Please help me identify this old carving

[tigermike]

Hi everyone.

I have recently come across this very old oak carving of what I believe to be St James, aka Santiago.
And am particularly intrigued by the scallop shell and crossed daggers (?) on his cloak.
Is this an ancient pilgrim emblem ?
Does this possibly date back to the Middle Ages when of course pilgrims needed to protect themselves from attack ?
The paradox I'm struggling with here is the artistic rendition of a Christian Saint so openly displaying potentially lethal weapons...?
Maybe in centuries passed this was acceptable, maybe even the norm..
But any assistance in helping me understand this old masterpiece would be very welcome.
Thanks !

 

[wisepilgrim]

I cannot identify the piece, but saints and weapons is hardly a surprise. And certianly not for a saint whose second coming earned him the moniker moor-slayer.

 

[Bradypus]

According to the New Testament James was killed with a sword on the orders of Herod. Martyr saints are often shown with the instrument of their death. And as @wisepilgrim points out the long Spanish history of portraying Santiago as Matamoros ("Moor Slayer") adds a second possible layer of meaning. If you are finding it difficult to process the image which you posted then you might well find the Matamoros iconography and legend troublesome. In recent years many churches have quietly removed their Matamoros sculptures and paintings - including the Santiago cathedral.

 

[Tincatinker]

Hi everyone.

I have recently come across this very old oak carving of what I believe to be St James, aka Santiago.
And am particularly intrigued by the scallop shell and crossed daggers (?) on his cloak.
Is this an ancient pilgrim emblem ?
Does this possibly date back to the Middle Ages when of course pilgrims needed to protect themselves from attack ?
The paradox I'm struggling with here is the artistic rendition of a Christian Saint so openly displaying potentially lethal weapons...?
Maybe in centuries passed this was acceptable, maybe even the norm..
But any assistance in helping me understand this old masterpiece would be very welcome.
Thanks !

Not a lot of armed pilgrims even in the days of old. The odd Bishop or King may have traveled with an armed escort most trusted to fortune and maybe a stout staff.
As @Bradypus has suggested a little searching for the legend of Santiago Mata-moros may bring enlightenment
If you think it odd that a Christian icon might be associated with the more belligerent aspects of human behaviour try searching the Templars

 

[tigermike]

I cannot identify the piece, but saints and weapons is hardly a surprise. And certianly not for a saint whose second coming earned him the moniker moor-slayer.

You have a good point and I have seen depictions of "Matamoros" clad in armour astride his warrior horse, but this sculpture looks altogether more beneficent, in his simple pilgrim cloak, except for that emblem !
It certainly doesn't appear to be a depiction of real daggers, merely some sort of 'badge'...
As such it detracts from the benign serenity of his pose and suggests a nuanced malevolence...?

 

[Hiawatha]

Jeanne de'Arc ( patron saint of France ) is almost always depicted carrying a sword .

 

[tigermike]

Not a lot of armed pilgrims even in the days of old. The odd Bishop or King may have traveled with an armed escort most trusted to fortune and maybe a stout staff.
As @Bradypus has suggested a little searching for the legend of Santiago Mata-moros may bring enlightenment
If you think it odd that a Christian icon might be associated with the more belligerent aspects of human behaviour try searching the Templars

Sure, the Knights Templar had quite a reputation but they were Knights, warriors, after all.
My understanding of their role in Camino terms was one of protection, helping to guard the sometimes not inconsiderable wealth that pilgrims often carried on their collective way to Santiago....

 

[tigermike]

Jeanne de'Arc ( patron saint of France ) is almost always depicted carrying a sword .

Yes, I get that, but this looks to me like some sort of badge - rather like the insignia worn by Special Forces these days. For me its the badge that does the talking, I don't need to see a gun or, for that matter, a sword - the inference is unmistakeable ....

 

[tigermike]

Put another way...
How would we, as 21st century pilgrims, be perceived if we had crossed daggers behind the scallop on our backpacks...?

 

[Tincatinker]

Put another way...

How would we, as 21st century pilgrims, be perceived if we had crossed daggers behind the scallop on our backpacks...?

Well, I always carry an Opinel…
I’m intrigued enough to ask where you encountered this carving. With the background/ context obscured it is impossible to guess and context is everything in history. The carver’s idiomatic is outside our era

 

[Bradypus]

I don't need to see a gun or, for that matter, a sword - the inference is unmistakeable ...

I think that you are mistaken in your interpretation of the image here. The swords are not intended to convey the 'nuanced malevolence' that you wrote in an earlier post. In the "peregrino" aspect of the saint the swords are a reference to his death as a Christian martyr and therefore his claim to sainthood. He is the victim of the sword here - not the one who wields it. Quite different from the military triumphalism of the Matamoros imagery.

 

[tigermike]

According to the New Testament James was killed with a sword on the orders of Herod. Martyr saints are often shown with the instrument of their death

Another good point, thank you. If this sculpture is indeed St James (rather than a generic pilgrim) then the daggers, or swords, make sense - albeit with a pinch of artistic license and symmetry !

 

[tigermike]

I think that you are mistaken in your interpretation of the image here. The swords are not intended to convey the 'nuanced malevolence' that you wrote in an earlier post. In the "peregrino" aspect of the saint the swords are a reference to his death as a Christian martyr and therefore his claim to sainthood. He is the victim of the sword here - not the one who wields it. Quite different from the military triumphalism of the Matamoros imagery.

Yes, I think you may be correct, see my post above....

 

[tigermike]

I’m intrigued enough to ask where you encountered this carving.

