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Second Camino Left me feeling Unfulfilled

Angus137

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Time of past OR future Camino
Camino Frances
In March 2018 I took a month off work to celebrate my 50th and walked the Camino Frances from SJPdP to SdC. It was the life-changing event that is well documented in this Forum – I returned home full of joy and positivity.

Soon after returning, I planned a second Camino for 2023, after 5 years, and decided to go at Christmas because work is so quiet then and my family were happy with that – I asked this Forum about which route would have most amenities open over Christmas and the recommendation was the Portuguese. I flew to Porto on 16th December and started out the next day arriving in SdC on Christmas day.

Curiously despite looking forward to it for 5 years when I started planning it, I had a nagging doubt that it wouldn’t be like last time, but I have returned feeling very despondent as I felt none of the Camino joy.

I didn’t enjoy the walk out of sub-urban Porto so maybe not a good start and the limited open accommodation meant that I was often alone in hostels and had a few nights in hotels. I found the Portuguese rather unfriendly in comparison with the Spanish and very little pilgrim engagement, nothing like the love & camaraderie of the Frances – I felt as if I was just on a long walk. There were few other pilgrims – I only walked with one couple and a single Dutch woman. The positives was that the weather was gorgeous and much of the route was lovely passing through some historic towns.

I won’t give up – I have bought the guides for the Via del Plata, Le Puy and Via Francigena and I will go for the full month in Spring or Autumn and stay in the hostels but I would love to hear your views and wisdom on why I am so disappointed. My son warned me against “chasing the dragon” and he was quite right!
 
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I did Camino Francis summer 2019 when I turned 50 and did the Portuguese route this past summer. I had some of the same feelings with the second camino on the Portuguese route. I did enjoy the Portuguese route and was glad I did it, but with this second time around it was like the "magic" of the camino wasn't there - I don't know how else to explain it.

Like you I am planning another - I was thinking about the doing the English route in a few years.
 
From your comments it sounds as if meeting and engaging with other pilgrims was a major part of your first Camino which you missed on the second. If that is an important element for you then a midwinter Camino is not ideal. No Camino route is busy then. Not even the Frances. A winter Camino suits me because I am a solitary by nature. Having discovered that you are not then you are now better placed to choose a route and time that fits your needs. Maybe the Frances again? Or a main-season walk on one of the Portugues variants. I would not be looking at the lesser-walked paths in your position.
 
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Angus,
My first camino was the same SJPdP- Santiago (and Finisterre). I couldn't believe the incredible people I met, the apparent magic/luck of the camino always somehow managing to provide food, beds, warmth in Winter (before the days you could plan/check on the internet). It all worked as if there was an invisible guiding benevolent hand. There were two groups that emerged and which I walked with and were interchangeable - all a diverse mix of people of different ages, nationalities and backgrounds with so much generosity and camino love. I guess you had some of this too!
On my last night, in mid-December, I had returned from Finisterre alone - everyone I knew had already departed. I was dimly aware there were five others in the empty concrete colossus of Monte de Gozo. My head was swimming with emotions and ideas and I just sat alone in the dormitory absentmidedly looking for bits of chocolate and nuts in the bottom of my pack that would see me through to my flight the next morning. One of the older Italian guys asked me to come into the kitchen There I found a place laid for me and food and drink about to be served. It was just second nature fo these guys to include everyone, especially someone by themselves. And that's the lesson I learned. Your mission now is to go back and look out for the newcomers and offer them unconditional kindness, returning a little of the magic that was given to you. The journey where the camino gave everything to you finished in 2018, but you can still tap back into that 2018 state-of-heart, but it in a different way, which will make sense when you do it
 
I have walked several Camino's and I cannot say that any have been disappointing. Have they all been as enjoyable, no. Each one has been different even those I have walked a second time. I believe your reason for walking has a lot to do with your outcome. Expectations, different routes and the time of year can have an impact on your personal fulfillment. I walk to be in my own head, kind of a self examination. The Camino provides the environment to do this. A place without the daily distractions of life. Therefore, I prefer to walk solitary. That said, I do find the communal aspect of sharing meals and accommodations enjoyable and have met many interesting people along the way.

Many people, I meet these days, on the Camino are at some transition point in their life. While they might not find exactly what they are looking for they will discover something about themselves, imo.

So my question to you would be why are you walking?

If you are looking for community, flexibility in daily length of walk and accommodations, changing environment, variety of culture and Spanish life, the CF is the best route. These are some of the reasons most recommend the CF for your first Camino. Other popular routes, I have walked are the Norte, Primitivo and even the VdlP. The Norte, well populated, beautiful Ocean/Sea views, some touristy cities, more challenging daily than Frances and less flexibility with daily distances and accommodation. The Primitivo, well populated, very rural, similar to Norte in challenging days and also less flexible in regards to distance and accommodation. VdlP, not as populated as CN, CP but still populated, very rural, infrequent distance and accommodation, some historical (Roman).

Then there are more remote unpopulated walks. The Vasco, San Salvador, Madrid, Invierno and Mozarabe. These walks you will mostly be alone. There are also a dozen or more Camino's that I have not walked.

If you are walking to be in your own head any Camino should be fine. If you are looking for community CF, CN, CP, VdlP. Flexibility, CF. Seasonality also makes a big difference in accommodation and popularity.

All of the above said, I believe the first Camino is such a unique experience for most of us that it is difficult to match.

Just keep walking and enjoy whatever each Camino provides even the blisters, cramps, rain, mud and sometimes snow.
 
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Based on your account above, I'm not sure those would be my first choice of next Caminos. Despite the weather being gorgeous, the route being lovely, and passing through historic towns, it seems a deciding factor was there being few other pilgrims. I fear that you will also find that to be the case on the VDLP, Le Puy and Via Francigena routes.

All of these routes (and many others) have much to offer, but it likely won't be what you found lacking on your second Camino. I think your best bet is to start thinking about what you are really looking for and prioritizing and use that as a guide to choosing your next Camino. Some like solitude. Some like lots of community. Some want a long Camino. Some like a short one. I don't think any other route combines length and lots of pilgrim community the way the Frances does. The closest would probably be the Norte. The other routes that have lots of pilgrims are either shorter (from Porto, not in winter, or the Primitivo, or the Ingles, none of which are over a couple of weeks long). Or the ones that are longer, don't have a lot of pilgrims.

