Sexual discrimination on the Camino?

[Telluridewalker]

On another thread, it was mentioned that the monastery at Santo Domingo de Silos only hosts men overnight. Is this true? And are there other refugios/albergues that bar a stay based on sex? Just curious. :?:

 

[renegadepilgrim]

To my knowledge, the monastery of Sto Domingo de Silos is NOT a pilgrim albergue and it is a Benedictine monastery with strict rules about who stays within their walls, usually meaning men only. It would be considered inappropriate for a woman to stay there. I know many pilgrims make a side trip from Burgos to this monastery since it is so famous for it's Gregorian chant....but it seems like quite a hassle and expensive if going alone...

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Many monasteries only admit men to their guest house within the walls but also have guest houses for women (or mixed) in the grounds. And has been said the location in question isn't a pilgrim albergue.

 

[bjorgts]

I stayed in Santo Domingo for two nights five years ago. Went down from Burgos. As have been said: Only men can stay overnight inside the walls of the monastry. I would not call it sex discrimination on the Camino. It is monks monastry with old rules linked to beeing a monkes monastry. But in this small town there are a lot of posibilities in hostels and hotels. I stayed in a hostel just across the street from the monastry church and payed 23€. It was two important days while walking the French route, and I never thought of it as beeing discriminated. Bjørg

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I stayed in an unlisted Carmelite convent in Figeac where the nuns had four folding beds in a room off the kitchen for men, who were restricted to that room, the kitchen, and the downstairs bathroom. On arrival I asked the head nun for a restaurant recommendation, and she said that she had none; she had been there for nearly twenty years and had never dined anywhere but the convent. I was impressed that a group that cloistered was progressive enough to admit men to the convent at all.

Santo Domingo de Silos is my favorite side trip, but it takes some time -- two days to do it right. You can boycott the sex discrimination by staying in a hostal, but a total boycott would cause you to miss the cloisters and the chanting.

 

[Finisterre]

Yes, perhaps a case before the European Court and maybe use the Human Rights Act
Santo Domingo de Silos is a weirdly pious establishment.
Who do they think they are.
It should be closed.

But please not before Easter
It is a place I am very keen to visit.

Does anyone else wonder if the world has gone mad?



(I bet Ivar tells me off for the excessive use of Irony)

 

[Arn]

Finisterre,

There is obvious "irony" and then there's ...

But you didn't go there.

Always enjoy your comments and insight.

Arn

 

[KiwiNomad06]

I stayed in a convent in Vaylats, not far from Cahors on the Le Puy route, and as a single woman got a lovely upstairs bedroom with a single bed, all to myself. I felt very spoilt indeed!
There were men staying there as well, but they were staying in a dormitory downstairs. They did join us for meals etc though
Margaret

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Right next to that lovely convent in Vaylats was one of the most colorful places I stayed in France, the Moulin de Jacky, a converted mill. The third floor of five was filled with old Paris Match magazines and CD's of all the French chanteu(r)ses.

Gîte "Le Moulin de Jacky" - Bach
Tél : 06.32.40.48.39
4 places
1/2 Pension
Ouvert d'Avril à Octobre

 

[JohnnieWalker]

JW being served dinner through the bars in an enclosed convent on the Camino Levante - not a word was spoken!

 

[Telluridewalker]

Thanks, all, for the responses.

@JW- are you serious about the silent, through-the-bars-meal?

@Finisterre- I think you mean sarcasm. Irony would be if a brother at the monastery needed medical help immediately overnight, but suffered because the female peregrina (who happened to be an EMT) had to sleep elsewhere. :wink:

@Falcon- I like your idea of simply not staying there if one disagrees with the procedure. Great story about the convent, too. :!:

Finally, in a sort-of-related follow-up for the future walkers, what percentage of albergues segregate their sleeping rooms by sex and what percentage throw everyone in together?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I only encountered one albergue that had separate sleeping rooms - La Virgen del Camino after Leon just up the hill from the airport. A couple of others did a rough screening, but went coed as they filled. Perhaps a quarter of the albergues now have separate showers and toilets. It is the new ones, so it may be a building code for new renovations.

