contributors , I had actually read very little about the attitude towards smoking in albergues, hostels, hotels etc along any of the Camino routes.

So, my question is...................... How would you describe that attitude?

 

[lynnejohn]

Smoking was banned in enclosed public spaces in Spain in 2011. Also designated open-air spaces like playgrounds, schoolyards and some public parks. That's the law.

"The law, however, left it up to bars and restaurants whether to impose the law or not.."

Edit: This practice was only allowed in bars and restaurants from about 2005-2011. See below.

 

[Wanderer64]

I'd describe the attitude as liberal and relaxed, despite the law, especially in comparison to attitudes in North America.

I was surprised by the number of smokers, especially young European women, I encountered along the Camino. I routinely saw smoking permitted in albergue outside areas, inside and outside of bars and at cafés, frequently along the Camino walking trails.

I'm a non-smoker, but I'm not bothered at all by the vice. It was actually refreshing to not experience the kind of anti-smoking zealotry I'm so used to in Canada.

 

[Caplen]

I'm a non-smoker, but I'm not bothered at all by the vice. It was actually refreshing to not experience the kind of anti-smoking zealotry I'm so used to in Canada.

Hmmm, I tend to find clean air more "refreshing". It's a top reason why I hike.
Yay for Canada! Texas anti-smoking zealot here. But I could be considered biased since I'm currently watching both my parents die slow, painful respiratory/cancer related deaths due to lifetimes of smoking.

I walked my last Camino back in 2001, and I don't remember much about the smoking situation. Didn't know Spain had passed laws recently - that's awesome. It will surely take a while for attitudes and habits to catch up to a law though - speaking as a resident of a city with very restrictive smoking ordinances passed years ago (Houston).

As long as I'm not a captive audience to any indoor refugio smoking. Otherwise I move as far away from smokers as possible, even outdoor ones.

 

[HalfDomeOrBust]

Hmmm, I tend to find clean air more "refreshing". It's a top reason why I hike.
Yay for Canada! Texas anti-smoking zealot here. But I could be considered biased since I'm currently watching both my parents die slow, painful respiratory/cancer related deaths due to lifetimes of smoking.

I walked my last Camino back in 2001, and I don't remember much about the smoking situation. Didn't know Spain had passed laws recently - that's awesome. It will surely take a while for attitudes and habits to catch up to a law though - speaking as a resident of a city with very restrictive smoking ordinances passed years ago (Houston).

As long as I'm not a captive audience to any indoor refugio smoking. Otherwise I move as far away from smokers as possible, even outdoor ones.

I'm with you on smoking. I also enjoy the fresh air of a good mountain hike....

 

[peregrina2000]

Smoking was banned in enclosed public spaces in Spain in 2011. Also designated open-air spaces like playgrounds, schoolyards and some public parks. That's the law. The law, however, left it up to bars and restaurants whether to impose the law or not..
Look for a sign in the window as you enter a restaurant or bar telling you if smoking is allowed ("Está permitido fumar") or is not allowed ("No está permitido fumar") or if there is a smoking area ("Zona para fumadores").

I realize I didn't answer your question regarding attitude. On purpose

Lynne, the situation you describe was what happened the first time Spain "prohibited" smoking, I think it was in 2005 or thereabouts. But in 2011, they removed the optional side of things -- smoking is now strictly prohibited inside. I am surprised to read about a lax enforcement on the Camino Frances. I haven't been on the Frances in years, but I've been walking in Spain every year for a long time, and my experience has been quite different. On the Levante this year, from Valencia to Santiago, I remember only one bar in which there were men smoking. This was in a town of maybe 100 residents. They were clearly not expecting to see us, and quickly snuffed it out when we entered.

I believe smoking is supposed to be prohibited in the outdoor seating areas of cafes as well, but that's where I've seen a lot of "slippage."

