Is the Camino losing its identity

[Ianhooper]

I have just completed my second Camino. My partner and I walked the Primitivo together last September, and I started the Camino Frances in late April, was joined by my partner in Leon in May and we finished it together in June.

However, I noticed a big difference between the two Camino's in that: on the Primitivo pilgrims were walking to the albergues and knocking on the doors to ask if there were any beds available. On the Frances many "pilgrims" were pre-booking accommodation by telephone, text, email and Booking.com often for days in advance. Many of these "pilgrims" were also having their luggage shipped each day and carrying a small day sack.

I also saw bus loads of "pilgrims" being dropped of and then picked up a few kilometres further along and then taken to a restaurant for lunch. After lunch they would be taken to another drop off point and picked up again a little further along before being driven to their hotel for the evening. These were clearly able bodied tourists.

Also, the number of new albergues and guest houses springing up all over the place as entrepreneurs seek to make a quick Euro out of the pilgrims purse.

Sadly I feel strongly that within a few years the Camino will be nothing more that a long distance holiday resort where tourists can get a certificate to prove that they've spent some time in Northern Spain.

I am extremely proud of my Compostelas, I have one already framed and I shall have the second one framed. I am now busy researching the Portuguese route.

I have one more negative comment, whilst my partner and I, accompanied by a lovely German lady, laid our stones on the pile at Cruz de Ferro we were disgusted to see a group of about eight selfish, Spanish cyclists ride their mountain bikes up to the top of the stone pile as though it was an extra hazard for them to enjoy. They then posed for photos holding their bikes aloft.

Many thousands of people have carried their stones from the four corners of the earth to place on the pile, often as a token of a loved or lost one. I personally would like to see some sort of fence around the pile so as to stop this unacceptable, egotistical, self-centred behaviour in the future.

I'm sorry to sound so negative but this is how I sometimes felt during my Camino. On my walk I met lots of wonderful people from many countries and for the most part of it I had a wonderful experience. If I was forty years younger I'd have a go at doing the Frances in both directions.

Let's not lose sight of what it's all about.

Buen Camino

Ian Hooper

 

[Dave2525]

What is it all about? There are probably as many reasons for doing a camino as there are pilgrims.

Your accomplishments are not diminished because others chose a different path.

I do agree that the bikers might have shown a bit more respect.

 

[Con Palos]

Been there! bikers shattered a very moving morning at Cruz de Ferro. a group of cyclists did exactly the same stunt as a young German gentleman broke down in front of everyone and forgave his father. for what I don't know but the cycle tour moved on as people comfort the young man who had just taken a great weight off his shoulders; he too walked on last seen a lot happier for placing his little stone that meant a great deal to him.

Buen Caminio everyone

 

[SYates]

What the others have said, plus I am absolutely against fencing off the Cruz de Ferro. Buen Camino, SY

 

[domigee]

My answer is : I don't know! I shall be walking the CF next month for the third time, I'll tell you then
There were quite a few pilgrims being picked up by minibuses or large taxis on the Sanabres last year and being ferried to and fro. It didn't bother me, we all found it quite entertaining to watch. Seemed a lot more hassle than just walking, actually

 

[nellpilgrim]

It's core 'identity' has survived for well over 1000 years under all sorts of pressures so I reckon it's safe for a while yet. What changes are our own expectations and those of fellow pilgrims. The numbers of pilgrims (no matter how they travel), the tinsel and the tat, the 'crass commercialism'-that keeps Spanish people in jobs and gives back to communities under economic pressure- and yes even the blooming cyclists (we love you really ) all have as much right to be there as I do ( I know you have to hold your breath and count to 10... well ok maybe 100 sometimes).

I try to ask myself (not always successfully I admit) what do I contribute to the Camino/Chemin/Jakobsweg/Via I'm walking- how do I impact other pilgrims or the people whose towns and villages I walk through? In essence what is my defining pilgrim identity as a experienced by others?

I'm old, cranky, change resistant and hate lycra……..I guess I need to go on pilgrimage again very soon!

 

[Ianhooper]

What the others have said, plus I am absolutely against fencing off the Cruz de Ferro. Buen Camino, SY

Please don't get me wrong, I don't suggest fencing off Cruz de Ferro completely, just enough to stop these bikers, true pilgrims can then lay their stones in the confidence that they will not be abused or disrespected.

Ian

 

[Camino2010]

I would hate to see any kind of a fence or barrier around Cruz de Ferro, though I can appreciate where you're coming from. It is what it is, and some people are more respectful than others, but I haven't cycled the Camino, so how can I know what was going through the minds of the cyclists you saw (or the group I saw there in 2015 taking photos with their bicycles), or what life experiences and background brought them to that place and point in time... it's another great reminder to me though, about how I want to approach the Camino, and who I want to be as I'm there.

