Respectful donativo amounts in 2024

[JustJack]

Given all the inflation of the past couple years, do you (especially those with hospitalero experience) think that the following are reasonable amounts to leave when staying at a donativo on the VDLP?

- bed only, with no additional services: €10
- bed with breakfast: €15
- bed with dinner: €20

I really (really) don't want to get into a debate about donativos, I just want to know if leaving these amounts in 2024 would be seen as reasonable by the hospitalero working there. In particular when dinner is involved - is €10 a reasonable amount to include for dinner? That's less than what a pilgrim menu generally costs so perhaps it's too little.

I understand it's up to each person, and there are many variables. I didn't use any donativos last year, but I'm walking on more of a budget this year and hope to stay at a few (not just for budgetary reasons, I also just want to experience it).

Thanks for your yes/no thoughts.

 

[dick bird]

Hospitaler@s are strictly forbidden to stipulate or suggest an amount that should be donated. But we are allowed to explain to pilgrims that donativos do not run on air: they have to pay their bills and maintain the building and facilities just like everyone else. If you stay in an albergue, it exists and provides simply because the pilgrims who arrived before you have donated. If you do not donate, the albergue will cease to exist. So, if you stay in an albergue, think about the market cost of what you are being given, remember that not everyone who stays there can afford to pay as much as you, and act as your heart and head tell you.

 

[VNwalking]

It's a completely different economy.
The amount is not transactional.
You're not paying for something, You're offering a donation to support those who walk in the door tomorrow.

So are those reasonable donations? You say you're on a budget, and only you will know the balance of generosity and what you can afford. I'd say maximize the former while staying within the limits of former.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I have only stayed in donativos a couple go times. I think intuitively I know what is reasonable but just pretty much put in what the average price is for a bed and then similar for food. Guess it would total up to €25-30 ish.

I do prefer to pay a predetermined rate but understand there is a broader picture. To be honest I have never been a big fan of ‘pay what you can afford’ as I guess I come from a culture where if you can’t afford something, or raise the funds to do so, then you don’t do it! I don’t mean essentials like food and housing, but ‘extras’ such as Camino travel, etc. I don’t mind paying a a good price but don’t like the ideas of others playing less! Just the way I am. Others will see things differently!

I guess it a bit like tipping. Much sooner pay a fixed service charge, or ‘free’ city tours!

 

[Robo]

As remarked above, it's hard to suggest an amount.
People may view it as a fair market price or something.
You donate what you can.

As an example, I had a wonderful communal meal at a well known Donativo on the VdlP last year.
They obviously did not have much in the tin from the day before, and tried to make it stretch to feeding about 12 people. But it was fine. The meal was sufficient and the company good. Soup, Tuna Salad, Fries.
The hospi did a great loaves and fishes job!

I met some Pilgrims who stayed there a couple of nights after us, and they had great meal.
With meat!

Donativos make do, with what they have.

 

[simply B]

I have only stayed in donativos a couple go times. I think intuitively I know what is reasonable but just pretty much put in what the average price is for a bed and then similar for food. Guess it would total up to €25-30 ish.

I do prefer to pay a predetermined rate but understand there is a broader picture. To be honest I have never been a big fan of ‘pay what you can afford’ as I guess I come from a culture where if you can’t afford something, or raise the funds to do so, then you don’t do it! I don’t mean essentials like food and housing, but ‘extras’ such as Camino travel, etc. I don’t mind paying a a good price but don’t like the ideas of others playing less! Just the way I am. Others will see things differently!

I guess it a bit like tipping. Much sooner pay a fixed service charge, or ‘free’ city tours!

I agree with everything you said but for...

don’t like the ideas of others playing less!

I get the sentiment.... but it's kinda like walking 800 km and getting the same Compostela as someone who walks 100 km. I had to reconcile myself to Matthew 20:1-16.

It probably doesn't work for everyone but, after several walks? Well, it works for me.

B

 

[Robo]

I think one of the magical parts of walking a Camino, is interacting with the people along the way.
The locals and the Pilgrims.

Sharing our stories with other Pilgrims, supporting each other, hearing why they are walking.
It's truly humbling. It makes me so grateful for what I have.
We learn not to judge others, or give in to first impressions.

That person who seems fine, and has a nice pack and shoes, we later may find has had a really tough life.
Has recently gone through hell and back.
Their gear is borrowed or from a charity shop.
And they were only able to walk a Camino with the support of family and friends.
And they have to be careful with every cent.

I like to think of those Pilgrims when I decide what to put in the Donativo box.
Because maybe they can't put much or anything at all.
And they deserve a bed and a meal just as much as anyone.

I'm sure many of us have met those Pilgrims.........

 

[TravellingMan22]

I agree with everything you said but for...


I get the sentiment.... but it's kinda like walking 800 km and getting the same Compostela as someone who walks 100 km. I had to reconcile myself to Matthew 20:1-16.

It probably doesn't work for everyone but, after several walks? Well, it works for me.

B

Sure appreciate many people won’t agree! Without diving in to deep ‘what you can afford’ is quite flexible concept!! Is it just the money in your pocket, and your ability to get credit to be able to pay… etc!

I guess the Camino seems to be largely full of people from the more affluent countries, which doesn’t mean everyone is affluent of course but largely from countries where employment, and access to credit, is high, and people have the choice to spend a considerable amount of money on walking a Camino. I am happy to sponsor and pay to support poor people and have sponsored people from poor countries through their education, but subsiding Camino walkers feels a bit weird!

Just my take of course! Always exceptions to rule!

 

[Anniesantiago]

If you're getting a bed and a meal,
my advice is to think about what you'd pay
for a bed and a meal at home
and...
remember, the money you leave tonight will feed the pilgrims that eat here tomorrow.

 

[VNwalking]

I guess it a bit like tipping.

Actually not at all. With donations there are no expectations. It's a different paradigm altogether. Generosity without strings attached, rather than a gratuity for service rendered. And not payment. Donativo is neither transactional nor contractual. - and if those things are all you know, it's not easy to understand. But just be generous. It's actually not that hard.
(Edited for typos...)

 

[TravellingMan22]

Actually not at all. With donations there are no expectations. It's a different aradigm altogether. Generosity without strings attached, and not a gratuity for service rendered. And not payment. Donattivo is not transactional nor contractual. - and if all you know only that it's not easy to understand. But just be generous. It's actually not that hard.

I am a very generous person. Alway have been.
… but I get annoyed by people who can pay and won’t. Sure we have all been on the ‘free city tours’ that last a few hours and seen the couple with the designer clothes and the expensive camera offer up a few coins!

We see a lot on here about how little is often in the donativo box. So something is amiss. In my few stays many put virtually nothing in, many confessing to as little as €5. Maybe all these wonderful and humble pilgrims are not so wonderful after all! It strikes me as shocking given the demographic walking.

We are never going to agree and that’s fine but cutting to the chase, I just don’t accept that there are many people waling a Camino that cannot put €15-20 and pay their way. If the Camino was full of folks from the world’s poor countries I would see it differently!

 

[Peregrinopaul]

Given all the inflation of the past couple years, do you (especially those with hospitalero experience) think that the following are reasonable amounts to leave when staying at a donativo on the VDLP….

Questions on the forum usually generate a wide variety of responses. Not here. The answer to your question would seem to be either a 'yes or a 'no'. The question was "Is this amount reasonable?", not "Is this amount generous?" I would say yes to the first and no to the second. Is anyone in a position to tell us what donativos actually do receive per head?

 

[Former member 104756]

When we stay in donativo albergues, we give at least what we would in a non-donativo albergue, on the basis that others who come before or after may not be able to.

Hospitaler@s are strictly forbidden to stipulate or suggest an amount that should be donated. But we are allowed to explain to pilgrims that donativos do not run on air: they have to pay their bills and maintain the building and facilities just like everyone else. If you stay in an albergue, it exists and provides simply because the pilgrims who arrived before you have donated. If you do not donate, the albergue will cease to exist. So, if you stay in an albergue, think about the market cost of what you are being given, remember that not everyone who stays there can afford to pay as much as you, and act as your heart and head tell you.

Well said. Recently we spent time living for some months in France in a town on the Camino Le Puy. We volunteered with the local donativo gite presbytere. There was a sign in French with information about the gite, which I translated for them into an English version. The sign stated upfront and strongly that all were welcome irrespective of whether or not they were able to donate. There was then information about time of vespers for those who wanted to attend, dinner, lights out, breakfast etc. And later a paragraph that for those who were able to pay but not knowing what amount to offer ...

'Our volunteer hospitaliers and managers give their time and care freely, but the maintenance of the gite and offering of meals comes at a cost. We estimate the minimum cost for dinner, overnight stay and breakfast is around 22 euros per pilgrim.'

For me, that would be an absolute minimum to contribute. But I thought this was a useful and sensitive way to give some context to those staying in the gite who could afford to pay but wondering how much to contribute. The donation box was entirely 'private'. There was no way of knowing who had contributed what.

 

[TravellingMan22]

When we stay in donativo albergues, we give at least what we would in a non-donativo albergue, on the basis that others who come before or after may not be able to.