 

[lynnejohn]

You're right Laurie - those signs I was remembering were earlier.. I don't remember seeing any smoking in 2011 (had to check with my husband to make sure my memory was correct in this case). Certainly none in albergues. This article seems to make it clear that the law is not "optional" any longer:

Smokers in Spain are no longer allowed to light up a cigarette in bars and cafes after new anti-smoking legislation came into effect on Sunday, January 2, 2011.
The new law replaces one of Europe's most relaxed anti-smoking legislation with one of the strictest.
There are fears the ban could hit Spain's bars hard
The measures completely prohibit smoking in enclosed public spaces such as bars, cafes and restaurants, as well as outdoor areas such as children's playgrounds and hospital grounds.
Spain introduced anti-smoking legislation in January 2006, but this gave many bar owners the opportunity to decide whether to allow smoking or not.

 

[gerardcarey]

And yet I was still able to buy a large beer and a reasonably good cigar in those bars and puff away contentedly in their outdoor areas without be remonstrated against by management or cafe patrons. Although ex-smokers would often come to enjoy the fragrance.

 

[Caplen]

And yet I was still able to buy a large beer and a reasonably good cigar in those bars and puff away contentedly in their outdoor areas without be remonstrated against by management or cafe patrons. Although ex-smokers would often come to enjoy the fragrance.

disgusting

 

[Pattii]

disgusting

hmm I kinda like the smell of a good cigar...

 

[Caplen]

hmm I kinda like the smell of a good cigar...

Gee, that's nice. Though isn't smoking one of the factors that leads to snoring and all its related health issues?

Me, personally, I'm not as concerned about the snoring. That's just one of the relatively lesser health and quality of life issues with smoking.
But no "yummy" smell is ever worth the suffering, addiction and death of loved ones. Ever.
I'm always a little confused and sad that people can be so glib and gloating about this addiction and the diseases it causes.

Well, people are "free" (as "free" as one can be to "choose" a crippling, chemical addiction) to "choose" slow suicide if they wish.
Just respect my freedom to breathe smoke-free air.

Good on Spain for adopting these laws. Hope they get strictly enforced. It will certainly make my future Camino more pleasant.

 

[tyrrek]

I think I've only seen one bar on several caminos where the rules were being openly flouted. What I have seen are people lighting up on the way to the door rather than waiting until they're completely outdoors, but that won't really lead to a smoky atmosphere and seems to be tolerated in some places. As far as I know it's fine to smoke outside cafes as demonstrated by the ashtrays, although these are becoming rare (I assume San Miguel etc have stopped providing them in such numbers!).

 

[Pattii]

Gee, that's nice. Though isn't smoking one of the factors that leads to snoring and all its related health issues?

Me, personally, I'm not as concerned about the snoring. That's just one of the relatively lesser health and quality of life issues with smoking.
But no "yummy" smell is ever worth the suffering, addiction and death of loved ones. Ever.
I'm always a little confused and sad that people can be so glib and gloating about this addiction and the diseases it causes.

Well, people are "free" (as "free" as one can be to "choose" a crippling, chemical addiction) to "choose" slow suicide if they wish.
Just respect my freedom to breathe smoke-free air.

Good on Spain for adopting these laws. Hope they get strictly enforced. It will certainly make my future Camino more pleasant.

There is no rule that I have come across in life that forbids me from liking how something smells. You have your own opinions about it. I have mine.
I am not condemning or condoning smoking. I am simply saying I like the smell of a good cigar. And I do. You go like the smells you like and I will continue to like the ones I like...ok. There its settled.

 

[TheTinkerBell]

...I'm always a little confused and sad that people can be so glib and gloating about this addiction and the diseases it causes.

Well, people are "free" (as "free" as one can be to "choose" a crippling, chemical addiction) to "choose" slow suicide if they wish.
Just respect my freedom to breathe smoke-free air...

