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Pagan takeover...?

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so the macro relates to the micro - .....the micro to the macro ...
so - at the quantum level you have two particles separated by distance. Make an alteration to one of the particles and the other - completely separate - particle immediately changes as well --- this connectivity, without restrictions of space or time ... if it is so in the micro it must be so in the macro ... we are all connected, what we do and don't do, what we think and don't think, what we feel and don't feel, reverberates throughout living forms - as all mystics, saints, and awakened ones have always said - we truly are One ... the eyes and hands of God, acting out in the phenomenal universe, etc
how else could it be?

oh dear - seems that science and religion are not so far apart after all :wink:
 
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So true - when asked, Saint Francis told his friars to just describe themselves as simple penitents.
 
Marion uses the words "true catholics"

Marion who on earth are "true catholics"??

Jesus the carpenter from Nazareth came to show us how to behave as good human beings.

Nowadays there is a lot of talk about orthodoxy (believing the right things), but if you read the gospels you will see that Jesus was far far more concerned about orthopraxis (doing the right things). As were the writers of the the new testament.

We are all sinners. We all "miss the mark". There is some song that goes"What if God were one of us, just a stranger on a bus, trying to find his way home.

That is all of us as we struggle through life influenced by our early life experiences.

At the end of the journey He is there to greet each of us with a hug and a welcome in.

Some men with high responsibility make an awful mess of transmitting this message to the rest of us.
 
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pagans taking over the Caminos? lower case 'p' .. no, I don't think so, what we seem to have is humans drawn to pilgrimage .. Pagans, upper case 'p' - no such organisation exists, except in the minds of a few ....as for 'pilgrim' ....

well, - we have the official RC definition of 'pilgrim' for those going on pilgrimage to the cathedral at Santiago. We also have the general term 'pilgrim' and there has been discussion about what that really means ...

well - we could look at common usage :lol: (some of the refugios are quite pleasant)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O8oLqY2sxo[/youtube]
 
pilgrim-gravity-relation [pgr]

PILGRIMSPLAZA said:
... we would agree on the subject within a few minutes, depending how good the coffee is.
Click to expand...
Indeed, this morning on the beach the coffee was excellent and the pilgrim-gravity-relation [pgr] was discussed and agreed upon in a matter of minutes; amazing! It can hardly be denied... Anyone?
 
I'm just curious as to why this is important to people....I say, "Walk, drink wine, meet people, meditate, enjoy the countryside and have a good time"....What a gift to be able to be out there at all! Such a first world dilemma..................................
R-
 
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obinjatoo@yahoo.com said:
I'm just curious as to why this is important to people.
Click to expand...

It wasn't, just Priscillian being mischievious. I hope she is pleased with her handiwork.

Regards,
 

She should be! This has been the most fun thread for a long time. On topic, off topic, humour, seriousness, a flow of intelligence and fun - very similar to how a conversation can go at a good and friendly and laughter-filled dinner party.
Not the sort of thread for those with no sense of humour of course, nor for the dull or pendantic - but for the rest of us - what fun! :lol: :wink:
 
"'We always have the urge to dance....it's only the tune that changes!' Nellpilgrim"
How utterly true - and sums up the whole argument really!

Is it at all possible that folk could stop stating that pagans don't believe in God? If you are not a pagan then at least read a bit about it before you make statements.
There is only 'what is' - the only variable is how people perceive/believe. Hence different religions and belief systems and absence of any. 'What is' is still 'what is'. You may be a Christian, I may be a pagan, he may be a Moslem, she may be a Buddhist. We are all just staring up the mountain and describing what we see differently - the 'what is' up the mountain is still the same!
I happen to be a pagan with a strong belief in God - it is just that the details I believe are different to yours. I may use a different gender, or both in my devotions, but I believe 'God' is beyond gender - and beyond human ken. So lets just dance to our different music eh?
ps; many seem to be using the word pagan when they actually mean atheist - a person with no belief in God!!
 
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"What if God were one of us, just a stranger on a bus, trying to find his way home." great song and by Joan Osborne!

David - you have led a sheltered life - there are many pagan organisations and have been for many thousands of years. Perhaps you should contact The Pagan Federation for some info - then you will be able to post more accurately....
 

