"Pilgrims"asking for money

[staciesthings]

I just returned from the Camino Frances.... changed my life for the better in so many ways. My only peeve were the "pilgrims" along the way asking for money. This happened three times. It wouldn't have bugged me if their stories weren't so lame. 1) a german man in logroño saying his credit cards were cut up in Santiago and he was trying to get to the embassy in Madrid (wrong way dude!) 2) not even going to tell this sortie because he got me with his 6 week old puppy 3) a guy outside of melide saying he had walked from France (me too! ) and he needed money for the next albergue (me too!). One word. ..donativo! If I ran out of money on the Camino, you make plenty of friends and your Camino family will help you out. Just venting. ... anyone else? Otherwise. ... I'm going back to do the Camino del Norte in 16 months.... I'm addicted and have only been home 10 days.

 

[Olivares]

Well, you don't need to step on the Camino to encountered people asking for money. I dealt with it the same way I deal with it at home; keep walking. I sincerely believe real needs seek real solutions and begging strangers for money seems to be the "bottom of the barrel" when it comes to fixing a money situation.....which makes me wonder why the other better choices didn't panned out.... We all know somebody always looking for a free ride....not sure why would it be different on the Camino.

 

[MichaelSG]

I met a cute, young eastern-European woman in the albergue at Azorfa. She seemed overly friendly to me until my wife walked over to say hello. My new friend immediately turned on her heels and bounced over to the next guy through the door, making a new best friend. We ran into her a few more times and it was quite clear that she was offering friendship for continued support to complete the Camino. I didn't and I don't judge her - or the guys she ended up with. To each their own and I don't know them or their situation but you meet all kinds on the Camino, just like in life.

 

[Healing Pilgrim]

Hi Stacie, Sounds like you had a wonderful Camino despite the unexpected pilgrim-panhandlers.. I too ran into a strange sort, much like you describe. It happened right at the top of 'Mount' Sarria, in fact just at the top turn out of the town. This young man was of Russian origin, seemed to be well dressed, full backpack, showered etc. He asked for money. I stopped and spoke to him for quite a long while. I tried offering him all sorts of solutions, including heading back down to seek out a donativo albergue, wiring for money, withdrawing money (it wasn't like he was in remote, ATM-less El Ganso), etc. But he simply growled, brushed me off with attitude and sat back down, so he could "wait until the next pilgrim comes who will be nicer than me and help me (him) out." I offered him my blessings and walked on. At the time, and in hindsight, I believe that I did the best I could under the circumstances (lead a horse to water, etc etc)... which I think is the best we can expect of ourselves, nyet?

 

[tploomis]

I just returned from the Camino Frances.... changed my life for the better in so many ways. My only peeve were the "pilgrims" along the way asking for money. This happened three times. It wouldn't have bugged me if their stories weren't so lame. 1) a german man in logroño saying his credit cards were cut up in Santiago and he was trying to get to the embassy in Madrid (wrong way dude!) 2) not even going to tell this sortie because he got me with his 6 week old puppy 3) a guy outside of melide saying he had walked from France (me too! ) and he needed money for the next albergue (me too!). One word. ..donativo! If I ran out of money on the Camino, you make plenty of friends and your Camino family will help you out. Just venting. ... anyone else? Otherwise. ... I'm going back to do the Camino del Norte in 16 months.... I'm addicted and have only been home 10 days.

If I ran out of money on the Camino, I would go home and make some more. I don't think donativo means free -- it means pay what is appropriate.

 

[nreyn12]

I came across a couple of these pilgrims asking for money this year, and my first reaction was that it was a scam and they were not actually pilgrims. Anyone else feel this way? I would think that a destitute pilgrim might be more inclined to go to an albergue and offer work exchange. But never having been in their boots...

 

[Tia Valeria]

Advice we were given many years ago was 'don't give money' but offer to share some basic food. The genuine will be grateful, the scroungers will be put off. If there is obvious genuine need then you can always extend the help you give.
In Lugo we had a girl ask for money as we went into the panaderia. We had no change and shook our heads and she turned away. Coming out we felt moved to give her something...and she was so grateful and went straight into the shop to buy some bread. A genuine need and we were glad to have helped.
Pray for guidance and do what feels right with each situation is maybe the answer for us as pilgrims.

 

[koilife]

I agree 110% with offering to help with food or even lodging. It very rapidly sorts out the recipient's motives.

Sometimes, however, "stuff" happens and people legitimately need a hand. I unexpectedly ran out of cash en route to Foncebaddon (mistakenly thought I still had a 50E note stashed to get us through to Molinaseca). Another pilgrim overheard the conversation between my son and I, and he offered us a bocadillo for each of us for that night and another for each of us for the next day, which allowed us to stretch our final euros at the albergue. I repaid him in spades (actually wine and steak) when I met up with him in Molinaseca.

 

[PANO]

I agree 110% with offering to help with food or even lodging. It very rapidly sorts out the recipient's motives. Sometimes, however, "stuff" happens and people legitimately need a hand. I unexpectedly ran out of cash en route to Foncebaddon (mistakenly thought I still had a 50E note stashed to get us through to Molinaseca). Another pilgrim overheard the conversation between my son and I, and he offered us a bocadillo for each of us for that night and another for each of us for the next day, which allowed us to stretch our final euros at the albergue. I repaid him in spades (actually wine and steak) when I met up with him in Molinaseca.

Exactly this happened to me and in the same place! Yes, it’s easy to say that begging on the Camino is «bottom of the barrel» and that «the Camino family will help out»; how so, if everybody would «just keeps on walking»? Sure, obvious liars get a "no", as none of us likes to be taken for a sucker. But then, anyone begging on the Camino must be pretty desperate and a good story is always worth a few coins to me. Unlike those slick business-types that have royally screwed me big time in my life, these beggars do it to survive.
And I had to smile reading

I met a cute, young eastern-European woman in the albergue at Azorfa......

give and take in the true spirit of the Camino, at least she had an original idea to finance hers!

