Saint Jean Pied de Port to Roncesvalles, leaving in the afternoon

[JonnyRosa]

In early October, I plan to do the route from Sant Jean Pied de Port to Roncesvalles, leaving SJPP in the afternoon, around 2:30 p.m. I walk frequently and quickly, averaging 6 km/h. I would like to know if any of my colleagues have already done this route in the afternoon and what challenges I might be forgetting.

 

[Bradypus]

Is your 6km/h average over the sort of ascents and descents found on the SJPDP to Roncesvalles routes? Not the same as flat walking in my experience.

 

[JonnyRosa]

Is your 6km/h average over the sort of ascents and descents found on the SJPDP to Roncesvalles routes? Not the same as flat walking in my experience.

Is your 6km/h average over the sort of ascents and descents found on the SJPDP to Roncesvalles routes? Not the same as flat walking in my experience.

It's true Bradpus, walking on steep inclines is another matter. I intend to do the 15% incline section at 4.5 km/h; the 10% to 14% incline sections at 5 km/h and the 5% to 10% incline sections at 5.5 km/h; the rest I intend to do at 6 km/h.

 

[CarolamS]

Do you know how adverse conditions might affect your timings? I suggest you book your bed and give them an approximate arrival time as you are likely to be much later than most pilgrims.

 

[HansuutTwente]

hello jonnyrosa
I am a hospitalero in Roncesvalles and have considerable experience with pilgrims who start late in the afternoon.
my advice is don't do it!
you arrive in the dark and when it is raining it is extra dangerous.
my advice would be:
reserve 1 bed in Orison and then leave the next morning as soon as it is light, then walk to Espinal and then to Pamplona, you have not lost a day but you have had your rest
good luck with your hike
hans from Twente

 

[Harland2019]

Sunset in early October in Roncesvalles is just before 6 o'clock. I would enjoy SJPdP and start the next day but you may prefer another option. I know someone who started at about 13.00 and arrived OK but that was in June where sunset would have been much later.

 

[C clearly]

what challenges I might be forgetting.

1. Effects of jet lag
2. Time of sunset and visibility in the mountains in October
3. Effects of bad weather
4. Absence of other walkers at that time, in case you need help
5. Emergency communications in case you need help
6. How much experience you have walking those slopes at those speeds, with a backpack.

 

[Harland2019]

It is worth reading the post "Brutal first day" where he started at 8.00.

 

[JonnyRosa]

Sunset in early October in Roncesvalles is just before 6 o'clock. I would enjoy SJPdP and start the next day but you may prefer another option. I know someone who started at about 13.00 and arrived OK but that was in June where sunset would have been much later.

Thank you very much for your words, Harland.I had researched and the sunset on October 2nd will be at 7:44 pm. Since I plan to start the walking at 2:00 pm and arrive at 6:30 pm, I would have more than an hour to spare. Are you sure that the sunset would be at 6:00 pm? This completely changes my plan.

 

[Harland2019]

Silly mistake using Google having looked again that was Roncesvalles Columbia -Sorry! Not sure how to put in an embarrassed Emoji!

 

[BernardK]

Hi. JonnyRosa
Rather foolish in my view. as long distance walker how train on the mendips at an average 5.5k per hour. Often the Salisbury Pain 100 k in 17 -18 hours I thought 25k. a few slopes and should do it easy in just under 5 hours. Rain slippery and slippery parts, but I did go through the forest down into Roncesvalles. I managed a fraction over 5.5 hours. Fog. was my worst problem. ( I should have listened to at the advice given out when I got my passport ).I was also the first to get there from SJPP on the Napoleon route. You may have better times going the alternative route. Gong Ho! and the Mountain don't mix. trust me. But try but DO NOT GO THROUGH THE WOODS during darkness. YOU WILL get lost..A wise man will suggest start slowing and improve all the way. ORISON is the best option and start early next day..as suggested.

 

[MickMac]

In early October, I plan to do the route from Sant Jean Pied de Port to Roncesvalles, leaving SJPP in the afternoon, around 2:30 p.m. I walk frequently and quickly, averaging 6 km/h. I would like to know if any of my colleagues have already done this route in the afternoon and what challenges I might be forgetting.

Dangerous weather permitting why so late but it's your decision .

 

[C clearly]

Since I plan to start the walking at 2:00 pm and arrive at 6:30 pm, I would have more than an hour to spare.

You originally said 2:30. You seem to be minimizing/adjusting the facts to fit your wishful thinking.

How fast do you "plan" to walk the downhill part, and which route?

Actual visibility will be more complex than the sunset chart might indicate.

Actual walking will be more complex than the distance/elevation/speed calculations suggest.

What hiking experience do you have?

 

[MarioM]

In early October, I plan to do the route from Sant Jean Pied de Port to Roncesvalles, leaving SJPP in the afternoon, around 2:30 p.m. I walk frequently and quickly, averaging 6 km/h. I would like to know if any of my colleagues have already done this route in the afternoon and what challenges I might be forgetting.

It's steep ascents and descents, especially the first 10K. You won't be able to average 6 km/h

 

[trecile]

Since I plan to start the walking at 2:00 pm and arrive at 6:30 pm,

Good luck with that.

 

[dougfitz]

I would like to know if any of my colleagues have already done this route in the afternoon and what challenges I might be forgetting.

Perhaps you should ask your colleagues. I don't think any of us would know what they have done!

You have already heard what other forum members have said, but lets put some numbers around this. On 1 Oct, sunset at Roncesvalles will be about 1947, and civil twilight will end about 30 minutes later at 2018. Barring weather effects, if you leave SJPP around 1430, you will have a bit over five hours of daylight, and not quite six hours where you might be able to walk without artificial lighting. But you will also be walking through wooded areas that will be darker earlier.

Based on a gpx track from the Spanish mapping agency, I estimate the flat equivalent distance for Route Napoleon to be about 39 km. At 6 km/hr, that would be the equivalent of 6.5 hours walking. If you take even as short a break as 30 min, you will need 7.0 hours, and this will mean arriving well after the end of civil twilight.

By mid-Oct, sunset and the end of civil twilight will be about 30 minutes earlier.

note: Brierley suggests the flat equivalent for someone walking at 3 km/hr is 31 km based on an extra 10 min for every 100m of climb. Adjusting his calculations for your faster pace results in a flat equivalent of 39.33 km. I come at this a slightly simpler way, but with a very similar result, 38.72 km.

It seems that your own duration estimate is 4.5 hours. That would equate to a flat terrain speed of about 8.7 km/hr. I don't think that is very realistic as a planning speed.

 

[t2andreo]

In early October, I plan to do the route from Sant Jean Pied de Port to Roncesvalles, leaving SJPP in the afternoon, around 2:30 p.m. I walk frequently and quickly, averaging 6 km/h. I would like to know if any of my colleagues have already done this route in the afternoon and what challenges I might be forgetting.

Carefully check what time sunset comes to the Pass Napoleon that time of year. You DO NOT want to be caught out on the trail through the Pyrenees in the dark.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

I am curious to hear what decision you will make in the end. The advice to stop in Orisson or Borda A kilometer farther up the mountain)and start early the next day is so sound that it is hard for me to understand why you would stick to your plan that has so many risky factors

 

[lt56ny]

But you will also be walking through wooded areas that will be darker earlier.

Based on a gpx track from the Spanish mapping agency, I estimate the flat equivalent distance for Route Napoleon to be about 39 km. At 6 km/hr, that would be the equivalent of 6.5 hours walking. If you take even as short a break as 30 min, you will need 7.0 hours, and this will mean arriving well after the end of civil twilight.

It seems that your own duration estimate is 4.5 hours. That would equate to a flat terrain speed of about 8.7 km/hr. I don't think that is very realistic as a planning speed.

1. Effects of bad weather
2. Absence of other walkers at that time, in case you need help
3. Emergency communications in case you need help
4. How much experience you have walking those slopes at those speeds, with a backpack.

Not the same as flat walking in my experience.

It's true Bradpus, walking on steep inclines is another matter. I intend to do the 15% incline section at 4.5 km/h; the 10% to 14% incline sections at 5 km/h and the 5% to 10% incline sections at 5.5 km/h; the rest I intend to do at 6 km/h.

