Its NOT a 'real' Camino experience if . . .

[Melensdad]

I've been reading some threads here and it seems like some folks suggest that:

Its not a real Camino if you stay in small hotels instead of the group sleeping of the albergues...
Its not a real Camino if you ride a bike...
Its not a real Camino if you walk with a tour group...
Its not a real Camino if you book your nightly accomidations ahead of time along the route...
Etc...

Now I'll point out quickly that many suggest that these folks need to get off their high horses and stop judging others.

So for those who feel that the pilgram's way is one of wandering hardship to be endured as the early pilgrams did without the benefit of knowing where they will sleep tonight, etc. Then I have to ask, do you folks use modern backpacks with the ventilated back panels and internal frame suspension systems? Do you recommend modern boots with Gore-Tex waterproof/breathable design?

I would gladly walk the Camino and sleep in an albergues, but my wife will not walk with me if we don't stay in a private room, and she would prefer a small hotel. She would prefer a tour group, but is willing to walk without one. Etc.

So why are a few here so judgemental of others because they choose a different way?

 

[Travellingman]

By all means read a few more threads on here to discover that people have a different opinion about practically everything, from clothing to using poles to places to stay to whatever. For instance, you think some are judgemental - well, that's just your opinion, shared, or not, by others.
I get the impression that because your own (possible) camino is not working out as you might wish, you feel like blasting off at others.......that is, of course, just my opinion.....

 

[Melensdad]

By all means read a few more threads on here to discover that people have a different opinion about practically everything, from clothing to using poles to places to stay to whatever. For instance, you think some are judgemental - well, that's just your opinion, shared, or not, by others.
I get the impression that because your own (possible) camino is not working out as you might wish, you feel like blasting off at others.......that is, of course, just my opinion.....

So far my Camino planning is working out just fine. And I have read dozens and dozens of threads, start to finish. I'm happy to walk it and stay in small hotels or stay in albergues, so that makes no difference to me, just to my wife. And I am not blasting off at anyone, just wondering about some of the folks here so seem to be so critical of others who choose to do it a different way. As I noted in my original post that many posters here quickly set straight those who judge others. So overall there seems to be overwhelming support by the majority to help anyone and everyone achieve their walk in whatever way they choose.

 

[Former member 22438]

I've been reading some threads here and it seems like some folks suggest that:

Its not a real Camino if you stay in small hotels instead of the group sleeping of the albergues...
Its not a real Camino if you ride a bike...
Its not a real Camino if you walk with a tour group...
Its not a real Camino if you book your nightly accomidations ahead of time along the route...
Etc...

Now I'll point out quickly that many suggest that these folks need to get off their high horses and stop judging others.

So for those who feel that the pilgram's way is one of wandering hardship to be endured as the early pilgrams did without the benefit of knowing where they will sleep tonight, etc. Then I have to ask, do you folks use modern backpacks with the ventilated back panels and internal frame suspension systems? Do you recommend modern boots with Gore-Tex waterproof/breathable design?

I would gladly walk the Camino and sleep in an albergues, but my wife will not walk with me if we don't stay in a private room, and she would prefer a small hotel. She would prefer a tour group, but is willing to walk without one. Etc.

So why are a few here so judgemental of others because they choose a different way?

So stay in small hotels, residentials,hostals which you book ahead, with your tour group, ride your bike . It is your camino, get your Compostela at the end and enjoy every minute of it. Who is a real pilgrim ? Let them who condemn your way of coping look into the mirror. ....If you point with one finger to somebody else, you point with three fingers to yourself.
Enjoy your caminho and take your wife with you
Have a good time !

 

[introspective]

Melensdad, you've got this. It's your Camino, and you can even shake off that concern about what others think. Just because we're potential or experienced Camino walkers doesn't mean we all have humility, grace, and compassion for others whose stories and conditions we don't know. Your own evidence of your own Camino is way better than someone else's speculation about what your Camino is (will be) or should be. Ultrea!

 

[naplesdon]

Your thinking is in line with the majority of most "real" pilgrims. Enjoy the Camino your way!

 

[Mark Lee]

I've been shopping around for a sack-cloth hair-shirt to wear on my next Camino just so everybody will look upon me as a real pilgrim. Maybe some leather sandals and a real gourd on a stick for water. I do have to draw the line on beating myself across the back with a whip, though.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

It is easy to be too defensive.

What others think is not very important.

 

[Melensdad]

I've been shopping around for a sack-cloth hair-shirt to wear on my next Camino just so everybody will look upon me as a real pilgrim. Maybe some leather sandals and a real gourd on a stick for water. I do have to draw the line on beating myself across the back with a whip, though.

EXACTLY

And while 98.976% of the folks here seem supportive of everyone and every way of achieving their own Camino, there seems to be a small group who, I suspect, do hold their choices up as the right choices for all.

 

[naplesdon]

Join the 1%, my friend.

 

[Saramago]

I'm not sure what the point of starting a thread to reach the majority over a gripe with the "few" is. It seems pointless. Have a wonderful Camino ! Pat

 

[LoneStar]

There is a saying on the Appalachian Trail, "Hike your own hike." The AT and the Camino have at least one similarity, one size does not fit all.

 

[simply B]

@Melensdad -

It would be a really good idea to learn to ignore this particular issue - and as soon as possible. You will encounter the attitude often enough on the Camino itself.

I do not remember all of them but here's just three of the "true pilgrim" qualifiers I heard in 2012 between CdS and Muxia. (in no particular order)

"To be a true pilgrim, you must..."

1. Walk all the way to Finisterre, swim in the ocean, burn your clothes on the beach, throw your "carried" scallop shell into the ocean then find the biggest and most perfect scallop shell on the beach to replace it.

2. Walk at least 40 km on the last day into Santiago so as to be completely exhausted when arriving at the Cathedral.

3. Upon arrival at the Cathedral, one must crawl on their knees, from outside the doors up to the main altar.

So, let go while you can. You will run into this again.

B

 

[Melensdad]

@Melensdad -

It would be a really good idea to learn to ignore this particular issue - and as soon as possible. You will encounter the attitude often enough on the Camino itself.