 

[ChristineW67]

I don't fear being labeled a sucker. I fear owning a hardened heart. When I was a young mother and very poor, I prayed (and worked) for enough money to live well and give well. The money it takes for me to travel proves that I finally have more than enough. Sharing a few bucks can't hurt me, and it doesn't really matter if its a scam. Because at the end of the day, I still have more than enough - and that is a prayer answered.

 

[dougfitz]

I came across a couple of these pilgrims asking for money this year, and my first reaction was that it was a scam and they were not actually pilgrims. Anyone else feel this way? I would think that a destitute pilgrim might be more inclined to go to an albergue and offer work exchange. But never having been in their boots...

I am cautious about anyone asking for money, but often is it just begging, rather than a scam. I don't have a difficulty saying no in either circumstance, but it annoys me when I see forum members taken in by stories that appear to be classic begging lines. We have recently had the 'lost 1000 euro that has just been withdrawn from the cash machine' which must be the foundation line for many thousands of beggars. It wouldn't take many 2 or 5 euro donations to make it a lucrative day. Provided they aren't suggesting that it will be returned to you, eg with a profit, it doesn't sound like a scam.

There is always the prospect that there is an element of false pretences - eg suggesting that they are collecting for a charity, and there have been a few mentions of this as well.

BTW, if you want your begging line to be credible, you need to look the part. On the camino, you will need to look like a pilgrim. Its not going to be credible looking like you should be begging at a church door, although I suspect those that do are also carefully dressed for the part, and not in their last set of bedraggled clothes.

Is this cynical? Perhaps, but I suspect many forum members have led somewhat sheltered lives given the reactions I have seen here, and are easy prey to a good sob story.

 

[simply B]

Ditto, Christine!

One thing I am careful about though is NOT revealing where I keep my 'cash stash'. Since I can be (not always) a "sucker" with cash, I keep the 3-4 euros per day that I might be coaxed to part with in a coat or shirt pocket that holds nothing else.
Donating is one thing. Showing an observer where to reach for your money is another.

Offering food and drink, I do every time and it was my observation that most folks did the same. Compassionate, safe...... and refused about 90% of the time.

B

BTW, does someone remember a thread here dedicated to scams? I seem to remember it but cannot put my finger on it in the time I have available at the moment. I seem to remember the "German guy" with the cut-up credit cards being in it. I met up with him both times I have been out and it was at Logrono. It is a pretty bogus story; I mean - - debit card replacement is not exactly rocket surgery. Still, he stung quite a few folks from tales I heard later.

 

[ChristineW67]

Ditto, Christine!

One thing I am careful about though is NOT revealing where I keep my 'cash stash'. Since I can be (not always) a "sucker" with cash, I keep the 3-4 euros per day that I might be coaxed to part with in a coat or shirt pocket that holds nothing else.
Donating is one thing. Showing an observer where to reach for your money is another.

Offering food and drink, I do every time and it was my observation that most folks did the same. Compassionate, safe...... and refused about 90% of the time.

B

BTW, does someone remember a thread here dedicated to scams? I seem to remember it but cannot put my finger on it in the time I have available at the moment. I seem to remember the "German guy" with the cut-up credit cards being in it. I met up with him both times I have been out and it was at Logrono. It is a pretty bogus story; I mean - - debit card replacement is not exactly rocket surgery. Still, he stung quite a few folks from tales I heard later.

First, I love the mixed metaphor Rocket Surgery. I'm going to use it in the future! Next, I like your idea of keeping a few bucks separated for "donation purposes." It will make the exchange quicker, more discrete, and safer. Good tip.

 

[grayland]

The Camino has become popular with scammers of all kinds. The word is out that there are huge numbers of good hearted people carrying decent amounts of money.
If in doubt .. Just say "sorry" and move on.

The same warnings must be carefully heeded in the albergues with your money and valuables. The scammers also know about the easy pickings with trusting pilgrims.
They often pose as fellow pilgrims....sometimes offering to "watch" your stuff while you shower or do something else. The result is obvious.

It is really unfortunate that we are on the active radar of the bad guys and dirt bags...but there you are.

 

[DeadFred]

I really don't mind handing over a few bucks to someone that needs help . Criteria for help set by me however . Spain has a not just a few folks that are in dire straits due to the recession. But as a few here have said food or shelter are good offerings. Money is to .. if you need to eat . I'll buy you a dinner, If you need something to sleep, a bed..etc . Then there's cash and a few bucks is ok to hand over if theres detectable need

Being x-military (Navy) I have seen plenty of pandhandlers , wino's ,beggars and the destitute ..each has it's resonance and are easy to detect ..Go to Fishermans Wharf in San Francisco , stand still and count to 100 . Walk thru the Port Authoriity Bldg NYC .. actually its best if you run through the Port Authority Bldg . Race Street in Philadelphia, Pa , homeless by the dozens.. on and on .

Camino Panhandling ?... Pfffft , no problemo ..

 

[mspath]

....
The same warnings must be carefully heeded in the albergues with your money and valuables. The scammers also know about the easy pickings with trusting pilgrims.
They often pose as fellow pilgrims....sometimes offering to "watch" your stuff while you shower or do something else. The result is obvious....

Like many other pilgrims I sleep with any valuables within my sleeping bag and NEVER tell anyone where and what they are!! A few years ago in Trinidad de Arre an actor from LA who was bunked next to me asked anxiously "Where do you have your money?" As if on cue I rolled my eyes and answered "Why in the bank! And you?"