I did not see you include stops to rest or eat included in your math but I am no mathematician.
I am also no cartographer but that 15% incline section may be misleading as there are sections that I am sure are a greater incline than that.
You are getting advice from many and I especially include @Bradypus and @C and @dougfitz clearly because of their wealth of experience. I also read their comments for further Camino knowledge even though I will be starting my 9th camino this October.
All I can think of that for almost all who make goals that seem to many to be unreachable that they often are. Many underestimate just how difficult and trying that first day can be. Maybe you will knock it out and be just fine. But maybe you should think twice about the risk. It is your decision. Buen Camino

 

[trecile]

I just looked back on my Google Maps time line for the first time that I walked the Camino. I did the SJPdP stage in two days with an overnight at Orisson. Between the two days it took me a little less than seven hours. But, it was my very first hiking/backpacking experience at age 58. So it's possible that I could have done it a little faster with more experience and training. But of course I wouldn't have had time to do anything except put my head down and walk. No photographs, no stopping at the food truck for a snack, no time to relax and admire the view. Just a task to get over with.

 

[JonnyRosa]

You originally said 2:30. You seem to be minimizing/adjusting the facts to fit your wishful thinking.

How fast do you "plan" to walk the downhill part, and which route?

Actual visibility will be more complex than the sunset chart might indicate.

Actual walking will be more complex than the distance/elevation/speed calculations suggest.

What hiking experience do you have?

True, I initially said 2:30 p.m. I have been adjusting my planning day by day. I will arrive by bus in SJPP at 1:45 p.m. and I didn't know exactly how long it would take to get to the beginning of the Napoleon route; now that I've reviewed my calculations, I believe I will start at 2:00 p.m. I am planning to walk the downhill part at 6 km/h.
I am very concerned about the brightness at the end of the route, and for safety reasons I am taking a headlamp.
I have no experience in hiking, so the help of colleagues with more experience is very important to me.
I am a street runner, with a lot of experience in running, over 20 years. I have been training for years to run 10 to 15 km regularly, and walking is very comfortable for me. I have been training with the weight/backpack in the steep conditions of this section and I have been doing well.
I'm sure the path will be more complex than the training, and that's exactly why I came to ask for help from anyone who has already done the stretch.
Thank you very much

 

[AchimBerlin]

Thank you very much for your words, Harland.I had researched and the sunset on October 2nd will be at 7:44 pm. Since I plan to start the walking at 2:00 pm and arrive at 6:30 pm, I would have more than an hour to spare. Are you sure that the sunset would be at 6:00 pm? This completely changes my plan.

IMHO you won‘t make the hike over to Roncesvalles in 4 hours 30 minutes.
If you’re a competitive trailrunner maybe.
It’s roughly 25k with 75% uphill over the whole distance. Good luck.

 

[Turga]

I think there is some good food for thought for you here. In the end it’s your call. Whatever you decide, I wish you well and Buen Camino!

 

[trecile]

I have no experience in hiking, so the help of colleagues with more experience is very important to me.
I am a street runner, with a lot of experience in running, over 20 years. I have been training for years to run 10 to 15 km regularly,

I think that you will find hiking 25 km over a mountain pass while carrying a backpack a much different endeavor than street running 10 - 15 km.

 

[JonnyRosa]

I did not see you include stops to rest or eat included in your math but I am no mathematician.
I am also no cartographer but that 15% incline section may be misleading as there are sections that I am sure are a greater incline than that.
You are getting advice from many and I especially include @Bradypus and @C and @dougfitz clearly because of their wealth of experience. I also read their comments for further Camino knowledge even though I will be starting my 9th camino this October.
All I can think of that for almost all who make goals that seem to many to be unreachable that they often are. Many underestimate just how difficult and trying that first day can be. Maybe you will knock it out and be just fine. But maybe you should think twice about the risk. It is your decision. Buen Camino

I did not include rest stops and I intend to eat (protein bars and maltodextrin gel) during the walk. As I said before, I have a little over 1 hour before sunset, so I could include a few minutes of rest if necessary.
As for the incline, in general terms I believe it is correct. There may indeed be small stretches with greater inclines, but most of it will be like this. The worst stretch is 8.5 degrees, which corresponds to an incline of 15% (in general, treadmills work with % incline and not in degrees).
I know that my plan involves risks, and that they could easily be eliminated by leaving the next morning. I have studied this stretch and trained for it, and mainly I have humbly sought help from colleagues who are more experienced in the subject.

 

[CarolamS]

Good luck with your plan. Please check the weather conditions on the mountain at the Pilgrim Office in St Jean. It can be fine in the valley but brutal higher up. Fog, strong wind, heavy rain all commonly occur and you wouldn't know lower down. I think you can also find out the weather conditions at Orrison. At this point you'll be about 1/3 of your way so you'll be able to check your timing too. (At Orrison you can arrange a taxi back to St Jean if necessary.)

 

[JonnyRosa]

I think that you will find hiking 25 km over a mountain pass while carrying a backpack a much different endeavor than street running 10 - 15 km.

I'm sure of it. Even worse than the steep incline, the weight of the backpack, it's like swimming with an anchor.

 

[JonnyRosa]

Good luck with your plan. Please check the weather conditions on the mountain at the Pilgrim Office in St Jean. It can be fine in the valley but brutal higher up. Fog, strong wind, heavy rain all commonly occur and you wouldn't know lower down. I think you can also find out the weather conditions at Orrison. At this point you'll be about 1/3 of your way so you'll be able to check your timing too. (At Orrison you can arrange a taxi back to St Jean if necessary.)

Thank you very much CarolanS.

I really like your suggestion. Bad weather will indeed be a risk factor and in that situation I would not climb. I will include checking the weather conditions on the mountain at the Pilgrim Office in St Jean in my plan.

 

[lettinggo]

Hola

Well.. most of the replies seems to be advicing against doing what you are planing.
Obviously only you know how strong you are and such, but its uphill all the way and with a full backpack, noone will feel that is is an easy task.
Especially for a first day.

How much weight do you plan to have in your backpack?

Im just curious because even military personel with treking load would be challenged in doing the walk in 4-5 hours.

Obviously everyone has their own reason for walking the Camino - no such thing as a right or wrong way to do the Camino.
I hope you will find that the social and nature aspect of the Camino is what keep drawing people to come back again and again.
But an early injury has sent people back home before Pamplona many times.

My observations:
First week: go slow - all week.
Second week: now you know how the system works and you have meet fellow pilgrims - you feet still hates you but not as much as last week.
Third week: The week where people get injured because they now think they are Superman or Superwoman - They walk too fast and too long for too many days. Plenty has to go home in this week.
Fourth week: Time for contemplation - you are nearing Santiago and are beginning to think about home.
Fifth week. You arrive and have done the impossible. From now on in your life you can do the impossible.

Pace yourself.

I did meet a man once who ran the whole camino in 17 days - so anything is possible.

I hope this helps.

Buen Camino
Lettinggo

 

[JonnyRosa]

Hi. JonnyRosa
Rather foolish in my view. as long distance walker how train on the mendips at an average 5.5k per hour. Often the Salisbury Pain 100 k in 17 -18 hours I thought 25k. a few slopes and should do it easy in just under 5 hours. Rain slippery and slippery parts, but I did go through the forest down into Roncesvalles. I managed a fraction over 5.5 hours. Fog. was my worst problem. ( I should have listened to at the advice given out when I got my passport ).I was also the first to get there from SJPP on the Napoleon route. You may have better times going the alternative route. Gong Ho! and the Mountain don't mix. trust me. But try but DO NOT GO THROUGH THE WOODS during darkness. YOU WILL get lost..A wise man will suggest start slowing and improve all the way. ORISON is the best option and start early next day..as suggested.

Hi Bernard.
Once while running, I entered a forest that I had passed through countless times before and the sun was setting. It was really scary, it took me a long time to get out, walking very slowly. This is a huge risk.
Thank you very much for your words.

 

[C clearly]

I believe I will start at 2:00 p.m.

I will include checking the weather conditions on the mountain at the Pilgrim Office in St Jean in my plan.

So, the bus must be on time. You will go to the Pilgrim Office, and you will get to the start of the trail in 15 minutes? Not likely.

