Schengen Question

[cecelia]

EDITED BY MODERATOR: THE INFORMATION MAY NOW BE OUT OF DATE - CHECK THE END OF THE THREAD FOR CURRENT INFORMATION.

For anyone planning to walk a camino in 2021 please note that we will need to complete an ETIAS application before entering the Schengen area. Here's the first paragraph from their website:

ETIAS stands for Europe Travel Information and Authorization system. Following terrorist attacks, the EU saw the need to increment safety. The ETIAS program has been created to improve security in the area, both for locals and visitors.

The European Council is certain that this new border and migration policy will increase security and help protect Europe from any possible future threats. ETIAS aims to increase mobility and migration of foreign visitors.

The ETIAS for EU proposal suggests that initially there will be 60 countries eligible to submit an online ETIAS visa waiver application. The ETIAS visa waiver is a travel authorization for business or touristic purposes, and will not be a substitute for a student or working visa. Any third country nationals who wish to live, study, work, or remain in Europe longer than 90 days, will have to apply for a different type of visa.

The following eligible ETIAS countries will be expected to apply for the European visa waiver as of 2021. Applicants need to meet the ETIAS requirements to get the visa waiver. Among the requirements, visitors need to have a passport from one of the ETIAS eligible countries.
For further information, you may go here: information re ETIAS requirements

My apologies if this has been posted previously. I couldn't find it in a search.

 

[Tincatinker]

Please note the link provided does not appear to be to an official EU/EC website. I would be extremely wary of providing the required, or any, data to this site.

If you want some facts try here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...ation-system-etias-council-adopts-regulation/

You will note that the new regulations are "expected" to be in effect in 2021. We'll see, no doubt, in time.

 

[SYates]

I would be careful with information from an unofficial website like this, official EU websites end in .europa.eu.
BC SY

 

[Bradypus]

It is certainly planned that the ETIAS system will be introduced in 2021. In principle very similar to the US ESTA visa waiver programme. And like that system it has already spawned a huge number of commercial sites which may or may not be intended to misdirect people into paying large premiums on top of the official fees by submitting applications via a third party once ETIAS actually exists. As @SYates and @Tincatinker have pointed out the links above are NOT for an official website and information on it should be treated with caution.

 

[Kathor1]

And you can't even blame people who are forwarding and multiplying what they picked up somewhere on social media or elsewhere on the net when you read online in the New York Times, Travel section, dated Jan. 16, 2020, 1:29 p.m. ET (that was about an hour ago):

After January 2021, as part of a new security system intended to screen visa-free travelers, Americans will be required to register with the European Travel Information and Authorization System. (Britons and people from other countries will also need to apply to E.T.I.A.S.) Getting the authorization involves registering online and paying a small fee. The E.T.I.A.S. requirement happens to coincide with Brexit but the two are not related.​

​

B******S.
Can I say that? And will Americans understand it? Sorry, but I see that this ""news"" is doing the rounds again right now, so expect more threads with this ""announcement"" in the coming days and weeks.

 

[Bradypus]

Sorry, but I see that this ""news"" is doing the rounds again right now, so expect more threads with this ""announcement"" in the coming days and weeks.

Is it time to resurrect the Botafumeiro weed fake news again or is that due to reappear next month?

 

[SYates]

Is it time to resurrect the Botafumeiro weed fake news again or is that due to reappear next month?

I am sure we could time that with the claim that the tiboleiros are actually orthodox priests and that the swinging of the botafumeiro is a mayor ecumenical event ;-)
BC SY

 

[trecile]

And you can't even blame people who are forwarding and multiplying what they picked up somewhere on social media or elsewhere on the net when you read online in the New York Times, Travel section, dated Jan. 16, 2020, 1:29 p.m. ET (that was about an hour ago):

After January 2021, as part of a new security system intended to screen visa-free travelers, Americans will be required to register with the European Travel Information and Authorization System. (Britons and people from other countries will also need to apply to E.T.I.A.S.) Getting the authorization involves registering online and paying a small fee. The E.T.I.A.S. requirement happens to coincide with Brexit but the two are not related.​

​

B******S.
Can I say that? And will Americans understand it? Sorry, but I see that this ""news"" is doing the rounds again right now, so expect more threads with this ""announcement"" in the coming days and weeks.

I'm expecting to see it in multiple Camino Facebook groups soon.

 

[Stefystar]

Hi all,
Thank you for cheer me up, love your comments.
With regard to regulations as someone well said, wait and see

 

[VNwalking]

Can I say that?

Please do.

 

[Thomas@Albany]

Please note the link provided does not appear to be to an official EU/EC website. I would be extremely wary of providing the required, or any, data to this site.

If you want some facts try here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...ation-system-etias-council-adopts-regulation/

You will note that the new regulations are "expected" to be in effect in 2021. We'll see, no doubt, in time.

Thankx for the official link--as with any regulation, it may take longer.

 

[Deleted member 76633]

Some more information on ETIAS

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-security/20180425_etias_en.pdf

If you are a frequent traveller into the EU and want to avoid this hassle, then check your genes. Immigration was very popular until recently and you may find you have an entitlement to a EU passport based on jure sanguinis.

 

[trecile]

If you are a frequent traveller into the EU and want to avoid this hassle, then check your genes. Immigration was very popular until recently and you may find you have an entitlement to a EU passport based on jure sanguinis.

That's rather wishful thinking.

 

[henrythedog]

That's rather wishful thinking.

I have friends whose Irish immigrant (To England and Scotland) antecedents anglicised their surnames because of alleged discrimination.

Ironically there have been more British citizens checking their grandparents place of birth in the hope of finding one on the island of Ireland in the last three years than for many years before.

