Pilgrim Office Pre Registration query

[Pathfinder075]

So I decided to pre register now, so i have less hassle later. But I have sort of an issue with the first drop down box. As some of you know my route this year is a bit complicated. I start in Santander and then do the Vadiniense, Salvador, then Camino do Mar, Ingles, probably the Finisterre camino and then get a compostella.

What "Way" do I use on the pre registration. "Otros Caminos" doesn't offer a suitable start point. Vadiniense or Lebaniego aren't in the Way drop down box either. Kind of perplexed. Want I think I want is Otros Caminos and Northern Spain as the start point, but that doesn't exist as far as I can see.

Any ideas?

 

[peregrina2000]

If you are talking about the compostela, and not the distance certificate, I don’t think it really matters. So long as you put in an acceptable starting point recognized by the Cathedral, you will get the compostela (assuming your credencial meets their expectations). The compostela doesn’t put anything about your starting place on the actual document, and I believe this information is relevant to the Cathedral primarily for purposes of statistics.

Maybe others have info about the Distance Certificate, but I’ve never gotten one, and I don’t know how the newly automated system deals with that.

 

[Pathfinder075]

Yes I was after both on this walk. I suppose I could use Norte for Way and then let them do the calcs for the rest. The reality is I will only be on the Norte for three days before I dive off.

 

[peregrina2000]

Yes I was after both on this walk. I suppose I could use Norte for Way and then let them do the calcs for the rest. The reality is I will only be on the Norte for three days before I dive off.

So was the information you were filling out online being done for purposes of the compostela, the distance certificate, or both?

 

[Pathfinder075]

Both.

I've done it and used Norte and Santander as the Way and Start point. I'm sure someone at the Pilgrim Office will be able to untangle it when I finish.

I'll do the second pre-reg when I get to Santiago. The second one is at least relatively straightforward.

 

[Robo]

So I decided to pre register now, so i have less hassle later. But I have sort of an issue with the first drop down box. As some of you know my route this year is a bit complicated. I start in Santander and then do the Vadiniense, Salvador, then Camino do Mar, Ingles, probably the Finisterre camino and then get a compostella.

What "Way" do I use on the pre registration. "Otros Caminos" doesn't offer a suitable start point. Vadiniense or Lebaniego aren't in the Way drop down box either. Kind of perplexed. Want I think I want is Otros Caminos and Northern Spain as the start point, but that doesn't exist as far as I can see.

Any ideas?

@peregrina2000 has addressed the Compostela.

If you want a distance certificate. I had a 'hybrid' route this year.
Seville to Astorga (VdlP, to Ponferrada (Frances) to Santiago (Invierno)

In the Pilgrim's Office they said they were not sure of the distance and asked me how far it was.
They put that distance. I think it was 1,060 or something.
I imagine it needs to be all a 'contiguous' walk though,
evidenced by your Credential.

I then went on to Fisterra & Muxia, but that doesn't count, as it's 'away' from Santiago.
I bussed back.

 

[Pathfinder075]

The contiguous bit might be problematic. I intend to grab a train from Oviedo to Ribadeo after I finish the Salvador. Maybe I will feel brilliant in Oviedo and decide to walk it. But the Aviles to Soto de Luina day is close to my daily limit at 39km and the day after wouldn't be much better. We shall see.

Thanks Robo. Your hybrid route seems quite an interesting one. An idea for next year maybe.

 

[dougfitz]

The contiguous bit might be problematic.

This happened to my wife and I when she got ill, and we skipped some sections, but walked from Sarria. The Pilgrim Office staff were excellent about this, carefully calculating the distances for the various legs of our journey for our distance certificates based on the official distances. It took a little time, but they could not have been more helpful about it.

 

[peregrina2000]

This happened to my wife and I when she got ill, and we skipped some sections, but walked from Sarria. The Pilgrim Office staff were excellent about this, carefully calculating the distances for the various legs of our journey for our distance certificates based on the official distances. It took a little time, but they could not have been more helpful about it.

Doug,

Does this mean that the Pilgrim’s Office does the work manually for the distance certificate even after automation? @pathfinder told me above that he was filling in information online for both the compostela and the distance certificate, but based on what you say, I’m wondering if the online info is only relevant for the compostela.

 

[Pathfinder075]

The form has a tick box that asks if you want the distance certificate. On this one I do. If I do the Ourense to Santiago one after I won't bother for that one.

From my reading of the pre reg the information given is irrelevant. It's probably used for stats and registering that you might turn up at the office around a certain date, but not much else. The Way box has a bunch of random routes on it, but it's only aimed at mainstream pilgrims. The second you walk a lesser route it no longer caters for you, add to that the fact a compostella doesn't say you walked from X to Y via Z. And as Robo and DougFitz said, the distance certificate is done on the fly.

But it is, what it is.

 

[dougfitz]

Doug,

Does this mean that the Pilgrim’s Office does the work manually for the distance certificate even after automation? @pathfinder told me above that he was filling in information online for both the compostela and the distance certificate, but based on what you say, I’m wondering if the online info is only relevant for the compostela.

No, this was done before the online registration process was implemented. I am not sure how much flexibility the Pilgrim Office staff have here. The online registration seems to be designed for what might be the clear majority of simple pilgrimages, and there will always be some exceptions that will need to be handled manually. I am expecting, although I cannot confirm, that they can still do that if asked.

It is also possible, given that they have some form of official distance database, for this to be done relatively quickly with the aid of that tool. I don't know whether that has been automated, but even without that, the arithmetic is not really all that complicated in my view - it should only require subtractions and additions.

 

[trecile]

Even if it's not contiguous I think that you can ask for the distance certificate - it's really just a memento for you to mark this journey, so I doubt that the pilgrims office cares. Keep track of your distances and they will write that figure in for you as they did for @Robo .

If you have the time why not walk from Oviedo to the Norte and split up the Avilés to Soto de Luina stage?

 

[Pathfinder075]

I've kind of worked it out and I can do Oviedo to Ribadeo in five days and that's probably what I will do.