Well said. Recently we spent time living for some months in France in a town on the Camino Le Puy. We volunteered with the local donativo gite presbytere. There was a sign in French with information about the gite, which I translated for them into an English version. The sign stated upfront and strongly that all were welcome irrespective of whether or not they were able to donate. There was then information about time of vespers for those who wanted to attend, dinner, lights out, breakfast etc. And later a paragraph that for those who were able to pay but not knowing what amount to offer ...

'Our volunteer hospitaliers and managers give their time and care freely, but the maintenance of the gite and offering of meals comes at a cost. We estimate the minimum cost for dinner, overnight stay and breakfast is around 22 euros per pilgrim.'

For me, that would be an absolute minimum to contribute. But I thought this was a useful and sensitive way to give some context to those staying in the gite who could afford to pay but wondering how much to contribute. The donation box was entirely 'private'. There was no way of knowing who had contributed what.

Agreed. Sort of guidance I would appreciate as not a donativo regular!

 

[Former member 104756]

Agreed. Sort of guidance I would appreciate as not a donativo regular!

Yes, but for me this is an absolute minimum - just covering costs if everyone were able to donate. That’s why we pay at least what we would in a typical non donativo albergue, and usually more.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Yes, but for me this is an absolute minimum - just covering costs if everyone were able to donate. That’s why we pay at least what we would in a typical non donativo albergue, and usually more.

Yes agreed. A minimum is great and knowing this I would certainly pay above as I am able to at this point in my life. To me that say something like €35 plus loose €1 coins!

I’m just not happy with the number of folks that leave very little, and can afford too, which seem to be a fair few!! I don’t really see that in any other aspects of my life but many on Camino seem to be always on ‘the take’!!!

 

[JustJack]

Thanks everyone, some helpful comments here.

 

[Dani7]

If you can afford to pay more, it helps those who cannot…and helps keep the donativo going.

If not, pay what you can or would at a municipal and what you would normally be able to afford or would spend for your meal.

 

[Albertagirl]

As an experienced hospitalera, I have always been most comfortable in those albergues where I could not see the amount that any pilgrim put in the box (for example, a slit in the wall to which I had no key, and would tell pilgrims to insert what they could when I was not present). But I have sometimes felt quite concerned that the donativos where I volunteered would have to close for lack of funds. To respond to the original question, I have, when a pilgrim, asked myself the same question and generally concluded by finding myself with the same answer.

 

[dick bird]

Yes agreed. A minimum is great and knowing this I would certainly pay above as I am able to at this point in my life. To me that say something like €35 plus loose €1 coins!

I’m just not happy with the number of folks that leave very little, and can afford too, which seem to be a fair few!! I don’t really see that in any other aspects of my life but many on Camino seem to be always on ‘the take’!!!

I believe economists have a technical term for it: ´the tragedy of the commons´ (nothing to do with the house of). There are some who do, indeed, pay less than they should. If that is a reason for you or I to pay no more than the bare minimum, who suffers? The fact that some pay less (whether out of greed or need) is all the more reason for the rest of us to pay more so that the albergue can survive.

 

[TravellingMan22]

As an experienced hospitalera, I have always been most comfortable in those albergues where I could not see the amount that any pilgrim put in the box (for example, a slit in the wall to which I had no key, and would tell pilgrims to insert what they could when I was not present). But I have sometimes felt quite concerned that the donativos where I volunteered would have to close for lack of funds. To respond to the original question, I have, when a pilgrim, asked myself the same question and generally concluded by finding myself with the same answer.

You probably can’t say or won’t say, and I understand that, and I hope it’s not rude to ask but do you or anyone have any thoughts or what an average ‘take’ would be for a night. I know it would vary of course but for say 10 beds with a ‘value’ of say ‘€22 per bed’ would you expect to exceed that on most ocassions?

 

[dick bird]

You probably can’t say or won’t say, and I understand that, and I hope it’s not rude to ask but do you or anyone have any thoughts or what an average ‘take’ would be for a night. I know it would vary of course but for say 10 beds with a ‘value’ of say ‘€22 per bed’ would you expect to exceed that on most ocassions?

Generally speaking, the hospi does not know how much goes into the donativo box. It is usually a representative of the parish or local community who comes and empties it.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I believe economists have a technical term for it: ´the tragedy of the commons´ (nothing to do with the house of). There are some who do, indeed, pay less than they should. If that is a reason for you or I to pay no more than the bare minimum, who suffers? The fact that some pay less (whether out of greed or need) is all the more reason for the rest of us to pay more so that the albergue can survive.

Yes I see that and you are right, there is clearly a bigger picture. I always pay my way. It’s for the greater good! I just see a lot of freeloaders, and I wish we didn’t make it so easy for them!!

 

[Albertagirl]

I have no idea. I put a fair bit of energy into not knowing. Just once, I saw a young man put one coin in the payment slot, then go across the road to a restaurant and buy an expensive breakfast. I am still working at not making that any of my business. I tell myself that he might have to walk on that meal for the day.

 

[Former member 104756]

I’m just not happy with the number of folks that leave very little, and can afford too, which seem to be a fair few!!

I understand your frustration. Many years ago a wise friend said to me ‘you can only take care of your side of the street’. It was in a very different context, but I’ve found wisdom in this saying in many aspects of life, especially when wishing the actions of others were different.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I have no idea. I put a fair bit of energy into not knowing. Just once, I saw a young man put one coin in the payment slot, then go across the road to a restaurant and buy an expensive dinner. I am still working at not making that any of my business. I tell myself that he might have to walk on that meal for the day.

Well done you! You are a far better person than me!!’

On any other forum I would probably say that a person should maybe take a broader look at life and earn some money and to contribute, rather than expect others to pick up the slack, (I would certainly say that to my children of they behaved that way) but I don’t think I can take the abuse today!!’

 

[TravellingMan22]

I understand your frustration. Many years ago a wise friend said to me ‘you can only take care of your side of the street’. It was in a very different context, but I’ve found wisdom in this saying in many aspects of life, especially when wishing the actions of others were different.

Yes 100% agree. Was on a day tour yesterday with someone I didn’t know. We agreed a fee of $1 each for a quick tour of something. She refused after agreeing to pay saying she couldn’t afford it. Well maybe she couldn’t, maybe the airfare had cleaned her out, or the DKNY shades. It’s tiny money,, I paid the full amount, and paid extra to compensate for her. I paid 3 times her amount. The money was irrelevant and tiny but it still riled me.

On the flip side I don’t like people paying for me. I grew up very poor but even then it wasn’t ‘the thing’.

If people can avoid paying, many do! There is a reason why Uber drivers get tipped a lot less than cab drivers!

 

[VNwalking]

I am a very generous person. Alway have been.
… but I get annoyed by people who can pay and won’t. Sure we have all been on the ‘free city tours’ that last a few hours and seen the couple with the designer clothes and the expensive camera offer up a few coins!

We see a lot on here about how little is often in the donativo box. So something is amiss. In my few stays many put virtually nothing in, many confessing to as little as €5. Maybe all these wonderful and humble pilgrims are not so wonderful after all! It strikes me as shocking given the demographic walking.

We are never going to agree

Oh, boy - actually on this we see completely eye to eye!

It is seriously bad karma to be able to offer but to decide to be selfish instead. But I don't think it's the donativo system per se that's amiss, but rather that there are a lot of people in the world who might pretend to be virtuous and generous but arent.

´the tragedy of the commons´

Thus came from a 1968 paper in Science by Gerrett Hardin, describing how (in his view) common use of a resource inevitably causes that resource to collapse. Hardin was a singularly flawed person, taking some completely valid points about overpopulation and limited resources into very dark places. And many of his conclusions were based on flawed assumptions and have since been resoundingly refuted.

So, taking that and saying donativo systems will never succeed because of the selfish amongst us is likely too pessimistic. Not to diminish the challenges, but the benefits to all outweigh them.

 

[JustJack]

On any other forum I would probably say that a person should maybe take a broader look at life and earn some money and to contribute, rather than expect others to pick up the slack,

Ha ha I made a similar comment on this forum and was called all sorts of nasty names . Hence my hesitation in posting this thread.

 

[Bradypus]

On the flip side I don’t like people paying for me. I grew up very poor but even then it wasn’t ‘the thing’.

That can be a tricky one. On my first Camino there were several occasions when my drink or my meal was 'on the house' or anonymously paid for by another customer. Also a couple of times when I was invited to join a family or group of friends at their table rather than eat alone then not be allowed to pay my share of the bill. I had to learn to accept the gift graciously. An even bigger issue when walking the Shikoku 88 temple circuit where the concept of making gifts in kind or in acts of service to pilgrims is deeply embedded - so much so that it has a name: ossetai. Culturally very important to accept the gift and acknowledge it properly. Initially a little embarrassing for someone determined to be independent and not reliant on others.

 

[Kirkie]

A good question, and so far, responses in line with your need to have a yes or a no. I believe @Pelerina's response about her recent volunteering with the explanation is a good guide. I will repeat what I said once before: a sign on the table in Bercianos caught my attention - what you give today puts food on the table for tomorrow's pilgrim. The sister responsible for that in Zabaldika, and if you pray, say one in gratitude for her, Tere, as she died recently, would always deal with it discreetly, and I certainly never knew what anyone put in the box.
I would add that it is not my business how someone else behaves. Again, @Pelerina offers some sound advice there, sweep your own path.
I have not left in half of what I composed, you will be happy to hear! So long as you can go to sleep with a clear conscience, you will walk freely, just like The Happy Wanderer.