You can always walk the Frances again. Many do and have a great time. Just remember it won't be the same as the first. You will still, more than likely, have the pilgrim camaraderie. Just with a different set of pilgrims which will be different.
 
jpflavin1 said:
Then there are more remote unpopulated walks. The Vasco, San Salvador, Madrid, Invierno and Mozarabe. These walks you will mostly be alone.
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I think the Sam Salvador is becoming more populated (with good reason!). When I walked it at the beginning of July last year it had much more of a pilgrim community than the Madrid. Not nearly as many as the Primitivo, to be sure, but there were usually at least a handful of us at the albergue each night and I think I came across one or more other pilgrims at least once every day while walking. Not like the Madrid where more often than not I was the only pilgrim in the albergue. And I heard from another pilgrim that walked the San Salvador in September that albergues were filling up.
 
Angus137 said:
It was the life-changing event that is well documented in this Forum
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The Camino is a "life-changing event" for some people, but NOT all, and probably not for most. For many of us - even those who return again and again - we would not call it a transformational experience, even though we love doing it.

It is risky to take significant expectations with you on a Camino, as that increases the likelihood you will be disappointed.

The Camino just provides a setting for you to have your experience. I never expect the "Camino to provide" anything more than that. Some Caminos, or portions of the journey, are more inspiring or enjoyable than others, and each of us brings our perspective. Sometimes, the circumstances do not conspire to result in a fabulous experience. It is like other things in life - repeat events range from good to bad and indifferent, and the good times may seem even better because of the bad times! If you are still longing to go back, the best you can do is seriously ask yourself about your preferences and needs, set yourself up to meet the important ones, and then remind yourself to be flexible.

Angus137 said:
I asked this Forum about which route would have most amenities open over Christmas and the recommendation was the Portuguese.
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Are you sure it was this Forum? I don't see them. Generally members of this forum say that the Camino Frances would have the most amenities open in winter.

You have some excellent responses above that illustrate how different routes might meet different needs, and that the season can also be important in affecting the mood.
 
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I have walked the VdlP, CP, Mozarabe, and +6 CF's. Hopefully I will walk the CF again this spring. Why?
I don't know: It simply resonates with me, and for reasons many have mentioned earlier. It is always something new.:

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."

 
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David Tallan said:
Based on your account above, I'm not sure those would be my first choice of next Caminos.
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I agree.
I had thought that I would walk the Via de la Plata this year for my 8th Camino, but after reading reports of very few pilgrims and long distances to walk I don't think that I'm ready for it this year. I don't mind either occasional long distances or occasional lack of company (up to a week or so), but after the Norte/Primitvo Caminos last year I was craving a bit more of the social aspect of the Francés and having towns so close together that it's easy to stop when I want for coffee, a snack or a bed.

So this year's plan is for a few days the Camino Arles from Oloron-Sainte-Marie, joining with the Aragonés route. Then the Francés to Ponferrada where I will decide if I want to continue on the Francés or explore the Invierno.
 
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I walked the CP coastal last year after doing the CF just before I turned 50 in 2019.
It was not as fulfilling than the CF, but a very unique experience on it's own.

Both Caminos do have Pros and Cons, the comradery, scenic landscapes and the vast number of outstanding Albergues of the CF is the biggest Pro for that Camino.
The unique beachbound Coastal and later the walk through the lush greens of the galician hilly forests towards SdC reminded me of the last 5 days on my CF just out of pure "nostalgia".

I do think that your first Camino will forever be your best experience. Not comparable to any other Camino you will or have walked.
 
Roland49 said:
I do think that your first Camino will forever be your best experience. Not comparable to any other Camino you will or have walked.
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My first Camino was a very different experience from any others I have walked since, and from later walks on other pilgrim routes outside Spain. Mainly because so much about that first journey was totally new to me. Part of what made it special was that very novelty. Which obviously cannot be repeated. I still enjoy my walks but they have a different character and the satisfaction comes in different ways.
 
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I'm sure you'll love the end of the Chemin d'Arles and the Aragonés, I sure did!
I also loved the Invierno and I am planning on walking it again this year . Hard going if you start from scratch from Ponferrada, easier if you have a few days walking behind you. (imo)

PS: There were still a few pilgrims on the VdlP even in June, so there is some companionship. I didn't find it lonely. (Except that if you don't get on with the few people you meet, you're stuck with them lol).
You go through beautiful places. What put me off were the MILLIONS of cows lol
And apart from a couple of times, perhaps, the distances aren't that long or when they are, it's quite flat. But maybe my memory is playing tricks.
 
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Roland49 said:
I walked the CP coastal last year after doing the CF just before I turned 50 in 2019.
It was not as fulfilling than the CF, but a very unique experience on it's own.
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I agree. I liked VdlP and CP Central, (Mozarabe not so much: Lonely and cold at high altitudes in April), but they were more distant to my mind, somehow.

Roland49 said:
I do think that your first Camino will forever be your best experience. Not comparable to any other Camino you will or have walked.
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Definitely. Maybe that's why I always feel special there, on the CF, and why I return and start out with joy each time. Not as the first time; different, in many ways, but nevertheless fullfilling, in a new way, each time.

Hopefully, this year, I shall also do some payback as a hospitalero on the CF. I am waiting for confirmation. I did some payback as a volunteer at the Pilgrim Office in SdC in 2019, and would like to do some more payback.
 
Got some thought prompts for you, though I think you're already doing some of the work and there are many excellent recommendations above.

First, how did you feel arriving in the Plaza the second time? Were you proud that you'd made it? Grateful that you'd made it? Were you looking for someone to share your discoveries with? Or just kinda empty, missing your usual family Christmas and New Year rituals?

Did you spend time with the English volunteers upstairs in the Pilgrim's Office to help you process? Did you go to Mass? Eat a celebration meal?

To me, you're trying to catch lightning in a bottle twice. You *might* have already done so, and you * might* catch that lightning/dragon again, but will you recognize it if it doesn't look exactly like the first time?

Your post reads like you want to share your travels, thoughts, and ideas with people, and you did not have that opportunity the second time. Was that really the only difference between your first and second? Or were you different?

If it's pilgrim cameraderie you seek from Camino, then go *when* like minded others go, and go *where* they go. If you'd like to share your love and compassion with other new pilgrims, then go walk a little, and maybe volunteer. But as others have noted, spend a little more time this time identifying what you enjoy, and what you don't, and noting that others have different reasons for walking.

Then, conversely, when you arrive, dump all your expectations into the trash heap with whatever other items are weighing your pack down, open your heart, and walk. I suspect the dragon will find you.
 
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I have made 9 separate trips to Spain to specifically walk a variety of about 11 Caminos since 2015, and am walking another new route this spring.
Each one has been different than the others, but all are wonderfully special in their own way. Do I have a few favorites? Yes I do, but it in no way diminishes the experience of the others. Other than my first Camino on the Frances, which met all expectations from the movie "The Way", I have had no expectations of the others; letting one day unfold to the next, whatever it entails and I've yet to be disappointed. The pleasure I've received from each one has always outweighed the occasional bad day.
 