The reason I wanted to do it quickly is I see the Norte as a transition to my real route. Also I want to head down on to the VdlP and finish something I failed to finish in 2017, which has been bugging me ever since. So i want to spend a week on VdlP if I can and get that bit finished off. Basically I want all Camino related activities to be done by the end of the second week in October so i can go off and do holiday things, such as visit the archaeological site (and hot springs) at Bande and maybe go climb at one of the Via Ferrata sites in the Picos for a couple of days. Then back home.

While I feel like by doing Camino del Mar I am rushing things a bit, I will get to do something similar to the Vadiniense, a path less walked and see something different. Maybe get the odd night camping on the cliff tops with exquisite views. I've walked parts of the Frances a couple of times and the VdlP, this year is more about doing something new.

 

[lt56ny]

Doug,

Does this mean that the Pilgrim’s Office does the work manually for the distance certificate even after automation? @pathfinder told me above that he was filling in information online for both the compostela and the distance certificate, but based on what you say, I’m wondering if the online info is only relevant for the compostela.

This happened to my wife and I when she got ill, and we skipped some sections, but walked from Sarria. The Pilgrim Office staff were excellent about this, carefully calculating the distances for the various legs of our journey for our distance certificates based on the official distances. It took a little time, but they could not have been more helpful about it.

Two years ago I was standing in line with someone who walked 3 different routes. I don't remember which ones but I know he had to bus from the end of one to the beginning of another. He wanted a distance certificate. I waited for him because he and I were going to the same albergue, Albergue Blanco.
(I recommend it):
https://www.gronze.com/galicia/coruna/santiago-compostela/albergue-blanco
It took him a few minutes to come out but he said that the distance certificate desk was super nice and helpful and figured out how far he had walked. Very similar to the experience of Doug's wife.

 

[t2andreo]

When registering in advance online, you need to indicate WHICH Camino Route you will end at Santiago de Compostela on. As you only qualify for a Compostela for walking the FINAL 100 km on any recognized Camino THAT ENDS AT THE CATHEDRAL - Tomb of Santiago - it does not matter how many "higgly-piggly" routes you walked all over Europe.

The aggregate distance also does not matter for the Compostela. It only factors in, after the fact, for the Certificate of Distance. If your situation is too complicated for the app, then wait until you arrive at the Pilgrim Office, so the staff can sort your specific issues out.

The app and the advance registration setup is intended for the 99.99% of pilgrims who start at one place, and walk one or two solo or overlaid Caminos, ending at the Cathedral.

Examples of the multiple Caminos combining might be: the Aragones, flowing into the Frances, the Primitivo flowing into the Frances, the VDLP flowing into either the Frances at Astorga or Sanabres after Zamora. You arrival is noted on the FINAL Camino route you entered Santiago on, not the one or many routes you took to get there.

What matters to the software, and the Pilgrim Office staff is the final 100 km, on an officially recognized route. You cannot, for example finish at Finisterre, then hop over to Santiago to ask for a Compostela. YOU MUST have finished your Camino at Santiago, and you must have walked the final 100 km into Plaza Obradoiro.

I hope this aptly clarifies matters.

Tom

 

[Pathfinder075]

It does. Well I did it wrong then. I should have put Ingles.

So if you walked into SdC on the Frances after doing Norte or Primitivo, you would put Frances as your route, as that is the final leg of those routes? If so, why when selecting Way do they offer say Camino del Mar, which doesn't end in SdC?

I might redo it and use Camino del Mar, as I would prefer it was logged in the stats as finishing via that route.

 

[SureFtWayEli]

If you are talking about the compostela, and not the distance certificate, I don’t think it really matters. So long as you put in an acceptable starting point recognized by the Cathedral, you will get the compostela (assuming your credencial meets their expectations). The compostela doesn’t put anything about your starting place on the actual document, and I believe this information is relevant to the Cathedral primarily for purposes of statistics.

Maybe others have info about the Distance Certificate, but I’ve never gotten one, and I don’t know how the newly automated system deals with that.

Yes, I agree about the reason being statistics.

 

[trecile]

It took him a few minutes to come out but he said that the distance certificate desk was super nice and helpful and figured out how far he had walked

When I walked my Francés-Salvador-Norte-Finisterre Camino I got a distance certificate. The volunteer in the pilgrims office asked me which route I had walked, I started to tell him, and I could see that he wasn't looking forward to calculating the distance. He looked relieved when I told him that I had been keeping track, and wrote in the number that I gave him.

I might redo it and use Camino del Mar, as I would prefer it was logged in the stats as finishing via that route.

That's a great idea.

 

[HumanistHiker]

I received my Credencial del Peregrino along with a copy of the Wise Pilgrim Camino Portugues book from the forum shop today.

Do you have to pre-register in order to be able to get a Compostela at the end (assuming you've walked enough km)? Do you have to use the QR code or is there a website? (I was expecting more Latin, not a QR code on the Credencial!)

 

[trecile]

Do you have to pre-register in order to be able to get a Compostela at the end (assuming you've walked enough km)? Do you have to use the QR code or is there a website?

It speeds up the process if you pre-register. Here's the webpage for registration:

Sigle Register | Pilgrim's welcome office

oficinadelperegrino.com

 

[HumanistHiker]

Thanks Trecile. I see the website asks for "motivation" - religious, non-religious, other. Does the answer to that question determine whether you receive a "Compostela" proper or the other certificate (which I'm sure another post said had more or less stopped being used) as my understanding was that strictly speaking one had to have a religious motivation for the pilgrimage to be worthy of a Compostela proper? Or is it more just a statistical data collection exercise?

 

[trecile]

. I see the website asks for "motivation" - religious, non-religious, other. Does the answer to that question determine whether you receive a "Compostela" proper or the other certificate

That's a good question, there was a discussion about this recently with no firm answer.

Or is it more just a statistical data collection exercise?

That would be my guess.

