'Nobody owes you anything' Really?

[peregrino_tom]

It’s neither simple nor a truth.

People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.

We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.

 

[Former member 60103]

Interesting although I missed the original post. My Camino's have always been solitary. I am spiritual in some respects but not religious in any formal sense. In earlier years the concept of right thought right action appealed. Actions not done for reward or praise or because you want to get something back but simply because they were the "right thing" to do. Easy to write but harder to live up to.
I endeavoured to follow the Way adhering to this approach. Sure there was an element of "tourism" in there (how can there not be ) but also an open willingness to take in the experience at its face value.
Maybe now I have learnt as much as I could from walking Camino.Maybe now it is the time to put those lessons to good effect. I always thought that walking a Camino, any Camino, gave back one of two things or both. You either realised that you were always the person you thought you were or you moved on from that and "developed" in whatever way from the experience.
A credit card and money in the bank certainly facilitate travel and thus experience. You are correct that the Camino should not be reduced to a transaction. But whilst money does not buy happiness it can certainly solve a lot of problems. Given that as a base layer you make of life, of Camino, what you will.
Don.

 

[Turga]

But whilst money does not buy happiness it can certainly solve a lot of problems.

In an interview many years ago, the British actor Joan Collins, in response to a question from a journalist about whether money could buy happiness, responded: “Young man, if you believe money can’t buy just anything, you are shopping in the wrong places”

 

[Jagdev D.]

It’s neither simple nor a truth.

People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.

We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.

Peregrino_tom
Well said, Sir,
self respect and respect for others Any where , every day , specially a notch up on the Camino.
My two cents !
Cheers to all .

 

[JJW]

That discussion could be helpful to people who will experience this kind of common occurrence.

Not having needs met to expectations is an invitation to grow in resourcefulness. Walking a little further in that town one can find a tienda and other bars.

Those of us who are non-natives in Spain have a lot to learn about being “alien”. It becomes easier to extend consideration to non-natives in our own lands, after suffering disregard in foreign lands ourselves.

 

[Corned Beef]

The whole concept has been tested to death (literally) with COVID. Some societies would accept a duty to others. Other societies were polar opposites.

Many times a view is conditional.

Personally I echo Rosseau - no man is an island.

 

[VNwalking]

I suspect we actually agree on a lot, @peregrino_tom. And...

People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination.

We all owe many things to each other.

That would be more than nice, but I don't think it's realistic.

In a civilized society we all collectively agree to certain things, but they are not inalienable rights.
Just because we are alive human beings doesn't entitle us to be treated nicely. 'Common courtesy' is a precious thing in society, precisely because it's not a given. Kindness needs to be continually cultivated and encouraged, because there will always be people who denigrate, discriminate, or intimidate - or worse.

People can be unkind and that's just the way it is sometimes. To imagine kindness to be a human right - rather than a gift - sets us up to feel like a victim when the inevitable bad things happen. We get outraged, thinking, "How dare they!" - and the resultant anger poisons us. But understanding that kindness is not a given makes unkindness much easier to bear - not only do we not take it personally but there's inner space that allows both balanced action and moving on.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it.

Which of course is not true - you're right, Tom. It's silly.
But a the 'Zen-like' part? That's a common misunderstanding that makes me chuckle, because Zen masters can be the absolute antithesis of passive vessels. They are equanimous, but that's a totally different thing.

Equanimity in the face of the worst of human behaviour is what gives the clarity to act wisely rather than blindly react. It's what gives the space to be compassionate, too. To ourselves and the other person. And then speak and act - forcefully, if necessary - from a place of balance.

What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.

Absolutely agree! Very well said.

 

[dougfitz]

Personally I echo Rosseau - no man is an island

Not one of Rousseau's. It is from a poem by John Donne.

 

[JJW]

Not one of Rosseau's. It is from a poem by John Donne.

Donne is so cool. Good clarification, thanks! Hemingway also took a Donne line for a book title, and left out the response line that puts it into perspective.

 

[dick bird]

The whole concept has been tested to death (literally) with COVID. Some societies would accept a duty to others. Other societies were polar opposites.

Many times a view is conditional.

Personally I echo Rosseau - no man is an island.

Actually John Donne from "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions and Seuerall Steps in my Sickness – Meditation XVII", a published series of sermons (not poems as the internet persists in claiming). And just to show precisely how pedantic one can be after a heavy night: Rousseau. Otherwise I agree 100%. Society consists of and depends on mutual obligations - how do penguins survive blizzards?

 

[DoughnutANZ]

It’s neither simple nor a truth.

People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.

We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.

This is one persons approach to life.

