- Time of past OR future Camino
- Frances\Finisterre 22 Frances 26 del Norte 27
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Greetings all!Why not? It's as cheap to make so an increased price is likely due to tax. If there is no extra tax on the beer then the cost should reflect the production cost.
What an excellent question, I have no idea! I've always thought of wine costing far more than water - Spain maybe the exception to the ruleGreetings all!
I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?
Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?
Everybody else at the table was drinking wine.
I would always take the water with me. They are not going to give someone else an opened bottle of water. It will probably just go to waste if you leave it.Greetings all!
I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?
Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?
Everybody else at the table was drinking wine.
As I am prone to the odd blister or two (hence I now routinely wear sandals) I'm in the market for some miraculous feet.As if the authors want applause for having achieved some miraculous feat beyond mere mortals like their readers....
I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?
Greetings all!
I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?
Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?
Everybody else at the table was drinking wine.
I do try and always respond in a reasonable manner to everybody but your clinging to this unreasonable theme and the rubbish contained in your responses is unbelievable!If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.
-Paul
Your are being silly and smug, and either digging in your heels or making a joke. I have been to Europe at least 20 times and I don't know what clear answer there would be.If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.
-Paul
I can tell you what I did as a Camino pilgrim: I either asked or said that I would take the bottle with water left in it to my room (when I had a private room) or I filled the water into my own container (when I had my backpack with me). If my own container was full and if the water was served in a glass bottle, I would just leave it (too heavy to carry); if in a plastic bottle I might have taken it - I simply don’t remember.Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?
oooh, ouch!If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.
-Paul
I would think that this stubborn clinging to the very much strange notion that Paul tries to convince us of would be hilariously funny if it wasn't so persistently annoyzing.If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.
-Paul
Just for anyone who isn't familiar with Europe, there is no "European dining etiquette". Every country is different.If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.
-Paul
Indeed! You will need a lots of practice trips. I reckon at least 100 per country to cover all the different regions within a country… how about the upscale versus the lower scale, the restaurants owned by folks from other countries.Just for anyone who isn't familiar with Europe, there is no "European dining etiquette". Every country is different.
If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.
-Paul
What? No waffles?Well, I can tell you about our subjective take on etiquette in this small corner of this part of Europe.
If you would tell these ideas in my local pub the reactions could be the following:
1. A derisive snort.
2. A blank stare.
3. Full laughter. And offering you a drink if you just would stop talking gibberish.
Not again! I think everyone learns basic table manners as a child, which is all anyone expects. I can learn any big differences in about five minutes, which leaves plenty of time for thinking about anything else I want to think about. Funnily enough, it doesn't include listening to or reading a lecture by someone who considers foreign travel either unusual or difficult. I won't ask if you have travelled elsewhere, as I don't wish to encourage you.If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.
-Paul
What? No waffles?
It depends:Unopened bottles? Full open bottles? Half full open bottles?
The comment you quote was made ages ago. All the bottles of pilgrim's menu wine have been emptied in the meantime. Whether by the pilgrim or the staff of the bar or restaurant is not known.It depends:
- if you are pessimistic, half empty open bottles.
- if you are optimistic, half full open bottles.
Reminds me of waffle and piffle in English (BE).Believe it or not but gewaffel in our dialect means gewauwel or talking nonsense.
If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.
-Paul
And in some countries you may be brought a bottle of water when you sit down without asking for it. If you drink the water you will pay for it. If you choose not to drink it you don't pay for it.What a long thread about the "price(s)/price range for lunches on the Sarria to Santiago de Compostela route". I hope the prices did not increase in the meantime.
@Molly Cassidy and @Opiemoore make actually a valid point: Not only is there no such thing as "the proper European dinning etiquette", there is also no "proper European tipping etiquette" and there is not even a "proper European water on the table etiquette".
My European dining experience may not be as vast as @pjacobi 's but what do we know. He has not shared what the pilgrim must do with the water left after having consumed a pilgrim's menu. I've dined in restaurants in plus/minus 20 European countries - this must be the first time in my life that I felt compelled to count them. Spain is unique among them: It is the only country where I noticed that it is common to include "water or wine" in a set menu that does not cost a lot. No prior European travel experience will prepare you for this.