 

[Deleted member 76633]

That's rather wishful thinking.

You'd be surprised, especially with the "new" old countries of Eastern Europe such as Czechia or the Baltic States

 

[Br. Dick Tandy ofm]

For anyone planning to walk a camino in 2021 please note that we will need to complete an ETIAS application before entering the Schengen area. Here's the first paragraph from their website:
ENTRY REQUIREMENTS FOR THE SCHENGEN ZONE
ETIAS stands for Europe Travel Information and Authorization system. Following terrorist attacks, the EU saw the need to increment safety. The ETIAS program has been created to improve security in the area, both for locals and visitors.

The European Council is certain that this new border and migration policy will increase security and help protect Europe from any possible future threats. ETIAS aims to increase mobility and migration of foreign visitors.

The ETIAS for EU proposal suggests that initially there will be 60 countries eligible to submit an online ETIAS visa waiver application. The ETIAS visa waiver is a travel authorization for business or touristic purposes, and will not be a substitute for a student or working visa. Any third country nationals who wish to live, study, work, or remain in Europe longer than 90 days, will have to apply for a different type of visa.

The following eligible ETIAS countries will be expected to apply for the European visa waiver as of 2021. Applicants need to meet the ETIAS requirements to get the visa waiver. Among the requirements, visitors need to have a passport from one of the ETIAS eligible countries.
For further information, you may go here: information re ETIAS requirements

My apologies if this has been posted previously. I couldn't find it in a search.

Thank you for the heads up, good to know.

 

[Tony Walsh]

Sounds like a revenue raising exercise.
Note Schengen Zone is not EU/EEC only. So it will note be an official EU website

 

[Kathor1]

Note Schengen Zone is not EU/EEC only. So it will note be an official EU website

That is not correct. All the rules and laws about Schengen are made by the EU and it is they who provide the information on their official websites, and their web address, as has been said already, all end in .europa.eu . The non-EU Schengen countries just have to tag along and pay their yearly contribution for the privilege. They have international agreements (""deals"") with the EU.

While the information on commercial sites about the future ETIAS system may or may not be accurate, their aim is to ensnare you to buy their services or at least get your email address and profit from your visit.

 

[Kathor1]

Despite all the fanfare, it is not at all certain that the ETIAS system is up and running in a year's time in January 2021.

Current issues are not only the usual problems (massively large complicated technical projects with so many diverse countries and their systems take time), but also legal aspects of the protection of personal data of the citizens as ETIAS will be integrated/linked to other IT databases run by the EU, some of them also still in development. Data protection is always a hot potato at EU level, in particular as the countries take diverging views on this, with some more on the citizen side and others more on the government side. Many of these issues have not yet been resolved and the required EU laws have not yet been hammered out.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

I have friends whose Irish immigrant (To England and Scotland) antecedents anglicised their surnames because of alleged discrimination.

Ironically there have been more British citizens checking their grandparents place of birth in the hope of finding one on the island of Ireland in the last three years than for many years before.

1 MILLION extra Irish passports issued last year as well as, and this is really quite incredible, an upsurge in the British born descendants of ex-patriot German Jews requesting German passports.

It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world.

 

[Kathor1]

According to the current indicative timeline (as of July 2019), and not according to what was intended or ambitiously envisaged several years ago when the EU took the decision to create this system, the European Travel Authorisation and Information System ETIAS will go live in the second half of 2022 and no longer in January 2021 as so often erroneously reported.

 

[trecile]

an upsurge in the British born descendants of ex-patriot German Jews requesting German passports.

Umm, I think that you mean expatriate.

Definition of expatriate | Dictionary.com

Expatriate definition, to banish (a person) from their native country. See more.

www.dictionary.com

 

[Kathor1]

So nothing is going to change for many months and yet it was a monumental day today. It's signed and sealed. And sobering to see that it just looks like any old international agreement that the EU does so often year in year out.

The Withdrawal (”Brexit”) Agreement was signed by both parties to the agreement on 24 January 2020:


.

 

[Tincatinker]

Umm, I think that you mean expatriate.

Definition of expatriate | Dictionary.com

Expatriate definition, to banish (a person) from their native country. See more.

www.dictionary.com

I love the english as she is spoke, don't you.
Expatriate: as previously defined
Ex-patriot: a former patriot who no longer holds those sentiments
Expert: a has-been and a drip under pressure

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Umm, I think that you mean expatriate.

Definition of expatriate | Dictionary.com

Expatriate definition, to banish (a person) from their native country. See more.

www.dictionary.com

Very much so <blushes>

 

[Kathor1]

Very much so <blushes>

I wondered whether you had made a mistake or had worded it like this on purpose as many may well have been patriots who had loved their country of birth or homeland and had been very much attached to it ...

 

[David Tallan]

According to the current indicative timeline (as of July 2019), and not according to what was intended or ambitiously envisaged several years ago when the EU took the decision to create this system, the European Travel Authorisation and Information System ETIAS will go live in the second half of 2022 and no longer in January 2021 as so often erroneously reported.

I am seeing these third party sites popping up on other Camino groups and being defended as more up to date than the EU document referenced above. Do you have a source I can refer to for the information in red?

 

[Kathor1]

I am seeing these party sites popping up on other Camino groups and being defended as more up to date than the EU document referenced above. Do you have a source I can refer to for the information in red?

I found this up to date timeline for the implementation of the ETIAS system in a GSC working paper of July 2019 that had found its way to statewatch.org, and the timeline was provided by euLisa themselves.

Now without expanding on who the GSC and euLisa are and what a Working Party is, I’m tempted to ask this question: Does it actually matter much for their readers that numerous newspapers and blogs claim that ETIAS will start in January 2021 instead of it going live towards the end of 2022? Travellers who will need to enrol when they want to travel to Spain or France etc from outside of the EU will learn about ETIAS soon enough when the time has come, and as we know the whole thing will be easy, cheap and there’s no need for any preparation. You enter your personal details, you pay, done.