 

[TravellingMan22]

That can be a tricky one. On my first Camino there were several occasions when my drink or my meal was 'on the house' or anonymously paid for by another customer. Also a couple of times when I was invited to join a family or group of friends at their table rather than eat alone then not be allowed to pay my share of the bill. I had to learn to accept the gift graciously. An even bigger issue when walking the Shikoku 88 temple circuit where the concept of making gifts in kind or in acts of service to pilgrims is deeply embedded - so much so that it has a name: ossetai. Culturally very important to accept the gift and acknowledge it properly. Initially a little embarrassing for someone determined to be independent and not reliant on others.

Yes totally agree. I can think of a few instances that has happened to me. An American couple who I sat with in the restaurant car on the train from Chicago to San Francisco. They left the table before me and when I paid my bill it looked low but they had picked up the wine! Samilarly in others parts of the world I have been invited to join a table a few times. They left before me and had paid my bill. Folks from USA and South America seem to do this a lot. It’s a nice feeling. I don’t think I saw any of them again which made it easier as I would have driven them mad saying thank you and looking to pay for stuff!

Culturally. Yes good point too! I lived in India for a while and struggled to accept some of the generosity offered, especially being invited into peoples homes. I grew up with a huge inferiority complex ( we lived in social housing flats and going into a proper house with a garden was always an massively scary thing) and never really felt worth of such fuss as I saw it!

One of my best friends is German and I visit him alot. If I arrive late he always calls me and asks if I want dinner. I always do, but always preface it with, ‘as long as it not too much trouble’ or sometimes even say no which he sees right through and makes it anyway. He thinks it just me ‘being British’ and polite but I do think it maybe ties into my ‘not worthy’ childhood issue!

 

[dreaming]

I stayed at two donativos last October on CF. This was not by choice. It was because there were no other albergues open. I met a delightful, friendly group of young people staying in donativos or camping along the CF and was quite happy not to take up a bed in a donativo and let them stay there. The hospitaleros were hard working. Both donativos didn't provide dinner. One provided breakfast .I asked another pilgrim how much they paid and the reply was 8 euro. I simply paid 10 euros. I was delighted to find lovely home owners further down the track providing donativo coffee, juice, water, snacks.

 

[Anhalter]

I think i gave 20€ in my only Donativo in 2022. And that was including dinner. At that time, i seen it as "just another basic albergue".
In the time since, having read and thought about it more, i got a better understanding... or maybe a different perspective.
To cut things short, next time (whenever that may be) it would very likely be double that.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I think i gave 20€ in my only Donativo in 2022. And that was including dinner. At that time, i seen it as "just another basic albergue".
In the time since, having read and thought about it more, i got a better understanding... or maybe a different perspective.
To cut things short, next time (whenever that may be) it would very likely be double that.

Yes I gave €25 or so, thinking it was quite generous based on hearing what other folks were saying but I would defo raise that to €35-40 so as long as the Vino Tinto was half decent!

It would be good to hear from folks on here who feel that can’t afford to pay. Not in an accusatory way, but just for balance! I appreciate it a ‘big ask’ but we only hear from folks on here who can afford to pay. I have only done 3 caminos, maybe 80 days of walking but have yet to see people who are struggling financially. I don’t doubt they exist of course, (and you can’t judge a book by its cover) and people who run albergues have said, but is there many? I know this forum is not entirely representative of the Camino but insight would be great! I still struggle to see a big demographic of folks struggling financially given the Camino demographic! Sorry!!

 

[davejsy]

Donativo's are you could say the very founders of the "pay it forward" movement, something we are now seeing more and more of in our modern-day lives away from the Camino.

Me, personally, I pay/donate more at a Donativo than I would at a set price Albergue if I can afford it - that is the nature and spirit of such places that are the essence of everything the Camino stands for.

 

[good_old_shoes]

If the Camino was full of folks from the world’s poor countries I would see it differently!

I've met quite a few pilgrims (from eastern European countries for example, but not only) who were on a very low budget. They still knew how to get along because they were used to getting by with little money. Always in the cheapest albergues even if it meant walking longer days, some even wild camping, cheap supermarket food, cold food when albergue had no kitchen, no pilgrim's menu of course.

These people do exist, even though you might not notice them.

I guess when you're on a low budget yourself, you tend to meet / notice them more?

They probably won't be in the fancy private albergues and not in the restaurants eating a 15€ pilgrims menu...

It would be good to hear from folks on here who feel that can’t afford to pay. Not in an accusatory way, but just for balance! I appreciate it a ‘big ask’ but we only hear from folks on here who can afford to pay. I have only done 3 caminos, maybe 80 days of walking but have yet to see people who are struggling financially

Poverty is highly stigmatized, so of course people try to hide it, and that's probably why you won't get many statements from those who struggle financially.

I've walked on a low budget and had days with only peanuts or bread and cheese as my main dinner. My budget was still much higher than that of some others I met!

I remember one day in the Ponferrada albergue, that was on my first Camino, I had cooked myself a simple dinner of pasta and chickpeas. Had made a bit more than I needed. The hospitaleros approached me and said, a very poor peregrina had just checked in and was very hungry, and if I'd share my meal with her, maybe? She was too embarrased to ask for herself and apparently couldn't even afford a meal. You wouldn't have known when you looked at her.

So, yes, there are people who can't afford to make a donation at all, and there are also many who can afford to make a small donation only. You won't know just by looking at them.

As Robo wrote:

That person who seems fine, and has a nice pack and shoes, we later may find has had a really tough life.
Has recently gone through hell and back.
Their gear is borrowed or from a charity shop.
And they were only able to walk a Camino with the support of family and friends.
And they have to be careful with every cent.

 

[J Willhaus]

The systems differ in each donativo. Some where we volunteer require that we handle the money and account for it daily. Others have a system where someone from the community comes and collects the money and others still have a kind of shared responsibility between community rep and volunteer. At some places we had to take donations to the bank ourselves and at others, a community representative did that.

At some donativos we had to collect and log every reciept for things purchased (groceries, cleaning supplies, etc). At others we were told that if something was needed we should just get it and don't worry about writing things down.

Interestingly at places were we didn't track expenses, we actually got more donations on average. These are very long standing donativos in good repair. People liked to stay there due to the ambiance and welcoming spirit so I am sure that contributes. We never watch how much is put in the box and if we have to count the money ourselves we don't speculate on how much any one person gives. We simply trust that it will all work out. We pray daily for the health and safety of our pilgrims and in places where we cook, I make sure they have tasty and nutritious food to sustain them. It doesn't have to be expensive as long as it tastes good. There is always enough and if it looks like it will be a stretch, Phil and I just take a bit less.

Only you have to be happy with your donation. You don't have to tell others what you gave or what they should give. Let your pocketbook and your heart be your guide. If you have little to give or you have a lot to give you will be treated equally with same love and respect.

Don't worry about the other person and how much or little they gave. Just worry about you.

 

[J Willhaus]

I said this on another thread, but there a sort of parallel universe on the Camino. There are the private albergues and hotels with ability to make reservations and there are pay for use services such as bag transport, buses, taxis, etc.

The other universe is still the traditional side where pilgrims with less means and for those of us who enjoy a simpler experience are making the journey. Donativos are often quite simple with perhaps only a mat on the floor although most where we volunteer have bunk beds. There may not be a washer or dryer for pilgrim use, but there is always a place to wash clothes and either a drying line or a drying rack. Pilgrims often prepare meals or eat food left behind by others the day before (so little is wasted) or from groceries purchased on a tight budget. There may be an organized communal meal or pilgrims may join together to create one.

Reservations and bag transport services are not accepted or possible. We often have no phone. There may not be wifi or it may be very limited. There is no tv. The bathrooms and showers may be limited. If you are looking for luxury and services you may not find it.

Usually there is a guitar and pilgrims can entertain themselves with singing or journaling or reading or chatting with each other. At some there will be an opportunity at attend pilgrim mass or a shared time of reflection (never mandatory). At all, you should feel the love and care of people who volunteer because they love the Camino and pilgrims.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I have only stayed at donativos a couple of times on my many Caminos, and purposely avoid them as I feel uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if I am generous, but rather that I am taking advantage of a system that has been set up and intended for those who struggle financially to make their way towards Santiago.

 

[montyhiker]

Just my two cents: I’ll be going on my first Camino this April. Even though money’s not an issue for me personally, I want to NOT think of my Journey as a vacation, but somewhat of a spiritual and sacrificial experience. I’m purposefully planning to stay in Albergues with what I would call a “humble heart” (although I will stay in a private room once in awhile for a change of pace). I’ve set a “mindset” to not spend more than 50€ per day and I hope that’s realistic. I can afford 3 times that per day, but I really want to think of this experience as something different than a vacation.
Again, just my two cents. Buen Camino!