What happens if your bus is 15 minutes late? That will encroach on your narrow margin of error. I fear that you will be tempted to foolishly stick with the Plan.

I am planning to walk the downhill part at 6 km/h.

Are you aware of the 2 routes down into Roncesvalles? The slightly shorter steeper one can be hazardous and you won't make it at 6 km/h. I don't remember the slope details of the other, but the same descent must be accomplished. At the end of the day in the wooded area, visibility may not be good. Have you ever used a headlight to walk an unknown trail in the woods?

I have no experience in hiking, so the help of colleagues with more experience is very important to me.

In that case, the advice so far seems overwhelmingly that your plan is not a good one. You seem naive about the potential hazards and it is my opinion that you should not be up there alone at dusk.

Weather conditions can change rapidly in this area, so even if it seems fine at 2 pm in SJPP, it may not be fine coming down on the other side.

 

[JonnyRosa]

Perhaps you should ask your colleagues. I don't think any of us would know what they have done!

You have already heard what other forum members have said, but lets put some numbers around this. On 1 Oct, sunset at Roncesvalles will be about 1947, and civil twilight will end about 30 minutes later at 2018. Barring weather effects, if you leave SJPP around 1430, you will have a bit over five hours of daylight, and not quite six hours where you might be able to walk without artificial lighting. But you will also be walking through wooded areas that will be darker earlier.

Based on a gpx track from the Spanish mapping agency, I estimate the flat equivalent distance for Route Napoleon to be about 39 km. At 6 km/hr, that would be the equivalent of 6.5 hours walking. If you take even as short a break as 30 min, you will need 7.0 hours, and this will mean arriving well after the end of civil twilight.

By mid-Oct, sunset and the end of civil twilight will be about 30 minutes earlier.

note: Brierley suggests the flat equivalent for someone walking at 3 km/hr is 31 km based on an extra 10 min for every 100m of climb. Adjusting his calculations for your faster pace results in a flat equivalent of 39.33 km. I come at this a slightly simpler way, but with a very similar result, 38.72 km.

It seems that your own duration estimate is 4.5 hours. That would equate to a flat terrain speed of about 8.7 km/hr. I don't think that is very realistic as a planning speed.

Hi Dougfitz, I really appreciate your help. I must admit I had never heard of "flat distance equivalent". Where can I find information about this Doug?

Thank you very much

 

[JonnyRosa]

Hola

Well.. most of the replies seems to be advicing against doing what you are planing.
Obviously only you know how strong you are and such, but its uphill all the way and with a full backpack, noone will feel that is is an easy task.
Especially for a first day.

How much weight do you plan to have in your backpack?

Im just curious because even military personel with treking load would be challenged in doing the walk in 4-5 hours.

Obviously everyone has their own reason for walking the Camino - no such thing as a right or wrong way to do the Camino.
I hope you will find that the social and nature aspect of the Camino is what keep drawing people to come back again and again.
But an early injury has sent people back home before Pamplona many times.

My observations:
First week: go slow - all week.
Second week: now you know how the system works and you have meet fellow pilgrims - you feet still hates you but not as much as last week.
Third week: The week where people get injured because they now think they are Superman or Superwoman - They walk too fast and too long for too many days. Plenty has to go home in this week.
Fourth week: Time for contemplation - you are nearing Santiago and are beginning to think about home.
Fifth week. You arrive and have done the impossible. From now on in your life you can do the impossible.

Pace yourself.

I did meet a man once who ran the whole camino in 17 days - so anything is possible.

I hope this helps.

Buen Camino
Lettinggo

Hi Lettinggo, I loved your text.
It's true, most people don't advise me to leave in the afternoon. I wouldn't advise a friend to do this either.
Don't think I'm just crazy; I've been planning this for a while, and I train in the conditions of incline and backpack weight. Speaking of backpack weight, I'll do this stretch with a 3kg backpack.
My flight arrives in Pamplona in the late afternoon; I'll spend the night in Pamplona and leave part of my things (50%) there in Pamplona, to take the bus to SJPP the next day with the 3kg backpack. When I return to Pamplona along the way, I'll pick up the things I left there and continue on my way.

 

[trecile]

Why do you want to get to Roncesvalles the same day that you arrive to St Jean Pied de Port? Is it because you are on a tight schedule? If so, I suggest that you don't push yourself the first few days. Instead, wait until you have found your "Camino legs" and increase your distances later in your trek.

There is a saying that if you start the Camino like a young person you will finish as an old person, but if you start as an old person you can finish as a young person.

I met a young man this year who perfectly illustrated this. He walked from SJPdP to Zubiri his first day, then Zubiri to Pamplona his second day. Then he had to take two days off due to injuring his achilles with his long days and rapid walking pace. So he was no further ahead than if he had walked "traditional" stages. When I met him just after Burgos he was still having trouble with the achilles injury. And others told me that it continued to plague him during his entire Camino.

 

[ArleneLaskey]

I was a marathon (road not trail) runner prior to doing the Camino, and was quite naive about walking long distances day after day. I agree with all of above. But I am also interested to hear what your experience actually is.

 

[trecile]

If you can get a bed at Orisson or Borda (you must reserve these ahead of time) here are a couple of ways that you can split your stages if you need to get to Pamplona in three days:






If you can't reserve at Orissson or Borda you can book a night at SJPdP and get a taxi back from Orisson or perhaps the Virgin of Orisson which is a little further up. The next morning take a taxi back to where you left off.

 

[JonnyRosa]

Why do you want to get to Roncesvalles the same day that you arrive to St Jean Pied de Port? Is it because you are on a tight schedule? If so, I suggest that you don't push yourself the first few days. Instead, wait until you have found your "Camino legs" and increase your distances later in your trek.

There is a saying that if you start the Camino like a young person you will finish as an old person, but if you start as an old person you can finish as a young person.

I met a young man this year who perfectly illustrated this. He walked from SJPdP to Zubiri his first day, then Zubiri to Pamplona his second day. Then he had to take two days off due to injuring his achilles with his long days and rapid walking pace. So he was no further ahead than if he had walked "traditional" stages. When I met him just after Burgos he was still having trouble with the achilles injury. And others told me that it continued to plague him during his entire Camino.

Hi Trecile,
You're right. I have a tight schedule. I'm already spending the night in Pamplona the day before, and I didn't want to spend the night in SJPP and only leave the next day. So I thought about leaving the same day I arrive in SJPP. Based on my planning, I think it's feasible, but I know there are risks. If the weather is bad, I'll definitely leave the next day.
Now, trying to answer your question as honestly as I can, I would say that the same impulse that is driving me to do the Camino de Santiago is what makes me do this stretch as soon as I arrive; I don't know the real reason.

 

[C clearly]

I have added a tag "sjpp to roncesvalles" under the title at the top of this thread. Click on the tag and you will find many useful threads describing the stage.

 

[JonnyRosa]

I was a marathon (road not trail) runner prior to doing the Camino, and was quite naive about walking long distances day after day. I agree with all of above. But I am also interested to hear what your experience actually is.

Hi Arlene,
I think I'm similar to you before you set out on your path. I'm a street runner who loves walking, but who's never taken long walks, day after day.

 

[inspectorwexford]

I have been reading your post with great interest and I admire all your calculations on the time it will take you to reach Roncesvalles and your level of fitness. Please consider one thing ....what if I get into trouble in the mountains and I need to be rescued. Ask yourself ... how will I keep warm if the weather turns or you get injured (an emergency bivi bag is must in your backpack when venturing through the mountains in autumn and winter and especially as you are setting out at 14.30)
what happens if I lose mobile reception, how will I be found, can I navigate my way off the mountains in adverse weather conditions etc. You must also consider the risk you may place on the people who have to rescue you.
You may find this comment OTT but believe me things happen in the mountains and for those who are both badly prepared and to an extent nieve the outcome can be dramatic
Best of luck and buen camino

 

[trecile]

Hi Trecile,
You're right. I have a tight schedule. I'm already spending the night in Pamplona the day before, and I didn't want to spend the night in SJPP and only leave the next day. So I thought about leaving the same day I arrive in SJPP. Based on my planning, I think it's feasible, but I know there are risks. If the weather is bad, I'll definitely leave the next day.