I'm very sorry to hear about your parents' condition. I understand it is very tough to bear. Cancer is endemic in my family and many close relatives have succumed to its evil grip. But I'm a smoker and smoked all along the Frances this summer. I'm not one bit glib and gloating about it and the fact that I do smoke doesn't make me any less of a person. I fully support the smoking ban in public buildings and in some public outdoor areas. Ireland was the first country in the world to introduce the ban and after much early grumbling, we just accepted it as the right thing to do - smokers and non-smokers alike. You'll find maybe a handful of places in the whole of Ireland and Spain where smokers or bar/cafe owners flout the rules. The vast majority of us respect the law, but more importantly the rights of non-smokers. Please respect the smokers' right to smoke in lawful open areas.

 

[gerardcarey]

Just respect my freedom to breathe smoke-free air.

Please respect the smokers' right to smoke in lawful open areas.

Smokers have rights too?
Golly, Alert the Press!

 

[MendiWalker]

Smokers have rights too?
Golly, Alert the Press!

Yep they sure do. But not over nonsmokers rights.

Buen Camino!

 

[Anniesantiago]

Cigar smoke gives me a raging migraine for 2 to 5 days. I prefer NOT to smell them and have been known to stop and "rest" for half an hour in order to let a cigar smoker get far enough ahead of me so as not to have to breathe the toxic air.

On the other hand, it's been said I can smell the UPS man coming 2 miles away (STRONG aftershave)!! So I have a disadvantage.

I can barely tolerate cigarette smoke.

That said, I hate that they have outlawed cigarettes in bars. I think that's silly. Mostly because one of my fondest "drinking day" memories is of how good it tasted to have a cigarette with my gin/tonic. ::sigh::: I think they should make non-smoking areas for those who don't want to breathe the smoke and let everyone else "be."

 

[Caplen]

I'm very sorry to hear about your parents' condition. I understand it is very tough to bear. Cancer is endemic in my family and many close relatives have succumed to its evil grip. But I'm a smoker and smoked all along the Frances this summer. I'm not one bit glib and gloating about it and the fact that I do smoke doesn't make me any less of a person. I fully support the smoking ban in public buildings and in some public outdoor areas. Ireland was the first country in the world to introduce the ban and after much early grumbling, we just accepted it as the right thing to do - smokers and non-smokers alike. You'll find maybe a handful of places in the whole of Ireland and Spain where smokers or bar/cafe owners flout the rules. The vast majority of us respect the law, but more importantly the rights of non-smokers. Please respect the smokers' right to smoke in lawful open areas.

Smokers have rights too?
Golly, Alert the Press!

I find the idea of "smokers' rights" to be.... perplexing and laughable.

One's "rights" do not extend over the line of infringing on someone else's rights, as smoking necessarily does! Imagine - an alcoholic sitting down next to a non-drinker in a public area and not just downing a bottle of whiskey himself, but also forcing it down the throat of the non-drinker.

When someone smokes around me, they are making me smoke right along with them. Smokers have the "right" to poison their bodies, tar their lungs, fill all their possessions with stench and shorten their years and quality of life. Sure, enjoy your rights, despite the devastating impact it can have on your loved ones. But smoking in public around non-smokers is rude and an abuse of your rights.

Even in "lawful open areas". What does it mean if I am told to "respect" a smokers' right to smoke in lawful open areas? Do I just have to smile and hold my breath walking through the cloud of smoke of a passing hiker (or worse, in their wake) or a smoker near the doorway of a building I need to enter or in a crowded queue? If I am enjoying my lunch on a cafe patio, or a break on an outdoor bench, and someone sits down and lights up next to me, is it on me to just smile and suck it up or move? Why do you imagine that smokers' rights trump my rights in cases like these?

No, you don't have the right to harm the health or quality of life of a non-smoker. You don't have the right to make us smoke along with you. The law has some catching up to do in that regard. But I'm hopeful.

 

[Pattii]

I find the idea of "smokers' rights" to be.... perplexing and laughable.

One's "rights" do not extend over the line of infringing on someone else's rights, as smoking necessarily does! Imagine - an alcoholic sitting down next to a non-drinker in a public area and not just downing a bottle of whiskey himself, but also forcing it down the throat of the non-drinker.