 

[J Willhaus]

I just came back from the Camino with a group of college students. I budgeted 25 euros per day for meal and albergue and was able to buy breakfast supplies (hardboiled eggs, yogurt, rolls, oranges) and at least one hot meal a day either prepared together or eating in a restaurant). It can be done. Some days we spent more and others less.

Edit:Sarria to Santiago in winter so not a lot of options open to spend your money.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

In donativos, those who can afford to give more than what they consume or use are crucial as they will pay also to release some of the burden for those who are on a very tight budget or can hardly afford anything. Hence in donativos you do not pay for what you get, but you donate according to what you are willing to.

 

[davejsy]

I have only stayed at donativos a couple of times on my many Caminos, and purposely avoid them as I feel uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if I am generous, but rather that I am taking advantage of a system that has been set up and intended for those who struggle financially to make their way towards Santiago.

Yes, but, Donativo's rely on such amazing people like yourself to be able to then cater to those who cannot afford to be so generous.

 

[nilesite]

I’ve stayed in many donativos. And worked in them too. You should pay what you can, of course, but the closer it gets to 20€ the better.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Yes, but, Donativo's rely on such amazing people like yourself to be able to then cater to those who cannot afford to be so generous.

Interesting point you make, @davejsy. It's actually a bit of a conundrum then to me. If only financially needy persons stayed in the donativos, there would be no additional funds to provide the next day's communal dinner.
P.S. I am not an amazing person and assume you say it tongue in cheek.

 

[davejsy]

Interesting point you make, @davejsy. It's actually a bit of a conundrum then to me. If only financially needy persons stayed in the donativos, there would be no additional funds to provide the next day's communal dinner.
P.S. I am not an amazing person and assume you say it tongue in cheek.

Certainly nothing tongue in cheek, and I think your very reason for not staying in Donativos is evidence of that you are indeed a very nice person.

 

[J Willhaus]

Interesting point you make, @davejsy. It's actually a bit of a conundrum then. If only financiallyneedy persons stayed in the donativos, there would be no additional funds to provide the next day's communal dinner.

No, not all people who stay with us are financially needy. Of course some are on limited means, but most are just normal people with an average budget who were looking to have a more simple pilgrimage.

We have often had people show us photos of ourselves with groups of pilgrims from the day or two prior having fun eating or singing or whatever. We've had people say "we were told we must come meet the American hospitaleros", etc.

It isn't always about the cost, but sometimes simply about enjoying hospitality and a shared experience. If you've never enjoyed that on a Camino at a donativo, I am sad. Of course you can have that anywhere on the Camino, but we are trained specifically in hospitality for this volunteer service.

 

[TravellingMan22]

T

I've met quite a few pilgrims (from eastern European countries for example, but not only) who were on a very low budget. They still knew how to get along because they were used to getting by with little money. Always in the cheapest albergues even if it meant walking longer days, some even wild camping, cheap supermarket food, cold food when albergue had no kitchen, no pilgrim's menu of course.

These people do exist, even though you might not notice them.

I guess when you're on a low budget yourself, you tend to meet / notice them more?

They probably won't be in the fancy private albergues and not in the restaurants eating a 15€ pilgrims menu...



Poverty is highly stigmatized, so of course people try to hide it, and that's probably why you won't get many statements from those who struggle financially.

I've walked on a low budget and had days with only peanuts or bread and cheese as my main dinner. My budget was still much higher than that of some others I met!

I remember one day in the Ponferrada albergue, that was on my first Camino, I had cooked myself a simple dinner of pasta and chickpeas. Had made a bit more than I needed. The hospitaleros approached me and said, a very poor peregrina had just checked in and was very hungry, and if I'd share my meal with her, maybe? She was too embarrased to ask for herself and apparently couldn't even afford a meal. You wouldn't have known when you looked at her.

So, yes, there are people who can't afford to make a donation at all, and there are also many who can afford to make a small donation only. You won't know just by looking at them.

As Robo wrote:

I've met quite a few pilgrims (from eastern European countries for example, but not only) who were on a very low budget. They still knew how to get along because they were used to getting by with little money. Always in the cheapest albergues even if it meant walking longer days, some even wild camping, cheap supermarket food, cold food when albergue had no kitchen, no pilgrim's menu of course.

These people do exist, even though you might not notice them.

I guess when you're on a low budget yourself, you tend to meet / notice them more?

They probably won't be in the fancy private albergues and not in the restaurants eating a 15€ pilgrims menu...



Poverty is highly stigmatized, so of course people try to hide it, and that's probably why you won't get many statements from those who struggle financially.

I've walked on a low budget and had days with only peanuts or bread and cheese as my main dinner. My budget was still much higher than that of some others I met!

I remember one day in the Ponferrada albergue, that was on my first Camino, I had cooked myself a simple dinner of pasta and chickpeas. Had made a bit more than I needed. The hospitaleros approached me and said, a very poor peregrina had just checked in and was very hungry, and if I'd share my meal with her, maybe? She was too embarrased to ask for herself and apparently couldn't even afford a meal. You wouldn't have known when you looked at her.

So, yes, there are people who can't afford to make a donation at all, and there are also many who can afford to make a small donation only. You won't know just by looking at them.

As Robo wrote:

Thank you very much for this insight! I must admit I was starting to wonder if the ‘donativo model’ was still valid as I was wondering if there is still a significant number of folks walking that were struggling financially. You have reassured me there are. I am happy to put whatever in the box, but want to support those that need it as opposed to ‘freeloaders’ I appreciate you have shared to personal info too! Hope things are good for you.

Yes poverty is hugely stigmatised. I grew up in what I regarded to be quite poor surroundings in that we were in the bottom 5% in all social economic indicators. I was quite sensitive to it. Second hand clothes, jumble sales, no aspirations, etc. I was thin skinned. In my professional career I spent a significant amount of time in very poor places most notably South Africa and India. I learnt a lot about poverty, not just about the money side, but more the social consequences. So for example in South Africa, how it drove violence against women and alcohol consumption. I have quite a few stories that I was going to share, but I won’t as I am sure folks don’t want to hear it and are getting bored of me!! Also the thread is about ‘how much to donate’ so it’s a big tangent!

Thanks again!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

It isn't always about the cost, but sometimes simply about enjoying hospitality and a shared experience. If you've never enjoyed that on a Camino at a donativo, I am sad.

I have enjoyed numerous similar, shared experiences staying in non-donativo albergues on the Camino.

Probably my favorite and most vivid memory of staying at a donativo was on the Norte in Guemes at Father Ernesto's amazing (private) donativo albergue, although I realize the experience there is one-of-a-kind. I loved the facility and grounds, lovely communal meal, the "historic" photo album of his walks deep into the mountains to help the villages, and the testimony he shares to encourage generous giving. It does put some people "off", but not me.

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

If an equal amount is paid at Albergues and Donativos, I see no basis for verbal or ethical conflict. Because you find yourself in a Donativo, it is not an opportunity to pay as little as you can get away with.

 

[Sue127]

I have only stayed at donativos a couple of times on my many Caminos, and purposely avoid them as I feel uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if I am generous, but rather that I am taking advantage of a system that has been set up and intended for those who struggle financially to make their way towards Santiago.

Hi Chrissy. I sort of felt the same way to start with. I am by no means wealthy, and felt a built guilty splashing out for a 2** pension when I needed a break on my first Camino. I started my Portuguese Camino in a lovely donavito in Porto. There were still beds available when I went to sleep and I happily left a reasonable donation in the morning. I would argue that we shouldn't feel guilty for using the donavito, in the place of someone less well off, as without those of us who have the means to pay something, those beautiful places would not be available for those struggling on an even tighter budget.

 

[peregrina2000]

This is one of those topics that we keep chewing over, our opinions change, and we learn from each other.

A couple of older threads might be interesting for some of the newer members, and for some of us oldtimers, it’s interesting to see how our positions have evolved. Take a look here for a 2018 thread. Or here for an even older one.

I had some of the same hesitations and objections that have been voiced here, but am so grateful to people like Reb, Lee, Sybille, the Wilhauses and others, who have stuck with the drumbeat and helped me to realize that we are talking about something so very different than coming up with a fair price for services rendered.

In a world where every little hiccup we utter gets posted on social media, having this one private transaction between yourself and your spirit (maybe some would say conscience) is challenging yet so rewarding in the end.

 

[grayland]

I am a very generous person. Alway have been.
… but I get annoyed by people who can pay and won’t. Sure we have all been on the ‘free city tours’ that last a few hours and seen the couple with the designer clothes and the expensive camera offer up a few coins!

We see a lot on here about how little is often in the donativo box. So something is amiss. In my few stays many put virtually nothing in, many confessing to as little as €5. Maybe all these wonderful and humble pilgrims are not so wonderful after all! It strikes me as shocking given the demographic walking.

We are never going to agree and that’s fine but cutting to the chase, I just don’t accept that there are many people waling a Camino that cannot put €15-20 and pay their way. If the Camino was full of folks from the world’s poor countries I would see it differently!

This post (along with the many others by you) make it very obvious that you are very able to pay whatever amount and stay where ever it pleases you.

I am very confused why you would be staying in a donativo in any event unless it is the only available bed within reasonable walking distance.
You will be taking up a bed that a tight budget pilgrim will urgently need.