You could just start your Camino from Pamplona as many do.
Or you could take a taxi from Pamplona the day you arrive there rather than spending the night there. I know that it's expensive, but you can possibly find other pilgrims to share the fare. If you are taking the bus or train to Pamplona there will be plenty of other pilgrims heading to SJPdP.

The main thing is to set yourself up for success by not pushing yourself too hard the first few days.

 

[JonnyRosa]

So, the bus must be on time. You will go to the Pilgrim Office, and you will get to the start of the trail in 15 minutes? Not likely.

What happens if your bus is 15 minutes late? That will encroach on your narrow margin of error. I fear that you will be tempted to foolishly stick with the Plan.


Are you aware of the 2 routes down into Roncesvalles? The slightly shorter steeper one can be hazardous and you won't make it at 6 km/h. I don't remember the slope details of the other, but the same descent must be accomplished. At the end of the day in the wooded area, visibility may not be good. Have you ever used a headlight to walk an unknown trail in the woods?


In that case, the advice so far seems overwhelmingly that your plan is not a good one. You seem naive about the potential hazards and it is my opinion that you should not be up there alone at dusk.

Weather conditions can change rapidly in this area, so even if it seems fine at 2 pm in SJPP, it may not be fine coming down on the other side.

Hi C clearly,
Initially I was thinking of going to the Pilgrim Office. I will buy my pass in Pamplona and this way I will be able to leave as soon as the bus arrives in SJPP without necessarily having to go to the Pilgrim Office. To check the weather conditions, I intend to do this by phone.
If the bus is late, I will have to spend the night in SJPP and leave the next day.

 

[JonnyRosa]

I have been reading your post with great interest and I admire all your calculations on the time it will take you to reach Roncesvalles and your level of fitness. Please consider one thing ....what if I get into trouble in the mountains and I need to be rescued. Ask yourself ... how will I keep warm if the weather turns or you get injured (an emergency bivi bag is must in your backpack when venturing through the mountains in autumn and winter and especially as you are setting out at 14.30)
what happens if I lose mobile reception, how will I be found, can I navigate my way off the mountains in adverse weather conditions etc. You must also consider the risk you may place on the people who have to rescue you.
You may find this comment OTT but believe me things happen in the mountains and for those who are both badly prepared and to an extent nieve the outcome can be dramatic
Best of luck and buen camino

Thank you very much for your words inspectorwexford. It is also thinking about the people who would have to help me in the event of an accident that I plan and train very responsibly.

 

[G_the_D]

I'm in agreement with the majority here in saying that what you propose is dangerous. If something goes wrong you may also be putting other people in danger as they attempt to get youbout safely.
I personally think don't stay in Pamplona. Make your way to SJPdP the same day and start early with the rest of the day ahead of you.
The weather is so changeable up there during the day. It will only get more changeable on an autumn evening as the air temperature starts to change.

It is your Camino so enjoy it. Please stay safe.

Gord

 

[henrythedog]

It's true Bradpus, walking on steep inclines is another matter. I intend to do the 15% incline section at 4.5 km/h; the 10% to 14% incline sections at 5 km/h and the 5% to 10% incline sections at 5.5 km/h; the rest I intend to do at 6 km/h.

I am something of a detailed planner myself, but I am somewhat in awe of that degree of precision.

It’s certainly been done before and there’s no reason why you cannot. If your calculations are correct.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I knew @dougfitz would respond with an objective way to estimate the Napoleon’s walking time. I had the figures too but Peg dragged me away for our daily walk. I'm giving my figures now. They are slightly different than Doug’s but he and I are pretty much in agreement.


The Wikipedia page about Naismith’ rule starts with:

Naismith's rule helps with the planning of a walking or hiking expedition by calculating how long it will take to travel the intended route, including any extra time taken when walking uphill. This rule of thumb was devised by William W. Naismith, a Scottish mountaineer, in 1892.​

Briefly, you estimate the time to do a hike by assuming the group walks on the level at 5 kph and every 600 meters of elevation gain will add an hour to the trip. I had previously used a tool to profile and analyze a Route Napoleon GPS track (using the safer way down) and my results found it to be about 25 km long with an 1,400 m elevation gain. Naismith would then estimate the hike to take 7.3 hours. A hike of that duration and speed (7.3 hr x 5 km/hr) would cover 36.5 km on the level. The distance of 36.5 km done at a speed of 6 kph could be expected to take 6.1 hours.

But wait, others have tried to fine tune Naismith's rule. Tranter’s correction appears further down on the Wikipedia page. Tranter created a table showing how to modify Naismith's estimate to take into consideration long, tiring walks and also the level of fitness of the walker(s). Based on information given I estimate @JonnyRosa’s fitness level to be about Tranter level 20 (decreases the time to walk). From this and a Naismith estimate of 7.3 hours (duration increases time to walk) I estimate that Jonny will need about 7 hours to walk the Napoleon.

Jonny, my estimates of 6.1 or 7 hours exceeds yours of 4.5 hours significantly. I suggest you take a 35 km walk on the level and compare Naismith's 7 hr for it and your time with the Tranter table to estimate your fitness level and how much time you may need to do the Napoleon.

BTW, my profile from SJPdP to the Col of Lepoeder shows a maximum slope of 15% (for about 3 km) and an average slope of 7% (4⁰).

 

[Gringazolana]

Dear Johnny, if you were my (very athletic and well-trained) son (with the same name!), I would advise against it. But if you do, please take and know how to use a compass, printed map, lantern, phone, food, and wilderness survival gear.

Love,
Your substitute mom

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

For those reading this thread that are unfamiliar with the two ways down to Roncesvalles from the Col de Lepoeder, there is a forest trail that is marked as the "official" Camino and also a less steep variant way leading to the Col de Ibañeta on the Valcarlos Camino variant. This latter variant follows a paved road and is marked as the "soft" or easy way. There are a number of reports on the forum from people who wanted to avoid the forest way but got confused and ended up taking it by accident (it can be nasty when foggy, raining or wet or you are tired from a full day's walking). The following thread discusses these two ways down in detail. It has a lot of maps, aerial views and pictures.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/road-from-col-leopolder-to-ibaneta.75150/

Also, just above in my previous post I showed one way to calculate the flat/base equivalent distance of a hilly trail is to compute the Naismith estimated time to walk it and then multiply the hours by the speed (5 kph or an American 3 mph). As shown above I got a flat equivalent distance of 36.5 km (6.1 hours). Brierley's guides do something like this. Brierley takes the time needed for the elevation gain (2.3 hours for the Napoleon's 1,400 meters of elevation gain) and multiplies that by a slow uphill speed of 3 kph (not the 5 kph for level walking). Thus Brierley gets for the Napoleon an uphill equivalent distance of 6.9 km that he adds to his walking distance of 25.1 km to end up with a flat equivalent distance of 32 km. So at 6 kph Brierley (RIP) might have given you an estimate of 5.3 hours to get to Roncesvalles.

Brierley's computed flat equivalent distance is shown on the same page for each stage that the measured distance is; it appears to the right of a jagged mountain icon.

One more thing popped into my head. Peg and I walked the Valcarlos alternative route so I can't give you the time we took for the Napoleon. Even if we did, Peg couldn't even dream of walking any distance at 6 kph.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

@JonnyRosa , there's one thing that you've alluded to a couple of times that nobody else has yet picked up on:

treadmills work with % incline and not in degrees).

Are you doing all of your training on a treadmill? If so your distance/speed results will not be accurate. They're applicable to road and sealed paths but not however to rougher terrain.
Training in appropriate terrain will significantly improve this, if you are doing that in addition to your treadmill training then you're probably not too far off.

Treadmills are great for improving fitness/stamina and building the required muscles however your feet will not be used to the constant small movements that we have to make when walking on rougher terrain.

They've been a couple of stories on here of ultramarathon runners struggling in their first week or two on Camino, in part because of the differences between road and trail.

I freely understand your desire to get out there and get moving but I would simply reiterate what others have said:
start slower, finish faster.

Good on you for considering the options (such as taxing back to SJPDP); good luck and Buen Camino.

 

[JonnyRosa]

I am something of a detailed planner myself, but I am somewhat in awe of that degree of precision.

It’s certainly been done before and there’s no reason why you cannot. If your calculations are correct.