I do not remember all of them but here's just three of the "true pilgrim" qualifiers I heard in 2012 between CdS and Muxia. (in no particular order)

"To be a true pilgrim, you must..."

1. Walk all the way to Finisterre, swim in the ocean, burn your clothes on the beach, throw your "carried" scallop shell into the ocean then find the biggest and most perfect scallop shell on the beach to replace it.

2. Walk at least 40 km on the last day into Santiago so as to be completely exhausted when arriving at the Cathedral.

3. Upon arrival at the Cathedral, one must crawl on their knees, from outside the doors up to the main altar.

So, let go while you can. You will run into this again.

B

Thank you. Seems like sage advice.

 

[Former member 42123]

I've been reading some threads here and it seems like some folks suggest that:

Its not a real Camino if you stay in small hotels instead of the group sleeping of the albergues...
Its not a real Camino if you ride a bike...
Its not a real Camino if you walk with a tour group...
Its not a real Camino if you book your nightly accomidations ahead of time along the route...
Etc...

Now I'll point out quickly that many suggest that these folks need to get off their high horses and stop judging others.

So for those who feel that the pilgram's way is one of wandering hardship to be endured as the early pilgrams did without the benefit of knowing where they will sleep tonight, etc. Then I have to ask, do you folks use modern backpacks with the ventilated back panels and internal frame suspension systems? Do you recommend modern boots with Gore-Tex waterproof/breathable design?

I would gladly walk the Camino and sleep in an albergues, but my wife will not walk with me if we don't stay in a private room, and she would prefer a small hotel. She would prefer a tour group, but is willing to walk without one. Etc.

So why are a few here so judgemental of others because they choose a different way?

I love reading posts in this forum,but when pilgrims are critical of pilgrims I'm just sad.

 

[jeffnd]

I've been reading some threads here and it seems like some folks suggest that:

Its not a real Camino if you stay in small hotels instead of the group sleeping of the albergues...
Its not a real Camino if you ride a bike...
Its not a real Camino if you walk with a tour group...
Its not a real Camino if you book your nightly accomidations ahead of time along the route...
Etc...

Ah, come on! At least ONCE you should stay in a noisy, sticky, albergue and get a horrible night sleep, just so you can appreciate your hotel the next day!

Riding a bike. If you are a rider who sticks to the asphalt... well good for you. But if you are one of those brave souls who take the walking path... my hat's off to you! I was always happy to let a biker pass by on the trail. That is tough going, my friend!

I would not do well in a tour group. I take too many smoke and cerveza breaks!

If had tried to book accommodations, it would have been a disaster. My distances were never the same from day to day. Half the days I was done by early afternoon. The other half, around 5pm, I would think, "I got at least 15 more kilometers in me! I'm not stopping now!"

@Melensdad -
"To be a true pilgrim, you must..."

1. Walk all the way to Finisterre, swim in the ocean, burn your clothes on the beach, throw your "carried" scallop shell into the ocean then find the biggest and most perfect scallop shell on the beach to replace it.

2. Walk at least 40 km on the last day into Santiago so as to be completely exhausted when arriving at the Cathedral.

3. Upon arrival at the Cathedral, one must crawl on their knees, from outside the doors up to the main altar.

1. I had intended to walk to Finisterre, grab a beer, wade out knee deep in the ocean, regardless of how cold the water was, and listen to a particular song while I enjoyed my beer. When I got to Santiago though, I decided not to go. I was running short on time. I could have made it if I really pushed myself, but I didn't want to risk missing my flight home. Plus, I was sort of sick of walking at that point. I felt like that Camino was over. Not going to the ocean hasn't bothered me at all.

Had I made it Finisterre though, I would not have been able to throw my shell in the ocean. I gave it to a friend on the last week of the Camino. I got my shell from the pilgrim's office donation box in St. Jean. I had heard somewhere it's better to be given a shell than to buy one, so I decided to give mine to my dear friend who didn't have a scallop.

I would not have burned my clothes either! I still wear everything I wore on the Camino, there's a lot of life left in them!

2. I started my last day in O Pedrouzo. I was plenty warn out from the walk by the time I got to the Cathedral! The day started out with a thunderstorm, then the sun came out and it made everything humid and hot, plus my walking companion wanted to reach Santiago at a certain time to meet up with a friend so we rushed most of the way. Yeah, I didn't need any more kilometers that day!

3. This was impossible since those doors were closed due to the renovations!

 

[Mark Lee]

I love reading posts in this forum,but when pilgrims are critical of pilgrims I'm just sad.

I think it can be funny to read at times. I figure it's just people being people.

 

[CaptBuddy]

Melensdad, here is my warning, from my personal experience on 2 Caminos;
book your hotel rooms early in the day or the night before, because they fill up fast with pilgrims.
My point is, there are many, many folks who agree with your wife, and you will enjoy their company.
What is in your heart makes you a pilgrim, not where you sleep.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Any pilgrim experience is a real pilgrim experience.
Go walk your own Camino and have fun!

 

[Melensdad]

I love reading posts in this forum,but when pilgrims are critical of pilgrims I'm just sad.

I think this sums up, very nicely, the reason I posted this thread.

There is so much positive and wonderful fellowship that is shared here, by so many, so often, only to have the rare few pull out a pin and burst the balloon.

Now I will be turning off my computer for a bit, I've got to get back to knitting my hair shirt

 

[vgen5122]

Your Camino is your Camino alone. I am not going to address if it was more or less than mine. I believe the question should be to yourself alone. Did you get the experience you wanted, or did you have the best experience you personally could have under your circumstances? If the answer is yes, then who is to judge?
I believe that I am a pilgrim of today's world. My backpack cost me $50 and my shoes $35...my husband wore his work boots which turned out to work perfectly fine. I did stay at a hotel maybe once, but mostly at private pensions. I saw the tour buses and the lunch snacks. I saw them every time I was tired and hungry. Maybe this is why everybody is so opinionated about them. My point is the Camino is just that. It is the road you travel and what you make of it. It is connection with people, or not sometimes. The Camino can be a search for spiritually, an examination of ones life, a turning point and sometimes it is a bike ride or just a hike. The bottom line is that the Camino is your own journey. It is no less and no more than mine. Buen Camino.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

So far my Camino planning is working out just fine. And I have read dozens and dozens of threads, start to finish. I'm happy to walk it and stay in small hotels or stay in albergues, so that makes no difference to me, just to my wife. And I am not blasting off at anyone, just wondering about some of the folks here so seem to be so critical of others who choose to do it a different way. As I noted in my original post that many posters here quickly set straight those who judge others. So overall there seems to be overwhelming support by the majority to help anyone and everyone achieve their walk in whatever way they choose.