Read this Forum thread with more useful tips on camino security.

Buen Camino,

MM

 

[Jabaldo]

I just returned from the Camino Frances.... changed my life for the better in so many ways. My only peeve were the "pilgrims" along the way asking for money. This happened three times. It wouldn't have bugged me if their stories weren't so lame. 1) a german man in logroño saying his credit cards were cut up in Santiago and he was trying to get to the embassy in Madrid (wrong way dude!) 2) not even going to tell this sortie because he got me with his 6 week old puppy 3) a guy outside of melide saying he had walked from France (me too! ) and he needed money for the next albergue (me too!). One word. ..donativo! If I ran out of money on the Camino, you make plenty of friends and your Camino family will help you out. Just venting. ... anyone else? Otherwise. ... I'm going back to do the Camino del Norte in 16 months.... I'm addicted and have only been home 10 days.

There is a series of books written by a priest from Buffalo NY. The one book I remember is one called Joshua. My son who's name is Joshua gave it to me for Christmas many years ago. I read the book. It is about Christ returning to our current world in many forms. As a simple person, as a beggar. He came back and was looking for a hand out from many people. Most people turned him away, those who could afford it the most. Then Christ asked a man who was also down and out, this man of course shared with Christ what he had, as little as it was. Christ then revealed himself to the man who life from that point changed for the better. My point is that we are all the children of Christ. You never know who the beggar might be.

 

[jpflavin1]

My approach to those asking for assistance is to ask what they need. If it is food, I will take them to eat. If they need a room for the night, I will pay for their room. I have given people clothing and medical assistance. In some cases, after sharing a meal with someone, I will give them a few euro's for the next room or some food later. I do not just hand out money.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[LoneStar]

There are indeed members of the “villains, thieves and scoundrel’s union” on the Camino just as there are all over the world. The advice and suggestions given seem very appropriate. This spring I hiked from SJPDP to Finisterra. I got to spend four days in Santiago waiting for my flight to Madrid and got the chance to see various and assorted beggars and street performers. I was moved by a small number of young folks who spent their day kneeling with their eyes cast downwards. I also ran into a number of rail thin street performers. I do not know their story; I should have asked. John Brierly, and I apologize for not quoting his exact words, suggests that pilgrims might consider having some small coins for these types of folks. I brought home one less souvenir which turned out okay since I still have a shirt, some pins and a cup that need a home.

 

[bystander]

There is a great deal of difference between a person in need and a person in greed.
If I judge someone is in need I will buy them what they need - be it food and/or drink but I will not part with cash.
If I judge someone to be a scrounger I will ignore them and move on.
By what measure do I judge them?
For a few years I lived in the centre of London - within 400 metres of Piccadilly Circus.
I quickly learnt the difference between the destitute and the panhandlers.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

It is about Christ returning to our current world in many forms. As a simple person, as a beggar. He came back and was looking for a hand out from many people. Most people turned him away, those who could afford it the most. Then Christ asked a man who was also down and out, this man of course shared with Christ what he had, as little as it was.

I hope the single barometer of charity is not what one gives to street people. I have given tens of thousands of dollars and at least as many hours doing community service personally and through Boy Scouts and Lions International. (Example: $4,000 annually for Christmas food baskets through my twelve-member Lions Club.) I rarely give anything in the street. I unapologetically confess to being guilt-free!!

 

[Sue M]

Don't be taken in by the girls pretending to be dumb and asking for money and your address. They are gypsies and there is nothing wrong with them. I can't remember where they are exactly (between Sarria and Santiago) but I came across them in July and September last year.

 

[Tincatinker]

Don't be taken in by the girls pretending to be dumb and asking for money and your address. They are gypsies and there is nothing wrong with them. I can't remember where they are exactly (between Sarria and Santiago) but I came across them in July and September last year.

Sue, I love most of your posts but this one scratched my skin. I mean no personal criticism. I just want to suggest an alternative view. I agree that the girls you referred to are running a scam, that they are neither deaf nor dumb as many have witnessed in various threads. They have also been variously described as Hungarian, Romanian, Roma or Gypsy. If they are "Gypsy" then there actually really is something wrong with them: they are excluded from European society to a brutal degree that should be totally unacceptable. To be tagged as Gypsy means you are a thief, a liar, and a threat to civilisation. You will never get an education, you will never find employment other than exploitative agricultural work, you will be harassed by police, and every other form of authority wherever you go. Your family or your gangmaster will keep you locked into this lifestyle as thoroughly as society keeps you locked out.

Giving them a Euro and "Obama, White House, Washington" won't change their lives but it might save them from a beating. Just watch your pockets while you fill in that form...

 

[Olivares]

I read the book. It is about Christ returning to our current world in many forms. As a simple person, as a beggar.

Many, many years ago I was chastised by a beggar whom I offered to buy a meal when he asked me for "money for food". He wanted the money. So, Jabaldo, as far as am concerned, the Devil is just as clever in returning to this world in many forms... Sorry, I am with Falcon on this one; I volunteered at the local Food Bank, church, and give bi-weekly to a charity of choice. I would never hand-over a penny to a beggar in the streets. More likely than not, I would just be contributing to their further demise.

 

[bystander]

There is, or used to be, an Anti-Mendicancy Law in this country (UK) which forbids begging and also charity workers shaking their tins at you or, verbally, asking for money.
The only collectors who, locally, behave according to the law are the RNLI and the Salvation Army to both of whom I give as much as I can afford.
As to "chuggers" (Charity muggers) don't get me started........!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

We are told by the masters of every religion to give to the poor.
They don't specify which ones.
Whenever someone asks me for money, I give him whatever change is in my pocket. I never run short.
Life is too short to judge the motives of the people who are just asking for scraps. That could so easily be me someday.

