Santiago and LGBT

[Pirsing]

When I arrived in SdC, i was surprised how many rainbow and LGBT comunity I saw in that old catholic city. Did not expected that. What you think about that?

 

[SabsP]

That this is a good thing of course.

Spain has rather liberal laws in Europe regarding LGBTQIA+.

LGBTQ rights in Spain - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Like in many countries in Western and Southern Europe , Spain too merely has a form of " cultural Catholicism " . Mainly attending church for the occasional baptism , marriage or funeral.

Losing their religion? New report shows Spaniards are turning their backs on faith

Nearly one-third of people in Spain are either atheists, agnostics or non-believers, according to a study by the Ferrer i Guàrdia Foundatio

english.elpais.com

And Santiago de Compostela is of course a bigger town with a good percentage of students. So also more tolerance and acceptance than in more rural towns.

Being LGBTQ+ on the Camino de Santiago - Follow the Camino

The Camino is for everyone, including the LGBTQ+ community! Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people are all welcome on the Camino.

followthecamino.com

LGBT Rights in Spain | Equaldex

LGBT Rights in Spain: homosexuality, gay marriage, gay adoption, serving in the military, sexual orientation discrimination protection, changing legal gender, donating blood, age of consent, and more.

www.equaldex.com

 

[dick bird]

When I arrived in SdC, i was surprised how many rainbow and LGBT comunity I saw in that old catholic city. Did not expected that. What you think about that?

Tell us first what you think about it.

 

[Kathor1]

What you think about that?

I would have thought at first: oh look, rainbow colours, how pretty.

Then I would have been reminded of the pace flags or peace flags - I am so old that I remember events from 20 years back.

OK, I googled it and I now see that these rainbows along the entry of the Camino Frances into Santiago are part of their "Compostela Diversa 2022" action program where the local administration wants to emphasise the inclusive character of the Camino and of Santiago de Compostela. Good for them. As @SabineP has rightly pointed out, Spain in general is a modern European country with what one would perhaps call liberal policies for lack of a better term, and the town of Compostela is part of it.

You indicated in a recent post that the most important aspect for you "in the whole Camino" is "walking/hiking in the nature". Good for you. For others it is personal transformation or finding global friendship. An important aspect for me was and is experiencing and learning first-hand about France's and Spain's (and thus Europe's) culture and history - not only the past but also the present. These rainbows are part of this.

 

[Kanga]

The question says much about the questioner.

Same sex marriage has been legal in Spain since 2005.

 

[jungleboy]

The first time I walked into Santiago, in 2017, these flags hung from the city hall opposite the cathedral:

 

[Pirsing]

Tell us first what you think about it.

I am a part of LGBT community, so now you can guess what I'm thinking about it.

 

[dick bird]

I am a part of LGBT community, so now you can guess what I'm thinking about it.

Thank you for your openness. In answer to your question: living in Sydney, I would have found it totally normal, and knowing what I do of Spain, unsurprising. But as I have said before, the camino forum is not the place for discussion of this issue except to reiterate our general attitude of tolerance and acceptance.

 

[dougfitz]

I am a part of LGBT community, so now you can guess what I'm thinking about it.

And this still leaves me wondering why this is worth commenting on.

 

[oursonpolaire]

Spain is a complex country, and has got enough in the way of fascinating contradictions to keep the pilgrim quite engaged.

 

[wayfarer]

And this still leaves me wondering why this is worth commenting on.

I suppose the op considered Spain to still be an ultra Catholic country and was surprised at what he saw in Santiago. LGBTQ is part and parcel of life and that includes the Camino.

 

[Telboyo]

Inclusivity actually includes everyone, LGBTQ, Christians, non Christians, religions of all typesand those of no faith. That is the whole point of it.

 

[Former member 102963]

I suppose the op considered Spain to still be an ultra Catholic country and was surprised at what he saw in Santiago. LGBTQ is part and parcel of life and that includes the Camino.

Yes that was my take too. I am an atheist and don’t know any religious folks but people often equate religion with intolerance. Despite the views of some religions/leaders sure everyday folks are happy to embrace diversity.

 

[Kathor1]

Erm ... the LGBTI+ rainbow colours on the sign announcing the border of the city of Santiago and on the street next to the pedestrian crossing where the Camino Frances enters the old town have nothing to do with religious leaders. Religious leaders are not sitting in the city administration, i.e. in the Concello.

The Concello of Santiago de Compostela is composed of the elected members of political parties and you can consult the composition on their website here: they are PSdeG-PSOE, PP, CA, and BNG.

And: Después de las elecciones del 26 de mayo de 2019, PSdeG-PSOE gobierna en el Ayuntamiento de Santiago, tras obtener 10 concejales, por los 8 del PP, los 5 de CA y los 2 del BNG.

 

[dougfitz]

I suppose the op considered Spain to still be an ultra Catholic country and was surprised at what he saw in Santiago. LGBTQ is part and parcel of life and that includes the Camino.