When someone smokes around me, they are making me smoke right along with them. Smokers have the "right" to poison their bodies, tar their lungs, fill all their possessions with stench and shorten their years and quality of life. Sure, enjoy your rights, despite the devastating impact it can have on your loved ones. But smoking in public around non-smokers is rude and an abuse of your rights.

Even in "lawful open areas". What does it mean if I am told to "respect" a smokers' right to smoke in lawful open areas? Do I just have to smile and hold my breath walking through the cloud of smoke of a passing hiker (or worse, in their wake) or a smoker near the doorway of a building I need to enter or in a crowded queue? If I am enjoying my lunch on a cafe patio, or a break on an outdoor bench, and someone sits down and lights up next to me, is it on me to just smile and suck it up or move? Why do you imagine that smokers' rights trump my rights in cases like these?

No, you don't have the right to harm the health or quality of life of a non-smoker. You don't have the right to make us smoke along with you. The law has some catching up to do in that regard. But I'm hopeful.

Your argument is the same of every non smoker. And some points are valid. However you non smokers assume rights to "where ever you happen to be" over those of the rights of the smoker to be there as well. That is what I take issue with...and your condemnation of smokers. Who says you as a non smoker has more rights to be somewhere than a smoker. If it is a law well that is one thing. But in a situation where there is one room and two people. Who has the rights...to the room? That is what bothers me about non smokers. Some how being a non smoker makes your rights more important that the rights of the smoker to their freedom of choice which is what you are making a big huge harry deal over. If I chose to smoke I have as much right to that choice as you have to not smoke. What I don't understand is when it comes to public areas why your rights and choices supersede the smokers rights and choices. That is very biased to me. You don't sound as if you hate smoking. You sound as if you hate smokers. That is a huge big difference. Its called intolerance. The smoker is a human being with their own free will and they chose to smoke. That doesn't mean they are stupid or less entitled or less educated or less spiritual or what ever. They might be smarter more spiritual and almost mother teresa like in their approach to people ...but smoke.
So again. My question...who has rights to the room. Two people ...one smokes one does not. Got there at exactly the same time...its a public place with no smoking laws...more public places outside for either of them to be. Both people standing in there...who has rights to the room.

Why don't you leave if you don't want to be in areas that people smoke..come back later when they have gone. Especially if they got there first. If you are travelling in the wake of a smoker then why don't you stop for 5 mins and let them move on or why don't you try to get ahead of them so you don't have to breathe it. Who gives you rights to dibs on where ever you happen to be at the time. Unless its your own the property or it has an anti smoking law then know what...you are shit outta luck. First come first serve ...thats the way I see it. What makes you the one that feels you have more rights to stay?....is it your feelings that you deserver better or maybe even take priority over them?...or your absolute authority on smoking?...is it your freedom to breathe air that has no smoke it?...which by the way you maintain if you leave the smoking area.... or is it just a general hatred and intolerance for those that smoke.

They tried to do this years ago in the states with alcohol. It was called prohibition. It failed. They have tried to tell people not to smoke weed for years too. They are now making it legal in so many places. My advice is to learn to work around it because it probably won't go away. You will never be able to make people do something they don't want to...even if you make it a law.

And that is not to say I do not feel for people who lose loved ones to cancer or other diseases that were specifically caused by smoking. But I have lost several to cancer and those same diseases and they were not caused by smoking. It hurts the same.

 

[Caplen]

Your argument is the same of every non smoker. And some points are valid. However you non smokers assume rights to "where ever you happen to be" over those of the rights of the smoker to be there as well. That is what I take issue with...and your condemnation of smokers. Who says you as a non smoker has more rights to be somewhere than a smoker. If it is a law well that is one thing. But in a situation where there is one room and two people. Who has the rights...to the room? That is what bothers me about non smokers. Some how being a non smoker makes your rights more important that the rights of the smoker to their freedom of choice which is what you are making a big huge harry deal over. If I chose to smoke I have as much right to that choice as you have to not smoke. What I don't understand is when it comes to public areas why your rights and choices supersede the smokers rights and choices. That is very biased to me.