I'd say go where your heart tells you to go, not where you think you "should" go or what you should tick off some kind of bucket list, ect.

If you enjoyed the social aspect of the pilgrim community, as others said, the Francés is hard to beat, even as a second, third or Xth Camino...

But since you already consider the way from Le Puy as your next - just a thought, from my experience:

Even though there are overall less pilgrims starting from Le Puy, there are also less places to stay, so you often meet the others again and again. Communal meals are very common (demi pension in the gites is very popular). So there's certainly a social aspect to that walk and a pilgrim community feeling.

BUT speaking some french (or not) can make a big difference. Everybody around the dinner table will speak french and I can imagine that it could potentially feel a bit lonely if you don't speak any french at all.

For me, it was a perfect combination to walk from Le Puy and then continue on the Francés. Arriving in St. Jean on foot was amazing. That second Francés after having already walked from Le Puy, was very different from my first one, but still absolutely wonderful, and I walked into Santiago with many others I already had met in France.

I tend to pick my routes from what feels right at that moment / year. For some reason for me that is often the Francés, or - even better - a longer walk with the Francés at the end.

But what you personally need, only you can know.

Whereever you end up walking, Buen Camino, and I hope you'll find what you're looking for!
 
I think this is fairly frequent not just for repeat Caminos, but for some pilgrims even first ones.

Partly, it's results not matching expectations ; or on repeat Caminos, not exceeding them.

One trick is to really have no expectations, and take things as they come. This also helps to avoid the similar trap of trying to "repeat" a Camino instead of treating each one as its own thing, and as completely new.
Angus137 said:
In March 2018 I took a month off work to celebrate my 50th and walked the Camino Frances from SJPdP to SdC. It was the life-changing event that is well documented in this Forum – I returned home full of joy and positivity.
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It's more frequently life-changing than some might say, though the degree of change will vary greatly from one person to the next -- it could be something so simple as a decision to permanently incorporate hiking into your lifestyle, which will necessarily impact several other aspects of your life, or something as huge as a major change in your life, spiritual, religious, philosophical, professional, sentimental, anything.

Though really, once that change has been made, you can't repeat it !! It's one and done ...
Angus137 said:
Curiously despite looking forward to it for 5 years when I started planning it, I had a nagging doubt that it wouldn’t be like last time, but I have returned feeling very despondent as I felt none of the Camino joy.
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Each Camino is its own thing, and sometimes it can be hard along the Way but its rewards might be more elusive or delayed or you might just not understand them yet.
Angus137 said:
I didn’t enjoy the walk out of sub-urban Porto
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I didn't much like Porto either, and I had a treble dose of the suburbs, as the southern suburbia is far more extensive than the northern way out !!
Angus137 said:
I was often alone in hostels
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That sounds like paradise to me !! -- though I do enjoy the company of pilgrims and hospitaleros as well.
Angus137 said:
but I would love to hear your views and wisdom on why I am so disappointed.
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Well, I'd say just stop !! Very few things in life are perfect, and that you were given that Grace of a great first Camino is the best part of all of this. Remember that, but don't try and compare anything with it, because it will never be that good again, It can't be.

My great Camino was the second -- from Paris -- and none will ever be the same or as good ; but it's important to understand and accept that, and then on supplementary Caminos, do them with a more defined and particular purpose, but still keep it open-ended and yourself open-minded, and then you might touch the occasional echo of that Grace. But not if you expect it as a given or as a right.

Keep a generosity of spirit and a lightness of heart, and then these repeat Caminos won't be so bad after all.

----
Bradypus said:
From your comments it sounds as if meeting and engaging with other pilgrims was a major part of your first Camino which you missed on the second.
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Yes I agree with that assessment, from what Angus has written.
Bradypus said:
If that is an important element for you then a midwinter Camino is not ideal. No Camino route is busy then. Not even the Frances. A winter Camino suits me because I am a solitary by nature.
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Yes, the lesser travelled pathways and seasons are easier for we loners ...

It's good though that we can still try and be useful and helpful towards our more gregarious friends !!
 
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C clearly said:
The Camino is a "life-changing event" for some people, but NOT all, and probably not for most.
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Depends how you define "life-changing" -- certainly, only a very small minority will have a full-on mystical/spiritual/religious utterly life-changing Camino turning them to a good degree into a different person(*), but I'd say that some degree of life-changedness is a somewhat common outcome of a Camino walked in good spirit.

There are, true, some first-time pilgrims who have already learned from previous experience whatever they might have learned from a Camino, so that no life-changes at all might occur for them.

But gaining new clarity of mind or in the spirit about this or that in one's life is not uncommon, even though it may not be A-Z transformative !!
C clearly said:
The Camino just provides a setting for you to have your experience.
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Well yes and no, as the Camino itself is a part of "the" experience, and to a degree it is that experience itself.

The Camino isn't just the hiking trail in its material elements nor even its social and religious ones, but it is the totality of everything that pertains to it and everyone who is involved in it. Which from a Catholic perspective would include the supernatural persons and purposes.
C clearly said:
I never expect the "Camino to provide" anything more than that.
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One never should -- but sometimes it does so anyway !!

(*) Been there, done that.
 
I think you have your answer.
You walked the most popular route in 2018, at a fairly popular time of year.

You then walked another route in the midde of winter.
Sadly you are comparing apples with oranges.

If the social aspect is important to you:
  1. Don't walk the VdlP or another remote route. I walked it last year and loved it, but I love being alone.
  2. Don't walk 'off peak' season.
Don't give up, that joy is out there.
Just be careful to pick a route and time of year that has a good chance of providing what you seek
 
Thanks Robo - that is a good summary of all the kind and helpful comments . I do plan to volunteer when I retire and will certainly venture out again. Thanks for all the comments.
 
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I walked the CF six years ago in August, followed by Le Puy to Pamplona in August five years ago. The following year i walked Irun to Bilbao on the Norte in August but gave up due to no beds. Last year I did the CF in October. Despite two weeks of hot weather, two weeks of rain and decreased sunlight, I loved it. I loved meeting all the pilgrims and somehow it seemed more of a challenge adapting to the weather.
 
Robo said:
Just be careful to pick a route and time of year that has a good chance of providing what you seek
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This, exactly.
Choose a way that fits you, and then go with an open heart. Expectation is the mother of disappointment, so only expect that the next walk will be different from the last two.
 
