Please Don't Shoot Me - Forum Rules

[Robo]

I was just reading through the Forum Rules, and unfortunately that thread is closed for further comment. So I'll post here is that is OK.

OK, first up. I think the rules are a great idea and very necessary and I should add that I think Ivar and the Moderators do a great job of managing the Forum and applying the rules fairly when required.

But...

Rule #2 was politely questioned at the time the rules were applied. And specifically the topic of Religion. Politics should definitely be out! But religion? I'm not so sure.

Many Pilgrims talk about religion with others as they walk the Camino. Many of us attend Mass during the walk or at the end. Many of us walk due to religious reasons. Many of us have 'faith' of varying types. Mine is not Catholic as such. And the Camino is actually a religious pilgrimage route.

Religion, like Politics is certainly one of those topics best not brought up at a Dinner party. But here? It seems to me that maybe there is a sub forum missing? I would certainly be interested to hear how other Pilgrims renewed their Faith on the Camino, found Faith on the Camino, how their specific Faith 'fitted' with the Camino etc etc.

And I acknowledge that there is a lot of leeway given by the Mods on the topic. But it is still kind of 'banned'.

Sure there is some potential for disagreement, but heck, we get heated debates about poles and packs!

And it just strikes me that we have, as far as most forums go, a very mature and sensible membership who 'play fair' 99% of the time. If it's a topic of no interest to many members, fine, they can ignore it. Like I ignore threads about cycling

Just asking

If I have stepped over the line, or opened old wounds, feel free to delete this tread immediately.

 

[Kanga]

Poles and packs are factual matters.

Generally we allow people to relay their own personal experiences, but that does not include telling people what to believe, criticising or proselytising. Threads on religion tend to stray into doing that, and it all becomes very unpleasant.

Moderators on the forum are volunteers who can only give limited time. Some people seem to think we spend all our time online, and every post is read as soon as it goes up. It does not happen that way! The rules and the points system help to keep the forum ticking over without us having to spend all our lives online.

 

[Robo]

Fair enough. Please delete the thread so as not to cause any angst.

 

[notion900]

There was a really cool thread a while back about what to do in church in Spain. The definitive rules on punctuality (or not) gave me great joy. Can anyone post the link?

 

[Kanga]

No angst @Robo. I did not mean to sound defensive or upset. Its good to let people know why we do what we do - @ivar is a benevolent dictator!

 

[Robo]

No angst @Robo. @ivar is a benevolent dictator!

Best way to run a Forum I think

 

[MichaelB10398]

I was just reading through the Forum Rules, and unfortunately that thread is closed for further comment. So I'll post here is that is OK.

OK, first up. I think the rules are a great idea and very necessary and I should add that I think Ivar and the Moderators do a great job of managing the Forum and applying the rules fairly when required.

But...

Rule #2 was politely questioned at the time the rules were applied. And specifically the topic of Religion. Politics should definitely be out! But religion? I'm not so sure.

Many Pilgrims talk about religion with others as they walk the Camino. Many of us attend Mass during the walk or at the end. Many of us walk due to religious reasons. Many of us have 'faith' of varying types. Mine is not Catholic as such. And the Camino is actually a religious pilgrimage route.

Religion, like Politics is certainly one of those topics best not brought up at a Dinner party. But here? It seems to me that maybe there is a sub forum missing? I would certainly be interested to hear how other Pilgrims renewed their Faith on the Camino, found Faith on the Camino, how their specific Faith 'fitted' with the Camino etc etc.

And I acknowledge that there is a lot of leeway given by the Mods on the topic. But it is still kind of 'banned'.

Sure there is some potential for disagreement, but heck, we get heated debates about poles and packs!

And it just strikes me that we have, as far as most forums go, a very mature and sensible membership who 'play fair' 99% of the time. If it's a topic of no interest to many members, fine, they can ignore it. Like I ignore threads about cycling

Just asking

If I have stepped over the line, or opened old wounds, feel free to delete this tread immediately.

I appreciate your question, but these rules, this one in particular, has been learned through experience and many hard lessons. Faith is such a deeply personal thing and we have religious and spiritual members who come from a very broad range of churches, denominations, or none at all. It has proven that too often individuals will go too far and hurt feelings are the result.