Hello Henry,
That's right, I did some very thorough calculations. I did the survey with the help of pilgrims who had already done the trail in the past and recorded the distances and altitudes. Then I divided the sections according to the inclines. Then I calculated the angles of these sections and the % of incline. Then I programmed the treadmill for some workouts on the days I didn't want to train on the streets.

 

[trecile]

Hello Henry,
That's right, I did some very thorough calculations. I did the survey with the help of pilgrims who had already done the trail in the past and recorded the distances and altitudes. Then I divided the sections according to the inclines. Then I calculated the angles of these sections and the % of incline. Then I programmed the treadmill for some workouts on the days I didn't want to train on the streets.

Now you need to program in some rough surfaces with rocks, then add some wind, rain, and low visibility for good measure.

 

[lettinggo]

Hola

Im glad you liked my post and Iv been thinking a little more about this thread.

Im actually impressed by how many have responded with concern about your plan.
It shows that the community are concerned for your well being.

I would like to give you some context about this forum.
Many of the people posting here are veteran pilgrims with many Caminos in their past.
Personally iv been on eight, first one 12 years ago, but I believe some have been on more than twenty..

I think most people will agree that their first Camino was very special, but the more you walk the more perspectives and understanding about the Caminos you get.

Talking about the Napoleon Route it is worth to know that every year people are rescued trying to get over the mountain.
For this reason they closed the pass in the winter months because too many people miss judged the task and got caught in bad weather, got hypotermia or got lost.
The trail is not maked well other than in daylight.
Fog will make it very diffiicult to navigate the route, as well as darkness or snow.

Sadly, for many years people also die while trying to get over the pass.
I believe less now than before when the pass was open during winter, but a heart attack is common problem for pilgrims along the whole Camino.

The trail up is on asphalt road at the beginning, but it will change to off-road trail.
This means small stones and rocks - mud if it is wet - and the wind can be very cold even if the sun is out. This is high altitude - you are not at sea level in any way.

Once you leave Orisson there are few to no options for food and little for water - if any.
So you have to carry all you need with you.
I was thinking about the 3 kilos you plan to carry.
It seems difficult to me.
I would say you need at least 1 1/2 L of water and you need food of some kind.
Dry biscuts might be the best energy/weight, but im sure you have it planned.
Then you need some kind of shell jacket.
At top you will freeze regardless and hypotermia is not an option.
I would also pack a head light - without vision you are helpless.
What about a sleeping bag? Are you planning to use the blankets in Roncesvalles?
My concern is if you are forced to camp out. There are no real shelter up there.
The image im getting in my head is to compare what you are planning with going out to sea in a boat alone. There are some basic things you need to bring - a lifevest, food, water, radio, emergency flare... you get the picture.

Finally, Roncesvalles - you need to book a bed there and I would suggest you write them or phone them and explain your plan so they keep the bed for you, are aware that you might come in late, and that they will keep some food for you.

Pilgrims' hostel

alberguederoncesvalles.com

An alternative could be to book at the hotel.

Look here :

Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port - Roncesvalles (Ruta de Napoleón) | Camino Francés | Gronze.com

Primera etapa del Camino Francés, dura y espectacular como ninguna otra. Por su itinerario principal, conocido como Ruta de Napoleón, cruzamos los Pirineos a través de los Puertos de Cize, ascendiendo desde los 172 metros de altitud de Saint Jean Pied de Port hasta los 1.430 del collado de...

www.gronze.com

So. Thank you for reading.
Now... I think I have changed my view on how I see you and your plan.
Not so much as a pilgrim on the first day on the Camino, but rather as an elite athlet doing something real hard. Like an Ironman.
A man against himself.
And if this is the case then good luck!
Just bear in mind that you came here to get advice from experienced people - and we are all saying the same.

Buen Camino
Lettinggo

 

[JonnyRosa]

I knew @dougfitz would respond with an objective way to estimate the Napoleon’s walking time. I had the figures too but Peg dragged me away for our daily walk. I'm giving my figures now. They are slightly different than Doug’s but he and I are pretty much in agreement.


The Wikipedia page about Naismith’ rule starts with:

Naismith's rule helps with the planning of a walking or hiking expedition by calculating how long it will take to travel the intended route, including any extra time taken when walking uphill. This rule of thumb was devised by William W. Naismith, a Scottish mountaineer, in 1892.​

Briefly, you estimate the time to do a hike by assuming the group walks on the level at 5 kph and every 600 meters of elevation gain will add an hour to the trip. I had previously used a tool to profile and analyze a Route Napoleon GPS track (using the safer way down) and my results found it to be about 25 km long with an 1,400 m elevation gain. Naismith would then estimate the hike to take 7.3 hours. A hike of that duration and speed (7.3 hr x 5 km/hr) would cover 36.5 km on the level. The distance of 36.5 km done at a speed of 6 kph could be expected to take 6.1 hours.

But wait, others have tried to fine tune Naismith's rule. Tranter’s correction appears further down on the Wikipedia page. Tranter created a table showing how to modify Naismith's estimate to take into consideration long, tiring walks and also the level of fitness of the walker(s). Based on information given I estimate @JonnyRosa’s fitness level to be about Tranter level 20 (decreases the time to walk). From this and a Naismith estimate of 7.3 hours (duration increases time to walk) I estimate that Jonny will need about 7 hours to walk the Napoleon.

Jonny, my estimates of 6.1 or 7 hours exceeds yours of 4.5 hours significantly. I suggest you take a 35 km walk on the level and compare Naismith's 7 hr for it and your time with the Tranter table to estimate your fitness level and how much time you may need to do the Napoleon.

BTW, my profile from SJPdP to the Col of Lepoeder shows a maximum slope of 15% (for about 3 km) and an average slope of 7% (4⁰).

Hello Rick,
Thank you very much for taking the time to help me with this task.
I didn't know anything about the Naismith' rule, I'll study it, thanks.

In the final part of the stretch from SJPdP to Roncesvalles there is also a short stretch of 1 km but with a 10% gradient. Apart from this stretch and the 15% one you mentioned, nothing goes above 7.5%.

 

[JonnyRosa]

@JonnyRosa , there's one thing that you've alluded to a couple of times that nobody else has yet picked up on:

Are you doing all of your training on a treadmill? If so your distance/speed results will not be accurate. They're applicable to road and sealed paths but not however to rougher terrain.
Training in appropriate terrain will significantly improve this, if you are doing that in addition to your treadmill training then you're probably not too far off.

Treadmills are great for improving fitness/stamina and building the required muscles however your feet will not be used to the constant small movements that we have to make when walking on rougher terrain.

They've been a couple of stories on here of ultramarathon runners struggling in their first week or two on Camino, in part because of the differences between road and trail.

I freely understand your desire to get out there and get moving but I would simply reiterate what others have said:
start slower, finish faster.

Good on you for considering the options (such as taxing back to SJPDP); good luck and Buen Camino.

Hello Peter,
I sometimes do my workouts by walking outdoors on unpaved stretches with rocks and dirt paths, and I do the longer incline workouts on the treadmill, because there are no steep hills in the area where I live.
Maintaining a rhythm off the treadmill is actually more difficult than on the treadmill. I have been training trying to maintain an average pace within the plan, but all it takes is a distraction to get out of rhythm, which requires a lot of attention.

Thanks!

Dear Johnny, if you were my (very athletic and well-trained) son (with the same name!), I would advise against it. But if you do, please take and know how to use a compass, printed map, lantern, phone, food, and wilderness survival gear.

Love,
Your substitute mom

Dear Mom,

You know I would say the same thing to my son.

I bought a compass and studied it a little. I couldn't believe that even using a compass has something to learn. Have you ever heard of declination ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declination )?

The magnetic pole of the compass and the earth's pole have a phase shift that in my region is 21.8 degrees. Just out of curiosity.

 

[henrythedog]

The magnetic pole of the compass and the earth's pole have a phase shift that in my region is 21.8 degrees. Just out of curiosity.

Happily in eastern Spain it’s less than one degree; so effectively nothing.

Throughout my youth I learned a simple rhyme which told me how to adjust a compass bearing to the orientation of a map, or vice versa. For a few years that’s been irrelevant as the two have coincided within measurement error. In a few years, if I’m still here, I’ll have to remember the rhyme and then remember to do the opposite.