 

[Daxzentzu]

We have a choice in these matters and I think that it's part of the temptations of pilgrimage to come to terms with the ethics of alms.

I think that it's not what one gives but how one gives.

It's not the amount that's given, it's what the underlying motive for the giving that distinguishes the transaction.

I think that the intrinsic motivation within, is what determines the rightness or wrongness of giving, or even of not giving.

Do I judge the beggar to be worthy of my money.

Do they pass my test of their "fitness to receive"

Lest we forget, also, the many gifts and blessings that are afforded to us along the way of St James.

And for some of us - we are just doing a long walk to the end of the world.

It's your camino!


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[DurhamParish]

I just returned from the Camino Frances.... changed my life for the better in so many ways. My only peeve were the "pilgrims" along the way asking for money. This happened three times. It wouldn't have bugged me if their stories weren't so lame. 1) a german man in logroño saying his credit cards were cut up in Santiago and he was trying to get to the embassy in Madrid (wrong way dude!)

I ran into this clown too, around the second week of May. Had a couple more "pilgrims" trying the same thing and a handy "no comprende" came in handy.

I would happily help a legitimate pilgrim, but these clowns just didn't "smell" right. They were always walking in the opposite direction, probably to increase the number of pilgrims that they would run in to.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Money is so very important. It gives us power. It makes us into judges and juries.
I think it is sometimes imperative to step outside our "pilgrim" persona and see the beggars as simply people. Fellow humans who are needy enough to put aside their pride and ask for help. I daresay there are few pilgrims who cannot afford to give up some change.
If you are a pilgrim, are you so attached to your money, after all?
Even if this is a grifter with a "lame" story, will it hurt you to give him something?
I have done both things -- kept my money, and given it away. I assure you that giving even a little bit leaves you with a lot more peace.
(It is interesting that the OP, even after finishing a pilgrimage and going home, says that being asked for money is what sticks in her craw. I assume she did not give anything to the people who asked. As the thread moves on, the beggars are judged for walking the trail in reverse, for their stories, for their responses to rejection -- they are judged not worthy of pilgrims' charity. Hmm. I sure hope I never lose my credit card, or come up short someday while walking the trail!)

 

[oursonpolaire]

Some years ago I was walking through downtown Ottawa, where there are a few beggars and panhandlers, and was walking with a retired cleric and confessed that I really never quite knew what to do as, while I was a soft touch, had trouble figuring how how to deal with a raft of them. He just told me not to worry, and to listen carefully, and I would know what to do. Since then, I've listened and had no trouble. In Camino terms, I usually prefer to buy a lunch or a sandwich than give away money, but I've done that as well. I never respond well to aggressive tactics, professionally, or personally, and so an aggressive panhandler just gets to see me walk away, but that is perhaps a failing on my part.

A further failing is that I would love to use my ASL with the scam girls....

 

[Stephen]

Leaving a bar in Pamplona a while back a beggar approached me. He was a small stout man, nearly as broad as he was tall, and his face told the tale of a lifetime of drinking. I've hardly any Spanish but I think I recognised the word 'cambio'. I shrugged my shoulders and walked on a few paces before stopping and turning back to him. I gave him a 5 euro note and I'm ashamed to say he made to kiss my hand.
I've had my own problems with alcohol in the past and maybe in the back of my mind was the thought that there but for the grace of God...

 

[jgore555]

Say yes or no to them, and don't let the decision bother you ever again.

 

[bjorgts]

Thank you, Rebekah!
Bjorg

 

[newfydog]

A camino without beggars and thiefs would not be an authentic pilgrimage. They are part of a long tradition.

 

[DurhamParish]

Well stated Rebekah. You eloquently put into words a true statement of charity. While I was working, our group volunteered once a week in a women's homeless shelter and I found out that the face of poverty is rarely what we think it should be.

You stated that money gives us power and turns us into judges and juries (what a powerful and accurate statement, one I won't soon forget). In that same vein, it does make us judges and juries as to what we feel is the best use of these funds that we choose to give to our fellow humans who are in need. I've never liked to give to aggressive pan-handlers. I've known situations where the aggressive ones are not far away from causing intimidation and threats of violence. I worry not only for myself, but even more for some of the single female pilgrims who I knew that were approached by the same guy. If my refusal to give an aggressive pan-handler a bit of money contributes to that person finding the real help that they need and to stop their destructive ways; along with removing an intimidating and destructive threat to the camino, then more the better.

 

[Daxzentzu]

Maybe we should revisit James 2 for illumination here too.


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[annelise]

All good thoughts and advice around here. – Personally, I try to discern between needy persons and scammers/(panhandlers?) but not always too easy. I guess it will be some kind of gut-feeling kicking in. But I never met it on the Camino Frances.

However, when travelling in Mexico, I would sometimes try to discretely 'cram' a sometimes rather high note into the hand of what I deemed to one in need (and the 'discretely cramming' was because I didn't wish to see others around 'trying to relieve' the receiver of the note).

At one time – in Mexico City – when my son and I were hurrying towards a restaurant, we saw an obviously poor peasant sitting very discretely on the pavement. But we were in a hurry. But at the restaurant, we had a serious discussion about why we had just passed him.

On the way back from the restaurant – on passing him again – we left him a rather high note – and passed on. A short moment after, he came running after us to thank us profusely.
annelise

 

[Olivares]

We are told by the masters of every religion to give to the poor.
They don't specify which ones.
Whenever someone asks me for money, I give him whatever change is in my pocket. I never run short.
Life is too short to judge the motives of the people who are just asking for scraps. That could so easily be me someday.