We can mention the religious and the spiritual, but it is best to address the topics obliquely or to soft-peddle the comment. Use care when to avoid any statment that appears or can be read as judgmental of another's faith or religious affiliation. Does that make sense?

Lastly, what can be said face to face is much easier than saying in writing over the internet to the public. There is just too many social cues we miss by not communicating in person.

Peace and with abiding respect,

 

[Robo]

I appreciate your question, but these rules, this one in particular, has been learned through experience and many hard lessons. Faith is such a deeply personal thing and we have religious and spiritual members who come from a very broad range of churches, denominations, or none at all. It has proven that too often individuals will go too far and hurt feelings are the result.

We can mention the religious and the spiritual, but it is best to address the topics obliquely or to soft-peddle the comment. Use care when to avoid any statment that appears or can be read as judgmental of another's faith or religious affiliation. Does that make sense?

Lastly, what can be said face to face is much easier than saying in writing over the internet to the public. There is just too many social cues we miss by not communicating in person.

Peace and with abiding respect,

Fully understand. My interest was merely to learn rather than to 'preach'

 

[simply B]

@Robo -

Understanding the sensitivities involved, and as are sincerely inquiring, you are hereby invited to send me a PM on the topic.

I can tell you my experience with no reply necessary. I suspect that we are both busy and possessed of limited time.

B

 

[Deleted member 43780]

Robo, good question. And, many good replies above. I don't think it will cause much grief.

Not knowing what aspect of religion you would like to discuss, I will relate my personal experiences.

Best never tell anyone what to do, or not do. Or believe or not believe.

I grew up in Seville. During Franco's time. I could tell you about the church (and religion) during that period. But, best not to discuss such on the main. I will do so in private conversation(s).

Briefly, my mother was a devout Catholic. Which meant we went to almost every church in Seville! My brother and I were altar boys in many churches in Seville including the Seville Cathedral. As many know, its minaret, which was converted into a bell tower known as La Giralda, is now the city's most well-known symbol.

My brother and I climbed the Giralda.... many times. There was no entry fee. If there was, it was a fraction of a peseta. No long lines of tourists waiting to get into the Cathedral or La Giralda. Not many tourists in the 40s and 50s. In the 50s hardly any cars on the streets.

Being a old guy, 70+, I remember how things were in Spain in the late 40s and 50s and 60s, and on. Including religion and the church - state relationship. Spain was different then. The church was different then. Religion was different then.

My experiences made for long discussions with Camino pals on the Frances.

But, in keeping with rules of not discussing religion, I only discuss in private conversations.

 

[VNwalking]

The intersection of recent Spanish history and religion are definitely off limits here. And it feels too sensitive a topic out there, while walking, too. It's impossible not to feel the ghosts as they press in from all sides. And no-one seems to talk about it, except obliquely. I can see why--I found a good history of those times, but could hardly get through it--almost every few pages there was something that made me put the book down so that I could deal with the tears that came. It was an eye-opener.
As outsiders, it pays to be sensitive and not probe--but to really deeply listen if someone does bring it up.
So, @martyseville , how rich it would be to hear your stories in person, on the Camino, putting one foot in front of the other. It would be a privilege.

And @Robo--thank you for your question. It is good get a better sense of the reason behind what the rule says.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Hola @Robo, as one who has been "punished/warned" for over-stepping the mark I understand your position. (I accept that I was wrong Jill).

I view your comments (the original) as useful discussion, more a question about why something is or is not permitted. I would hope that the moderators allow limited responses - provided those who respond "stay on message".

(Mods - is this permitted??)

 

[Kanga]

Yes. Now that will cost you a glass of red at the next Pilgrims meeting. Corrupt me! (Whoops, one of our local politicians has been found guilty of that today and is facing a gaol term).

 

[Kiwi-family]

whispering....I like @Robo 's idea of a separate subforum for interested parties.
And I'd love to listen to @martyseville

 

[wayfarer]

Yes. Now that will cost you a glass of red at the next Pilgrims meeting. Corrupt me! (Whoops, one of our local politicians has been found guilty of that today and is facing a gaol term).

Political content @Kanga , that will cost you several glasses of Jameson if we ever meet in Santiago . Robo's question is a valid one but experience has shown us that debating points of religion usually ends badly, the same with bullfighting and sport.