I never stay in donativos unless the volume of pilgrims is low or it is the only alternative. When busy I use pensions and leave the lower cost accommondation for others.

 

[Tincatinker]

Only you have to be happy with your donation.

Janet, that is a beautiful, concise and all-embracing summary of the Donativo ethic.

Nuff said. The rest of the thread is semi-redundant

 

[TravellingMan22]

This post (along with the many others by you) make it very obvious that you are very able to pay whatever amount and stay where ever it pleases you.

I am very confused why you would be staying in a donativo in any event unless it is the only available bed within reasonable walking distance.
You will be taking up a bed that a tight budget pilgrim will urgently need.

I never stay in donativos unless the volume of pilgrims is low or it is the only alternative. When busy I use pensions and leave the lower cost accommondation for others.

I am not sure why you think that. I have probably spent 2 nights in a donativo in about 80 camino nights, probably because there was no alternative. I have have never stayed in a private room on a Camino. I can’t afford it. I have no fixed abode, no car, no job, no access to credit, and no partner. Not great for the Tinder profile. I probably spend 250 nights a year in hostels, dorms in Europe, but maybe a private room in the cheaper parts of the world. I am currently in a nice private room for USD6 a night. I have a relatively small amount of money to manage. Please elaborate?

 

[Bradypus]

but rather that I am taking advantage of a system that has been set up and intended for those who struggle financially to make their way towards Santiago.

I think this is a misconception of the origin and purpose of the donativos. Places like Refugio Gaucelmo in Rabanal and the other long-lived donativos were not set up principally for the impoverished - they often filled major gaps in provision where there was no private alternative and were meant for all to use. It took quite some time before there were enough private albergues or hostals for that to be a reliable alternative in all places. In the case of Refugio Gaucelmo there were no private rooms or even a basic refugio between Astorga and Molinaseca before it opened.

 

[trecile]

I am very confused why you would be staying in a donativo in any event unless it is the only available bed within reasonable walking distance.
You will be taking up a bed that a tight budget pilgrim will urgently need.

I never stay in donativos unless the volume of pilgrims is low or it is the only alternative. When busy I use pensions and leave the lower cost accommondation for others

As several people have already written, the donativo albergues need the donations of more affluent pilgrims to allow them to serve those of lesser means. Perhaps you should consider staying in one to help their cash flow.
No one should be made to feel guilty about staying in donativos.

In donativos, those who can afford to give more than what they consume or use are crucial as they will pay also to release some of the burden for those who are on a very tight budget or can hardly afford anything. Hence in donativos you do not pay for what you get, but you donate according to what you are willing to.

. I would argue that we shouldn't feel guilty for using the donavito, in the place of someone less well off, as without those of us who have the means to pay something, those beautiful places would not be available for those struggling on an even tighter budget.

 

[peregrina2000]

I don’t agree with the idea that those who can afford to give a big donation should not stay in donativos. The whole point is that some will give more, to support those who can give less. Many of the most loved albergues on lots of caminos are donativos, and I have never heard anyone suggest that you shouldn’t stay at Bodenaya if you can afford to pay for a pensión in La Espina, or that you should go to the private options in Fuenterroble if you can afford it.

 

[hieudovan]

I agree with everything you said but for...


I get the sentiment.... but it's kinda like walking 800 km and getting the same Compostela as someone who walks 100 km. I had to reconcile myself to Matthew 20:1-16.

It probably doesn't work for everyone but, after several walks? Well, it works for me.

B

I prefer not to stay at donativos as I'd like to pay a reasonable fixed amount and not have to guess. My last Camino was a few years ago. Regarding the Compostela, I have no issues with the distances. In fact, sometimes I don't even get a Compostela after finishing a Camino. I walk for other reasons rather than a Compostela.

 

[David Tallan]

I am very confused why you would be staying in a donativo in any event unless it is the only available bed within reasonable walking distance.
You will be taking up a bed that a tight budget pilgrim will urgently need.

Of course, when one leaves donativos solely for those who cannot afford to leave a donation, that ensures that some donativos will not receive the funds they need to operate and will in future be available to no one. This also serves to more thoroughly segregate pilgrims by economic class every night.

There was a time, which I can remember, when this attitude was prevalent and all pilgrims who could afford to were encouraged to sleep in hotels. That is no longer the case. Many now see the "traditional pilgrim hospitality" as practiced in donativo albergues as something that should be available to all pilgrims. That was certainly something that was communicated last weekend in the hospitalero training I took to serve in donativo albergues. Many of us find the ambiente in donativos wonderful and the experience much preferrable to sleeping in a hotel room.

Personally, I like the idea of all sorts of pilgrims mixing in donativos, each giving according to their means, with the more financially well-off pilgrims offsetting and subsidizing the pilgrims less able to afford a donation. YMMV, of course, and you are free to sleep where you wish and avoid donativos as much as you like.

If I was hearing story after story of poor pilgrims being turned away from donativos, I might change my opinions, but I haven't been reading those stories.

 

[Xali1970]

I suppose I'm an outlier as I view this transactionally depending on what's on offer in the donativo, while understanding that I'm enjoying what was gifted by someone else and my gift will support someone tomorrow.
So... 15 to 20 for bed and shower
15 to 20 for a hot meal, along with me providing desert or wine for everyone within reason.
5 to 10 for breakfast
10 for laundry or access to washing machine/dryer
Add more if there's an honours fridge with drinks, alcoholic or not, and the number of drinks I consume.
I count and put a value on everything, it's a professional side effect. Sad, I know.

 

[trecile]

Personally, I like the idea of all sorts of pilgrims mixing in donativos, each giving according to their means, with the more financially well-off pilgrims offsetting and subsidizing the pilgrims less able to afford a donation. YMMV, of course, and you are free to sleep where you wish and avoid donativos as much as you like

And importantly, that all who stay there are treated equally, regardless of how how much they are able to contribute.

 

[Tincatinker]

I'm amazed, and depressed, by how often this thread has been led into the world of comparative value (what do I get for my hard-earned money) or worse still that inherited sense of entitlement that produces a cost/benefit calculation to every interaction: What do I get?

The question was "What do I give?" and the answer is whatever you can love, whatever you can.

 

[David Tallan]

I suppose I'm an outlier as I view this transactionally depending on what's on offer in the donativo, while understanding that I'm enjoying what was gifted by someone else and my gift will support someone tomorrow.
So... 15 to 20 for bed and shower
15 to 20 for a hot meal, along with me providing desert or wine for everyone within reason.
5 to 10 for breakfast
10 for laundry or access to washing machine/dryer
Add more if there's an honours fridge with drinks, alcoholic or not, and the number of drinks I consume.
I count and put a value on everything, it's a professional side effect. Sad, I know.

I must admit that I find that kind of approach hard to resist and, perhaps, something I use to set a minimum. But I am well aware of the downward spiral effect that this can have. So if the albergue likes to provide a meal but has a day or few days with really low donations and has to dispense with the meal or make it really skimpy, then that will be reflected in future donations of a transactional nature and the baseline and level of hospitality will be set to a lower level. And so on.

So I like to temper that by thinking not just "what did I receive" but also "what do I want tomorrow's pilgrims to receive" when deciding what to donate and let that, along with my available budget, set my donation, so long as I don't go below a minimum set by what I actually consumed.

 

[Paladina]

And importantly, that all who stay there are treated equally, regardless of how how much they are able to contribute.

The Camino is itself a great equaliser. At the end of the day, we are all grubby, sweaty, weary pilgrims. I certainly couldn’t estimate other people’s financial or social position and wouldn’t want to know if they have paid more or less than I have for the privilege of staying in a donativo.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

I'm amazed, and depressed, by how often this thread has been led into the world of comparative value (what do I get for my hard-earned money) or worse still that inherited sense of entitlement that produces a cost/benefit calculation to every interaction: What do I get?

The question was "What do I give?" and the answer is whatever you can love, whatever you can.

But then again, this is how the larger part of our world works, so it is naturally the very first reflex. Even in me who knows better.
So I guess no one can be blamed for that first idea. And therefore it is good we talk about it on here so people can re-think.

 

[J Willhaus]

Actually when you have a tasty satisfying meal and make pilgrims feel welcome, they almost always give a little more. I always cater to people's preferences and and that also helps. For example, if you have a lot of French and German pilgrims you need to have real butter with jam and/or honey and not just margarine or oil and tomato spread at breakfast. You should also try to have a little cheese for breakfast when you have a lot of French or German pilgrims. You don't have to put out a big platter, just a few slices on a plate that you can replentish if needed. Spanish pilgrims often just wolf down their dry toast and a cup of coffee and are on their way, but that isn't everyone's breakfast choice. If someone asks for hummus, I whip some up and it is always eaten up even by the non-vegans and vegetarians. Cola Cao on hand is another popular item and it doesn't cost that much to buy a big container of it. Making pilgrims feel special is what hospitality is about. It isn't about making them feel ashamed because they are on a tight or non-existent budget. It is about making the place feel as much like home for the short time they are there. It encourages other people to ask about volunteering when they have the experience of hospitality so there is a method to my madness.

