Should albergues only accept those walking to Santiago?

[sillydoll]

There has been a lot of discussion and concern about the enormous pressure on albergues during the Holy Year.
The pilgrims' office estimates that only 1-in-5 pilgrims on the camino will earn a Compostela. Thousands walk short sections of the main routes, or variants (like the Aragones, Catalan, San Salvador etc), with no intention of walking to Santiago. Perhaps one way to lessen the burden would be for albergues to only accept pilgrims who are walking to Santiago?
I know that it would be hard to police, but the word would soon move along the grape vine and those not walking to Santiago could find alternative accommodation leaving beds free for the die-hard, Santiago Holy Year pilgrims.

 

[KiwiNomad06]

No, I don't think this is either practical or fair. Many of the German and French walkers I met walk only one or two weeks at a stretch in their vacations- then they come back the next year and walk two more weeks. Eventually, they reach Santiago... It does not seem fair to penalise them simply because this particular two week stretch happens to fall in a Holy Year.
Margaret

 

[Canuck]

Carpe Diem!!!!!!!
Abusus non tollit usum!!!

Jean-Marc

 

[newfydog]

Thats a silly idea, Doll. I've done trips that end in Santiago, and trips that didn't. I wouldn't call one more important than another.

I don't mind them shutting out the cyclists though, we can cover the gound needed to find a place.

 

[WolverineDG]

Yes, policing this will be the problem. All you would need to do is say "Yes, I'm going to Santiago," then keep your real plans to yourself. Basically, they would be encouraging people to lie. Isn't there a commandment about that? :wink:

And if this was such a concern for the Holy Year, why didn't they do anything sooner? Kind of late in the game to come up with new rules for 2010. I'd think they'd be more concerned with the near-impassable bridge near Cirauqui....

Kelly

 

[sillydoll]

Kelly - there is no 'they'.
Nobody has come up with a new rule, late or early in the game!
It was a suggestion made by a friend who has never walked the camino himself. A group of us were talking about the concerns of the authorities for overcrowding and this guy said. "Why do they allow backpackers looking for a cheap 10 day hiking holiday to stay in the pilgrim shelters if pilgrims who are walking all the way to Santiago can't find beds?"
Made sense at the time!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I´m still with Hape Kirkeling, who feels pilgrims who can afford to stay in hostels and hotels ought to do so, and leave the donativo places for pilgrims who are genuinely poor.

 

[anniethenurse]

I´m still with Hape Kirkeling, who feels pilgrims who can afford to stay in hostels and hotels ought to do so, and leave the donativo places for pilgrims who are genuinely poor.

I agree with you Rebekah. The donativos should be for the pilgrims who are poor and cannot afford to overnight in the hotels, casa rurals or other alternatives.
annie

 

[Bridget and Peter]

I don't mind them shutting out the cyclists though, we can cover the gound needed to find a place.

That doesn't work; if EVERY refugio restricted places to walkers only however much further we rode we would still not get a place! Also, on other routes (like the Norte) where refuges are more thinly spaced grey haired oldish ladies like me need to know that at the end of a certain energy sapping hill there will be a bed to collapse into without having to ride over four or five more!! But on the Frances, where there are plenty, I would be happy to push on to another when place is limited.

I´m still with Hape Kirkeling, who feels pilgrims who can afford to stay in hostels and hotels ought to do so, and leave the donativo places for pilgrims who are genuinely poor.

The question of who is poor is so difficult to judge. Peter and I are certainly not poor by many standards. But we have also never felt able to spend a holiday paying for hotel rooms every night. It's always been camping, youth hostels and the like. On our pilgrimage, where there has not been a suggested level of donation (often the case in France, we found) or a specific fee we have always left what we feel to be a respectful amount.

But I have not yet been on the Frances where I gather there are two different species of refugios - the donativo ones and those that do levy a small charge. Does one know before staying there which is which? In a situation where there was crowding and a risk of folks being left without a bed for the night, I think we would feel the right thing to do would be to make sure those pilgrims with less resources than us got the places! Do as you would be done by! But does everyone else go by the same inner rules?