Hy, what others think is not important. It is your Camino. Wish you a great experience and a Buen Camino, Peter.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

@Melensdad - "To be a true pilgrim, you must..."

Very funny. Reminded me of the large sign on the church in Santo Domingo in 2009 explaining how to earn your "Jubileo". Can't say the Church was not clear aobut the requirements ;0)

 

[musicman]

I can go anyway, way I choose
I can live anyhow, win or lose
I can go anywhere, for something new
Anyway, anyhow, anywhere I choose

I can do anything, right or wrong
I can talk anyhow, and get along
Don't care anyway, I never lose
Anyway, anyhow, anywhere I choose

Nothing gets in my way
Not even locked doors
Don't follow the lines
That been laid before
I get along anyway I dare
Anyway, anyhow, anywhere

I can go anyway, way I choose
I can live anyhow, win or lose
I can go anywhere, for something new
Anyway, anyhow, anywhere I choose

Anyway
Anyway I choose, yeah
Anyway I wanna go, I wanna go 'n do it myself,
Do it myself
Do it myself, yeah
Anyway, way I choose
Anyway I choose
Yeah, yeah
Ain't never gonna lose the way I choose
The way I choose
The way I choose

Thanks to The Who!

 

[rometimed]

Personally i'm all about trying to experience as much as possible so I'll probably stay in albergues AND some hotels AND I am bringing a tent to camp out a handful of nights at campsites or wherever.

Not sure if i'd like a tour group ON the Camino... but in the big cities maybe i'll try one or two along the way.

I don't fault people that like structure or those that just want to wing-it. No right or wrong just people who want different experiences.

 

[neverlost4good]

I agree.

After my injury with plantar fac. wasn't healing, and many began to tell me I couldn't do the Camino, my husband reminded me that I was called to go. He has to stay home, but he was kind in telling me to do what I needed to do (send pack ahead, get a donkey, walk a smaller portion....). I realized that each of us is called to be present on the path. The Camino for me, is a calling to be set apart from this frantic world, to meet others who are seeking, and to watch the path unfold. Introspection---

 

[xin loi]

It's the difference between being a "Veteran" and being a "Combat Veteran". We originally were only going to walk the last 100 kilometers and were so glad we changed our minds and started in SJPDP. And the people staying in albergues and carrying their own packs were a different breed than those staying in hotels and putting their packs in taxis as we walked with both types frequently.

Do it whichever way you wish, but at the next election for a Pope, I'm going to be waving my Compostella to get more Cardinals to vote for me.

 

[dougfitz]

I do have to draw the line on beating myself across the back with a whip, though.

I suppose carrying a heavier pack doesn't have the same visual effect

 

[Kitsambler]

... there seems to be a small group who... do hold their choices up as the right choices for all.

This phenomenon is not limited to Camino discussions, by any means. Just open any newspaper ...

 

[Len Dacombe]

Just listen to what the Lord is saying to you on "The Way". He knows what you need to hear.

Other people's opinions are really just noise!!

 

[Bogong]

Boy, have you let the side down, Mark!

You're supposed to weave and sew the hair shirt yourself, using only a thorn needle. While you sit shivering in your hovel dodging the rain drops coming through the leaks in the roof. And all by the light of a flickering candle you made from fat retrieved from the bunny you slingshotted the day before.

An atheist friend of mine said rather sardonically that it would only be a pilgrimage if I did the whole haul from St Jean P de P on my knees!

But seriously, over the last 1200 years or so pilgrims of all sorts and persuasions and levels of wealth would have done it in all sorts of ways. If Alfonso 11 was the first on the Camino Primitivo he probably did it on horseback, but maybe they carried him in a sedan chair. Some would have slummed it, but betcha if there had been an oxcart going their way they would have cadged a lift. Some of the Dons would have done it in the lap of luxury!

De Colores!

Bogong

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

I've been reading some threads here and it seems like some folks suggest that:

Its not a real Camino if you stay in small hotels instead of the group sleeping of the albergues..

So why are a few here so judgemental of others because they choose a different way?

It gets worse on the Camino, especially when you are not carrying a backpack and heading to the nearest Parador

 

[xin loi]

Not sure how to say it in a nice way...but leave your wife at home. I walked the Camino with my Novia last May and June and it was nerve wracking. She wants to constantly stop to look at churches , etc. while I want to see what is on top of the next hill. Unlike the couple we met who eventually had one person in finnisterre and the other still walking near Burgoes, we could just not split up. My novia has no since of direction and actually got lost in the Burgoes Church. I sat outside with our packs for two hours while she wandered around the church.

Read the book, "What the Psychic told the Pilgrim"--great book about the horrors of sharing the Camino

 

[C clearly]

So why are a few here so judgemental of others because they choose a different way?

I don't understand the point of this thread. It is clear that most of us are quite tolerant of differences, and that this topic is frequently raised. We all know that some people are not happy, confident, tolerant, nice, kind, etc. And all of us are not so 100% of the time!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I don't understand the point of this thread.

...and it has been done to death

I must say, though, it has gone the longest on the subject without getting locked! We must be getting better behaved.

 

[hunsta]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ooops sorry. I dozed off for a sec there.

 

[smj6]

De Colores!