When we started volunteering in 2017 we were told that 3 euros per person was the average donation. At Granon in 2018 we were told not to count the money as we would be discouraged... In Estella in 2019 our contact was thrilled that we were bringing in an average of 6 euros per pilgrim. This year in Arres we had an average donation of about 15 euros per person for a bed, breakfast, supper at an albergue with an awesome view in a quaint town. It all evens out. I am a thrifty shopper and a good cook and we were still able to take money to the bank for deposits even when cooking a bountiful meal and I always tell pilgrims that the bounty was made possible from the pilgrims who came before them... This is not everyone's experience, but it is mine.

 

[zacattack909]

I agree with everything you said but for...


I get the sentiment.... but it's kinda like walking 800 km and getting the same Compostela as someone who walks 100 km. I had to reconcile myself to Matthew 20:1-16.

It probably doesn't work for everyone but, after several walks? Well, it works for me.

B

I think the problem with good old Matthew in the modern world is that the next day, no-one would turn up to work for the landowner till 5. But I'm a cynic lol.

 

[BombayBill]

Last year on the Norte I was very dispirited by the solitary road walking and having to stay in impersonal pensions / small hotels. Outside of Salinas I stayed in the wonderful donativo Albergue de Peregrinos Martin de Laspra run by Rosa. I could have easily stayed in, and afforded, yet another hotel. The comradeship, reception and overall mood of fellow pilgrims was exactly what I needed.

So in my mind donativos exist not only for those who require affordable housing but also for the more affluent who require some repair to their Mojo. Just because you have a bigger budget doesn't mean you are not hurting.

 

[BombayBill]

Pre donativo, Mojo sadly lacking.




Post donativo, Mojo renewed.

 

[MARSKA]

I just came back from the Camino with a group of college students. I budgeted 25 euros per day for meal and albergue and was able to buy breakfast supplies (hardboiled eggs, yogurt, rolls, oranges) and at least one hot meal a day either prepared together or eating in a restaurant). It can be done. Some days we spent more and others less.

Edit:Sarria to Santiago in winter so not a lot of options open to spend your money.

That is amazing budgeting!!! 25 euros a day is excellent. Congratulations!

 

[MARSKA]

Rich or Poor? By what standards? Some can be financially needy but have rich, bountiful souls. Others may have all financial needs met but their hearts are completely impoverished.

As BombayBill said (post #71):
"So in my mind donativos exist not only for those who require affordable housing but also for the more affluent who require some repair to their Mojo. Just because you have a bigger budget doesn't mean you are not hurting."

I stayed at a donativo a few times. I found my poor heart, soul, and body were refreshed. Not sure I'd call it MOJO (to me that is pure energy) but .... something good for sure!

And giving blindly - to those nameless people who come after me - makes me happy.

 

[grayland]

SNIP....
There was a time, which I can remember, when this attitude was prevalent and all pilgrims who could afford to were encouraged to sleep in hotels. That is no longer the case. Many now see the "traditional pilgrim hospitality" as practiced in donativo albergues as something that should be available to all pilgrims. That was certainly something that was communicated last weekend in the hospitalero training I took to serve in donativo albergues. Many of us find the ambiente in donativos wonderful and the experience much preferrable to sleeping in a hotel room...

I disagree.... with the above and many other things posted in this thread.

You are, of course, free to offer your personal opinion. However, you appear to have allocated fact to the change of "prevalent attitude" based on something you were told in hospitalero training. I recall being told several things in the 2 hospitalero training sessions I have attended over the years. You are simply repeating the opinion of the trainers.
The pilgrims I interact with all seem to believe that when beds in donativo type albergues are full...it is common courtesy and humanity to leave them for more needful folks. This has not changed.
You can decide that "need of others " is topped by "traditional pilgrim hospitality" if you care to.
I do not....need is need.

Snip....
If I was hearing story after story of poor pilgrims being turned away from donativos, I might change my opinions, but I haven't been reading those stories.

I am surprised that the many posts here in the forum, during the spring and summer. about the bed races and the need to book ahead don't count toward "hearing story after story" about people being turned away. I personally have talked with many who simply cannot walk without the assistance of the donativo albergues.
I just can't understand how people would believe that somehow that has changed.

 

[Bogong]

Given all the inflation of the past couple years, do you (especially those with hospitalero experience) think that the following are reasonable amounts to leave when staying at a donativo on the VDLP?

- bed only, with no additional services: €10
- bed with breakfast: €15
- bed with dinner: €20

I really (really) don't want to get into a debate about donativos, I just want to know if leaving these amounts in 2024 would be seen as reasonable by the hospitalero working there. In particular when dinner is involved - is €10 a reasonable amount to include for dinner? That's less than what a pilgrim menu generally costs so perhaps it's too little.

I understand it's up to each person, and there are many variables. I didn't use any donativos last year, but I'm walking on more of a budget this year and hope to stay at a few (not just for budgetary reasons, I also just want to experience it).

Thanks for your yes/no thoughts.

When I walked in winter there were few pilgrims but several deliberately sought out the donativotos to avoit paying anything. I would always whack in a bit more than I would have been paying at a private albergue.

De colores

Bogong

 

[C clearly]

You can decide that "need of others " is topped by "traditional pilgrim hospitality" if you care to.

C'mon. You have chosen to interpret @David Tallan's thoughtful comments in an very unkind way, and throw them back. This approach to communication is not constructive.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Actually when you have a tasty satisfying meal and make pilgrims feel welcome, they almost always give a little more. I always cater to people's preferences and and that also helps. For example, if you have a lot of French and German pilgrims you need to have real butter with jam and/or honey and not just margarine or oil and tomato spread at breakfast. You should also try to have a little cheese for breakfast when you have a lot of French or German pilgrims. You don't have to put out a big platter, just a few slices on a plate that you can replentish if needed. Spanish pilgrims often just wolf down their dry toast and a cup of coffee and are on their way, but that isn't everyone's breakfast choice. If someone asks for hummus, I whip some up and it is always eaten up even by the non-vegans and vegetarians. Cola Cao on hand is another popular item and it doesn't cost that much to buy a big container of it. Making pilgrims feel special is what hospitality is about. It isn't about making them feel ashamed because they are on a tight or non-existent budget. It is about making the place feel as much like home for the short time they are there. It encourages other people to ask about volunteering when they have the experience of hospitality so there is a method to my madness.

When we started volunteering in 2017 we were told that 3 euros per person was the average donation. At Granon in 2018 we were told not to count the money as we would be discouraged... In Estella in 2019 our contact was thrilled that we were bringing in an average of 6 euros per pilgrim. This year in Arres we had an average donation of about 15 euros per person for a bed, breakfast, supper at an albergue with an awesome view in a quaint town. It all evens out. I am a thrifty shopper and a good cook and we were still able to take money to the bank for deposits even when cooking a bountiful meal and I always tell pilgrims that the bounty was made possible from the pilgrims who came before them... This is not everyone's experience, but it is mine.

Thanks for sharing. Gosh €3 per person. I find that quite staggering. Well done for persevering and thankfully driving bigger donations. It’s does feel astonishing low, especially if people such as those on here are always giving quite a lot more!

 

[J Willhaus]

Again, only my experience and I am not there all the time (and I have not worked at every albergue available to HosVol or FICS), but we are not always full. Only two days at one albergue in the busy time (summer) while I have been working was the albergue completo. Phil has worked one other without me and was only full one or two days (mid September). The rest of the times we have not been full. Do encourage people who want to stay with us to check. Reservations are not possible and I think this contributes to the worry that some people have that they won't find a bed.

 

[J Willhaus]

Thanks for sharing. Gosh €3 per person. I find that quite staggering. Well done for persevering and thankfully driving bigger donations. It’s does feel astonishing low, especially if people such as those on here are always giving quite a lot more!

Yes, keep in mind in that year albergues on the Meseta were charging only 4-6 Euros though.

And most pilgrims have never heard of Ivar's forum unless they are English speakers.

 

[VNwalking]

I always tell pilgrims that the bounty was made possible from the pilgrims who came before them

If more people understood this, there would probably be much more going into the donativo box.

And this, absolutely this:

And giving blindly - to those nameless people who come after me - makes me happy.

It is such a joyful thing to do, being generous without an agenda or strings attached! Our culture doesn't teach us this, and we think happiness comes from getting and having stuff instead. We've got it backwards

 

[David Tallan]

I disagree.... with the above and many other things posted in this thread.

You are, of course, free to offer your personal opinion. However, you appear to have allocated fact to the change of "prevalent attitude" based on something you were told in hospitalero training. I recall being told several things in the 2 hospitalero training sessions I have attended over the years. You are simply repeating the opinion of the trainers.
The pilgrims I interact with all seem to believe that when beds in donativo type albergues are full...it is common courtesy and humanity to leave them for more needful folks. This has not changed.
You can decide that "need of others " is topped by "traditional pilgrim hospitality" if you care to.
I do not....need is need.

I am surprised that the many posts here in the forum, during the spring and summer. about the bed races and the need to book ahead don't count toward "hearing story after story" about people being turned away. I personally have talked with many who simply cannot walk without the assistance of the donativo albergues.
I just can't understand how people would believe that somehow that has changed.