 

[KiwiNomad06]

In Spain I only struck one place that had sleeping dorms divided by gender- in a very central albergue in Leon run by nuns in a convent. There was a separate dorm for married couples, but it was definitely only for 'married' couples. (My friends from Quebec who still had their own surnames had to convince the hospitaleros that they were in fact 'married' before they could stay in the married dorm.)
In France it was a bit different as many of the gîtes had much smaller rooms, that often only had 3-4 beds. It wasn't uncommon to be assigned to a room that I shared only with other women- and I quite liked that!
Margaret

 

[andy.d]

JW being served dinner through the bars in an enclosed convent on the Camino Levante - not a word was spoken!

I remember that well John! When I was there, I got a meal I hadn't ordered immediately after eating dinner somewhere else! And, bizarrely, they were the identical meals.

Andy

 

[Finisterre]

hmm, irony and sarcasm

I mentioned irony because I suspect a lot of readers might be 'english as a supplemental language' and I wanted to be clear that my stated position is a lie.

I hope I wasn't sarcastic.
I believe sarcasm is meant to be cutting, I was not wanting to give offence.
Except to people that damage monasteries, like Henry the idiot Eighth.

 

[alexwalker]

Hmmm...
Even in Arctic Norway we have a Carmelite convent for women only. No problem. If I hit one on the Camino, I'll sleep up against the outside wall... :wink:

 

[nellpilgrim]

JW being served dinner through the bars in an enclosed convent on the Camino Levante - not a word was spoken!

Heck Johnnie that sounds like my husbands idea of heaven ......I may get him onto this pilgrimage lark after all :lol:

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

So enclosed Sisters will shelter male pilgrims but non-cloistered monks tell female pilgrims 'no room at this inn'... Is anyone surprised at who is best at remembering 'be not forgetful to entertain strangers for thereby some have entertained angels unawares'

I am pretty sure the good monks have no problem seeing a female if they need medical help. When I was in the Kingdom (of Saudi Arabia) one night a call came to my sqdn ops center that a Saudi E3 had a medical inflight emergency and they couldn't reach their flight surgeon so wanted ours (me) to come meet the aircraft. Rubbing the dreams from my eyes I said 'call them back and make sure they understand I have girl parts and do they still want me to come out BEFORE you wake the duty driver to take me out (only those with boy parts are allowed to drive in the Kingdom). The duty sup made the call and soon I was on a Saudi E3 checking over the crew. I'm willing to bet no female before and probably none so far after me has been on one of their planes, but that night everyone was willing to forgive me my gender.

It all boils down to we are the guests and they the hosts... (and IMHO the nuns sound way more fun). Personally I considered it the loss of anyone who misses out on my funny bedtime tales and cheery morning disposition and would just move on, but another way might be dress in loose clothing, tell them you're male, and dare them to call your bluff.

 

[markss]

Please stop with the political correctness.

Not all societies have the same laws and customs as our own. Acceptable rules and practices of a given group are not always aligned with that to which we belong. If we choose to leave our world and enter that of others, we should respect their cultures, practices and values.

Otherwise stay home.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

illis cum parum dicere loqui maxima
:roll:

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Thanks, all, for the responses.

@JW- are you serious about the silent, through-the-bars-meal?

Oh yes. There are still enclosed/contemplative orders in many parts of the world. There are lots in Spain. The nuns live a life of work and prayer with minimum contact with the outside world. They lead a lot of their lives together in silence. Generally one or two are allowed to speak/answer the telephone - the superior and the guest mistress.

As advised in the guide book we phoned ahead and booked accommodation. A meal was offered too. On arrival we pressed a bell and a voice answered from behind a screen "Ave Maria". After a few minutes a nun appeared and with few words showed us to our rooms which were in a separate part of the convent. We were told wait outside a particular door for dinner at 9pm. At the appointed hour we were shown in and it is as in the photograph.A nun appeared on the other side of the bars an passed plates to us in silence.

Next morning at mass the nuns attended from behind a grill at the side of the altar and received communion through a hatch.

