More Police in tourist areas in Santiago to avoid inappropriate behavior of pilgrims

[caminonews]

https://www.europapress.es/galicia/...tadas-conductas-incivicas-20230626184510.html
Translation:
The municipal government of Santiago gave an order to the Local Police to reinforce surveillance during the coming months, at least until October, in those areas with the most tourist influx. This was announced this Monday by the mayoress, Goretti Sanmartín, in statements to the media after the appearance of new chalk graffiti in the historic center and the detection of uncivil behavior by some visitors, such as a picnic in Praza do Obradoiro that in recent days transcended on social networks.
"We have just given instructions for the Local Police to make a very clear reinforcement in the coming months", confirmed the councilor, to then ask tourists and pilgrims to "comply" with "those issues that are of a minimum knowledge".
Although Sanmartín understands that it is "an occasional issue" and hopes that "it will not be repeated", she has called for all people who visit Santiago to bring "original knowledge" about the historical character of the city. Precisely, about the graffiti, the City Council has already informed the competent administration in matters of Heritage.
Tourists, the mayoress has stressed, "have to guarantee not only the care of their heritage, but also issues such as the right to rest of the neighbors."
What do you think about it?

 

[Bradypus]

There have been a lot of complaints on local news websites and social media about inappropriate behaviour in the past week or two. Not sure whether that reflects a real significant increase in poor behaviour or just more attention being paid to the issue recently. Yesterday there was a story of people setting up tents in the Parque Belvis which was being linked with the earlier stories.

Acampada de turistas en el Parque de Belvís: arrecia la polémica por el comportamiento de algunos peregrinos

Dos tiendas de campaña en pleno Parque de Belvís han acentuado la creciente polémica en Santiago de Compostela sobre comportamientos incívicos por parte de algunos peregrinos y turistas.

www.elcorreogallego.es

 

[DoughnutANZ]

https://www.europapress.es/galicia/...tadas-conductas-incivicas-20230626184510.html
Translation:
The municipal government of Santiago gave an order to the Local Police to reinforce surveillance during the coming months, at least until October, in those areas with the most tourist influx. This was announced this Monday by the mayoress, Goretti Sanmartín, in statements to the media after the appearance of new chalk graffiti in the historic center and the detection of uncivil behavior by some visitors, such as a picnic in Praza do Obradoiro that in recent days transcended on social networks.
"We have just given instructions for the Local Police to make a very clear reinforcement in the coming months", confirmed the councilor, to then ask tourists and pilgrims to "comply" with "those issues that are of a minimum knowledge".
Although Sanmartín understands that it is "an occasional issue" and hopes that "it will not be repeated", she has called for all people who visit Santiago to bring "original knowledge" about the historical character of the city. Precisely, about the graffiti, the City Council has already informed the competent administration in matters of Heritage.
Tourists, the mayoress has stressed, "have to guarantee not only the care of their heritage, but also issues such as the right to rest of the neighbors."
What do you think about it?

Sound great.

 

[SabsP]

Perfect!
There are some serious worries in Santiago de Compostela and they do not want the touristy excesses like on the Ramblas of Barcelona or popular spots in Florence or Venice.

Rest for the locals indeed!

Sad to see how a minority of people make it difficult for those who behave well.

 

[David]

It is difficult with influxes of tourists; on our news today is a video of a young American couple doing "Ivan and Hayley" graffiti on the Coliseum in Rome! and sure, graffiti is as old as Rome - but, really?

and here in Bath (England) we have countless tourists, though all seem rather civilised and happy and the council provide lots of litter bins and so on, but as with all tourist towns we also have many beggars as tourism and beggars go together somehow - the reverse of the coin?

Though, back to Santiago ... a picnic in the Cathedral square? Oh dear, I could/would do that, seems ok to me, as long as nothing is left behind when leaving ... actually, seems more than ok to me ... seems like a lovely thing to do.

Religious centres have always had lots of people visiting and doing what visitors do - I can see why pilgrims might want to chalk messages to their friends who hadn't arrived yet, where they were staying for instance, but I don't like graffiti .. so maybe a notice board somewhere for that task? Rather than criminalise something, incorporate it in a positive way?

 

[oursonpolaire]

In the middle ages, the Archbishop had a prison for pilgrims, so perhaps the new Archbishop might be persuaded to open one up in a disused convent. Hooligans could be sentenced to a week of learning Gregorian chant.

 

[Kirkie]

Perhaps a return to more primitive punishment ...

Stocks - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Former member 22438]

In the middle ages, the Archbishop had a prison for pilgrims, so perhaps the new Archbishop might be persuaded to open one up in a disused convent. Hooligans could be sentenced to a week of learning Gregorian chant.

 

[grayland]

The sometimes crude and disrespectful behavior seen today on the Camino (and other "tourist areas") is not surprising. Graffiti is not new and has been a part of the Camino Frances...at least back to 2009 when we walked our first camino. It has now taken on a much more prolific and crude aspect. Respect and behavior in albergues is often reported as they are seen by some as a cheap party accommodation.

The respect and sense of history and culture is disappearing from the Camino as the commercialization and
touristification slowly takes over.

...Touristification is a process by which a place changes as it becomes an object of tourist consumption. It leads to negative implications for the touristified place and has received both informal and formal opposition...

 

[Tincatinker]

Off-piste but, a few years ago the Chief of Police in Barcelona was asked what he was going to do in response to a noticeable increase of violent robbery around the Rambla and Barrio Gottico particularly affecting tourists disembarking from cruise ships. He said he was going to ban cruise ships....

 

[trecile]

Though, back to Santiago ... a picnic in the Cathedral square? Oh dear, I could/would do that, seems ok to me, as long as nothing is left behind when leaving ... actually, seems more than ok to me ... seems like a lovely thing to do.

All well and good until all 2000 or so pilgrims arriving each day decide to picnic on the plaza.

 

[grayland]

Probably bringing the picnic on the people/luggage transfer.
Walking is boring.

 

[dick bird]

Fair enough, it is their city. I suspect the police will be taking a fairly soft approach by warning visitors not to overdo it rather than busting them.

 

[dbier]

Metallica????
Awesome recording...

 

[Paul McAmino]

For what it’s worth, there was a regulation in force last summer, 2022:

"Warning for those who visit Santiago: you can not eat or drink in the Plaza del Obradoiro"

This is the title of the (longish) thread.

All the best,
Paul

 

[BindySweett]

The sometimes crude and disrespectful behavior seen today on the Camino (and other "tourist areas") is not surprising. Graffiti is not new and has been a part of the Camino Frances...at least back to 2009 when we walked our first camino. It has now taken on a much more prolific and crude aspect. Respect and behavior in albergues is often reported as they are seen by some as a cheap party accommodation.

The respect and sense of history and culture is disappearing from the Camino as the commercialization and
touristification slowly takes over.

...Touristification is a process by which a place changes as it becomes an object of tourist consumption. It leads to negative implications for the touristified place and has received both informal and formal opposition...

I think this is the crux of the problem. When in Rome right? Behave in accordance with cultural norms. Don't just come, consume & leave again.

 

[WGroleau]

https://www.europapress.es/galicia/...tadas-conductas-incivicas-20230626184510.html

Your translation says "tourists" three times, "visitors" once, and "pilgrims" once. So I think your title gives a misleading impression that pilgrims are the offenders. Though I've certainly seen evidence that some pilgrims—and some tourists and some locals—are barbarians.

 

[Canche]

Sounds good to me.

 

[dangif123]

https://www.europapress.es/galicia/...tadas-conductas-incivicas-20230626184510.html
Translation:
The municipal government of Santiago gave an order to the Local Police to reinforce surveillance during the coming months, at least until October, in those areas with the most tourist influx. This was announced this Monday by the mayoress, Goretti Sanmartín, in statements to the media after the appearance of new chalk graffiti in the historic center and the detection of uncivil behavior by some visitors, such as a picnic in Praza do Obradoiro that in recent days transcended on social networks.
"We have just given instructions for the Local Police to make a very clear reinforcement in the coming months", confirmed the councilor, to then ask tourists and pilgrims to "comply" with "those issues that are of a minimum knowledge".
Although Sanmartín understands that it is "an occasional issue" and hopes that "it will not be repeated", she has called for all people who visit Santiago to bring "original knowledge" about the historical character of the city. Precisely, about the graffiti, the City Council has already informed the competent administration in matters of Heritage.
Tourists, the mayoress has stressed, "have to guarantee not only the care of their heritage, but also issues such as the right to rest of the neighbors."
What do you think about it?

This is unavoidable with increased tourism. But very good that the authorities are getting ahead of it before it starts.

 

[KarinaH]

It is difficult with influxes of tourists; on our news today is a video of a young American couple doing "Ivan and Hayley" graffiti on the Coliseum in Rome! and sure, graffiti is as old as Rome - but, really?

and here in Bath (England) we have countless tourists, though all seem rather civilised and happy and the council provide lots of litter bins and so on, but as with all tourist towns we also have many beggars as tourism and beggars go together somehow - the reverse of the coin?

Though, back to Santiago ... a picnic in the Cathedral square? Oh dear, I could/would do that, seems ok to me, as long as nothing is left behind when leaving ... actually, seems more than ok to me ... seems like a lovely thing to do.

Religious centres have always had lots of people visiting and doing what visitors do - I can see why pilgrims might want to chalk messages to their friends who hadn't arrived yet, where they were staying for instance, but I don't like graffiti .. so maybe a notice board somewhere for that task? Rather than criminalise something, incorporate it in a positive way?

I know there is the "Ugly American" stereotype that, sadly, has been well-earned by many. However, "Graffitti Ivan" and his girl are NOT American. Please don't give us more blame than is due! (Sorry, but maybe I am a little sensitive...)

 

[Bradypus]

However, "Graffitti Ivan" and his girl are NOT American.

Apparently the man is a Bulgarian national resident in the UK.

 

[Susan T]

It is difficult with influxes of tourists; on our news today is a video of a young American couple doing "Ivan and Hayley" graffiti on the Coliseum in Rome! and sure, graffiti is as old as Rome - but, really?

and here in Bath (England) we have countless tourists, though all seem rather civilised and happy and the council provide lots of litter bins and so on, but as with all tourist towns we also have many beggars as tourism and beggars go together somehow - the reverse of the coin?

Though, back to Santiago ... a picnic in the Cathedral square? Oh dear, I could/would do that, seems ok to me, as long as nothing is left behind when leaving ... actually, seems more than ok to me ... seems like a lovely thing to do.

Religious centres have always had lots of people visiting and doing what visitors do - I can see why pilgrims might want to chalk messages to their friends who hadn't arrived yet, where they were staying for instance, but I don't like graffiti .. so maybe a notice board somewhere for that task? Rather than criminalise something, incorporate it in a positive way?

I certainly would not want my name carved into a place of mass death such as was the history of the Coliseum in Rome! I have gone there and said a prayer for the people who perished there.

 

[David61]

I would think the vast majority of pilgrims breach the rules of Spain. As we know many, if not most like to do the Camino on the cheap but
"Currently, the minimum amount of money that you need to prove you have is €100 per person per day (£85), with a minimum of €900 (or its equivalent in foreign money) effective from January 1, 2022."
Average full Camino around 35 days? We all have enough money, right?

Plus we all book all our accommodation before leaving home, don't we?
"At Spanish border control, you may need to:

• show a return or onward ticket
• show you have enough money for your stay
• show proof of accommodation for your stay, for example, a hotel booking confirmation, proof of address if visiting your own property (e.g. second home), or an invitation from your host or proof of their address if staying with a third party, friends or family."
• My point, and I think most will agree the Spanish police and authorities enforce their laws with quite a light hand in regard to tourists. I would think this will be no different

 

[Pathfinder075]

Apparently the man is a Bulgarian national resident in the UK.

Another dumbass that thought he could do what the hell he wanted. I read he has been apologising to the Italian police and asking whether he will get a prison sentence, which i think isn't a good punishment for this offence. The good old community service would be a better option, basically clean up the colliseum for a week or two, get to see why you should show some respect for the place.

I would think the vast majority of pilgrims breach the rules of Spain. As we know many, if not most like to do the Camino on the cheap but
"Currently, the minimum amount of money that you need to prove you have is €100 per person per day (£85), with a minimum of €900 (or its equivalent in foreign money) effective from January 1, 2022."
Average full Camino around 35 days? We all have enough money, right?

Plus we all book all our accommodation before leaving home, don't we?
"At Spanish border control, you may need to:

• show a return or onward ticket
• show you have enough money for your stay
• show proof of accommodation for your stay, for example, a hotel booking confirmation, proof of address if visiting your own property (e.g. second home), or an invitation from your host or proof of their address if staying with a third party, friends or family."
• My point, and I think most will agree the Spanish police and authorities enforce their laws with quite a light hand in regard to tourists. I would think this will be no different

The problem is if they decided to enforce this, they would kiss there tourist trade good bye, which I'm sure would completely screw the country up.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Though, back to Santiago ... a picnic in the Cathedral square? Oh dear, I could/would do that, seems ok to me, as long as nothing is left behind when leaving ... actually, seems more than ok to me ... seems like a lovely thing to do.

If everyone were discreet and left no trace, but truth is very many are not and do leave one.

Religious centres have always had lots of people visiting and doing what visitors do - I can see why pilgrims might want to chalk messages to their friends who hadn't arrived yet, where they were staying for instance, but I don't like graffiti .. so maybe a notice board somewhere for that task? Rather than criminalise something, incorporate it in a positive way?

The chalk thing has been very exaggerated -- it's impermanent, and the plaza is cleaned IIRC twice/day with powerful water spraying machines. Poor peregrina to have been so singled out in the local Press for having done so much less than some serious vandals, but well -- there's the Camino for you !!

But chalk messages all over the plaza ? No thanks !!

It's not as bad as the burning of hydrocarbons hiker kit near the lighthouse at Fisterra, but the general imposition of graffiti and trash along these Ways of Saint James is no positive contribution IMO.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I would think the vast majority of pilgrims breach the rules of Spain. As we know many, if not most like to do the Camino on the cheap but
"Currently, the minimum amount of money that you need to prove you have is €100 per person per day (£85), with a minimum of €900 (or its equivalent in foreign money) effective from January 1, 2022."

Not if you are a foot pilgrim walking into Spain from France or Portugal. Or the other directions. Though the minimum €900 thing one should be more careful about ; though I *think* that technically it's at least €900 on arrival plus at least €900/month. For shorter stays, the more rigorous requirements can apply.

It's a rule concerning passengers into Spain via Spanish ports and airports. And probably international arrivals at major train stations, though that's just a guess as I have yet to see any reports as to that particular situation.

"At Spanish border control, you may need to:

• show a return or onward ticket
• show you have enough money for your stay
• show proof of accommodation for your stay, for example, a hotel booking confirmation, proof of address if visiting your own property (e.g. second home), or an invitation from your host or proof of their address if staying with a third party, friends or family."

All perfectly true, but the Spanish Police are generally quite tolerant of foot pilgrims on these silly Ways of Saint James !!

And what tickets, if you've walked into Spain and then perhaps again walked out into Portugal or France ?

 

[grayland]

I think the required funds must be "available" which would include access to ATMs and banks.

Most would have that...at least I would hope so.

 

[Pathfinder075]

I wish I did, but I'm poor. My Camino this year will be shoestring level. I will probably have 900 euros for the entire time. Aim is 20 euros per day.

 

[Chizuru]

In the middle ages, the Archbishop had a prison for pilgrims, so perhaps the new Archbishop might be persuaded to open one up in a disused convent. Hooligans could be sentenced to a week of learning Gregorian chant.

Love that idea.

 

[Chizuru]

I wish I did, but I'm poor. My Camino this year will be shoestring level. I will probably have 900 euros for the entire time. Aim is 20 euros per day.

You certainly couldn’t do that in France. The cheapest Gite that we stayed in was around 50€ including a meal and dorm and picnic lunch.

 

[JabbaPapa]

You certainly couldn’t do that in France. The cheapest Gite that we stayed in was around 50€ including a meal and dorm and picnic lunch.

There are albergues in France too, and I've slept for far cheaper than that, and virtually never in a gîte ...

 

[trecile]

You certainly couldn’t do that in France. The cheapest Gite that we stayed in was around 50€ including a meal and dorm and picnic lunch.

I believe that @Pathfinder075 is planning to camp quite a bit.

 

[Pathfinder075]

Yes I will be camping quite a lot, not just for financial reasons, but health reasons too.

I will also use the occasional albergue. But between the food allergies and animal allergies it kind of cuts down on options. One thing that does seem to be nice is the Vadiniense has many campsites and most offer pilgrim rates. So for the first 10 or so days it's not too bad for the camping side. Yes you lose out on the Camino side maybe, but I honestly wonder if anyone else will be on it beyond Potes in September. Beyond that I will find campsites as and when. I also want to use some of the smaller albergues on the Salvador. Cabanillas would be one of them (and it also falls nicely in distance from Puente Villarente or Mansilla if I do it as a single day walk via Leon). I haven't researched camping on the Primitivo, but there are bound to be places, even if it's like the albergue at Foncebadon that lets you pitch on the grass across from it.

But yes i say poor, but I have met and known people worse off than I am. But due to my issues I do things that many on here wouldn't or couldn't. The pack size being one of them. I think only the people carrying CPAP walk with similar weight.

This also won't be my first sub 1000 camino. Both the ones I did in 2016 and 2017 I had even less on, roughly 600 euros for each one. I took tips from other peregrinos that were camping for various reasons (having animals or phobias of enclosed spaces). Some nights were spent in cloisters, cemeteries and woods. Pitch at dusk, pack up at dawn and leave no trace.

But I like to go on Camino and the price for me is total self sufficiency.

 

[Pharmgirl]

Another dumbass that thought he could do what the hell he wanted. I read he has been apologising to the Italian police and asking whether he will get a prison sentence, which i think isn't a good punishment for this offence. The good old community service would be a better option, basically clean up the colliseum for a week or two, get to see why you should show some respect for the place.


The problem is if they decided to enforce this, they would kiss there tourist trade good bye, which I'm sure would completely screw the country up.

I don't think it would impact most tourism. If not being able to destroy priceless heritage would ruin your vacation, I'm sure the country doesn't want or need you. I hope he gets a huge fine and jail time.

 

[Bradypus]

Another incident that the local news sites are adding to the growing list of poor behaviour: someone filmed using the 16th century carvings of the Puerta Santa as a climbing wall.

https://www.elcorreogallego.es/sant...dente-turismo-incivico-santiago-89399311.html

 

[Pathfinder075]

Another incident that the local news sites are adding to the growing list of poor behaviour: someone filmed using the 16th century carvings of the Puerta Santa as a climbing wall.

https://www.elcorreogallego.es/sant...dente-turismo-incivico-santiago-89399311.html

Naughty, naughty. One must always wear the correct clothing when climbing on historical buildings.

 

[dbier]

Another incident that the local news sites are adding to the growing list of poor behaviour: someone filmed using the 16th century carvings of the Puerta Santa as a climbing wall.

https://www.elcorreogallego.es/sant...dente-turismo-incivico-santiago-89399311.html

I do hope they fined him severely. One would have thought that someone with the skills to scale a building would also know that that activity is illegal in most Western countries.

 

[Pathfinder075]

I don't agree with it, but it happens. I've seen people climbing statues when I was out in 2016, I think even a small chapel somewhere in between Palas de Rei and Arzua, someone was on the side of a church. Looked like a local tbh and had climbing shoes on.

Some people seem to just feel the need to scale everything. I used to free climb, but the older you get, the more aware you are of how long it takes to heal from injuries. Falling from the side of a church is going to hurt, not to mention old carvings are not going to be the most solid hand holds ever. No common sense used at all. Plenty of places to climb out at the coast, or up in the Picos.

So I looked at the video again. Is that even a pilgrim. Could be anyone and it's definitely someone who knows how to climb. But the clothes are not the type that pilgrims tend to wear. Maybe a tourist?

 

[Bradypus]

It seems that a group of pilgrims decided to be deliberately provocative yesterday and set up their tent in the Obradoiro. A very brief display and quickly removed. Perhaps in response to the recent controversy on the news websites.

Un grupo de peregrinos monta su tienda de campaña en la Praza do Obradoiro

La Policía Local de Santiago intervino con rapidez y obligó a desmontar una instalación con la que el Concello asegura que se quiso «provocar e facer un show»

www.lavozdegalicia.es

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

It is difficult with influxes of tourists; on our news today is a video of a young American couple doing "Ivan and Hayley" graffiti on the Coliseum in Rome!

He is not from the US , he is from the UK.

 

[David61]

He is not from the US , he is from the UK.

No, he is Bulgarian and moved to the UK. Not "from".

 

[SabsP]

It seems that a group of pilgrims decided to be deliberately provocative yesterday and set up their tent in the Obradoiro. A very brief display and quickly removed. Perhaps in response to the recent controversy on the news websites.

Un grupo de peregrinos monta su tienda de campaña en la Praza do Obradoiro

La Policía Local de Santiago intervino con rapidez y obligó a desmontar una instalación con la que el Concello asegura que se quiso «provocar e facer un show»

www.lavozdegalicia.es

Another perfect example of selfish entitlement from this group of pilgrims.
I did an internetsearch for the translation of " plaatsvervangende schaamte " ( Dutch ) and I learned something new. It is called vicarious embarrassment.
But I guess someone here will soon chime in that we should be more empathic for these offenders, etc etc.

Yes surely, local police really has no other issues to deal with!

 

[VNwalking]

vicarious embarrassment.

I'm not embarrassed because those jerks are not me, or anything to do with me. If they were pilgrims they would be more considerate.

That said I fail to completely understand the outrage over the use of chalk. It washes off, after all. I guess it's fear of snowballing numbers of copycats, fuelled by the social media.

 

[Bradypus]

That said I fail to completely understand the outrage over the use of chalk. It washes off, after all. I guess it's fear of snowballing numbers of copycats, fuelled by the social media.

That may be part of the reason. And perhaps the fear of escalation - once chalk is considered acceptable then perhaps someone else will choose to use marker pens or paint to give their own inscriptions an extra vibrant appearance which stands out from the rest? The Cruz de Ferro has gradually evolved from a place to leave a stone to an ugly display of garbage. Though I think most of the negative reaction was more to do with the self-centred ostentatious nature of the act itself.

 

[VNwalking]

And perhaps the fear of escalation

Yes. Good point. I hadn't considered this - copycats yes, but Sharpies or paint no. And of course someone would do that.

 

[WGroleau]

Not if you are a foot pilgrim walking into Spain from France or Portugal. Or the other directions. Though the minimum €900 thing one should be more careful about ; though I *think* that technically it's at least €900 on arrival plus at least €900/month. For shorter stays, the more rigorous requirements can apply.

I never heard that rule, and have never been asked in a dozen entrances into Spain. However, to get a visa to stay longer than ninety days, one must prove income of four times IPREM. IPREM is what the Spanish government claims is a bare minimum subsistence. I have spent seventeen months in Spain (in legal trips of ninety days or less) with an income of about two times IPREM, and was quite comfortable. Strangely, a student visa only requires one IPREM!

And what tickets, if you've walked into Spain and then perhaps again walked out into Portugal or France ?

Spain, Portugal, and France are among the 26 Schengen countries that have agreed to have open borders with each other and to use a common set of rules for all people from outside.

 

[C clearly]

There are many other threads discussing Schengen rules, so let's not get distracted on this thread.

 

[SabsP]

Food for thought.

Abarrote de peregrinos un verano más: ¿Santiago está perdiendo sus calles en favor del Camino?

Los vecinos denuncian la conversión de la zona vieja en un parque temático para turistas en cuanto llega el buen tiempo y claman por un peregrinaje compatible con la ciudadanía

www.lavozdegalicia.es

 

[JabbaPapa]

Spain, Portugal, and France are among the 26 Schengen countries that have agreed to have open borders with each other and to use a common set of rules for all people from outside.

Yes but those rules principally concern entry and exit via ports and airports.

There is a degree of grey zone with border crossings on foot, regardless the otherwise clear rules concerning length of stay.

Certainly those travelling into Schengen/the EU via a port or airport should follow these rules religiously -- and seek long-term visa arrangements if their project exceeds those boundaries.

I'm just saying that there's some legal quirkiness at some international borders. I go down shopping outside the EU and technically outside Schengen several times a week -- that's more than 90/180, but it's not illegal (though I have seen some suggestion that 90/180 is going away for those of us resident in the EU with the new ETIAS system ??!?).

---

EDIT -- Sorry -- won't follow this up further.

 

[SBurgess]

1-Will there be extra police in the Cathedral to stop "pilgrims" from speaking on their cell phones during Mass? Yes, I sat next to such a person! And he wasn't an American. It does get tiring listening to many Europeans complain about Ugly Americans while ignoring the disrespect shown by non-Americans.
2-As has been pointed out, Ivan, of Coliseum graffiti fame, wasn't an American. He was from a European country.
3-Please remember, a very small percentage of pilgrims, regardless of country of origin, are insensitive to others, their surroundings, or other cultures.
....my humble comments...

 

[JabbaPapa]

According to El Correo Gallego, and the President of the Xunta :

https://www.elcorreogallego.es/sant...terminar-actos-incivicos-ciudad-89615655.html

Those responsible for these poor activities are a mix of locals, tourists, and pilgrims.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

the 26 Schengen countries

When I'm not mistaking there are 27 Schengen Countries

 

[SBurgess]

The tourist who made the video of graffiti Ivan and then posted it on social media was an American. He also lives about 35 miles/56 Km from me here in the state of California. (I live in the County of Los Angeles, he lives in the County of Orange).

 

[SBurgess]

I tried to download the news article from the Orange County Register, Monday, July 10, but was unable to do so.
"OC tourist's video of man defacing the coliseum in Rome makes international news".

 

[trecile]

I tried to download the news article from the Orange County Register, Monday, July 10, but was unable to do so.
"OC tourist's video of man defacing the coliseum in Rome makes international news".

Here's the article

OC tourist’s video of man defacing the Colosseum in Rome makes international news

Footage captured by Ryan Lutz shows a person appearing to etch names into the nearly 2,000-year-old bricks of the ancient amphitheater.

www.ocregister.com

 

[peregrina2000]

If you can believe it, the article describes 6 other similar incidents since 2014.

“A Russian tourist in 2014 was fined about $20,000 and given a four-month prison sentence for carving his initial, K, onto a wall of the Colosseum.”

 

[SBurgess]

Here's the article

OC tourist’s video of man defacing the Colosseum in Rome makes international news

Footage captured by Ryan Lutz shows a person appearing to etch names into the nearly 2,000-year-old bricks of the ancient amphitheater.

www.ocregister.com

Thank you trecile

 

[SBurgess]

Sadly, defacing the Coliseum has happened again. This time a Swiss teen (female) was guilty of defacing.
Just curious, has anyone now walking the Camino (any route) noticed defacing actions increasing on the Camino? Not just in Santiago.

 

[Bradypus]

Just curious, has anyone now walking the Camino (any route) noticed defacing actions increasing on the Camino? Not just in Santiago.

I walked the Frances in January and was sad to see a great deal of graffiti along the way. Though I could not honestly say whether it was any worse than on my previous CF walk in 2016. Some of those writing or painting repeated their messages many times. Very depressing sight.

 

[Anhalter]

I can't say if it is increasing on the Frances, i walked 2019 for the first time and in would say by rule of lower numbers it must have been less bad 20 years ago. But for 2019 to2022... nope, pretty much the same. While the artistic graffitis made me smile, and the encouraging/thoughtful little sentences did sometimes do the same, the stickers from various influencers, brands, cities and sports teams along with the "patriots" proclaiming their ideas was just annoying. Yeah, it's not going to make a difference if you smear over either the Castilla or Leon on the camino waystone... Sometimes i wonder what goes on in peoples heads.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Not only is the miscreant who damaged the colosseum a Bulgarian residing in the UK. He also lives, works and came from Bristol.
I hang my head in shame.

 

[Lindsay53]

I noticed on the way to Fisterra that some clown had left his tag on almost every waymarker for several hours walking.

 

[Former member 54877]

Not only is the miscreant who damaged the colosseum a Bulgarian residing in the UK. He also lives, works and came from Bristol.
I hang my head in shame.

Don't be so hard on yourself, Bristle Boy; they come from everywhere.

Teenage girl caught carving her name into Rome Colosseum

Local tour guide caught the act of vandalism on camera

www.independent.co.uk

But what is even sadder in this new case is that the parents were allegedly blasé about their daughter's behaviour, saying: “she’s just a kid, she wasn’t doing anything wrong”.

(BTW, the Rome Colosseum became a pilgrimage site honouring Christian martyrs after Pope Clement X declared it a sacred site of martyrdom in 1675, a view also later reinforced by Pope Benedict XIV in 1749, even though there is no documented evidence that Christians were killed there for their faith. Nonetheless, today, some still consider it a symbol of Christian martyrdom. )

 

[Bradypus]

Someone apparently thought it was a good idea to pick up a Camino signpost from the side of the path, carry it into town then abandon it beside the cathedral.

Un peregrino llega a Santiago cargando una señal indicativa del Camino en lo que parece ser el enésimo acto incívico en apenas un mes

www-lavozdegalicia-es.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Bristle Boy]

Someone apparently thought it was a good idea to pick up a Camino signpost from the side of the path, carry it into town then abandon it beside the cathedral.

Un peregrino llega a Santiago cargando una señal indicativa del Camino en lo que parece ser el enésimo acto incívico en apenas un mes

www-lavozdegalicia-es.cdn.ampproject.org

Probably thought it was funny and regrets giving his permission to have his photograph taken.

 

[SioCamino]

Wow, today i learnt the spanish for umpteenth! El enésimo

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Probably thought it was funny and regrets giving his permission to have his photograph taken.

Well, he did cover his face with the sign post he carried.

 

[peregrina2000]

The young man says he found the sign pulled out of the earth and lying on the ground and decided to carry it on his shoulders into Obradoiro, sort of like an offering. I assume he now wishes he had left it where he found it. The author of the article must have spoken directly with him because he describes a “German accent.”

 

[Bradypus]

The young man says he found the sign pulled out of the earth and lying on the ground

It may have fallen over accidentally or been pulled out of its original site by some vandal. Neither seems like enough justification for taking it and then dumping it in central Santiago.

 

[Bradypus]

La Voz de Galicia is returning to the topic of inappropriate behaviour again today. This time people sleeping in the Azabacheria right outside the cathedral.

Un grupo de peregrinos amanece durmiendo delante de la Catedral de Santiago

La foto se hizo a las 08.10 horas de este viernes en Azabachería. En el Obradoiro, y pese a la anunciada vigilancia de la Policía Local, las malas prácticas continúan con sucesivos pícnics. Vota y opina: ¿Crees que se están tomando las medidas suficientes ante los actos incívicos?

www.lavozdegalicia.es

 

[Kirkie]

A deep sigh. It is 43 years since saying to ragamuffins: "I know your mother" knowing it was a deterrent. Those same ragamuffins now cheerfully greet me, and have grown out of it.
Today's ragamuffins - my loose descriptor - are a much more dangerous species.
What can we do? That is not just a rhetorical question.
In everyday life, I am much more hesitant to challenge ignorant behaviour. I could end up stone dead on the pavement. Thank God my parents are long gone and don't have to see what was in the article posted by @Bradypus.

 

[dbier]

I observe, with much irony, that the typical tourist to Santiago may become more preferable to the neighbors.
Very sad.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I observe, with much irony, that the typical tourist to Santiago may become more preferable to the neighbors.
Very sad.

There is huge irony given the discussion going on with regard to the Forum rules.

 

[SabsP]

La Voz de Galicia is returning to the topic of inappropriate behaviour again today. This time people sleeping in the Azabacheria right outside the cathedral.

Un grupo de peregrinos amanece durmiendo delante de la Catedral de Santiago

La foto se hizo a las 08.10 horas de este viernes en Azabachería. En el Obradoiro, y pese a la anunciada vigilancia de la Policía Local, las malas prácticas continúan con sucesivos pícnics. Vota y opina: ¿Crees que se están tomando las medidas suficientes ante los actos incívicos?

www.lavozdegalicia.es

What is this lately?
Is there an Instagram influencer somewhere promoting this kind of behaviour? Or maybe an insane article telling this is now the latest trend?
I sometimes fear for mankind. I really do.
And no, my statement has nothing to do with the pilgrim/ tourist discussion here.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Pilgrims sleeping in the streets is at least partially from the Municipality having blocked for the past couple decades or so the project for a large Municipal Albergue inside the city, plus having greatly limited the number of cheap beds at Monte do Gozo but instead having farmed out most of them to private companies.

Now, finding myself without a bed, that is not what I would do myself -- but those who find themselves in such circumstance for the very first time on their first Camino upon reaching Santiago ?

And remember -- this was around July 25th, when Santiago is at its very busiest. Embarrassed perhaps that the King or one of his family had to see pilgrims sleeping outdoors on the Feast Day of Saint James ?

Hit articles blaming pilgrims for the lack of facilities for them when the Municipality has egregiously refused permission for the construction of such facilities are not what I take overmuch seriously against those sleeping rough.

 

[SabsP]

Food for thought. Thank you @JabbaPapa . But if I would have been in that situation I would have opted for a park.

 

[Pathfinder075]

What is this lately?
Is there an Instagram influencer somewhere promoting this kind of behaviour? Or maybe an insane article telling this is now the latest trend?
I sometimes fear for mankind. I really do.
And no, my statement has nothing to do with the pilgrim/ tourist discussion here.

You walk into Santiago, you get there really late for some reason, maybe one of your group had an accident or something, but you find no albergues are admitting people and maybe you don't have the money available for an expensive hotel. You have to adapt and improvise your way out of the situation. But sleeping outside the cathedral is dumb and the ground won't be all that comfortable.

I would have gone for somewhere with grass and somewhere less controversial. There are no shortages of green spaces in Santiago you could throw down a sleeping bag for a night behind or under a bush, but the key thing is to be gone by first light.

 

[C clearly]

The park might be more comfortable, but I think I might feel safer in the open square by the Cathedral.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

According to a article in La Voz today , more measures will be taken.

El Ayuntamiento de Santiago sancionará las muestras de incivismo si no funciona la vía informativa

Borja Verea afirma que la situación «se lles está indo completamente das mans» y defiende medidas ejemplarizantes

www.lavozdegalicia.es

 

[Bradypus]

La Voz de Galicia are keeping up the focus on the problem with another article.

Lo último en los desmanes incívicos en Santiago: pícnic con cámping gas en el Obradoiro

Un grupo de jóvenes se puso a comer en las escaleras de la plaza tras calentar una sopa. Vota y opina: ¿Crees que se están tomando las medidas suficientes ante los actos incívicos?

www.lavozdegalicia.es

 

[Pathfinder075]

La Voz de Galicia are keeping up the focus on the problem with another article.

Lo último en los desmanes incívicos en Santiago: pícnic con cámping gas en el Obradoiro

Un grupo de jóvenes se puso a comer en las escaleras de la plaza tras calentar una sopa. Vota y opina: ¿Crees que se están tomando las medidas suficientes ante los actos incívicos?

www.lavozdegalicia.es

So they are looking at imposing fines of between 60 and 300 euros on pilgrims that break the rules. It will probably work. But it seems like the local police don't have the stomach for actually carrying out these rules. So I guess we will see. Seems like the local police don't care so far. I suppose they have bigger crimes to solve than who made the soup outside the cathedral.

 

[grayland]

It is all a part of the steady decline in the attitude and motivation of the pilgrims over the past 10 years.
The last 5 years of rapid commercialization in all areas of the CF ( and a couple of others) have brought about a huge change in many of those who now "hike" the routes.

 

[dick bird]

I’m 2018, the latest figures I can find, approximately 400000 pilgrims arrived in Santiago. Approximately 430000 other visitors arrived, mainly conventional tourists. Statistically, there are bound to be a few badly behaved individuals amongst such a large number of people and it is only natural for the local authorities to try and do something about it,

 

[JabbaPapa]

It is all a part of the steady decline in the attitude and motivation of the pilgrims over the past 10 years.
The last 5 years of rapid commercialization in all areas of the CF ( and a couple of others) have brought about a huge change in many of those who now "hike" the routes.

The only major change of this nature that I saw on the Francès last year, compared to the 2014, was the massively much larger proportion of "Sarria pilgrims" ; including a huge increase of organised tours walking in large groups, coach-supported and with day packs at most, and with sleeping arrangements outside the Albergues network, and really not socially integrated with the foot pilgrims generally ; and the much larger proportion of young Spanish pilgrims solo or in small groups initially but congregating into large groups, and very party-going ones (there's some of this on the Portuguese, but then they seem to be concurrently quite a bit more serious about the hiking and biking and religious aspects).

Coach-supported groups of pilgrims 10 years ago generally made a lot more social effort towards the backpacking foot pilgrims than they seem to nowadays, though I guess the fact that such groups were fewer in number made that socialising easier.

I saw more commercialisation on the Portuguese routes north of Porto than on the Francès, I'd guess because there were fewer older pilgrim support infrastructures to start with on the Portuguese, whereas many older structures persist on the Francès.

 

[dick bird]

This thread is veering away from the topic. Please address the issue raised in the thread title. This is a gentle warning. So far.

 

[WGroleau]

When I'm not mistaking there are 27 Schengen Countries

Correct. Croatia joined this year.

 

[Kirkie]

It is all a part of the steady decline in the attitude and motivation of the pilgrims over the past 10 years.
The last 5 years of rapid commercialization in all areas of the CF ( and a couple of others) have brought about a huge change in many of those who now "hike" the routes.

Thanks, and just be patient. The Camino will outlast us,

 

[Lindsay53]

I believe there was a special prison in Triacastela for medieval pilgrims who misbehaved. Maybe the tradition could be revived?

 

[JabbaPapa]

So apparently pilgrims arriving these days have no idea about any of the rules against these practices, and the author of the following article thinks that whichever information campaign the Municipality has set up just is not working :

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...da-me-avisado-absoluto/0003_202308S4C3991.htm

 

[SabsP]

So apparently pilgrims arriving these days have no idea about any of the rules against these practices, and the author of the following article thinks that whichever information campaign the Municipality has set up just is not working :

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...da-me-avisado-absoluto/0003_202308S4C3991.htm

But should it not be common sense to know about general rules of politeness?

Are we becoming a society where everything has to be explicitly explained?

Ah maybe I'm getting old .

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

But should it not be common sense to know about general rules of politeness?

Absolutely

 

[dick bird]

I’ve quoted this number already but I’ll quote it again. Santiago receives around 850000 visitors a year, less than half of whom are pilgrims. If 1% misbehave, that is 8500 misbehavers a year or an average of 23 a day, but more in summer in the high season. It is a question of sheer numbers, not necessarily a general moral decline, and yes, in the Middle Ages there were some very shifty characters about. They were called ‘picaros’, whatever that means.

 

[trecile]

They were called ‘picaros’, whatever that means.

 

[dick bird]

View attachment 153982

Sort of guessed that from context. Curiously, the last published Tintín book was titled ‘Tintin et les Picaros’. Interesting.

 

[SabsP]

I’ve quoted this number already but I’ll quote it again. Santiago receives around 850000 visitors a year, less than half of whom are pilgrims. If 1% misbehave, that is 8500 misbehavers a year or an average of 23 a day, but more in summer in the high season. It is a question of sheer numbers, not necessarily a general moral decline, and yes, in the Middle Ages there were some very shifty characters about. They were called ‘picaros’, whatever that means.

Of course there is the wonderful picaresque literature with Lazarillo de Tormes as the perfect example.

Lazarillo de Tormes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Novela picaresca - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

 

[JabbaPapa]

I’ve quoted this number already but I’ll quote it again. Santiago receives around 850000 visitors a year

That's the number of people sleeping at least one night there, if I remember the recent article on that question correctly. This plus day visitors will be a much higher number.

But should it not be common sense to know about general rules of politeness?

The pilgrims in the article were having their quick snacks out in the open -- which is something that many pilgrims do as a matter of course. It's not obvious to know which municipalities disallow it, though clearly excesses in doing so shouldn't need to be explained.

Are we becoming a society where everything has to be explicitly explained?

Ah maybe I'm getting old .

 

[Kathor1]

I think that I have located this new Code of Good Practice for Santiago but I am not sure. Does anybody know what it actually says and looks like? There is apparently a variety of posters and leaflets for use of this awareness campaign.

If it's the one I have seen then I particularly like point 3 about Authenticity: Do not be fooled by pseudo-traditions and inappropriate practices.

 

[Kathor1]

PS: I had a look on the website of the Cathedral of Santiago and of the Tourism Office but as I said I am not sure that this is what we are talking about:

Código de buenas prácticas – Turismo sostenible | Catedral de Santiago

catedraldesantiago.es

Turismo sostenible | Web Oficial de Turismo de Santiago de Compostela y sus Alrededores

Web oficial de turismo de Santiago de Compostela: etapa final del Camino de Santiago de Compostela. Ofrece información sobre Hoteles en Santiago de Compostela y la Catedral de Santiago.

www.santiagoturismo.com

 

[David Tallan]

But should it not be common sense to know about general rules of politeness?

Are we becoming a society where everything has to be explicitly explained?

Ah maybe I'm getting old .

To be fair, I would not know that it is against the general rules of politeness to picnic in a public square in Europe (assuming one cleans up after oneself). I have eaten publicly in many plazas in Europe over the years and been quite unaware of my rudeness.

 

[TravellingMan22]

To be fair, I would not know that it is against the general rules of politeness to picnic in a public square in Europe (assuming one cleans up after oneself). I have eaten publicly in many plazas in Europe over the years and been quite unaware of my rudeness.

Yes me too! It’s not always obvious. For example there are many places in Australia you cannot drink alcohol… parks, some beaches, which I was quite unaware of and very different to most places in Europe, where it’s considered to be fairly normal.