I'm thinking about buying it and thus needed help in understanding what I perceived to be a troublesome emblem of aggression. Seems I've been looking at it sideways - the correct interpretation should be the instrument of his own destruction (and subsequent martyrdom), not a manifestation of violent intent.
As ever, I am both humbled and grateful for the wisdom on this forum. Thank you all.

 

[SioCamino]

Might this emblem be related to the Order of Santiago? The most common emblem of the order would be the Santiago Cross that we are probably all familiar with but i think they also used the shell as an emblem. The presentation of the swords to me would suggest an "escudo" (coat of arms, emblem).

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

What may be seen as swords could be a representation of pilgrim staffs; the hand grips are missing the cross pieces I'm used to seeing. If they are staffs they would be shown in a shortened form to fit within the badge. Also, it seems odd to me that if they were swords that both grips are not pictured at the top of the badge.

Two websites mentioning staffs:

Pilgrims and Heraldry | The Heraldry Society

www.theheraldrysociety.com

About - St James Cathedral

Welcome to St. James Cathedral. Thank you for visiting our website. We hope that you find here a sense of the varied ministries of this majestic Cathedral. In the heart of Toronto, St. James provides a holy space and welcome to those who come to pray; who come to find quiet in a busy...

stjamescathedral.ca

 

[henrythedog]

Probably not ‘daggers’ but stylised ‘palmers’ or pilgrims’ staves. Not necessarily St James - or indeed a saint of any description; but quite possibly a pilgrim and certainly with a St James association.

To appear in sculpture or painting pre-Caravaggio et al it was usual to be a biblical or classical figure or very rich indeed. I appreciate that’s not immensely helpful.

See here:

Pilgrims and Heraldry | The Heraldry Society

www.theheraldrysociety.com

 

[henrythedog]

Probably not ‘daggers’ but stylised ‘palmers’ or pilgrims’ staves. Not necessarily St James - or indeed a saint of any description; but quite possibly a pilgrim and certainly with a St James association.

To appear in sculpture of painting pre-Caravaggio et al it was usual to be a biblical or classical figure or very rich indeed. I appreciate that’s not immensely helpful.

See here:

Pilgrims and Heraldry | The Heraldry Society

www.theheraldrysociety.com

Well that’ll teach me to not bugger around with the punctuation.

Just read what Rick said; mine duplicates.

 

[Kathor1]

And am particularly intrigued by the scallop shell and crossed daggers (?) on his cloak.

They are not daggers. They are miniature pilgrim staves. They are quite common pilgrim badges in art for denoting a pilgrim. Both the shell and the crossed staves can stand for a pilgrim to or from Santiago or any pilgrim to anywhere. I don't know the proper name for this pilgrim badge in English. I've seen Pilgerstäbchen (German). Two examples:

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Well that’ll teach me to bugger around with the punctuation.

Just read what Rick said; mine duplicates.

You were so close. I've come in second with the same information within minutes a few times. While typing slowly on the phone with a clumsy finger I see that a new post has come in but instead of reading it and risk losing ten minutes of typing per sentence I keep going only to discover that I've wasted even more time.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Two examples:

Off topic but are the badges on the hats of the pilgrims depicting the image of Christ on Saint Veronica's veil?

 

[tigermike]

To appear in sculpture or painting pre-Caravaggio et al it was usual to be a biblical or classical figure or very rich indeed. I appreciate that’s not immensely helpful.

Sure its helpful, thank you. The suggestion is that this carving is possibly French 17thC, say 1650, so post Caravaggio.
French, Italian, Spanish, even English ??
I guess there must be clues in the style - if only I could read them ....

 

[Camino Chrissy]

You were so close. I've come in second with the same information within minutes a few times. While typing slowly on the phone with a clumsy finger I see that a new post has come in but instead of reading it and risk losing ten minutes of typing per sentence I keep going only to discover that I've wasted even more time.

This has also happened to me, more than just a few times; it's definitely a bit annoying.

 

[Kathor1]

I can't help with dating the bust or evaluating its style but as to pilgrim badges and emblems, here's a photo of a real pilgrim hat and coat, dated from around 1571 when the owner, Stephan III. Praun, a member of a rich family from Nuremberg and a diplomat, travelled on horseback from Madrid to Santiago. The items show the same motif as on the sculpture.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I'm not sure if you were also asking about the age of the piece, but it is very modern in its features, not at all like the flat and elongated figures of the Middle Ages and gothic styles (it's been a long time since I studied these things in high school art history, so some of subtleties escape me). But the style is much more Renaissance to my eye, and potentially more modern than that even if the iconography is embedded in ancient tropes.

 

[tigermike]

I can't help with dating the bust or evaluating its style but as to pilgrim badges and emblems, here's a photo of a real pilgrim hat and coat, dated from around 1571

Thank you so much for this, a great find and certainly a great help in my research. Its beginning to look like the carving has its influence from the mid to late 1500's although could have actually been made a century later. Do you think there is a possibility that it might be German ?

 

[tigermike]

I'm not sure if you were also asking about the age of the piece,

Yes, I am very interested to hear people's ideas as to both age and country of origin. I was told that it is 17th century French (ie made sometime in the 1600's) but it could be earlier, and it might not be French !
Its quite tall, 65cms, and heavy and supposed to be Saint James.
Its pilgrim symbology is very apparent but I still don't understand its original purpose - was it an altar piece perhaps, or some sort of icon around which pilgrims might gather...?

 

[dick bird]

Hi everyone.

I have recently come across this very old oak carving of what I believe to be St James, aka Santiago.
And am particularly intrigued by the scallop shell and crossed daggers (?) on his cloak.
Is this an ancient pilgrim emblem ?
Does this possibly date back to the Middle Ages when of course pilgrims needed to protect themselves from attack ?
The paradox I'm struggling with here is the artistic rendition of a Christian Saint so openly displaying potentially lethal weapons...?
Maybe in centuries passed this was acceptable, maybe even the norm..
But any assistance in helping me understand this old masterpiece would be very welcome.
Thanks !