Purple Backpack said:
Head to Le Puy en Velay and get the magic back again. I absolutely love that route, with the Cele and Rocamadour variants.
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I walked the Le Puy route and loved it. You will meet not so many walkers as on the CF, but there are enough people to meet. The Le Puy route is not a camino in itself, for many it is a nice GRwalking route, they don"t have the intention to walk to Santiago. Most of the walkers are french, so the spoken language at dinnertables will be french most of the time. If you don't speak french this might be a problem. On the other hand, most places where you will be staying will serve a communal meal. ( thats why you would have to make reservations at least one day ahead)
 
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If you love the camaraderie, then I wouldn't recommend the Via de la Plata. It is often very solitary with many long stretches. Have you considered the Primitivo? I agree about timing - not very many pilgrims in the middle of winter. And yes, there's only one time for your first time. Reconsider your expectations? Every Camino is different, just as you are different every time. Buen Camino.
 
JabbaPapa said:
Yes it is, despite the significant number of those walking that route with no intention of walking to Santiago.
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If you reason that way you could say that any route more or less in the direction of Santiago is part of the Camino in the eye of the pilgrim who wants to walk to Santiago it is indeed: every meter of his walk is part of her/his camino. In a more general way it is different.
 
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Hello Angus .... G'day
Wow - I'm sure we walked many days together on that 2018 Camino Francés. It was a very "social" camino, and you were well and truly at the centre of the activity (said in the kindest possible way!)
Since then I have walked the Portugués (Lisbon to SDC) in 2019 and the VdLP from Sevilla to SDC (in 2 stages) in 2022/2023. These were much more solitary and less social, but for me no less fulfilling.
I'm making plans for a shorter Camino in September this year, possibly either Primitivo or Madrid - still both probably pretty solitary in comparison to 2018!
I hope I have the pleasure of sharing the Way with you again some time. I have an indelible memory of a second breakfast of Spanish brandy in the bar at Castrojerez!
Very best wishes
Graeme
 
I did the Camino in May/June 2023 and plan to go again the same time of the year in a few years but would like to just do the Frances once again. I had an early issue (knee) on the Frances and skipped a day or two walking near Logrono to stay on track (Just taxied up to keep up with friends I had met) but then walked continuous from Santo Domingo. I enjoyed that path and accomodations very much that I dont think I would want to try another route. Maybe next time wont be as good but I definitely would like to do it again whether in 3 years or 5 years from now but at least I know what issues to plan for next time and to have better equipment available. I did not start with poles and I think that may have been a help early on. Good luck. I will be chasing it again someday.
 
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First time is always the best, each other Camino gives you something else either finding religon, inner work or bringing up issues! via La plata for me this year go easy on yourself!
 
good_old_shoes said:
I'd say go where your heart tells you to go, not where you think you "should" go or what you should tick off some kind of bucket list, ect.
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Well this is spot on, and not just for a Camino.

Much is made of the camaraderie, but of course, quantity isn't always going to equal quality. Sometimes quite the opposite, whether you happen to be a social butterfly or not. So while some of the less popular routes will have fewer people on, they could just be your people. If you are going for a party then of course this does not apply.

I wouldn't discount the CF just because you have done it previously. Go at a different time of the year, stay in different places, take the variants, and go with new eyes (not literally).
 
I've already tampered down my expectations for a second Camino. My first Camino was the Camino Frances in September 2022. It has the iconic sites of Cruz de Ferro and O Cebriero. It has a lot of people to interact with. It affected me in ways I didn't think possible. I am planning a Second Trip to Spain for Camino Hiking. I am not sure what the itinerary will be, perhaps I will do a few shorter caminos. But I know it won't be the same.
 
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We did indeed Graeme - good to hear from you - I think we did have a special camino family. Glad to hear that you have walked a lot more - I will follow your footsteps Best wishes Angus
 
So well thought out and written! It makes me even more excited for my first Camino in September! Great insight’s…thank you so much!
 
I walked Lisbon - SdC
And kept seeing the same Pilgrims along the way , at the end we had a lovely group.
Then I met people that did Porto and were very disappointed due to lack of comraderie.
I think the longer the walk the more encounters we have to make friends.
Don't give up, the magic exists !
 
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I suspect talking to other pilgrim, eating with them, comraderie, etc was a big part of your disappointment. I am very social and loved walking parts of the CF four times.
I also have a fear of not meeting enough people when I start my Porto to Santiago route on April 10th. I love quiet time for reflection/other the first 2 hours of the morning--but then, I enjoy the company of others.
But, the numbers on the Portuguese route are sooo much lower than the CF route (? 10%) though they do increase at 100 Km before Santiago.
So, for me, when I feel the need for companionship, or get lonely, I will listen to an audiobook or music. A talk to those at hostels and cafes.
I can't imagine walking the Portuguese route in the winter with numbers so extremely low. I suspect this may have contributed to your disappointment-- and now being despondent.
I hope these feelings go away. This last trip may be a learning curve as to what you want out of a future route.
 
Might I suggest an different way to experience the Camino. I walked from SJPdP to SDC in 2017 at the age of 70. As you say it was a life changing experience, in large part due to interactions with other pilgrims. When I got home I longed to return. The more that I thought about it the more I wanted to give something back to the Camino. In 2019, I trained to be a Hospitalero and applied for an assignment in 2020. Covid interfered with my plans and it was 2022 before I was able to volunteer to serve for 15 days in an Albergue. Every day was spent interacting with pilgrims, coworkers and locals. I had a few free hours every morning and was able to get 5 to 8 mile walk in the surrounding area. It was the best of both worlds! Every day I felt as if I was repaying a debt and also gaining more than I was giving.

My first Camino helped me overcome self doubts and fears. My volunteer work helped me to realize that there is no better way to enrich yourself than by giving of yourself to others. I even got to go back and walk a few of my favorite walks and ride a horse up a mountain.
 
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I'm a +1 for suggesting the CF again. If you are deliberate in your intention to try NOT to recreate your first Camino, e.g. staying in different towns, walking the alternative paths than you did the first time, and being open to a new experiences, I think you'll have a similarly enjoyable, but altogether different journey than your first. Also, keep in mind that while much is the same on the CF, much has also changed since 2018 with infrastructure, places to stay, etc. I walked the CF in '18 and again in 2021 and found this to be true. And, as someone mentioned already, it's not the quantity as much as it is the quality of the interactions you have and make. Whatever you choose, I wish you Buen Camino!
 
I promised myself over and over again I would not compare the second with the first. It was the best promise I ever made - and kept - to myself. And yes, my first was the Frances and the second was the Portuguese (from Lisbon) and both were incredibly experiences. When I walk my third I’ll make the same promise to myself.
 
But the Le Puy route is a Camino in a way that other walks in the direction of Santiago that form part of people's Caminos but are not themselves identified routes are not.