There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where a jug of tap water is put on your table, whether you asked for it or not. There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where you must order and pay for a bottle of mineral water if you want water with your meal and you can chose the volume, ranging from "a small bottle" to 500 ml or 1 l. Oh, and there are Europeans on a European travel experience who whine endlessly about the fact that they have to pay when they want to have water with their meal in a European restaurant because that's not what they are used to in their European home country. Or who complain about their fellow Europeans because they habitually order bottled water with their restaurant meal when tap water would be good enough for everybody as everybody knows.
We are such a diverse lot.
Seems we've been served a lot of that lately, albeit with "the proper European dinning etiquette"Believe it or not but gewaffel in our dialect means gewauwel or talking nonsense.
You could ask. I am 100% sure they’ll say yes. I wouldn’t try it on with the wine though.Greetings all!
I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?
Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?
Everybody else at the table was drinking wine.
There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where a jug of tap water is put on your table, whether you asked for it or not. There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where you must order and pay for a bottle of mineral water if you want water with your meal and you can chose the volume, ranging from "a small bottle" to 500 ml or 1 l. Oh, and there are Europeans on a European travel experience who whine endlessly about the fact that they have to pay when they want to have water with their meal in a European restaurant because that's not what they are used to in their European home country. Or who complain about their fellow Europeans because they habitually order bottled water with their restaurant meal when tap water would be good enough
If you're in Portugal they will bring you bread, but it's not free! Eat one piece and you will be charged. Same with olives and other things they may bring to the table before the meal.Well we've talked long enough about the water and the wine ( but not yet water into wine), probably time to talk about the bread.....
In France this is also mandatory.I have a question about this. I have read that by law, Spanish restaurants must serve you (free) tap water if requested. What are the rules in other European countries? I really don't like having to buy bottled water.
Not sure about this in Greece. Usually they will bring tap water if you ask. Some places will bring tap water (or spring water) by default. Some islands have no fresh water, so bottled water is the only option.I have a question about this. I have read that by law, Spanish restaurants must serve you (free) tap water if requested. What are the rules in other European countries? I really don't like having to buy bottled water.
I usually go for the red wine, but have had white included with the menú.What intrigues me is that red wine is included, but if you have white wine with a menú, they charge for it.
I checked online for Germany. Below is the link to one of many similar articles. Restaurants are not obliged by law to serve free tap water if requested. In general, they are also reluctant to do so when a guest asks for it. Some restaurants (the article mentions restaurants owned by celebrity chefs and by an actor) have started to charge for tap water - and at a relatively high price like 4 € for one litre. On average, one litre of tap water as such costs apparently 0,20 € in Germany. The article mentions that French law obliges restaurants to serve tap water for free.I have a question about this. I have read that by law, Spanish restaurants must serve you (free) tap water if requested. What are the rules in other European countries? I really don't like having to buy bottled water.
Not true if you order a menu do dia. It will always include the couvert which is bread, olives, and sometimes butter. If you order a la carte, the couvert, covering the same, will likely be billed at a euro or two, on top of the cost of your other choices.I have a question about this. I have read that by law, Spanish restaurants must serve you (free) tap water if requested. What are the rules in other European countries? I really don't like having to buy bottled water.
If you're in Portugal they will bring you bread, but it's not free! Eat one piece and you will be charged. Same with olives and other things they may bring to the table before the meal.
Bottled water or wine are the only "proper" beverages to be consumed with a meal in countries such as Spain, France and Italy. Even the beer drinking Germans mostly drink wine with dinner. Many Europeans prefer sparking water so that why the water must be bottled. Each country has their own customs but there are many similarities.
Order a Diet Coke with your meal in a French restaurant and the waiter will have a heart attack!
-Paul
In Portugal, tap water is not commonly drunk at meals away from home. I get the feeling the sentiment is, if you can afford to eat in a restaurant, you're affluent enough to pay for bottled water (though I'm inferring this just from the fact that noone ever offers it as a choice, and eating in a restaurant is definitely considered a bit of a luxury--and of course, if you're a tourist--including being a peregrino--you're by definition, better off that the person working in the restaurant. This may not be true, but from their perspective, it almost certainly is!)Au contraire, mon ami. This means : on the contrary, my friend.
A soda/ coke as your main beverage is perfectly ok in all those countries you mention.
It might be different in a top resto , genre Michelin, but then you go for the total experience with foodpairing.
Simpler places and brasseries : totally ok with soda!
Living in Belgium myself which is culinary perfectly balanced between Germany and France! And I have enough knowledge of different restos in all the neighbouring countries.