There are many convents in Santiago who still maintain these old traditions. The convent of the Claristas is well worth a visit - and they'll sell you delicious biscuits too!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Please stop with the political correctness.

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. You disagree with some comments, but label them in a derogatory way because your opinion is superior? Isn't it a bit politically correct to label something "politically correct?" It is the new practice of not actually responding to the question at hand, but trying to win a point with ad hominum argument.

To modernize my post to current standards, "Well, Hitler would have done that, too." :mrgreen: :mrgreen: (irony? sarcasm?)

 

[Tia Valeria]

I have resisted posting here until now.
When Terry stayed at our nearby monastery on his way through on pilgrimage he stayed in the monastery itself as a guest - pre arranged. If I go, or we go together we will stay in the guest-house. Similar arrangements hold for convents too.
What is the problem? I don't see one.

 

[andy.d]

[ [/quote]There are many convents in Santiago who still maintain these old traditions. The convent of the Claristas is well worth a visit - and they'll sell you delicious biscuits too![/quote]

After the silent meal through the bars, I visited the nearby Clarisses Convent. They insisted I took 2kg of free biscuits!

'live' story here:
http://pilgrimpace.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... an-family/

I carried them internally

Andy

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Errrr...what did you do with all that extra weight Andy?

 

[tyrrek]

Slightly depressing thread. The Camino is a great 'equaliser'. We're all peregrinos despite sex, nationality, race, social status etc. Everyone knows that nuns and monks live separately from the other sex. If they choose to open their doors to any pilgrims it should be enjoyed and appreciated, otherwise the doors will be closed and everyone will lose.

Buen Camino!

 

[andy.d]

Errrr...what did you do with all that extra weight Andy?

and don't forget it was on top of a three o'clock and a half past four dinner (both of which were russian salad followed by ham, egg and chips). It was still easier to carry it all in the stomach than in the rucksack.

 

[OldDad]

Oh Brother. Oh Sister.

 

[Anakasha]

Please don't take this as an insult to anyone's opinion, but being politically correct has gone a bit too far. As an American, the country that has taken political correctness to level where it has become an insult to other cultures, I feel that there are just certain places that not everyone can go.
I would love to go and photograph Mecca, but as a non-Muslim I'm not allowed. Same with the Mirrored Mosque in Shiraz (although going to Iran right now is probably not advisable regardless).
There are always going to be places that because of race, gender, religion, or economics that people are not allowed to go.
I personally would like to stay in the Villa La Cupola Suite at the Westin Excelsior in Rome, but as Mark Zuckerberg seems happy with his girlfriend, and I have yet to be in the financial situation to pay $31,000 a night for a room (and even if I was I probably wouldn't) my dream must remain just that a dream.
There are so many places in the world to be seen and enjoyed why dwell on the few that for whatever reason one isn't invited to.
Skip the monks the nuns sound like more fun anyway.

 

[Tio Huero]

Hola all,
I enjoyed the posts, a witty and insightful group are we. I just can't equate "nuns" and "fun." Maybe it's because of years of schooling at the (heavy) hands of the the good Dominican sisters at St. Leo the Great Catholic School. I'm still afraid of them; cross the street if I see one coming my way.

As for discrimination of any sort, I've learned to give it a shrug and accept it, or just move on. I have too little life left to worry about such.

 

[jpflavin1]

Tio:

Spent my early education being taught by Dominican nuns and then Christian brothers of Ireland. The nuns were much nicer. That said, I very much enjoyed my time with the Augustinian nuns in Carrion de Los Condes. One of my favorite Albergues on the Camino

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[colinPeter]

sisters....cross the street if I see one coming my way.

Then, I know some that I would dodge moving traffic to cross the street to greet.
Buen Camino
Col

 

[+@^^]

slightly off-topic.....
Q: how much fun does a Monk have ?
A: Nun

 

[colinPeter]

slightly off-topic.....

Yes, maybe we need a thread dedicated to lame humour.