Are you a Cursillista, Bogong?
De Colores, Suzanne

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Often I am accused of judging others' caminos.
Example:Someone puts the question out there: "How many Gigs of HVRT3 will I need to maintain my R2x5 capacity in an albergue, and keep my 5k blog/tweet followers satisfied? And how much free security is provided for my stuff while I am out sightseeing?
When I tell them my opinion (don't bring anything you can't afford to lose/elaborate electronics just tie you to all the stuff you are walking to escape) I am accused of "judging" or "dictating" or being on a high horse.
Kinda like a smoker when his kids tell him it's deadly. Or a drinker when the bartender tells him to slow down. The really addicted have all kinds of reasons why their habit is healthy, OK, perfectly harmless, utterly essential. and nobody's business but his.
So be it. This is a forum. You ask a question, you might get an answer you don't like.

 

[Tia Valeria]

Not sure how to say it in a nice way...but leave your wife at home. I walked the Camino with my Novia last May and June and it was nerve wracking. She wants to constantly stop to look at churches , etc. while I want to see what is on top of the next hill. Unlike the couple we met who eventually had one person in finnisterre and the other still walking near Burgoes, we could just not split up. My novia has no since of direction and actually got lost in the Burgoes Church. I sat outside with our packs for two hours while she wandered around the church.

Read the book, "What the Psychic told the Pilgrim"--great book about the horrors of sharing the Camino

Maybe you needed to read the Walking with a Companion thread.....
We walk quite happily as a couple as do many others, even with differing needs etc

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I think Xin Loi's novia should leave him at home. Sounds like she knows how to really dig in and enjoy a place...he sits outside and complains about wives and their sense of direction. Who's the pilgrim?

 

[Jellycat]

Reading these posts just makes me think of that old phrase '

“YOU CAN’T REALLY UNDERSTAND ANOTHER PERSON’S EXPERIENCE UNTIL YOU’VE WALKED A MILE IN THEIR SHOES”

It is so easy to form opinions of others without knowing anything about them - we're all guilty of it sometimes, whether you're a 'true pilgrim' looking down on those who seem to be taking the easy option or people in forums commenting on those who are seen to be judging others (no difference when you think about it).

It's one of the reasons I loved my first Camino and have chosen to do it again - I change so much from day 1 to day 40. I start off getting easily irritated with people making noise late at night or at the crack of dawn, I curse the snorers, I wonder why the person walking next to me for the last two hours talking incessantly despite my complete silence doesn't get the hint that I want to be on my own... etc. And then as each day passes I become more tolerant, start to see the person behind the 'irritating habits', uncover the reasons behind why some people are having their bags carried or staying in hotels, maybe treat myself for the odd night as well when I need a long hot bath and good night's sleep, and even learn to understand why and forgive myself for occasionally judging others.

It's all relative, we're all there for different reasons, we all have our own path to take and if you spend enough time with anyone you find something about them that you really like.

That's what I think anyway )

 

[Jellycat]

PS I have no idea why my post appeared in huge text and shouty capitals - please don;t judge me, it was unintentional!

 

[wayfarer]

PS I have no idea why my post appeared in huge text and shouty capitals - please don;t judge me, it was unintentional!

Sorted.

 

[Walter1407]

A pilgrimage is a journey, especially a long one, of moral or spiritual significance. In the Middle Ages, theologians endorsed spiritual travel as a retreat from worldly concerns. They equated pilgrimage with the monastic way of life.

This quote is something like my term of reference. During a pilgrimage, I seek contemplation and meditation. I cannot do this when I am sitting at a desk or when I am frying at a beach. When I am walking (or running, for that matter) the world of thoughts changes. When I walk for a long time things develop which otherwise would not. Important is the mentioned "retreat from worldly concerns".
I have walked and cycled the Camino, both times long distance. Though it was a good experience, I would not really call my cycling journey a pilgrimage, as while I was on the move I had to focus on either traffic or potholes. Not much contemplation possible this way.
Of course I don't walk like they did in the Middle Ages. I put on underwear, my feet are not trained to do the walk in sandals, and I don't sleep on the floor but on matresses. I occasionally communicate with home, but keep it to an absolute minimum.
What I would never do is take a smart phone with me AND keep it on while I am walking. I don't much care what others do, as long as they don't interfere with what I am doing. Beeping phones and people who want to discuss the current developments at the stock exchange are examples of such interferences. I just stay away from them.

 

[Walter1407]

Someone put the question out there: "How many Gigs of HVRT3 will I need to maintain my R2x5 capacity in an albergue, and keep my 5k blog/tweet followers satisfied? And how much free security is provided for my stuff while I am out sightseeing?"
When I tell them my opinion (don't bring anything you can't afford to lose/elaborate electronics just tie you to all the stuff you are walking to escape) I am accused of "judging" or "dictating" or being on a high horse.

If I got too bothered about the many who do things that in my view are contrary to what a pilgrimage is about, I would be ruining my own.
I think it's best to let tech nerds remain tech nerds, and to stay away from them. Unfortunately, this is easier when I don't stay at albergues.

 

[koknesis]

So why are a few here so judgemental of others because they choose a different way?

well, well, .... everyone has own purpose. i always try to persuade myself to follow Luke 6:37... regarding the lemons which someone on this forum will try to serve you, just add some tequila and enjoy a great Margarita

 

[newfydog]

You're supposed to weave and sew the hair shirt yourself, using only a thorn needle. While you sit shivering in your hovel dodging the rain drops coming through the leaks in the roof. And all by the light of a flickering candle you made from fat retrieved from the bunny you slingshotted the day before.

An atheist friend of mine said rather sardonically that it would only be a pilgrimage if I did the whole haul from St Jean P de P on my knees!

But seriously, over the last 1200 years or so pilgrims of all sorts and persuasions and levels of wealth would have done it in all sorts of ways. If Alfonso 11 was the first on the Camino Primitivo he probably did it on horseback, but maybe they carried him in a sedan chair. Some would have slummed it, but betcha if there had been an oxcart going their way they would have cadged a lift. Some of the Dons would have done it in the lap of luxury!

+1 ......It puzzles me that so many are under the impression that a traditional pilgrim sought hardship. In all the reading I've done on the medieval pilgrims, they travelled in the best style they could afford.