The Le Puy route follows a well-established and well documented route to Santiago that was part of the first ever Camino guide book (the Codex Calixtinus, from the 12thC if I recall correctly). It continued to be recognized as a Camino route and is shown as such in the first modern guide to the Camino by Don Elias Valiña and team in the mid-80s (you may have heard of him - he painted the yellow arrows).

Just because some people recently have also chosen to designate it as a GR route doesn't remove its centuries old status as a Camino route.
 
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David Tallan said:
Just because some people recently have also chosen to designate it as a GR route doesn't remove its centuries old status as a Camino route.
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Yes, I noticed quite a few trees, etc. were signposted with both the yellow arrow, and the red and white stripe GR symbol when I walked it. It was a bit confusing a few times because the GR signs go in both directions.
 
Transformation is what makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage. You bring your old self to a new place, and let the experience bend you into a wonderful new shape. That's why for so many, for so long, a pilgrimage is a once-in-a-lifetime experience, overwhelming and unique. You have to walk to whole way home again to really digest what's happened to you!
And IMHO, that's why caminos don't lend themselves to repeat performances. You're supposed to get to the end, and then take your new self out and make your world better with it. It's not magic, it's not medicine, not something you can come back and top-up or revisit. The trail won't change much, but you have changed. The walk will never be the same again.
Lots of people do lots of things on the caminos, but you were one of the blessed ones who was transformed!
 
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This generated a memory.

I was told or read something decades ago, when I was mourning the "loss" of my early joy in my faith, and wondering if it would ever " return." You can substitute experiences like when the "bloom is off the rose" of a new relationship.

"Your experience was a flower, that produced a seed that you planted. But it will never grow into a new flower if you keep digging it up, trying to " feel" those same feelings again."

I did better on my second Camino when I buried my ( unmet) expectations, and, eventually, I had a deeper experience than my first. But it took a lot of pain and growth in the dark to get there.

Camino does not guarantee victory, good weather, or growth...but if you go openly into it, you'll probably find growth despite yourself.
 
Angus137 said:
"I found the Portuguese rather unfriendly in comparison with the Spanish and very little pilgrim engagement, nothing like the love & camaraderie of the Frances"
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I also found the Portuguese unfriendly on my last visit in 2023. A change from earlier visits.
 
David Tallan said:
But the Le Puy route is a Camino in a way that other walks in the direction of Santiago that form part of people's Caminos but are not themselves identified routes are not.
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I quite disagree. A Camino is any one pilgrim's itinerary towards a Sanctuary, and in this case towards the Tomb of the Apostle.

This notion that only certain designated routes are "Caminos" is a completely modern notion invented over the past 30 years or so, and it is not a part of what the Pilgrimage is as such.

The traditional routes (and their "official" counterparts) were and are defined by certain places along the way, including many locations that are pilgrimage destinations in their own right, but also by the fact that individual routes from people's own homes and parishes will eventually lead naturally into those routes, because of how the road networks, rivers, and bridges are structured.
 
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I think you have identified some of the elements of a camino that you enjoy - camaraderie possibly being an integral component. I would think ‘busier’ routes might suit you better. So the Le Puy could be a good ‘fit’, especially if you can speak a little French. The VF is not flush with pilgrims (except for the Tuscany section) and I suspect the VdlP is quiet. The Le Puy has lots to commend it, amazing villages and towns and lots of pilgrim connection if you stay in gites.
 
I had a similar experience this past summer. We walked for 5 weeks from Ferrol to SdC, to Finisterre to Muxia, and back to SdC.

Three weeks in, the scenery was the same, the walking experience was the same, I was getting antsy to get back to my life. And then I realized that I had turned a corner. I was no longer a tourist but a pilgrim. A pilgrimage is supposed to be difficult. The original point was that one did it as an expiation of one's sins. So I accepted that I was stuck walking when I didn't want to. Ironically, it again became enjoyable for me, but for different reasons.

The key to a fulfilling Camino, at least for me, is to let go and accept whatever - good or bad - that the Camino offers.
 
I use the Camino as an internal experience. I believe life is all about prospective, it will give us enough reason to be happy, and enough reason to be sad. It is all about what we choose dwell on. What we choose to see or don't see. On the Camino we can truly revel in the brighter events and be thankful they came our way. Sad experiences can be broken down and minimized, and often the hard nut of it can be discarded with the use of acceptance or forgiveness. Our day in day out routines don't lend themselves to quiet contemplative exercise. I believe the Camino to be an inner journey, and I've never walked away disappointed.
 
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I just finished the Portuguese route in October, after doing the Frances in 2017, and I felt the same way!!! I'm trying to decide if I would feel the same way doing some of the other non-Frances routes.
 
MichelleO said:
I also found the Portuguese unfriendly on my last visit in 2023. A change from earlier visits.
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I’m finding this rather disturbing! With as much money as pilgrims contribute to the local economies one would think they would be welcomed with open arms. We are planning our first Camino from Porto along the coast this September. I’m beginning to second guess our decision to walk through Portugal. We chose this path for a number of reasons, the primary one being our ages. I’ll be 77 when we start, my wife will be 75.
I totally get that tourists get a little old. We came from a town of 7000 people that saw 4 million tourists a year, but we always tried to treat everyone the way we’d like to be treated with kindness and respect.
I’d love to hear others opinions about the Portuguese Camino’s.
 
MichelleO said:
I also found the Portuguese unfriendly on my last visit in 2023. A change from earlier visits.
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I noticed no difference between the two countries while interacting with the locals.
Visited several bars and restaurants that were not pilgrim centred or specialized.
North Portugals people are a bit more reserved, but all in all very friendly. As a north german I'm used to this habits but I had definitely no bad experience on the CP.
 
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Togs said:
I just finished the Portuguese route in October, after doing the Frances in 2017, and I felt the same way!!! I'm trying to decide if I would feel the same way doing some of the other non-Frances routes.
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I have walked for many years, also other routes like CP, VdlP, Mozarabe. I always return to CF as my comfort zone, for some reason(s).
 
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Rebekah Scott said:
It's not magic, it's not medicine, not something you can come back and top-up or revisit.
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Except that it's both magic and medicine - and yes you can top up and revisit. ; ) Interesting to me that the vast majority of pilgrims i've met these past few years (on camino, not on forums) have described their caminos as affectve and transformative. That's hundred of people, from all backgrounds, each with widely varying reasons for taking this long walk, I don't think it's the lucky few at all. In fact i would say they are the majority - you're just not seeing them on the forum. ; )
 
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I haven't spent much time in Portugal, but have overwhelmingly heard that the Portuguese people are very welcoming. However, they are humans and some people will have variable (i.e. less welcoming) experiences, and report their dissatisfaction on the internet.

bprohs said:
With as much money as pilgrims contribute to the local economies one would think they would be welcomed with open arms.
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This statement bothers me, but I realize that it might just be careless wording. It is suggesting that the money we spend is the overriding factor in how we are treated, and that the Portuguese people should fake their reactions to visitors, based on that. Or, that paying our way into their villages means they owe us something.