Bridget

 

[Telluridewalker]

Are you suggesting that we self-segregate pilgrims into economic classes for overnight accommodations? I think one of the basic tenets of the Camino is that, being equal in the eyes of God, we all strive for the same (primarily ascetic) experience. (Similar to the rules of the world's largest pilgrimage, The Hajj, in which dress, for example, is deliberately kept simple to obscure class differences.)

I don't have a pat answer for Syl's question, but I don't agree with Mr. Kirkeling's suggestion.

 

[newfydog]

I don't mind them shutting out the cyclists though, we can cover the gound needed to find a place.

That doesn't work; if EVERY refugio restricted places to walkers only however much further we rode we would still not get a place!

Well, it does work. Many refugios don't open to cyclists until late. They all survive. With a bike, one can get on the pavement and detour fairly quickly to a nearby town. That's harder to do when walking. I don't mind it. In my 4000km of Caminos, I've always found a place to stay.

 

[Jutta Hytönen]

I think albergues should accept everyone in. I have understood that the idea is to treat everyone equally and that would not be the case if there were some kind of inquiry about persons economical situation. If only "poor" pirlgrims were accepted in there would also not be donations of larger sums which I'm sure are sometimes given. For me the good memories from walking The Camino(s) has been meeting people all over the world, sleeping in the albergues etc etc. I wouldn't want people to miss the unique feeling of albergues. If this kind of "rule" should be introduzed it would be quite difficult to sort all the people trying to get a place to sleep after long walk. If on the other hand pilrgims would be expected to "make the right decicion" it would not be fair and propably there would be complains and quarrels of who can stay in the albergue and who is to be sent to find another accomodation.

 

[sillydoll]

I don't think Gavin (the guy who suggested that albergues be reserved for pilgrims on their way to Santiago) was inferring economic status at all.
I actually think he was having a dig at me! He knows that I am not a Christian, that I enjoy backpacking, that I love the camino and would go off at anytime to hike a different camino just for the love of it (with no intention of walking to Santiago).
He has a rather jaundiced view of what he calls 'this pilgrimage nonsense' and suggested that the albergues be left to pilgrims, not holiday-hikers (like me!)
I just wondered what you good people would make of his suggestion!

 

[Jutta Hytönen]

Oh, I see . I think that all kinds of restrictions of -who is a real pilgrim and who is not- should be kept to minimun and are against the spirit of the Camino. The diversity of the crowd I meet on the Camino makes it all more exiting! I heard from other Finnish walkers last summer about a Spanish man who went all the stages by bus and was very stricktly critizised because of that; the Spanish man stated happily that "The windows of the bus are big and clear, I can see the whole landscape that God created very well from there"! . I myself enjoy just walking and not trying to understand and valuate everything all day long...

 

[andy.d]

Sil,

this is a fascinating debate you have started.

When I was on the Levante in the autumn (and until Zamora I was the only pilgrim anyone had seen for weeks) the people along the route said I should always stay in the pilgrim albergues when these were available. I would have insulted their hospitality not to have stayed in them.

I wonder what difference it makes when you are on a very busy route?

Andy

 

[johnie99]

There really is a very simple way of separating the Pilgrims from the Tourists.

Its all down to the quality of accommodation. It is my own personal view that the albergues have become too luxurious and hence are attracting the holiday makers and a load of other "softies".

If there is an organisation that controls the various aspects of the Caminos, they should redefine what sort of accomm is available to Pilgrims. The shelter provided should be just that - shelter from the elements whilst journeying to SdC. To expand on that, I would have basic building, ceiling lights, no sockets for appliances of any type, cold showers and bed with mattress, no blankets, etc.

Problem solved immediately. the people with a genuine interest in The Camino will not be bothered, the rest will not stay there. I can assure you of that.

We walked to SdC in middle of winter last year. We had cold showers - no big deal. Camped in all sorts of places. when we did stay in albergues we were quite surprised at the luxury. I can think of one that had designer furniture. what use is that to anyone. The "better" ones were also OVER heated. Again a total pain as it just makes going into the cold outside more unbearable. Is it any surprise that tourists, guidebook slaves, unemployed and homeless are using them as free hotels.

