My ethical dilemma regarding a compostela

[timr]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[nycwalking]

Um!

Beware of being so spiritually minded you are no Earthly good.

You are walking.

You are walking and collecting requisite sellos per day.

You made a mistake whilst ambulating towards your goal.

Your earned Compostela awaits.

Timr: Buen camino

 

[timr]

Um!

Beware of being so spiritually minded you are no Earthly good.

You are walking.

You are walking and collecting requisite sellos per day.

You made a mistake whilst ambulating towards your goal.

Your earned Compostela awaits.

Timr: Buen camino

Thanks @nycwalking . I am however 100% certain I did not make a mistake.

 

[Juspassinthru]

To me, the fact that you’re questioning your worthiness tells me you’ve earned your certificate. But, only you can truly answer your question. I hope you’ll share your decision but I will also understand if you choose not to. Buen Camino.

 

[Davey Boyd]

Your conscience is clear. You have walked well over 100km. Don't bother reporting that you veered off the 'official' path. You know you have not 'cheated'. Why confuse some overworked volunteer who has enough on their plate.

Claim your compostela with pride (if you wish to claim one).

Davey

 

[nycwalking]

Thanks @nycwalking . ❤ I am however 100% certain I did not make a mistake.

You are right.

No mistake made.

You simply veered off path a bit.

I honestly don’t see your dilemma.

Had you veered off path via: bus, taxi, hitched ride, then maybe a question.

Otherwise, enjoy your pot of gold via the Compostela.

 

[Pelegrin]

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually

Monte Faro (1187 mts) is the highest point in Pontevedra province, but not of Galicia.
The highest mountain of Galicia is Pena Trevinca (2120 mts) in the border with Zamora province, not far from Camino Sanabres.

 

[Aurigny]

Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious. But you are required, to obtain a compostelle, to walk at least 100 km from your starting-point to SdC. You began in Ponferrada. No matter what route you took, it is not possible to get from Ponferrada to SdC without travelling more than 100 km—or 200 km, for that matter.

What route you may have taken from the 100-km waymarker is neither here nor there. If no waymarkers of any kind on the Invierno existed, you would have had to make your way from Ponferrada to SdC by whatever route you thought best, just as our pilgrim forebears did all those centuries ago.

 

[timr]

Monte Faro (1187 mts) is the highest point in Pontevedra province, but not of Galicia.
The highest mountain of Galicia is Pena Trevinca (2120 mts) in the border with Zamora province, not far from Camino Sanabres.

Thanks! Geography not my strong point!

 

[mmmmartin]

A worker in the Pilgrim Office will probably look at your starting point, then for the two stamps a day (many recognise those stamps), and engage you in conversation that will elicit answers from you. If there is nothing untoward, you'll probably have the compostela, which in my opinion, you certainly deserve. Fretting about this sort of thing proves you are, I reckon, an honest pilgrim doing their very best. Good luck to you.

 

[Davey Boyd]

Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious. But you are required, to obtain a compostelle, to walk at least 100 km from your starting-point to SdC. You began in Ponferrada. No matter what route you took, it is not possible to get from Ponferrada to SdC without travelling more than 100 km—or 200 km, for that matter.

What route you may have taken from the 100-km waymarker is neither here nor there. If no waymarkers of any kind on the Invierno existed, you would have had to make your way from Ponferrada to SdC by whatever route you thought best, just as our pilgrim forebears did all those centuries ago.

Actually to obtain a compostela you are required to walk the LAST 100km and it must be on a 'recognized route'.

So, if I walked every step from Moscow but took a 5km bus ride somewhere past Sarria I would not qualify.
Or if I made my own route into Santiago city which was not a 'recognised route'.

Davey

 

[Felipe]

I too thought initially that you had taken a bus or taxi -that could be a reason for some ethical concerns.
But a little detour does not seem to me as the matter of a moral dilemma.
I just can't imagine a volunteer in the pilgrim office asking a walker to deliver his/her phone to scrutinize the distance effectively walked. They surely will check the departing point, the stamps for the last 100 km, and that will be all.

 

[timr]

Actually to obtain a compostela you are required to walk the LAST 100km and it must be on a 'recognized route'.

So, if I walked every step from Moscow but took a 5km bus ride somewhere past Sarria I would not qualify.
Or if I made my own route into Santiago city which was not a 'recognised route'.

Davey

Exactly, and that is my point. You cannot make your own route, according to the Pilgrim Office.

 

[timr]

A worker in the Pilgrim Office will probably look at your starting point, then for the two stamps a day (many recognise those stamps), and engage you in conversation that will elicit answers from you. If there is nothing untoward, you'll probably have the compostela, which in my opinion, you certainly deserve. Fretting about this sort of thing proves you are, I reckon, an honest pilgrim doing their very best. Good luck to you.

Thanks, you are very kind. But there has been a good bit of discussion on the forum and I believe we have established that you MUST use an “approved” or “official” route. Only. You cannot make your own route. If you are a resident of Galicia, you cannot for instance just walk from your home, even if it is more than 100km.

 

[timr]

I too thought initially that you had taken a bus or taxi -that could be a reason for some ethical concerns.
But a little detour does not seem to me as the matter of a moral dilemma.
I just can't imagine a volunteer in the pilgrim office asking a walker to deliver his/her phone to scrutinize the distance effectively walked. They surely will check the departing point, the stamps for the last 100 km, and that will be all.

I too thought initially that you had taken a bus or taxi -that could be a reason for some ethical concerns.
But a little detour does not seem to me as the matter of a moral dilemma.
I just can't imagine a volunteer in the pilgrim office asking a walker to deliver his/her phone to scrutinize the distance effectively walked. They surely will check the departing point, the stamps for the last 100 km, and that will be all.

I would like to agree with you. But there has been a good bit of discussion on this issue. The pilgrim office does not sanction the use of unofficial routes. Nor does it tolerate cheating. And indeed we have been told that phone records have been scrutinised in the past to root out cheating. So my question remains.

 

[Davey Boyd]

Exactly, and that is my point. You cannot make your own route, according to the Pilgrim Office.

Yes Tim, but in my mind there is a difference from a slight detour to not using a camino at all. I still think conscience wise you should not worry.

By the way I disagree with the 'recognised route' rule. To me, if you are walking, it is valid. I'm not even sure why it was implemented at all. Maybe to save time in the office which can get overworked, but still.

Davey

 

[timr]

Yes Tim, but in my mind there is a difference from a slight detour to not using a camino at all. I still think conscience wise you should not worry.

By the way I disagree with the 'recognised route' rule. To me, if you are walking, it is valid. I'm not even sure why it was implemented at all. Maybe to save time in the office which can get overworked, but still.

Davey

Thanks @Davey Boyd , I disagree with it too. But neither of us makes the rules.