Just texted an Italian friend and she confirmed that ordering a coke or limonade in a trattoria is perfectly ok.
Afterall some people do not drink alcohol by choice and do want other options than water.
Btw , when I order water in a resto here it is always still and in a sealed bottle.
I would not recommend doing the Camino on your first trip to Europe. You have so much to learn about European travel and culture that this will only distract from your Camino experience.
Q
I suggest taking one or more training trips, starting in the UK where there is little language barrier, then move on to the continent. Between trips, you can train at home with a backpack and learn to walk long distances. All this training will result in a much better Camino experience.
As an analogy, Calculus is much more difficult to understand if you don't have a solid background in the mathematical prerequisites.
-Paul
Oh dear I had to start it didn't I! I thought that we were all familiar with this hence my jocular reference. It was supposed to be a pun, sorry!you're in Portugal they will bring you bread, but it's not free! Eat one piece and you will be no charged. Same with olives and other things they may bring to the table before the meal.
On the handful of occasions I had a pilgrims menu I always got white wine if I asked for it at no additional charge. Served in a carafe or an unmarked bottle.If it is a menú, bottled water is a choice of drink so not charged extra. Otherwise you can ask for ‘agua de grifa’ - tap water. What intrigues me is that red wine is included, but if you have white wine with a menú, they charge for it.
I prefer it in my coffee!Cointreau with dinner? Afterwards I understand but with?
I'm a little puzzled about this practice. After the appetizers are taken away, what do the restaurants do with that food? Do they throw away? Serve to another table? In the US, the health codes suggest that once the food is put on a table, that food cannot go to another table for a different customer.In tourist-type restaurants, they will often put a platter of fish pates, sometimes cheese, sometimes other appetizers, on the table at the start. If you eat them, you will be charged. If at the beginning of the meal, you make it clear youre not interested in them, they will take them away and not charge you.
It will just be put to one side and served to the next client. The regulations are very, very different.I'm a little puzzled about this practice. After the appetizers are taken away, what do the restaurants do with that food? Do they throw away? Serve to another table? In the US, the health codes suggest that once the food is put on a table, that food cannot go to another table for a different customer.
I agreeBut to leave some for the bar or restaurant so that they can serve it to the next guest seems an absurd idea to me.
call me au Barbarian! I admittedly can drink cognac with my dinner and have no problem. Probably would give a French waiter a heart attack faster than asking for Diet Coke and technically going against not only the European dinner etiquette but Polar Penguins as well but heck - its MY CAMINO!Cointreau with dinner? Afterwards I understand but with?
Sorry, wrong again. The French drink what they want and waiters don't have heart attacks if your choice is unusual. Either bottled or tap water is normal and wine is of course another option. You really don't know much about France, less than I do, but then I've only lived here for thirty five years.Bottled water or wine are the only "proper" beverages to be consumed with a meal in countries such as Spain, France and Italy. Even the beer drinking Germans mostly drink wine with dinner. Many Europeans prefer sparking water so that why the water must be bottled. Each country has their own customs but there are many similarities.
Order a Diet Coke with your meal in a French restaurant and the waiter will have a heart attack!
-Paul
The fish pastes and butter are always packaged (plastic or tiny tins). If you open them, they're yours. But if still sealed, they can definitely be redirected.I'm a little puzzled about this practice. After the appetizers are taken away, what do the restaurants do with that food? Do they throw away? Serve to another table? In the US, the health codes suggest that once the food is put on a table, that food cannot go to another table for a different customer.
Peanutsed. Olives are so ubiquitous in bars, cafes, and restaurants--I can't think what would be the North American equivalent--ketchup, maybe?
Perhaps @pjacobi needs a few more practice and research trips to Europe, never mind before attempting a Camino, but before proclaiming proper European customs.Au contraire, mon ami. This means : on the contrary, my friend.
A soda/ coke as your main beverage is perfectly ok in all those countries you mention.
It might be different in a top resto , genre Michelin, but then you go for the total experience with foodpairing.
Simpler places and brasseries : totally ok with soda!
Living in Belgium myself which is culinary perfectly balanced between Germany and France! And I have enough knowledge of different restos in all the neighbouring countries.
Just texted an Italian friend and she confirmed that ordering a coke or lemonade in a trattoria is perfectly ok.
Afterall some people do not drink alcohol by choice and do want other options than water.