 

[alexwalker]

Thanks Trecile. I see the website asks for "motivation" - religious, non-religious, other. Does the answer to that question determine whether you receive a "Compostela" proper or the other certificate (which I'm sure another post said had more or less stopped being used) as my understanding was that strictly speaking one had to have a religious motivation for the pilgrimage to be worthy of a Compostela proper? Or is it more just a statistical data collection exercise?

For the Compostela: Religious or spiritual.

 

[trecile]

For the Compostela: Religious or spiritual.

These are the options on the registration page. What happens when you choose Not Religious or Others?

 

[alexwalker]

These are the options on the registration page. What happens when you choose Not Religious or Others?

View attachment 154811

Distance certificate.

 

[trecile]

Distance certificate.

Do they no longer issue the "welcome certificate?"

 

[Ernie Fraser]

If you are talking about the compostela, and not the distance certificate, I don’t think it really matters. So long as you put in an acceptable starting point recognized by the Cathedral, you will get the compostela (assuming your credencial meets their expectations). The compostela doesn’t put anything about your starting place on the actual document, and I believe this information is relevant to the Cathedral primarily for purposes of statistics.

Maybe others have info about the Distance Certificate, but I’ve never gotten one, and I don’t know how the newly automated system deals with that.

 

[Ernie Fraser]

This reflects my experience last fall. For the distance certificate I was credited only for the Camino Invierno even though we started in Astorga and walked three days on the Frances.

 

[Pathfinder075]

Do they no longer issue the "welcome certificate?"

On the other thread someone (maybe @Bradypus or @t2andreo) mentioned they still do those, but not very many per year. So walking for non religious or spiritual reasons should get you the welcome certificate and honestly the thing I would want in that situation is the certificate of distance. If you like walking, then distance and enjoying the path is the achievement for some of us.

My first one will be a contiguous 846.7km, according to Gronze and @Dave 's figures in his PDF for the del Mar.

If you want to do a camino, but have someone elses name on the compostella, do you just pre register under a different name? I mean as in to dedicate it to someone else. I want to do this for my second camino. The one from Ourense (or somewhere on the VdlP depending on time left for walking).

 

[C clearly]

If you want to do a camino, but have someone elses name on the compostella, do you just pre register under a different name?

Read this thread for some information on how to dedicate your camino to a deceased person (or possible, if think, to someone who cannot walk themselves).

 

[Pathfinder075]

Thanks.

 

[Kathor1]

I see the website asks for "motivation" - religious, non-religious, other. Does the answer to that question determine whether you receive a "Compostela" proper or the other certificate (which I'm sure another post said had more or less stopped being used) as my understanding was that strictly speaking one had to have a religious motivation for the pilgrimage to be worthy of a Compostela proper? Or is it more just a statistical data collection exercise?

Forum members who had volunteered at the Pilgrim Office this year (2023) have all confirmed that there is no longer a distinction being made between the various motivations indicated in the online registration form: every applicant receives a Compostela and those who have additionally ticked the box ”Print mileage certificate” will also get the Distance Certificate.

Fact: The volunteers do not see the information about your motivation on their screen. They will not question you about your motivation. The computer system does not signal or process in any way what you have chosen, other than for statistical purposes.

Buen Camino!

 

[Kathor1]

Do you have to pre-register in order to be able to get a Compostela at the end (assuming you've walked enough km)? Do you have to use the QR code or is there a website?

Just to clarify: Pre-register is a misnomer. You register your data by filling in an online form. Everyone who wishes to get a Compostela needs to do this: either on their mobile phone, tablet or computer or at a kiosk at the pilgrim office.

You can do it any time and from anywhere. You need an internet connection unless you use the kiosks. It is obviously best to do it before you go to the Pilgrim’s office.

The QR code in the credencial is nothing other than the web address (url) of the online registration form. Your mobile phone can read it. It saves you having to type it manually into your phone.

Buen Camino to all who will be walking soon.

 

[Kathor1]

As a forum community, we ought to make greater efforts to provide up to date information, especially when it is so easy to verify. Facts:

- In the credencial issued by the Cathedral, there is no option where you pick and indicate a motivation or reason for your camino. Years ago, there was an option that said culture/sports or similar in Spanish. Go to the Forum Store and look at the current credencial.

- In the registration form which is online and interactive, there is no mention of spiritual as an optional reason for your camino. The current options are: not religious, others, religious - in this alphabetical order. Pick what you think makes the most sense to you. Go to the Pilgrim Office website and look at the registration form. Select options under the different menu points to verify what you believe to be accurate before you post.

- The volunteers do not see all the private data on their screen that you have entered into the online registration form. They do not see what you entered as reason for your camino. @JennyH94 who volunteered this summer 2023 and worked at the desks has helpfully told us in this post what they see.

 

[Pathfinder075]

As a forum community, we ought to make greater efforts to provide up to date information, especially when it is so easy to verify. Facts:

- In the credencial issued by the Cathedral, there is no option where you pick and indicate a motivation or reason for your camino. Years ago, there was an option that said culture/sports or similar in Spanish. Go to the Forum Store and look at the current credencial.

- In the registration form which is online and interactive, there is no mention of spiritual as an optional reason for your camino. The current options are: not religious, others, religious - in this alphabetical order. Pick what you think makes the most sense to you. Go to the Pilgrim Office website and look at the registration form. Select options under the different menu points to verify what you believe to be accurate before you post.

- The volunteers do not see all the private data on their screen that you have entered into the online registration form. They do not see what you entered as reason for your camino. @JennyH94 who volunteered this summer 2023 and worked at the desks has helpfully told us in this post what they see.

There is a FAQ on this forum, although it seems to be overly bloated. Maybe ask Ivar if a new subforum can be created in it, that can be moderated by people who volunteer/work in the pilgrims office and then create a list of the current information, plus make it read only. Discussions should happen elsewhere, the FAQ is generally a read only list of questions and answers to common questions.

I will admit I did go to the FAQ first and look, but it's a mess of threads and no indexing system. Ideally I want to go to a stickied thread with a list of topics then use that to navigate to the question I am interested in. But none was available and the FAQ threads were very random. So if there was a thread that stated Tom's answer, or maybe an image with a number for each box and a dumbed down answer for each part, sort of like a visual reference on how to fill it in. Make it comprehensive but also easy to find. So a thread that states, "How to fill in the Pilgrim Office Pre Registraion Form correctly", with a short guide. Then lock it and only allow those that actually volunteer at the office to edit it.