My opinions are not based only what I heard in training. What I heard in training is relevant as to the prevalent attitude among those actually running donativo albergues. If you have a better source I am open, of course, to hearing it. In terms of the prevalent attitudes among pilgrims, I am basing it on the attitudes expressed in these forums, in which I spend a fair amount of time, and on the Camino itself, as experienced in over seven weeks walking on a variety of routes last year. But feel free to dismiss it if you prefer to.

We have certainly read a lot about spring bed races and people having difficulty finding beds. I think if you look a little more carefully at the threads with the complaints you'll find they were primarily coming from pilgrims booking ahead who were informed when calling to make reservations that all beds were taken. At the same time we were hearing from folks in albergues that didn't take reservations that they had empty beds. The fact that places taking reservations were turning people away, or that beds were hard to find between SJPP and Pamplona, isn't much evidence of donativos turning people away. I don't think any of the donativos I stayed in during my Caminos this summer filled up, so I'm not sure how you can accuse me of taking beds from those who need them, but feel free to continue with the accusations if it makes you feel better.

I notice that you didn't respond to the issue of sustainability that I (and others) raised. You want the donativos to be used exclusively by those who can't afford anything else. Which, in essence, means people who can't afford 10 euros a night. I don't think they are all receiving enough funding to be sustainable by those few pilgrims who have nothing to give (and will thus give nothing). I believe they are mostly relying on some donations to be sustainable in the long run. Of course, once again, I'm open to any evidence you have to the contrary.

I don't deny that some cannot walk without the assistance of donativo albergues. I never have. That is precisely why I want them to continue. And with some pilgrims with means in them to supplement the small or nonexistent donations from those lacking means, they might continue. But what you propose won't leave more donativo beds. It will result in less, as donativos close or stop being donativos because the model becomes unsustainable.

 

[TravellingMan22]

My opinions are not based only what I heard in training. What I heard in training is relevant as to the prevalent attitude among those actually running donativo albergues. If you have a better source I am open, of course, to hearing it. In terms of the prevalent attitudes among pilgrims, I am basing it on the attitudes expressed in these forums, in which I spend a fair amount of time, and on the Camino itself, as experienced in over seven weeks walking on a variety of routes last year. But feel free to dismiss it if you prefer to.

We have certainly read a lot about spring bed races and people having difficulty finding beds. I think if you look a little more carefully at the threads with the complaints you'll find they were primarily coming from pilgrims booking ahead who were informed when calling to make reservations that all beds were taken. At the same time we were hearing from folks in albergues that didn't take reservations that they had empty beds. The fact that places taking reservations were turning people away, or that beds were hard to find between SJPP and Pamplona, isn't much evidence of donativos turning people away. I don't think any of the donativos I stayed in during my Caminos this summer filled up, so I'm not sure how you can accuse me of taking beds from those who need them, but feel free to continue with the accusations if it makes you feel better.

I notice that you didn't respond to the issue of sustainability that I (and others) raised. You want the donativos to be used exclusively by those who can't afford anything else. Which, in essence, means people who can't afford 10 euros a night. I don't think they are all receiving enough funding to be sustainable by those few pilgrims who have nothing to give (and will thus give nothing). I believe they are mostly relying on some donations to be sustainable in the long run. Of course, once again, I'm open to any evidence you have to the contrary.

I don't deny that some cannot walk without the assistance of donativo albergues. I never have. That is precisely why I want them to continue. And with some pilgrims with means in them to supplement the small or nonexistent donations from those lacking means, they might continue. But what you propose won't leave more donativo beds. It will result in less, as donativos close or stop being donativos because the model becomes unsustainable.

I must admit I didn’t think @grayland point …. ‘need of others " is topped by "traditional pilgrim hospitality’….is totally without merit, and I think it is worthy of thought and discussion. That said I agree with David’s view that that it a broader discussion not least for the ongoing offering of a donativo.

All that said it is interesting (to me at least) if folks would give up their ‘traditional pilgrim experience’ that they enjoy, and is fundamental to them, to those who maybe are just looking for a bed! It’s a big ask I know it’s a big part to many of walking the Camino for many. Putting extra in the tin is admirable and relatively easy. Forgoing something you hold dear is another level! Anyone done it? Or refused too? Obviously not everyone as would not be financially practical.

I don’t know what I would do tbh, although I am probably not as ‘wedded’ to the donativo experience as some might be. Also I am European so there are always more opportunities to walks Camino than those that are spending a lot of money and coming from a long way away.

 

[David Tallan]

I must admit I didn’t think @grayland point …. ‘need of others " is topped by "traditional pilgrim hospitality’….is totally without merit, and I think it is worthy of thought and discussion. That said I agree with David’s view that that it a broader discussion not least for the ongoing offering of a donativo.

All that said it is interesting (to me at least) if folks would give up their ‘traditional pilgrim experience’ that they enjoy, and is fundamental to them, to those who maybe are just looking for a bed! It’s a big ask I know as it’s a big part to many of walking the Camino for many. Putting extra in the tin is admirable and relatively easy. Forgoing something you hold dear is another level! Anyone done it?

I don’t know what I would do tbh, although I am probably not as ‘wedded’ to the donativo experience as some might be. Also I am European so there are always more opportunities to walks Camino than those that are spending a lot of money and coming from a long way away.

My first pilgrimage, there really was a shortage of albergues or refugios, and I didn't stay at them, leaving them for those that needed them. So I know what I would do in that situation. Fortunately, the situation has changed in the decades since.

 

[J Willhaus]

I have seen a woman give up her bed to an elderly female although not at a donativo. The older woman was clearly exhausted and was going to have to walk backwards down from Orrison to one of their other buildings and then back for supper. A younger woman from Argentina offered to trade bunks. Very selfless.

I don't know if that is what you mean @TravellingMan22 ? When someone can't find a bed, we do everything in our power to help find them one.

 

[C clearly]

All that said it is interesting (to me at least) if folks would give up their ‘traditional pilgrim experience’ that they enjoy, and is fundamental to them, to those who maybe are just looking for a bed! It’s a big ask I know it’s a big part to many of walking the Camino for many. Putting extra in the tin is admirable and relatively easy. Forgoing something you hold dear is another level! Anyone done it? Or refused too? Obviously not everyone as would not be financially practical.

I don't understand your questions. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the needs of others should be "topped" by their personal wish to enjoy "traditional pilgrim experience" at a donativo. But it seems counterproductive to shame affluent pilgrims into staying away even when there are beds available.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I have seen a woman give up her bed to an elderly female although not at a donativo. The older woman was clearly exhausted and was going to have to walk backwards down from Orrison to one of their other buildings and then back for supper. A younger woman from Argentina offered to trade bunks. Very selfless.

I don't know if that is what you mean @TravellingMan22 ? When someone can't find a bed, we do everything in our power to help find them one.

Thank you! Yes good to hear the responses from you and David! Yes that is what I meant. Basically how many folks would give up something they value for someone they don’t know in crude terms, or how many have been in that position. I appreciate that if you are managing an establishment you will do all possible to make it work!

 

[TravellingMan22]

I don't understand your questions. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the needs of others should be "topped" by their personal wish to enjoy "traditional pilgrim experience" at a donativo. But if seems counterproductive to shame affluent pilgrims into staying away even when there are beds available.

Not looking to shame anyone or get people to stay away when there is capacity. Just wondering what folks would do when they may need to ‘step aside’ to help someone they don’t know who is clearly in need.

For example a stranger gave up a nice airline seat to me once so I could sit with my daughters and they moved to my ‘not so nice’ seat. I was grateful and not sure if I would have down the same. Hopefully I would.

It not an aggressive question just interested in how things some play out!

 

[J Willhaus]

Yes, it is sad we don't see more altruism, but it is there when you look for it. People are careful not to embarrass others. I've quietly paid for a young mom's groceries when it was clear she didn't have enough; baby crying on her arms with a cart of diapers and formula.

Phil's purchased and shared meals with homeless men in a fast food restaurant where they weren't welcome so they would be allowed to eat their meals in peace.

We've worked in shelters and Phil specifically with mentally ill veterans in helping them find work. We believe in these people and appreciate that they are valuable human beings that others might dismiss or turn away.

Working in a donativo and staying there as pilgrims is a gift for us. We are not "giving" as much as we are receiving a gift by serving others or paying back. Some of you may not understand this, but imagine how happy you feel when you give a gift to another person that they really treasure. That is what the donativo is about. People ask what they can do to help and the desire to share in the gift is infectious. Someone is sweeping and another is chopping vegetables and still another who is feeling ill is resting while a complete stranger is collecting his dry clothes from the line.

If you only think of what a bed costs in dollars or you only share meals at a bar or restaurant, you may never experience this quiet joy in the parallel Camino. It isn't for everyone, but it is for me.

 

[happymarkos]

Given all the inflation of the past couple years, do you (especially those with hospitalero experience) think that the following are reasonable amounts to leave when staying at a donativo on the VDLP?

- bed only, with no additional services: €10
- bed with breakfast: €15
- bed with dinner: €20

I really (really) don't want to get into a debate about donativos, I just want to know if leaving these amounts in 2024 would be seen as reasonable by the hospitalero working there. In particular when dinner is involved - is €10 a reasonable amount to include for dinner? That's less than what a pilgrim menu generally costs so perhaps it's too little.