The system is completely abused and very much has done a "Glastonbury" - overrun by people that just wish to "tick" the box and say "I've done that." The abusers can even be classified according to Nationality, some of which have a bad reputation amongst hospiteleros, but I won't go down that road.

 

[Canuck]

@johnie99,

Your proposal would be a good way to kill this particular aspect of the tourist industry in Spain.

I am sure you are aware that the ''pilgrimage'' to SDC has become an important economic activity in Spain and that as such must keep current and attrative to ''tourists''. Hence, good accommodation and relatively easy walking.

Don't turn on the hot water... :mrgreen:

Jean-Marc

 

[nellpilgrim]

I actually think he (Gavin) was having a dig at me! He knows that I am not a Christian, that I enjoy backpacking, that I love the camino and would go off at anytime to hike a different camino just for the love of it (with no intention of walking to Santiago).
He has a rather jaundiced view of what he calls 'this pilgrimage nonsense' and suggested that the albergues be left to pilgrims, not holiday-hikers (like me!)

Ah but Sil we know something Gavin doesn't-that in fact you're one of the 'Good Samaritans' of the forum, providing a paradigm of a 'Good Pilgrim' not because of who or what you are but for what you do-helping others to attempt, engage with and understand their Camino's.
Perhaps the very fact that you 'wear your pilgrimage lightly' makes it easier for others to open up to, and consider the possibility of, a spiritual aspect to their journey?
I think it would be charmingly ironic, though not without precedence, if such an evangelical role were being played by a professed non-christian 'Accidental Pilgrim'!

Nell

 

[Deleted member 3000]

If 135,000 pilgrims spend 33 days on a complete camino; and five times that number do two weeks of a partial camino; then there are about 14 million pilgrim-nights. If each pilgrim spends 30 Euro each day, well, that is a lot of economic activity, all of it "trickle up" money going to the people who provide goods and services, not the central bank. Anyone who thinks that such an economic engine is going to be intentionally turned off, particularly after the towns have worked so hard to start it up, is declaring vows of poverty for a lot of people he has never met! When the Camino becomes too inconvenient for one's taste, I would suggest not walking it. That is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

 

[sillydoll]

Johnie99, that is a very modern view of what has become a very modern pilgrimage.

In the middle ages, the hospitality offered pilgrims was grand and reflected the general high regard for pilgrims. The splendour of the buildings (monasteries and hospices) was not an indication of the status of the patron, but was considered a reflection of God’s care.

Colin Jones wrote a paper for the CSJ’s 2001 conference wherein he said, “Today’s suspicious, sceptical, and highly individualistic world places pilgrims at its very margins. Religious and communal, the pilgrimage does not easily fit into the neat definitions that define our lives. In a way, the current refuge reflects this. Simple, almost always out of town and above all discreet, the pilgrim has moved near to the bottom rung of the ladder of respectability. If a pilgrim were to be honoured now as they were by our ancestors, then the refuge would look different and be at the heart of the city.
The material care for strangers, and especially pilgrims, had a clear theological rationale. Such welcome was an image of Jesus’ own actions of drawing to himself the poor, the maimed, the blind and the lame. Meeting their needs assumed near sacramental significance as if meeting the needs of Christ himself.
Rough treatment was not only an inconvenience but dishonoured the saint for whom the journey was being undertaken and scandalised the Christ who walked with the poor on their journey to the shrine that was a foretaste of heaven itself… An impoverished Christian hospitality struck at the heart of the pilgrimage and betrayed the hope of receiving an open-handed welcome into the heaven feast"

I think this shows just how wide the chasm is between the medieval and the modern pilgrimage.


PS: Nell – thank you for your kind words. I felt a warm glow when I read them!