Are you sure those are swords? They look more like walking sticks to me - rounded points, narrow handles. The statue could actually be of a pilgrim rather than St. James. Where was it? The context would help identify it. The style looks 16th century but that is a wild and uneducated guess.

 

[Kathor1]

Its beginning to look like the carving has its influence from the mid to late 1500's although could have actually been made a century later. Do you think there is a possibility that it might be German ?

I am a total layperson when it comes to art history. @Perambulating Griffin has given you an excellent reply. He appears to be much more of an art expert than the rest of us together .

Intuitively, I would have said that the bust is definitely not medieval but for me it could be anything created between 1650 and 1850. Again, intuitively, I'd say that it had a merely decorative function, perhaps in a Baroque church interior or a monastery, perhaps even a library. The wavy long hair lets me think that it might meant to be Saint James and not a generic pilgrim but without further context it is hard to say. The collar strikes me as somehow modern.

I googled a bit. I'll post some screenshots in my next comment. The statue of St. Bartholomew with its striking similarity turned up in a Google reverse image search, the two busts of Saint James turned up in a Google text search and illustrate where such busts could be found.

 

[Kathor1]

The statue of St. Bartholomew with its striking similarity turned up in a Google reverse image search, the two busts of Saint James turned up in a Google text search

Just to provide some ideas for potential leads and to illustrate the difference in style throughout the centuries a bit; it won't help to find the artist or workshop who created the OP's sculpture. BTW, 65 cm is indeed quite tall.

The first photo shows the upper part of a tall French statue of Saint Bartholomew that was hand-carved from oak in the 1700’s (from the website of an art dealer - more detailed description there).

The second photo is described as a sculptoric detail of the medallion of Saint James the Great with pilgrim attributes, Spain, Galicia, Montederramo. Monastery of Santa Maria. Medieval building which was rebuilt at the end of the 16th century in the Herrerian style. Renaissance cloister.

And the last photo, also showing Saint James, was taken of the main door to the Saint Stephen's Basilica [built after 1850], decorated with bronze carvings depicting the heads of the Twelve Apostles, in Budapest.

 

[DirtAmy]

Hiya @tigermike you're thinking of buying it? As a semi-unsolicited opinion, I think you should buy it if you like the look of it and not because it might have antiquity.
If I came across it in a British context, I would probably consider it to date from the Arts & Crafts movement of the mid C19th to early C20th. That's because I see no damage and also because I see no repolishing/rewaxing even though the outer is in good condition. The quality of the wood used, the medieval reference, and the artisan nature would fit with that style. It's composed of a few pieces of wood and is quite a study in carving luscious hair so, if I were getting imaginative, I might say it were the final work of an apprentice.
I'm probably completely wrong but I'd suggest buying it with no hope that it might have antiquity (and you can always be surprised later when getting it properly evaluated!).

 

[Audax]

17th or early 18th century, possibly from a Baroque choir stall. A beautiful piece.

 

[tigermike]

17th or early 18th century, possibly from a Baroque choir stall. A beautiful piece.

Thank you kind Sir. Would you take a stab at country of origin ???

 

[tigermike]

That's because I see no damage

Hi
If you look closely you'll notice that his nose has been broken and the tip replaced, same goes for a portion of his forehead - both areas have been poorly coloured in. Maybe at some time he toppled forwards and crashed face down onto a hard stone floor - poor fellow !
Also there is a section of his moustache that is missing - no big deal for me - all part of the object's history.
This style and quality of oak carving predates the Arts & Crafts movement I believe. Pugin's work, by way of period-specific example, is of course outstanding but has a much more sophisticated feel about it. This piece is more crude and with no indication of any machine tools. The rear is all adzed, a basic flattening technique and although still used today by exponents like Robert Thompson in Kilburn, N Yorks, (formerly of 'mouseman' fame) their furniture range is hugely expensive. The consensus that is slowly building on this forum is that the piece is at least 200 years old and could be double that !

 

[tigermike]

The collar strikes me as somehow modern.

Hi
Interesting you also noticed the collar, and I was also interested to see the use of a piece of horn (?) as a toggle to fasten the cloak at the neck rather than a button for example. I appreciate that 'Duffle Coats, for example, have traditionally used horn for decades - but they must have got the idea from somewhere !
Did you also notice the similarity in the collars of both the Bartholomew statue that you very kindly posted and 'my' carving....?

 

[Gerard Murdoch]

Hi everyone.

I have recently come across this very old oak carving of what I believe to be St James, aka Santiago.
And am particularly intrigued by the scallop shell and crossed daggers (?) on his cloak.
Is this an ancient pilgrim emblem ?
Does this possibly date back to the Middle Ages when of course pilgrims needed to protect themselves from attack ?
The paradox I'm struggling with here is the artistic rendition of a Christian Saint so openly displaying potentially lethal weapons...?
Maybe in centuries passed this was acceptable, maybe even the norm..
But any assistance in helping me understand this old masterpiece would be very welcome.
Thanks !

I would agree that it's St James. I found this post on an auction site which may give you some information.
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/...62d2?queryId=bb09d4f9ce59a36e384b711707d8d47c

 

[Anamiri]

Hi
Interesting you also noticed the collar, and I was also interested to see the use of a piece of horn (?) as a toggle to fasten the cloak at the neck rather than a button for example. I appreciate that 'Duffle Coats, for example, have traditionally used horn for decades - but they must have got the idea from somewhere !
Did you also notice the similarity in the collars of both the Bartholomew statue that you very kindly posted and 'my' carving....?