 

[JonnyRosa]

Hola

Im glad you liked my post and Iv been thinking a little more about this thread.

Im actually impressed by how many have responded with concern about your plan.
It shows that the community are concerned for your well being.

I would like to give you some context about this forum.
Many of the people posting here are veteran pilgrims with many Caminos in their past.
Personally iv been on eight, first one 12 years ago, but I believe some have been on more than twenty..

I think most people will agree that their first Camino was very special, but the more you walk the more perspectives and understanding about the Caminos you get.

Talking about the Napoleon Route it is worth to know that every year people are rescued trying to get over the mountain.
For this reason they closed the pass in the winter months because too many people miss judged the task and got caught in bad weather, got hypotermia or got lost.
The trail is not maked well other than in daylight.
Fog will make it very diffiicult to navigate the route, as well as darkness or snow.

Sadly, for many years people also die while trying to get over the pass.
I believe less now than before when the pass was open during winter, but a heart attack is common problem for pilgrims along the whole Camino.

The trail up is on asphalt road at the beginning, but it will change to off-road trail.
This means small stones and rocks - mud if it is wet - and the wind can be very cold even if the sun is out. This is high altitude - you are not at sea level in any way.

Once you leave Orisson there are few to no options for food and little for water - if any.
So you have to carry all you need with you.
I was thinking about the 3 kilos you plan to carry.
It seems difficult to me.
I would say you need at least 1 1/2 L of water and you need food of some kind.
Dry biscuts might be the best energy/weight, but im sure you have it planned.
Then you need some kind of shell jacket.
At top you will freeze regardless and hypotermia is not an option.
I would also pack a head light - without vision you are helpless.
What about a sleeping bag? Are you planning to use the blankets in Roncesvalles?
My concern is if you are forced to camp out. There are no real shelter up there.
The image im getting in my head is to compare what you are planning with going out to see in a boat alone. There are some basic things you need to bring - a lifevest, food, water, radio, emergency flare... you get the picture.

Finally, Roncesvalles - you need to book a bed there and I would suggest you write them or phone them and explain your plan so they keep the bed for you, are aware that you might come in late, and that they will keep some food for you.

Pilgrims' hostel

alberguederoncesvalles.com

An alternative could be to book at the hotel.

Look here :

Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port - Roncesvalles (Ruta de Napoleón) | Camino Francés | Gronze.com

Primera etapa del Camino Francés, dura y espectacular como ninguna otra. Por su itinerario principal, conocido como Ruta de Napoleón, cruzamos los Pirineos a través de los Puertos de Cize, ascendiendo desde los 172 metros de altitud de Saint Jean Pied de Port hasta los 1.430 del collado de...

www.gronze.com

So. Thank you for reading.
Now... I think I have changed my view on how I see you and your plan.
Not so much as a pilgrim on the first day on the Camino, but rather as an elite athlet doing something real hard. Like an Ironman.
A man against himself.
And if this is the case then good luck!
Just bear in mind that you came here to get advice from experienced people - and we are all saying the same.

Buen Camino
Lettinggo

You are right Lettinggo.

And I am deeply grateful for the help each and every one of you has brought me.

 

[camster]

I wouldn't recommend it. The views are so beautiful, you'll want to lift your eyes up and drink the sight up many times. I had a similar pace on flat, but this stretch will throw all your calculations about pace out the window. I would have never left at this hour on other regular camino days, so for the Pyrenees, an absolute no for me. 7-7h30 am at the latest.

 

[JonnyRosa]

Happily in eastern Spain it’s less than one degree; so effectively nothing.

Throughout my youth I learned a simple rhyme which told me how to adjust a compass bearing to the orientation of a map, or vice versa. For a few years that’s been irrelevant as the two have coincided within measurement error. In a few years, if I’m still here, I’ll have to remember the rhyme and then remember to do the opposite.

Hi Henry,
It's good that you learned this when you were young. I only came to know this now that I'm going to do the "Caminho".

 

[bestfootforward]

In early October, I plan to do the route from Sant Jean Pied de Port to Roncesvalles, leaving SJPP in the afternoon, around 2:30 p.m. I walk frequently and quickly, averaging 6 km/h. I would like to know if any of my colleagues have already done this route in the afternoon and what challenges I might be forgetting.

Hi,
I have only one question: Why......why is your plan so rigid?

 

[JonnyRosa]

Hi,
I have only one question: Why......why is your plan so rigid?

Hi,
The plan is rigid because the task is difficult and may harm others besides myself. It reminds me of the expression: "Failing to plan is planning to fail."

 

[dougfitz]

Hi Dougfitz, I really appreciate your help. I must admit I had never heard of "flat distance equivalent". Where can I find information about this Doug?

Thank you very much

This Wikipedia article on Naismith's Rule would be a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naismith's_rule

Edit: I have reviewed the earlier responses, and I see that @Rick of Rick and Peg gave a more complete response earlier.

For the sake of clarity, I used a track provided by the Spanish Federation of Associations of Friends of the Camino de Santiago that is also the track provided by the Spanish mapping agency. I used one that takes the less steep but slightly longer approach into Roncesvalles after the Alto de Lepoeder. I then used Google Earth Pro to analyse the elevation profile, with the following results: distance 24.2 km, elevation gain/loss +1484m/-711m, average slope +8.6%/-8.5%, maximum slope +26.7%/-34.9%.

Please treat these figures with caution. I did note that the track I used was not always in perfect alignment with the roads and paths displayed in Google Earth. This has the potential to throw out both the distance and slope calculations.

 

[C clearly]

I plan and train very responsibly.

The plan is rigid because the task is difficult and may harm others besides myself.

It is your rigid plan that is introducing the potential harm.

 

[Bob Howard]

Perhaps you should ask your colleagues. I don't think any of us would know what they have done!

You have already heard what other forum members have said, but lets put some numbers around this. On 1 Oct, sunset at Roncesvalles will be about 1947, and civil twilight will end about 30 minutes later at 2018. Barring weather effects, if you leave SJPP around 1430, you will have a bit over five hours of daylight, and not quite six hours where you might be able to walk without artificial lighting. But you will also be walking through wooded areas that will be darker earlier.

Based on a gpx track from the Spanish mapping agency, I estimate the flat equivalent distance for Route Napoleon to be about 39 km. At 6 km/hr, that would be the equivalent of 6.5 hours walking. If you take even as short a break as 30 min, you will need 7.0 hours, and this will mean arriving well after the end of civil twilight.

By mid-Oct, sunset and the end of civil twilight will be about 30 minutes earlier.

note: Brierley suggests the flat equivalent for someone walking at 3 km/hr is 31 km based on an extra 10 min for every 100m of climb. Adjusting his calculations for your faster pace results in a flat equivalent of 39.33 km. I come at this a slightly simpler way, but with a very similar result, 38.72 km.

It seems that your own duration estimate is 4.5 hours. That would equate to a flat terrain speed of about 8.7 km/hr. I don't think that is very realistic as a planning speed.

Dougfitz. Direct, thoughtful and reliable as always. And, as usual, he brings data to the conversation.

 

[Robo]

I wish you every luck.
But having walked the Frances a couple of times from St Jean……
I would agree with all the great advice here.

Let me put it this way.
With that plan and approach.
My money is on you not making it past Burgos.
Sorry.

Even given your street running experience and fitness, walking long days, day after day, is a very different thing.

 

[trecile]

It is your rigid plan that is introducing the potential harm.

Being able to be flexible when conditions change (because they will!) is important on the Camino, and in life.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Jonny I wrote you a private message. Since you are new that means click on the envelope icon on the top of the page.

 

[Tortilla]

I imagine that the day after walking from SJPP to Roncesvalles in 4 hours, you want to walk in one day from Roncesvalles to Pamplona? Please tell me I'm wrong...

 

[David Tallan]

Hi C clearly,
Initially I was thinking of going to the Pilgrim Office. I will buy my pass in Pamplona and this way I will be able to leave as soon as the bus arrives in SJPP without necessarily having to go to the Pilgrim Office. To check the weather conditions, I intend to do this by phone.
If the bus is late, I will have to spend the night in SJPP and leave the next day.