Btw , when I order water in a resto here it is always still and in a sealed bottle.
By "proper," I assume you are talking about the stereotype of fancy restaurants that cultivate a tradition of snobbery and specific behaviour according to arbitrary and dated rules. You aren't talking about places where real European families eat. I cannot imagine that dining in the fancy places will provide any knowledge or insight that can readily be transferred to the Camino pilgrim experience.Bottled water or wine are the only "proper" beverages to be consumed with a meal in countries such as Spain, France and Italy.
Paul,I would not recommend doing the Camino on your first trip to Europe. You have so much to learn about European travel and culture that this will only distract from your Camino experience.
Indeed, making the whole world believe that, apart from water, our french overrated wines are the only allowed beverage, is a good thing. Our wine growers need to sell their bottles...By "proper," I assume you are talking about the stereotype of fancy restaurants that cultivate a tradition of snobbery and specific behaviour according to arbitrary and dated rules. You aren't talking about places where real European families eat. I cannot imagine that dining in the fancy places will provide any knowledge or insight that can readily be transferred to the Camino pilgrim experience.
In France it used to be not acceptable to drink anything before finishing the soup. My grandmother said in this case: "you will see clearly in your grave !"He sniffed with dismay and said something like "not with the soup." Whose behaviour was proper?
I'd forgotten about this! Decades ago I had a French girlfriend and we visited her family for Christmas.However, please do not be shocked if you see a peasant like me finishing its soup with a bit of wine poured in the bowl or the plate (when it remains warm): it is a country custom named ""chabrau (or "chabrol", "godaille" in some places...).
[wine] not with the soup
Thank you for this! I had not been aware of either! This makes interesting reading about table manners in Europe unlike @pjacobi's post #135 - a post that is nearly irresistible to not comment on because one wants to protest these generalising claims that just do not correspond to the everyday experience of those who have lived in European countries all their lives or at least for many years.finishing [...] soup with a bit of wine poured in the bowl or the plate
Duolingo tried to put a course together, but after many months of effort, realised that there were just TOO many differences.I have only been there once. Way back in another century. If I go back again I think I might take a language course in preparation. Would six months be long enough? Do Duolingo have a course in American for Brits?
And can you think of any differences between AE and BE that might be relevant in the context of the thread topic, i.e. originally the price of lunches on the Camino but now expanded to table manners in selected European countries? The majority of Europeans including Spaniards who know English will have been taught BE at school and if they come from a large country like Spain, France or Germany they will not have heard AE in movies because they are dubbed.They decided that the the old saying that ' America and England are two nations, separated by a common language' was more accurate than they initially though
The schoolchildren I was teaching in Spain certainly picked up American English from somewhere. Possibly netflix or similar, but there were also a lot of children from Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas.And can you think of any differences between AE and BE that might be relevant in the context of lunches on the Camino? The majority of Europeans including Spaniards who know English will have been taught BE at school and if they come from a large country like Spain, France or Germany they will not have heard AE in movies because they are dubbed.
The only thing that I can think of is not to ask in a bar or restaurant where the bathroom is ... it is a question that really puzzles Europeans. Better yet, just say "Aseos?". One of the ten or so useful words to know in Spanish. And yet another thing that you don't learn on one of Paul's Highly Recommended Pre-Camino Preparation Trips to Europe.
Of course! You are right. Who goes to the movies or watches a movie on the TV these days? It is Netflix and other streaming platforms. Sigh. My age is showing ...The schoolchildren I was teaching in Spain certainly picked up American English from somewhere. Possibly netflix or similar,
And a reminder for those who learn Spanish on Duolingo to be able to order their drink in a Camino bar or restaurant: They will have taught you to say jugo de naranja but in Spain they say zumo de naranja.Duolingo
It's certainly still current in Poitou Charentes. We call it godaille and usually mop it up with bread. I have heard that it's acceptable to drink a dry sherry with a consommé but that was a long time ago in a country far away. I'll drink wine with anything except chocolate, and I might even make an exception to that if there is a decent loupiac available. In any case, on Camino I'll drink whatever is available and preferably sit between two non drinkers. Not that I would be trying to get more than my fair share, perish the thought...Indeed, making the whole world believe that, apart from water, our french overrated wines are the only allowed beverage, is a good thing. Our wine growers need to sell their bottles...
In France it used to be not acceptable to drink anything before finishing the soup. My grandmother said in this case: "you will see clearly in your grave !"