There were many on the trail for penance, but in most cases they were sentenced to that penance and wanted to get the trip over and done with as easily as possible. Some simply bought a Compostela and after hanging out for the proper length of time, presented it to the authorities and were free.

Knights would sometime make a pledge in battle to perform the pilgrimage if they survived When the battle was over, those who could afford to brought along their horses, ladies and general entourage, as sort of a victory trip.

The hair shirt, crawling on the knees, sleeping in pile image is popular these days, but I ask you to check out the Parador in Santiago. It was built as pilgrim accommodation, and those who could afford it stayed there without remorse.

 

[Walter1407]

There were many on the trail for penance, but in most cases they were sentenced to that penance and wanted to get the trip over and done with as easily as possible. Some simply bought a Compostela and after hanging out for the proper length of time, presented it to the authorities and were free. .....
The hair shirt, crawling on the knees, sleeping in pile image is popular these days, but I ask you to check out the Parador in Santiago. It was built as pilgrim accommodation, and those who could afford it stayed there without remorse.

If I remember my reading of a few years ago correctly, penance was how it all started, but it then became a trip of a life-time for many devout Christians. Many of them ended up in what is now the Parador, as it was then the "Hospital dos Reis Católicos".

 

[newfydog]

If I remember my reading of a few years ago correctly, penance was how it all started, but it then became a trip of a life-time for many devout Christians. Many of them ended up in what is now the Parador, as it was then the "Hospital dos Reis Católicos".

The pilgrimage was more or less initiated by the Bishop of LePuy, Godescalc in 951. He did his best to publicize the trip. which he made, not out of penance, but to pay respect to St James. He travelled in a manner fitting a Bishop. The Catholic church was in need of an influx of Christians to Western Spain to help displace the Moors, and promoted it in every which way, be it devout worship, adventure, or penance.

The Hospital dos Reis Católicos was built in 1486 by Queen Isabel and Ferdinand. They had just completed their own pilgrimage, I'm sure done in good style with minimal suffering, and decided the facilities along the way needed upgrading.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The Hospital dos Reis Católicos was built in 1486 by Queen Isabel and Ferdinand. They had just completed their own pilgrimage, I'm sure done in good style with minimal suffering, and decided the facilities along the way needed upgrading.

Sorry to contradict you, but this building was only given it's luxurious apparence in the 1900s. Prior to that it was a hospital, first created after the monarchs witness the miserable state of the devout pilgrims when they arrived in Santiago. It also became the city's hospital. Here is an interesting article on this history. Interestingly enough, it also addresses the botafumeiro, saying that its roots go back to when the previous city hospital, that was between the parados and San Martin Pinario burned to the ground, and the sick were moved into the cathedral to receive care.

And let's not forget all the prisoners who walked to Santiago. The fact that a few of the privilege classes may have travelled in "style" - what ever that meant back in the past - certainly not the comfort of today, doesn't mean the vast majority of devout pilgrims aslo did. If all who walked to Santiago did so in style, there would only have been a handful of them, hardly enough to build bridges, hospitals and cities along the way.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/07/24/galicia/1279990426.html

Here is a second article, this one has the transcript from the letter sent my the monarchs giving orders for the hospital to be built, and the reasons why:

"“Por cuanto nos somos informados e certificados que en la dicha cibdad de Santiago donde concurren muchos peregrinos e pobres de muchas naciones a visitar el bienaventurado señor Santiago Apóstol e Patrón de nuestras Españas ay mucha necesidad de un ospital donde se acojan los pobres peregrinos e enfermos que allí vinieren en romería e por falta del hedificio han perecido e perecen muchos pobres enfermos e peregrinos por los suelos de dicha yglesia e otras partes por no tener donde se acojer a quien los reciba e aposente… mandamos por ello facer un ospital a nuestras costas el qual entendemos dotar de nuestras propias rentas”.

http://viajar.especiales.elperiodico.com/paradores-museo/parador-de-santiago/

 

[newfydog]

Where on earth did I say most pilgrims were upper class? Certainly, most medieval pilgrims were poor and travelled accordingly, but my point is that very few purposely made the trip less comfortable than their means would allow. There seems to be a concept that one should suffer to make it a true pilgrimage, and while traditionally suffering was a fact, for most it was not a goal. Hair shirts and self flagellation were not the norm.

 

[longwalker]

I've been reading some threads here and it seems like some folks suggest that:

Its not a real Camino if you stay in small hotels instead of the group sleeping of the albergues...
Its not a real Camino if you ride a bike...
Its not a real Camino if you walk with a tour group...
Its not a real Camino if you book your nightly accomidations ahead of time along the route...
Etc...

Now I'll point out quickly that many suggest that these folks need to get off their high horses and stop judging others.

So for those who feel that the pilgram's way is one of wandering hardship to be endured as the early pilgrams did without the benefit of knowing where they will sleep tonight, etc. Then I have to ask, do you folks use modern backpacks with the ventilated back panels and internal frame suspension systems? Do you recommend modern boots with Gore-Tex waterproof/breathable design?

I would gladly walk the Camino and sleep in an albergues, but my wife will not walk with me if we don't stay in a private room, and she would prefer a small hotel. She would prefer a tour group, but is willing to walk without one. Etc.

So why are a few here so judgemental of others because they choose a different way?

Its not a real Camino experience if you don't go.

 

[dariosilva]

Its not a real Camino if you don't do one...
Its not a real Camino if you don't buy $100 worth of trinkets in SDC to take home to family and friends...
Its not a real Camino if you don't at least taste a Spanish Torta on the Frances...
Its not a real Camino if at one point or another you don't ask your self something like, "Now why am I doing this?"
etc...

 

[Annie G]

If I remember my reading of a few years ago correctly, penance was how it all started, but it then became a trip of a life-time for many devout Christians. Many of them ended up in what is now the Parador, as it was then the "Hospital dos Reis Católicos".

Penance is such a loaded word don't you think?

Where on earth did I say most pilgrims were upper class? Certainly, most medieval pilgrims were poor and travelled accordingly, but my point is that very few purposely made the trip less comfortable than their means would allow. There seems to be a concept that one should suffer to make it a true pilgrimage, and while traditionally suffering was a fact, for most it was not a goal. Hair shirts and self flagellation were not the norm.