Curious to know did you decide to purchase it?

 

[tigermike]

Curious to know did you decide to purchase it?

Yes ! I would really like to buy it

 

[Kathor1]

I still don't understand its original purpose - was it an altar piece perhaps, or some sort of icon around which pilgrims might gather...?

The Plantin-Moretus museum in Antwerp (Belgium) has a collection of busts of the 12 apostles and other saints. Origin and purpose are unknown. Below is a photo of one of these busts, the museum's description (translated) and the measurements. It seems likely that the bust that you are interested in has a similar background.

• 1650 - 1699
• Lime wood bust. Serge Landuyt assumes that the busts of the 12 apostles and saints in the collection of the Museum Plantin-Moretus were originally part of the wall decoration of an ensemble of choir stalls or originate from an abbey library. He attributes them to an Antwerp workshop from the second half of the seventeenth century.
• height: 63 cm
  width: 50 cm
  depth: 28 cm

 

[henrythedog]

Hi
Interesting you also noticed the collar, and I was also interested to see the use of a piece of horn (?) as a toggle to fasten the cloak at the neck rather than a button for example. I appreciate that 'Duffle Coats, for example, have traditionally used horn for decades - but they must have got the idea from somewhere !
Did you also notice the similarity in the collars of both the Bartholomew statue that you very kindly posted and 'my' carving....?

The toggle-fastener on the cloak may be useful in dating. Old art (I’m actually thinking renaissance paintings but think the principle’s valid) often depicted historic or biblical scenes in clothing contemporary with the painter.

Of course artworks can be faked, tribute or revival which discounts my theory totally; but perhaps your carving is from a period when a cloak would have been fastened with a toggle. I know nothing about cloaks (paging @JabbaPapa) perhaps they’ve always looked like that?

 

[tigermike]

It seems likely that the bust that you are interested in has a similar background.

That is really, really interesting, thank you for this. The type of wood here, lime (aka Linden) was also the most popular choice of the carvers of those wonderful Black Forest (Brienz, Switzerland and NOT Bavaria) bears and other animals in the late 1800's. Its a very light, soft wood and easy to carve. Oak on the other hand is dense, heavy and much more difficult to carve. Interesting also is the size of the Plantin-Moretus carving; at 63cms it is just 2cms shorter ergo more or less the same !
Choir stalls.....?
Abbey of Monastery library.....?
Either would make perfect sense in terms of original placing and/or purpose.

 

[tigermike]

I know nothing about cloaks

Not me either I'm afraid, other than that they may or may not have a hood, are usually sleeveless, cover the back, shoulders and arms as well as the chest when they are fastened with a tie-cord, button, toggle or sometimes an elaborate brooch. And you're quite right when it comes to artistic license with clothes, particularly here I think when the subject never actually was a pilgrim - although he certainly inspired a few

 

[Kathor1]

I often cannot resist the temptation of going down one of these rabbit holes in connection with iconography, ie how Saint James or anything else for that matter was represented in art and literature at a certain time and in a certain region. I am still resisting going down the "button" hole though . As to the collar ... it is not as modern as I had assumed.

A famous statue, carved in wood, of Saint James in the church of the same name in Chatellerault (France) shows a very similar collar; it is the collar of a short esclavine or mantelet and not of a big cloak. The statue is dated to the 17th century, and this item of clothing was apparently fashionable in art during this time (I've got this from an essay about L'image de Saint Jacques en France during the period 12th-19th century). Of course this does not date the OP's sculpture. Just that from the 17th century onwards, this image was known to artists in France, and it may well have served as a template. The very long curly hair is there, too, and also a similar style of his beard. I walked through Chatellerault but I can't remember whether I saw the statue or not. I should have taken more photos and made more notes ...

 

[tigermike]

I often cannot resist the temptation of going down one of these rabbit holes

Me too !
Fun down here isn't it.... ?

 

[Audax]

A regional assignment for this time is difficult. I saw something similar in Soignies (Belgium). The work may have come from the Franco-Flemish region (Belgium or northern France).

 

[tigermike]

Thank you for all your help in identifying the emblem; the scallop shell and crossed staffs motif appears in many depictions of pilgrims over the years and this is but one more example.
I'm still puzzled though as to country of origin.
Is the lack of headgear in this carving significant perhaps ?
The long hair and beard recalls many stylised impressions of St James, and in the absence of any factual image of course a wide degree of artistic license is to be expected.
Oakwood as a medium would perhaps suggest northern Europe especially if this bust originates from the mid 1600's - the patination, wear and old repairs certainly suggest considerable age.
But where or where did it come from and how did it end up in Yorkshire, UK ????

 

[Kathor1]

Oakwood as a medium would perhaps suggest northern Europe especially if this bust originates from the mid 1600's - the patination, wear and old repairs certainly suggest considerable age. But where or where did it come from and how did it end up in Yorkshire, UK ????

The first thing that came to my mind when I read this question is the fact that the massive and huge roof structure of the Cathedral of Notre-Dame de Paris had been made of oakwood. After the fire in April 2018, they decided to rebuild it in oakwood again instead of using modern material (which I personally would have regarded as ok but they did not ask for my opinion ).

News articles from last year like this one in the Guardian report that about 1,000 oaks in more than 200 French forests, both private and public, were chosen to make the new frame of the cathedral transept and spire. And if you put something like "chêne sculpté" "Saint Jacques" France into Google Image search you will find carvings of Saint James from France in oak and from the 17th century onwards as well as even earlier.