Smokers are not harmed or harassed by clean air.
But when a smoker smokes, so does everyone around them.
A smoker's "rights" include the freedom to smoke away from those who do not wish to smoke.
A smoker does not have to leave the area if it is full of clean air like a nonsmoker who cares about their health has to leave a smokey area.
It's as simple as that. Sometimes "rights" clash, and the ones with the least harmful impact prevail.

Your comparison to prohibition is silly. I haven't once said anything about outlawing cigarettes.

You don't sound as if you hate smoking. You sound as if you hate smokers. That is a huge big difference. Its called intolerance. The smoker is a human being with their own free will and they chose to smoke. That doesn't mean they are stupid or less entitled or less educated or less spiritual or what ever. They might be smarter more spiritual and almost mother teresa like in their approach to people ...but smoke.
.... or is it just a general hatred and intolerance for those that smoke.

How dare you get personal with me like that?
Some of the people I love (loved) most in the world are (were) smokers.
My grandmother who died of lung cancer.
My mother who "lives" on oxygen 24/7, with COPD, her retirement/grandchildren years are crippled. She has another case of pneumonia as we speak.
My father who is in remission from mouth cancer, but still can't break his addiction.
My dearest cousin, who has a 10 year old daughter, a year of brutal chemo and radiation behind him (for now) and a huge scar down the side of his neck from throat cancer.
My best friend, who has struggled with this addiction for years, depressed she can't break it, controlling her.

You have crossed a line. I'm done talking to you.

And that is not to say I do not feel for people who lose loved ones to cancer or other diseases that were specifically caused by smoking.

You could have fooled me.

 

[TheTinkerBell]

Paati's last post included much of what I would have said in reply. It all boils down to respect and IMO the majority of smokers out there respect the no-smoking law in banned places. There are always the dummies who don't, but you're gonna get that regardless. I'm not talking about queues or outdoor cafe seating here, but nobody, NOBODY is gonna tell me to put out a cigarette after I've hiked up the climb to O'Cebreiro, or as I'm strolling along the endless Meseta, or stopping to plunge my tired feet in a village fountain .......until a law is passed forbidding me to do it. There's no point in pursuing this any longer. It's too devisive and emotive an issue and not one that adds positively to this Forum.

 

[Laliibeans]

Your argument is the same of every non smoker. And some points are valid. However you non smokers assume rights to "where ever you happen to be" over those of the rights of the smoker to be there as well. That is what I take issue with...and your condemnation of smokers. Who says you as a non smoker has more rights to be somewhere than a smoker.

Because smokers made a choice to do that to themselves. If I chose to be violent to the next person I saw would it be my right to hit them or would they have rights to be safe? Obviously, the law says it's assault, and I consider it assault to have someone force their smoking on me. Smokers who inflict their habit on others are nothing but selfish. I know many smokers who move themselves right away from others to smoke because they don't want to infringe on others rights to not have to choke on their refuse, why is it a problem for others to show the same consideration?

Is it a person's right to beat someone else because they think they are inferior? Is it a person's right to rape someone because they think they were "dressed slutty"? You never have a right to harm others and that is what smoking does. Keep your choices to yourself. Smoking isn't a natural born thing. It's not like saying people with disabilities can't sit near people who don't have disabilities, it's purely your choice. Smokers sure don't seem to like being sprayed with water against their will, which does no harm, yet they think nothing of the discomfort and harm they cause others.

I'm not about to share why this topic is close to my heart because you have no right to know. It makes me incredibly enraged when people try and defend their selfish actions just so they can succumb to a bad habit.

 

[ivar]

I think it is time to take a big breath... and move on to other Camino related topics... I have closed this thread for now.