New Anglican Centre proposed for Santiago de Compostela

[Rod Murray]

Here is a link to an article appearing in the Anglican Church of Canada Journal from earlier this year about a proposal for an Anglican Centre in SdC.

http://www.anglicanjournal.com/articles/new-anglican-centre-proposed-for-santiago-de-compostela

In it the Secretary to the Anglican Bishop of Spain states that there are more Protestants than Catholics on the Camino and one of the intentions of such a Centre would be a place for Protestants to receive the Eucharist in SdC. Are there statistics available anywhere that would further substantiate this claim?

 

[nycwalking]

OMG, I am an Episopalian from USA, who would love to see an Anglican presence on Camino. As a C.F. 5 time veteran and future Via/Sanabres walker hope proposal comes about. But, I am not so certain more Protestants versus Catholics on route.

 

[Bradypus]

I find the claim that Protestants now outnumber Catholics on the Camino very surprising. Reading the published statistics for 2015 from the pilgrim office Spain is still by far the largest single nationality (46.6%) and very few Spanish people would describe themselves as Protestant. It is possibly true amongst Americans and other Anglophone nationalities though these are far smaller groups. Oddly I cannot now recall whether the pilgrim office in Santiago records a pilgrim's religious denomination. I think not and the information does not appear in the annual summary stats. They would seem the most dependable source of information.

https://oficinadelperegrino.com/en/statistics/

 

[BarbaraEF]

We are one Quaker, one Anglican. As a Quaker I don't take part in the Eucharist, but my Anglican husband does, even in Catholic churches. He was a bit taken aback by the announcement in SdC in the cathedral, that only baptised Catholics could participate - even though this is probably technically accurate, it seemed a bit unfriendly, especially as he was made welcome at other small churches on our two caminos so far. His comment on this suggestion is that an Anglican centre in SdC doesn't seem "quite right" as part of the joy of the Camino is sharing in the tradition.

 

[nycwalking]

I am Episcopalian, and always took communion along the route and in Santiago. Sometimes, I announced my Protestant faith and was usually told Bishops made allowances for non-Catholic pilgrims. I am sorry to hear Santiago's announcement that only RCs can receive. Kinda like walking a path of faith yet, having door slammed in your face at end-of- line.

 

[Bradypus]

The complicated and highly emotive issue of communion for non-Catholics has been discussed at some length on this forum before. A difficult problem which I would respectfully suggest is far more involved than "seemed a little unfriendly" would imply. While setting up an Anglican chaplaincy to offer a sacramental ministry to Protestant pilgrims may at first sight seem a retrograde and divisive step I think that it would simply be a practical pastoral response to a sad reality. Like it or not the division exists - so how should the various churches best deal with it?

 

[Rod Murray]

I am Episcopalian, and always took communion along the route and in Santiago. Sometimes, I announced my Protestant faith and was usually told Bishops made allowances for non-Catholic pilgrims. I am sorry to hear Santiago's announcement that only RCs can receive. Kinda like walking a path of faith yet, having door slammed in your face at end-of- line.

I too am Anglican, and am married to a Catholic. We were married in a Catholic ceremony by my wife's cousin, a Jesuit, and assisted by a friend, and Anglican priest. We have attended an Anglican Church for 25 years. However, I usually receive Communion at Catholic services and ignore the "Catholics only" announcements. I couldn't fathom walking into Santiago and not attending Mass at the Cathedral, and not being fully part of it. If that seems disrespectful to Catholic doctrine, so be it. I see it as my little attempt to unify. (Aside- two of the 4 priests in my Anglican Parish are former Catholic priests). There are many who may feel unwelcome, as did our friends with whom we walked the Camino, and left the Cathedral during the Eucharist. There will be many who would like a place of worship that might be a more comfortable setting in SdC. We shall see if they can raise the funds to do it.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Before commenting on the original post might I say that it seems to me that the announcement in question in the cathedral of Santiago is as much aimed at Catholics as others. It is a stern reminder that communicants should have been to confession and have fasted for at least one hour. Unnecessary, unhelpful and unfriendly - I couldn't possibly comment.

As for the proposed expenditure of several million euros to open an Anglican ministry in Santiago I think this is fiction. Firstly the cathedral provides a chapel for visiting Anglican clergy to have Eucharist. Secondly there are no records whatsoever regarding the religious denomination of pilgrims and finally I'd have thought a ministry to pilgrims on the way to Santiago might be more needed than another expensive building.

 

[Saint Mike II]

We are one Quaker, one Anglican. As a Quaker I don't take part in the Eucharist, but my Anglican husband does, even in Catholic churches. He was a bit taken aback by the announcement in SdC in the cathedral, that only baptised Catholics could participate - even though this is probably technically accurate, it seemed a bit unfriendly, especially as he was made welcome at other small churches on our two caminos so far. His comment on this suggestion is that an Anglican centre in SdC doesn't seem "quite right" as part of the joy of the Camino is sharing in the tradition.