Hecate - no, my life has not been sheltered at all, quite the opposite - I have met and talked with many who call themselves pagans, have sat round the campfires with them, stood on the hills with them, watched the sun rise with them. I was at the first Stonehenge Summer Solstice gathering and travelled in my living van with the Convoy to the first Glastonbury festival where we went up to the farmhouse to get milk and eggs from Michael, and the next two years - I have not led a sheltered life but I do have an honours degree - what the Americans name 'magna cum laude' - in the phenomenology of religions and theology - that is my lineage, I have worked at this riddle of existence, as it were.

I know about the Pagan Federation, but the lineage only goes back to 1979 - I mean no harm but it does not have lineage; those Pagans (including Druids) who think they are re-creating a pre-Christian Celtic religion are in error as the Celts didn't have a written language so in essence they are making up a new religion and it is a religion of the individual - based on the erroneous idea that "whatever one thinks has merit". Those who believe that they are re-creating a Hellenistic, Grecian pre-Christian belief are also in error as most of those religions were secret initiation religions and there are no records .... if you trace it back you will find that Wiccans base their beliefs on the 1950's Encyclopedia Britannica entry for witchcraft, which was completely invented by a woman who was given the task but could find nothing about it, except for just one 16th century Scottish letter that mentioned how many witches would be considered to be a coven.
I am perfectly happy for folk to have their own beliefs - how else should it be - but the world religions have much to offer - Hinduism, for example, has lineage and serious theologies that come to grips with the nature of reality and our place within it - read the 8th c. works of Adi Shankara, for instance, or the 5,000 year old Bhagavad Gita ....

From your own site -
A definition of a Pagan:
A follower of a polytheistic or pantheistic nature-worshipping religion.
A definition of Paganism:
A polytheistic or pantheistic nature-worshipping religion.

Sure, it is not necessary to belong to one of the world religions to find God - of course - but reading their books is a short-cut and one can test one's thoughts against the thoughts of countless generations of deep thinkers and awakened ones.
Polytheism is a fail as it merely focuses on lesser phenomena rather than the Oneness that upholds all phenomena - and worshiping nature? Why? Which part of nature? A Tree? An ant? and why worship it? Cherish it, yes. Nurture it, yes. Celebrate it, yes. But worship it? There is no 'it' to worship.

I had dinner with James Lovelock's son and his wife a while back - James Lovelock invented the Gaia principle - and was told that his father was appalled that people hadn't read his work but went about telling everyone that he had proposed the planet as a living organism. He said no such thing. What he explained was that the eco-systems of this planet inter-acted with each other in such a way that they could be mistaken for a living organism. But now we have hordes of pagans going around with this invented belief .... I could go on ... but I won't.

So - I am content that individuals name themselves pagans - this is the Age of the individual and the belief that whatever an individual thinks has merit - but, for me, well, I see it differently.

Buen Camino
 
Camino Way markers in Bronze
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
ColinPeter:
"It doesn't really matter what we think, the only documentary answer available is the statistics given by the pilgrim office."

Priscillian/Anonymous: "(There are) lies, damn lies and (pilgrim) statistics".
Religious/Spiritual does not mean Religious and no amount of propaganda will make it so.
Documentation, yes. Answer, no.
 
David - your quote - 'Pagans, upper case 'p' - no such organisation exists, except in the minds of a few ....as for 'pilgrim' .... - '
I said that pagan organisations have and do exist, they have and they do. If you now want to say they need to have a lineage - what happens to Christianity/Buddhism/Islam - if you go back 2000 years they do not have lineage! By the nature of pagan beliefs - being an umbrella term rather than a specific - as there are so many different forms of belief, you would not have such a lineage. So to say paganism is not valid as a religion/belief system because there has not been an organisation controlling it long-term is insulting and belittling. Why can you not allow others to have their own beliefs and you get on with yours? I don't believe in Christian tenets but I respect Christians and would not denigrate their faith - but I would stand up for mine!
I have studied archaeology and world religions and also have a science degree, I started life in the Catholic faith and left it because it seems totally untrue to me. Only I can decide what I believe - please stop dissing my faith!!
 