 

[timr]

Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious. But you are required, to obtain a compostelle, to walk at least 100 km from your starting-point to SdC. You began in Ponferrada. No matter what route you took, it is not possible to get from Ponferrada to SdC without travelling more than 100 km—or 200 km, for that matter.

What route you may have taken from the 100-km waymarker is neither here nor there. If no waymarkers of any kind on the Invierno existed, you would have had to make your way from Ponferrada to SdC by whatever route you thought best, just as our pilgrim forebears did all those centuries ago.

Thanks @Aurigny. In my heart I agree with you 100%, but my understanding is that the Pilgrim Office agrees with neither of us.

 

[Bradypus]

Thanks @Davey Boyd , I disagree with it too. But neither of us makes the rules.

The Compostela is in the cathedral's gift. They are of course free to set whatever rules they wish. But personally I find the "recognised route" rule a step too far. I will not be amongst those asking for one in future. I would be interested to hear what you finally decide to do and what response if any the pilgrim office gives you.

 

[Kathor1]

Can anyone help me?

Seriously?

Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

You passed through Chantada. This is apparently the minimum starting point for those who wish to do obtain a Compostela. See Distancias mínimas para dar la credencial y recibir la Compostela. A somewhat official statement. And it does NOT mean that the distance between Chantada and SdC is 100 km. [As a matter of principle, I have my doubts about pretty much everything I read online when it does not come directly from the primary source. Was the person who provided this information an official spokesperson for the Oficina?].

I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And neither does anyone here know what "official" means in the context of your dilemma. We go by what we read in online forums. There's an official, legally defined trazado for the Camino Invierno defined by the Xunta. The purpose of it has nothing to do with Compostelas. Whether the Cathedral has said that pilgrims have to stick to it to the last millimetre is anyone's guess. But in any case, this is about the course of the official trail and not about any official distances from one point to another point. Distances in guidebooks are definitely not official distances. And what your GPS measures is not an official distance either.

And in so doing, in the final 100 km, I have NOT walked 100 km.

We've already established that this is a false argument. You have to walk at least 100 km without interruption on the Camino Invierno to Santiago but not some predefined exact 100 km. You can walk through a town any way you want, for example, including taking shortcuts compared to the marked trail. And by extension, I am tempted to say, the same applies to the trail between two villages or towns on the Camino Invierno. You have fulfilled all the requirements, in letter and certainly in spirit.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path?

This would be the real dilemma for me. I would not be able to resist the temptation to present this "ethical dilemma" to them and with a straight face. And obviously insist on going through the hierarchy at the Oficina, as high as possible, if the answer given is not satisfactory. I would regard it as a service to the online pilgrim community.

 

[henrythedog]

And indeed we have been told that phone records have been scrutinised in the past to root out cheating.

Honestly? That must have been some pretty blatant cheating they suspected ...

It really doesn’t matter what ‘we’ think justifies a compostella, if it has its traditional value of certifying piety and improving the chances of going up rather than down in the fullness of time, then obtaining one under false pretences is likely to be counter productive.

I know what I did to justify my two compostellas. If I were a collector I could have three more by now and I set off again in a week’s time.

 

[timr]

Honestly? That must have been some pretty blatant cheating they suspected ...

Yes, honestly. And very sadly.

 

[nycwalking]

Now; I see your concern.

To soothe your spirit, just explain this dilemma to Pilgrim’s office.

Somehow, I pray you are making much ado about nothing.

Since you are a priest I’ll also say: be ye anxious for nothing.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

"The letter of the Law kills, but the Spirit of the Law gives life."
I don't think the Pilgrim Office volunteers are Pharisees enough to give you a hard time on this. The 100-km. "Law" is not a legitimate measure of a pilgrim. (If they want to get technical, the Invierno isn't a historical Camino to Santiago, either, but somehown they declared it "official.")
Don't think so much. Just walk. That is what pilgrims do.

 

[timr]

Seriously?
This would be the real dilemma for me. I would not be able to resist the temptation to present this "ethical dilemma" to them and with a straight face. And obviously insist on going through the hierarchy at the Oficina, as high as possible, if the answer given is not satisfactory. I would regard it as a service to the online pilgrim community.

I am hugely tempted so to do @Kathar1na and as a priest I would be happy to face +Julián, the bishop. Unfortunately I am a little short of time on this occasion and have not yet decided how best to proceed.

 

[timr]

"The letter of the Law kills, but the Spirit of the Law gives life."
Don't think so much. Just walk. That is what pilgrims do.

I find the walking leads to thinking......
When you are a Bear of Very Little brain, and you Think Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

 

[Sparrow in Texas]

You have to walk at least 100 km without interruption on the Camino Invierno to Santiago but not some predefined exact 100 km.
/QUOTE]
I have a question about the without interruption part. Do you mean that a pilgrim cannot interupt or stop partway through the final 100K one year and return the following year even it the sellos indicate that the pilgrim stopped and resumed at the same location? We sure can make this complicated for ourselves!

 

[timr]

@Sparrow in Texas I think it is clear that IS permitted. Temporal interruption is OK.

 

[t2andreo]

Strictly speaking, it is the accumulation of sellos that establish your direction, line of march and overall distance covered. The actual, technical distance covered between any two places is relative.

From the description of your perambulations you provided I conclude that you are fine. Continue to get two sellos daily, to the best of your ability, and proceed to Santiago.

Do not obsess on this issue beyond obtaining the daily sellos and following the trail markers. You will be fine.

Hope this helps.

 

[ExiledSW]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion...

I didn't read all the responses so this may have been touched upon. The compostela is simply a certificate of completion of your journey. They do sell another certificate for 3 Euros for a distance certification. I wouldn't worry or have too much of a dilemma if you're worried about your Camino "counting" for a compostela. You're doing awesome! Keep it rolling and Buen Camino!

 

[Deleted member 43985]

Hi Timr- I can find nothing about ‘Official Routes’ on their website, only a reference that a Pilgrimage is from the place you start to the resting place of Santiago. With a total distance of 263kms walked with no break I can’t see how you could not qualify. Plus a long-time volunteer, t2andreo thinks your good so what more can you ask?!

 

[Aurigny]

I'm more than open to correction by people who know more about this than I do. But if one has to follow a prescribed trail without deviation, hesitation or repetition (to paraphrase an old radio show to which I used to listen when I was living briefly in Britain) over a distance of many hundreds of kilometres, then I have to give back at least one of my compostelles.

Two years ago I completed the CPI, a recognised route of some 400 km from Viseu to SdC. For the first hour or so I was following yellow arrows, and after that I was on my own. I might have seen a dozen of the things for the next 200 km between there and the Spanish border, despite rigorous searching. I began and ended each day at a town mentioned on the two websites that then existed describing the CPI (only one does now), but only the good Lord knows if I was ever following the prescribed trail between any two of them. To this day I'm far from certain that such a prescribed trail actually exists, or ever did. My first two days I must have covered a cumulative total of about 30 km spent walking determinedly in the wrong direction, and things got only a little better after that.

The Invierno, granted, is much better waymarked. But even there I got myself lost three months ago past Montefurado railway station and only regained the main trail by cutting through a road tunnel and mending my course close to Bendilló, around 4 km later. If I'd been hunting around Montefurado in the failing light looking for arrows, I might be there yet.

I do these pilgrimages for religious reasons exclusively, and my annoyingly persnickety personality type impels me to do everything I can to dot every possible 'I' and cross every imaginable 'T' along the way. But my view is that neither the Almighty nor the Pilgrims' Office is interested in throwing down obstacles in the way of people who are coping as best they can with the unexpected situations with which the Camino constantly presents them.

 

[KinkyOne]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Come on, Tim... Are you serious?
I had to read all the posts to be sure. I almost hit the HAHAHAHA icon knowing you in person.

Ethical problem? I don't see any in your case. You are/will be walking much more than required 100km to the tomb so where's the ethical or administrative glitch? I just can't see it.

Enjoy your CdI and collect the Compostela with a smile


PS (There was a marathon in Ljubljana this weekend )

 

[peregrina2000]

I do not think the Cathedral dictates the routing of the official route, so I agree with @t2andreo that all indicia (as he says, “direction, line of march, and overall distance”) support the legitimacy of your compostela. To take this to the ridiculous point, what about the many times when the arrows take me into a town and I detour off to get to my pensión, and then I pick up the route again at the exit of town? There are so many “deviations” (how about going through Porriño, via the river or via the industrial park, for instance), that I think you should focus on the bigger picture and be confident that you are well within the parameters of what the Cathedral cares about when it awards a compostela.

 

[Former member 49149]

@timr , like @KinkyOne I was taken aback... If you have a scruple then don’t go for a Compostela. It would accuse you till you meet the Final Arbiter. On the other hand, lighten up! I would skip your box if I needed a confessor!

 

[Kanga]

“I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost.” Winnie-the-Pooh AA Milne.

I think the same thing can be applied to your dilemma. As @peregrina2000 and @t2andreo say, you followed the general direction of "the Invierno" and there is nothing about your specific route that makes it any less valid than another. The guide you have been using is just that, a guide. I doubt the Pilgrim's Office specifies the exact location at every point.

 

[simply B]

@timr –

You have had plenty of good responses above that speak to your situation and yet, and yet…I sense that your conscience desires just a wee bit more certainty.

Therefore, I propose to offer you not just sympathy but arithmetic support. (Disclaimer: There are numbers ahead [kinda] , you would be advised to turn back if you were traumatized by bad teachers.)

So, here it is….”MATH”!

(Well, I could also use physics but have no wish to appear more freakish in the forum than I am already likely perceived!)

Yes, your GPS device is giving you about 5 km less than “official” – so? No, I am not being facetious.

Your GPS only registers the “as the crow flies” direct distance. It does NOT measure actual distance walked which is a completely different animal!

When walking on unimproved paths, a trained civil surveyor is likely, more than not, to invoke “Naismith’s rule” which provides for a multiple of anywhere from 5 to 10 meters walked on an elevation for a given meter walked on the flat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naismith's_rule

So, how much elevation change did you walk on that stage? Answer: At least a 1,000 meters combined of up and down! See link below:

https://www.pilgrim.es/en/winter-way/stage-7-chantada-rodeiro/

So….there is your “missing” 5 km, at least, right there!

Finally…while I am a “not a person of consequence” in the Camino world, I have to think that John Brierley is. I just checked my keepsake guide to the CF from many years back. Yep, he uses the 50% correction for elevations. (If I am not mistaken, he used to be a surveyor!)

Go in good conscience and enjoy the rest of your walk. At the Oficina, do not even bring it up...there is no need. (I would not deign to offer a priest a lecture on scrupulosity. But, if I absolutely have to, the first few rounds are on you. 'Henry Downes No. 9' is a favorite, btw, just so you know.)

Buen Camino!

B

 

[VNwalking]

You have walked from farther away.
That's 5K less over 260 km. And 100 kms is actually at Diamondi, so thee is slack, even if the rule is taken literally. Besides, that 'rule' is a modern convention, and no arbiter of heart, or divine law.
So I wouldn't overthink it.

 

[Deleted member 43985]

Your GPS only registers the “as the crow flies” direct distance. It does NOT measure actual distance walked which is a completely different animal!

Hi @simply B - I think you may have mixed these two ideas up. A GPS can only measure the distance of the actual trail that you walk as it marks your position at designated intervals from a satellite signal, the sum of these intervals makes up your total distance walked.

 

[RJM]

You are giving the matter way too much thought in my opinion.
Quite obvious you earned the compostela based on the criteria normally used to say you did.
Fill up your passport full of stamps, get your compostela.

 

[simply B]

@jozero -

With all due respect, I am unlikely mistaken in this regard. GPS marks lateral displacement on an ideal planar surface. The altitudinal displacement is NOT FIGURED IN. Please do check the link on Naismith's Rule.

Pax,

B

 

[Deleted member 43985]

@jozero -

With all due respect, I am unlikely mistaken in this regard. GPS marks lateral displacement on an ideal planar surface. The altitudinal displacement is NOT FIGURED IN. Please do check the link on Naismith's Rule.

Pax,

B

Hi again,
Regardless of all the fancy words, you are still mistaken. A handheld gps takes a reading every few minutes using trilateration from a number of satellites, marking a position. The time between these readings and the difference between the positions calculates the distance between the points. Over the course of a day’s hike if you walked 6 hours you could typically have 360 positions recorded if you set your device to record every minute. This is why your track shows exactly where you walked and not a simple straight line from your starting point to your finish point (the definition of ‘as the crow flies’). If your idea worked then if you walked in a circle and finished exactly where you started then your total distance travelled would be 0km.

Anyway, my apologies to Tim for hijacking his thread. I’ll bow out of this discussion to avoid that any longer. Have a great night, Simply B.

 

[simply B]

Agreed, @jozero -

We're not hijacking the thread!

@timr - you're still good.

@jozero - look for a PM.

G'night all!

B

 

[C clearly]

I can't believe that you are serious. You are trivializing the easily-understood principles for the awarding of a compostella.

I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses.

