permethrin spray as a preventative for bed bugs

[mauveglass]

As I am starting to pack and weigh everything, is it really necessary to bring permethrin spray to actually spray on the beds for bed bug prevention? I am bringing a bed bug sheet. I have thoroughly read the posts concerning this and some say it could be necessary and others don't. Considering it's 12 oz and I'm getting very close to the max on weight, I'd much rather forgo it.

 

[KiwiNomad06]

In seven weeks of walking, I only saw a handful of people who received bed bug bites. It does happen, and it isn't pleasant for those who get bitten, but a preventative spray is not something I would be taking in my pack. Your choice and your call though.
Margaret

 

[migolito]

I will be doing my first Camino this Sept. and will be treating my outer cloths, sleeping bag and pack with Permithrin before I begin my walk. Once treated the effectiveness lasts for about 6-8 weeks, including about 6 washings. It just makes sense as it adds no weight and helps prevent the spread of bedbugs.

 

[wayfarer]

My nephew is a crop sprayer in Australia and is well up on all the sprays on the market these days. He told me he would not touch permethrin as is was dangerous even in small amounts and that he would reccomend that I wash any clothes or sleeping bag that had been pretreated by the manufacturer. I think after talking with him I would take my chances with the bed bugs, and I did, thank God I escaped without bite. I hope this helps.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

This is the EPA dossier on permethrin:
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsh ... rin_fs.htm
And

Pyrethroids are considered safe because most vertebrates have sufficient enzymes required for rapid breakdown. Toxicity for vertebrates, including humans, occurs at extremely high concentrations, but repeated exposure may increase health risks at lower concentration. Pyrethroids are however highly toxic to cats because they do not have glucuronidase which serves in hepatic detoxifying metabolism pathways. Anaphylaxis has been reported after pyrethrum exposure, but allergic reaction to pyrethroids has not been documented. Increased sensitivity occurs following repeated exposure to cyanide, which is found in pyrethroids like beta-cyfluthrin (Multiple Chemical Sensitivity Awareness, J. Edward Hill, MD, President & Executive Committee Member, AMA).

 

[Anniesantiago]

On our June walk we DID see people with bedbug bites, and a few of my walkers were bitten in at least one private albergue.

I plan on using my old faithful method on the September walk - written up in my blog - and unless the problem is vicious, not worrying too much about it otherwise.

If you can stand the smell, a bedbug sheet will solve the problem and keep the permethrin from touching your skin.

 

[wayfarer]

Not wishing to offend but I would not take much comfort from the EPA, they have not exactly covered themselves in glory over the years. On a more practical level, how happy would one be if the person on the bunk above or below started to spray their bed with insectiside, I know I would not be. I would have to agree with Anniesantiago, use your silk or manmade bedbug sheet and take your chances.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

started to spray their bed with insecticide

I would express my anger, inform the hospitalero, and leave.

The EPA has been extremely successful in protecting the U.S. human environment:
http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2010/11/29 ... 73961.html
I cannot imagine the air and water quality in the U.S. if it had been left to the free market system. When externalities are not part of the price of a product, then demand is artificially high. When pollution is free, you get a lot of pollution, a free market principle for sure.

The majority of the EPA paper on permethrin is about risks and new techniques for mitigating the risks. Since it is science based, it is probably better than "gut feeling."

 

[wayfarer]

Not wishing to offend but I would not take much comfort from the EPA, they have not exactly covered themselves in glory over the years.

My apoligies falcon, it was the FDA I was thinking about.
Getting my government agencies mixed up.

 

[Dzyduck87]

Permethrin, like any chemical needs to be used with some common sense. I treated all of my clothes/scarves/gloves with it generously BEFORE going to Africa this summer and I wasn't bitten by a thing. I will be treating my coat/sleeping bag/backpack and scarf when I begin the camino this May, again, BEFORE departing Canada. My travel nurse advised me to get some Permethrin online and treat my clothes (have a hard time finding it in Canada) but she never said to use it directly as a spray. Any chemical that withstands 6 washes or 2 months of wear falls into that "common sense tells me not put this directly on my skin" category for me.