 

[Kathor1]

While I was looking around I noticed that, as of 2 February 2020, ie now, there are some minor changes for citizens of the 105 countries who must have a full EU visa for short stays in the Schengen area, such as citizens of South Africa. The fee will go up from 60 € to 80 € but you can now submit your visa application up to 6 months before the intended travel, instead of 3 months previously. This may be of some real interest to one or the other forum member.

See: New EU visa rules – Questions and Answers

 

[Kathor1]

@David Tallan, I deleted my previous message because I found a better source on EUR-Lex:

The European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS)

Updated in November 2019 and it says: [ETIAS] will be developed by eu-LISA and aims to be operational by 2022. EUR-Lex is the EU’s legal database.

 

[Anniesantiago]

First of all let me say I searched this forum but had no luck. That could because I’m extremely computer illiterate so if you have a link give them to me please.

I live in the United States. I’m trying to figure out if I were to go to Spain in November for three weeks if I would still be able to go to Spain in April for four or five weeks. Does the Shengen rule apply to. Help? consecutive dates or is it per year literally?

 

[Anhalter]

This might be of help: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/visa-calculator/
(use the yellow PLUS to add another stay)

edit: to answer the question more directly: 3 weeks = 21 days, 5 weeks = 35 days. 21+35=56 --> less than 90, welcome to Schengen

 

[C clearly]

From any day in time, you count back 180 days. You are illegal if you exceed 90 of those days in the Schengen countries.

As @Anhalter points out, that is well under the 90 days allowed. If you were getting close to the 90 days, I'd say you should do an exact count of the days for those months.

 

[natefaith]

Yes, Annie, you should be fine.

It's not literally per year, or per calendar year, just to answer your second question.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Thanks folks

 

[OZAJ]

Does anyone have experience of the consequences of exceeding the 90 days? Is it really policed and punished?

I ask because I know one Australian who exceeded the 90 days and nothing was said or done about it.

 

[C clearly]

Does anyone have experience of the consequences of exceeding the 90 days? Is it really policed and punished?

I ask because I know one Australian who exceeded the 90 days and nothing was said or done about it.

I don't think it is a trivial requirement. It would be a very bad idea to make that assumption and plan as if it were inconsequential!

 

[JillGat]

I have never heard this term "Schengen" before.

 

[OzAnnie]

I have never heard this term "Schengen" before.

Surprising to hear this Jill. Over the years there have been a few threads about ‘schengen’. rules etc. (Still there in the search ).

Does anyone have experience of the consequences of exceeding the 90 days? Is it really policed and punished?

I would never exceed the allowed time in schengen zone myself. Even if I managed to get there and back without a query … these stats (days in zone) would always be available on records. I would fear being disallowed ‘entry’ at some stage if the ‘overstay ‘ was flagged ..
in 2016 when I retired I had flights and travel arranged which took up 89 days. They do look at it ; as in arrival in Helsinki, Finland … the immigration official there checking my arrival made the comment to me that my expected days in ‘Schengen’ were close and gave me recommendations if (later on in my journey ) I wanted to extend. / ie at that time he advised me that UK was not in ‘schengen’ and I could travel there additionally if I wanted to.
As it rolled out though - I had foot problems doing my Le Puy and had to rearrange an earlier flight home / so ended up many days fewer than allowed.

always best to read up on travel requirements but so much more so nowadays with Covid restriction requirements!
Buen camino.

 

[trecile]

I have never heard this term "Schengen" before.

Really? It has been discussed here quite often in the past.

Schengen Area - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[C clearly]

I have never heard this term "Schengen" before.

You come across the term often when travelling around airports in Europe - some terminals deal with Schengen flights, some don't.

 

[Gumba]

I have heard of consequences and would not go over the 90 days.

I have been recently looking at the Schengen rules, and I am talking about this from an Australian point of view, but there are different visa categories whether you want to go out and leave the zone and then come back in - a different Schengen visa is required. Again, this is from Australia.

Now, a piggy back question.....

I cannot work out if it is possible to extend. The husband and I are planning (in a few years) to walk Le Puy-SDC (the Camino after the next one lol). We want to take it at a leisurely pace with some short days and a few rest days to explore, particularly in France). In addition we will be arriving from Australia so a rest day or two before starting and a couple of rest days at the end - maybe another country for a few days before we depart. To do this at a leisurely pace, I would think 90 days would be cutting it fine. Is there a way to extend to say 120 days?

I have spent a lot of time looking but cant come up with an answer!!!

Thanks to all those who can

 

[trecile]

I have heard of consequences and would not go over the 90 days.

I have been recently looking at the Schengen rules, and I am talking about this from an Australian point of view, but there are different visa categories whether you want to go out and leave the zone and then come back in - a different Schengen visa is required. Again, this is from Australia.

Now, a piggy back question.....

I cannot work out if it is possible to extend. The husband and I are planning (in a few years) to walk Le Puy-SDC (the Camino after the next one lol). We want to take it at a leisurely pace with some short days and a few rest days to explore, particularly in France). In addition we will be arriving from Australia so a rest day or two before starting and a couple of rest days at the end - maybe another country for a few days before we depart. To do this at a leisurely pace, I would think 90 days would be cutting it fine. Is there a way to extend to say 120 days?

I have spent a lot of time looking but cant come up with an answer!!!

Thanks to all those who can

I think that if you think that you will need more than 90 days that you should apply for the appropriate visa before you leave home.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

Does anyone have experience of the consequences of exceeding the 90 days? Is it really policed and punished?