The Confraternity of Pilgrims to Rome is a basically Christian organisation but not tied to the Catholic church and I believe is the Confraternity of St James in the UK is similar but I may be wrong. They are more interested in helping pilgrims on their journeys than following a specific sect of Christianity.

I have always thought that God is the best judge of whether one should accept communion from a particular priest or the Compostela than any of us.

That said it is a Catholic pilgrimage just as there are Shia and Sunni Islamic pilgrimages and many Hindu ones.
 
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@Falcon269'. The CCoP was founded in an Anglican basement but I think it safe to say that the two Canadian confraternities are ecumenical in the broadest sense (RCs and other Christians, and plenty of people who have no religious affiliation, or who are even against it, and a few Jews and Muslims and Jain thrown in-- there's likely a good chunk of pagans if one includes new-age followers in that category). I think each member will have their own understanding of their own journey and how it links to the Christian pilgrimage and to the pre-Xn one. Aside from Xn understandings, I only know of two explicitly non-Xn motivations for doing the Camino-- one Jewish, and the other Buddhist.

I know that there are individual bishops who are members of the Québec group and at least one was formerly of the CCoP until she left the country, and plenty of clergy of various stripes (RC, Anglican, United, Mennonite, and Lutheran) in both. Some branches have had Xn-oriented retreats associated with their meetings, but not as part of them. Some of the Québec chapters seem to be more explicitly Catholic than others.

In Spain and especially in Santiago, the RCC has shown itself to be supportive of other Xns on the Camino even if not every priest really understands. I don't think it is fair to suggest that they are in it for converts or for money.

I think that this board has seen lots of discussion on spiritual and religious as terms and I do not know if we will ever get to agreement on it, so I am reluctant to come to any conclusions based on any particular understanding.
 
I asked that question in all sincerity because I would love to know if I have been following a 'pre-Christian / pre-Roman' pilgrimage route! since then the same statement has occured at least twice:- here
Lydia Gillen on 03 Jul 2013, 21:32
Long long ago the Romans, and maybe others before them, journeyed to Finesterre.
Click to expand...
and here
oursonpolaire on 05 Jul 2013, 18:44
I think each member will have their own understanding of their own journey and how it links to the Christian pilgrimage and to the pre-Xn one.
Click to expand...



Was there ever a "pre-Christian" pilgrimage? If there was the OP's question is relevant. If there was not . . . . . .? : :?
Great to hear others views on the matter. As David said
This has been the most fun thread for a long time. On topic, off topic, humour, seriousness, a flow of intelligence and fun - very similar to how a conversation can go at a good and friendly and laughter-filled dinner party.
Click to expand...

Blessings on all your pilgrimages
Tio Tel
 
TerryB said:
Was there ever a "pre-Christian" pilgrimage?
Click to expand...
Glad you asked; it was a lovely discussion:

pilgrim-books/topic885.html - Pilgrimage is as old as man and he has always wanted to go west, to the end of the world where the sun sets.

el-camino-frances/topic16031.html - The big question is: where, when and why did it start?
- Alfred Watkins [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Watkins ] showed us ley lines in Britain, Louis Charpentier [ http://www.librarything.com/author/charpentierlouis - http://www.librarything.com/work/5966994 ] did the same in France and highlighted les Jacques et le mystère de compostelle. Estella no doubt refers to The Milky Way....
- Georgiana Goddard King writes in The Way of Saint James [ http://archive.org/details/wayofsaintjames03kinguoft ] (Volume III, p488) that S. James is also 'psychopompous, patron of wayfarers and a chtonian power'.*

el-camino-frances/topic2089.html#p113019 - Go west, young man! Louis Charpentier told us.

miscellaneous-topics/topic3907.html#p21668 - Lugo ... is a Lug city like London, Lyon, Leiden (Holland) and some more : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugdunum
Lugdunum Batavorum : Katwijk near Leiden (Holland) :
http://www.livius.org/ga-gh/germania/lugdunum.html
Lugdunum Convenae : St. Bertrand-de-Cominges
Colonia Copia Claudia Augusta Lugdunum : Lyon :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugdunum#Benaming .
See http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Charpentier
Hmmm… at least five more Mystères… so little time...

miscellaneous-topics/topic6631.html#p38964 - ... is there something in the hard drive of us humans which makes us search in this way? Go west, young man! - Of course there is; the question is what condition? Louis Charpentier told us. Europeans feel the need to go west where the sun sets and they took that urge with them to the States.