Hola Barbara - I am a very poor Catholic & my Spanish is even less but I have never actually been asked if I was a Catholic before I was allowed to take communion. I doubt the Cathedral could cope if every single person seeking communion was asked "are you a baptised Catholic??" My advice - if you (or your husband) are practicing Christians, in good standing with your home church then you are able to participate fully in the mass. (BTW - if you get to England - go the Canterbury Cathedral - you will notice that there is very little difference between "High Church of England" services and a Catholic Mass!) Cheers

 

[williamlittig]

I am catholic (lower case "c") meaning universal and I wish all well......Ultreya.... Willy/Utah/USA

 

[alaskadiver]

The complicated and highly emotive issue of communion for non-Catholics has been discussed at some length on this forum before. A difficult problem which I would respectfully suggest is far more involved than "seemed a little unfriendly" would imply. While setting up an Anglican chaplaincy to offer a sacramental ministry to Protestant pilgrims may at first sight seem a retrograde and divisive step I think that it would simply be a practical pastoral response to a sad reality. Like it or not the division exists - so how should the various churches best deal with it?

The division will continue as long as Protestants do not believe in Transubstantiation. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It seems like a minor thing but it was a major issue and one of the causes of the Reformation. I think that Anglicans should continue doing whatever they've been doing at the cathedral. God knows what's in your heart, regardless of Canon Law.
Disclaimer: I'm a non practicing Catholic who has been confirmed and received the sacrament of marriage. I just don't buy into the man made doctrine.

 

[Tia Valeria]

As far as I am aware Anglican and Catholic churches recognise one another's baptism so that in itself is not a barrier. The need to be baptised is a requirement of both to receive the sacrament, and in the Anglican church you also have to have been confirmed or awaiting confirmation.

 

[Bradypus]

Setting aside any complex theological debates for me personally there is a very simple moral issue here. As an Anglican I am always aware of being to some extent a guest when in a Catholic church. If I receive the many precious gifts which I am freely and generously offered there with thanks then I am a friend and a brother. If I take something precious which I have been refused or denied then I am a thief.

I agree with @JohnnieWalker that the idea of spending such a large sum on a dedicated Anglican centre seems ludicrous: a overpriced sledgehammer to crack a fairly small nut. The generous hospitality which the cathedral has shown in the past to visitors of other denominations suggests a simpler and more modest approach.

 

[oursonpolaire]

I really do not know where they got the notion that the majority of pilgrims, even English-speaking pilgrims, were Protestant. I spent an hour or two trying to figure out the likely proportion of Protestants against Catholics (for the sake of argument, I included the Anglicans among the Protestants, although there are many Anglicans who would contest this) and came up with 20-25% for Protestants, about 65% for RCs, and 5% for other religions (among which I put Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and the increasing numbers of Orthodox), and the remainder of no affiliation whatsoever. I took the numbers of pilgrims from each country, and then simply applied the census figures for religion to each one--- it's a method which can be fairly criticized, but it will give us rough figures. I know the makeup of Canadian pilgrims quite well, and I estimated a majority of RCs there.

In any case, the cathedral and diocesan authorities in Santiago have been hospitable in providing chapels for the use of groups of Anglican pilgrims-- I'm really not sure where this initiative comes from.

 

[Albertagirl]

I really do not know where they got the notion that the majority of pilgrims, even English-speaking pilgrims, were Protestant. I spent an hour or two trying to figure out the likely proportion of Protestants against Catholics (for the sake of argument, I included the Anglicans among the Protestants, although there are many Anglicans who would contest this) and came up with 20-25% for Protestants, about 65% for RCs, and 5% for other religions (among which I put Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and the increasing numbers of Orthodox), and the remainder of no affiliation whatsoever. I took the numbers of pilgrims from each country, and then simply applied the census figures for religion to each one--- it's a method which can be fairly criticized, but it will give us rough figures. I know the makeup of Canadian pilgrims quite well, and I estimated a majority of RCs there.

In any case, the cathedral and diocesan authorities in Santiago have been hospitable in providing chapels for the use of groups of Anglican pilgrims-- I'm really not sure where this initiative comes from.