Exceeding the 90 days is known as "overstaying." You can find some entertaining and informative anecdotes by googling "Schengen overstay experience"

Overstaying - even by one day - means that you risk being subject to penalties (e.g. fines, deportation, restriction on future travel to Schengen zone). And you might also spend some time in custody, waiting to be processed.

There isn't a trustworthy answer to the question "Will it really happen to me if I overstay by just a short time, and I haven't been working illegally, and I'm passing through border controls in a relaxed Mediterranean country, and I am an older, affluent, white, tourist rather than a younger, poor, brown, migrant worker?"

My gut might say "You'll be fine." but an agent having a bad hair day might decide that "You'll be fined."

There are a handful of legal ways to spend more than 90 days in the Schengen zone - as detailed on this blog:

Your Guide to (Legally) Staying in Europe for More Than 90 Days

Many people want to stay in the Schengen Zone longer than 90 days. This is a guide to show you how to legally do just that!

www.nomadicmatt.com

 

[Kathor1]

Does anyone have experience of the consequences of exceeding the 90 days? Is it really policed and punished?

I ask because I know one Australian who exceeded the 90 days and nothing was said or done about it.

Internet anecdotes from tourists who overstayed their 90 days in the Schengen Area vary from not being detected at all (credible) to being detected at exit control at the airport and just waived through (credible) or being stopped and fined (in some EU countries only, credible) or being thrown into prison and deported (not credible if bona fide tourist and not illegal immigrant) to having an entry ban stamped into their passport (credible).

As far as I remember, entry bans should not last longer than 5 years. But you may end up in some database with a long memory. There are no EU-wide rules about what to do with overstayers. It is up to each individual EU country.

They are working on a large-scale IT system called EES, Entry-Exit-System, supposed to be in operation as of the beginning of next year 2022. If you are not a national or a legal resident of an EU country or of CH, N, IS and LI, your name, date of birth, other passport details and date of entry will be stored in a database and automatically checked when you leave. The familiar exit/entry stamps in your passports will be no more.

This is for tourists who benefit from the Schengen visa waiver system like Australians who don't have to get a proper short-stay visa and not for people from some non-EU countries who must get a visa for short trips, for example tourists from South Africa. Those who have to get a short-stay visa are in the EU's VIS data bank anyway.

In any case, I would not pay any attention to old anecdotes.

 

[Gumba]

Thanks Raggy, brilliant article/link. Given I am 25 years past being able to get a student visa (LOL) the article pretty much confirms that I will need to walk a little further each day and accept that we only have 90 days!

 

[trecile]

trecile, no visa required for us Aussies, having said that - they are bringing in European Travel Information and Authorisation in 2022....

I just mentioned the visa in regards to staying more than 90 days in the Schengen zone.

 

[Kathor1]

They are working on a large-scale IT system called EES, Entry-Exit-System, supposed to be in operation as of the beginning of next year 2022. If you are not a national or a legal resident of an EU country or of CH, N, IS and LI, your name, date of birth, other passport details and date of entry will be stored in a database and automatically checked when you leave. The familiar exit/entry stamps in your passports will be no more.

And that's the current plan for 2022 if and when EES is in operation: Your personal data, including the date when you leave Schengen, will be kept in the EU wide database for 6 months (180 days) if you did not overstay and it will be kept for 5 years if you overstayed.

 

[Kathor1]

This is from the EU Commission's official website on ETIAS:

 

[Kathor1]

Despite all the fanfare, it is not at all certain that the ETIAS system is up and running in a year's time in January 2021.

OMG. I knew more than a year beforehand that it wouldn't happen in 2021. Do I have psychic powers, I now wonder.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

OMG. I knew more than a year beforehand that it wouldn't happen in 2021. Do I have psychic powers, I now wonder.

Let's see . . . the winning numbers for this Friday's EuroMillions lottery please (happy to split winnings 50-50)

 

[Kathor1]

Let's see . . . the winning numbers for this Friday's EuroMillions lottery please (happy to split winnings 50-50)

Right know I am struggling to predict whether the moderators will close all ETIAS related threads or whether I should suggest to do so.

We've had threads about ETIAS since March 2019. Right now, the system is expected to become operational at the end of 2022. Note: operational. That means it will function. It doesn't mean that it will be in full use. I vaguely remember that during the first six months, it will be optional (But what does that mean? Who will pay €7 on an optional basis???) and this optional period could be extended for another six months. So we are easily talking 2024 when ETIAS becomes obligatory ... at that speed, Priri Patel will easily beat us with their ETA system ...

This is actually official and already set in law:

1. For a period of six months from the date on which ETIAS starts operations, the use of ETIAS shall be optional and the requirement to be in possession of a valid travel authorisation shall not apply. The Commission may adopt a delegated act in accordance with Article 89 to extend that period for a maximum of a further six months, renewable once.​

​

2. During the period referred to in paragraph 1, Member States shall inform third-country nationals subject to the travel authorisation requirement crossing the external borders of the requirement to have a valid travel authorisation from the expiry of the six-month period. For this purpose, the Member States shall distribute a common leaflet to this category of travellers.​

​

See Regulation (EU) 2018/1240.​

​

(This is my poker face)

 

[OZAJ]

Exceeding the 90 days is known as "overstaying." You can find some entertaining and informative anecdotes by googling "Schengen overstay experience"

Overstaying - even by one day - means that you risk being subject to penalties (e.g. fines, deportation, restriction on future travel to Schengen zone). And you might also spend some time in custody, waiting to be processed.

There isn't a trustworthy answer to the question "Will it really happen to me if I overstay by just a short time, and I haven't been working illegally, and I'm passing through border controls in a relaxed Mediterranean country, and I am an older, affluent, white, tourist rather than a younger, poor, brown, migrant worker?"