 

[FatmaG]

In Spain I only struck one place that had sleeping dorms divided by gender- in a very central albergue in Leon run by nuns in a convent.
Margaret

Yes - they separate severly men and women... unless the men's rooms are filled up completely (this seems to happen quite often) and then the men are allowed into the second women's dormitory


Whatsoever... In general, I like to stay in monasteries, convents... because of this very special atmosphere of these places. (calm and serenity?)
As a female pilgrim, I was already allowed to spend nights in the place of a monks' community --- and I was already as well refused being a female... That's life.
In Lagrasse in France f.i. a very young brother guided me to the olive gardens where I could have camped only outside of the cloister but with admittance to a small room at the entrance of the monastry to have water, toilets etc
Well, the soil was to hard for my tent pegs and so I went to the local camping ground...

 

[Rebekah Scott]

when I first encountered this Camino thing back in 1993, I met a priest who ran the albergue at San Juan de Ortega (he went on to be famous for his garlic soup.) Conditions were pretty grim back then, the albergue was leaky and dirty, but he was fulsome and gracious to an extreme. I asked him if it was true, that the pilgrim dorms were segregated by sex, and he said No, in the eyes of God all pilgrims are equal. And then I asked him why there was hot water only in the men´s showers. And he said there are a lot more men pilgrims than women, and he only had money enough to put hot water in one bathroom, and that a dirty man smells a lot more nasty than a dirty woman!

Reb.

 

[tyrrek]

when I first encountered this Camino thing back in 1993...a dirty man smells a lot more nasty than a dirty woman!

He must have smelt me coming, 18 years before I arrived!

 

[migolito]

I'm lead to believe we should be taking things out of our backpack to make the burden lighter, not looking for reasons to take all the baggage we already have.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

I believe the OP's question was were there places on the Camino besides the one she mentioned that refused to allow pilgrims refuge based on gender. I believe we have established that the monks in question were the only ones to do that, that it is not a religious issue as similarly (or even more so as illustrated by Falcon's post) restricted members of the same religion do not discriminate based on gender, and it is rude to minimize the concern/question of the OP who makes a valid point. The facts are simply the facts, it is not criticizing the monks, simply stating the truth that other religious in a similar or more restrictive order welcome pilgrims regardless of gender. The monks do not. It is their loss, unless there is no other accommodation for women without walking much further and/or paying much more-- then the cost is being carried unfairly by the gender being discriminated against. (again, it is discrimination as the example of the cloistered nuns proves it is not based on religion or culture). I used to educate military leaders by saying 'substitute the word black for the word woman and if makes you anxious then change your thinking'. As I said before the bottom line is they are hosts and if they want to set those rules, as ungenerous as they might be, they can. Whether we let them upset us is up to us, and since they seem to be the only place that does it they are pretty insignificant.

 

[CaminoGen]

Ok, wow...I resisted posting on this subject but I think this is going too far... The monks are not running a business here; they are welcoming people in what is their house

 

[Arn]

I'm reminded of a poem written a very long time ago. I don't remember the context, though I think it had to do with disagreeing with the person who makes the rules, and the probability you will change their mind.

Some say I have an ax to grind
Others, it’s just the cross I bear
Me thinks it’s likely neither
Though maybe both
But I don’t really care

You see it’s my opinion
That matters most to me
I may be wrong
I could be right
It’s just the way I see

Never argue with a drunk
A priest, a nun or both
Today…the Rule is sacrosanct
Father, Son
And Holy Ghost
Annon

On that light note...lest we go off looking for that ax, or opinion different from what we, individually or in concert may hold as true or fact, let's agree to disagree and move on.

Rules are rules, until the one in charge finds good reason to change them.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Like most men I hold certain cherished beliefs which I think valid because they follow logically from known and obvious facts. It often distresses me to find than an intimate friend of mine rejects one or other of these beliefs, even after I have laid before him all the relevant facts and have repeatedly retraced for his benefit the logical steps that ought to convince a reasonable mind. It may happen (is almost sure to, in fact) that he cannot refute my arguments. No matter. Convinced against his will, he is of the same opinion still; and I realize at last that his mind is, unfortunately, no entirely open. Some perverse emotion, some deep-seated prejudice or unexamined preconception blinds him to the truth.