 

[Priscillian]

I've been pondering this over the past few days and have come to the conclusion that the idea of segregating long-distance from short distance pilgrims leads to a very slippery slope. Logistically, and perhaps morally, it just isn't viable. Some pilgrims can only "do" a certain length of the Camino at a time, returning later to do a little more. I still want to walk from Moissac to St. Jean to Pamplona having walked from Pamplona the first time and Somport the second. Would that make me any less of a pilgrim? Of course the Gite system in France is different. I remember very well my daughter and I with our cheese slices and rice cakes at the end of a table inhabited by 5 french ladies and their "coche de Apoyo": their fare was, shall we say, a little more sumptious than ours and truth to tell we hated every one of them!
Perhaps something we have to consider is the degree of security historical pilgrims had: if they could afford an inn, they went to one. If there was a pilgrim hospice and it had room they went to that. If none of these options was available they made do as I did twice, once sharing a tent and once sleeping in the portico of a church (great fun by the way: we all shared food and made the best of it). The Camino promises nothing, gives much, withholds some.

Actually, what I would prefer to discuss is whether pilgrims should have first "seating" at the pilgrim mass? I lined up for ages last July 25th with many who only just got in - to their own mass and one they had walked long to attend - and also met many who couldn't get in at all! This is just downright wrong.

So here's another question (which could be moved or not...):

Should the Pilgrim Mass be for genuine pilgrims who have walked at least 100 kls first and foremost? It hardly seems fair that "Virtual Pilgrims" (along with their embarrassing staffs and gourds) from the cruise ships should have the same opportunities as those who have truly earned the name of Pilgrim.
Tracy Saunders
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com

By the way, Johnnie, I do so agree with you especially the "Glastonbury" comment which explains the cheaters and those who show massive distances between refugios when applying for their Compostela. It is sad and such a wasted opportunity for so many.

 

[sillydoll]

Tracey, I value your opinion – to me you are pilgrim personified!
Without defending old jaundiced Gavin though, I would have to ask the question: If pilgrimage is a journey to a sacred or holy place and one walks from Moissac to St. Jean to Pamplona, what is the goal of the pilgrimage? Are you a still a pilgrim to St James if you have no intention of reaching Santiago?
The seating at all the masses I've attended was taken up by just as many locals, tourists and clerics as pilgrims. Remember, one doesn’t have to walk to Santiago to be a pilgrim: one doesn’t have to walk to Santiago to earn an indulgence, but one does have to attend mass.

 

[Bridget and Peter]

Are you a still a pilgrim to St James if you have no intention of reaching Santiago?

I just recalled the anonymous pilgrim in 'The Way of the Pilgrim', the Russian classic, whose travels were the means of drawing closer to God rather than to a destination, I believe.

 

[grayland]

Johnie99:

I reread your post several times and each time come to the understanding that you have your own personal definition of what constitutes a "true Camino" and assume that your definition applies to all. Your Camino...the one that you feel fulfills your need is not necessarily the same that others will feel.
Undo hardship (cold showers, unheated rooms, etc) do not seem to me to be something to be imposed on all. I am sure you can find some primitive accommodations along the way.
This reminds me of the discussion of whether one who walks every foot the entire Camino..but stays in hostels and hotels along the way have truly done the Camino. :roll:
I have stayed in both albergues and hotels along the way. I, personally, cannot understand the insistence that all must conform to the opinion of some others who often seem to be be saying "..if you do not do it as I did, it does not count..."
Everyone defines the Camino in their own way.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I don´t think the argument is about "everyone´s own camino." It´s about who deserves to use the albergues -- the taxpayer-funded, public- or charity-owned, volunteer-staffed dormitories set up to support hikers and bikers on their way through. They were not put there just to funnel funds into local pockets. That is what private albergues are for, and hotels and restaurants. All that pilgrim cash is not benefitting the donativo place much, believe you me! The donativo place gets the people who cannot, or won´t, pay full price for a nicer bed and bath. Nine-tenths of those who use it will leave the barest minimum donation they can get away with, which is often NOTHING.

So, if a person has nothing to donate, he deserves to stay there. The community put the shelter there to support him, as he cannot support himself. Sadly, as is often the case with publicly funded charity programs, there is a class of people who, even though they often have more than enough already, adore nothing more than getting something for nothing. They may spend hundreds on the latest high-tech hiking gear, GPS, MP3 and PPod doodads, but there´s no way they´ll spend more than 5 or 6 or 8 Euros for a bed. And if the albergue is less than sanitary, or the hospitalero was less than polite and cheerful, or if there aren´t enough outlets to recharge all their doodads (for no extra fee) they leave nothing at all, saying "it´s not worth it. The place is a dump."