 

[Kathor1]

@Pathfinder075, do you really think it is so important? Every month, thousands and thousands of peregrin@s, most of whom have never heard of this forum, manage just fine to fill in the registration form and get their Compostela and the Distance Certificate with the distance in km on it that they desire.

The system appears to work amazingly well - what dire predictions we could read at the time when it was first introduced, little of it happened. People appear to be able to figure out what they need to pick as their menu option, despite some puzzlement because the design could be smoothed a bit more and there could be indeed a bit of an explanation next to some of the boxes.

I know only one volunteer on the forum with extensive and recent hands-on knowledge of the current IT system for Compostelas and that forum member does not post often.

We just like to chat here.

 

[Pathfinder075]

Yes I'm being overly picky. I suppose coming from an IT background where documentation has to be done correctly, 100% of the time, I get irked at other things that aren't. It was just a thought anyway.

Ideally this would have been done in the code on the pre reg page, but for whatever reason it wasn't. But someone elses project/problem.

 

[Kathor1]

I suppose coming from an IT background where documentation has to be done correctly, 100% of the time, I get irked at other things that aren't

Write to them. Make clear and short suggestions for improving user usability. I wrote to them several times when the translations from Spanish were simply atrocious. I don't think that they changed anything because of me. I'd like to think that more and more people pointed out areas of improvement and they finally improved the translation of the menu points. It took years.

 

[Kathor1]

coming from an IT background

Why are you then not like me and just try things out by clicking around?

So there are 19 camino options in the online form. One of them is Otros Caminos. You click on it and then see that there is a quite eclectic but limited number of Start of the way starting points that belong to this menu option. Most of these starting points turn out to be not suitable for your purposes.

So you turn to the other options for Caminos. Interesting, there is a Camino Olvidado now and a Camino San Salvador. You look at the starting points that the systems offers for each of the two and you think, hm, that's a little weird or you think, fine, that fits. You look at the French Way options and the starting points associated with it and you see that you are spoilt for choices although they are not very systematically organised.

You learn that for your Compostela it does not matter much whether there is a perfect fit between what you walked and what you can pick in the way of menu options. Pick what seems to be a fairly ok-ish fit.

You learn that you can discuss with the staff or volunteers at the Pilgrim's Office what you'd like to see on your Distance Certificate. They will try to respond to your wishes. You will try to be helpful from your side and present them with the distance in km that you have walked in those cases where you walked a potpourri of caminos.

What more does one need to know?

 

[t2andreo]

It does. Well I did it wrong then. I should have put Ingles.

So if you walked into SdC on the Frances after doing Norte or Primitivo, you would put Frances as your route, as that is the final leg of those routes? If so, why when selecting Way do they offer say Camino del Mar, which doesn't end in SdC?

I might redo it and use Camino del Mar, as I would prefer it was logged in the stats as finishing via that route.

I suspect you can choose Camino del Mar because the only way to end at Santiago is to walk another contiguous route that does end in Santiago.

I think it is the same thing as saying you walked the Camino Aragones. Everyone knows it ends at Puenta la Reina. But, you cannot arrive at Santiago unless you follow the Camino Frances the rest of the way from Puenta la Reina.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[t2andreo]

Yes I'm being overly picky. I suppose coming from an IT background where documentation has to be done correctly, 100% of the time, I get irked at other things that aren't. It was just a thought anyway.

Ideally this would have been done in the code on the pre reg page, but for whatever reason it wasn't. But someone elses project/problem.

The techies who programmed this function were most likely not from the best IT firms in SIlicon Valley, or the equivalent in Spain, or in Europe. More likely than not, they were from a small local code shop, or even a staff member who worked at the Cathedral in some capacity. That is just how things are done.

I do not say this to disparage anyone. The archdiocese / cathedral / Pilgrim Office staff are VERY clever at developing solutions to problems. But, I also know from direct experience, while volunteering there, that the term "beta test" is unknown to them. Once they find something that seems to work, they typically will go live. Sometimes the staff are getting pressure from on-high to "do something already" - like yesterday - to address a felt problem. That might explain some of the "oopsies" that we are collectively noticing.

Be patient. Over time, they will sort things out. That was one of my other seminal takeaway lessons from nearly 10 years volunteering. things get done when they get done. At this point in the season, I rather suspect that the next version of the online application will debut next spring.

Anything that the app cannot handle, can be handled when you arrive. Just remember to speak up, as they do not have crystal balls.

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

[C clearly]

There is a FAQ on this forum, although it seems to be overly bloated. Maybe ask Ivar if a new subforum can be created in it, that can be moderated by people who volunteer/work in the pilgrims office and then create a list of the current information, plus make it read only. Discussions should happen elsewhere, the FAQ is generally a read only list of questions and answers to common questions.

I will admit I did go to the FAQ first and look, but it's a mess of threads and no indexing system. Ideally I want to go to a stickied thread with a list of topics then use that to navigate to the question I am interested in. But none was available and the FAQ threads were very random. So if there was a thread that stated Tom's answer, or maybe an image with a number for each box and a dumbed down answer for each part, sort of like a visual reference on how to fill it in. Make it comprehensive but also easy to find. So a thread that states, "How to fill in the Pilgrim Office Pre Registraion Form correctly", with a short guide. Then lock it and only allow those that actually volunteer at the office to edit it.

Thanks for your thoughts on the FAQ. You are right in much of what you say, especially that the FAQs are just a motley collection for browsing. There is room for considerable improvement in the way that FAQ type of information is presented, as well as making use of the Resources function. Actually, there have been some recent discussions about this.

So a thread that states, "How to fill in the Pilgrim Office Pre Registraion Form correctly", with a short guide. Then lock it and only allow those that actually volunteer at the office to edit it.