@oursonpolaire
I don't know where the initiative is coming from either, but I have certainly felt the need. I have walked two caminos to Santiago, the first from St Jean pied de Port last year and the second from Oloron Ste Marie (I'm back for two weeks.) Like other solo Anglican pilgrims, I have had no official access to the eucharist during the time of my pilgrimage or at its end. I do not know what percentage of Anglican pilgrims travel in a group with an ordained chaplain, but I was not one of them. By the time that I arrived in Santiago, I was desperate to receive communion. For personal religious reasons, I felt called to receive communion once on each communion, and I responded to that call, somewhat guiltily (not in Santiago, where rejection is verbalized). On neither occasion was there any possibility of asking the priest for permission in advance. No, the Roman Catholic Church does not owe me anything in this regard; churches with pilgrim masses have always welcomed me as a pilgrim and given me their blessing. But perhaps the Anglican Church does. If there are Anglicans there who follow the camino as pilgrims, their church owes them ministry. The Anglican Communion is worldwide, and does even have some opportunities for communal worship in Spain (Pamplona?). I think it is appropriate for the Anglican Church to offer opportunities for the eucharist to its own members and to any other Christians who may receive communion according to Anglican practice, perhaps on a chaplaincy basis and with continuing respect for the Catholic Church and its major role on the camino.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Setting aside any complex theological debates for me personally there is a very simple moral issue here. As an Anglican I am always aware of being to some extent a guest when in a Catholic church. If I receive the many precious gifts which I am freely and generously offered there with thanks then I am a friend and a brother. If I take something precious which I have been refused or denied then I am a thief.
.

Absolutely agreeing with Bradypus.

Why oh why would any one take something that has no meaning to you (the Protestant Church turned away from the belief in transhumance) and is sacred to others? Because the ritual is similar? If instead of eating a wafer or piece of bred, the Catholic Church did something different, something unpleasing for example, would non Catholics be hearing the calling to participate?

Has the Camino not taught people about respect, about generosity, about checking egos at the door? So why oh why take communion in a Catholic church unless you have been invited to, and especially when you have been asked not to? Must people insult the very same organisation/faith that has given them the Camino?

"It's my Camino" until the very end. Alas the penny has not dropped.

 

[BarbaraEF]

Hola Barbara - I am a very poor Catholic & my Spanish is even less but I have never actually been asked if I was a Catholic before I was allowed to take communion. I doubt the Cathedral could cope if every single person seeking communion was asked "are you a baptised Catholic??" My advice - if you (or your husband) are practicing Christians, in good standing with your home church then you are able to participate fully in the mass. (BTW - if you get to England - go the Canterbury Cathedral - you will notice that there is very little difference between "High Church of England" services and a Catholic Mass!) Cheers

Thank you Saint Mike! We live in the UK and we know that High Anglicans are very like Catholics. And even though I am a Quaker, I enjoy Catholic Mass whenever I do attend. (I am also a Lutheran, as well as a Quaker, as it happens.)

 

[oursonpolaire]

Albertagirl- Currently the small Spanish Episcopal Church only has five congregations on the Camino-- in Pamplona on the Francese, Bilbao on the del Norte, Oviedo on the Primitivo, Saragossa on the Camino del Ebro, and Salamanca on the de la Plata (contact information at: http://www.anglicanos.org/web_iglesia_anglicana/paginas/de_descripcion.php). There are also chaplaincies of the Church of England's Diocese of Europe on the Camino-- in France in Biarritz, Auch, Toulouse, Bordeaux, and Saint Jean d'Angely, and in Spain there are 79 chaplaincies, mainly on the southeastern coast, but also in Madrid, Barcelona, and Girona.

I have run into quite a few Anglican clergy, several with groups of pilgrims, over the years-- AFAIK twice the chapel of Sant' Andres at the Cathedral has been provided for the use of English bishops leading groups of pilgrims. Certainly, there would be room for an Anglican presence in Santiago, and the Camino Chaplaincy, which has coordinated volunteer RC priests for the very succesful English-language masses at the Cathedral, has been looking for an Anglican pilgrim priest and would very much like to hear from a pilgrim in Anglican orders who would be happy to do services for accommodation. Resources for an Anglican Centre, or even resources for thinking about it, could be better expended on (say) a one-stop web-page for Anglicans on the Camino, providing service times, etc.

The Orthodox presence is much stronger on account of the large expatriate communities and the agreement between the Spanish RC bishops and the Romanian Patriarchate, but that's explored on another thread.

 

[BarbaraEF]

Absolutely agreeing with Bradypus.

Why oh why would any one take something that has no meaning to you (the Protestant Church turned away from the belief in transhumance) and is sacred to others? Because the ritual is similar? If instead of eating a wafer or piece of bred, the Catholic Church did something different, something unpleasing for example, would non Catholics be hearing the calling to participate?

Has the Camino not taught people about respect, about generosity, about checking egos at the door? So why oh why take communion in a Catholic church unless you have been invited to, and especially when you have been asked not to? Must people insult the very same organisation/faith that has given them the Camino?

"It's my Camino" until the very end. Alas the penny has not dropped.