I understand it's up to each person, and there are many variables. I didn't use any donativos last year, but I'm walking on more of a budget this year and hope to stay at a few (not just for budgetary reasons, I also just want to experience it).

Thanks for your yes/no thoughts.

I recall staying in one on the VDLP and asking the person looking after it what the average donation was. He shocked me when he said many leave nothing.
They provided bed and dinner and a light breakfast.
He said the average was about €5.
To me that’s not in the spirit of the Camino.
Others will think differently
Happymark

 

[TravellingMan22]

Yes, it is sad we don't see more altruism, but it is there when you look for it. People are careful not to embarrass others. I've quietly paid for a young mom's groceries when it was clear she didn't have enough; baby crying on her arms with a cart of diapers and formula.

Phil's purchased and shared meals with homeless men in a fast food restaurant where they weren't welcome so they would be allowed to eat their meals in peace.

We've worked in shelters and Phil specifically with mentally ill veterans in helping them find work. We believe in these people and appreciate that they are valuable human beings that others might dismiss or turn away.

Working in a donativo and staying there as pilgrims is a gift for us. We are not "giving" as much as we are receiving a gift by serving others or paying back. Some of you may not understand this, but imagine how happy you feel when you give a gift to another person that they really treasure. That is what the donativo is about. People ask what they can do to help and the desire to share in the gift is infectious. Someone is sweeping and another is chopping vegetables and still another who is feeling ill is resting while a complete stranger is collecting his dry clothes from the line.

If you only think of what a bed costs in dollars or you only share meals at a bar or restaurant, you may never experience this quiet joy in the parallel Camino. It isn't for everyone, but it is for me.

Thank you! Your stories are a great ‘pick me
Up’ after reading some of the posts about donation levels!!

 

[Phil W]

I don't post often on the forum, but this is a topic near and dear to me. With @J Willhaus, I volunteer in donativo albergues. What some don't realize is that public donativos must survive on the donations they receive. It's how they keep the lights on, the water running, heat, and make repairs. Yes, they may be parochial, municipal, or affiliated with an association but they are to be self-supporting. The church, municipality, or association does not financially support once the albergue become operational. Thus, it is important that those who can afford to give a little more chose to stay in them. I encourage you to try donativos out.

I have witnessed those with less funding walking the camino. I have talked with some who haven't had a meal in a couple of days. I met and shared a meal with some who actually were well off financially but chose to stay with me in a donativo. I have seen the interaction between those well off, those in the middle, and those less well off. It has been so rewarding to see, nobody cared how much money anyone else had. I've seen the pilgrim with the boot/shoe with duct tape they obtained from a hospitalero holding the sole of their boot on. I've seen the young man walking the camino without a real backpack but using the "bolsa" (plastic grocery bag) obtained either at the grocery store for 10 cents or given to him and a string bag to carry the rest of his kit in. Both were accepted by the other pilgrims at the albergue. I've seen those who live on the camino as it is all they can afford (one was a woman from Germany whose total income at the time was about couple of hundred euros a month). I don't care nor watch what a pilgrim leaves in the donation box. I chose not to watch. All are treated the same.

Is there a bed race to donativos? Maybe sometimes. In 2019, during my service as a hospitalero we were full a couple of times but were able to help the pilgrims find a bed in a nearby albergue. In 2021 during the reduced occupancy due to covid, I was full a time or two. During that same time period, the owners of the nearby private albergue came to me to check on bed availability as they were full and had an additional peregrina arrive. I was able to provide a bed. My experience over the years is that where I have served, the donativos are normally not full. So the decision to not stay in one to take a bed from a less affluent pilgrim really doesn't stand up for when and where I have served.

I've served in several donativos and do that because it's what I like. I now stay in donativos when possible because I want them to be successful. If my donation will help that, wonderful.

It's important to me that the donativo concept continue. It's such as satisfying experience to stay there and to have the privilege of serving as a hospitalero in one.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I don't post often on the forum, but this is a topic near and dear to me. With @J Willhaus, I volunteer in donativo albergues. What some don't realize is that public donativos must survive on the donations they receive. It's how they keep the lights on, the water running, heat, and make repairs. Yes, they may be parochial, municipal, or affiliated with an association but they are to be self-supporting. The church, municipality, or association does not financially support once the albergue become operational. Thus, it is important that those who can afford to give a little more chose to stay in them. I encourage you to try donativos out.

I have witnessed those with less funding walking the camino. I have talked with some who haven't had a meal in a couple of days. I met and shared a meal with some who actually were well off financially but chose to stay with me in a donativo. I have seen the interaction between those well off, those in the middle, and those less well off. It has been so rewarding to see, nobody cared how much money anyone else had. I've seen the pilgrim with the boot/shoe with duct tape they obtained from a hospitalero holding the sole of their boot on. I've seen the young man walking the camino without a real backpack but using the "bolsa" (plastic grocery bag) obtained either at the grocery store for 10 cents or given to him and a string bag to carry the rest of his kit in. Both were accepted by the other pilgrims at the albergue. I've seen those who live on the camino as it is all they can afford (one was a woman from Germany whose total income at the time was about couple of hundred euros a month). I don't care nor watch what a pilgrim leaves in the donation box. I chose not to watch. All are treated the same.

Is there a bed race to donativos? Maybe sometimes. In 2019, during my service as a hospitalero we were full a couple of times but were able to help the pilgrims find a bed in a nearby albergue. In 2021 during the reduced occupancy due to covid, I was full a time or two. During that same time period, the owners of the nearby private albergue came to me to check on bed availability as they were full and had an additional peregrina arrive. I was able to provide a bed. My experience over the years is that where I have served, the donativos are normally not full. So the decision to not stay in one to take a bed from a less affluent pilgrim really doesn't stand up for when and where I have served.

I've served in several donativos and do that because it's what I like. I now stay in donativos when possible because I want them to be successful. If my donation will help that, wonderful.

It's important to me that the donativo concept continue. It's such as satisfying experience to stay there and to have the privilege of serving as a hospitalero in one.

Thank you! Great insight!

 

[Richard Smith]

I have enjoyed this thread, especially the comments about how my donation is a secret just for me to be happy about and also that it is not related to the value I receive at the donativo.
I will think on this, thank you all.

 

[Kirkie]

@JustJack , I hope your head is not birling with all the replies to your simple question!
The thread has included further questions regarding who should use donativos. Even since the days when they were rather more primitive in infrastructure, they were always intended for pilgrims. The only reason I did not use donativo or municipal on the Ingles was simply availability of albergues for a slowcoach.
I do hope nobody feels excluded from walking in to a donativo in the hope of finding a bed.

 

[dick bird]

I do hope nobody feels excluded from walking in to a donativo in the hope of finding a bed.

Absolutely. Nobody is excluded from a donativo (unless it is private). That is one of, if not the main principle under which they operate.

 

[markie6]

Threads like this often come down to " you do your camino and don't worry about what others do on their camino"

I do understand the varying points of view but as hard as it is.. you just got to stop worrying about what others pay or don't

 

[VNwalking]

These notices at the Beasain donativo on the Vasco were obviously there as an attempt to educate people.


The joy of being generous is not part of that education - that only comes from experience.

And cycling back to the OP's question, generosity depends on means. It's not an absolute. So 5€ could be proportionately more generous than 105€. And no-one is looking; only you know.

 

[Rita Flower]

Hi @JustJack
Back to the Via - in 2022 I stayed in Municipal and donativo albergues as much as I could for the hospitality and 'Camino Spirit' and to support them as best I could.
There is no 'bed race' (I really don't like that term) on the Via so you won't rob a more needy pilgrim of somewhere to sleep. While I am not poor, I do need to walk on a budget. I generally left what was the going rate at the private albergues in that area. Everything is a bit cheaper in the south so your donations might increase as you head north.
I don't remember too many donativos on the Via - but between them and the municipal albergues you should be able to stay within a reasonable budget and still leave an appropriate donation.
PS - I am very grateful for the more affluent pilgims who can donate above and beyond the "market rate" - my heart felt thanks to you.

 

[dick bird]

I am very grateful for the more affluent pilgims who can donate above and beyond the "market rate" - my heart felt thanks to you.

A valid point. Donativos are rarely full and they don't exist solely for pilgrims on a tight budget. On the contrary, if you can afford it, you will be doing the donativo a favour by staying there and making a generous contribution.

 

[dick bird]

You will be taking up a bed that a tight budget pilgrim will urgently need.

Donativos are rarely full and they don´t exist solely for pilgrims on a tight budget. On the contrary, if you can afford it, you will be doing the donativo a favour by staying there and making a generous contribution.

I have recopied the reply I made just now to underline the point that you are not taking away a bed if you stay at a donativo. Stay, and donate. It will help to keep the donativos alive, and the spirit of the camino alive.
Additional edited note: donativos, as part of their role, provide shelter etc to pilgrims on a tight budget. Donativos have to pay their bills. They pay their bills out of the money pilgrims leave in the donativo box. They therefore rely on the more well-heeled among us to stay and leave generous donations. Suggesting that if you are well provided you shouldn´t stay in a donativo is unhelpful.