So I doubt that the kind of wood allows to rule out France as a country of origin. Of course it could also have come from a German region or from the Low Countries. As others have said, I doubt that we can prove where it comes from and how old it is. We can only not disprove that it could be 17th century French. You may have to live with some degree of uncertainty.

As I understand it, the item comes from a collector's home. It could have been bought anywhere, in France or in England, and may have changed hands not once but several times over the centuries.

 

[tigermike]

So I doubt that the kind of wood allows to rule out France as a country of origin.

Forgive me, I am English and didn't mean to exclude France at all !
When I mentioned 'Northern Europe' what I really meant to say was 'Central Europe', which would of course include England (if it wasn't for Brexit!), France, Belgium, The Netherlands etc.
In other words those countries that have/had extensive deciduous forests with abundant oak trees.
Sorry

 

[Pafayac]

Pilgrimage to Santiago was set for 2 main reasons:
- because the Seljuk Turks have taken Jerusalem and made impossible the pilgrimage to the holy sepulcher, finding another destination less risky, had became urgent.
- the muslims have conquered almost of the iberian peninsula, except the very north. Setting a pilgrimage target there was considered as a means of federating against the Moors ("Santiago matamoros").
At these times, religion, war and conquest were entangled.
Hopefully, that is no more the case now...

 

[Bradypus]

In other words those countries that have/had extensive deciduous forests with abundant oak trees.
Sorry

There's a lot of oak in Spain too. If you walk the Via de la Plata you will spend several days in Andalusia walking through the oak and pasture dehesa landscape.

 

[tigermike]

There's a lot of oak in Spain too.

Eish !
I'm being mobbed
Okay, of course, can't exclude Spain....apologies

 

[Kathor1]

"Santiago matamoros"

Not the slightest reference to Saint James as matamoros can be detected in the sculpture that @tigermike is interested in. The bust does not show a single such attribute. No weapons whatsoever, not even miniature ones.

It is perhaps interesting to note that it is relatively rare to find a representation of Saint James dressed in the uniform of a knight, riding on a horse and waving a sword around, in works of art created outside of Spain. The military and sometimes even blood curdling representation of the apostle and saint is largely absent in Italy and rare in France and Germany. It can be found in the Low Countries as a result of cultural influence from Spain, due to Spanish/Habsburg reign over what is called "Spanish Netherlands" from about 1550 onwards - long past the peak of medieval pilgrimage btw. The story of the active intervention of Saint James in battle is just a made up story and it was made up long after the time when it is supposed to have happened. It did apparently not find much interest in art other than in Spain and in regions owned or colonised by Spain.

So "Santiago Matamoros", though always a popular topic, is a red herring when trying to "identify this old carving".

 

[WGroleau]

Put another way...
How would we, as 21st century pilgrims, be perceived if we had crossed daggers behind the scallop on our backpacks...?

The innocent would be intimidated. But perhaps those of evil intent would be as well.

 

[tigermike]

Not the slightest reference to Saint James as matamoros can be detected in the sculpture that @tigermike is interested in. The bust does not show a single such attribute

I have to agree @Kathar1na, the carving that I'm interested in is an entirely benign, almost supplicating representation - the figure gazes at the onlooker in a benevolent beseeching pose and it was this that originally struck me - and therefore the curious paradox with what I thought were crossed daggers !!!
(Am now gratefully enlightened that the 'daggers' are in fact pilgrim staffs.)
So the humble pose remains, with pilgrim insignia, and yet I'm having a hard time considering this character as just another generic pilgrim...
If I am right, and there is a kind of 'holiness' to his gaze, then that would suggest an apostle.
And the iconography of the shell points to Saint Jacques.
N'est-ce pas ?

 

[Kathor1]

[...] would suggest an apostle. And the iconography of the shell points to Saint Jacques.
N'est-ce pas ?

Mais oui!

 

[tigermike]

Mais oui!

Yaaaaay .

 

[Pafayac]

So "Santiago Matamoros", though always a popular topic, is a red herring when trying to "identify this old carving"

Santiago Matamoros: the shell

 

[Kathor1]

Santiago Matamoros: the shell

Not sure what the connection to this thread is? This looks like a modern sticker to me, perhaps mass-produced in China ... As I said, all this does not contribute much to trying to identify the background of a carving from (most likely) the 17th or 18th century.

 

[lalaone]

You've found a fascinating piece tigermike, one that obviously has many people intrigued. (Myself included!)

Initially, I was struck by the figure's luscious beard and curls. At first they seemed far more reminiscent of ancient Greek statuary, like Apollo or Zeus. I was afraid it might be a modern-day interpretation made to look older. You have enough details, however, to rule out a modern-day replica of a pilgrim or Saint James, so that returns my attention back to the beard, to the fleshiness of the face.

My wild guess is an influence from Titian's studio - not Titian himself, but someone influenced there, maybe even after a lineage of a few generations of teachers. The way of portraying painting to woodcuts to wood statuary, all in those curls and beard and face, just gives me a gut feel. I'd guess Flemish. I'd also try and see if there were artists or studios around your targeted time period which portrayed beards quite this way, and what their influences might have been. Maybe it'll help you narrow down your search, maybe not. But it probably won't be boring to you! Wishing the very best of luck.

 

[Pafayac]

Not sure what the connection to this thread is?

You wrote: "The military and sometimes even blood curdling representation of the apostle and saint is largely absent in Italy and rare in France and Germany. It can be found in the Low Countries as a result of cultural influence from Spain, due to Spanish/Habsburg reign over what is called "Spanish Netherlands" from about 1550 onwards - long past the peak of medieval pilgrimage btw."
I answer, you are wrong. One of the main reasons why Santiago pilgrimage exists is the Reconquista.
By trying to make the readers believe that Santiago Matamoros were invented by XVIth century, you do wrong:
"The Order of Santiago is a religious and military orderfounded in the 12th century."
(see Order of Santiago)
Do you think this Cross of St James is "perhaps mass-produced in China" ?