I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way, but where we live in the UK, a lot of people at the grass roots are quite relaxed about Anglican / Catholic communion-sharing. Obviously if it is made clear that the particular church does not welcome this, it doesn't happen. We all come from different backgrounds and are used to different approaches.

 

[Bogong]

It's very difficult for me to express my understanding of this without appearing to infer criticism of some dogma and thus infringing site rules, and it's one I've thought long and hard about previously on this topic and deliberately refrained from. I'll try very hard not to infringe

But rather than reflect on what the edicts of different denominations may say, for me it has come to come down (ouch!) to what the Eucharist means for me personally, and to my relationship with Christ, so bear with me, and I'll leave it this time to the Moderators to decide whether or not to delete.

It has to do with the teaching that the church (i.e. the body of believers) is the Bride of Christ. I have been taught that in Christ's time, if a young man wished to marry, he would first discuss the matter with the father of the intended. Things would then proceed to a meal, at which the young man would take a glass of wine, sip from it, and then pass it to his intended. She was free to either drink from it or refuse. If she drank from it, it was a sign of acceptance, and the intended relationship was consecrated. After this, he would return to his father's house and prepare a place for her, then come back to take her there.

Hence the imagery at the Last Supper, where the disciples were effectively asked to join Christ's church in a consecrated "bridal" relationship. In this sense the "I am going to prepare a place for you…I will come back and take you to myself.." implies an immediate relationship more so than an eschatological one.

As an Anglican, I have never been in a situation where I was refused Communion in another church. It would disturb me deeply if this happened as for me it would signify a rejection from Christ's church, i.e. I was not welcome or wanted. In such a case I could never regard a proffered blessing offered in lieu as valid. Likewise, if I refrained from taking Communion I would, in myself, have to wrestle with whether or not I was rejecting an offer to be a part of Christ's family.

These are personal views but result from a lot of thought and to me have more meaning than any particular denominational dogma on the matter which might give me misgivings.

So let's see how it goes with the Moderators.

De Colores

Bogong

 

[JohnnieWalker]

I'd like to make two points from the discussion above:

1 The Camino Chaplaincy has been trying to identify an Anglican priest who has made the pilgrimage to Santiago who with the support of the Anglican Bishop of Europe might be willing to come to Santiago for a trial period of 6 months. We would discuss with them how we might assist in finding accommodation and a worship space. We suggest a trial period because in the absence of statistics we don't know whether there would be sufficient demand for this ministry to ensure its viability. We also have to resolve the debate on whether different religious traditions should have separate facilities or whether there may be a way and a place for them to work more closely together.

2 On the issue of intercommunion like Bogong I have never contributed to these discussions - they are almost too personal and the divisions articulated too painful. However I believe that whilst there are "rules" regarding these matters there is also a very respectable position held by many within the Roman Catholic Church and other traditions that the Internal Forum is supreme - and it is this Forum, the relationship with God which Bogong eloquently describes. I say be guided by the rules but decide on whether or not to go to communion according to your conscience.

 

[VNwalking]

Interfaith and ecumenical dialog are essential if we are to continue to survive all together as too many human beings in an increasingly crowded world. So I celebrate whatever and however this can happen.

So @JohnnieWalker , thank you to you and Reb and whomever else is behind the Camino Chaplancy for stepping into the breech. I imagine it can be a delicate dance.

From the outside looking in, I don't understand the ecclesiastic subtleties of what you're talking about, but do understand that it matters rather a lot to those in the discussion. The only thing that matters to me is that you are all doing it--communicating and finding ways to work together with differing others towards a greater good. Here in the Forum, in Santiago, and in the larger world.

Bravo. Well done.

 

[Albertagirl]

1 The Camino Chaplaincy has been trying to identify an Anglican priest who has made the pilgrimage to Santiago who with the support of the Anglican Bishop of Europe might be willing to come to Santiago for a trial period of 6 months. We would discuss with them how we might assist in finding accommodation and a worship space. We suggest a trial period because in the absence of statistics we don't know whether there would be sufficient demand for this ministry to ensure its viability.

@JohnnieWalker
Thanks to the Camino Chaplaincy for the effort to initiate a trial period of Anglican ministry in Santiago. As this would be initially for only six months, I do not think that there is any chance that I could benefit from it. Both my caminos have ended in Santiago in November, which I suspect would be outside of any trial period. A real trial of Anglican ministry might look more like the ministry elements of Pilgrim House, where I have participated in group reflection on my camino after both my pilgrimages. Their commitment does not seem to depend on response to their ministry, which is supported by the services which they offer and which have made them well known among pilgrims. I don't actually know where they receive funding. I was surprised to speak to a staff member a couple of weeks ago, who said that she was paid staff and not a volunteer.
I am tentatively suggesting that Anglican ministry in Santiago might look a little different from simply finding an ordained Anglican to provide liturgical services to Anglican pilgrims. Perhaps the chaplaincy has already gone beyond this model. I would be curious to find out.