Yes that was my take too. I am an atheist and don’t know any religious folks but people often equate religion with intolerance. Despite the views of some religions/leaders sure everyday folks are happy to embrace diversity.

The suggestion by the OP that we just guess what his intentions were in posting this is interesting. My mind reading is too far off these days to make that worth considering. It will be interesting to see if he is willing to share his thoughts about the matter.

My own take is simple, it is disappointing that this still needs to be discussed as if it is unusual, rather than a normal part of the spectrum of our humanity and the lives that we lead.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

News Flash: you can be Catholic and gay at the same time. Millions of people have managed it, for centuries.

 

[Former member 102963]

I suppose the op considered Spain to still be an ultra Catholic country and was surprised at what he saw in Santiago. LGBTQ is part and parcel of life and that includes the

The suggestion by the OP that we just guess what his intentions were in posting this is interesting. My mind reading is too far off these days to make that worth considering. It will be interesting to see if he is willing to share his thoughts about the matter.

My own take is simple, it is disappointing that this still needs to be discussed as if it is unusual, rather than a normal part of the spectrum of our humanity and the lives that we lead.

Not sure how this squares up as a forum topic irrespective of the SDC link compared to say ‘diversity on the Camino’ but it’s an interesting topic nonetheless. I am neither religious or gay but have grown up in very diverse environment, both personally and professionally, in both ethnicity and sexuality so it’s alway been a source of wonder and sadness how the subject creates so much reactions.

That said I have always been interested in how really religious folks balance the teaching of their educational establishment (sorry if my language sounds a bit daft… I don’t ‘know’ the language of religion!) with their personal views. The UK had quite a senior politician who really struggled to balance the two.

It’s topical if nothing else with the forthcoming World Cup and the key ‘stakeholders’ trying to balance their much vaunted and heralded message of ‘equaliity’ versus the laws on sexuality in Qatar!

 

[Kathor1]

I don’t understand the criticism expressed in this thread. @Pirsing made an observation about something that had surprised him: Spain or rather Santiago appears to be more progressive than he had thought.

One has to be rather uninformed when one does not know that there are numerous European countries with a predominantly Catholic population where the Catholic Church as an institution was and/or is an active participant in social and political debates; may or may have vociferously opposed legislation, for example on divorce legislation; where the Church views also shape or shaped a country’s approach to other legislation such as in vitro fertilisation and abortion; and that there have been socio-political changes in a number of these countries where the Church lost its strong hold on everyday life, and a slow shift away from Church-led values took or takes place. Belgium, Ireland, Spain … all of them examples for this.

BTW, I took a text from Air Malta about Malta and its Catholic legacy as a template for describing such historical and contemporary facts and to make sure that I use correct terminology in English. I am not trying to express a personal opinion in the above paragraph.

The fact that the Department for Equality of the City of Santiago initiated the action described in the first post appears, to me at least, to be an indication that there is still a need to make things “normal” because that stage has not yet been reached. As they say in their own words on www.santiagoturismo.com: make Santiago a benchmark as a welcoming city, committed to global and inclusive actions that help to advance in the achievement of rights, visibility and the normalisation of the lives of the whole collective.

 

[Former member 102963]

I don’t understand the criticism expressed in this thread. @Pirsing made an observation about something that had surprised him: Spain or rather Santiago appears to be more progressive than he had thought.

One has to be rather uninformed when one does not know that there are numerous European countries with a predominantly Catholic population where the Catholic Church as an institution was and/or is an active participant in social and political debates; may or may have vociferously opposed legislation, for example on divorce legislation; where the Church views also shape or shaped a country’s approach to other legislation such as in vitro fertilisation and abortion; and that there have been socio-political changes in a number of these countries where the Church lost its strong hold on everyday life, and a slow shift away from Church-led values took or takes place. Belgium, Ireland, Spain … all of them examples for this.

BTW, I took a text from Air Malta about Malta and its Catholic legacy as a template for describing such historical and contemporary facts and to make sure that I use correct terminology in English. I am not trying to express a personal opinion in the above paragraph.

The fact that the Department for Equality of the City of Santiago initiated the action described in the first post appears, to me at least, to be an indication that there is still a need to make things “normal” because that stage has not yet been reached. As they say in their own words on www.santiagoturismo.com: make Santiago a benchmark as a welcoming city, committed to global and inclusive actions that help to advance in the achievement of rights, visibility and the normalisation of the lives of the whole collective.

My turn not to understand! Who is being critical of who?

 

[Kathor1]

My turn not to understand! Who is being critical of who?

Just take it from me that I detected criticism that I don’t understand. And I may add that I fear that this thread may get closed pretty soon … Also, that I did not expect that, of all the lines in my longish post, this short line at the beginning would elicit a reaction.