My gut might say "You'll be fine." but an agent having a bad hair day might decide that "You'll be fined."

There are a handful of legal ways to spend more than 90 days in the Schengen zone - as detailed on this blog:

Your Guide to (Legally) Staying in Europe for More Than 90 Days

Many people want to stay in the Schengen Zone longer than 90 days. This is a guide to show you how to legally do just that!

www.nomadicmatt.com

Thanks for answering my question.

This is quite a complex area because of the treaties your country may have with various individual Schengen countries.

 

[dick bird]

I have never heard this term "Schengen" before.

It's an agreement between various European countries (not exactly the EU, but more or less). It briefly means that if you arrive in one Schengen country from outside the Schengen area (e.g. from the US), they will check your passport, smile (maybe) and let you in. After that, you can travel across freely into any other Schengen country without border checks because there aren't any, as you will notice if you go from Spain into Portugal or France. But (and it is a big but) you are only allowed 90 days, in total, in the Schengen area. You might not realise this until you come to leave, at which point the immigration official will probably get very cross and certainly put your name on a list of people who have overstayed their time in the Schengen area if you have been in the Schengen area for more than 90 days.

 

[Kathor1]

I've been aware of the term "Schengen" for quite some time and I even knew that it is a place in Luxembourg where the first treaty about the abolition of border controls at national borders between a small number of EU countries was signed. In June 1985. What I didn't know until today:

Schengen (Luxembourgish: [ˈʃæŋən] (listen)) is a small wine-making village and commune in far south-eastern Luxembourg, on the western bank of the river Moselle. The commune border includes the tripoint where the borders of Germany, France, and Luxembourg meet.​

​

After the mergers with Burmerange and Wellenstein in 2011, the commune has a population of 4,223.​

 

[Kathor1]

And nobody will be surprised to learn that the small town of Schengen is on a camino to Santiago de Compostela. The purple arrow head marks the spot:

 

[Jeff Crawley]

And nobody will be surprised to learn that the small town of Schengen is on a camino to Santiago de Compostela. The purple arrow head marks the spot:

View attachment 103609

But would it take more than 90 days to get to SdC?

(BTW it took me ages to spot the arrow - looks the same color as France to me! A kind of Wo ist Walter?)

 

[Kathor1]

it took me ages to spot the arrow - looks the same color as France to me

Sorry! Is this better (click to enlarge):

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Sorry! Is this better (click to enlarge):

View attachment 103625

Perfection - colour blindness is never a problem . . . except when you need to discern colours!

 

[Marbe2]

There are ways to stay in Europe longer than 90 days. Do not overstay the 90 days in the Schengen Zone. But you could extend your time In Europe by visiting the non-schengen countries.

Non Schengen countries
The following European countries are not part of the Schengen area: Albania, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Ukraine, United Kingdom.’

 

[Deleted member 73526]

Regarding Croatia - Croatia submitted an application to be included in the Schengen area. The date for Croatia to join hasn't been decided. Perhaps it will happen in 2024:

Croatia ETIAS Application Process Explained

Learn how to easily apply for Croatia ETIAS with this step-by-step guide, including requirements and key tips. Get all the details before your trip.

etias.com

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I cannot work out if it is possible to extend. The husband and I are planning (in a few years) to walk Le Puy-SDC (the Camino after the next one lol). We want to take it at a leisurely pace with some short days and a few rest days to explore, particularly in France). In addition we will be arriving from Australia so a rest day or two before starting and a couple of rest days at the end - maybe another country for a few days before we depart. To do this at a leisurely pace, I would think 90 days would be cutting it fine. Is there a way to extend to say 120 days?

Citizens of Australia and New Zealand have it great with lots of countries giving them special breaks. If they are careful about following the rules they can spend years in Europe as tourists. They should check out this web page:

Unlimited visa in Europe. For Free. Maybe.

I spent nine out the last 12 months in Europe. 90 days in the Schengen area. Then 95 days out of the Schengen, in Belarus. Then 90 days in the Schengen. Words cannot describe how much I love Europe…

thefreedominitiative.wordpress.com

Other nationalities should go to the above page too as it has information on how to see if there are special Schengen rules exceptions for you too.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

They should check out this web page:

Unlimited visa in Europe. For Free. Maybe.

I spent nine out the last 12 months in Europe. 90 days in the Schengen area. Then 95 days out of the Schengen, in Belarus. Then 90 days in the Schengen. Words cannot describe how much I love Europe…

thefreedominitiative.wordpress.com

That looks like a good resource for finding bilateral agreements, but I am not sure about the author's interpretation of the rules:

"If one spends time in the listed countries (on the premise of the bilateral agreements), then travels to a Schengen country that does not have a bilateral agreement with Australia, it stands to reason that the conditions of the Schengen Agreement commence at that point."

I would check that with the countries that you're planning to visit before trying it.

In a previous thread, Sara Dhooma explored the possibility of using a bilateral treaty between Canada and the Nordic countries. If I recall correctly, she learned that it would be possible for a Canadian passport holder to spend 90 days in the Schengen zone before crossing to Denmark and spending another 90 days in the Nordics. But it would not be possible to do that in the opposite order - Schengen countries will consider that your Schengen clock was running while you were in the Nordics:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/continental-crossing-of-europe-with-a-camino-twist-suggestions-please.67347/#post-844656

I am not a lawyer and this is not advice.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

would check that with the countries that you're planning to visit before trying it.

I agree. It is my understanding that the Schengen visa has to be used first (do research on this or get a lawyer, I'm not one either).

The order of visiting the countries that allow an extra stay can be tricky. Some countries require the arrival (or departure or both) to be by air and others by land so watch your border crossings.