 

[grayland]

I was at my dermatologist yesterday and while waiting picked up a brochure about treatment for Scabies (which I know nothing about) and noticed the following.

"TREATMENT:
5% Permethrin cream is applied to the skin from the neck down at bedtime and washed off the next morning. Dermatologists recommend that the cream be applied to cool, dry skin over the entire body including the palms of the hands, under finger nails, soles of the feet, and the groin. Leave on for 8 to 14 hours.
A second treatment may be required. Side effects of 5% Permethrin cream may include mild temporary burning and stinging."

The treatment was described as being for the most at risk group which were Children, Mothers of small children, young adults and elderly people in nursing homes. So it is recommended that you cover a child or elderly person with a 5% cream and leave it on overnight. Far more than a sheet or sleeping bag that has been treated weeks before.

There were no cautions about the use of Permethrin, certainly nothing like has been posted in the forum.
5% is the same as the liquid spray/soak sold for bedbug protection.

The brochure was printed by the American Academy of Dermatology . Website: WWW.aad.org

 

[Dzyduck87]

Again, given the strength, personally I wouldn't use it in place of my daily bug repellent, or put in directly on my skin, in a past life I probably went without the lead paint on my face too I'm not a doctor, but I did just fine in a rural wetland areas with permethrin treated clothing. Depends on the individual and their feelings about insecticides and chemicals.

 

[dougfitz]

Again, given the strength, personally I wouldn't use it in place of my daily bug repellent, or put in directly on my skin, in a past life I probably went without the lead paint on my face too I'm not a doctor, but I did just fine in a rural wetland areas with permethrin treated clothing. Depends on the individual and their feelings about insecticides and chemicals.

I did some research on this a while ago, and @Dzyduck87's approach is in line with the the advice I found. Permethrin treated clothing and equipment is safe to handle once it has dried, provided one avoids contact with wet areas - mouth, nose, eyes and crutch. It is an insecticide, and care needs to taken to dispose of any leftover permethrin solution safely. It shouldn't be tossed out onto one's garden, for example. DEET on the other hand is an insect repellant and can be applied directly to the skin. The combination during the day is pretty effective when repellant can be reapplied regularly. I am not sure that it would be completely effective at night. I think I would be taking @Anniesantiago's advice and avoiding anywhere infested with bedbugs.

 

[petitewalker]

I will be putting Permethrin on my sleeping bag and backpack, however the bottles I have say "good for two weeks". How is this going to work for a 7 week Camino?
Will this do the trick or will I have to buy some in Spain along "the way"

 

[Deleted member 3000]

the bottles I have say "good for two weeks". How is this going to work for a 7 week Camino?

My experience is that it lasts much longer, particularly if treated items are not washed frequently.

 

[petitewalker]

My experience is that it lasts much longer, particularly if treated items are not washed frequently.

Thanks Falcon, that's what I was thinking. Don't plan to wash either.

 

[woodswoman]

As I am starting to pack and weigh everything, is it really necessary to bring permethrin spray to actually spray on the beds for bed bug prevention? I am bringing a bed bug sheet. I have thoroughly read the posts concerning this and some say it could be necessary and others don't. Considering it's 12 oz and I'm getting very close to the max on weight, I'd much rather forgo it.

I bought the spray and then left it home. The thought of spraying poison IN my bag just gave me the creeps. I had a sleep sheet and most of the albergues had plastic mattresses, metal bunk structures, tile floors. I know I might have been lucky, but I actually only heard ONE person talk about bed bugs (actually thinking she had the bites), on the entire Camino. I am going back again in 2015, and won't use the spray next time either. Just my personal thought.

 

[nathanael]

On our June walk we DID see people with bedbug bites, and a few of my walkers were bitten in at least one private albergue.

I plan on using my old faithful method on the September walk - written up in my blog - and unless the problem is vicious, not worrying too much about it otherwise.

If you can stand the smell, a bedbug sheet will solve the problem and keep the permethrin from touching your skin.

Can anyone tell me where to find the post of someone who soaked a fitted sheet in a plastic bag with permethrin..

 

[Anniesantiago]

You don't need anything as heavy as a fitted sheet. Just a sheer curtain will do.
You can hang it on a line outside and spray it.
Much less weight to carry.
Then just lay it on the bed under your sleeping bag or sleep sheet.