I give to the poor (in more ways than one!) and never really needed any "Master" to tell me to...so I think am good there I just don't hand it out on the streets. Very simple.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

A camino without beggars and thiefs would not be an authentic pigrimage. They are part of a long tradition.

So were smallpox and dysentery!

I'll take a little bit of modernity.

 

[Kanga]

Personal charity is a lovely (literally) thing and Rebekah is right, money does turn us into judges and juries.

Charity does not challenge the causes of poverty. The aim should not be to reinforce the status quo when we appease our consciences momentarily.

I question giving alms that reinforces a bad situation or makes things worse. I know people ruined by being given money when what is really needed is a different form of help.

Charity that is simply an abdication of responsibility is not real charity. If I ever come across those "deaf" girls I will be trying to find out why they are scamming and what can be done to put them in a better situation.

If everyone who walks the Camino gives freely and generously to all who ask - how will the Camino look in a couple of years? How will it change the structures that cause poverty? How will it benefit the givers and the receivers?

 

[Leaniamath]

I genuinely ran out of money in Belorado because I had to pay a dinner bill for a pilgrim in our group who accidentally forgot to pay. By the time I got to San Juan I realized I had to get to Burgos or I wouldn't eat. A very kind pilgrim from my country have me $20 euros in case I didn't make it to Burgos ( 4 new blisters) so...please remember...the Camino gives and takes..I will mail this generous pilgrim all his money back with a very greatful thank you note!


Sent from my iPhone using Camino de Santiago Forum

 

[bystander]

It is a folly of modern society to think that throwing money at a problem, anywhere in the world, helps.
It, generally, exacerbates that problem and seldom provides a solution.
When someone is genuinely in need you need to find out why they are in need and how you can help them.
Affection, advice, direction.....are all better than money
BUT when you have people (panhandlers, faux pelerins, mendicants) touching on pilgrims on the CdF and elsewhere then you will create people who will become of a more cynical disposition and therefore, less likely, to be generous.
I have just looked through the cast of people in Chaucer's "The Canterbury Tales" it ranges in rank from the Knight through the Wife of Bath down to the humble monk.
But nowhere is there a mention of a Mendicant....

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Wow, when I lose my wallet on the camino, I will be sure to go a long way on all that affection, advice, and direction!

The camino is becoming noticeably more harsh these days, and it is not because of too many people asking for help.
I think it´s because of too many people, for whatever reason, are unwilling to offer any.

 

[Kanga]

Wow, when I lose my wallet on the camino, I will be sure to go a long way on all that affection, advice, and direction!

The camino is becoming noticeably more harsh these days, and it is not because of too many people asking for help.
I think it´s because of too many people, for whatever reason, are unwilling to offer any.

Reb, if you lose your wallet I'll be lending you money.

If you feel depressed, read Rachael's blog today (Kiwi-family). It's beautiful.

 

[simply B]

Ummm, yeah... here's the deal.

Do I have some portion of money that I can give where I discern a need...and sometimes when I just cannot be sure? "Yes"

Do I have the gift of discernment, during a brief encounter, to establish what advice and direction a soul needs? "No....I have the EQ (emotional quotient) of a fence post."

Can I give affection? "Absolutely - but it is an extra free service. A warmed heart cools rapidly without a roof and nourishment."

Lots of good thoughts in this thread. I see opportunities for enlightenment. I hope that readers can strike a balance between being as canny as possible with getting cynical.

Me? I'll continue to take the risk of being considered an idiot on occasion with loose change. Been to a lot of funerals the last 15 years... haven't seen a luggage rack on a hearse yet.

B

 

[bystander]

Rebekah, you are being a bit harsh on me when you said, in reply, to my comment
"Wow, when I lose my wallet on the camino, I will be sure to go a long way on all that affection, advice, and direction!"
For I had earlier said
"When someone is genuinely in need you need to find out why they are in need and how you can help them."
pax

 

[Rebekah Scott]

sorry, I don´t mean to hurt your feelings.
I have thought long and deep about gifts and giving, seeing as I am so often on the receiving end of pilgrims´ largesse (or lack thereof). And when the stakes are so small and individual, I believe in giving without any strings. Otherwise, it stops being a gift, and turns into a transaction. Or a handout.
Just keep it simple. Give him some change, and let it go at that. What he does with it is not a concern.

 

[DurhamParish]

Give him some change, and let it go at that. What he does with it is not a concern.

I recall one day after work being in line to catch the bus home from the city. A person came up to me and asked for some money and I gave them some. That person went directly to the liquor store just a few feet away. One of the ladies behind me said "Look, he took your money and is going in the liquor store to buy a drink." I laughed and told her, who was I to judge, the first thing I was going to do when I got home was pour myself a glass of wine.

 

[Metropolly]

There are signs on the London Underground advising passengers not to give to beggars, but to donate their money to organised charities instead. When I see those signs I always think their primary purpose is to relieve us of the responsibility of deciding whether or not to give cash to the beggar, and therefore to relieve us of the guilt we feel if we refuse. It's the guilty nagging feeling that makes us feel bad, and we try to justify our 'bad' behaviour by blaming the person we refused to help.
On a lighter note, years ago when I was a scruffy ragged student I was once mistaken for a beggar on the Underground, when all I was doing was asking directions. I went up to a smart City type, saying: 'Excuse me, which w...'.
'No, I haven't got any change,' he said, hurrying past.
I've always made more of an effort with my clothes since then... except on the Camino

 

[MichaelSG]

A camino without beggars and thiefs would not be an authentic pilgrimage. They are part of a long tradition.

So were smallpox and dysentery!

Ahhhhhh! Those were the days!!