Here is another warning. I read a report by an American who had a legal extended stay in Poland who got a severe punishment for overstaying in the Schengen zone when his plane home had a stopover in Geneva. The combined time in Poland plus the "day" in Switzerland (really an hour or so in the airport) was more than the 90 day limit. Whatever the punishment was (I don't remember) it affected his ability to do business in Europe. With legal help he finally was able to get back in good graces but it took a long time and lots of money.

 

[Kathor1]

I am not sure about the author's interpretation of the rules:

"If one spends time in the listed countries (on the premise of the bilateral agreements), then travels to a Schengen country that does not have a bilateral agreement with Australia, it stands to reason that the conditions of the Schengen Agreement commence at that point."

It stands to reason ... lovely ... I agree with you, it is smart to check this with the countries that someone is planning to visit before trying it.

It is true that individual EU countries are dearly attached to the bilateral agreements into which they entered before the 1980s or so, and they don't want to give them up.

It is also true that this has created situations, and I quote, where it is possible to merge the several short-term stays of the third country nationals on the basis of those bilateral agreements and to stay within the territory of the Schengen area for several years continuously.

It is also true that the various EU countries interpret the legal situation differently and that this has created, and I quote, legal uncertainty both for authorities and travellers, especially when the latter are to depart from the Schengen area.

It is also true that the EU administration and the EU countries are working on compromise solutions that will both keep these old bilateral agreements and make the situation for long-term (> 90 days) visa waiver stays more clear-cut in view of the planned introduction of the Entry-Exit-System (EES) and accompanying EU legislation. I don't know how far this has progressed.

 

[Kitsambler]

Authorization by ETIAS will not be required until 2023, per their web site (https://etias.com/). It will require a current passport. Checked your expiration date lately?

 

[Kathor1]

Authorization by ETIAS will not be required until 2023, per their web site (https://etias.com/). It will require a current passport. Checked your expiration date lately?

Sorry but https://etias.com/ is not "their website". It is a commercial site.

Any official EU website dealing with the future ETIAS system must end in .europa.eu

 

[Kathor1]

Your Guide to (Legally) Staying in Europe for More Than 90 Days

Many people want to stay in the Schengen Zone longer than 90 days. This is a guide to show you how to legally do just that!

www.nomadicmatt.com

Another word of caution in addition to the words of cautions others have already posted: The nomadicmatt blog entry was last updated on June 5th, 2019. That was two years ago.

This area is constantly evolving. Sometimes the new rules are more liberal, i.e. they make travel to the EU and staying in the EU easier for leisure travellers, sometimes it is the opposite. Check, check and check again before making long-term plans.

 

[Kathor1]

There is definitely some change in the air as to Schengen, bilateral agreements and the possibility of a long (> 90 days) visa free stay and the danger of becoming an overstayer and being detected. The EES Regulation is already in force but not yet applicable in all its parts. Expect it to happen in 2022 or 2023.

What neither Nomadic Matt nor the Unlimited visa in Europe. For free. Maybe blogger could have known at the time: In April 2019, a Notice from Member States with a List of Member States' bilateral visa waiver agreements with third countries allowing for an extension of the period of stay in accordance with Article 20(2), point (b), of the Convention implementing the Schengen Agreement was published in the EU Official Journal. You can download this list here.

The list contains an astonishing number of such old bilateral agreements. 36 pages. There are definitely attempts to phase them out but it is not for tomorrow. Before that happens, they will start to collectively track down and collect data about overstayers through the future Entry-Exit-System (EES).

 

[Kathor1]

I read a report by an American who had a legal extended stay in Poland who got a severe punishment for overstaying in the Schengen zone when his plane home had a stopover in Geneva.

I remember that you mentioned a bilateral agreement between the USA and Poland in older threads. I cannot find such an agreement in the list above. Do you have a link to it or do you know when it was concluded, in particular whether it was concluded before or after 2004 resp. 2007? Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

The combined time in Poland plus the "day" in Switzerland (really an hour or so in the airport) was more than the 90 day limit.

That's very surprising to me but who can argue with the Swiss over time keeping ?
Mind you, as Katherina said earlier, online anecdotes should be read with a pinch of salt.

 

[Kathor1]

According to the Tages-Anzeiger newspaper, in 2009-2010 over 6,700 people received fines of SFr200-650 ($255-830) for legally spending over three months in another Schengen zone country but making the mistake of travelling back home via Switzerland. Fines slapped on thousands of travellers transiting through Switzerland without the correct paperwork have been described as bad PR for Swiss tourism.

Note that these people had been legally staying, visa free and for more than 90 days, in another Schengen country (on the basis of those bilateral agreements).

This made the Swiss news in 2011. Ten years ago ...

Swiss airport transit fines are "embarrassing"

According to the Tages-Anzeiger newspaper, in 2009-2010 over 6,700 people received fines of SFr200-650 ($255-830) for legally spending over three months in another Schengen zone country but making the mistake of travelling back home via Switzerland. Under Swiss law, the limit for staying in the...

www.swissinfo.ch

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I remember that you mentioned a bilateral agreement between the USA and Poland in older threads. I cannot find such an agreement in the list above. Do you have a link to it or do you know when it was concluded, in particular whether it was concluded before or after 2004 resp. 2007? Thanks.

This took me awhile as the links I had in my notes are now dead. But here is the current way of accessing the agreement. As you can see I am showing how to find the information rather than just giving a URL, in case the URL changes again.

Go to Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website

TRAKTATY

Baza umów dwustronnych i wielostronnych

traktaty.msz.gov.pl

where it says "The Internet Treaty Base (ITB) of the MFA contains registers and texts of international agreements to which Poland is or was a party."