They then follow their GPS to the next donativo/free place. That´s where all their friends are staying, after all, and a pilgrimage is all about Togetherness -- why should I stay in a hostel and miss all the fun? This is MY camino, after all!

I think pilgrims should police themselves. If you (and your friends) can afford to sleep or camp somewhere else, leave the albergue beds for people who cannot afford to stay elsewhere. It´s only fair. Why should the local taxpayers use their social relief funds to subsidize travelers who can afford to patronize the local businesses?

Just sayin.
Reb.

 

[newfydog]

Nice post Rebekah!

I've been trying to figure out how to say this without sounding elitist or snobby, and maybe you've helped me put it down. We can afford fancier accomodations than most pilgrims. Life wasn't always so good, but now we can afford to go in a fairly comfortable style.

I would feel bad if I didn't support the hotels and restaurants along the way as well as making donations to the charitable groups. Historically, there were all types of pilgrims. Rich ones went on horses and brough their domestic staff with them. I doubt Godescalc, the Bishop of LePuy in 951 carried his own gear and slept in the dirt. Whole towns sprung up, to support the poorer pilgrims, but also to make a living looking after those who could pay.

I'm very comfortable being a modern pilgrim who supports the local economy. The last thing I would want to do would be to take a bed from a pilgrim who couldn't afford it, or accept charity I don't need.

Or share a place with a bunch of riff-raff. :wink:

 

[sillydoll]

This whole discussion is hypothetical - there is no easy solution and even if there was, not everyone would play fair!

But, Here is a senario to consider:

On another forum a member has posted a message saying that he walked the camino last year from St Jean and it was such a wonderful experience that he would like to take his wife on a two week hike along his favourite section.
You and a friend are walking from St Jean to Santiago. You meet up with this couple on day one and become friends.
They will be going home from Carrion de los Condes.
You arrive in Boadilla and queue up outside the albergue. They are in front of you.
The hospitalera announces that there are only two beds left. :cry:
Should they take the beds?
If they do, will you still be friends!? :evil:

 

[Jutta Hytönen]

I gather there's a lot of people who walk only a part of the route at a time and they have a right to stay at the albergue as much as anyone else. There's always a possibility that the albergue is full; it's happened to me sometimes but in most cases it has been quite easy to find somewhere else to stay the night. So, I would not call off the friendship because of that hypothetical scenario . It's really a good thing that there's no "albergue- police" (at the moment anyway) who checks you in - if you qualify...Anyway; I have never been walking the Camino just "to have fun"; it's not my idea of fun to hike 800 km:s. I like to walk alone and I also like to meet new people but maybe we in Finland are crazy like that .

 

[Priscillian]

This is turning out to be a very interesting post, with really intersting contributions from everyone.
I like controversy, and the juxtaposition between Rebekkah's practical/economical post and Sil's moral dilemma is delightful. So I'd like to comment on each.

Rebekah writes: Sadly, as is often the case with publicly funded charity programs, there is a class of people who, even though they often have more than enough already, adore nothing more than getting something for nothing. They may spend hundreds on the latest high-tech hiking gear, GPS, MP3 and PPod doodads, but there´s no way they´ll spend more than 5 or 6 or 8 Euros for a bed. And if the albergue is less than sanitary, or the hospitalero was less than polite and cheerful, or if there aren´t enough outlets to recharge all their doodads (for no extra fee) they leave nothing at all, saying "it´s not worth it. The place is a dump."

These it would seem are the "Glastonbury Pilgrims" described so well by Johnie earlier. They may get a Compostela but they sure so miss the point!

Rebekah's comments about cheapskate pilgrims put me in mind of Fernanda on the Camino Portuguese. I haven't yet had the pleasure of visiting Moratinos and hope to be able to rectify this this year, although as a “MotorPilgrim” on the way to Muxia (or Ourense, I haven’t yet decided) I won’t be expecting accommodation! Neither have I met Rebekah, but from her obvious involvement in the Camino, pilgrims of all shapes, sizes, and pockets, deep or otherwise it is clear that she has devoted her life to helping others by opening her home, relinquishing her privacy, and sharing her time and her heart.