However, please do not be shocked if you see a peasant like me finishing its soup with a bit of wine poured in the bowl or the plate (when it remains warm): it is a country custom named "chabrau" (or "chabrol", "godaille" in some places...).
And if you plan to visit the USA, be sure to spend some time in Mexico and Canada first to accustom yourself to their funny North American ways.I would not recommend doing the Camino on your first trip to Europe. You have so much to learn about European travel and culture that this will only distract from your Camino experience.
I suggest taking one or more training trips, starting in the UK where there is little language barrier, then move on to the continent. Between trips, you can train at home with a backpack and learn to walk long distances. All this training will result in a much better Camino experience.
As an analogy, Calculus is much more difficult to understand if you don't have a solid background in the mathematical prerequisites.
-Paul
What an encouraging message - thank you, SabsP. I'm thrilled to be travelling to the other side of the pond in three weeks and I have no doubt that everyone will be most hospitable. Cheers.Message to all transatlantic forummembers : you are safe here in Europe! You are safe with us.
Most of us know one or two other languages. Police and civil servants are in general very friendly and helpful.
When you are exhausted after a 25k " hike ", pubs and restaurants will serve you good food and drink. You do not even have to tip if you do not want to.
When the ATM eats up you card we will help you out if needed.
There is more chance an electric step hits you than that someone puts a gun to your face.
More free traveladvise by simple request.
Chill!
Victoria - It's inspiring that you're on your fourth Camino. I have a feeling that after my first Camino I'll be well and truly hooked on the Way. Buen Camino.My very first Camino (2014) AND trip to Europe were also one and the same, I loved both so much that this year is my forth Camino, and I never went home! Still enjoying the awesome experience of both!
I think all of this misses the essential point that @pjacobi was making: that some preparation and knowledge gathering, some on the ground experience, can make a Camino a better experience. My moderate experience shows this to be true. There is valuable experience in Europe that has resulted in significantly improved Caminos for me: more enjoyable with less pain and confusion
The essential point is perhaps this: When reading @pjacobi's advice, does any newcomer actually believe that they must first travel to Europe once or several times to gain experience with travelling in Europe before they travel to Spain for their Camino and do they even consider following this advice? Or do we get worked up about this unusual advice for nothing and rebut it for nothing because newcomers will simply continue to pursue their plan to travel to Spain soon and go on Camino soon - whether they have travelled to Europe before or not.all of this misses the essential point that @pjacobi was making
I enjoy your enthusiasm but keep in mind that you WILL be surrounded by "other humans". Just in a very slight chance that you are not aware - they are quite unpredictable. So, be mindfulWhat an encouraging message - thank you, SabsP. I'm thrilled to be travelling to the other side of the pond in three weeks and I have no doubt that everyone will be most hospitable. Cheers.
Some folks here probably lost count of how many times they walked "their 4th Camino". I know someone who did 13 and most likely will try to squeeze in 2 more this season....Victoria - It's inspiring that you're on your fourth Camino. I have a feeling that after my first Camino I'll be well and truly hooked on the Way. Buen Camino.
What an encouraging message - thank you, SabsP. I'm thrilled to be travelling to the other side of the pond in three weeks and I have no doubt that everyone will be most hospitable. Cheers.
I'll be sure to be mindful. I appreciate the advice.I enjoy your enthusiasm but keep in mind that you WILL be surrounded by "other humans". Just in a very slight chance that you are not aware - they are quite unpredictable. So, be mindful
Some folks here probably lost count of how many times they walked "their 4th Camino". I know someone who did 13 and most likely will try to squeeze in 2 more this season....
and yes you absolutely will be hooked! Buen Camino!
Hi Alexander.
Not exactly on point, but… depending on how many time zones you’re crossing on the way to Europe, I’ve found that the first few days are kinda blurry because of jet lag. Roughly 12 hour difference from where I start, so I’ve learned to fly into a place that I’d like to see, a little bit, and just kinda mosey around for two or three days adjusting to the time zone, THEN launch off into whatever the main focus is. Makes the memories sharper, if time permits.
Buen Camino!
Many people find gratuitous advice tiring.Since everyone has a different response to jet-lag, it is helpful to use experience from a previous trip to better prepare for jet-lag. Many people underestimate the effects of jet-lag on their first experience, sleep at the wrong time and further prolong the jet-lag.
-Paul
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