Just a note that if you are intending to get a Distance Certificate when you arrive in Santiago, but don't get your credencial stamped in SJPP and only when you arrive in Roncesvalles, then you will be seen as having started in Roncesvalles, the location of your first stamp. Of course, if you aren't getting a Distance Certificate, this is irrelevant.

I won't add my 2 cents about the afternoon wall. Our more experienced pilgrims have all chimed in and been consistent with their advice. I don't think anything I write is likely to make you or or less likely to take it. I will note that you did ask for the advice, though.

 

[trecile]

Just a note that if you are intending to get a Distance Certificate when you arrive in Santiago, but don't get your credencial stamped in SJPP and only when you arrive in Roncesvalles, then you will be seen as having started in Roncesvalles, the location of your first stamp

But he can stop into a bar or restaurant really quickly for a stamp. It doesn't have to be from the Pilgrims Office.

 

[Pilgrim9]

In early October, I plan to do the route from Sant Jean Pied de Port to Roncesvalles, leaving SJPP in the afternoon, around 2:30 p.m.

In my humble opinion, planning to start in the afternoon is really unwise. It sets the stage for serious problems or at least an extremely difficult and unpleasant start to one's pilgrimage.

Life is short. Do not make it shorter.

 

[Robo]

Probably a good time to recognise the great work carried out by the local Bomberos. (Fire and rescue).

If you want to drop in a ‘thank you’ donation, this is one way…..

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/bomberos-in-burgette-gift.54921/

 

[C clearly]

Being able to be flexible when conditions change (because they will!) is important on the Camino, and in life.

True. But the flexibility exists only until it doesn't - i.e. up there in the dark, when it unexpectedly becomes cold and wet.

 

[David Tallan]

But he can stop into a bar or restaurant really quickly for a stamp. It doesn't have to be from the Pilgrims Office.

I wasn't thinking his plan called for him to stop in bars and restaurants on that first day of walking.

 

[Robo]

Being able to be flexible when conditions change (because they will!) is important on the Camino, and in life.

True. But the flexibility exists only until it doesn't - i.e. up there in the dark, when it unexpectedly becomes cold and wet.

Both very true I think.

I recall two mountain crossings from St Jean, both at exactly the same time of year in the last week of April.

First, Blue skies. Warm, just walking in a shirt, frequent stops to take in the views. Bits of snow still around. Glorious. I almost broke into song "Sound of Music" style.

Second. Low cloud reduced visibility to about 100 metres. Strong winds about 30 knots and driving rain. Very cold. Base layer, warm layer, rain layer. and still cold if we did not keep moving. 'Across the top' we were head into the wind and just kept going. We stopped in the rescue hut at the top briefly to eat a chocolate bar, but then kept moving so we didn't lose body heat too fast.

And both times, from down in the Valley at St Jean, it looked like a nice day.........

 

[WalkingLester]

If you must walk that day take a taxi from Pamplona and arrive earlier, it will cost about 150€. Maybe you can find someone to share the taxi.
You got a ton of advice from people who have done this before and it seems the advice is, almost universally, not to do this (I couldn’t read all the posts). It’s not that your plan is impossible, it’s just a bad idea.
I kind of wish a moderator would close this thread. I truly wish you a buen camino. You have a long way to go. Slow down.

 

[JonnyRosa]

Just a note that if you are intending to get a Distance Certificate when you arrive in Santiago, but don't get your credencial stamped in SJPP and only when you arrive in Roncesvalles, then you will be seen as having started in Roncesvalles, the location of your first stamp. Of course, if you aren't getting a Distance Certificate, this is irrelevant.

I won't add my 2 cents about the afternoon wall. Our more experienced pilgrims have all chimed in and been consistent with their advice. I don't think anything I write is likely to make you or or less likely to take it. I will note that you did ask for the advice, though.

Hello David,
Thank you very much for your words.

I value and respect and deeply appreciate the advice I am receiving. It is very important and certainly taken into consideration.

 

[JonnyRosa]

I imagine that the day after walking from SJPP to Roncesvalles in 4 hours, you want to walk in one day from Roncesvalles to Pamplona? Please tell me I'm wrong...

I loved your guess, Tortilla!

Very close to that. In fact, if for some reason, whether I listened to my colleagues here, the bus was very late, or the weather was rainy, I would spend the night in SJPP and leave the next morning. In this specific situation, I would adjust my schedule and do 21 km to Zubiri, have lunch and in the afternoon 20 km to Pamplona.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Another thought. From Pamplona you could take the 13:30 Autocares Artieda bus to Roncevalles (Mondays to Fridays) arriving at 14:40 and walk in reverse to SJPdP and that would be mostly downhill and faster and getting you out of bad weather instead of into it. Spend the night there and hitchhike or taxi back the next morning. You could take the ALSA/CONDA bus back to Roncesvalles but that would probably be too late for you to walk your planned day two.

Edit: A taxi from SJPdP to Roncesvalles would be cheaper and faster than one from Pamplona to SJPdP.

 

[Robo]

Another thought. From Pamplona you could take the 13:30 Autocares Artieda bus to Roncevalles (Mondays to Fridays) arriving at 14:40 and walk in reverse to SJPdP and that would be mostly downhill and faster and getting you out of bad weather instead of into it. Spend the night there and hitchhike or taxi back the next morning. You could take the ALSA/CONDA bus back to Roncesvalles but that would probably be too late for you to walk your planned day two.

Interesting alternative.........

 

[trecile]

Before you leave for the Camino I suggest that you set aside at least 4 consecutive days and walk 15 - 20 km each day with your backpack. This is a test to see how your feet and body handle the consecutive days of long distance walking. Do it outside, not on your treadmill. If you have time, walk at least 30 km on one of those days.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Before you leave for the Camino I suggest that you set aside at least 4 consecutive days and walk 15 - 20 km each day with your backpack.

Agree. I had both new shoes and new arch supports for camino #2. I found no problems in training with 10 km walks every few days. After five days of camino and the last one on much asphalt a knee that day kept collapsing on me, even having me hit the ground three times. Fortunately I was able to modify the arch support to get me almost back to normal the next day and the problem was gone the day after that.

 

[dougfitz]

In the final part of the stretch from SJPdP to Roncesvalles there is also a short stretch of 1 km but with a 10% gradient. Apart from this stretch and the 15% one you mentioned, nothing goes above 7.5%.

I have provided some average slope figures earlier, as well as some maximum slopes figures. The suggestion that nothing goes above 7.5% appears optimistic.

I imagine that the day after walking from SJPP to Roncesvalles in 4 hours, you want to walk in one day from Roncesvalles to Pamplona? Please tell me I'm wrong...

Depending upon where in Pamplona, that would be a 42 km day with over 900m of climb and 1400m of descent. If @JonnyRosa, you have been training at around the 10-15 km distance, stepping up to that is going to be a huge effort.

 

[VNwalking]

Coming late to this, and have to agree with the cautious replies others have made.

Given weather, surface, and vagaries of bus schedules, it would be safer and more relaxed to walk part way if you need to start in the afternoon. Those are mountains, with mountain conditions - at the very least intense, and they kill people every year.

Thinking in terms of pacing -
Running on roads and treadmills is utterly different than what you'll be doing on the Camino. Apples and oranges. I've run 9 marathons, and done a handful of olympic-distance triathlons and one half-Ironman - as compared 8 Caminos, so have a sense of both. Perhaps if you were just doing one day on the Camino, the kind of speed you're able to do at home would be an accurate assessment of what you'll be doing on tbe camino. But it's not one day, it's plus or minus 30. So pacing yourself accordingly is important. You wouldn't run a 5K at the same pace as a marathon...same idea.

I get it that time is tight.
There's another option, though, that gets you well along, further than just Orrisson. If you walk via Valcarlos route and stay the night in Valcarlos, you'll have walked about 12.5 km - and since it's relatively flat, that would allow you time in SJPP to get your credential stamped before you hit the road. Then the next day you can continue past Roncesvalles (on the Valcarlos route, the steep part is after Valcarlos). As well as being the older and more 'authentic' way, it's gorgeous and seriously underrated.

Whatever you chose...buen camino!