 

[Kanga]

Ah, @wayfarer the person in question is no longer a politician, he's a criminal. By definition. Our constitution prohibits anyone under sentence or subject to sentence from holding office.

Might be a Good Thing if he served time walking the camino.

 

[wayfarer]

Ah, @wayfarer the person in question is no longer a politician, he's a criminal. By definition. Our constitution prohibits anyone under sentence or subject to sentence from holding office.

Might be a Good Thing if he served time walking the camino.

So you are saying no Jameson then.

 

[wayfarer]

whispering....I like @Robo 's idea of a separate subforum for interested parties.
And I'd love to listen to @martyseville

There is such a place but it still requires moderation.
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/social-categories/special-camino-topics.147/

 

[Kanga]

For any of my friends @wayfarer, there is always a Jameson. Provided we can find one in SDC.

 

[Robo]

Yes. Now that will cost you a glass of red at the next Pilgrims meeting. Corrupt me! (Whoops, one of our local politicians has been found guilty of that today and is facing a gaol term).

Must get along to another Pilgrims meeting sometime! I'll bring the Rioja

 

[m108]

I think that religion is a very personal and intimate category. Like some other very intimate / personal stuff, I do not see the need for exposure to the forum. The result can be a debate about something which is not to discuss, but practice / living. Of course - personal contact is differently

 

[Fletchonides]

As a committed Christian/Catholic who wouldn't be walking the Camino if not for my faith, I have to say that I do find it restrictive not to be able to talk about what is important to me. At the same time I have seen in other places well meaning but misunderstood comments send religious/faith topics off on directions that are not helpful, so I can understand the reasoning. Respectful dialog is always preferable to 'My way is better than your way'.

I didn't know about the 'Catholics on the Camino' subgroup. How does one join? i couldn't see any obvious mechanism.

 

[wayfarer]

There is a way to join but I just can't see it at the moment as this category has not been used for a while and I am rusty, @ivar may be able to shed some light on the subject. These Threads are still liable to moderation because disputes can still occur among members there.

 

[susanawee]

whispering....I like @Robo 's idea of a separate subforum for interested parties.
And I'd love to listen to @martyseville

as would I......

 

[wayfarer]

as would I......

See my last two posts. #18 and #23

 

[Deleted member 43780]

good replies from all.

Two reasons not to go discussing such on this board:
1. To honor and respect all the rules of this board. And,
2. Not to offend anyone or step on any toes.

Yes, a very touchy subject to say the least.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

Political content @Kanga , that will cost you several glasses of Jameson if we ever meet in Santiago .

Me-too-me-too-me-too! Only can mine be Tullamore Dew?

 

[Priscilla NC]

There is such a place but it still requires moderation.
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/social-categories/special-camino-topics.147/

OK, I found this, but could not find how to 'join this group'. Help???

 

[Playful Dread]

OK, I found this, but could not find how to 'join this group'. Help???

It seems it's set to "private" (as are the other topics of conversation) and I wondered whether that was just showing up for me as a new member and that maybe I needed to upgrade my forum membership. I've been on other forums where this has been the case but that may not be so here. I'm sure a moderator will be able to shine some light on this though.

 

[Tincatinker]

On the selected Social Forum page, at the lower right of the introductory statement you should see a drop-down button called 'social forum tools' if you click on it you should be able to 'join the forum'. That said I have a 'moderator' view and no way of knowing if thats what members see. I hope it works for you.

This feature of the forum has not been much used, as has been said above. Discussions in the open forum have met most members needs and the PM feature provides for small group discussions. I believe up to 30, and possibly more, members can have a 'Private Conversation' - if that isn't a little oxymoronic in conception.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Yes. Now that will cost you a glass of red at the next Pilgrims meeting. Corrupt me! (Whoops, one of our local politicians has been found guilty of that today and is facing a gaol term).

OK - you're on - luckily it will be after midday so April Fool Rules will not apply!!

 

[Saint Mike II]

Must get along to another Pilgrims meeting sometime! I'll bring the Rioja

G'Day - Robo - be at the Sydney City RSL ( in George St - just down from Liverpool St), at 12.00 (midday) this Saturday and you can collect the fine!!. Cheers

 

[Priscilla NC]

On the selected Social Forum page, at the lower right of the introductory statement you should see a drop-down button called 'social forum tools' if you click on it you should be able to 'join the forum'. That said I have a 'moderator' view and no way of knowing if thats what members see. I hope it works for you.