 

[SMOM Pilgrim]

I will be doing my first Camino this Sept. and will be treating my outer cloths, sleeping bag and pack with Permithrin before I begin my walk. Once treated the effectiveness lasts for about 6-8 weeks, including about 6 washings. It just makes sense as it adds no weight and helps prevent the spread of bedbugs.

Did the same thing for my walk. Picked up Permethrin at REI...soaked pack, shell around my sleeping bag, boots, socks and set of clothes I used in the evenings.

 

[Kanga]

There is a difference between permethrin and pyrethrum. Permethrin is what we use to pretreat sheets and clothing, is stable in sunlight, and will last through quite a few washes and days - one treatment will be good enough for a lengthy camino. Pyrethrum is the natural product of the chrysanthemum flower, is biodegradable and breaks down in sunlight. It is used as a knock-down treatment, for example as the main ingredient in Clako, and also in personal insect repellant in a diluted form.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Just spray your mattress when you arrive with some cheap mosquito repellent spray and observe.

Thirty thousand pilgrims later, the bed has been sprayed thirty thousand times. I personally find it presumptuous to spray someone else's property. There is no way to control the toxic buildup if everyone treats the community property. Ask the hospitalero if you can spray. I suspect the answer will be negative for some very good reasons.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I think it´s much easier and safer to uses Anniesantiago´s method. Just spray your mattress when you arrive with some cheap mosquito repellent spray and observe. If there are bedbugs you will see them and then you move to another albergue,pension,hotel, etc.

Can you confirm this method please @Anniesantiago .

Ondo Ibili !

IF I see bedbug sign, I don't stay.

Otherwise, I use a pump spray and pump 2-4 times right above the mattress.
If the buggers are there, they'll come out.

As far as being presumptive, I am pretty sure those albergues are sprayed with crap a lot stronger than my mosquito repellant on a regular basis, say every day.
And if they're not, they should be!

It would be no different than slathering my body with DEET, then sleeping on the mattress.

And considering the color of most of the sheets, there's a lot more to worry about than a few drops of mosquito repellant, imo

 

[C clearly]

@Anniesantiago . What does the "mosquito repellent" have as its active ingredient? How often have you flushed out bedbugs by spraying? (Not how often have you found evidence through inspection?)

I agree (sort of) about over thinking. However for me that means doing the thinking to understand the problem and the possible solutions, then making a decision and accepting the consequences.

 

[Anniesantiago]

@Anniesantiago . What does the "mosquito repellent" have as its active ingredient? How often have you flushed out bedbugs by spraying? (Not how often have you found evidence through inspection?)

I agree (sort of) about over thinking. However for me that means doing the thinking to understand the problem and the possible solutions, then making a decision and accepting the consequences.

I have no idea what the ingredients are.
I just go to the farmacia and ask for mosquito repellant.

Over the past 12 years of walking, this method has worked for me many times. I didn't take a count, sorry.
If I had to guess, I'd say I left maybe 10 places after finding bedbugs with no other sign.

 

[C clearly]

I have no idea what the ingredients are.
I just go to the farmacia and ask for mosquito repellant.

Over the past 12 years of walking, this method has worked for me many times. I didn't take a count, sorry.
If I had to guess, I'd say I left maybe 10 places after finding bedbugs with no other sign.

No need to apologize for not counting, or taking notes during your caminos . I am just asking because I am curious about what you found. I personally don't have a strong opinion or aversion to cautious use of chemical repellents. But I do have a strong interest in the scientific method for bedbugs!

I understand that most mosquito repellents contain some form of either DEET or citronella, so that is probably what you are using.

It would be interesting to see if using a spray bottle of water or rubbing alcohol would have the same effect. Or maybe just standing and staring at the bed for an extra 60 seconds would result in new bedbug sightings 10 times out of several hundred trials. My guess is that it would be close! However, I am not about to embark on this research!

I fully expect to encounter bedbugs on my next camino. If I don't, I will not be disappointed, but it really won't add much to the body of knowledge.