 

[Kathor1]

The Order of Santiago is a religious and military order founded in the 12th century."

Erm ... the thread is about how Saint James is represented in art during certain specific periods of time and not about where the cross of the Order of Saint James can be seen today, for example on a cake in a bakery in Santiago or on a sticker that is sold on Etsy for AU$14.09 with sewing and gluing instructions included.

 

[tigermike]

Do you think this Cross of St James is "perhaps mass-produced in China" ?

Absolutely, as well as Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia and Papa New Guinea for all I know

 

[tigermike]

All being well I shall know much more about this wonderful carving on Wednesday this week and look forward to posting an update then....

 

[Wombat]

Just a comment on the shell and crossed pole icon. This discussion prompted me to check our small statue of St James purchased in Santiago in 2013. This statue was carved by Lepi (see https://www.lepionline.com/en/miniaturen.php ) and features 3 such shells & poles.
You can get the same statue painted but I much prefer a very natural look with minimal colour.

 

[Neitz]

They are crossed pilgrim staves, as several here have noted. Looking at medieval depictions of pilgrims, a walking staff is probably the second most common badge (after the scallop shell) worn on hats and cloaks. Sometimes as a crossed pair, either behind a shell or on their own, and sometimes single.
You can see several examples in these galleries:

190 Best Pilgrims ideas | pilgrim, medieval, pilgrimage

Dec 2, 2021 - Explore Robert MacPherson's board "Pilgrims", followed by 1,777 people on Pinterest. See more ideas about pilgrim, medieval, pilgrimage.

www.pinterest.com

120 Pilgerwesen-Ideen | pilger, wesen, abzeichen

26.10.2021 - Erkunde Till Pferdestallers Pinnwand „Pilgerwesen“ auf Pinterest. Weitere Ideen zu pilger, wesen, abzeichen.

www.pinterest.com

Here's someone who makes reproductions of medieval pilgrim badges (except lead-free, thankfully). Their repro of a pilgrim staff badge has some interesting information:

Pilgrim Staff Badge - Billy and Charlie

A customer asked for a pilgrim sign of crossed staffs, which as he pointed out, one sees in art, and we thought it was a great idea. So Mac started collecting a Pinterest page of images of pilgrims with hats and signs. (You can see it at https://www.pinterest.com/macs_shop/pilgrims/ if you would...

www.billyandcharlie.com

I will add that they DO look a lot like a medieval "rondel dagger" because of the proportions. If they made a cast metal badge with actual walking staff proportions shrunk down to 2-3" long it would be very slender and breakable.

 

[David Tallan]

You wrote: "The military and sometimes even blood curdling representation of the apostle and saint is largely absent in Italy and rare in France and Germany. It can be found in the Low Countries as a result of cultural influence from Spain, due to Spanish/Habsburg reign over what is called "Spanish Netherlands" from about 1550 onwards - long past the peak of medieval pilgrimage btw."
I answer, you are wrong. One of the main reasons why Santiago pilgrimage exists is the Reconquista.
By trying to make the readers believe that Santiago Matamoros were invented by XVIth century, you do wrong:
"The Order of Santiago is a religious and military orderfounded in the 12th century."
(see Order of Santiago)
Do you think this Cross of St James is "perhaps mass-produced in China" ?

I don't believe anyone in this thread is suggesting that Santiago Matamoros was invented in the 16th century, nor that the cult of Santiago wasn't closely associated with the Reconquista. No one is denying the presence and importance of the Reconquista in the history of Spain and the history of Santiago.

What they are suggesting, however, is that Santiago Matamoros has little to do with the particular sculpture being discussed here (see post #1) above. This bust may be a representation of Santiago. If so, it is a representation of Santiago Peregrino, not Santiago Matamoros. You may notice, perhaps, the distinct lack of a sword, of a horse, and of Moors being trampled under the feet of the horse, all of which are generally common to representations of Santiago Matamoros.

This causes folk here to wonder about the merit or relevance of introducing Santiago Matamoros to this particular discussion.

 

[Kathor1]

Santiago Apóstol, Santiago Peregrino, Santiago Caballero and Santiago Matamoros are labels for specific representations of Saint James in visual art, and there is a timeline of the centuries when these motifs appeared for the first time and when they became common throughout Spain and/or regions of Europe and elsewhere. Anyone with an interest can look up the timeline on the internet, there are dozens if not hundreds of scholars and other knowledgeable people who published about this.

More importantly, it is Wednesday today and:

All being well I shall know much more about this wonderful carving on Wednesday this week and look forward to posting an update then....

I hope all is well?

 

[tigermike]

This bust may be a representation of Santiago. If so, it is a representation of Santiago Peregrino,