 

[Former member 102963]

Just take it from me that I detected criticism that I don’t understand. And I may add that I fear that this thread may get closed pretty soon …

Ok cool. I have not seen it but religion is very complex to a novice like me and you will see things I don’t!

 

[Former member 49149]

Thank you for your openness. In answer to your question: living in Sydney, I would have found it totally normal, and knowing what I do of Spain, unsurprising. But as I have said before, the camino forum is not the place for discussion of this issue except to reiterate our general attitude of tolerance and acceptance.

Yesterday, when I saw the OP's question, I reported his post with the query as to its relevance to the forum. There was only one response at that stage. The reality of lgbtq is not the issue.
The issue is what relevance it has to matters of import relating to camino questions connected with routes, albergues, other practical matters.

 

[Kathor1]

Ok cool. I have not seen it but religion is very complex to a novice like me and you will see things I don’t!

When you join the forum you agree to this rule number 2:

No discussions on religion, bull fights, sports and politics. These topics "always" end in a fight, so let's not go there. It is true that the Camino and religion is closely related, so some leeway will be given.​

I find this a pity but understand why: these discussion get often personal very quickly. I try hard to keep my personal convictions and opinions to myself when it concerns matters of personal faith (or none) and strive to express neutral observations. It is a fine line to walk.

BTW, as I see it, not only the Camino and religion are closely related, what is also closely related are the Camino and tourism. I don't know whether they painted the rainbows on all the signs at the city border and next to all the pedestrian crossings or only where the Camino Francés enters Santiago. I have a feeling it was the latter.

 

[Former member 102963]

I’m still lost but last night I was at Oktoberfest so maybe that’s why! Cutting to the chase is there anything is my post that’s critical. It’s certainly not my intention!

 

[wayfarer]

I don’t understand the criticism expressed in this thread. @Pirsing made an observation about something that had surprised him: Spain or rather Santiago appears to be more progressive than he had thought.

I couldn't agree more, and because he may not have expressed this clearly because English is not his first language some people felt he was being confrontational, others felt it had nothing to do with the Camino, the reality is that it has every bit as much to do with the Camino as any other subject we discuss IMO unless of course we are uncomfortable discussing the subject because of our own beliefs on it.

 

[Kanga]

Yesterday, when I saw the OP's question, I reported his post with the query as to its relevance to the forum. There was only one response at that stage. The reality of lgbtq is not the issue.
The issue is what relevance it has to matters of import relating to camino questions connected with routes, albergues, other practical matters.

I think we give space to people to post their experiences on the Camino and ask questions that relate to how they will navigate the Camino.

(Edited to add). I mean "navigate" in the broad sense.

 

[VNwalking]

What you think about that?

In a word, excellent.
But as @SabineP said, it's not really very surprising, given the context of a university city and Spain's liberal laws. I'd be more surprised given Spain's relatively machismo culture, rather than the religious context.

 

[like a rhino]

Thank you for your openness. In answer to your question: living in Sydney, I would have found it totally normal, and knowing what I do of Spain, unsurprising. But as I have said before, the camino forum is not the place for discussion of this issue except to reiterate our general attitude of tolerance and acceptance.

“Tolerance”?

 

[Pilgrim Kaye]

Not sure how this squares up as a forum topic irrespective of the SDC link compared to say ‘diversity on the Camino’ but it’s an interesting topic nonetheless. I am neither religious or gay but have grown up in very diverse environment, both personally and professionally, in both ethnicity and sexuality so it’s alway been a source of wonder and sadness how the subject creates so much reactions.

That said I have always been interested in how really religious folks balance the teaching of their educational establishment (sorry if my language sounds a bit daft… I don’t ‘know’ the language of religion!) with their personal views. The UK had quite a senior politician who really struggled to balance the two.

It’s topical if nothing else with the forthcoming World Cup and the key ‘stakeholders’ trying to balance their much vaunted and heralded message of ‘equaliity’ versus the laws on sexuality in Qatar!

I am Catholic and my dear best friend is a gay man. When he got married to another wonderful guy I was his "bridesmaid". A true Catholic should consider intolerance a sin.

 

[frithles]

I’m currently walking the Frances and wearing a pair of shorts that have a pride flag printed on them. I’m not trying to make a statement, they’re just really comfortable shorts to walk in. If anyone has issue with the rainbow, well that’s their problem. But I’m certainly not expecting problems any more so than I would expect in other European countries.

 

[Former member 102963]

I’m currently walking the Frances and wearing a pair of shorts that have a pride flag printed on them. I’m not trying to make a statement, they’re just really comfortable shorts to walk in. If anyone has issue with the rainbow, well that’s their problem. But I’m certainly not expecting problems any more so than I would expect in other European countries.

I am definitely lost now! Surely you are making a statement, and a positive one at that and it’s fine my me!!! Maybe I am missing something!

 

[ivar]

I will close this thread... this was an observation about Santiago from the OP, but this topic can become complicated really fast...