The disturbing prejudice which leads my friend to wrong conclusions I readily forgive because I understand it. It is a minor error into which I myself, but for the grace of some happy chance, might have fallen.

hubris from Carl Becker

 

[renegadepilgrim]

I believe the OP's question was were there places on the Camino besides the one she mentioned that refused to allow pilgrims refuge based on gender. I believe we have established that the monks in question were the only ones to do that, that it is not a religious issue as similarly (or even more so as illustrated by Falcon's post) restricted members of the same religion do not discriminate based on gender, and it is rude to minimize the concern/question of the OP who makes a valid point. The facts are simply the facts, it is not criticizing the monks, simply stating the truth that other religious in a similar or more restrictive order welcome pilgrims regardless of gender. The monks do not.

One minor detail you seem to forget. The monastery in question is NOT on the Camino and is NOT an albergue...so aside from the Benedictine Convent in Leon, I think it has been established there are not any other albergues which separate genders (even the albergue in Samos is mixed, although it is not "in" the monastery grounds per se). If you want to have fun, read the Rule of St. Benedict. It might give you a little insight onto why they do the things they do. While Benedictines are known for their hospitality, it is also within reason to expect limitations on that hospitality, especially in this world we live in, and especially for the monastery in question, which grew quite famous after their CD release in the 1990's.

 

[dougfitz]

snip
If you want to have fun, read the Rule of St. Benedict. It might give you a little insight onto why they do the things they do. While Benedictines are known for their hospitality, it is also within reason to expect limitations on that hospitality, especially in this world we live in, and especially for the monastery in question, which grew quite famous after their CD release in the 1990's.

Fancy suggesting we have fun, and not telling us where to go to find it! The Rule of St Benedict can be found at this site -->> http://www.osb.org/rb/. There are various translations at the links.

 

[renegadepilgrim]

Why must I provide all the information when our friend Google will do the work for us?

 

[Telluridewalker]

especially in this world we live in, and especially for the monastery in question, which grew quite famous after their CD release in the 1990's.

Monks got groupies?! Now we're talkin'... :lol:

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Again, the issue is not separating men from women, it is refusing to allow a person a bed based solely on a person's affiliation--the definition of discrimination. I'm sorry if that is disturbing to hear, and again, I stressed it is their right, and that I had no interest in changing their minds, nor did it seem the OP wanted change.

It is just a simple statement of fact--and also a simple statement of fact that some enclosed nuns allow men as guests--i don't know if they are an albergue and i don't care. It is as I have repeatedly said, the monks right to discriminate by gender ( please unknot your panties and look up the definition of discrimination) just as it is my right to my opinion of the practice ( which is BTW that excluding people is not as good as including them), my right not to let how others treat me affect me negatively, and my right to go somewhere I am happy.

The original question, and a good one, was are there places where you might be discriminated against based on gender ( not segregated but actually refused a place to stay) which is handy to know when you are tired. I bought the CD when released almost 20 years ago...ive read the in-person is not nearly as good but the reviewer could be wrong...

 

[renegadepilgrim]

On another thread, it was mentioned that the monastery at Santo Domingo de Silos only hosts men overnight. Is this true? And are there other refugios/albergues that bar a stay based on sex? Just curious. :?:

Smallest_Sparrow, as you can see in the original post, Telluridewalker thought the monastery is somehow affiliated with the Camino. It is not. It is a good distance south of the Camino from Burgos. You seem to be obsessed with the whole discrimination aspect of this, which is fine, but it really is not applicable to the Camino.

Read the Rule. I do not know of many (if any) Benedictine monasteries or convents that allow opposite gendered people to stay within the confines of the cloister. This is their history. This is their tradition. Many of them will have guest houses where people of opposite gender can stay. Perhaps the monks of Santo Domingo de Silos do not feel the need to have this. That is their choice.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

I have read the Rule, in this case 53 applies: Omnes supervenientes hospites tamquam Christus suscipiantur, quia ipse dicturus est: Hospis fui et suscepistis me. Et omnibus congruus honor exhibeatur, maxime domesticis fidei et peregrinis...Pauperum et peregrinorum maxime susceptioni cura sollicite exhibeatur, quia in ipsis magis Christus suscipitur; nam divitum terror ipse sibi exigit honorem.