 

[Richard Smith]

One thing that bothers me with the plan was the statement that you are leaving most of your gear in Pamplona and walking the SJPdP to Pamplona with a 3kg backpack.
This first section is the one where I think you have most need of warm and waterproof gear, I didnt find any of the other climbs so challenging. By leaving late in the day, you will have few other walkers around and will need to be self sufficient.
Secondly if you don't need the extra gear for SJPdP then why walk with it at all, if it is before/after camino things then just ship the whole lot to Santiago.

 

[bestfootforward]

It is your rigid plan that is introducing the potential harm.

Hi,
The plan is rigid because the task is difficult and may harm others besides myself. It reminds me of the expression: "Failing to plan is planning to fail."

I get your planning but as Cclearly says, it's the rigidity that's so potentially problematic. Your calculations are on paper but don't account for the weather and other variables including the possibility of a later than planned arrival in SJPdP......the phrase "always respect a mountain" comes to mind and the conditions up there can change in a nano-second. Your safety and well-being....as well as that of those who may be called out to help you are at the heart of everyone's comments. You'll make your decision. Whatever you decide, I wish you a safe Camino

 

[ginniek]

When you said that you were a street runner with no hiking experience, I felt both nauseated and anxious (and I'm a yoga instructor and usually pretty chill). It's because I remembered a very serious accident in the foothills of the Appalachians in northwestern Georgia (US) the first summer of COVID. I didn't know them, but I was hiking in the same area, and was briefed when I got to the Hike Inn. A young couple from Atlanta were experienced runners but had no hiking experience, and their running shoes and lack of anything for hiking safety etc. showed the rescue team this. The section of the trail they were on is not dangerously steep, but it is very rocky, and was somewhat slippery from light rain that day. They were running. The young man fell and was seriously injured. The young woman took off running to get help, and fell down a small, but steep, ravine and perished. Sorry to be so morbid, but things do happen.

 

[Dani7]

Please let us know how your walk to Roncesvalles went. I hope all goes well according to plan and you arrive safely and without incident. Let wisdom and common sense guide you to modify any plan that no longer suits the moment. Buen camino.

 

[PierreAmi]

@JonnyRosa How many seconds ;-) did you plan talking to fellow pilgrims on your first Camino day? I still have good memories walking hours together with a man from South Africa on my first day to Roncesvalles. (I still regret I forgot his name) Talking other pilgrims from all over the world was what I liked the most on the Camino.
Buen Camino!

 

[Tortilla]

@JonnyRosa How many seconds ;-) did you plan talking to fellow pilgrims on your first Camino day? I still have good memories walking hours together with a man from South Africa on my first day to Roncesvalles. (I still regret I forgot his name) Talking other pilgrims from all over the world was what I liked the most on the Camino.
Buen Camino!

He won't talk to anyone because no one else walks to Roncesvalles at that time. And that's actually the biggest advantage I see in his approach. Although for me, leaving at 2 pm would be too late. But I've done the Napoleon route several times and twice I started at 10-11 am walking straight from the train from Bayonne and those two times have been my favorites so far. Simply because I had entire Napoleon route (almost) to myself.

Added: So, if I were in his place, I wouldn't sleep the night before in Pamplona (and wait until noon for that one miserable Alsa bus) but would try to get to Bayonne on the day of my arrival to Pamplona. There are evening buses from Pamplona to Bayonne (you have to change in San Sebastian). After a night in Bayonne, I would take the first morning train to SJPP and head out on the trail.

Even sleeping in San Sebastian instead of Pamplona would be better, because there is a 6am Alsa bus from San Sebastian to Bayonne and you can take a 8-9 am train from Bayonne to SJPP and start walking at 10:30.

 

[Robo]

He won't talk to anyone because no one else walks to Roncesvalles at that time. And that's actually the biggest advantage I see in his approach. Although for me, leaving at 2 pm would be too late. But I've done the Napoleon route several times and twice I started at 10-11 am walking straight from the train from Bayonne and those two times have been my favorites so far. Simply because I had entire Napoleon route (almost) to myself.

Added: So, if I were in his place, I wouldn't sleep the night before in Pamplona (and wait until noon for that one miserable Alsa bus) but would try to get to Bayonne on the day of my arrival to Pamplona. There are evening buses from Pamplona to Bayonne (you have to change in San Sebastian). After a night in Bayonne, I would take the first morning train to SJPP and head out on the trail.

Sounds like a good option.
Or just share a taxi from Pamplona to St Jean like many do. (But of course extra passengers won't be a 'given')

 

[Tortilla]

Or just share a taxi from Pamplona to St Jean like many do. (But of course extra passengers won't be a 'given')

That is a gut-wrenching ride (and expensive)

 

[Robo]

That is a gut-wrenching ride (and expensive)

Never done it myself, but many do it seems.........

 

[m108]

I can't judge whether you can do it (I suppose it could be difficult). But - trudging through arguably the most beautiful part of the trail? Of course, it also depends on your motivation for walking. There is no way I would cross the Pyrenees this way. And not only because I wouldn't be able to do it, but because I think I would miss a lot. People are different. Slower walking also allows for a different "happening" in the head and soul - when we are not concerned with minutes. When you stop and admire the world in silence and peace, you allow yourself to be empty-headed and just experience the moment (or 10-15 minutes) - this is an essential part of the Camino for me. I have the feeling that with such a "race" you might lose a large part of the beauty of walking (along the Camino). But, of course - as I mentioned - it depends on your motive for walking the Camino.

 

[Petsu]

In early October, I plan to do the route from Sant Jean Pied de Port to Roncesvalles, leaving SJPP in the afternoon, around 2:30 p.m. I walk frequently and quickly, averaging 6 km/h. I would like to know if any of my colleagues have already done this route in the afternoon and what challenges I might be forgetting.

I have done it three times- in 1996,1998 and 2002, but It was late August in 1996 and late April in the two other times, so there was more sunlight hours than in October. In 2007 I opted for a stay in Orrisson - as I knew I was older and heavier - and it made the whole start of the Camino wayyyy easier and not a single blister after the first day .

 

[Joynz]

Hi Bernard.
Once while running, I entered a forest that I had passed through countless times before and the sun was setting. It was really scary, it took me a long time to get out, walking very slowly. This is a huge risk.
Thank you very much for your words.

You need to make sure you have a good headlamp - with a good range and enough battery power to last much longer than you need for the days walk. I have a Black Diamond headlamp but there are lots of similar ones used by long distance walkers.

 

[Anhalter]

I'd rather get a bed at Orisson or Borda. Even if you are able to make it in 4-5h to Roncesvalles, which is no small feat, you will walk most of the afternoon (statistically higher chance for bad weather/thunderstorms) and maybe even a bit in the dark (which is also a risk on a not-so-gentle downhill track). You will have little time to enjoy the mountains. You will have little time to enjoy Roncesvalles and connect to fellow pilgrims. I don't really see the upside of your plan.
Staying in the mountain albergues, you take a lot of pressure out of it. You have the chance of experiencing an incredible sunrise in the mountains. You reduce the risk of hurting yourself on day one. And you can still make it to Pamplona in 2 days from there.

 

[JabbaPapa]

In early October, I plan to do the route from Sant Jean Pied de Port to Roncesvalles, leaving SJPP in the afternoon, around 2:30 p.m. I walk frequently and quickly, averaging 6 km/h. I would like to know if any of my colleagues have already done this route in the afternoon and what challenges I might be forgetting.

On my 1994, I was walking an average 42K/day, and had about a month of the Camino already in my legs.

I left SJPP at about 11AM, and just barely made it to the Albergue in Roncesvalles in time. I was averaging about 6kph on the flat.

But that was in July or August.

Sunset will be much earlier, and October weather in the Pyrenees is unpredictable. I was a very fast walker, and your plan is unrealistic. Start the next morning instead, as by October some Albergues will already be closed.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I have no experience in hiking

Oh, well then most DEFINITELY abandon this plan !!

 

[JabbaPapa]

One final point - - don't overplan.

Bring your whole pack to SJPP, start in the morning, go no further than Roncesvalles - - whatever time you "lose", you are fast enough to make it up later and on easier terrain.

 

[Kathar1na]

Perhaps you should ask your colleagues. I don't think any of us would know what they have done!

I may be misreading comments in this thread but I think that we here on the forum are meant when @JonnyRosa refers to "colleagues".