By far the most common reception seems to be great courtesy, kindness and respect. That's the most we should expect, as they should also expect it from us.
 
bprohs said:
I’m finding this rather disturbing! With as much money as pilgrims contribute to the local economies one would think they would be welcomed with open arms
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I think that you overestimate how much money pilgrims contribute as part of the overall economy.

There are some villages on the Camino Francés that might not be there if the Camino did not pass through, but not so much on the Portuguese routes.

I didn't experience any rudeness in Portugal at all. Definitely a good idea to read the thread that @Bradypus linked to.

This post especially, which applies equally to Portugal as Spain:

 
MariaSP said:
If you don't start with a greeting, it doesn't matter how many times you say please or thank you. You've been rude already.
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This is something I have struggled with. When concentrating on how I will formulate a question or request in Spanish, I may jump into it too quickly. I will be patient and polite, but might miss the greeting part. (My tendency is to get to business and not waste the proprietor's time with my small talk.) I need to remind myself of the need for a solid greeting, every time I enter a store.
 
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Angus, I cannot believe what you posted, I had to immediately scroll to the top to see who had posted it! Because, I wondered if I had posted it.
I have hiked 7 Caminos, the Portuguese Coastal sounded brilliant and came well recommended by previous pilgrims that I had met. So Sept 2023 I started from Porto. My feelings are exactly as yours, I really didn't enjoy it at all, boring is an understatement. I also found the odd Portuguese person, although rare, a bit rude.
Things changed when I jumped onto the sand off the little motor boat when traveling from Portugal into Spain. From Theron everything was good again. I continued to Santiago then went and did the Ingles before going home.
I decided 7 caminos is enough and won't bother again. However, a few months later I've got the itch again and am looking at either walking from Seville or doing the Norte.
As a matter of interest my most favourite Camino was the Primitivo, well ahead of the others.
 
I did the last 100km of the Portugues between Christmas and New Year and also didn’t get the same feeling I got from the Frances. I think it was mostly because it was winter with few places open and even fewer pilgrims. Still, I don’t expect to repeat it any time soon - instead I’ll stick to walking in the season and probably the Ingles and different sections of the Frances.
 
Life experiences have taught me that most of my disappointments have either occurred by comparing apples to oranges and/or having expectations (that I did not realize I had at the time). I’m planning my second Camino experience for 2026, 3 years after my first (the Frances). Doing Le Puy and Frances combined. I’ll be 3 years older and that difference alone could impact my experience. So…I’m leaving the fruit and expectations at home.

Whatever Camino you choose to do, I wish you Buen Camino .

“Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions.” Rita Mae Brown
 
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I’m sorry my statement bothers you! You clearly have never owned a retail business have you? As I stated we had over 10 times the number of tourists as all the Caminos’ combined. That was through a single town of 7000. I totally understand the simple economics of tourism. Portugal relies heavily on the 40+ billion euros generated by tourism. We owned a retail business for over 18 years and of course we ran into rude people on a daily basis, however we treated each one as if they were the most important person we met that day. I would expect nothing less from any merchant I chose to do business with. We have traveled all over the world and generally speaking the people we’ve met have been wonderful. I don’t expect that the Portuguese will be any different. We will treat each one as if they are the most important person we met that day because that’s just the way we roll
 
bprohs said:
You clearly have never owned a retail business have you?
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No, I haven't. What you describe sounds perfect, and is consistent with our attitudes in North America. I genuinely appreciate it. However, I just wanted to point out that the same business model and philosophy ("the customer is always right") are not quite so firmly embraced in all countries.

Understanding that might help visitors accept some differences in how they are received.
 
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I know I already said the camino isn't magic. But compared to the other routes, the Camino Frances has that certain juju you don't find anywhere else. I think it's just all those centuries of pilgrims, and all that infrastructure, both physical and cultural, centered on pilgrimage. It's a pathway custom-made for personal transformation.
 
Two things make for a more wholesome camino and that's sun and people. Good that you realised spring and autumn are better times to walk. As others have mentioned, a winter camino is a more solitary experience, really it's what you're hoping to gain from your pilgrimage experience.. The month Frances route ticks all the boxes of physical, mental, emotional, spiritual as you pass the stages, takes quite a bit of walking and some level of challenge to feel accomplished.
 
I like that description
 
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You are not considering the Norte? Why not? It’s lovely and parallels the Francés. I found good housing, great food (mostly) in villages and cities, and the ocean views spectacular, also some great swimming. Switched to the Primitivo at Gihon/Oviedo for the mountain passes. I traveled in August/September/October. Good sunny days, not a lot of rain, peach harvest, olive oil tasting. Also good company and housing. I’m hesitant to go a second time also, for my first experience was amazing, if occasionally painful. I’m also closing on 70, so truly not the same person I was then. That Camino was due to a tragedy in my family and helped me separate and regain my balance. it’s been 5+ years. If I go again it will be because I loved Spain and the people. This time I would have better Spanish, hopefully. I’m thinking Invierno/Salvador or last half of the Norte and Camino do Mar/Ingles combo. Again in late summer when it’s easiest to get away for me.
 
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Point well taken, thank you for your insights!
 
The Primitivo was like that for me. We walk on holy ground. A young 4th generation stone mason in Santiago once told me that they cut the stones by feeling each individual stone and also that one can feel the the passage/stream of Peregrinos over time in the stones in Santiago streets as you walk them, listen.
 
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I walked my first Camino - the Camino Frances - at a time when numbers walking were a tiny fraction of those today. I could and did go several days without even seeing another pilgrim. When I returned home a friend asked me if I had been lonely. For a few seconds I couldn't understand the question. The thought had never once crossed my mind. The sense of continuity and walking alongside pilgrims of previous generations was almost palpable at times.
 
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andylm65 said:
I’m thinking Invierno/Salvador or last half of the Norte and Camino do Mar/Ingles combo.
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I had walked the first half of the Norte and turned on to the Primitivo in 2016 and loved both. I always had it in my mind that I wanted to complete the Norte and it gnawed at me from time to time. I finally finished the Norte last spring and it felt very satisfying to complete it.
 
Rebekah Scott said:
Transformation is what makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage. You bring your old self to a new place, and let the experience bend you into a wonderful new shape.
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Well, that's not the purpose of the majority of Catholics on their more typical pilgrimages, parochial or diocesan -- whether they may be local pilgrimages or longer coach, train, or airborne pilgrimages to more distant Sanctuaries or the Holy Land and so on, and even in some traditions of group pilgrimages, such as the Portuguese village foot pilgrimages to Fátima, wherein some dozens of villagers make a primarily festive pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, and the similar family pilgrimages.