 

[oursonpolaire]

From what I can gather about the proposal, they were looking at the Anglican Centre in Rome as a model-- this involves a study and resource centre as well as a high-level ecclesiastical diplomat (the Centre is usually directed by a retired bishop). Obviously, the representational aspect would be superfluous, and I am not sure if there would be much use for a study and resource centre - I have been impressed with the approach and services offered by Pilgrim House, which is a project of International Teams (a US-based evangelical group, which has Canadian and Spanish entities associated) and would personally prefer to see ways of collaboration between and with organizations rather than establishing new ones, but as Johnnie Walker noted "we have to resolve the debate on whether different religious traditions should have separate facilities or whether there may be a way and a place for them to work more closely together."

And, of course, we still don't know if Anglican numbers warrant a presence- so I am interested to see if the Camino Chaplaincy can do a pilot project and how that works out. Perhaps if Albertagirl could give us an idea of what more might be involved than liturgical support to Anglicans?? This could be a helpful start to a discussion.

 

[Bradypus]

And, of course, we still don't know if Anglican numbers warrant a presence- so I am interested to see if the Camino Chaplaincy can do a pilot project and how that works out. Perhaps if Albertagirl could give us an idea of what more might be involved than liturgical support to Anglicans?? This could be a helpful start to a discussion.

It is probably worth observing that the Anglican eucharist is open to Christians of other traditions. Lutherans, Methodists, Reformed and many others are welcome to receive the sacrament and I can see no reason why an Anglican chaplaincy should not welcome them too. The potential pool of those to be served is therefore considerably wider than Anglicans alone.

 

[Tia Valeria]

We had a preacher at church last month who had been to an ecumenical meeting in Sweden. Present were leaders of the Lutheran and other Protestant churches, and Pope Frances.
The tone of the meeting was reconciliation and looking forward together. In the face of world situations we are Christians and need to emphasize or points of unity rather than divisions. with a lovely speech by Pope Frances and others about apologising for the wrongs we have done one another in the past.

That has always seemed to me to be the spirit felt in Santiago and hopefully we will continue to move forward together as pilgrims.

 

[rector]

As far as I am aware Anglican and Catholic churches recognise one another's baptism so that in itself is not a barrier. The need to be baptised is a requirement of both to receive the sacrament, and in the Anglican church you also have to have been confirmed or awaiting confirmation.

Hi Tia this is totally correct, as an Anglican priest in N Ireland I have often been required to supply confirmation of baptism, for weddings, to my brothers in the Roman Catholic Priesthood and this is because Anglicans/ Episcopalians are Catholic whilst not Roman Catholic.

 

[JabbaPapa]

but my Anglican husband does, even in Catholic churches.

He really shouldn't, not at Catholic Mass.

But ...

He was a bit taken aback by the announcement in SdC in the cathedral, that only baptised Catholics could participate - even though this is probably technically accurate, it seemed a bit unfriendly, especially as he was made welcome at other small churches on our two caminos so far.

There is a very old indulgence that while they are on the Camino non-Catholic Christians may take the Eucharist IF they affirm belief in the Real Presence, and IF they are in a sufficient state of Sacramental Grace (ie they have confessed recently enough and are not in a state of mortal sin). It seems that this does not apply to the Cathedral.

And it's not "unfriendly", Catholics too may from time to time find themselves in conditions of being unable to take Communion.

Put simply, Communion is not a "right" accorded to everyone in Catholic Dogma. Your expression "probably technically accurate" is quite mistaken, the inability of some to take Communion is not founded in "probable technicalities", but on the worthiness of the Faithful to partake of the Flesh and Blood of Christ Himself.

His comment on this suggestion is that an Anglican centre in SdC doesn't seem "quite right" as part of the joy of the Camino is sharing in the tradition.

The Holy Mass is not centred around the Camino de Santiago, not even in Compostela ... I can understand your husband's more ecumenical beliefs, but they do not belong to the Catholic Church.

Having said that the Spiritual Communion, which is a deep and genuine Communion with the Faithful and the Church and with God, and with all of Santiago's Pilgrims, is not closed to anyone.

 

[JabbaPapa]

It is probably worth observing that the Anglican eucharist is open to Christians of other traditions. Lutherans, Methodists, Reformed and many others are welcome to receive the sacrament and I can see no reason why an Anglican chaplaincy should not welcome them too. The potential pool of those to be served is therefore considerably wider than Anglicans alone.

As a Catholic, I would not be able to partake of such communions, regardless of the openness proposed.