Personally, I'm not into suffering anymore than I must. However, when I travel, even in my own country, I most enjoy myself when I stay away from the homogenization that in endemic to major highways and recommended destinations. I must admit that this is not a default position and I often struggle to go beyond the expected, especially now that I am retired and want (need) creature comforts. But, having backpacked 'around the world' for almost two years in my 20's, I know that the best and most memorable times were spent doing things that were way out of my comfort zone. I suspect that this is still true and something that I want to revisit when I walk the Camino.

 

[newfydog]

Sorry to contradict you, but this building was only given it's luxurious apparence in the 1900s. Prior to that it was a hospital,

.... mucha necesidad de un ospital donde se acojan los pobres peregrinos e enfermos
/

I'm sure that with your extensive knowledge of Spanish, and some familiarity with English, you realize that the ancient "ospital" does not translate directly to "hospital". I have stayed at the Hospital dos Reis Católicos, and had a historical tour (in Spanish, yes, some of us can get by in a few languages). It was definitely an upgrade over what was available at the time, and as it does today, it served all classes of people.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the most important intangible values of the route is the spirit of hospitality, according to the original meaning of the term. Margaret Markham (2005) states: The word 'hospital' derives from the Latin 'hospes', meaning a stranger, foreigner, or guest.

The original function of a hospital was to provide hospitality and shelter for travelers of all kinds, not exclusively for the sick, but later a variety of institutions came into being to cater for the poor, the aged and the sick which bore the name 'hospital'.


That spirit is still alive in the Route of Santiago. Medieval hospitals have been replaced by hostels, some of them located in the same houses used since the Middle Ages. Teams of volunteers attend to pilgrims giving them a place to rest and some commodities. Those volunteers feel that the WHS is THEIR heritage.

 

[p.saffrie]

No one can give you a bad feeling without aprovel of yourself.

 

[AJ]

It's not a real camino experience if you don't know what you are doing nor why.

 

[Annie G]

It's not a real camino experience if you don't know what you are doing nor why.

Hmmmm. From all I have read both on this forum and in many of the memoir books, most peregrinos haven't a clue why they are walking the Camino and even if they say that they do when they begin, they realize they were wrong about that somewhere along the Way. This shouldn't be too surprising. Most of us have no idea why we really do what we do. Of course, I'm a Determinist and do not believe in free will.

 

[Saint Mike II]

I've been shopping around for a sack-cloth hair-shirt to wear on my next Camino just so everybody will look upon me as a real pilgrim. Maybe some leather sandals and a real gourd on a stick for water. I do have to draw the line on beating myself across the back with a whip, though.

"Leather sandals"?? No this is too up market, they should be made of hessian rope or vines. Some might even suggest going barefooted. Oh and if you need head cover it should be plated leaves!!! Thus when you get to Finisteir Cape and burn your pilgrims rags they will not pollute!!!

 

[Annie G]

"Leather sandals"?? No this is too up market, they should be made of hessian rope or vines. Some might even suggest going barefooted. Oh and if you need head cover it should be plated leaves!!! Thus when you get to Finisteir Cape and burn your pilgrims rags they will not pollute!!!

I was planning on burning my bras BEFORE I begin the Camino. That way, I don't have to wash it every night.

 

[MikeSass]

If I got too bothered about the many who do things that in my view are contrary to what a pilgrimage is about, I would be ruining my own.
I think it's best to let tech nerds remain tech nerds, and to stay away from them. Unfortunately, this is easier when I don't stay at albergues.

Where do you stay?

 

[Len Dacombe]

If I got too bothered about the many who do things that in my view are contrary to what a pilgrimage is about, I would be ruining my own.
I think it's best to let tech nerds remain tech nerds, and to stay away from them. Unfortunately, this is easier when I don't stay at albergues.

Well Walter... The purpose of my Camino is to spend as much time as possible communing with God by spending time meditating on His Word. My NIV Study Bible just happens to be on my iPhone which is significantly lighter than the actual book. So if you see me staring at my phone, please don't assume I'm a techie that can't give up his technology. I am a techie, but I rule the technology, it doesn't rule me. :>)

 

[SYates]

I had the Daily Office download on my tablet and used it - different churchwomanship, same approach! Buen Camino, SY

 

[Arn]

I've been shopping around for a sack-cloth hair-shirt to wear on my next Camino just so everybody will look upon me as a real pilgrim. Maybe some leather sandals and a real gourd on a stick for water. I do have to draw the line on beating myself across the back with a whip, though.

Mark...I found you!
Well, actually I'm not sure it's you for all the ashes

 

[Arn]

I was planning on burning my bras BEFORE I begin the Camino. That way, I don't have to wash it every night.

Wait...don't burn them. Cut them in half and hand them out to kids. We all know kids like Beanies with chin straps

 

[Arn]

On a more realistic note:
A thread on this topic is about as incendiary as it gets. That said, most fires will burn themselves out.
And since us "real pilgrims" are also professionals (if in our own mind). I am reminded of something my dad once said, "Arn, you are going to meet some very smart people in the world. Some will agree with you and some not. The key IS never take criticism personally. Take it professionally. That way your feelings won't get hurt and, more importantly, you may learn something."

 

[SYates]

Arn, you are on a roll, ARN't you? SY

 

[mikevasey]

Its NOT a 'real' Camino experience if.......someone doesn't feel the need to make a statement about people who make statements on who is a pilgrim or not. That's my statement, do I win?

 

[Mark Lee]

Mark...I found you!
Well, actually I'm not sure it's you for all the ashes

Ha! good one....

 

[Albertagirl]

I had the Daily Office download on my tablet and used it - different churchwomanship, same approach! Buen Camino, SY

SYates could you please let me know what Daily Office you used and if I could get a download for my ipad? It seems strange to be planning a pilgrimage and choosing to leave behind the weight of my Canadian Anglican BAS (book of alternative services). I usually just take a photocopied Office of Compline on my backpacking trips, but that seems a bit skimpy for a trip as lengthy as the camino. I have downloaded a King James Bible to my ipad and the wonderful poetry of that version seems to me wholly appropriate for the camino, but I don't have an office book. Thanks.