I recognise the discrimination (again, unknot panties, read the definition) but it doesn't bother me. what does bother me is people who "quote" sources they haven't read in order to justify their own limited knowledge. there is actually nothing in the Rule, any of the caputs, regarding opposite genders. And if the reason to prevent temptation, then it really should be males prevented from staying if we are to judge by the news and the law suits.

 

[markss]

The definition of words can take on a broader and at certain times altered meaning based on context in which they are used. The words “sexual discrimination”, beyond a narrow definition of the word discrimination, are very often used to describe a devaluation of a people of one sex or the other, generally considered an undesirable attitude or attribute for one to practice. My guess is that such is not the intent of these monks. While that was not the inference in the original post, it clearly was in a few subsequent posts, despite all of the coy wordplay.

We are indeed all entitled to our opinions. I’m just not quite understanding the relevance of comparisons with Hitler nor the practices of the US Military medical operations in the Middle East to all of this. On the issue of superiority of opinion, as differing as they may be I would hope that each of us believes our opinion as superior. If not then why would you hold onto it? That’s not a disregard for another’s right to a conflicting point of view.

Back to the Camino: I find it refreshing to spend some time in a place where people don’t seem to ‘get their panties in a knot’ with practices that might not go over very well at home, such as traditions of some monks. As much as I love my own country, at the same time it’s nice to know that there remain parts of the world that don’t necessarily feel a compulsion to comply with United States or America guidelines and dictates of social behavior. Spain is still getting over that Franco character – give the people a break (perhaps this is where that Hitler thing comes in?!). Cultural differences of values are one of the many graces of the Camino! If we can’t celebrate all of them, hopefully we can at least respect them.

Warning: On public lands throughout the Camino are countless religious statues and crosses openly on display. Can anyone imagine the outcry if this would happen on United States public property! The “politically correct” (intended in a pejorative sense to be sure) enforcement team would have those crosses down before you could snap a photo.

 

[renegadepilgrim]

I have read the Rule, in this case 53 applies: Omnes supervenientes hospites tamquam Christus suscipiantur, quia ipse dicturus est: Hospis fui et suscepistis me. Et omnibus congruus honor exhibeatur, maxime domesticis fidei et peregrinis...Pauperum et peregrinorum maxime susceptioni cura sollicite exhibeatur, quia in ipsis magis Christus suscipitur; nam divitum terror ipse sibi exigit honorem.

I recognise the discrimination (again, unknot panties, read the definition) but it doesn't bother me. what does bother me is people who "quote" sources they haven't read in order to justify their own limited knowledge. there is actually nothing in the Rule, any of the caputs, regarding opposite genders. And if the reason to prevent temptation, then it really should be males prevented from staying if we are to judge by the news and the law suits.

Ooooh Latin! Thanks for showing your intellectual superiority (yeah, my tongue is firmly planted in cheek on this one, not to be confused with where my panties are according to you). I speak American English and I don't feel like using Google Translate on this one. So you refer to Chapter 53, which refers to receiving one as if they were Christ, a hallmark of Benedictine Hospitality, yet you forget to mention the remainder of the Chapter about the guesthouse and how things must remain separate to maintain the rhythm of the monastery. I have read The Rule and I have spent a considerable amount of time in Benedictine monasteries (of women) so, yeah, I am going to defend their practices til I am blue in the face. This article does a great job of explaining it in English: http://www.osb.org/aba/law/mll12.htm

So, while I appreciate your protest, the Benedictines could care less about what you think. Because it is not about YOU, it is about the good of the monastery and the prayer life of the monks. This particular monastery is rather famous and has set good boundaries so as to NOT disturb the life of ora et labora (oops, I used two latin words I know!), two important principles of their religious life. You can call it sexual discrimination or you can respect their belief system and leave it at that.

But now I see what the real issue is here....hatred of the Catholic Church. Why didn't you say so from the very beginning? I would have stopped engaging you a long time ago....

 

[ivar]

I think we are a bit of topic and things are getting a bit heated...

Will close this thread and open it in a few days.

Buen Camino!
Ivar