This would be nice to have for a number of topics. The clearest example at the moment is this thread on the topic of carrying poles onto airplanes. That post took a lot of thought and discussion!

The problem is not so much in the IT (although we are limited in what the specific program can do) so much as it is in the knowledge and change management. The forum's basic concept is a discussion forum where all the "information" is crowdsourced and dynamic. We (Ivar and moderators) do not curate the content much. There is very rarely an official forum position on a topic.

It would take a considerable amount of work from volunteers to create and maintain the instructions and guidance, even on topics that seem at first glance to be straightforward. We'd need first to select and organize the topics that deserve official guides. Then, with your example of registration at the pilgrim office, we'd have to select and organize some forum members - "those that actually volunteer at the office" - and hope that they could reach some consensus on what to say. (No small task, to put it mildly!) Then those pages would need to be reviewed and updated continually.

On some other websites, the individual in charge can simply write whatever they think is the best way to do something, and there is no argument. They're the boss and curator of the information on that site. The forum takes a different approach.

Don't get me wrong - your suggestions are interesting and helpful. I'm just pointing out that the solution is not as simple as one might think. Sometimes I have been accused (with some reason) of trying to fix things that ain't broke, so that is another consideration!

Rather than derail this thread further, if we want to discuss more, perhaps we should take the subject to private Conversation.

 

[JabbaPapa]

So I decided to pre register now, so i have less hassle later. But I have sort of an issue with the first drop down box. As some of you know my route this year is a bit complicated. I start in Santander and then do the Vadiniense, Salvador, then Camino do Mar, Ingles, probably the Finisterre camino and then get a compostella.

What "Way" do I use on the pre registration. "Otros Caminos" doesn't offer a suitable start point. Vadiniense or Lebaniego aren't in the Way drop down box either. Kind of perplexed. Want I think I want is Otros Caminos and Northern Spain as the start point, but that doesn't exist as far as I can see.

Any ideas?

Digital pre-registration is not actually mandatory, despite some words suggesting it to be so.

It's really just a tool of the Pilgrims Office to speed up their own work and try and dilute the queuing.

It was literally impossible for me to pre-register last time I was there -- Windows Phone for starters -- and my own Camino was far too long and complicated to be represented on the drop-down menus.

Best if you're in some complex situation as to the start of your own Camino, I myself started on the Provençal Way in the French Riviera, turn up at some point in the day when there's no queue outside, mornings are good for this, explain your difficulty to pre-register, and get a printed ticket at the door.

If you do that, things are treated the old-fashioned way, and you get to explain your itinerary face-to-face rather than through impersonal software UI.

BTW I too am an ex IT professional and computer programmer, and I find the online registration system to be confusing at best.

 

[JabbaPapa]

When registering in advance online, you need to indicate WHICH Camino Route you will end at Santiago de Compostela on. As you only qualify for a Compostela for walking the FINAL 100 km on any recognized Camino THAT ENDS AT THE CATHEDRAL - Tomb of Santiago - it does not matter how many "higgly-piggly" routes you walked all over Europe.

Sorry, but somebody walking hundreds or thousands of K to the Cathedral with a religious or "spiritual" purpose would qualify for a Compostela regardless which route he took for the final 100K -- just as long as that person had the 2 stamps/day to demonstrate walking those 100K.

People do get confused by this "official routes" stuff, whereas it is simply a legal designation for some routes having legal recognition by the State and the various Autonomous Regions and Municipalities and so on for purposes of responsibilities for maintenance and public funding and so on.

The Cathedral is not bound by Civil Law in its issuing of what is still technically a religious certificate that is defined from and by Catholic Canon Law.

All they want is that you can demonstrate having walked contiguously from a) at least 100K b) your home, if you live within less than 100K radius from the Cathedral c) a couple of unusual starting points recognised as valid for that purpose despite the less than 100K distance, else d) documentary evidence of a physical disability preventing you from walking within an individual appraisal of the purpose of your pilgrimage, and of course your Credencial.

Plus biking, horses, maritime routes, yadda-yadda.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Do you have to pre-register in order to be able to get a Compostela at the end (assuming you've walked enough km)?

No.

Thanks Trecile. I see the website asks for "motivation" - religious, non-religious, other. Does the answer to that question determine whether you receive a "Compostela" proper or the other certificate (which I'm sure another post said had more or less stopped being used) as my understanding was that strictly speaking one had to have a religious motivation for the pilgrimage to be worthy of a Compostela proper? Or is it more just a statistical data collection exercise?

Both. You get the Compostela only for a Religious or Spiritual purpose -- but that's actually defined in the interview at the Pilgrim's Office, so that some people who select non-religious motivations are given Compostelas anyway, because the interviewer may have determined from answers given that the purpose was also broadly "spiritual" ; or "religious" in the broader sense. And quite right too.

One issue I have with the software UI is that it forces people to select only one motivation -- and I don't know about you, but I usually have three or more.

If you avoid the pre-registration you get to talk things through face-to-face the old-fashioned way, which I personally prefer. And you get to fill in the old paper registration form which has more choices for motivation than appear in the software UI, you might wish to select several, and you can even write in your own personal one if so desired.

 

[HumanistHiker]

Thanks everyone for your replies If pre-registering via the website makes life easier for the folks at the pilgrim office at Santiago I will pre-register. If I'm planning to do a couple of days of Littoral followed by switching to the Central Camino Portugues for the rest of the trip I'll put the latter as my route. I'll put my motivation as non-religious (which is correct) and I'm relaxed as to whether I get a distance certificate or Compostela proper at the end.

 

[t2andreo]

Sorry, but somebody walking hundreds or thousands of K to the Cathedral with a religious or "spiritual" purpose would qualify for a Compostela regardless which route he took for the final 100K -- just as long as that person had the 2 stamps/day to demonstrate walking those 100K.

People do get confused by this "official routes" stuff, whereas it is simply a legal designation for some routes having legal recognition by the State and the various Autonomous Regions and Municipalities and so on for purposes of responsibilities for maintenance and public funding and so on.

The Cathedral is not bound by Civil Law in its issuing of what is still technically a religious certificate that is defined from and by Catholic Canon Law.

All they want is that you can demonstrate having walked contiguously from a) at least 100K b) your home, if you live within less than 100K radius from the Cathedral c) a couple of unusual starting points recognised as valid for that purpose despite the less than 100K distance, else d) documentary evidence of a physical disability preventing you from walking within an individual appraisal of the purpose of your pilgrimage, and of course your Credencial.

Plus biking, horses, maritime routes, yadda-yadda.

But, the basis on which you become eligible for the Compostela is proving - with two daily stamps - that you walked the final 100 km - on any recognized Camino route that ends in Santiago. The CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER is less important.

You can walk into Santiago on the Frances, Ingles, Norte, Portuguese, Sanabres, etc., documenting that progress with two stamps per day for the final 100 km into Santiago; then take a walk out to Finisterre and return afterwards to claim your Compostela. The Compostela is only based on the route and distance you walked INTO SANTIAGO off that recognized route - before you made your Finisterre side-trip.

Showing / proving 100 contiguous km on one of the Cathedral recognized routes ENDING AT THE CATHEDRAL is the key.

Yes, there are a number of secular governmental and quasi governmental organizations that research, analyze and approve any "new" Camino route. But, it is not "Compostela legal" until and unless the Cathedral authorities accept that historical evidence and place their 'chop' on it. Until that occurs, don't expect a Compostela.

Also, in this regard, I have read recently that there are SIX new routes that want to be considered for the formal Cathedral designation as a Camino Route. The historical and archaeological examinations are ongoing by the secular groups as we speak here. Once they complete their work and make recommendations, the Cathedral authorities will weigh in.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[JabbaPapa]

But, the basis on which you become eligible for the Compostela is proving - with two daily stamps - that you walked the final 100 km - on any recognized Camino route that ends in Santiago.

You're wrong about the "recognized Camino route" bit. The important point is the 100K, not the particular route -- though those Pilgrims who might DIY over those final days, unless they're walking from home and from within those 100K, should likely be very religious in their stamp-collecting ways, and in their shoes I'd do 3/day.

on one of the Cathedral recognized routes

The Cathedral recognises a FAR larger variety of pilgrimage routes than you realise.

Also, in this regard, I have read recently that there are SIX new routes that want to be considered for the formal Cathedral designation as a Camino Route. The historical and archaeological examinations are ongoing by the secular groups as we speak here. Once they complete their work and make recommendations, the Cathedral authorities will weigh in.

The Cathedral has been issuing Compostelas for about a thousand years -- the local Church Authorities are not subjected in this activity to any civil "official" control thereto.

 

[dougfitz]

The Cathedral recognises a FAR larger variety of pilgrimage routes than you realise.

The list of official routes recognized by the Pilgrim Office are listed here. It would surprize me if @t2andreo wasn't aware of that.

The Cathedral has been issuing Compostelas for about a thousand years -- the local Church Authorities are not subjected in this activity to any civil "official" control thereto.

I note that the list of official routes is based on a Galician Xunta cultural heritage law. I'm not sure whether the Pilgrim Office treats this as an exclusive or inclusive list. Others who have served in the Pilgrim Office might know.

That said, the list seems to cover all of the variations that one might use over the last 100 km. Even if routes like the Sanabres are not explicitly listed, the route is clearly included in all the variants of the Via de la Plata/Mozarabe shown here.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The list of official routes recognized by the Pilgrim Office are listed here.

That is the list of routes officially recognised by the Xunta, and reprised in that document by the Cathedral.

Please let's not get into the legalities, suffice to say that the notion of "official routes" is a misleading one.

I note that the list of official routes is based on a Galician Xunta cultural heritage law.

... which defines ALL "historically documented" routes as parts of the Way of Saint James.

I'm not sure whether the Pilgrim Office treats this as an exclusive or inclusive list. Others who have served in the Pilgrim Office might know.

It's not an exclusive one -- though "inclusive" would be misleading. It is a list of routes that have been legally recognised by the Civil Authorities.

It is a list representing the major routes. The major routes are not exclusive of the secondary and tertiary ones.

That said, the list seems to cover all of the variations that one might use over the last 100 km.

Not really -- though unless you were an inhabitant of some pueblo out in those sticks, the very great likelihood is that your feet would quite naturally bring you into those major routes.

Having said that, it's still quite untrue that those walking away from the beaten path are ineligible for a Compostela, all other conditions fulfilled. Just as those not owning a smartphone can get a Compostela too.

The Camino is not defined by some drop-down menus of a software application.

 

[t2andreo]

You're wrong about the "recognized Camino route" bit. The important point is the 100K, not the particular route -- though those Pilgrims who might DIY over those final days, unless they're walking from home and from within those 100K, should likely be very religious in their stamp-collecting ways, and in their shoes I'd do 3/day.

The Cathedral recognises a FAR larger variety of pilgrimage routes than you realise.

The Cathedral has been issuing Compostelas for about a thousand years -- the local Church Authorities are not subjected in this activity to any civil "official" control thereto.

I'm done. I respect your opinions, though I may respectfully disagree with some. My final point about creation and formalization of new Pilgrimage routes is correct. Various secular organizations and groups research and propose new routes on a more or less regular basis.

Once all the necessary 'leg work' is done, the case for adoption is presented to the Cathedral authorities. It is they who have the final say. If the route is accepted and approved as a historically correct route, Compostelas can be issued based on traveling that - now recognized - route into Santiago.

I note, somewhat sardonically, this also means that the new towns and villages, now on an approved Camino route, can benefit from the money spent by pilgrims passing through.

Hope this clarifies on this point. But, I am done debating how and why you qualify for a Compostela. I have worked at the Pilgrim Office for eight of the past 10 years. and I know what I experienced, saw, and heard.

For the authoritative opinion on this issue, I recommend you contact Sra. Rebekah Scott via PM on this Forum. She serves on the board of FICS. This is one of the organizations that researches and makes recommendations for creating new routes.

Estoy terminado en este punto!

Tom

 

[JabbaPapa]

My final point about creation and formalization of new Pilgrimage routes is correct.

Sorry, but no.

@Kathar1na and I had a bit of a to-and-fro on this question a couple of weeks ago, and as far as the Law is concerned, there are no "new" pilgrimage routes, there are just legal and political recognition of these and those historically established routes for administrative, political, economic, and infrastructural purposes.

Various secular organizations and groups research and propose new routes on a more or less regular basis.

Spanish Camino Law specifically restricts recognition of any Camino route to those routes that are historically documented as Ways of Saint James.

Shorter routes from these or those pueblos in Galicia are excluded from that definition, even should they be perfectly historic Ways. As are the innumerable tertiary and variant routes leading from these or those villages or towns towards the major or secondary Ways.

No "secular" group has any legal possibility to establish any "new" route.

Hope this clarifies on this point. But, I am done debating how and why you qualify for a Compostela. I have worked at the Pilgrim Office for eight of the past 10 years. and I know what I experienced, saw, and heard.

And thank you for having done so -- but the question of a legally recognised route and a religiously recognised pilgrimage are two VERY different questions.

Christians visiting the Cathedral from afar for religious purposes are pilgrims through and through, regardless the manner nor trajectory of their journey.

To suggest that foot pilgrims doing so should only be recognised as pilgrims from some arbitrarily imposed "qualifications" is quite unhelpful.

And from this conversation, it would seem to me that those pilgrims, Christians, who are unjustly refused a Compostela by overly zealous Pilgrim Office volunteers would do well to present their grievance to the Cathedral Parish.

For the authoritative opinion on this issue, I recommend you contact Sra. Rebekah Scott via PM on this Forum.

Bekkah is open-minded and willing to learn.

And not prickly when disagreed with, at least not opinion from those of us with long experience and study.

And I seriously doubt that Bekkah would posit her own personal views as being "the authoritative opinion" !!!

She is a learner, just like everyone else with any sense.

 

[Kathor1]

Just to clarify as I am not a participant in this thread's discussion on what constitutes an official camino and how an official camino is established.

As far as I remember I said in another thread:

• Caminos that are officially recognised by the Cathedral as a qualification for a Compostela appear to be those Caminos that are listed in the online registration form. I went to the website and counted them: 19
  
  
• Caminos that are officially recognised by the Xunta de Galicia appear to be those Caminos that are listed in the appropriate regional Galician law and/or in the appropriate national Spanish law which is/are published in their official government gazettes. I did not go to the BOE website to check on the law in its currently valid version.

I have nothing more to add.

 

[dick bird]

Spanish Camino Law specifically restricts recognition of any Camino route to those routes that are historically documented as Ways of Saint James.

I have to say I am intrigued by this reference. My (admittedly unimpressive) googling skills have failed to find a reference to this law. I had always assumed that there must be some official recognition of the Camino over and above its UNESCO and National Cultural Asset listing. This would be necessary to protect it from degradation by land owners, developers and over-enthusiastic civil engineers, not to mention the dispensing of funds necessary for its upkeep and maintenance, but I was unaware of any specific legislation, but had suspected it would be piecemeal and region based like a lot of Spanish law. Could you post a link to the relevant government gazette?

This one is interesting though:

Caminos públicos y su controversia respecto a la titularidad de estos - Opinión Jurídica

Es obligatorio, según lo recogido en la ley, que los Ayuntamientos publiquen en sus inventarios de caminos públicos. Nos hemos encontrado con supuestos en que los caminos que no son públicos, pudiendo atribuirse en dicho registro caminos privados que transcurren por fincas privadas; pudiendo...

opinionjuridica.blog

Recognition by the Spanish authorities is one thing, recognition by the church authorities for the purposes of issuing a compostela is entirely another and one cannot assume that they are perfectly aligned with one another.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The basic Law is this one, although it has been amended a couple of times since :

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-2016-5942

Title VI :

1. Los Caminos de Santiago están formados por el conjunto de rutas reconocidas documentalmente de las que puede testimoniarse su uso como rutas de peregrinación de largo recorrido y que estructuran, conforman y caracterizan el territorio que atraviesan.

...

3. Podrán ser reconocidas como Camino de Santiago aquellas rutas de las que se documente y justifique convenientemente su historicidad como rutas de peregrinación a Santiago de Compostela y su influencia en la formalización de la estructura del territorio por el que transcurren.

 

[dougfitz]

The basic Law is this one, although it has been amended a couple of times since :

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-2016-5942

Title VI :

1. Los Caminos de Santiago están formados por el conjunto de rutas reconocidas documentalmente de las que puede testimoniarse su uso como rutas de peregrinación de largo recorrido y que estructuran, conforman y caracterizan el territorio que atraviesan.

...

3. Podrán ser reconocidas como Camino de Santiago aquellas rutas de las que se documente y justifique convenientemente su historicidad como rutas de peregrinación a Santiago de Compostela y su influencia en la formalización de la estructura del territorio por el que transcurren.

This appears to be a link to the same law as is listed on the Pilgrim Office website. The translated title is Law 5/2016, of 4 May, on the cultural heritage of Galicia, and doesn't appear to be either a Spanish Law, or specifically a Camino Law, which one might have expected given your comment that:

Spanish Camino Law specifically restricts recognition of any Camino route to those routes that are historically documented as Ways of Saint James.

The articles specific to the Ways of Santiago are in Title IV, 10 out of over 140 articles. The others deal with a range of general provisions and other aspects of Galician cultural heritage.

There may be laws that operate at the national level, as you earlier suggested there were. And they may be both Camino specific and operate in the way that you suggested as well. But this law doesn't.

 

[dick bird]

Various secular organizations and groups research and propose new routes on a more or less regular basis.

@JabbaPapa Spanish #52: Camino Law specifically restricts recognition of any Camino route to those routes that are historically documented as Ways of Saint James.

I think there has been a misunderstanding here centring on the use of the word 'new'. A 'new' route is being used to refer to a route that was not officially recognised as such until recently, in spite of being a well-established route at some time in the past (as opposed to a completely new or artificial creation). The Via de la Plata, the Invierno, the Olvidado, the Salvador all fall into this category, i.e. they have been formally recognised as Caminos de Santiago since UNESCO first heritage listed five pilgrimage routes in Spain. . In order to get them recognised, a great deal of research had to be done to discover and provide the necessary documentation. A great deal of this research was done by a large number of secular organisations and individuals, and this work continues in order to identify more previously unrecognised route e.g. the Ruta de la Lana.

Therefore, the two statements I have quoted are not contradictory. They are, in fact, complimentary.

This does not alter the fact that what the Xunta or the Spanish government recognise as a Camino and what the cathedral of Santiago recognise as a Camino are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[JabbaPapa]

There may be laws that operate at the national level, as you earlier suggested there were.

This is a national law, even though it gives particular governance over key aspects of the Camino Ways to Galicia.

And they may be both Camino specific and operate in the way that you suggested as well. But this law doesn't.

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly -- I didn't wish to make a point about governance and the operation of the legally recognised Camino routes (which is of course interesting in itself), but rather about how the law defines what is, what could be, and what isn't a "Camino", whereby historically documented routes form a larger network than the currently recognised "official" ones, but are nevertheless defined in the law as parts of "the" Camino (within the limits defined therein).

The limits are interesting to me personally, because whilst in some broader sense, every road or trail in Europe could be a part of somebody's individual Camino, this law implicitly defines minor tertiary or variant routes and local trails from or through villages leading to a major or secondary route of historic importance as not being parts of "the" Camino as legally defined.

Which contradicts dick bird's point about what the Cathedral recognises being different to what the Xunta defines as "official" being two different things. I'm just saying there's a third element in that the law also defines all historically documented routes as a part of "the" Camino ; and a fourth practical element in the hundreds of thousands of individual decisions for individual pilgrims made at the Office every year, which won't necessarily all fit cosily into these three more formal defining structures.

 

[dougfitz]

This is a national law, even though it gives particular governance over key aspects of the Camino Ways to Galicia

The preamble states:

Este texto pretende ser la base normativa fundamental en la que se plasme el compromiso irrenunciable de la Comunidad Autónoma de Galicia con su patrimonio cultural en cuanto que eje fundamental que le da sentido y significación.

In English: This text is intended to be the fundamental normative basis for the unwavering commitment of the Autonomous Community of Galicia to its cultural heritage as the fundamental axis that gives it meaning and significance.

Perhaps you can explain how a law made by the Comunidad Autónoma de Galicia with a preamble indicating it is intended to operate within Galicia can be considered to be a national law. I clearly don't get it.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The preamble states:

In English: This text is intended to be the fundamental normative basis for the unwavering commitment of the Autonomous Community of Galicia to its cultural heritage as the fundamental axis that gives it meaning and significance.

Perhaps you can explain how a law made by the Comunidad Autónoma de Galicia with a preamble indicating it is intended to operated within Galicia can be considered to be a national law. I clearly don't get it.

The Spanish State recognises this special prerogative of Galicia in this matter. (re-reading, I realise I've used "prerogative" in its technical legal meaning)

Through this national law Spain provides Galicia with general governance, including legally, of the Camino for the given reason.

One could look at it another way, just as validly, as this being a law devised in Galicia and by Galicia but mandated nationally by the Spanish legislature.

That the Camino is generally governed by Galicia is not at issue.

 

[Kathor1]

@dougfitz, FWIW, and you may know this already:

The State Official Gazette is called the “Boletín Oficial del Estado” (BOE). It publishes legislation as well as legal notices and other official texts, mainly issued by the State, but also by the regional and local authorities. It is published daily, except on Sundays.​

​

I am not intimately familiar with the legal dispositions about how national and regionals laws are made known and become law in Spain. It appears that laws of the autonomous regions are published both in their own regional gazette and in the national gazette, in the case of Galicia it is their DOG (Diario Official de Galicia) and the BOE (Boletín Oficial del Estado).

​

European Forum of Official Gazettes - Spain - European Forum of Official Gazettes - Publications Office of the EU

The website of the Forum provides information on, and access to the Official Journal of Spain, to collections of consolidated Legislation, to legislative portals, and to online databases.

op.europa.eu

 

[JabbaPapa]

Just as an aside, there's a new article about how the legal obligations on the Xunta etc. have only been fulfilled on three of the "official" routes ; the Francès, the Inglés, and the Norte.

Work by the Xunta is still unfinished on the Português, VDLP, Invierno, and the route to Fisterra.

https://www.elcorreogallego.es/sant...te-caminos-santiago-delimitados-91162499.html

It's good anyway as an illustration of what this law provides.

 

[dougfitz]

One could look at it another way, just as validly, as this being a law devised in Galicia and by Galicia but mandated nationally by the Spanish legislature.

It defies logic in a federal system for one level of government to be mandating laws made at another level. But if it is indeed so, then you might show me where this has been done?

If the mandate exists for the legislation at one level, then the other level would have no mandate to pass any laws relating to that matter. There will issues at the boundaries, but in general, such systems only work when there are clearly delineated powers and responsibilities for the different levels of government.

 

[JabbaPapa]

If the mandate exists for the legislation at one level, then the other level would have no mandate to pass any laws relating to that matter. There will issues at the boundaries, but in general, such systems only work when there are clearly delineated powers and responsibilities for the different levels of government.

We're getting pretty off-topic here, and this is starting to be a discussion of politics as such.

I'll just comment briefly that your comment is relevant to the occasional tension that can flare up between the Central Government and various of the Autonomous Regions.

 

[dick bird]

We're getting pretty off-topic here, and this is starting to be a discussion of politics as such.

I have to say I agree. Can we leave it here?

 

[dougfitz]

I have to say I agree. Can we leave it here?

I can, although I don't agree that discussing the structure of a federal system has anything to do with the politics of running it.

 

[dick bird]

I can, although I don't agree that discussing the structure of a federal system has anything to do with the politics of running it.

And even less to do with the issue of pre-registering for a compostela.