Fernanda of Lugar do Coto between Barcelos and Ponte do Lima is also just such a person. She and Jacinto and their delightful little daughter open their home to pilgrims 24/7/365. Not only that but every exhausted person who climbs her steps is received as she received the first: as though they are the only pilgrim in the world! She is simply one of the most extraordinary persons I have ever met. And she has never walked the Camino! She simply gave a Samaritan's home one day to an exhausted Scottish woman who, astonished at the hospitality, wrote to John Brierley to tell him about it. A Camino Portuguese Legend was born.

Now Fernanda also relies on donations. Your stay will be in a bed, with sheets; a couple will be given a room to themselves. Fernanda is nothing if not a romantic. You will receive lunch, dinner with home made wine, breakfast and all the TLC in the world.

But even Fernanda suffers from the Selfish and Self-Centred "I am a pilgrim therefore you owe me" syndrome that obviously plagues Rebekah at the Peaceable Kingdom. Many will leave less than they would have paid for a night's accommodation at a Youth Hostel; some will leave less than they will pay for breakfast later that day. Some, nothing at all. For those who pay fairly (and I think 20 euros at the very least is fair for room and three meals), Fernanda takes a small portion and puts the rest in a pot: "For those who can't pay."

This is the true Camino spirit: the unsung hospitaleras/hospitaleros like Fernanda and Rebekah! These are the ones who truly “personify” the image of “Pilgrim” to me. (Not me, Sil...not by any means. I'm just a writer with an overdeveloped sense of Camino research who limps along the Camino every couple of years or so, and writes books to stir people up about the Camino and Complacency!)

Now to Sil's moral dilemma. She writes:

Quote: “If pilgrimage is a journey to a sacred or holy place and one walks from Moissac to St. Jean to Pamplona, what is the goal of the pilgrimage? Are you a still a pilgrim to St James if you have no intention of reaching Santiago?”

and

You and a friend are walking from St Jean to Santiago. You meet up with this couple on day one and become friends.
They will be going home from Carrion de los Condes.
You arrive in Boadilla and queue up outside the albergue. They are in front of you.
The hospitalera announces that there are only two beds left.
Should they take the beds?
If they do, will you still be friends!?

From a philosopher’s point of you, this is truly a great conundrum. To the first, in my defense (hypothetically) I did omit that I have walked from Le Puy to Moissac in one go, and am thinking really about “joining up the dots” of shoe leather to St. James by walking from Moissac to Pamplona, (or Somport) from whence I began, twice. It’s all a bit silly really. Like the great question which was rarely asked in 1999 which was “Where did you start from?” The last 100 klms can be the hardest and for a variety of reasons, not least of which is arrival!

If “The Way is the Destination”, the Goal of the Camino is the walking and one hopes, the spiritual insights gained therby. Unless, of course, the Compostela is the only reason for making the “Pilgrimage” in the first place.
I’ve got three – so what!

As to the Moral Dilemma: let’s assume that all four of you can afford to stay somewhere else, or that the next refugio is within reasonable distance. Maybe you should leave not two but four places to those behind you who are really in need of a “Refuge”, and carry on enriching your friendship!

Oh, by the Way: In Spain today it is a very important holiday: El Dia de Los Reyes Magos: The Day of the Three Kings. So
Feliz Dia de Los Reyes a todos!

Tracy Saunders
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com
(which is curently moving up to the 10th century!)

 

[Caminando]

So many angles I never dreamed of here.

But any kind of 'filtering' is in my view totally unworkable, I think most would agree, So that leaves the existing problem and what to do about it.

I have only one partial solution for busy routes like the CF, and that is to sleep outside in tent or bivouac sac. Of course you would lose the comradeship in refugios, which is a great pity. Though you might also get some sleep. Yet there are those who recently howled down a Czech couple for this. Its not a great solution, though.

I have very limited funds and cant afford hotels so this would be my way. (My current trip is offset/heavily subsidised by not spending to survive a European winter, with guest houses at 2 euros a day here).

The cyclist thing is not as simple as it sounds either - I asked a cyclist about it, who told me they were just as tired as the walkers, and were sick of being told to move on.

:arrow: