Murder in the Cathedral

[Caminando]

I've just been at a mass in the cathedral in SDC. After the Botafumeiro ceremony, there was a round of applause from the "congregation", though perhaps "audience" might be a better word. I've arrived here a few times and this is the first time I've heard applause. And, despite the many polite notices to avoid using flash, there was a burst of flashes all round.

I find it really disappointing that the cathedral seems to be no more than a Disneyland show (though the baroque altar would support the idea of a show).

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Notwithstanding this notice by the Cathedral:

The Botafumeiro (thurible) is not a spectacle, nor the only thing to see in the Cathedral of Santiago. Today it remains as an integral part of the Eucharistic Celebration during specific days of the year or when there is an offering made by a group.

The following is a list of the days that the Botafumeiro can be seen in some of the masses given at the main altar:
Epiphany of the Lord – January 6th
Easter Sunday and the Resurrection – Holy Week
Ascension of Our Lord – Forty Days after Easter
Celebration of the Apparition of the Apostle
Pentecost Sunday- Fifty days after Easter
Martyrdom of the Apostle Saint James – July 25th
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin – August 15th
All Saints Day – November 1st
Feast of Christ King – Fifth Sunday before Christmas
Immaculate Conception – December 8th
Nativity of our Lord – December 25th
Transfer of the remains of the Apostle – December 30th

The Botafumeiro is a show. Attendance at masses would drop dramatically if there were no Botafumeiro. Disneyland charges for its spectacles; the Cathedral is free (though someone is paying 300 Euro anytime that the Botafumeiro swings except at the times above). If you can let the behavior of others upset your enjoyment of your spirituality, it may be time to walk a little longer. I love the Botafumeiro!

 

[andy.d]

I'd agree with Falcon on this. The Pilgrim Mass is noisy and a spectacle, but I found it deeply spiritual and moving. I've meditated on it here:

http://pilgrimpace.wordpress.com/2010/1 ... -santiago/

Andy

 

[chrisinvermont]

We started from the cathedral in Porto and, when we went there for our sellos, the place was crowded with tour groups, at least 4 bus loads. You couldn't get a look at the main altar. It was blocked by a group whose leader was up front, loudly "informing" everyone. I was reminded of the temple scene in "Superstar." And, when we got to SDC the pilgrim's mass was just ending and there was loud applause and cheering, along with a blast of flashes. I am not denominationally religious but a church is a place of worship. We came to an early mass the next day. It was beautiful.
June 'n Chris

 

[JohnnieWalker]

We came to an early mass the next day. It was beautiful.
June 'n Chris

In my experience the Cathedral at Santiago has services to suit many needs and tastes. The Pilgrims' Mass is the busiest in the day and because of the sense of achievement and elation at arriving there is often a buzz of excitement and animated conversation as pilgrims who have not seen each other for some time meet and embrace. It can be loud and noisy but I have always found it prayerful at the key moments. There was a Mass some months ago with over 100 priests, 20 or so Bishops and a bunch of Cardinals - they were the ones who led the cheering and clapping when the Botafumeiro finished. Indeed you can often see the priests on the altar clapping or using cameras of telephones to take pictures of the Botafumeiro. Church can be fun too.

There are other Masses - the Canon's Mass in the morning where they sing the Office and then the Mass is often said to a virtually empty Cathedral. For those who wish a more serene and individual experience perhaps this is the one for them.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Different strokes....

I LOVED to see the Botafumeiro swinging, and didn't mind at all the applause afterwards.. in fact I applauded myself! It was spectacular!

You might, as someone else suggested, try another time slot, day, week, month... it's different each time. The Cathedral can have a different feel at different times.

If you want a quiet place, try one of the other beautiful churches in Santiago?

 

[Caminando]

Oh dear!

I'm disappointed to be in a minority of two here. It seems that a solemn mass has eroded into a show for cheering and clapping - and, it seems, by priests too; well, maybe I shouldn't be surprised here. The decay in values seems to be widespread, and a tawdry culture is the norm for many. It goes with the electric candles operated by a coin in a slot, now on sale in SDC.

I see here in Porto that you can have a bus trip to SDC where a highlight of the tourist trip is to visit the pilgrim mass. Not for me, but many might find this acceptable. Which is their right of course.

I certainly visited many dignified churches on the way here, and that of course only deepens the loss of values in SDC.

I'm glad of the responses to this topic, as it allows me some idea of what others think, even if that's just a little bit disappointing.

 

[KiwiNomad06]

Caminando,
I was actually surprised at one mass by the reaction of the crowd to the Botafumeiro, and it was a bit like Disneyland. (At the other Mass where I saw it swung, it was all much more of a sedate response.) People raced up the aisles to take photos then had to run back again for their own safety when they realised how huge it was and how widely it swung.

I must admit the long-ago Catholic part of me was quite 'shocked', but the people enjoying the Botafumiero 'performance' most strongly were an Italian pilgrim group with their priest, who had indeed come a long distance to be pilgrims in Santiago. So who was I to 'judge'?
Margaret

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The decay in values seems to be widespread, and a tawdry culture is the norm for many.

I don't speak Spanish, so at a mass, I watch what the little white-haired lady does, and follow her guide. She applauded the botafumeiro at the cathedral, and I don't think of her as either having decayed values, or a tawdry culture.

 

[sillydoll]

Perhaps this IS the accepted behaviour for the cathedral - and always has been?

Anyone who has read historical books on the cathedral will know that things were even more irreverent and chaotic in the middle ages! In the 15th c, Jerónimo Munzer from Nuremberg described the goings on and hubbub in the cathedral as so great that “he would have believed himself at a fair.”

The cathedral was a loud, noisy place, with pilgrims from different nations fighting and squabbling to position themselves close to the altar, singing and dancing to their musical instruments.
Walter Starkie writes about the golden age of the pilgrimage when there were all night vigils in the cathedral and thousands of pilgrims regularly waged battles inside the cathedral - sometimes so severe that blood was spilled and the cathedral had to be re-consecrated.
Early accounts of the cathedral refer to pilgrims lighting fires and cooking food in the cathedral and even bivouacking inside with their cows and horses!
Some reports describe “conducted tours of loutish pilgrims tramping in serried crowds through the basilica, tripping over the kneeling penitents outside the confessionals.” And while this crowd pushed and butted their way around the cathedral, the congregation tried to follow the celebrant of the mass at the high altar.
It seems that cheering and clapping is certainly not new and we, of the 21st century can’t really describe it as a “drop in standards” or a ‘decay in values’ when those standards and values have always been there.

 

[AJ]

Perhaps this IS the accepted behaviour for the cathedral - and always has been? ...

...It seems that cheering and clapping is certainly not new and we, of the 21st century can’t really describe it as a “drop in standards” or a ‘decay in values’ when those standards and values have always been there.

People have not changed fundamentally since the middle ages. We still crave excitement and cannot differentiate between spirituality and emotion. What is really going on in the cathedral?

I saw people taking photos of each other "praying".

 

[Caminando]

Perhaps this IS the accepted behaviour for the cathedral - and always has been?

Anyone who has read historical books on the cathedral will know that things were even more irreverent and chaotic in the middle ages! In the 15th c, Jerónimo Munzer from Nuremberg described the goings on and hubbub in the cathedral as so great that “he would have believed himself at a fair.”

The cathedral was a loud, noisy place, with pilgrims from different nations fighting and squabbling to position themselves close to the altar, singing and dancing to their musical instruments.
Walter Starkie writes about the golden age of the pilgrimage when there were all night vigils in the cathedral and thousands of pilgrims regularly waged battles inside the cathedral - sometimes so severe that blood was spilled and the cathedral had to be re-consecrated.
Early accounts of the cathedral refer to pilgrims lighting fires and cooking food in the cathedral and even bivouacking inside with their cows and horses!
Some reports describe “conducted tours of loutish pilgrims tramping in serried crowds through the basilica, tripping over the kneeling penitents outside the confessionals.” And while this crowd pushed and butted their way around the cathedral, the congregation tried to follow the celebrant of the mass at the high altar.
It seems that cheering and clapping is certainly not new and we, of the 21st century can’t really describe it as a “drop in standards” or a ‘decay in values’ when those standards and values have always been there.

Yes a read through the histories shows all that you have mentioned. I particularly enjoyed Jonathan Sumption's "Pilgrimage".

But I do hope you're not proposing a return to those values. :wink:

 

[Caminando]

The decay in values seems to be widespread, and a tawdry culture is the norm for many.

I don't speak Spanish, so at a mass, I watch what the little white-haired lady does, and follow her guide. She applauded the botafumeiro at the cathedral, and I don't think of her as either having decayed values, or a tawdry culture.

Select your little old lady with care - she may be a hooligan and then there'd be tears. :wink: I suppose you could always avoid the pilgrim mass and have a walk round the Parador instead? :wink:

 

[Caminando]

Notwithstanding this notice by the Cathedral:

The Botafumeiro (thurible) is not a spectacle, nor the only thing to see in the Cathedral of Santiago. Today it remains as an integral part of the Eucharistic Celebration during specific days of the year or when there is an offering made by a group.