 

[SYates]

I used the Spanish version of the RC Daily Office on an Android tablet:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eprex.lo.es, so that wouldn't help you much, but I found that for you: http://www.anglican.ca/resources/liturgicaltextsonline/ or this one, it has apparently also an iPad version, https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.surgeworks.divineoffice

Hope that helps and Buen Camino! SY

 

[dougfitz]

Arn, you are on a roll ...

We really do need a <groan

> emoticon

 

[Albertagirl]

I used the Spanish version of the RC Daily Office on an Android tablet:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eprex.lo.es, so that wouldn't help you much, but I found that for you: http://www.anglican.ca/resources/liturgicaltextsonline/ or this one, it has apparently also an iPad version, https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.surgeworks.divineoffice

Hope that helps and Buen Camino! SY

Thank you so much. I have downloaded the Liturgia de las Horas and am delighted with the chance to learn the Daily Office in Spanish. It just seems appropriate for the camino. My very basic attempt at translation of today's reading from Exodus is making me laugh: "Quando Moises salia en direccion a la tienda, todo el pueblo se levantaba" - "When Moses went out towards the store, everybody in the village got up . . ." I can only assume that "tienda" means "the tabernacle." As I have a doctorate in Biblical Studies, any text from the Bible is ideal for my initial attempts at learning a language. Thanks again.

P.S.: This app seems to go automatically to the relevant office of the day, which is convenient, but I guess that means that I will not be able to get to the office of the day if I don't have wifi?

 

[SYates]

There should be a function to download the whole month in preparation for wifi-less times. Have a look around the app. I am back to paper by now and have deleted it from my tablet, so can't be of any help with that any more but I do remember that I could download the whole months at once for off line use. Buen Camino! SY

PS The simplest meaning of tienda is tent

 

[Kanga]

It's not a real camino if you don't get soaked a few times.
It's not a real camino if you don't get blisters.
It's not a real Camino if you don't mutter, at least once a day "why am I doing this".
It's not a real Camino if you don't eat patatas fritos with everything.
It's not a real Camino if you have more than two pairs of underpants.
It's not a real Camino if your clothes don't fall off by the end.

 

[domigee]

Love it, Kanga!

 

[dougfitz]

It's not a real Camino if you have more than two pairs of underpants.

Harsh, @Kanga, harsh!

 

[bystander]

The never/ending thread or rather - the impossible to end thread........,

........being judgemental of the judgemental!??

 

[domigee]

I've even forgotten which thread we're in

Love your quote, btw, Bystander!

 

[Arn]

Being judgmental is, in my judgement...a mental condition

 

[simply B]

I had to log in to check on a PM and find this thread STILL going strong.

IMHO, this indicates that a lot of people could be judged "mental".

But, at least everybody is playing nice in the sandbox this time.

B

 

[malingerer]

It's not a real camino experience if you don't know what you are doing nor why.

but then u have a damn good excuse for going back to find out which is what i have been doing since 2004! and im still not sure! the malingerer.

 

[ManyMiles2Go]

It's not a real camino if you don't get soaked a few times.
It's not a real camino if you don't get blisters.
It's not a real Camino if you don't mutter, at least once a day "why am I doing this".
It's not a real Camino if you don't eat patatas fritos with everything.
It's not a real Camino if you have more than two pairs of underpants.
It's not a real Camino if your clothes don't fall off by the end.

Dang, I thought I was going to be a real pilgrim until I got to the last one I still have the clothes I used on the Camino.

 

[malingerer]

I've been shopping around for a sack-cloth hair-shirt to wear on my next Camino just so everybody will look upon me as a real pilgrim. Maybe some leather sandals and a real gourd on a stick for water. I do have to draw the line on beating myself across the back with a whip, though.

sack cloth is so yesterday! just try some CHEAP merino and boy will ya repent!
the malingerer!

 

[Arn]

Dang, I thought I was going to be a real pilgrim until I got to the last one I still have the clothes I used on the Camino.

Yes, and I'll bet you had your own row on the aircraft home

On a more serious note and in keeping with the flavor of this thread:

I've gone back over some of the earlier threads (2007)and replies that have garnered caustic and, or downright hurtful responses from/between fellow pilgrims.

I am pleased to share my findings with the Forum.

We have had some VERY vociferous exchanges by and between some of our members. This resulted in the hurt departing the Forum, the antagonist either banned or encouraged, strongly, to mend their ways. In some cases, the banned individual returned to the Forum under an assumed name, or established an alter-ego.

Modern technology is great!

It's not difficult to reveal the "new" member is entering comments from the same PC, or location.

Now, the good news!!!

Several of the previously "banned" individuals are back and, I'm happy to say, have embraced the "inclusive" nature of the Forum and tempered/self censored themselves to the betterment of all.
Others, when harboring a strong opinion on a given thread...now engage the individual via PM. Often this tact leads to the two (or more) individuals realizing their heretofore position(s) were not that far afield once civil discourse is injected into the conversation.
When I first became a Mod, I remember a long discussion among the staff as to what actions/activities could rise to the level of dropping the banned hammer. Some of the areas were: personal attacks, invectives, open solicitation for any number of activities, etc.

I was of the opinion that the majority of Forum members are thoughtful, highly socialized, well traveled and self assured enough to recognize when a Thread is going south and it needs to be reined in, or blocked. Thus, without more than a nudge from another member, or a Mod...the spark is extinguished long before a fully engulfed fire storm breaks out.
IMHO, this is why this particular thread came into being on a topic that veteran members know has been repeated every so often; almost always by a new member.
This is not a slam on melensdad, but rather a kudo for providing a vehicle where the members of the Forum can display all the positive traits Ivar's genius for starting the Forum engenders.
We are indeed inclusive, mostly nonjudgemental and, far and away, the place; "Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn"

 

[C clearly]

Very interesting perspective. I agree that the vast majority of people can and do try to self correct when we find ourselves in a bit of potential "trouble." And it is inevitable for any member who really engages in the forum. I'm glad to learn that some banned members do return with success.

Thanks to moderators and members!

 

[Deleted member 22638]

I've gone back over some of the earlier threads (2007)and replies that have garnered caustic and, or downright hurtful responses from/between fellow pilgrims.

I must admit when I read the first post - I said to myself , "put down the shovel and resist the urge to post" I think I expected it to be moderated to a prompt close after about 8/ 10 posts. I think we have made it close to 90 at the time of writing.

unfortunately my own experience of writing something in haste has been that I can repent at leisure,

I can now recognise the first symptoms of rashness:

1) The keyboard reduces in size for fat fingers now trying to write twice as fast as normal

2) I hear John McEnroe in my ear " you cannot be serious"

Either of these symptoms now has me adopting a metaphorical lotus position to chant my mantra

 

[ManyMiles2Go]

Yes, and I'll bet you had your own row on the aircraft home

LOL, no, I actually bought a new t-shirt at Fisterra and washed my shorts The rest of my clothing was in the cargo hold of the plane where it couldn't bother anyone

 

[Dutch]

aaah, wonderfull, a judgemental thread again. And its still lasting? Impressive. Always fun to read.

There is more judgementalness (is that even a word?) on this forum then i have seen LIVE on the camino so far. I wonder why?
It is out there, but you gotta look for it. Here it comes at you from al sides if your not carefull

Who cares what others think, come on people, grow up, act your age!

Well, except for @Mark Lee not whipping himself across the back of course. I mean if your gonna dress the part, you have to go all the way, otherwise......its not a real camino

 

[grayland]

It is always important to remember that even those who appear to be "judgemental" are also entitled to their opinions.
Often, others appear judgemental because their opinion differs from your own.

 

[niagarapilgrim]

This is probably superfluous by now, but I think there's a lot to be said for combining different modes along the way. I walked the Camino Frances at age 65, and inexperienced. My companion and I had to take all available breaks along the way in order to cover the distances we'd planned. Therefore we arrived at each destination rather late in the day. The ability to reserve accommodation ahead on certain days was material to our ability to do the Camino at all. We set out with an expectation to spend every third night in private accommodation. We probably did a bit more than that. If you miss the albergues altogether, you may miss part of a "classic" pilgrim experience. But if you stay there every night, you can spend a lot of time on the way anxious about getting a bunk at all, instead of loving every step. Much depends on your budget as well. Some pilgrims rely on the albergue system completely and have no other choices. For me, the Camino was defined by walking and prayer, and not by where I stayed. I believe it is different and wonderful for each pilgrim, for reasons that are ours alone. Go for your reasons, and I trust that you and your wife will love it.

 

[grayland]

Niagarapilgrim has posted an excellent description of one of the many reasons that people use other than albergues for accommodations.
If you are of the opinion that staying in albergues is the only "classic" pilgrim experience (per NiagaraP) then you will want to apply that opinion on others.
It is interesting that many of those who argue that albergues are the only true experience often are also advocates of pack transport, buses and taxis. ..........just my opinion, of course.

Remember that those not staying in albergues are freeing up a bed for others...especially those on a budget that need the albergues system in order to afford their camino. This is an essential part of the system now that the numbers of people on the CF are often overloading the albergues.

 

[dariosilva]

It's not a real camino if you don't get soaked a few times.
It's not a real camino if you don't get blisters.
It's not a real Camino if you don't mutter, at least once a day "why am I doing this".
It's not a real Camino if you don't eat patatas fritos with everything.
It's not a real Camino if you have more than two pairs of underpants.
It's not a real Camino if your clothes don't fall off by the end.

It's not a real Camino if you don't take a selfie with the Pilgrim statue on the bench in the square in Burgos.

 

[Kanga]

It's not a real Camino if you don't take a selfie with the Pilgrim statue on the bench in the square in Burgos.

León ? Outside the Parador?

 

[AJ]

León ? Outside the Parador?

There's one in Burgos as well.

 

[mspath]

There's one in Burgos as well.

The Burgos pilgrim sculpture is seated on a bench on the south side of the cathedral in front of today's main entrance.

 

[jeffnd]

León ? Outside the Parador?

Umm...


Anyway, to be a real pilgrim, one must:
1. Take at least one, undignified tumble into those thorn bushes that line the way.
2. Get caught singing a rather embarrassing song when you thought no one was around.
3. Have at least one day when you decide to stop at the first town you come to and get nice and plastered waiting for the albergue to open.
4. Fall in love. This might be with a person, the landscape, a song, a building, etc. I fell in love with a sandwich.
5. Receive 2 contradictory pieces of advice about the proper way to adjust your pack, tie your shoes, use your walking stick, etc. You must try both ways, only to discover that neither way works.
6. Walk with people and wonder why you can't get a minute's peace.
7. Walk by yourself and wonder why you're so damn lonely.
8. Run with the bulls. If that is not possible, don't worry. You'll have plenty of chances to get chased by farm animals.
9. Petition St. James to make the cathedral give out a compostela for travelling the Camino in a luxury RV.
10. Know that deep down you'd do it all over again in a heartbeat.

 

[mlhhome]

It doesn't qualify (IMHO) if you takes notes at every opportunity for your book or screenplay.

 

[Kanga]

Yes indeed @jeffnd . Good work people.

 

[John Sikora]

I just can't tolerate intolerance any longer. If someone doesn't do it my way, they shouldn't do it at all. If they don't like my preferences they are not worthy of consideration as full human beings. Now doesn't that sound stupid. I am hiking my first Camino in Aug-Oct, taking my time and looking forward to meeting a lot of people that I would never meet if didn't walk the walk. I respect and admire those that can take a lot more difficulty and hardship than my current body and mind will allow me to successfully do. In return, I only ask that everyone respects my choices as I respect theirs, enjoy the wine, food, and life stories of my walking companions and not even think about who is better, worse, smarter, dumber, ugly, handsome, judgemental, or passive. I look forward to meeting you all on the road.