Further information is trickling in, the picture is emerging slowly but is far from complete, as yet.
Thank you @DavidTallan for bringing this thread back on track - the bust is almost certainly an artist's rendition of St James; failing that it depicts an early pilgrim - possibly someone of note.
I say that because unless it is a generic interpretation of "a pilgrim' it is a commemorative piece to honour an individual of some importance.
If the latter it may well be a 'portrait in oak' and the carver and the sitter will probably have known each other and spent time together in the object's creation.
Alternatively a 'generic pilgrim' would have been an object of the carver's imagination and/or inspiration from reference materials available to him at the time.
These two possibilities are nonetheless the least favoured of the options available.
The more likely is that this item is indeed a representation of the Apostle St James.
So that now begs the question: From where did the carver get his artistic reference ?
To answer that it may be instructive to examine the base material he chose.
Not stone, bronze or marble for example but oak, and ancient oak at that.
It is tight-grained (slow growing) and shows many characteristics of Old English Oak.
Similar examples strongly indicate mid 16th Century - hold that thought for a moment.
Forensic analysis will be able to confirm country of origin as well the date the wood was harvested.
This will take time, however it is important to remember that although date can be discovered with modern technology two obvious questions remain. 1) For how long was the felled timber stored/dried/seasoned before it was made available for carving ? Here in the UK I know of stored timber that was felled in Victorian times - quite what will become of it in future one can only speculate. 2) Did the block of oak from which this carving was produced remain in the UK or was it exported to mainland Europe and carved there instead ?
Whatever the case the carver, if his intention (or possible commission) was to produce a 'likeness' of St James, in other words something that would have been more or less instantly recognised/identified at the time, would surely have needed material inspiration.
And I'd like to believe that this came from a painting, an existing work of art to which he had access or he received drawings from someone who had.
My self-imposed task therefore for the next few days will be to trawl through as many images as I can find in the hope of finding a match.
And although the facial features might have been somewhat adapted to suit his artistic impression, one tiny detail that @Kathar1na and I discussed earlier might prove to be extremely significant.
The 'toggle' on his cloak !

 

[David Tallan]

Further information is trickling in, the picture is emerging slowly but is far from complete, as yet.
Thank you @DavidTallan for bringing this thread back on track - the bust is almost certainly an artist's rendition of St James; failing that it depicts an early pilgrim - possibly someone of note.
I say that because unless it is a generic interpretation of "a pilgrim' it is a commemorative piece to honour an individual of some importance.
If the latter it may well be a 'portrait in oak' and the carver and the sitter will probably have known each other and spent time together in the object's creation.
Alternatively a 'generic pilgrim' would have been an object of the carver's imagination and/or inspiration from reference materials available to him at the time.
These two possibilities are nonetheless the least favoured of the options available.
The more likely is that this item is indeed a representation of the Apostle St James.
So that now begs the question: From where did the carver get his artistic reference ?
To answer that it may be instructive to examine the base material he chose.
Not stone, bronze or marble for example but oak, and ancient oak at that.
It is tight-grained (slow growing) and shows many characteristics of Old English Oak.
Similar examples strongly indicate mid 16th Century - hold that thought for a moment.
Forensic analysis will be able to confirm country of origin as well the date the wood was harvested.
This will take time, however it is important to remember that although date can be discovered with modern technology two obvious questions remain. 1) For how long was the felled timber stored/dried/seasoned before it was made available for carving ? Here in the UK I know of stored timber that was felled in Victorian times - quite what will become of it in future one can only speculate. 2) Did the block of oak from which this carving was produced remain in the UK or was it exported to mainland Europe and carved there instead ?
Whatever the case the carver, if his intention (or possible commission) was to produce a 'likeness' of St James, in other words something that would have been more or less instantly recognised/identified at the time, would surely have needed material inspiration.
And I'd like to believe that this came from a painting, an existing work of art to which he had access or he received drawings from someone who had.
My self-imposed task therefore for the next few days will be to trawl through as many images as I can find in the hope of finding a match.
And although the facial features might have been somewhat adapted to suit his artistic impression, one tiny detail that @Kathar1na and I discussed earlier might prove to be extremely significant.
The 'toggle' on his cloak !

I am by no means an expert, but a couple of other possibilities present themselves to my imagination beyond Santiago and a generic pilgrim. One is San Roque, not a saint I'm familiar with, but one who seems commonly depicted as a pilgrim to Santiago. Another is a portrait of a particular person (perhaps a patron of the artist) who chooses to be depicted as a pilgrim.

 

[tigermike]

One is San Roque,

Good call - thanks.
Your other suggestion chimes with my own - ie 'someone of importance/note"..

 

[Bradypus]

One is San Roque, not a saint I'm familiar with, but one who seems commonly depicted as a pilgrim to Santiago.

That had crossed my mind too. Unless the image is a full body it would be near impossible to distinguish between images of Santiago or San Roque. When portrayed full-length San Roque is usually shown in pilgrim costume with a bared leg with sores and accompanied by a dog!

RELIGIOUS ART - 17th Century Carvings from the Bible! - Saint Roch

Saint Roch or Rocco was a Christian saint, a confessor whose death is commemorated on 16 August; he is specially invoked against the plag...

painting-mythology.blogspot.com

 

[Tincatinker]

Further information is trickling in, the picture is emerging slowly but is far from complete, as yet.
Thank you @DavidTallan for bringing this thread back on track - the bust is almost certainly an artist's rendition of St James; failing that it depicts an early pilgrim - possibly someone of note.
I say that because unless it is a generic interpretation of "a pilgrim' it is a commemorative piece to honour an individual of some importance.
If the latter it may well be a 'portrait in oak' and the carver and the sitter will probably have known each other and spent time together in the object's creation.
Alternatively a 'generic pilgrim' would have been an object of the carver's imagination and/or inspiration from reference materials available to him at the time.
These two possibilities are nonetheless the least favoured of the options available.
The more likely is that this item is indeed a representation of the Apostle St James.
So that now begs the question: From where did the carver get his artistic reference ?
To answer that it may be instructive to examine the base material he chose.
Not stone, bronze or marble for example but oak, and ancient oak at that.
It is tight-grained (slow growing) and shows many characteristics of Old English Oak.
Similar examples strongly indicate mid 16th Century - hold that thought for a moment.
Forensic analysis will be able to confirm country of origin as well the date the wood was harvested.
This will take time, however it is important to remember that although date can be discovered with modern technology two obvious questions remain. 1) For how long was the felled timber stored/dried/seasoned before it was made available for carving ? Here in the UK I know of stored timber that was felled in Victorian times - quite what will become of it in future one can only speculate. 2) Did the block of oak from which this carving was produced remain in the UK or was it exported to mainland Europe and carved there instead ?
Whatever the case the carver, if his intention (or possible commission) was to produce a 'likeness' of St James, in other words something that would have been more or less instantly recognised/identified at the time, would surely have needed material inspiration.
And I'd like to believe that this came from a painting, an existing work of art to which he had access or he received drawings from someone who had.
My self-imposed task therefore for the next few days will be to trawl through as many images as I can find in the hope of finding a match.
And although the facial features might have been somewhat adapted to suit his artistic impression, one tiny detail that @Kathar1na and I discussed earlier might prove to be extremely significant.
The 'toggle' on his cloak !