 

[rector]

I'd like to make two points from the discussion above:

1 The Camino Chaplaincy has been trying to identify an Anglican priest who has made the pilgrimage to Santiago who with the support of the Anglican Bishop of Europe might be willing to come to Santiago for a trial period of 6 months. We would discuss with them how we might assist in finding accommodation and a worship space. We suggest a trial period because in the absence of statistics we don't know whether there would be sufficient demand for this ministry to ensure its viability. We also have to resolve the debate on whether different religious traditions should have separate facilities or whether there may be a way and a place for them to work more closely together.

2 On the issue of intercommunion like Bogong I have never contributed to these discussions - they are almost too personal and the divisions articulated too painful. However I believe that whilst there are "rules" regarding these matters there is also a very respectable position held by many within the Roman Catholic Church and other traditions that the Internal Forum is supreme - and it is this Forum, the relationship with God which Bogong eloquently describes. I say be guided by the rules but decide on whether or not to go to communion according to your conscience.

Hi Johnnie Wonderful to hear Sign me up! My wife (A Parish reader) and I have walked from St Jean twice, Sarria once and next year, with our granddaughter , Ponferrada to Santiago. I reach retirement age in two weeks time!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bradypus]

As a Catholic, I would not be able to partake of such communions, regardless of the openness proposed.

I think that as a Catholic you should not find it difficult to find an acceptable alternative in a city like Santiago.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I think that as a Catholic you should not find it difficult to find an acceptable alternative in a city like Santiago.

I wish I could "like" that more than once !!

 

[alaskadiver]

!!!!! erm ...

Far from being a "minor thing", the Real Presence of Christ in Eucharist is the very heart of the Holy Mass. Deny it, and you simply cannot take Communion.

Exactly. But for those who don't understand that it may seem a minor thing. Obviously not for Catholics.

 

[grayland]

With all due apologies to @JohnnieWalker....

The thread has lost all coherent content. The discussion has turned very personal and insulting.
The thread is being locked for that reason...not because of the subject matter.

 

[grayland]

With all due apologies to @JohnnieWalker....

The thread has lost all coherent content. The discussion has turned very personal and insulting.
The thread is being locked for that reason...not because of the subject matter.

Most of the offending posts have been deleted.

 

[grayland]

The thread has been reopened at the request of several members wishing to discuss the proposal of a new Anglican Center in Santiago.

In order to stay open the posts must stay on the original topic and not stray off in to individual religious discussions...which are in violation of the Forum Rules.

Please stay on topic!

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Grayland - thank you very much for this. Can I say to fellow members of the forum that since the beginning of my time on this forum I've thought it odd that since we talk about the Pilgrimage to Santiago one of the rules of the forum discourages discussions about religion. Yet the truth of the matter is that over the years it is these very discussions which have ended up with people being intolerant, disrespectful and at times downright insulting of others religious beliefs. I think that more threads discussing the religious aspects of the pilgrimage have been locked than any others. For this reason I have tended not to participate in these discussions.

Clearly the Moderators who are all volunteers are concerned to ensure that discussions remain temperate and polite and I can assure you that none of us are exempt from being asked to withdraw or rephrase opinions which might upset others. The biggest problem it seems to me is when the discussion moves drastically away from the original post. So a plea to my fellow members - can we all try to keep to the point and think twice about the words we use to disagree with each other especially in this area which often concerns personal religious beliefs? Respect for each other must be paramount.

And with reference to the original post. Here is some news:


The Iglesia Española Reformada Episcopal (the Reformed Episcopal Church of Spain) has stepped up its welcome to pilgrims undertaking the Camino de Santiago by dedicating its cathedral in Madrid as a welcome centre. The Church’s Bishop, Carlos López-Lozano, consecrated a symbolic tile adjacent to the cathedral’s door on Saturday night as a sign of welcome for pilgrims. The move is seen as a step on the Church’s own journey to build an Anglican centre in Santiago'.


“Bienvenido todos” – Anglicans in Spain welcome pilgrims on the Camino de Santiago
Anglican Communion News Service
ANGLICANNEWS.ORG

 

[wayfarer]

The biggest problem it seems to me is when the discussion moves drastically away from the original post. So a plea to my fellow members - can we all try to keep to the point and think twice about the words we use to disagree with each other especially in this area which often concerns personal religious beliefs? Respect for each other must be paramount.

Perfectly put, I wish I could give 100 likes for this.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I love the idea of having a Welcome Center in Madrid. Those getting off the plane could stop in, pick up their credencial, get a blessing and perhaps be briefed on the particuliarties of Catholics and the meaning communion has for them. They could also be informed of the services held at the Cathedral that are for non-Catholics, and perhpas even about Pilgrim House. More services for some, less disregard towards the requests of the Santiago cathedral, and perhaps other congregations along the Camino.