Click Bilateral Agreements to get to a form page https://traktaty.msz.gov.pl/treaty-1

Enter USA for the party of the agreement and 04-04-1991 for the date of the signing and 04-15-1991 for the effective date and then click Search to download a PDF of the agreement.

Go to the following page on a blog for non-official but useful information. Use the information to create good questions for consular officers.

Staying in Poland without visa, visa-free countries

Visa-free countries (countries, which citizens can enter Poland without visa), generally can be divided into two groups: 1 . Countries, ...

expatcenter.blogspot.com

Let me add that I had found bilateral agreements between the USA and Denmark and Poland and I read of one with France but I couldn't find anything on it. All the rest that you posted were surprises. Not that I need to use any, I have other ways to extend my stay.

 

[Kathor1]

This took me awhile as the links I had in my notes are now dead. But here is the current way of accessing the agreement. As you can see I am showing how to find the information rather than just giving a URL, in case the URL changes again.

Go to Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website

Fascinating!!! How did you find this??? I did download the text, thank you. It is actually not a bilateral agreement but an exchange of diplomatic letters, though apparently good enough for Poland to regard it as law. I admit that I had read about this elsewhere, so the fact that it is not a proper bilateral agreement would explain why it is not the published list. I was puzzled by this.

Ah, it is just so nice when things fall into place and you've seen the sources with your own eyes.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Fascinating!!! How did you find this???

I found it about two years ago and I have since forgotten how. I did write some notes at the time though. Links were broken at a couple of websites but I figured I would start at the top of the Foreign Affairs site using the Chrome browser for translation. Originally I had to search for all agreements with the US and then search for "visa" among them. My notes though had the dates for the agreement and that allowed more direct access to the letters.

I'm tempted to check out the other agreements you found but I don't really need the information and so I'll skip that, at least until I get a replacement PC.

Thank you for all the searches you have made for all of us @Kathar1na.

 

[David Tallan]

There are ways to stay in Europe longer than 90 days.

I know there are student visas, work visas, residence visas.... But are there ways suitable for those not working or studying or moving to Europe but simply on an extended pilgrimage, say from Geneva to SJPP or from Canterbury to Rome? I haven't heard of them and I am sure they would be of interest to some users of this forum.

 

[Kathor1]

know there are student visas, work visas, residence visas.... But are there ways suitable for those not working or studying or moving to Europe but simply on an extended pilgrimage, say from Geneva to SJPP or from Canterbury to Rome? I haven't heard of them and I am sure they would be of interest to some users of this forum.

What we have been talking about mostly, and I think this may not have been made clear sometimes, are visa free stays in the Schengen area. Both the familiar up-to-90 days visa free stay within the whole Schengen area and the less familiar up-to-a-few months-at-best visa free stays in one of the Schengen countries on the basis of bilateral agreements between a Schengen country and a non-EU country.

Then there are longer term stays that require a visa even when you are a national of a country that benefits from the 90 days out of 180 days visa waiver option.

There have been reports on the forum from members who got such a long term visa for a long term pilgrimage / touristic stay. It is reported to be a cumbersome and time consuming procedure but it is not that difficult to get such a visa. You need to provide documentation about your financial status among other things. You need to get the long term visa from the embassy/consulate of the EU country where you will enter the Schengen area; you need to get it before you start traveling; and it needs to entitle you to move freely within the Schengen area. Contact the embassy/consulate in question in your home country/country of residence.

 

[Kathor1]

There are no fixed rules for the requirements for a long term visa to stay in the Schengen area for travelling. But it isn't exactly a secret that it is possible. Here is a link to an article in USA Today from January 2018: Travel Tips - How to get a long-term Schengen Visa.

A quote:

They want reassurance that there is no work being done illegally, so it is necessary to show proof of self support. No set amount is listed by any of these countries, but plan on having savings totaling at least a year's worth of the monthly expenses in the US.​

​

You will need to go for an interview at the embassy.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I know there are student visas, work visas, residence visas.... But are there ways suitable for those not working or studying or moving to Europe but simply on an extended pilgrimage, say from Geneva to SJPP or from Canterbury to Rome? I haven't heard of them and I am sure they would be of interest to some users of this forum.

The following webpages might be useful for non-EU citizens to learn how to extend their stay in Europe/EU/Schengen zone.

List of Member States' bilateral visa waiver agreements with third countries allowing for an extension of the period of stay in accordance with Article 20(2), point (b), of the Convention implementing the Schengen Agreement - Publications Office of t

op.europa.eu

Your Guide to (Legally) Staying in Europe for More Than 90 Days

Many people want to stay in the Schengen Zone longer than 90 days. This is a guide to show you how to legally do just that!

www.nomadicmatt.com

Note: In the above webpage there is a section of additional notes for Americans. This MAY apply to other nationalities too. Use the notes as hints for further checks.

EU-Third Countries Bilateral Visa Waiver Agreements Explained

EU-Third Countries Bilateral Visa Waiver Agreements Explained

www.etiasvisa.com

http://www.temperproject.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Working-Paper-6.pdf

Edit: Also check this webpage that I posted a link to in this thread's post #62

Unlimited visa in Europe. For Free. Maybe.

I spent nine out the last 12 months in Europe. 90 days in the Schengen area. Then 95 days out of the Schengen, in Belarus. Then 90 days in the Schengen. Words cannot describe how much I love Europe…

thefreedominitiative.wordpress.com

 

[Marbe2]

Another option is to apply for citizenship in an EU country. Although, my paternal family left GB in 1635 for America, my maternal Grandfather was born near Rome and arrived here in 1920 from Italy. If I were younger, I would certainly apply for dual citizenship…American and Italian citizenship. It is a matter of proving your heritage, money and wading through the process. Your heritage could open the doors to longer stays in Europe.