For many, the Communal Parish experience of a pilgrimage helping to bring the Faithful closer to each other in such visitations to other Church communities and within a certain focussed ecclesiology in Parish life is far more important than any individual transformative "experience".
Rebekah Scott said:
That's why for so many, for so long, a pilgrimage is a once-in-a-lifetime experience, overwhelming and unique. You have to walk to whole way home again to really digest what's happened to you!
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And despite the above, this is nowadays somehow particularly true of the Way of Saint James by foot, somewhat differently to the other major Christian pilgrimages which also can be made as foot pilgrimages (though I understand that the foot pilgrimage to Jerusalem & the Holy Land may have some similarities to the Camino in this respect).

Perhaps you allude to the fact that before modern mechanised transport, very few people would walk more than once to Santiago (but there were still some pilgrims who did do repeat Caminos as vicarious pilgrimages for multiple sponsors) -- but even so, such pilgrims would still go on other, more local and much shorter foot pilgrimages to more nearby local Sanctuaries.

The foot pilgrimages to Fátima, Lourdes, and Rome are also quite different in character !!
Well, except to the extent where a pilgrim could after some years find him or her -self in the need of some manner of healing or other benefit that a repeat Camino might help with. Even something as simple as the benefits of a good, long-distance hike !!

Just personally, I'll never "re-experience" my highly transformative 1994 Camino from Paris ; nor even the previous astounding event of my second arrival in Santiago on the 1993 which turned me into a pilgrim and instantly motivated the 1994. Clearly, those are one and done.

But my body now is in ongoing need of healing, and the ongoing struggle against my deteriorating health is, I've found, best dealt with (apart from medically) by walking on long pilgrimages every few years. Including a minor miracle of healing at Lourdes in 2014, in which my need for knee braces for walking just went away for good.

Even so, pilgrimage as such is not primarily about transformation and healing, but more often it is concerned with a spiritual and/or religious and/or psychological re-connection with these and those aspects of life -- which can of course for some pilgrims be completely transformative, notably if their existing connections had something wonky or "broken" about them, or simply were understood with a lack of clarity . And pilgrimage can also very often be in a purpose of thanksgiving or devotion, with no transformative intentions or purposes whatsoever.
Rebekah Scott said:
Lots of people do lots of things on the caminos, but you were one of the blessed ones who was transformed!
Click to expand...
And that's wonderful !!
 
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As I understand it, the Portuguese Coastal route is not as historic as the Central route, thus it doesn't have the long history and tradition with pilgrims. And coastal communities focus more on traditional tourists. This post from @Rebekah Scott explains why pilgrims find the Francés more welcoming.


bprohs said:
Portugal relies heavily on the 40+ billion euros generated by tourism.
Click to expand...
But the amount spent by pilgrims is a tiny drop in the bucket.
 
I am doing the Norte from San Sebastian in April this year. I've done the Portugal Camino in 3 stages, the last 150ks of the French Camino and walked from SdC to Finesterre. Is the Norte very different to any of what I've done before? Are the villages close or is it a little isolated in that way? Any tips would be helpful. Many thanks.
 
trecile said:
As I understand it, the Portuguese Coastal route is not as historic as the Central route, thus it doesn't have the long history and tradition with pilgrims.
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The section Viana do Castelo > Caminha > Valença is probably traditional enough, but further south, local pilgrims from that coast will certainly have either gone on maritime pilgrimages from their fishing villages, else turned inland from their villages towards the Central. The coastal roads generally are mostly modern ones, and there would have been no route like the Coastal to follow in the southern portions of it -- but the sierras north of Viana do Castelo and Âncora require such roads around them.

From Viana do Castelo itself, or from south of that estuary, local pilgrims will far more likely have walked to Ponte de Lima rather than on the coast, but those from such places as Carreço would naturally have taken a coastal route.

OTOH, the Coastal north of A Guarda is a 100% modern invention, as most of that coast would have been completely impassable. The routes from Baiona onwards are really just tributaries of the Central.

Having said that, traditionally pilgrims have always tended towards more practical routes, despite those coastal roads being no earlier than 19th or even 20th Century, and the current practicality of that Coastal route is undeniable. Many of the major pilgrimage routes in Spain, Portugal, France, and Italy are based around the similar practicalities of the Roman roads network, along which many villages and hostelries and so on came into being for the various travellers, not excluding pilgrims.

There's a Lisbon > Rome pilgrimage route via Burgos ; the Catalan Way via Lleida is originally a route to Rome via Girona and Perpignan ; there's the Cadíz > Rome route. These are all older pilgrimage routes than the Francès, and IMO the "history" and "tradition" of the Francès stems more in its revival from the 1950s and 1960s onwards rather than from centuries past. Other routes with similar or even older history and tradition are not so well travelled from a lack of such revival, not lack of history.
 
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Lindy Loo said:
Are the villages close or is it a little isolated in that way?
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The villages on the Norte are not isolated. They are part of a popular tourist destination - the Northern Coast of Spain with well known cities such as San Sebastián, Bilbao, and Santander.
 
Thank you. I have just ordered the Camino del Norte booklet from the Forum shop but was interested to get first hand knowledge. My daughter is joining me and it's her first Camino so I am hoping it will be amazing for her as all have been for me so far.
 
That is totally not my experience, the majority of people I met walked for the joy of walking for a longer time and meeting with people from all background, religions and countries. That walking for a number of weeks has a transformational or spiritual effect is clear but that is not per se connected with a camino de Santiago ( It goes without saying that I understand that for many (the walk to)Santiago has a deepfelt relgious/ spiritual meaning.
 
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You say that pilgrims contribute a lot of money to the local economy I don't know in how far that is true. Many pilgrims travel with a small budget sleep in albergues, don't buy souvenirs or luxury stuff they have to carry in their backpack ( except perhaps in Santiago.
My experiences in Portugal ( I walked from Porto
- To much walking on asfalt or worse cobblestones. Roads were many times narrow with no room for walkers and sometimes closed in by walls, what made the risks greater.
- After Tui the number of pilgrims increased very much. Personally I don't like that very much.
- Landscape was nice, but not very "spectacular"
- If you walk out op Porto you can follow the Douroriver and the Ocean for the first day(s) and crossiver to the central route in Villa de Conde ( or later on) After Pontevedra you could take the Variante Espiritual . It is a very nice walk and it ( can) include a boatride of 25 km which ends a few km before Padron on the original route.
- The walk to Muxia and Finisterre is a nice extension. Many people seem to see the visit of Finisterre and Muxia as a bonus and take a bus. It is a beautifull walk in itself.
-I cannot say I found the Portugues people more unfriendly than spanish people. How friendly it can be, you would feel, if you book a bed at Casa de Fernanda.
For me it was the camino I liked the least, but many people will judge otherwise.
 