 

[SabsP]

I love the idea of having a Welcome Center in Madrid. Those getting off the plane could stop in, pick up their credencial, get a blessing and perhaps be briefed on the particuliarties of Catholics and the meaning communion has for them. They could also be informed of the services held at the Cathedral that are for non-Catholics, and perhpas even about Pilgrim House. More services for some, less disregard towards the requests of the Santiago cathedral, and perhaps other congregations along the Camino.

Interesting idea. I know that every airport has a chapel. Maybe that would be a good place?

 

[Rod Murray]

Two more links that come from the Anglican Journal that may have relevance to this thread:

Archbishop of Canterbury and Pope Francis met in October-
http://www.anglicanjournal.ctheom/articles/anglican-catholic-co-operation-continues-despite-differences

The Anglican Centre is Rome needs a new representative since the present one is retiring:
http://www.anglicanjournal.com/arti...st-of-director-of-the-anglican-centre-in-rome

I suppose that since there are Anglican Centres in Rome and Jerusalem, the idea of having one in Santiago makes sense (although the cost may make it difficult to realize).

 

[oursonpolaire]

The Anglican Centre in Rome, which is a really interesting institution, is basically an ecclesiastical diplomatic mission. It was founded after the meetings between Abp Michael Ramsey and Pope Paul VI-- both sensed a need for a basis for continued discussions, and as well an opportunity for RC theologians and clerics to learn more about Anglicanism. I'm not sure that we have the same needs in Santiago. The proposal so far is essentially a proposal to investigate the idea and its proponents have found some US funding to do so. My concern is that its basic planks are rickety-- as noted above, we need to figure out if we want denominationally-specific resources in Santiago and, as we used to say in my former bureaucratic life, we need to go a gap analysis-- that is, figure out what is missing and what gaps in support of pilgrims we need to address. If the exercise goes in that direction, it might be very useful; it's just that I'm not certain if we should be thinking of doing a Santiago version of the Palazzo Doria Pamphilj.

 

[LydiaF1963]

I sat in many a chapel and listened to morning or evening prayer via podcast during my camino. I attend a couple pilgrim's masses as well, but didn't take the host. In one, the priest tried to insist, then blessed me when I shook my head. I speak Spanish well enough to follow, but would have live the oppotunity to partake of the Anglican liturgy in English. I hope it comes to pass.

 

[jmcarp]

I'd like to make two points from the discussion above:

1 The Camino Chaplaincy has been trying to identify an Anglican priest who has made the pilgrimage to Santiago who with the support of the Anglican Bishop of Europe might be willing to come to Santiago for a trial period of 6 months. We would discuss with them how we might assist in finding accommodation and a worship space. We suggest a trial period because in the absence of statistics we don't know whether there would be sufficient demand for this ministry to ensure its viability. We also have to resolve the debate on whether different religious traditions should have separate facilities or whether there may be a way and a place for them to work more closely together.

2 On the issue of intercommunion like Bogong I have never contributed to these discussions - they are almost too personal and the divisions articulated too painful. However I believe that whilst there are "rules" regarding these matters there is also a very respectable position held by many within the Roman Catholic Church and other traditions that the Internal Forum is supreme - and it is this Forum, the relationship with God which Bogong eloquently describes. I say be guided by the rules but decide on whether or not to go to communion according to your conscience.

There have been many sincere and thought-provoking responses to the topic under discussion, but IMO Johnnie's response breaks down the two basic issues quite succinctly and hits the nail on the head on both.

 

[Camino with Kids]

I'm Anglican/Mennonite so would love a Anglican place of worship in Santiago. We enjoyed attending the mass in the cathedral but did not partake in communion as I have always understood Catholic communion to be for baptized Catholics based on the theological differences in interpretation of the body and the blood.

 

[DurhamParish]

This is exciting news. I hope the Anglican Communion somehow gets this going. I will certainly do what I can to help.

 

[Rod Murray]

Here is a link to an article appearing in the Anglican Church of Canada Journal from earlier this year about a proposal for an Anglican Centre in SdC.

http://www.anglicanjournal.com/articles/new-anglican-centre-proposed-for-santiago-de-compostela
In it the Secretary to the Anglican Bishop of Spain states that there are more Protestants than Catholics on the Camino and one of the intentions of such a Centre would be a place for Protestants to receive the Eucharist in SdC. Are there statistics available anywhere that would further substantiate this claim?

An update about a planned Anglican Centre in Santiago de Compostela appears in the March edition of the Anglican Journal:

Pack light, and be open to the road: Lessons from a medieval pilgrimage route

The article also includes an interview with 9 time Canadian Pilgrim Austin Cooke.