 

[Daxzentzu]

I am working in India now.

Many people would categorise this place as being full of beggars.

That's not so - it's true there is a massive divide between those who have and those who haven't. and I do see hungry people who ask for help.

In India, charity is a duty. Very often at times of great sadness or celebration a family or a person will donate their own weight in rice and give for example to an orphanage for abandoned babies such as in the Sassoon Hospital - if you are heavy boned like me that will feed 100 people for a month.

I have observed that the important thing, is that they do it quietly and without looking for accolades.

It used to be like that, back home, when we read our bibles and we understood that thinking good thoughts and doing your best, "living a good life" is not enough - I think that we have an obligation to do good works - I think that there is no better time or place than on the Way of St James.

What a gift the camino is!



Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[MichaelSG]

Dax, what part of India are you in? I have always been inundated by beggars in Delhi, Mumbai & Calcutta. Stopping at a traffic light, the car gets surrounded. Step out of the car (or guest house) and you will be approached by several people every hundred meters. Visit a tourist site and you get a free 20-hand massage. There seems to be much fewer in rest of India, at least that I have been to so I always get out of the big three cities a.s.a.p.

And now, back to the Camino....

 

[Daxzentzu]

Pune in Maharashtra is where I am but I am not a tourist with a freshly scrubbed pink face and expensive watch on my wrist


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[MichaelSG]

That may save you from the hordes but it doesn't make them disappear. They have all run over to my way.

 

[Daxzentzu]

Not sure why it's not me they aim for maybe I look like I need their charity
They are really generous in mind and in material ways, both


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[sternenstrasse]

... Just watch your pockets while you fill in that form...

BTW: There is no need to fill in forms, leave your addresses etc wherever you drop a Euro. Doing this anonymously has quite a healthy side effect on one's ego... ;-)

 

[Cejanus]

and he said to them "... there is greater happiness in giving than in receiving."

 

[paladycamino]

I am on the camino now and have not been approached but I will use the same motto I do at home and that is if I want to give I will and then I need to not worry about what they do with the donation it is they who have face their maker not I

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I know some people here are way beyond taking instruction from "masters," but here I go again:

"Little acts of kindness push at the great big darkness around us. The darkness is so huge we feel helpless... and so we do nothing. And we try to make ourselves feel good about it. This is a heart problem. We do not lack resources or opportunity. We lack heart.
When we allow ourselves to do nothing because we cannot do everything, we demonstrate this "heart problem" by failing to see and come close to those we can help."
--- "Radical Hospitality," by Herman and Pratt.

 

[jpflavin1]

I have done a fair bit of traveling in my life. Nowhere have I seen more generosity, kindness, sharing, etc.,etc. etc. than on the Camino.

My friends and others I have engaged in Camino conversations often ask why I walk. One of those reasons is, that often, I see mankind functioning at it's best.

The Camino is one place where my glass is more than half full.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[sternenstrasse]

My experience is that the camino is a place where unexpected things happen and unexpected help is provided, if you walk with an open heart and an open mind. People asking for money etc. are asking you to make a personal decision about how do you want to face yourself in the mirror at the end of the day?

Every morning, when I'm leaving the albergue and heading West, my shadow is -- again -- in front of me. At the end of the day it only appears to have moved behind me. Special encounters like the ones with people in need (or simulating) can mean a real confrontation with my shadow!

 

[saltwaterpearl]

Maybe the Camino is noticeably harsher because many who walk are looking for a cheap walking holiday and nothing more.

Even those looking for "spirituality" aren't looking to follow religious teachings.

Kanga,
Do you realize how offensive this sounds?

First, putting "spirituality" in quotes (and only spirituality, not "religious teachings") like that appears very condescending.

But more importantly, it sounds like you are asserting that the Camino is harsher these days because there are less followers of religious teachings (Christians?) walking it? As if only those religious folk are capable of being generous and good-hearted?

It should go without saying that there are plenty of kind, lovely, generous people in the world - and on the Camino - who are not religious and/or spiritual.

Just as there is no shortage of religious types who are stingy, mean-spirited and judgemental.

Religion hasn't cornered the market on morality, ethics or general good behavior.

I do hope that is not what you intended to convey in your comment.

 

[Kanga]

Oh dear, I wasn't intending to offend and of course, you are right.
Some of the most moral, kind people I know are atheists - who act for the betterment of humanity. They are innately good or know that is the way for human flourishing.
For those who don't develop a grown-up conscience, an inner moral view of the world, at least religion puts a "headmaster" inside them which directs them towards behaving well - although wars have been fought when this goes wrong.
I'll edit or delete the post.

 

[saltwaterpearl]

Oh dear, I wasn't intending to offend. Some of the most moral, kind people I know are atheists - who act for the betterment of humanity. They are innately good or know that is the way for human flourishing. I do think there are selfish self-centric people who go looking for experiences without any intellectual, moral or ethical connection.
I will delete the post.

Thank you for your response - I am glad I misunderstood!

 

[Jabaldo]

We are told by the masters of every religion to give to the poor.
They don't specify which ones.
Whenever someone asks me for money, I give him whatever change is in my pocket. I never run short.
Life is too short to judge the motives of the people who are just asking for scraps. That could so easily be me someday.

I agree. God has blessed me so I give at home and on the street. The angle of God who is in need at that time just might with my help be able to get out of his immediate problem have a meal and look to help someone. One never knows who is in front of his asking for help. Are we being tested?

 

[wayfarer]

I was loth to inter this thread because they rarely end well, but here is my tuppence worth: My mother, God rest her, always said when we encountered beggars, drunks and other unfortunates, always remember, there go I but for the Grace of God. With this always in mind I give what I can, what they choose to do with it after is their business.