Let's try to get un unbiased scientific research program started. There must be thousands of old and new pilgrim students who would like to earn a degree in this field. A questionnaire in a tourist or pilgrim's office could get some relevant decisionmakers in the good mood.

announcements-your-feedback/topic13015.html#p88092
 
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PILGRIMSPLAZA said:
Europeans feel the need to go west where the sun sets and they took that urge with them to the States.
Click to expand...
You do mean the Americas, I presume. After some initial Viking excursions, Europeans only went west after having discovered the south and east - it was the only place left to go, not where they were naturally drawn.

PILGRIMSPLAZA said:
Go west, young man!
Click to expand...
Where else was Horace Greeley going to tell young anglo-saxons to go? They had landed on the east coast, and lived there!

Attributing some primal urge to what might be, in reality, just pursuing the last available option is hardly meaningful.

Regards,
 
Priscillian said:
Documentation, yes. Answer, no.
Click to expand...
However, a better answer than someone spruiking a book. (referring to Jack Hitt in this case)
Priscillian said:
….it is considered a Certificate of Achievement by most..….
Click to expand...
If considered so by “most”, why do so few select “other” as their motivation?
Priscillian said:
Religious/Spiritual does not mean Religious ….
Click to expand...
Neither does it mean pagan.
 
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I entered into this discussion not wishing to denigrate the views of other people, and I have no done so. I certainly had no intention of issuing smart aleck put downs of people who see the world in a very different way to me. I've never actually met a pilgrim on the path who would do that, even though, I have walked for many hours conversing with people who were devout and firm in their religious views. We were able to talk without any of us implying the other was deluded, or damned.

It is a pity that enthusiasm for your own view of the world led you to make that remark. I am tempted to respond in kind, but will instead withdraw. I do so not because I am smarting, I'm quite irritated at the arrogance that lies behind the pun and the wink, but I realise there is nothing to be gained in further exploration of any matter with the person who made it.

From now on I will use the forum for gaining or giving factual information.

Buen Camino
 
What is God? Who knows? For me, what we call God is something to do with the power in the Universe that draws things together, whereas what we call Evil is the power that divides. Therefore God is deeply involved in community, sharing, relationship, friendship, welcome, sharing, compassion, love, laughing and crying together etc. etc. This is what I have found on the Camino, so I think it is an experience of God without necessarily involving religion. Now, how am I going to write a sermon that says that without sounding as if I'm a sandwich short of a picnic, I wonder?
 
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I don't see the CCoP in the Archconfraternity's list of official organizations. There is a Quebec confraternity.
 
falcon269 said:
I don't see the CCoP in the Archconfraternity's list of official organizations. There is a Quebec confraternity.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure which page you're looking at, but the two groups are listed here: http://peregrinossantiago.es/eng/prepar ... worldwide/ . Certainly, both are in touch with Santiago and the Pilgrims' Office and their credentials are recognized as authorized.

Other pages on this site don't list either and on: http://peregrinossantiago.es/eng/archco ... the-world/, I was puzzled to see a Cofradia de Santiago en Ontario, of which I've never heard. Neither Canadian group (or the mythical Cofradia en Ontario) are found on page: http://peregrinossantiago.es/eng/prepar ... ternities/
 
I note too, that the Confraternity of St. James in England is not an approved confraternity as well, just a nonprofit to support pilgrims.

All well and good, and very ecumenical, but they are not real confraternities for the real Catholic pilgrimage. That is why they can take in Protestants, Jews, and pagans! I doubt that they could draw up by laws that would be approved by the Archconfraternity.

Since the real credentials are issued only through real confraternities, it is curious that they work with the rogue organizations like CSJ and CCoP.

You do good work regardless.
 
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Oh dear, Nell Pilgrim.
Most of the time we see pretty much ojo to ojo, but...
I do admit to "shortcomings" as were described by a Gnostic priest to me on my first Camino all those years ago. But caminando because I was "seeking redemption", um, no.
Come on, fess up, hands up: how many of you out there are "seeking redemption"? :|
 
Now let's see, how can I keep this thread going?
Priscillian said:
....Come on, fess up, hands up: how many of you out there are "seeking redemption"? :|
Click to expand...
Ummm, this should do it.
 