 

[dick bird]

Another option is to apply for citizenship in an EU country. Although, my paternal family left GB in 1635 for America, my maternal Grandfather was born near Rome and arrived here in 1920 from Italy. If I were younger, I would certainly apply for dual citizenship…American and Italian citizenship. It is a matter of proving your heritage, money and wading through the process. Your heritage could open the doors to longer stays in Europe.

This may not be a good option. Some countries (and your native country might be one of them) do not allow or recognise dual citizenship. Not to mention certain obligations that your newly embraced nationality might impose on you, e.g. jury duty, national service, tax on overseas earnings etc. Might be a good thing to check first.

 

[C clearly]

tax on overseas earnings etc.

Even if you have no earnings to pay tax on, you'll probably need to file a more complicated tax return to your home country.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

Even if you have no earnings to pay tax on, you'll probably need to file a more complicated tax return to your home country.

I think this may be true if one of your nationalities is US. I understand that most other countries place less of an administrative burden on their non-domiciled and/or non-earning nationals.

In any case, I think that a discussion about dual nationality is a kind of Kobayashi Maru solution to the challenge that the thread is really about - i.e. spending time in the Schengen zone as a non-EU/EEA/CH national.

Suffice to say that becoming a dual citizen is not a decision to take lightly.

 

[Kathor1]

As @Raggy has said, dual taxation may not be a big issue if you manage to obtain an EU nationality as a second nationality. But if you were to become a law-abiding EU citizen, in many if not most EU countries you will be required to report your presence to the relevant authorities (often the town hall or local police station) within a certain period of time after arrival; they may impose a penalty, such as a fine if you fail to do so and they manage to find out. That period is often 3 months. You may be happy to know that even when they find out, which is not very likely, you cannot be expelled for your failure to register.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Even if you have no earnings to pay tax on, you'll probably need to file a more complicated tax return to your home country.

Only for a minority of countries. I have dual citizenship with two passports, no complications for me. Theoretically I could have three passports as I was born in Fiji and lived their long enough to have citizenship but getting a Fiji passport is very expensive and doesn't add any value and so I haven't bothered.

I am a Naturalised Kiwi and so I have citizenship and a NZ passport I also have a UK citizenship and passport via my father who was born in the UK as his father was in France for the Great War and met and married a young nurse from the London docks after being wounded and repatriated back to England.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Mostly it has been very useful to have dual citizenship.

In 2008 I went to Sweden for six months on a Masters student exchange to study at KTH in Stockholm. When I was planning my trip my UK passport had expired and so I got a six month student visa on my NZ passport.

While I was in Sweden I renewed my UK passport. Unfortunately, I ended up needing to stay seven months in Sweden and so I overstayed my visa. As I was leaving I anticipated some difficulties with Swedish immigration and the officer had a serious look on his face as I explained why I had overstayed my visa and he was reaching for an official pad when I flashed my UK passport at him and innocently asked "does this make a difference?" He rolled his eyes and waved me through saying "If you have that passport you can stay as long as you like".

There was only one occasion when having two passports caused some initial issues and that was reported in this post https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/back-up-documents.68910/post-885389

 

[dick bird]

Mostly it has been very useful to have dual citizenship.

In 2008 I went to Sweden for six months on a Masters student exchange to study at KTH in Stockholm. When I was planning my trip my UK passport had expired and so I got a six month student visa on my NZ passport.

While I was in Sweden I renewed my UK passport. Unfortunately, I ended up needing to stay seven months in Sweden and so I overstayed my visa. As I was leaving I anticipated some difficulties with Swedish immigration and the officer had a serious look on his face as I explained why I had overstayed my visa and he was reaching for an official pad when I flashed my UK passport at him and innocently asked "does this make a difference?" He rolled his eyes and waved me through saying "If you have that passport you can stay as long as you like".

There was only one occasion when having two passports caused some initial issues and that was reported in this post https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/back-up-documents.68910/post-885389

Have you heard about Brexit?

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Have you heard about Brexit?

No politics please

 

[Kathor1]

There was only one occasion when having two passports caused some initial issues and that was reported in this post https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/back-up-documents.68910/post-885389

Wow, that's quite a story - machine gun being pointed at you by border control at Zurich airport!

As I said already a few times, in 2022 or 2023, the familiar Schengen entry-exit stamps in non-EU passports will disappear and the entry and exit data, including their photo and their fingerprints, of everyone who is not a national of EU/EEA/CH will be stored in an EU wide database (called EES) if things go according to plan.

 

[Kathor1]

if things go according to plan.

Just saw a very recent official report. As usual, there are laggards among the 30 Schengen countries as far as the technical and preparatory legal work for the future Entry-Exit system is concerned:

• Not on track: 1 country
• At significant risk of not being on track: 3 countries
• At risk of not being on track: 5 countries
• Broadly on track: 21 countries

 

[Marbe2]

This may not be a good option. Some countries (and your native country might be one of them) do not allow or recognise dual citizenship. Not to mention certain obligations that your newly embraced nationality might impose on you, e.g. jury duty, national service, tax on overseas earnings etc. Might be a good thing to check first.

The US allows dual citizenship for its citizens. This means that you can hold your US passport and be a citizen in another country at the same time. One of the easiest ways to acquire dual citizenship is by descent. Many countries let you claim citizenship if your parents, grandparents or — in some cases — great grandparents were born in said country.So if descend from an EU member country and want to stay longer than 90 days at a time in the EU, this might be worth exploring. This takes time and will cost some money, and you will need supportive documentation. So it is not a last minute solution. But if you intended to travel for many years this might be worth exploring.