 

[alexwalker]

Setting aside any complex theological debates for me personally there is a very simple moral issue here. As an Anglican I am always aware of being to some extent a guest when in a Catholic church. If I receive the many precious gifts which I am freely and generously offered there with thanks then I am a friend and a brother. If I take something precious which I have been refused or denied then I am a thief.

I agree with @JohnnieWalker that the idea of spending such a large sum on a dedicated Anglican centre seems ludicrous: a overpriced sledgehammer to crack a fairly small nut. The generous hospitality which the cathedral has shown in the past to visitors of other denominations suggests a simpler and more modest approach.

I am thankful for what I receive from the Camino as it is. You say it much better than I can. Thank you.

 

[Peregrina Sacerdotisa]

I'd like to make two points from the discussion above:

1 The Camino Chaplaincy has been trying to identify an Anglican priest who has made the pilgrimage to Santiago who with the support of the Anglican Bishop of Europe might be willing to come to Santiago for a trial period of 6 months. We would discuss with them how we might assist in finding accommodation and a worship space.

Hello Johnnie Walker,
I am a compostela-certified Anglican priest from Canada: Pamplona to Santiago (2014), Santiago to Muxia (2015), O'Cebreiro to Santiago (2016). I would be interested in hearing more about the possibility of coming to Santiago for a 6 month trial period. How can I find out more?

 

[natefaith]

Apologies if this article was posted recently here on the Forum. It looks like they are still moving forward with plans for the center: https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2...h-an-anglican-centre-for-camino-pilgrims.aspx

 

[oursonpolaire]

Apologies if this article was posted recently here on the Forum. It looks like they are still moving forward with plans for the center: https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2...h-an-anglican-centre-for-camino-pilgrims.aspx

I saw the article when it came out: I thought it puzzling that there was no reference to the existing Anglican chaplaincy at Santa Susana's, as many US Episcopal church members, including clergy and bishops, have participated in services there. US$23,594 is a fair distance from US$5 million.

 

[SYates]

It will take a while until that project is realized ;-) Meanwhile we are already preparing for our third season, see https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...n-camino-chaplaincy-preparing-for-2020.65426/

BC SY

 

[daveag]

Yup. That’s nuts that there’s not a collaboration. As a United Methodist clergy, myself, I’d love to see the rubric for chaplains to be expanded to include others of us not in the Anglican Communion but still in the broader Anglican tradition to help out.

 

[SYates]

Yup. That’s nuts that there’s not a collaboration. As a United Methodist clergy, myself, I’d love to see the rubric for chaplains to be expanded to include others of us not in the Anglican Communion but still in the broader Anglican tradition to help out.

@daveag Actually non-Anglican-Clergy can volunteer with us, being licensed under the 'Ecumenical Canons (preaching and pastoral care). At the moment the situation is that I/we can offer accommodation only on a limited base, so preference is given to those that can celebrate the sacraments for an Anglican chaplaincy BUT if you are willing to 'look after yourself' in that regard or if you can do a stint when I don't have all rooms occupied, you are more than welcome to join us. Also, at least in the UK, Methodists and Anglicans are making excellent progress in terms of full communion, so there is hope and I am looking very much forward to it!

BC SY

 

[natefaith]

I saw the article when it came out: I thought it puzzling that there was no reference to the existing Anglican chaplaincy at Santa Susana's, as many US Episcopal church members, including clergy and bishops, have participated in services there. US$23,594 is a fair distance from US$5 million.

I was curious as well if the article would mention @SYates and the Camino Chaplaincy's excellent work so far.

@SYates - are the two groups (yours and the US Anglicans) two different "streams" of the Anglican church? Might they be folded into what you're already doing in SdC? (This is probably a good conversation in person, but for the benefit of the larger Forum I'm putting you on the spot ). It seems like they could work together with you instead of starting something new and expensive...but there might very well be a good reason for launching on their own. I think many here are curious about that, IF you have any light to shed.

 

[SYates]

Yes, all part of the Anglican Communion, but different churches. As for 'merging' that would be a bishop-to-bishop topic and therefore far above my pay grade (not that I get paid anything!).

BC SY

 

[Bradypus]

@SYates - are the two groups (yours and the US Anglicans) two different "streams" of the Anglican church?

There are two separate but complementary Anglican jurisdictions in Spain. The Church of England's Diocese in Europe provides English-language Anglican chaplaincies mostly for resident ex-pats and holidaymakers. There is also an independent Spanish-language province with permanent parishes for a relatively small number of Spanish Anglicans: the Iglesia Española Reformada Episcopal. The current Anglican Camino Chaplaincy is run in association with the Church of England Diocese in Europe while the project being proposed by the US Anglican group is intended to be a joint project of ECUSA and IERE.

 

[natefaith]

I've locked this thread upon request.

Thanks @SYates and @Bradypus for your clarifications!