 

[annelise]

I was loth to inter this thread because they rarely end well, but here is my tuppence worth: My mother, God rest her, always said when we encountered beggars, drunks and other unfortunates, always remember, there go I but for the Grace of God. With this always in mind I give what I can, what they choose to do with it after is their business.

Wayfarer, I think you said it all. I wish I could like your post several times over.

annelise

 

[Jabaldo]

Agree

I was loth to inter this thread because they rarely end well, but here is my tuppence worth: My mother, God rest her, always said when we encountered beggars, drunks and other unfortunates, always remember, there go I but for the Grace of God. With this always in mind I give what I can, what they choose to do with it after is their business.

 

[Jabaldo]

I don't understand why there is such a fuss about giving or not giving to those who are asking. Does it really matter if the person asking is scamming or not. If he his then he will have the problem when he is in front of God on judgment day, if he is not then when we are standing in front of God on judgment day, God will reward us for helping his children as he command's. I do not see any issue here at all. Give if you wish and don't give if you chose. This is what God gave us freedom of choice.
I do agree with most of what I read there is a part of me ask is this guy for real or should I not give? That to me is my own personnel devil that I have to slay.
God Bless you all and thank you for the conversation. It has been interesting.

 

[wawpdx]

I hesitate to say this because I am not yet stepping up to the plate, but .... How do we reconcile the financial investment that enables us to walk the Camino? That's my dilemma. For me it is not about the one Euro or five Euro. It is about all the money I have chosen to spend on boots, other boots, different boots, a pack, a lighter pack, a rain poncho, a better rain poncho, a sleeping bag, sleep sack, clothing, poles, air fare/train/lodging for wherever I begin or finish walking.

I would be afraid to add it all up from over the years. But someday I feel the need to do that. And then. And then what. I know the real answer is Walk your own Camino, you will know, but I wonder how other people weigh the luxury of our time on Camino. Do you have a mental give back plan?

 

[Tia Valeria]

There are so many ways to 'give back'. It could be your time, maybe helping or encouraging other pilgrims or would be pilgrims. It could be financial, supporting a pilgrim who could not walk without a gift to help with fares, or a gift of the 'extra' gear. It could be by giving a tithe (10% biblically) of what you spend either in total or on what you perceive as extras. Many choices, no right or wrong answer, but an aim to serve others in some way as a pilgrim can only be good, before/during/after ones own pilgrimage.

 

[malingerer]

There is a series of books written by a priest from Buffalo NY. The one book I remember is one called Joshua. My son who's name is Joshua gave it to me for Christmas many years ago. I read the book. It is about Christ returning to our current world in many forms. As a simple person, as a beggar. He came back and was looking for a hand out from many people. Most people turned him away, those who could afford it the most. Then Christ asked a man who was also down and out, this man of course shared with Christ what he had, as little as it was. Christ then revealed himself to the man who life from that point changed for the better. My point is that we are all the children of Christ. You never know who the beggar might be.

there is an old irish saying which resonates with this
"often often"
cries the lark
"goes the Christ
in the stranger's guise"
In our wealth obsessed society we must beware the hardening heart.

the malingerer.

 

[AnnieY]

I don't fear being labeled a sucker. I fear owning a hardened heart. When I was a young mother and very poor, I prayed (and worked) for enough money to live well and give well. The money it takes for me to travel proves that I finally have more than enough. Sharing a few bucks can't hurt me, and it doesn't really matter if its a scam. Because at the end of the day, I still have more than enough - and that is a prayer answered.

totally agree with your heartfelt message

 

[AnnieY]

there is an old irish saying which resonates with this
"often often"
cries the lark
"goes the Christ
in the stranger's guise"
In our wealth obsessed society we must beware the hardening heart.

the malingerer.

In the Jewish religion there is the belief that there are lamed vavniks, thirty six people who hold up the world in disguise, also Elijah who can appear often at our table in the form of the stranger who asks of our hospitality

 

[LesBrass]

... My mother, God rest her, always said when we encountered beggars, drunks and other unfortunates, always remember, there go I but for the Grace of God.

Wayfarer my mum used to say exactly the same... I've found myself repeating this to my son on numerous occasions... along with do as you would be done by - which was another of my mum's favourites.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Wayfarer my mum used to say exactly the same... I've found myself repeating this to my son on numerous occasions... along with do as you would be done by - which was another of my mum's favourites.

I would not beg. Where does that leave me? Prohibited from giving?

 

[Daxzentzu]

Teach us, good Lord,
to serve you as you deserve,
to give and not to count the cost,
to fight and not to heed the wounds,
to toil and not to seek for rest,
to labour and not to ask for any reward,
save that of knowing that we do your will.


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[Jabaldo]

I am really surprised with all the posting regarding giving to people in need. Giving is a personal choice. Being human and having free will given to us by God is what makes us human. I have been bless so many times that I don't take it for granted. I choose to give and give. I hope I am not sounding preachy. I am a person in need which is why I walk the Camino. I am walking for I need to re-center myself. I have been out of sorts for a few years dating back to a divorce almost 20 years now, a new marriage to a loving wife, being fired from the best job in the world and now retired feeling empty. So when you see me along the Camino please give to me for I am a pilgrim in need. God bless us all
Buen Camino

 

[Daxzentzu]

Wow!
What an insight that you share!
I hope that we, one day, meet, for I know that if I have the privilege to be able to empty my pockets and give you everything, all the coins and note that I possess - then it is me - that is I who is the beneficiary in this transaction and that you are the one who is giving, and it is such a gift to me.