The CCoP's constitution was provided to Santiago as part of the negotiations leading up to the recognition/authorization of credentials. I understand that the President has in his possession a letter from the Nuncio pronouncing his blessing on the CCoP's apostolate.
 
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Blessings on non-Catholics are frequent; the annual blessings on animals included. A pilgrimage to the crypt is Catholic, and regardless of the kind and inclusive reception generally offered, non-Catholics are outsiders (just as wearing a yarmulka at a neighbor's bar mitzvah does not actually admit you to the Jewish community).

A appreciate the religious and spiritual Compostela, but it is more a marketing action than inclusion. Perhaps the Church has some responsibility in the pagan (I mean the perjorative as I perceived the Hitt intent) takeover.
 
Oursonpolaire: Falcon is winding you up. His contributions to this debate are as mischievious and unfounded as those of the OP. Entertaining nonetheless.

Falcon blithely asserts that the Camino to Santiago is a "catholic pilgrimage". This is just tommyrot. Of course the camino has a Catholic heritage as it was at its most popular pre-reformation when almost everyone was catholic. I suppose in modern times it could be called a "catholic pilgrimage" if only Catholics made the journey to Santiago. Anyone who has walked on a camino route knows that this is patently not the case and people of many religions and many of no religion make the pilgrimage to Santiago.

Falcon's understanding of the organisational arrangements to support pilgrims and promote the pilgrimage is also seriously defective. The Cathedral of Santiago and indeed the Tourist authorities in Santiago recognise different types of organisations which exist. Some are religious and others are secular.

The Archicofradia of the Apostle Santiago is a catholic religious organisation founded in 1499. It was formed at the behest of the Kings of Spain who called for the formation of an organisation of women and men of every nation to support pilgrims. The Archicofradia's first achievement was to open the pilgrim hospital in Santiago which is now the Parador. The Archcofradia is independent of the Cathedral of Santiago and is accountable to the Holy See. It has been in continuous existence since 1499 and nowadays runs an albergue for pilgrims, promotes and supports volunteering along the camino and through grants it receives runs a programme to poen churches along the way.

The Archicofradia also has a network of more local confraternities which are similarly catholic organisations.

The Archcofradia and its local confraternities are small in size compared to the network of Amigos Organisations in Spain and in other countries. In the main these are secular - i.e they are not affiliated with the Catholic church or with another religion. They exist to promote the pilgrimage and provide assistance to pilgrims.

There seems to be some obsession with credenciales. There is no such thing as one "approved" "real" or "catholic" credencial. The situation is perfectly straightforward.

The Cathedral of Santiago issues a credencial which is recognised in the Pilgrims' Office and albergues. The Cathedral of Santiago (through the Pilgrims Office) sells these credenciales to a number of outlets - confraternities which are part of the archicofradia network, Amigos organisations, country organisations and indeed nowadays through tour operators and others. Basically if you are a legitimate organisation who can place an order and pay your bill you will be considered as an outlet for credenciales.

The Cathedral of Santiago also recognises that it can be of benefit to the pilgrimage and solve problems of the cost of postage to approve the credenciales of country Pilgrim Associations. Therefore the organisations in the UK, Canada, Ireland, Japan, Russia, Australia....and so on and so on... all have their own credenciales.

Nothing sinister. Nothing "Catholic" just practical business logistics.

It is as ridiculous to suggest that the pilgrimage to Santiago is exclusively Catholic as it is to suggest that pagans are taking it over...which was never the point which the author made in the first place!
 
I cannot glean Prissy's intent, but the quote was about pagans, as the term insultingly implies should include everyone except Catholics, taking over the Camino and making the Compostela a souvenir (my term). Except for the snide insult, I am not sure Hitt is wrong. The Catholic Church bears most of the responsibility for this, and I think it does not object to the secular nature for most pilgrims.

Officially, it is probably correct to say it is a Catholic pilgrimage for Catholics, but just a long walk for non-Catholics, and the Church is delighted for even them to call it a Pilgrimage.