This feature of the forum has not been much used, as has been said above. Discussions in the open forum have met most members needs and the PM feature provides for small group discussions. I believe up to 30, and possibly more, members can have a 'Private Conversation' - if that isn't a little oxymoronic in conception.

OK, thanks so much -- took a while to get it, but I think I've joined...

 

[timr]

There was a really cool thread a while back about what to do in church in Spain. The definitive rules on punctuality (or not) gave me great joy. Can anyone post the link?

Hi @notion900 Is it this? https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/as-a-protestant.42703/#post-438112

 

[Robo]

G'Day - Robo - be at the Sydney City RSL ( in George St - just down from Liverpool St), at 12.00 (midday) this Saturday and you can collect the fine!!. Cheers

Is it BYO Mike? I'll bring some Rioja

I'm at a conference all day tomorrow, but if it's boring I'll slip away

 

[JabbaPapa]

In my experience, topical discussions concerning factual or practical elements of religious life on the Camino, as it pertains to Pilgrims and the Way of Saint James, are typically tolerated, and it's only if discussions start to veer off-topic and to be about religion or religions as such that the rules start to be more seriously applied.

And I think it's right -- because even though the Way of Saint James is a Catholic pilgrimage, it has always been open to those of this religion, and other religions, or none ; and BTW since the Middle Ages, for this openness is not a modern invention. It's the one major Catholic pilgrimage where the importance of the pilgrimage transcends its own Catholic identity. And I think this forum policy well expresses this universalism that the Camino has embodied (within the Catholic Tradition) for well over a thousand years.

The policy can from time to time be a little frustrating, in the very rare cases where some more focused religious comments might be actually pertinent to practical and pragmatic elements of pilgrim activities on the Camino -- but generally speaking, it's the right policy, including from a Catholic perspective.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I think that religion is a very personal and intimate category.

I disagree entirely -- but this is hardly the place for this sort of discussion

We really cannot let fundamental, even existential, disagreements of this sort put the health of the forum as a whole at risk -- though I'd be more than happy to argue the point with you if we were to meet on the Camino itself !!

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

Before this top is "...now closed..." by anyone, I'd just like to say that 2 weeks ago I was near Alicante - actually in Altea on the Costa Blanca, and found the most beautiful Russian Orthodox church. I attended a service: the singing was angelic! Maybe I should add that I'm Anglican, my father was a Methodist preacher, and I was a Catholic for 30 years!



I was made most welcome - as in all the churches, of whatever denomination.

Bless you all - believers, non-believers and other-believers !
Stephen.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

Bless you all - believers, non-believers and other-believers !
Stephen.

What a wonderfully marvelous thing to say! Thank you, Stephen!

 

[m108]

Thank you, Stephen!

 

[tpmchugh]

For any of my friends @wayfarer, there is always a Jameson. Provided we can find one in SDC.

Can I be your friend, I love a drop of Jameson BTW is debating the virtues of Irish against thon Scotch stuff political

 

[Tincatinker]

As ani fule no the only difference between whiskey and whisky is 'eeeee alright, one more'. Of course any discussion on that stuff the poor benighted colonists are forced to make from maize rather than barley would be moving beyond cultural........

 

[Kanga]

@Tincatinker - sir! I think a tour of Tasmania is in order. And I quote from that most reputable of sources....Wikipedia:

"In 2014, Sullivans Cove French Oak Cask (named after Sullivans Cove) was given the World Whiskies Award for the world's best single malt whisky.[2] It was the first time a distillery outside Scotland or Japan had won the award.[8][9]"

I'm not sure how this fits in with The Camino. Endorphins perhaps?

 

[natefaith]

Luckily for @wayfarer , @Kanga , @tpmchugh and others who want Jameson, @wayfarer gave us a bottle of it a couple years ago. Nate drank it all (not in one sitting) and then we found even more at Carrefour! So if anyone wants any Jameson in celebration of finishing the Camino, there is some in Santiago! (Way to pay it forward, wayfarer! )

On the original subject - I think that when threads fall into *debating* about religion, and which way is better or true or right - then that's what we're trying to avoid. But if we're speaking from practical experience or asking a question about the resources out there, that's more accepted and welcome.

Hope that helps.
Faith