Yes, and its uses should not include the checking of the Pilgrim's office stage measurements and the second-guessing of your pilgrimage validity.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

Well, if they're going to get arsey about having to walk exactly on the official route, I'd like to know exactly how wide this official route is. I mean, do I need to do a 100km tightrope walk - or do I get a couple of meters grace, either side of the official route? And if I step off the path to do a wee wee, must I retrace my steps back to the point where I left the yellow brick road or can I make a beeline to some point further along the way? And how many of these comfort breaks does the pilgrim office allow me per day? I ask because this route is going to get pretty mucky if they don't show some flexibility.

tldr: Nobody walks exactly on the Camino for 100km.

 

[Deleted member 76633]

There is a GPX file on http://www.caminodeinvierno.com/content/la-ruta which can be downloaded and compared to the actual route taken. You overlay one gpx track over another.

Happy to do the comparison if it helps identify the issue / dilema

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Question , what is your point of all this.?
It's all about the walk .

 

[Kathor1]

Question, what is your point of all this? It's all about the walk.

My guess is - but it’s just a guess of course - that it’s about the policy of the Oficina del Peregrino and/or the Cathedral (assuming that they pursue identical policies) concerning the conditions and the methods for awarding Compostelas and for recognising official Camino routes, as well as about their lack of transparency and lack of direct communication with the pilgrims community at large, and the fact that these policies and methods are apparently getting more and more complicated if not to say hard to comprehend.

For example, you find nothing about having to follow official or recognised Camino routes on their website, yet this obligation was pointed out to at least one pilgrim when he arrived at the Oficina who then reported about it on the forum. He also posted a copy of the relevant page from a recent edition of their credencial where it is explicitly stated that one has to follow recognised routes. Perhaps you have such a new credencial and can check for yourself?

Or perhaps it’s just about the thoughts that some of us have or that happen to pass through our curious minds while we walk. ☺

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

Well, I think this subject has now become silly.
If the camino path signs are on the left of the road and I walk on the right, does that mean I can't claim a compostella?!?
Nowhere does anything say you have to walk the exact path - indeed, local communities often MOVE the path from time to time.
Just put this nonsense behind you, and claim your well deserved compostella!
Ultreia!

 

[JabbaPapa]

Thanks, you are very kind. But there has been a good bit of discussion on the forum and I believe we have established that you MUST use an “approved” or “official” route. Only. You cannot make your own route. If you are a resident of Galicia, you cannot for instance just walk from your home, even if it is more than 100km.

naaaah

The Compostela: accreditation of the pilgrimage to Santiago

The “Compostela“, the accreditation of the pilgrimage to the Tomb of St. James.

oficinadelperegrino.com

To get the “Compostela” you must:

• Make the pilgrimage for religious or spiritual reasons, or at least an attitude of search.
• Do the last 100 km on foot or horseback, or the last 200 km by bicycle. It is understood that the pilgrimage starts at one point and from there you come to visit the Tomb of St. James.
• You must collect the stamps on the “Credencial del Peregrino” from the places you pass through to certify that you have been there. Stamps from churches, hostels, monasteries, cathedrals and all places related to the Way are preferred, but if not they can also be stamped in other institutions: town halls, cafés, etc. You have to stamp the Credencial twice a day at least on the last 100 km (for pilgrims on foot or on horseback) or on the last 200 km (for cyclists pilgrims).

You can do the Way in stages, provided they are in chronological and geographical order. However, if you only do the minimum required distance (last 100 or 200 km), you must always get your Credencial stamped at the start and end of each stage, including the corresponding date, to show that the pilgrim has resumed the Way in the same place where they last stopped (i.e. you should always get the stamp at the starting point even though you have already stamped the card in the same place at the end of the previous stage).

 

[Bradypus]

Well, I think this subject has now become silly

The subject became silly a long time ago - at the point when the cathedral instituted a rule requiring one to follow a recognised route in order to receive a Compostela. Without adequately publishing the fact of that new rule or giving any reason for such a change or any explanation of what it actually means in practice. Tim's reductio ad absurdum simply points out the nonsensical situation we now find ourselves in.

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

I never felt the need or wish to apply for a compostela, for me it is sufficient to know for myself what I have achieved.My goal is in the walking itself and in its effects on me. When I read all this stuff about all kinds of bureaucratic pettiness I am glad I never had to worry if I would be rewarded with a diploma

 

[NualaOC]

Come on, Tim... Are you serious?
I had to read all the posts to be sure. I almost hit the HAHAHAHA icon knowing you in person.

Ethical problem? I don't see any in your case. You are/will be walking much more than required 100km to the tomb so where's the ethical or administrative glitch? I just can't see it.

Enjoy your CdI and collect the Compostela with a smile
PS (There was a marathon in Ljubljana this weekend )

Good luck with your deliberations, Tim. @KinkyOne's first reaction was similar to mine, but then I remembered stressing about the same point when I crossed from the Primitivo to the Norte on the Camino Verde (which strictly speaking doesn't include a final 100kms on a recognised route). From what I can recall, you gave me very sensible guidance on that point

My tuppence worth is that there's a BIG difference between ethics and rules. Ethics and principles merit very serious consideration - the minutiae of rules: not so much. Don't sweat the small stuff, peregrino!

 

[Marbe2]

I have often gone off the “official” path when the weather or safety warranted it!
Took the roads, which often added extra kilometers. For me, it is about the journey and as a priest I am sure you know that.
Have you traveled Well and right!? If so do not be concerned about the outcome. You will have reached another stop on your way to your final destination - with or without someone else’s official acclamation!

 

[MichaelB10398]

Can anyone help me?


But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Hello timr,
I don't think there is a conflict here. You know who issues the Compostela and you know the rules that are set up for obtaining it.
As I read your post my mind wandered to similar topics about observing rules and obtaining a reward or, at least, participating in an event.
When I was quite young - 8 or 9 years old - I lied when entering a Judo competition, which resulted in me being placed in a lower weight category. I won a silver medal in the competition. After winning I felt terrible and the award meant nothing to me. After returning home I put the medal in a box and then under my bed and never discussed it again, though I had to receive acknowledgements from others for having won a medal. Eventually I tossed the medal in the garbage because I knew I did not deserve it. I had lied and I had not followed the rules.
Next, I thought of the Eucharist. The Catholic Church has a closed communion and there are rules that should be observed before one is enabled to receive the Eucharist. This topic has also been discussed on this Board to a degree. The bottom line, if you are not Catholic it is best not to violate the Catholic Church's rules regarding Communion.
To obtain a Compostela you need to observe the rules. Yes, you have walked, but you chose to walk a path that does not meet the standards they have set up. You had a great walk, but you don't meet the standard by your own admission.
Continue to walk and enjoy it. I don't think I would go to the Office to get a Compostela this time. If I did, I would tell them what you did and let them make the decision for you. However, that is still a little bit of passing on the buck and making another make a decision for you that you already know the answer.
The Compostela will be there for other paths; this is not one of them.
I always enjoy your posts and contributions to this Board. God bless you

 

[TaijiPilgrim]

timr, I am so pleased that there are still people of conscience and ethics in today's world. My admiration and respect to you, a true pilgrim! Buen camino.