The following is a list of the days that the Botafumeiro can be seen in some of the masses given at the main altar:
Epiphany of the Lord – January 6th
Easter Sunday and the Resurrection – Holy Week
Ascension of Our Lord – Forty Days after Easter
Celebration of the Apparition of the Apostle
Pentecost Sunday- Fifty days after Easter
Martyrdom of the Apostle Saint James – July 25th
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin – August 15th
All Saints Day – November 1st
Feast of Christ King – Fifth Sunday before Christmas
Immaculate Conception – December 8th
Nativity of our Lord – December 25th
Transfer of the remains of the Apostle – December 30th

The Botafumeiro is a show. Attendance at masses would drop dramatically if there were no Botafumeiro. Disneyland charges for its spectacles; the Cathedral is free (though someone is paying 300 Euro anytime that the Botafumeiro swings except at the times above). If you can let the behavior of others upset your enjoyment of your spirituality, it may be time to walk a little longer. I love the Botafumeiro!

Ah! at least you have a keen eye for a bargain in entertainment :lol: No, the behaviour of others did not in the least upset my "spirituality". How could it? You may not have understood that religion/culture and "spirituality" are different things. The Stoic, Marcus Aurelius, can help you here when he said that "no-one can implicate me in anything degraded". And I agree. If you want to know more, just PM me.

 

[sillydoll]

No! Definitely not. I could be burned as a witch! No cows and horses, no food fires, no running battles or bloodshed. The clapping and flashing camera bulbs never put me off though.
I LOVE Santiago cathedral, it is truly a pilgrimage cathedral. I try to picture it as Aimery Picaud described it. The tapestries have gone, and the altar canopy might be different, and the three lamps are no longer there but it is essentially the same 'space' as the 12th c priest described it. The best time to visit is when it is quiet and empty. That is when you hear the whispers and sighs of pilgrims past. Magical place.

 

[Caminando]

No! Definitely not. I could be burned as a witch! No cows and horses, no food fires, no running battles or bloodshed. The clapping and flashing camera bulbs never put me off though.
I LOVE Santiago cathedral, it is truly a pilgrimage cathedral. I try to picture it as Aimery Picaud described it. The tapestries have gone, and the altar canopy might be different, and the three lamps are no longer there but it is essentially the same 'space' as the 12th c priest described it. The best time to visit is when it is quiet and empty. That is when you hear the whispers and sighs of pilgrims past. Magical place.

I do agree it's a magical place, as important as Chartres for me. Thats why I was disappointed at what I saw. It's my fourth time there and it was the first time I saw/heard this response. The Pilgrim mass is central to this place and I'm sorry to see it go this way. Imagine! it's part of a bus tour now...... "See the Pilgrim Mass!"

 

[Nandy61]

Interesting, as we clearly take our past experiences with us into the cathedral. Being raised in the post Vatican II American Catholic church, I'm quite used to unorthodoxy, I guess. I mean guitars and jeans in church?!! :wink: But I have to say, I do get a little peeved at the lack of repsect during the mass. The outright talking and laughing etc...it is, after all, a solemn ceremony and the sacrament most central to the church. But, if I recall, the swinging of the Botafumeiro comes after the mass is concluded. In my church, that's always when applause (if warranted) breaks out. And if there is anything that warrants a round of applause in a church, I'd say the botafumeiro is it!

 

[Priscillian]

I'm with Sil all the way on this one. We should be wary of trying to sanitise what has always been very much a LIVING cathedral. The Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela is perhaps unique amongst all the cathedrals on the pilgrim route in that it is a meeting place, a gathering together: a Centre. I will walk right through it to take a "shortcut" and never feel that I am somehow infringing on the sanctity, and I too love every stone of the place and I think I can say that I know it well. It is warm and welcoming. It always feels to me that it "belongs" to the people, not the clergy. It's a nice place to have a personal chat with God: in the Capilla de la Corticela for example, the oldest part of the cathedral and beside the original pilgrim entrance, and a place almost totally ignored by visiting groups.
One thing that no-one has touched on is the following: The Spanish love NOISE. They do not just talk through the "solemn" mass in Compostela but everywhere in Spain. They are usually at the back, but not always. They are chatting about their kids, their shopping trips, their spouses, even the weather (the British don't have a monopoly on Que Frio! or Que Calor!). No-one would consider it in the least disrespectful and therein I think is the key to the question. I've lived in Spain for over 14 years and I have never attended a church where the loudest person there is the priest!
As for the Botefumeiro, we put our hands together in prayer. We do the same when we are AWESTRUCK about something and the Botefumeiro is an awe inspiring sight. Applause is a natural response I think to the sight of something which pleases and amazes.
Tracy Saunders
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com