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[bystander]

Matthew 7 KJV

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

 

[tictoc]

I ran into several young girls near villages with a charity sponser form asking me to sign and donate money for handicaped children, an obvious scam if ever I saw one, you know what I told them. And to them that will reply and critisize me, come on don't be so gullible.

 

[DurhamParish]

Amen!

 

[grayland]

Gently.....

Let us try to keep the thread open.
Please express your own opinions and let others do the same.

It is obvious that we do not all see these people in the same way.

 

[Daxzentzu]

It is your camino too


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[staciesthings]

I genuinely ran out of money in Belorado because I had to pay a dinner bill for a pilgrim in our group who accidentally forgot to pay. By the time I got to San Juan I realized I had to get to Burgos or I wouldn't eat. A very kind pilgrim from my country have me $20 euros in case I didn't make it to Burgos ( 4 new blisters) so...please remember...the Camino gives and takes..I will mail this generous pilgrim all his money back with a very greatful thank you note!


Sent from my iPhone using Camino de Santiago Forum

So this happened to me...a pilgrim walked out of a bar and two minutes later the owner/worker said. ... He didn't pay! So I paid the €2.50. I saw the guya couple of days later and told him the story and he absolutely knew that he paid for he and his friend! Two sides to every story. ... Just saying. ... It actually made me laugh. Btw.....I got scammed hard in Paris. .. They are professionals. Look up the top ten paris scams on Google..... They have the mute girls with the clipboards listed

 

[tictoc]

glad I was right about the clipboard girls, thanks

 

[bystander]

The Golden Rule

One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. (Directive form.)

One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated (Cautionary form, also known as the Silver Rule.)

One satirical version of the Golden Rule makes a political and economic point: "Whoever has the gold, makes the rules."

 

[Daxzentzu]

Ah!
Charles Kingsley - He ROCKS


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[Angelo]

I agree wholeheartedly with Jabaldo and Wayfarer especially verse 7. . Giving is a choice one has to make. I will give to the next pilgrim in need without hesitation. My conscience will guide me.

 

[Angelo]

Oops I meant Bystander's sage words

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I am a person in need which is why I walk the Camino. I am walking for I need to re-center myself. I have been out of sorts for a few years dating back to a divorce almost 20 years now, a new marriage to a loving wife, being fired from the best job in the world and now retired feeling empty. So when you see me along the Camino please give to me for I am a pilgrim in need.

You will save money taking the train (bus at the moment) to SJPdP instead of a taxi.

 

[anniethenurse]

Yes, all this talk about booking a taxi in advance from A to B when there are so many busses and trains every day and night all year around in the Basque Country if you want to reach Sjpp or any other city, airport or any other starting point. Save money and enjoy the moment looking at the scenery through a bus/ train window.

 

[Daxzentzu]

Oops a little disconnected here or did I miss something


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[dougfitz]

Oops a little disconnected here or did I miss something

I think there might have been a suggestion in another thread that someone was taking a taxi. Perhaps crying poor and catching a cab across the Pyrenees to start in SJPP aren't entirely consistent.

 

[Stephen]

Sitting having an alfresco meal outside one of the cafes near the cathedral I noticed a panhandler working his way along the tables. When he reached me I gave him a Euro. When he got to the top of the street he started working his way down it again. This time when he reached me I said, 'No cambio'. His two word malediction, the second of them being 'English', was particularly hurtful. I'm Irish.

 

[Metropolly]

I think there might have been a suggestion in another thread that someone was taking a taxi. Perhaps crying poor and catching a cab across the Pyrenees to start in SJPP aren't entirely consistent.

I may be wrong, but I think the 'needy' post being referred to here was meant to be tongue-in-cheek - the poster seemed to be saying all of us pilgrims are 'in need', but not all of us in need of cash - some of us need space, love, time and understanding. I understood the poster to be suggesting that, were any of us to meet him along the way, he would like generous donations of these things, rather than coins

 

[Angelo]

I was loth to inter this thread because they rarely end well, but here is my tuppence worth: My mother, God rest her, always said when we encountered beggars, drunks and other unfortunates, always remember, there go I but for the Grace of God. With this always in mind I give what I can, what they choose to do with it after is their business.

Amen to that!

 

[dougfitz]

I may be wrong, but I think the 'needy' post being referred to here was meant to be tongue-in-cheek - the poster seemed to be saying all of us pilgrims are 'in need', but not all of us in need of cash - some of us need space, love, time and understanding. I understood the poster to be suggesting that, were any of us to meet him along the way, he would like generous donations of these things, rather than coins

I was reflecting on someone else's interpretation of the earlier post, not advancing an interpretation of my own for @Jabaldo's post. I must admit I wasn't sure whether he was seeking spiritual or monetary donations when I first read his post, so I am equally happy with your alternative.

 

[Daxzentzu]

Is there a difference


Dax
In Pune, (a work in progress)

 

[DeliaClark]

Like another person posting here, I actually did run into financial need on my Camino. My husband's wallet had been stolen at home and he had cancelled his card, unknowingly also cancelling mine, which was my only way to get the cash I needed to pay for albergues and meals. Very long story short (once card situation was remedied, there was no ATM where I assumed there would be, quite infected blisters getting worse, next ATM another 23 k, and I'd already walked 9, feeling kind of desperate as my mom lost her legs to infection so I am overly worried) two of my fellow peregrinos offered to loan me the 20 euros I needed to be able to stop and rest. I could not have been more grateful, lit a candle for them with one of the euros. They said to pass it on to the next pilgrim in need, but I was lucky enough to run into them the next day after I'd restocked my cash and was able to pay them back. It became an important lesson for me - how impacted I was by this temporary poverty, contemplating what it would feel like if it were an enduring reality of my life, my gratitude toward this generous couple, ways I could pay it forward... One long walk with so many lessons!!