 

[Nick B]

Say four hail Marys and forget about it, more important issues at hand(or foot)……..

 

[t2andreo]

I believe that being overly scrupulous can spoil any Camino. It is about the JOURNEY, NOT the destination. The mere act of making the pilgrimage is what is important.

In the final analysis, even a Compostela ought not be the goal, at least in my personal opinion. If you need any documentation of your worthy walking, just ask for the 'solo sello.' Have your credencial annotated by these two stamps to reflect that you made it to your journey's end.

You know in your heart what you did to honor the intent. Most pilgrims who do this with a right spirit and mind prefer the sello in their credencial over the Compostela anyway.

Then, there is the truism that NO ONE arrives at the Pearly Gates with a paper Compostela in their hands. It is written in the omniscient mind of the Almighty, what deed, both good and less than good, that each of use has done with the time provided us.

It does not, IMHO, matter what anyone else thinks. We each walk our own Camino.

Hope this helps. Enjoy the rest of your Camino.

 

[Colum Clarke]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[NorthernLight]

I have this vision in my head of the three routes out of Villafranca del Bierzo. Each is a valid route and each gets you to O'Cebreiro. The harder two routes have additional kms but the credentials for each if the pilgrims, if they only stamp where they sleep, will be remarkably similar. There are no bonus points for making the harder walk.

There are two routes out of Portomarin, with the older route now used mainly by cyclists having a bit more mileage. Is only one official? Doesn't matter, there are no stamps along there.

It seems to me 'official route' can only ever be an approximation to simplify the daily chore of the Pilgrim Office.

If you have walked 100 km into Santiago, your conscience can be clear, and Sant Iago will be happy to greet you.

 

[Colum Clarke]

Sorry for sounding flippant but in a world so full of strive I think you should “get over yourself” and come back to the real world.

 

[Deleted member 43985]

Sorry for sounding flippant but in a world so full of strive I think you should “get over yourself” and come back to the real world.

This forum exists to discuss Camino subjects. Sounding flippant adds no value to such a discussion and makes me wonder why you would write it if you already knew it would sound flippant. Perhaps the Tao of Thumper would be an appropriate guideline to follow...

 

[Former member 49149]

Come back @timr ! Tell us where you are now in your peregrinations!

 

[JabbaPapa]

at the point when the cathedral instituted a rule requiring one to follow a recognised route in order to receive a Compostela

But it's just nonsense, and BTW it is also AFAIK a direct contradiction of the Canon Law.

There might be some practical difficulty for the Pilgrim Office as regards those walking only 100K to let them determine if those 100K have actually been walked -- except that at the same time, a fairly recent ruling is that those who live closer than 100K to the Cathedral may, in the right conditions, obtain the Compostela if they walk from home, or preferably from their home parish church.

As far as I can see, this was a mistake that was motivated by some overzealous person in the Arch-Confraternity, thinking of such worldly matters as the promotion of Galician tourism rather than the spiritual matter of a pilgrimage.

---

Besides, anyone who can clearly demonstrate to have walked further than 100K and even much further than that is unlikely to be someone to be affected by this sort of paper-pushing administrative and Canonical incompetence.

 

[Bradypus]

But it's just nonsense, and BTW it is also AFAIK a direct contradiction of the Canon Law.

I completely agree that it is nonsense. Unfortunately it is also the pilgrim office's policy as explicitly stated on the latest version of their credencial. I would be very interested to know what particular piece of canon law you believe applies to the cathedral's conditions for issuing a Compostela and in what respect you believe this particular demand is incompatible with it.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

My guess is - but it’s just a guess of course - that it’s about the policy of the Oficina del Peregrino and/or the Cathedral (assuming that they pursue identical policies) concerning the conditions and the methods for awarding Compostelas and for recognising official Camino routes, as well as about their lack of transparency and lack of direct communication with the pilgrims community at large, and the fact that these policies and methods are apparently getting more and more complicated if not to say hard to comprehend.

For example, you find nothing about having to follow official or recognised Camino routes on their website, yet this obligation was pointed out to at least one pilgrim when he arrived at the Oficina who then reported about it on the forum. He also posted a copy of the relevant page from a recent edition of their credencial where it is explicitly stated that one has to follow recognised routes. Perhaps you have such a new credencial and can check for yourself?

Or perhaps it’s just about the thoughts that some of us have or that happen to pass through our curious minds while we walk. ☺

Those who go to the Apostle's Tomb for religious and / or spiritual reasons, and following the paths of the Camino de Santiago on foot, by bicycle or on horseback.
It's all about the last 100 or 200km. and the two stamps a day when you want a Compostela.
Wish you well.

 

[Kathor1]

It's all about the last 100 or 200km. and the two stamps a day when you want a Compostela.

Oh, this would be so boring. I would not participate in such a thread .

It has more to do with a fairly new entry in the Spanish credencial. @Bradypus has just posted these two lines:

• Los últimos 100 Kilómetros deberán realizarse por cualquiera de las rutas reconocidas como oficiales por la S.A.M.I Catedral de Santiago.

Similar to what @NorthernLight said, I always understood it all to mean that you pick a starting point and you walk roughly in the direction of Santiago where the Apostle's tomb is said to be; you may receive a Compostela if you happened to have started at a place so far away that you will cover the last 100 km just before Santiago.

So what possessed someone to insert these lines in the credencial now and why? It seems ridiculous to me. It seems to me that they are losing sight of what a Jacobean pilgrimage in the Christian sense actually is.

​

 

[JabbaPapa]

I completely agree that it is nonsense. Unfortunately it is also the pilgrim office's policy as explicitly stated on the latest version of their credencial. I would be very interested to know what particular piece of canon law you believe applies to the cathedral's conditions for issuing a Compostela and in what respect you believe this particular demand is incompatible with it.
View attachment 66290

The Compostela is among other things a certification that one has fulfilled a requirement for the partial or plenary indulgence that is associated with the pilgrimage.

In the vast majority of cases, this would be a perfect irrelevance, as the Compostela is almost never necessary to that purpose -- but there remain some rare cases of a penitential and/or vicarious pilgrimage where a refusal to provide that document from failing to follow such clearly artificial rules would be a direct violation of the purposes of that Law.

A Bishop is sovereign in his Diocese -- but this does not provide him with any right to establish such artificial and unnecessary limitations for the delivering of an ecclesial document to the Faithful.

Particularly not when it's something so obviously defective as "you must pass through pueblos A, B, C, D, E, F, and G ; but in no circumstance through pueblos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7".

 

[Dromengro]

The distance between any two points changes depending on the size of the measuring device. As this will be your feet then I can assure you you will travel much further than the required 100km. Ditch the GPS, as without it you wouldn't have noticed the small shortcut, easily made up by any future detours and save yourself the dilemma.

 

[Tincatinker]

"Los últimos 100 Kilómetros deberán realizarse por cualquiera de las rutas reconocidas como oficiales por la S.A.M.I Catedral de Santiago."

There was a time when I would have cheerfully assumed that the Diocese had been "leant-on" by the Galician hospitality mafia or even Turismo.gal and that an "understanding" had been reached. I'm now wondering whether in fact it is the Diocese doing the "leaning". "Nice little Albergue you've got there senora. Shame if it wasn't on the "route". Know what I mean. The Cathedral could do with re-pointing. All donations gratefully - nudge-nudge, wink-wink".

Still, we can all be comforted by the thought that with the Bishop in charge of the little yellow arrows no pilgrim need fear going "astray" again and @timr could perhaps solve his current dilemma with a donation to the "re-pointing" fund

And if the Compostella has become an award for obedience rather than commitment then so be it. "Look to your heart Pilgrim".

 

[David Tallan]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm with t2andreo here. Not just because he appears to be the closest we have on this forum to an expert in pilgrim office policy, but also because what he says makes sense.

Nowhere is it required that one never stray from the GPS track of a "recognized camino". People so stray all the time - to go to a bar, restaurant, or albergue, to attend to nature's call, because a path parallel to the highway looks better or safer, for a multitude of reasons. For this reason, as t2andreo explains, what they are looking for in terms of following a "recognized camino" is that your progression of sellos, the evidence of your travel, reflects villages and locations on a camino that they recognize. Yours will. So you have met their definition of "recognized camino" (artificial as it is).

You have also walked exclusively in the last 100 km (no cars, buses or taxis) and walked over 100 km, meeting the other requirements set by the people giving out Compostelas.

Ethically you are on solid ground.

 

[henrythedog]

To most modern Brits Ethics is a county next to Thuthex.

Just take a number, collect your compostella - if you can be bothered waiting - and sort it out in confession if you’re so inclined.

You will be in a very small minority in trying to argue yourself out of a document of dubious value.

Your performance of a pilgrimage with positive intent, with or without a certificate, may count in your favour at some time in the (hopefully distant) future. I’m personally counting on it!

Best wishes.

 

[Tincatinker]

"To most modern Brits Ethics is a county next to Thuthex."

Henry, I appreciate where you are coming from but your geography is sh

 

[tpmchugh]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

My attitude to your dilemma is that it is not a dilemma. Man ticks boxes, God does not. You have earned it as much as any other pilgrim on the camino and God knows what is in your heart. Many think the compostella is just a certificate but it is actually a church document issued by the Catholic church so if your intentions are good of heart, take your compostella and hang it on your wall for all to see

 

[Zordmot]

"The letter of the Law kills, but the Spirit of the Law gives life."
I don't think the Pilgrim Office volunteers are Pharisees enough to give you a hard time on this. The 100-km. "Law" is not a legitimate measure of a pilgrim. (If they want to get technical, the Invierno isn't a historical Camino to Santiago, either, but somehown they declared it "official.")
Don't think so much. Just walk. That is what pilgrims do.

I agree with Rebekah. I'm not sure where all this legalistic stuff came into what was essentially a spiritual walk by pilgrims that was something they did in response to an inner call. I'm guessing that the Compostela was granted as a response to some people who hadn't really done the journey but claimed to in order to reap the rewards of people's admiration and respect. Then during the medieval period the church was rewarding pilgrims, big donors, and crusaders with indulgences and such so that a piece of paper then had the value of forgiving sins, getting relatives out of purgatory and other things that negated the church's faith in Christ. So the paper became the primary thing, and the journey was secondary. One of my seminary professors would often quote a famous old greek phrase that went "the thing itself justifieth itself" . Walking the Camino, experiencing the Camino, being totally present with each step of the Camino is THE THING, not a piece of paper. Unless of course your bishop requires it.....

 

[timr]

I can't believe that you are serious. You are trivializing the easily-understood principles for the awarding of a compostella.

Yes, and its uses should not include the checking of the Pilgrim's office stage measurements and the second-guessing of your pilgrimage validity.

My point is that the pilgrim office do check, in their efforts to exclude those who “cheat” from receiving a Compostela. There has been a lot of discussion on that here.

 

[timr]

Come back @timr ! Tell us where you are now in your peregrinations!

Hi @kirkie I’m in Robeira right now just about to leave for final day’s walk to Santiago. All is very well,

 

[donalomahony]

Enjoy - thanks for all your generosity through the various threads of conversation you started or contributed to.

 

[timr]

I agree with Rebekah. I'm not sure where all this legalistic stuff came into what was essentially a spiritual walk by pilgrims that was something they did in response to an inner call. I'm guessing that the Compostela was granted as a response to some people who hadn't really done the journey but claimed to in order to reap the rewards of people's admiration and respect. Then during the medieval period the church was rewarding pilgrims, big donors, and crusaders with indulgences and such so that a piece of paper then had the value of forgiving sins, getting relatives out of purgatory and other things that negated the church's faith in Christ. So the paper became the primary thing, and the journey was secondary. One of my seminary professors would often quote a famous old greek phrase that went "the thing itself justifieth itself" . Walking the Camino, experiencing the Camino, being totally present with each step of the Camino is THE THING, not a piece of paper. Unless of course your bishop requires it.....

Thanks @Zordmot and I’m happy to say my bishop has no requirements! I have no problem whatever with pursuing my own spiritual walk. I know why I walk and it is to walk, even more than to arrive, but a ‘direction’ does help. I’m also heading for Jerusalem in stages.
what has concerned me over recent times IS the legalism which seems to emanate from the Pilgrim Office, which DOES issue rather contorted requirements. I am even more concerned when I read on this forum of its efforts to check that people are not “cheating” to obtain a Compostela. And weeding them out. THIS is what I find is far from the spirit of a personal Christian pilgrimage. They seem to be making it about a bit of paper. I would just celebrate people’s wish to visit Santiago, however they can.

 

[timr]

My attitude to your dilemma is that it is not a dilemma. Man ticks boxes, God does not. You have earned it as much as any other pilgrim on the camino and God knows what is in your heart. Many think the compostella is just a certificate but it is actually a church document issued by the Catholic church so if your intentions are good of heart, take your compostella and hang it on your wall for all to see

Thanks @tpmchugh I am laughing as I read your message, just about to set out on final day. And it is not raining . Yet!
I think I have half a dozen Compostelas in a draw at home. But none hanging on the wall.......

 

[timr]

To most modern Brits Ethics is a county next to Thuthex.

Just take a number, collect your compostella - if you can be bothered waiting - and sort it out in confession if you’re so inclined.

You will be in a very small minority in trying to argue yourself out of a document of dubious value.

Your performance of a pilgrimage with positive intent, with or without a certificate, may count in your favour at some time in the (hopefully distant) future. I’m personally counting on it!

Best wishes.

Thanks. I am not putting much faith in the future (distant I hope) usefulness of a Compostela, But I would indeed put some hope on the usefulness of pilgrimage in that respect, not per se, but for where it might lead me!

 

[SioCamino]

My point is that the pilgrim office do check, in their efforts to exclude those who “cheat” from receiving a Compostela. There has been a lot of discussion on that here.

Yeah but ... from my experience in the office, we only have the stamps to go by. So if you have all the requisite stamps - 2 per days from the 100km in at reasonable “believable” intervals, for longer caminos again a reasonable credible sequence of stamps for the route then you shouldn’t have problems. Questions get asked when the stamps don’t make sense at first glance (that doesn’t necessarily mean cheating) or when people do really long stages especially in the last 100km. Or questions just to make conversation and connect to the pilgrim....

Absolutely there must exist people who cheat... I know I have had my suspicions with some people presenting at the desk... but that’s all they are... if they have the stamps there’s not much I can do about my instincts about the person (and I could well be wrong too!!)

I have seen instances where a pilgrims phone was used to help establish their route - usually done where they were unable to get a stamp for a day or had lost a credential at the earlier stage of the camino. Not to “root out cheating” per se.

Don’t sweat the small stuff......

 

[Introibo]

If you're heading to Jerusalem you're miles off track
Tighten the cilice a notch and walk with a clear conscience

 

[Deleted member 76633]

@timr

Congratulations on completing your walk - even if it *might* be a little shorter than normal.

 

[timr]

Yeah but ... from my experience in the office, we only have the stamps to go by. So if you have all the requisite stamps - 2 per days from the 100km in at reasonable “believable” intervals, for longer caminos again a reasonable credible sequence of stamps for the route then you shouldn’t have problems. Questions get asked when the stamps don’t make sense at first glance (that doesn’t necessarily mean cheating) or when people do really long stages especially in the last 100km. Or questions just to make conversation and connect to the pilgrim....

Absolutely there must exist people who cheat... I know I have had my suspicions with some people presenting at the desk... but that’s all they are... if they have the stamps there’s not much I can do about my instincts about the person (and I could well be wrong too!!)

I have seen instances where a pilgrims phone was used to help establish their route - usually done where they were unable to get a stamp for a day or had lost a credential at the earlier stage of the camino. Not to “root out cheating” per se.

Don’t sweat the small stuff......

I'm touched by your kindness and of course have nothing but admiration and gratitude for the work of all the PO staff, most especially the volunteers.

Nonetheless I remain sad if even one person per year is caught cheating and we have been informed on this forum that catching of cheats is a (very small) part of the work of the PO. And while phone records have been used to help people who have lost their credencial as you say, and this is kind and beyond the call of duty, they have also been used to catch cheating. For me that is a step too far. And I do not claim to have the only right answer on this, by any means. But try as I might, I cannot accept the other answer for myself.

 

[VNwalking]

So, Tim, heartfelt congratulations and welcome (back) to Santiago. 9 days on the Invierno is a walk! What did you decide to do?

I so appreciated @NualaOC 's comment, differeniating rules and ethics. And this latest addition to 'The Rules' is absurd, regardless of whys and what-fors behind it. Local groups often change routes, as do local businesses, hoping drum up customers. So what the 'official' route is becomes arbitrary. And we have to follow that, otherwise we're cheating - regardless of how far we've walked? Sorry, just...no. Again adding my voice to the common sense crowd and quoting them to amplify their message:

My tuppence worth is that there's a BIG difference between ethics and rules. Ethics and principles merit very serious consideration - the minutiae of rules: not so much. Don't sweat the small stuff, peregrino!

So what possessed someone to insert these lines in the credencial now and why? It seems ridiculous to me. It seems to me that they are losing sight of what a Jacobean pilgrimage in the Christian sense actually is.

Tim's reductio ad absurdum simply points out the nonsensical situation we now find ourselves in.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Nonetheless I remain sad if even one person per year is caught cheating

A bit absolutist!

Who cares? It certainly does not diminish what I have done. I am a rules kind of guy, but not to the point that I worry about the behavior of others. I am having a hard time contemplating ruining my camino weeks or months later by being concerned about cheaters.

 

[Deleted member 76633]

I'd turn to the Jesuit credo about asking forgiveness. Let the Pilgrim Office decide and accept the decision based on the intent rather than the act.

 

[t2andreo]

To most modern Brits Ethics is a county next to Thuthex.

Just take a number, collect your compostella - if you can be bothered waiting - and sort it out in confession if you’re so inclined.

You will be in a very small minority in trying to argue yourself out of a document of dubious value.

Your performance of a pilgrimage with positive intent, with or without a certificate, may count in your favour at some time in the (hopefully distant) future. I’m personally counting on it!

Best wishes.

Yes, but IIRC, @timr is a priest. He is the person who HEARS confessions. In that context, one presupposes he ought (or at least tries very much) to remain above the fray. Setting a good example and all that... But I digress...

Yes, I know that even the Pope attends near daily confession, though for WHAT I can only imagine. In any event. I applaud timr's sharing his felt ethical dilemma with us here. His OP likely resonated with MANY other pilgrims who either willfully, or inadvertently engaged in any variety of detours on their Caminos.

It happens. One wrong turn and all of a sudden you are higgly-piggly all over the place. Several kilometers can easily be added or deleted in such a manner.

The staff at the P/O know this as well. THAT is why they focus on your direction of travel (towards Santiago), line-of-march, and overall distance covered. On every given route, they KNOW the typical sellos to expect within the final 100 km or so. It is divergence from this expected pattern that causes added questions.

Hope this helps.

 

[henrythedog]

Yes, but IIRC, @timr is a priest. He is the person who HEARS confessions. In that context, one presupposes he ought (or at least tries very much) to remain above the fray. Setting a good example and all that... But I digress...

Yes, I know that even the Pope attends near daily confession, though for WHAT I can only imagine. In any event. I applaud timr's sharing his felt ethical dilemma with us here. His OP likely resonated with MANY other pilgrims who either willfully, or inadvertently engaged in any variety of detours on their Caminos.

It happens. One wrong turn and all of a sudden you are higgly-piggly all over the place. Several kilometers can easily be added or deleted in such a manner.

The staff at the P/O know this as well. THAT is why they focus on your direction of travel (towards Santiago), line-of-march, and overall distance covered. On every given route, they KNOW the typical sellos to expect within the final 100 km or so. It is divergence from this expected pattern that causes added questions.

Hope this helps.

That does help a great deal. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[timr]

A bit absolutist!

Who cares? It certainly does not diminish what I have done. I am a rules kind of guy, but not to the point that I worry about the behavior of others. I am having a hard time contemplating ruining my camino weeks or months later by being concerned about cheaters.

Thanks

Somebody (!) once said: “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off."

I assure you none of my Caminos has ever been ruined by rumination.

I guess though I'm an anti-rules kind of guy!

 

[David Tallan]

I guess though I'm an anti-rules kind of guy!

For an anti-rules kind of guy you seem quite interested in determining whether or not you have followed them to the nth degree of minutiae. ;-)

 

[t2andreo]

Oh phooey! Just do your Camino, get your sellos, and let the others worry about it at the end. You KNOW what you did.

This is part of the reason why I stopped obtaining Compostelas, unless I am doing an "In Vicare Pro" favor for someone. It is also why I intend to make a fully effort his coming season to institute a formal solos sello window booth, or counter position.

In doing this, I want to:

(a) accommodate those folks who truly only want the stamps to signify they got there - all else being spiritual anyway;

(b) reduce some of the overall demand that drives the queue and waiting times, and

(c) see if I can't get this stamps-only distributed to other sites in town, like the various Cathedral gift stores, or perhaps even to include the Pilgrim House... though I have not spoken to them yet.

Hope this helps.

 

[E V Waight]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

No worries. You have earned and well deserved your compostela.
So what if you veered off path? Don't we all in life? We all veer off path from time to time; most probably recognize that. El Camino de Santiago is life. We are born, we live and we die. It is in living that we share what we've learnt. The physical, the mental, the spiritual not to mention the pain. The metaphor of the camino lives in each of us that have experienced it. Tell that to someone who has never taken those steps and you will get a bewildered look. We know! You have a well deserved compostela waiting for you in Santiago. Believe me, you ain't the first! Buen Camino peregrino!

 

[MarkyD]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

First rule, don't put anything in writing, especially on pilgrim forums where the eagle - eyed Compostela infringement police could be scanning casually while enjoying a lovely café con leche and inking their Compostela rubber stamps

PS - sounds like you have nothing to worry about

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

First rule, don't put anything in writing, especially on pilgrim forums where the eagle - eyed Compostela infringement police could be scanning casually while enjoying a lovely café con leche and inking their Compostela rubber stamps

PS - sounds like you have nothing to worry about

 

[martin1ws]

...
I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.
...

As others mentioned before, I think there is no dilemma.
* You walked at least the last 100km.
* You have to stamp the Credencial twice a day at least on the last 100 km (on a 'official' route). I think these stamps are the proof for the 'official' route that is needed.

The yellow arrows or a exact route that is described in a guide book... these are not requirements but only a 'help' to find a good way between the (required) points for the stamps on the official routes.

 

[Speddy]

I "completed " the 500 mile Camino back in 2011.
I proudly and humbly accepted my Compostela.

I had no phone, no hand held device, did not check email- only to announce l had arrived in SD ( little did l know l was arriving at a new beginning: )

Honestly I don't know about these sellos you speak of.

I still choose not to be on any social media. I suppose this might be, however this is no offence to anyone It just affirms why I'm not.

My gentle advice to you-
Put the phone away, check out of devices ,walk with your eyes wide open to you surroundings. Your answers will be with fellow pilgrams.

I choose to walk solo as the Camino provides the space and quietness for me to go deep , really deep inside without chatter.
I was on the Camino again in 2016.
Sadly I have seen a huge shift.
When walking into a town,
I observed 75% of pilgrams on some kind of hand or ear gadget.
I felt like l would be intruding to ask to join them for cafe con leche. Very different from 2011.

I did still get the deep connections with peregrinos, just not like 2011.
This is just my take on your question for what its worth.

Buen Camino my fellow pilgram.


KJ

 

[jmaltais]

Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious. But you are required, to obtain a compostelle, to walk at least 100 km from your starting-point to SdC. You began in Ponferrada. No matter what route you took, it is not possible to get from Ponferrada to SdC without travelling more than 100 km—or 200 km, for that matter.

What route you may have taken from the 100-km waymarker is neither here nor there. If no waymarkers of any kind on the Invierno existed, you would have had to make your way from Ponferrada to SdC by whatever route you thought best, just as our pilgrim forebears did all those centuries ago.

I totally agree with this. As the crow flies, the distance from Ponferrada to Santiago is 164 km.

 

[Davecrossland]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Davecrossland]

Can anyone help me?

I have been walking on the Camino de Invierno starting from Ponferrada last Tuesday. Ponferrada is 263km from SdC via the Invierno. I have collected two sellos each day. I have used nothing except my feet for locomotion.

I passed "a" (I don't think it was "the") 100km mojone yesterday, between Monforte de Lemos and Chantada (though my guide says Chantada is still 103km from SdC).

Today's path passed through Penasillás (94.8km from SdC according to my guide) and then proceeds towards the Ermita Nuestra Señora de O Faro - incidentally the highest point in Galicia. And so I did, in the looming cloud, mist, and threatening rain, climbing continually.

I looked at the measured path in my guide and app. I don't know what is "official" nor exactly what that means.

And I looked at Google. I am not glued to GPS but it has its uses. From close to the cloudy summit I could see a path down to Rodeiro at 10km despite my guides assuring me I had 15km "officially" to go.

I took the unwaymarked path which involved a very steep climb on a cleared path at one point and then a very steep descent. I estimate that out of 10km, more than 8.5km were on tracks, not on tarmac. Some were ancient tracks, some were newer clearance.

I reached Rodeiro with 20.07 recorded on my GPS - a Garmin running watch. Not 25.4km as the "official" (again I say, whatever that means) route states.

So does this mean I have not done what is necessary to be awarded a compostela for the Invierno, (assuming I continue walking and continue collecting two sellos each day)?

If I were to apply for a compostela I would resist any attempt by the pilgrim office to scrutinize my phone records as I think that would infringe my human rights.

But should I in conscience report to the pilgrim office that I have veered from the (semi-mythical) official path? And in so doing, in the final 100km, I have NOT walked 100km. I cannot suggest that I got lost. It was a deliberate choice on my part.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Claim your compostella you have earned it. I walked Invierno in September and struggled to get 2 stamps a day in the last 100km. It was not questioned. I admire your honesty. Remember there are people who are happy to jump in a taxi when things get a little tough or time is tight and still claim the compostella. I once saw a person arrive at a alburgue in a taxi, get out and get a sello then jump back in the taxi and then went on their merry way.