I can't even count how many Caminos I've walked. The first time is special and every time after that is different because you meet different people and have different experiences. Some stand out in my memory more than others because of the people I met.

You were lucky with the weather, I walked part of the Portuguese a few months ago (Coimbra to shortly after Porto) and we had a lot of rain. That and the constant suburban road walking made this my least favourite Camino. Great food though and I met some great people.

Don't give up because of one Camino that didn't meet your expectations.
Gerald
 
I guess that was what I was after Ian - a bit of empathy! Thanks. I wont do Portugal again and go in Spring as its all about the joy of the Camino.
 
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I have not walked in Portugal. I have too may routes in Spain to walk still.

Certainly on some Camino routes and in certain villages/towns the Camino brings a degree of prosperity to the community, or for some of the community. But, most Pilgrims are a thrifty lot.

For others, the hordes of Pilgrims are probbaly more of a nuisance.

On some routes yet again, Pilgrims are not that common and somwhat of an interesting curiosity. We need to respect that and fit in as best we can.

Regardless, I think we need to respect the local people whose lives we may be disrupting and be thankful that we are able to make these journeys through their communities.
 
Angus137 said:
. I wont do Portugal again and go in Spring as its all about the joy of the Camino.
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That may be the heart of the problem - what is 'the joy of the Camino'? I think that there may be many different answers to that - and that ours may be very different. I found far more joy walking the Frances last year in January than I did in peak season a few years ago.
 
We've done quite a few caminos and have more planned. Of all the caminos we've walked, the Portugues from Porto was the least fulfilling, with a few notable exceptions along the way. Like you, our first day out of Porto was a spirit killer, and the second day wasn't any better. We switched to the coastal, which lifted our spirits. Walking along a coast with waves crashing, almost matching the cadence of heartbeats is somehow magical and restful at the same time. When we returned to the central route, it was a long line of walkers, most walking with teeny packs. It was our first experience in which those walking supported outnumbered the rest of us. I guess we found that dispiriting, even though we truly believe that there is no right way or wrong way to walk a camino.

That was two years ago. To make up for this, we walked two caminos in 2023, both taking us back to the joy of our other camino. We are looking forward to the Baztan in early June, an ancient path over the Pyrenees that is gaining in popularity but still remains with few peregrinos perhaps because one can only walk unsupported.
 
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The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
I think I was not communicating well. Everyone's walk to Santiago de Compostela is a Camino. Their personal Camino. But outside of that personal context, some roads and paths are recognized as Camino routes and others are not. The road leading from my door when I lived in Madrid in Plaza San Vicente de Paul was certainly part of my Camino this past summer. But I wouldn't say it, in itself, is on a Camino route, outside that context. Every road can be part of someone's Camino. But if you want to say that every road is a Camino all the time then the term is meaningless, just another word for road like "street".

Some roads are a Camino all the time, even in those moments when no one happens to be walking them. The Camino Frances is composed of such roads. So the the Le Puy route is comprised of such roads. The history of the route makes it a Camino in the broader sense, while the road from my apartment in Madrid is a Camino in the personal sense. Both are valid.

But I was responding to someone who was saying that the Le Puy route was just a GR, with no more connection to the Caminos to Santiago than any other road in Europe. And in my opinion, that isn't the case, an opinion supported by the Codex Calixtinus. Your views may certainly differ.
 
We walked the Le Puy camino in September. From the start at the cathedral to where we ended in Moissac, completing an earlier camino, we found this as spiritually fulfilling and as exhilerating as what I now refer to as "the second half of the Frances," from SJPdP to Santiago, which was our first camino. We now feel we've the done the full Frances, as done the first time back in the year 950. Of course, it was a 2000 mile "out and back" in those days! But we also know that the good Bishop leading the group likely was perhaps the first to do this entire route as a supported pellerin. I'm sure he was on a donkey and had his "gear" carried on another beast of burden.
 
When I go on a pilgrimage, I tend to see myself as a pilgrim rather than a customer. That's just me and I recognize many people walk the Camino with different views. It plays out in where I find I have the best experiences. I tend to find I have had some of my best experiences in donativo albergues, like Casa da Fernanda on the Portugues (which was donativo when I stayed there) or Grañon on the Frances, or Bendueños on the Salvador. In these places pilgrims are not seen as a customer paying for a service, but as a guest and pilgrim to whom one can offer hospitality.

Many of us see the Camino from a lens that is not retail.
 
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O
I thinks it’s an interesting debate. I have never worked in retail, but have been a client to a company for which we were the majority of their business and the way I was treated reflected that!

And if you spend a lot of money at an expensive hotel, your experience will normally reflect that even in the softer aspects of customer service.

Of course on the Camino we are just wizzing through, 30 nights, 30 towns, 30 different hostels, barely touching the sides, so it is somewhat unique, and our individual financial value is fairly negligible.

I have no idea if there are any thoughts are to our collective value but I tend to think there are good folks and bad folks and that will determine how you are treated.
 
Camino Preparation Guide
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
I was the one you quoted that said "that the Le Puy Route is not a camino in itself" ( which is not exactly the same as " just a GR) In effect it is just a question of definition, in itself with little meaning in the real world.
A camino can mean :
- The individual route that someone walks in the direction of Santiago
- A designed path with historic base that was followed by many thousands of people with necessary infrastructure. The Le puyroute is one of them,
- A path with is walked by a majority of people with the same direction and motives and consisting of people from different countries. This Is what I meant but did not specify. The majority of walkers I met were french and did not think of walking to Santiago. This had some effect on the experience compaired to caminos in Spain, mainly regarding the "lingua franca" which in Spain will be english. In aspects like "cameraderie" rhere was no difference.
 

You may have misunderstood, Antonious - we're actually in agreement ; )
 
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It took me years to realize that my view of many Spanish villages, towns and cities was indeed a quick wiz through. And we don't move as quickly as some who do see the camino as a race to the finish line.

In recent years, we have gone back to many of the places that intrigued us, spending more time. Last June it was a week in Estella. What a jewel of a town so rich in history, all of it tied directly to the camino, including the founding itself by settlers dispatched by the Bishop of Le Puy, a reason why there glorious church features the Virgin of Le Puy. This June we will be spending a week in Logrono. We've been there many times, but never for more than a night, always to enjoy the grape harvest festival of San Matteo. Now we will enjoy it in the Spring.

The camino for many these days is an exotic hike. The religious and spiritual meanings never enter their minds. Brierley would be so disappointed.
 
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