 

[AJ]

Writing from Santiago, this is the first year since 2011 that I HAVEN´T been bitten by bedbugs.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Lemon grass oil (citronela) is not particularly effective.

 

[Anniesantiago]

It would be interesting to see if using a spray bottle of water or rubbing alcohol would have the same effect. Or maybe just standing and staring at the bed for an extra 60 seconds would result in new bedbug sightings 10 times out of several hundred trials. My guess is that it would be close! However, I am not about to embark on this research!

I seriously doubt it.
The spray is doing its job and repelling the insects.
It apparently confuses them in some way.

But I'd love to see the results of your experiment with water, alcohol, or staring.

Me, I'll continue to do what works even in the USA, where bedbugs are also a HUGE issue in even upscale hotels these days.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

IF I see bedbug sign, I don't stay.

Otherwise, I use a pump spray and pump 2-4 times right above the mattress.
If the buggers are there, they'll come out.

As far as being presumptive, I am pretty sure those albergues are sprayed with crap a lot stronger than my mosquito repellant on a regular basis, say every day.
And if they're not, they should be!

It would be no different than slathering my body with DEET, then sleeping on the mattress.

And considering the color of most of the sheets, there's a lot more to worry about than a few drops of mosquito repellant, imo

Why would the bed bugs come out when you use à product they don't react to?

 

[Anniesantiago]

Why would the bed bugs come out when you use à product they don't react to?

Exactly.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Exactly.

Still,don't get it. You spray water and they'll come out? And what di you suggest we so in Borres or other hamlets hours away from the next stop? Not that Borrs had begbugs mind you.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Still,don't get it. You spray water and they'll come out? And what di you suggest we so in Borres or other hamlets hours away from the next stop? Not that Borrs had begbugs mind you.

I did not suggest water.
Cclearly said that.

Also, here is a link on Sawyers.
They say one application lasts 6 weeks - just long enough to walk the Camino.
https://sawyer.com/sawyer-u/faqs/insect-repellents/

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I did not suggest water.
Cclearly said that.

Also, here is a link on Sawyers.
They say one application lasts 6 weeks - just long enough to walk the Camino.
https://sawyer.com/sawyer-u/faqs/insect-repellents/

But if you spraye something they don't react to, that ie anything that is not permetrym, wh wpuld they come out? Not to enjoy a bath

 

[C clearly]

But I'd love to see the results of your experiment with water, alcohol, or staring.

We all know that variations on the alcohol treatment have not been successful. People have been breathing alcohol fumes on them without success. My water idea has clearly just added to the confusion. I think the stare-down is worth trying. If you see a tired old peregrina furiously staring at her mattress, please understand that she is a research scientist. Maybe I will carry a clipboard as well.

 

[domigee]

I stared and it worked! There you have it, a scientific explanation

No honestly the bed bugs are only bad if you are allergic to them.... Otherwise it's just another one of those 'bichitos' . But you need to know what to do NOT to bring them home.

Read and re-read (in another thread) what they do at the gaucelmo albergue in Rabanal, they're AWSOME dealing with bed bugs and AnnieSantiago's advice worked a treat too on my last Camino. I didn't get any bites because I LEFT when it looked dodgy. Once bitten twice shy!

 

[movinmaggie]

As I am starting to pack and weigh everything, is it really necessary to bring permethrin spray to actually spray on the beds for bed bug prevention? I am bringing a bed bug sheet. I have thoroughly read the posts concerning this and some say it could be necessary and others don't. Considering it's 12 oz and I'm getting very close to the max on weight, I'd much rather forgo it.

I would add to this question….even if one brought permethrin, do the airlines allow toxic liquids allowed either in the cabin or checked??

 

[Anniesantiago]

I would add to this question….even if one brought permethrin, do the airlines allow toxic liquids allowed either in the cabin or checked??

You do NOT need to take permethrin spray WITH you on the Camino.
The spray is something you use on your equipment BEFORE you leave.

 

[James Bratton]

Bedbugs live in the walls, and furniture too, as well as the bed.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Bedbugs live in the walls, and furniture too, as well as the bed.

Yes, and any place dark.
One year, walking the Norte, I found them behind pictures on the wall.