 

[SantiagoCruzB]

In an interview many years ago, the British actor Joan Collins, in response to a question from a journalist about whether money could buy happiness, responded: “Young man, if you believe money can’t buy just anything, you are shopping in the wrong places”

In a strictly materialistic sense, maybe. But Covid taught me: money can't buy health.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions and Seuerall Steps in my Sickness – Meditation XVII", a published series of sermons (not poems as the internet persists in claiming)

There was a purpose to writing certain words using rhyme and rhythm.

 

[dougfitz]

Actually John Donne from "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions and Seuerall Steps in my Sickness – Meditation XVII", a published series of sermons (not poems as the internet persists in claiming). And just to show precisely how pedantic one can be after a heavy night: Rousseau. Otherwise I agree 100%. Society consists of and depends on mutual obligations - how do penguins survive blizzards?

Thank you @dick bird, I am regularly better informed by your contributions.

 

[Former member 49149]

Like the op of this thread, I too have pondered about replying. The locked thread he was too late to contribute to had a post by someone who in my experience always offers facts. She quoted other online sources giving evidence, opinions of users of the cafe, that the behaviour of the owner of the cafe was neither new nor isolated.
Now, to this thread: we each have a piece of the story stemming from our stance, but this kind of exchange is not really a satisfactory way to tease out points of view. Not without face to face opportunities for clarification. I have made my own mistakes along the way in this forum with reactions rather than responses, and regretted them when it was too late! I keep trying to remember not to hit send if I am incensed about something.
By the way, I am not pointing a finger at anyone. Absolutely not. Just giving a point of view. You are free to react according to yours.
One of my 'influencers', before influencers were a thing, was Paolo Freire, in his approach to human justice. I lent my copy of his Pedagogy of the Oppressed to someone and never saw it again, but had read it and seen enough of it in use not to forget its essence.

ps: a piece of wisdom from my home culture: cast your bread upon the waters when the tide is coming in - i must have missed the tide the day I lent that book!

 

[Former member 102963]

In a strictly materialistic sense, maybe. But Covid taught me: money can't buy health.

Money is one of the biggest factors in driving health. Take a look at the life expectancies of the poorest nations, or take a look at the health outcomes of societies poorest people!

 

[lalaone]

Donne is so cool. Good clarification, thanks! Hemingway also took a Donne line for a book title, and left out the response line that puts it into perspective.

Hemingway's "For Whom the Bell Tolls"? You bring this full circle, as it is also the final thought from Donne's meditation which begins by stating, "No man is an island"

Perhaps Donne's words are mistaken for a standalone poem because they express just so much, in so few words, to guide important reflections such as these even today.

No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I think someone took something I wrote and ran off with it.
I believe we all owe one another the fundamental dignity due to every living creature. Other existential debts are negotiable, and answer to all kinds of social, economic, religious and cultural differences.

"The customer is always right" is a particularly American concept. It does not translate well in many other cultures, where the shopkeeper knows he is due some dignity, too. I frequently remind our long-suffering hospitaleros on the camino that peevish "pilgrims" cannot file legal "hojas de reclamacion" complaints against the albergue or against them, because we are not a business. We are not exchanging money for services. The hospitaleros do not owe them anything but basic civility, and if the traveler demands more, he is free to seek more satisfactory shelter elsewhere.

All other extrapolations on whatever I wrote are the opinions of the extrapolator, and not necessarily mine.

 

[chinacat]

Like the op of this thread, I too have pondered about replying. The locked thread he was too late to contribute to had a post by someone who in my experience always offers facts. She quoted other online sources giving evidence, opinions of users of the cafe, that the behaviour of the owner of the cafe was neither new nor isolated.
Now, to this thread: we each have a piece of the story stemming from our stance, but this kind of exchange is not really a satisfactory way to tease out points of view. Not without face to face opportunities for clarification. I have made my own mistakes along the way in this forum with reactions rather than responses, and regretted them when it was too late! I keep trying to remember not to hit send if I am incensed about something.
By the way, I am not pointing a finger at anyone. Absolutely not. Just giving a point of view. You are free to react according to yours.
One of my 'influencers', before influencers were a thing, was Paolo Freire, in his approach to human justice. I lent my copy of his Pedagogy of the Oppressed to someone and never saw it again, but had read it and seen enough of it in use not to forget its essence.

ps: a piece of wisdom from my home culture: cast your bread upon the waters when the tide is coming in - i must have missed the tide the day I lent that book!