It would be a remarkable carver that tackled seasoned oak. Oak is usually worked green. The fantastic detail in the flowing locks would be beyond the craftsmanship of most. The time cost of working seasoned oak would make it a very expensive piece

 

[tigermike]

would be a remarkable carver that tackled seasoned

Remarkable indeed, this carver was evidently an artisan of consummate ability.
Cost, I very much suspect, was never an issue with this piece.
Seasoned or green ?
A valid point - I can see that I have so much more research to do !

 

[VNwalking]

Forensic analysis will be able to confirm country of origin as well the date the wood was harvested.

Dendrochronology? It would take expertise, but would give a lot of information.

 

[tigermike]

Dendrochronology?

Yep. that's the one !
And as an aside....very probably the first time that word has ever been used in the distinguished history of this forum

 

[Bradypus]

Yep. that's the one !
And as an aside....very probably the first time that word has ever been used in the distinguished history of this forum

Looks like it. Though "dendrochronological" has been used before!

 

[tigermike]

Looks like it. Though "dendrochronological" has been used before!

Hahaha !!

 

[Kathor1]

Just a mere thought, as to the UK/England: All the statues of Saint James as a pilgrim that I've viewed online and that fitted the time period, namely ±1650 or within a couple of centuries later, are from Spain, France, Belgium & The Netherlands, or Germany. As far as I understand it, pilgrimage was prohibited in England in the context of the dissolution of the monasteries (around 1550) so I wonder whether there was much interest in depicting Saint James as pilgrim from then on. There were presumably no monasteries left who could have commissioned such a carving for their library or abbey church ...

Again, just as a mere thought, I personally imagine that the carving is part of a set of 12 apostles ...

And oh that wretched toggle on his cloak ... . I've actually not seen many paintings, drawings or carvings with a similar item of clothing, ie a short cape with a collar and with a single button without a loop. Never with a toggle/longish button. Of course, often it is just not possible to see how exactly the cape is closed.

 

[tigermike]

 

[tigermike]

There's a great deal of 'inspirational' art out there.....
So I've just posted a couple to illustrate the possibility that the wood carving is perhaps a three dimensional amalgam of two dimensional paintings.
Guido Reni's heaven-gazing interpretation is particularly interesting don't you think ?

 

[DirtAmy]

As an anthracologist, my interest is definitely piqued with any "dendro-" word! ;-)

Another angle that might help is assessing the fixing methods used for the multiple pieces.

 

[tigermike]

fixing methods used

That is an inspired thought, thank you !
Traditionally (long before synthetic resins) glues would have been made by boiling down animal parts, especially hooves so it may be possible to obtain clues by analysing a sample.....

 

[Kathor1]

@tigermike: Wow.

Is it yours?

 

[tigermike]

Is it yours?

Sadly not and I'm mortified....
Took it by phone to £3000 but there were still two more bids after that !!!
From an initial estimate of £500/700 it finally sold for £3500 + 26% buyer's premium, ergo £4410 ($5100).
Somebody somewhere will be absolutely delighted with this wonderful object - and I wish them well.

 

[VNwalking]

Sadly not and I'm mortified....

No need to be mortified. Someone paid a lot, is all. And you can use that cash for your next camino.

 

[tigermike]

Someone paid a lot, is all.

No Sir, I remain mortified.
It was sold to a dealer who will flip it to a client and thus it has been reduced to a mere dollars and cents commercial commodity.
I would have kept it forever, treasured it and was so looking forward to taking the many contributors to this thread on the journey of discovery as we put the pieces of the puzzle together.
This carving is unique, exceptionally rare, centuries old; it has a 'presence' hard to describe and if only it could speak would tell a quite fascinating story - of that I am in no doubt whatsoever.
Alas it was not to be.
However I would like to thank everyone here who helped with inspired and valid ideas and opinions.
Ultreia.

 

[tigermike]

It did end up with a dealer, as suspected...he bought it for £4410 and is now asking £12,000 !!!

See: https://www.matthewholder.com/produ...he-greater-circle-of-hendrik-frans-verbruggen

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

Sadly not and I'm mortified....
Took it by phone to £3000 but there were still two more bids after that !!!
From an initial estimate of £500/700 it finally sold for £3500 + 26% buyer's premium, ergo £4410 ($5100).
Somebody somewhere will be absolutely delighted with this wonderful object - and I wish them well.

I had a similar story, but a little in reverse.
I had an academic book being published long ago (2007?) and I had, through the gallery that held it, secured the rights to use Modigliani’s “Hermphrodite Caryatid” for the front cover art. Unfortunately, from the time we secured the rights to the point of going to press, the drawing was purchased by a private buyer and that person refused to extend the rights. My book was still published, but I will forever mourn the loss of that cover art, and I do hope that whoever owns it now truly loves it.