Like many things in many religions, it is a contradiction that cannot answer to rationality. Hitt is a pissant pedagogue, and rather full of himself. A man wrapped up in himself makes a very small package. I don't give his blathers much credence.
 
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The 'orthodoxies' of science are methodological and do not apply to the findings or laws.[/quote]Right [I suppose :?]..., but so what about gravity and pilgrims?

Some pilgrims don't understand the gravity of their situation :wink:

I entered into this discussion not wishing to denigrate the views of other people, and I have no done so. I certainly had no intention of issuing smart aleck put downs of people who see the world in a very different way to me. I've never actually met a pilgrim on the path who would do that, even though, I have walked for many hours conversing with people who were devout and firm in their religious views. We were able to talk without any of us implying the other was deluded, or damned.

It is a pity that enthusiasm for your own view of the world led you to make that remark. I am tempted to respond in kind, but will instead withdraw. I do so not because I am smarting, I'm quite irritated at the arrogance that lies behind the pun and the wink, but I realise there is nothing to be gained in further exploration of any matter with the person who made it.

From now on I will use the forum for gaining or giving factual information.

Buen Camino

:shock: :shock: :shock:

HHmm, get a grip Tony - "Some pilgrims don't understand the gravity of their situation" is a play on the various meanings of a word and a joke - the same line can be said when someone falls over or drops something that breaks "they didn't understand the gravity of the situation" - it is called, in English, 'humour' :wink:
 
This is shamefully selective quoting, and clearly unethical in any reasonable conversation. It implies I think that there is some natural force at work in the way peoples migrate to new places. Geert might, and find this fascinating. I don't. There is a simpler and more compelling explanation, and that was the point that I was making. That would have been clear if Geert had included the critical 'not' before the text he used.

My point was that 'going west' does not need to be explained by some natural or super-natural force, when it can be explained completely as a result of a process of elimination. That is, going west
dougfitz said:
was the only place left to go, not where they were naturally drawn. (emphasis added)
Click to expand...
 
And to think that I thought English humor was like English cuisine.

American humour.
 
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The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Who knows?

Sue M said:
I think it is an experience of God without necessarily involving religion. Now, how am I going to write a sermon that says that without sounding as if I'm a sandwich short of a picnic?
Click to expand...
Hi Sue,
You already did and made my day! Feeling a lot better then yesterday! Thank you! - Who knows?
Perhaps gravity contains a message that not all has to be understood by all. The Arabic tile patterns seem to do just that and yesterday I was informed that Mozes was told the same at Mount Sinai.
I'm still working on both entries and will let you know when the next sermon is ready. :wink:
Now I'm off to the beach for coffee; anyone?
Best,
Geerτ
 
Ley lines and what Moses was told, all in one thread. Where is Shirley MacLaine now that we need some solid facts.

More American humor.
 
falcon269 said:
And to think that I thought English humor was like English cuisine.

American humour.
Click to expand...
Whatever way, if you have to explain why it was funny, it wasn't.
 
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Q
Thought it was funny your inclusion o animals I the non catholic statement above.

We are all pagans to some extent in the simplest definition of it, in that we have beliefs that are very strong lifting up other people, environment, pets, etc as our gods. It is I think on a pilgrim walk (for whatever motive) that ones gods get questioned, strengthen- as it should be.
Thanks for the discussion as I get ready to preach this morning..I'm a united Methodist Deacon who hopes to walk the Camino in either 2014/2015. I enjoy 'listening' more than 'talking' & so I hope we meet on the Camino where I can hear about your journeys.


Buen Camino
Georgia
 
Is this "officially" by Falcon or a higher authority?
Click to expand...
Officially is imprecise, I agree. By Papal Bull, currently soft-peddled by the Catholic Church, the bones are St. James, and the pilgrimage is to those bones. It was a church pilgrimage for centuries, so maybe "historically" is a better descriptor, though recent history makes that a bad descriptor as well.

From the Compostela translation I think the Catholic Church is quite clear that pietatis causa gets the indulgence, which is exclusively Catholic including the "seal of this Sacred Church," which, perhaps, does not exclude the possibility that there are other Sacred Churches.

As for my authority, Man has created God in his own image, but I make no such claim.
 
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