Might this help?

https://ia600204.us.archive.org/24/items/PedagogyOfTheOppressed-English-PauloFriere/oppressed.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260297860_Paulo_Freire's_Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed

 

[JJW]

I think someone took something I wrote and ran off with it.
I believe we all owe one another the fundamental dignity due to every living creature. Other existential debts are negotiable, and answer to all kinds of social, economic, religious and cultural differences.

"The customer is always right" is a particularly American concept. It does not translate well in many other cultures, where the shopkeeper knows he is due some dignity, too. I frequently remind our long-suffering hospitaleros on the camino that peevish "pilgrims" cannot file legal "hojas de reclamacion" complaints against the albergue or against them, because we are not a business. We are not exchanging money for services. The hospitaleros do not owe them anything but basic civility, and if the traveler demands more, he is free to seek more satisfactory shelter elsewhere.

All other extrapolations on whatever I wrote are the opinions of the extrapolator, and not necessarily mine.

Hi Rebekah,
I thought your comments were clearly stated and highly relevant since I concur with your message and its directness.
Your perspective, because of what you do everyday, is very valuable to share with pilgrims and especially with new ones who can benefit from these kinds of reality checks that add some accuracy and balance to what transpires along the Way.
Thank you for sharing your expertise.
Joe

 

[Anamiri]

It’s neither simple nor a truth.

People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.

We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.

In an ideal world it would be nice to think that common decency prevails. And a lot of the time it does.
Most people who have worked in a corporate environment know that intimidation, denigration and discrimination (sexism, racism, religion) are well alive and kicking. And although things have improved a lot even in my lifetime, there is no denying that these all exist to this day. The pay gap itself is testament to that.

As a woman, and with a mix of cultures within our family, I see and hear more horrendous remarks than most. I am often shocked when people see my external physical appearance (I'm very short, extremely blond and fair) and make the most racist remarks. What some people say when they misjudge my appearance for some type of cultural alignment is hard to believe.

I have had people speak to me, and then look horrified when they see me with my family, and realise they have literally 'put their foot in it'.

So I dont expect the world to be perfect, but I do try to behave in a respectful and decent way to others.
I shrug off most poor behaviour, and choose not to let it ruin my day.

A wise person taught me when I was younger to pick my battles - you cant fight everything.

 

[dougfitz]

if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were;

I am much more familiar with this snippet reading '... as well as any manor of thy friends or thine own were'. It seems to take on a quite different meaning if the word 'manner' is used here. I am sure this must have generated much discussion over which might the more correct word to use in modern English.

 

[Former member 49149]

"A wise person taught me when I was younger to pick my battles - you can't fight everything."
Snap!
edit - reply to @Anamiri

 

[dick bird]

I am much more familiar with this snippet reading '... as well as any manor of thy friends or thine own were'. It seems to take on a quite different meaning if the word 'manner' is used here. I am sure this must have generated much discussion over which might the more correct word to use in modern English.

‘Manor’ seems to be the spelling of the original version and has the added advantage of actually making sense, bearing in mind that several of Donne’s friends probably actually had manors.

 

[MTtoCamino]

Like many of you, I had times that I found emotionally hard/harsh from others. It is all part of the Camino, a person has to basically suck it up & walk on. As the vast encounters are so much more positive. In the big picture we get way more out of the Camino than the few exceptions.

The exception to this is the folks who are assaulted. I pray for everyone. Maybe that should be the answer to the situation that was reported.
Keith

 

[WGroleau]

We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.

Romans 13:8 Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love. For he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

I don't owe anyone anything, but I have an obligation to the One who created them to treat them as well as I can.

 

[David Tallan]

In a civilized society we all collectively agree to certain things, but they are not inalienable rights.

No human right is inalienable, in that they cannot be taken away. Unfortunately, in my lifetime and that of my parents, there have been societies that stripped some people of all rights. To require that rights need to be inalienable in order to exist is to deny the existence of human rights. I'm not quite ready to go that far. I think the things we collectively agree are the way people should treat each other do constitute rights. It is reasonable to expect humane treatment.

The difference between deserving humane treatment and being owed humane treatment is a very subtle one indeed.

That said, I think that the commonly expressed sentiment that pilgrims are not "owed" things is a response to a sense of entitlement that many people seem to bring to their pilgrimage. Which is generally the idea that pilgrims are owed a lot more than other visitors or guests to a community. That's an idea worth pushing back against. The pushback was reasonably suggesting gratitude for what a pilgrim receives. Gratitude is rarely a bad thing.

It seems to me that the idea that we should expect humane treatment in no way conflicts with the idea that we should be grateful for humane treatment when we receive it.

 

[VNwalking]

Absolutely, @David Tallan.
Especially resonting with:

That's an idea worth pushing back against.

Gratitude is rarely a bad thing.