Thanks for the opportunity to think it through again.

Rachel

 

[SabsP]

Just did a google search for " true " and " identity ".
It keeps me busy...
I will go for a walk now and then immediately forget the sociological and philosophical things I read.

 

[Kathor1]

we were disgusted to see a group of about eight selfish, Spanish cyclists ride their mountain bikes up to the top of the stone pile as though it was an extra hazard for them to enjoy. They then posed for photos holding their bikes aloft.

Many thousands of people have carried their stones from the four corners of the earth to place on the pile, often as a token of a loved or lost one.

They may not have consumed the same modern pilgrim literature as you have. They may not be aware of the significance that you attribute to this place. They may even resent what this landmark is being turned into in recent decades. Did you ever consider any of these possibilities?

 

[Ianhooper]

I would hate to get into an argument, however, my last sentence is factually true. My stone came from my parent's grave and my partner's stone came from her parent's grave. There is also a wonderful thread from Wayfarer dated 04.11.2013 titled The Story of your stone at the Cruz de Ferro which you might find interesting

Buen Camino

Ian

 

[Kathor1]

I would hate to get into an argument, however, my last sentence is factually true.

I had already corrected my reply, I had mixed up thousands of years with thousands of people ... a mistake easily made in the context of this recurring discussion.

I am aware of the significance that is attributed to this place by many. I am still wrestling with the postulate that this has to be universally accepted and "respected". I do think that many people - users of the road - are simply not aware of it. These groups of Spanish bikers that you encounter on the road - are they pilgrims in any kind of way or people out on a ride? I assumed the later. They look just like the ones I see on the road from time to time near my home and they are certainly not on any kind of pilgrimage to Santiago.

What I am trying to say: consider the possibility that modern rituals that have developed in very recent times - I think someone used the word "postmodern" in a similar thread - are not universally known.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Someone needs to walk again to overcome resentment about what others do!

Cultivate your own garden. (Candide paraphrase)

 

[OzAnnie]

However, I noticed a big difference between the two Camino's in that: on the Primitivo pilgrims were walking to the albergues and knocking on the doors to ask if there were any beds available. On the Frances many "pilgrims" were pre-booking accommodation by telephone, text, email and Booking.com often for days in advance. Many of these "pilgrims" were also having their luggage shipped each day and carrying a small day sack.

I also saw bus loads of "pilgrims" being dropped of and then picked up a few kilometres further along and then taken to a restaurant for lunch. After lunch they would be taken to another drop off point and picked up again a little further along before being driven to their hotel for the evening. These were clearly able bodied tourists.

Hi Ian
I can feel for your frustration.
But try to understand the tourigrinos.
We are the fortunate ones. A lot of these people getting assistance with accommodation and support carrying gear are in that position because they have tried to find out about the Camino via google for example , and have been directed to tour companies. I have a friend who has asked me all about the Camino and I pointed him to this forum first. A lot being supported probably aren't aware !

Buen camino
Annie

 

[marbuck]

I personally would like to see some sort of fence around the pile so as to stop this unacceptable, egotistical, self-centred behaviour in the future.

Maybe the fence could stop so called pilgrims leaving what the Spanish think is litter. Where did this "tradition" of leaving a rock from a foreign land start. It's all litter that must be cleaned up by the local authority.

 

[billmclaughlin]

I'm sympathetic but this?

"Also, the number of new albergues and guest houses springing up all over the place as entrepreneurs seek to make a quick Euro out of the pilgrims purse. "

Who's exploiting whom? Through the miracle of international currency exchange, many "pilgrims" take advantage of the lower standard of living in Spain to enjoy a rustic adventure.....

 

[Deleted member 3000]

try to understand the tourigrinos

Most of the tour bus tourigrinos stay in hotels in places like A Coruna and are bused each day to a starting point. In general they are not taking pilgrim beds, though they may be competition for a cafe con leche. Customers of Jacotrans and Correos do use pilgrim beds, but municipal and parochial albergues generally do not accept them. The pilgrims who are pretty much like you and me are the ones creating the apparent crunch. If it is you or them, who should stay home?

 

[grayland]

Gently folks....

Give some thoughts to your comments before you tap the reply button.

Remember all are entitled to express their opinion ...even those you disagree with.

Please do not attack or denigrate the opinions of others.

 

[Robo]

I deleted my post Grayland...

 

[cher99840]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see any difference in walking on other peoples "sacred" stones to plant mine on the top and someone else riding to the top on a bicycle. I don't see any difference in photographing a walker amid the stones and a biker amid the stones.

 

[Carol06]

I am currently on the Camino and a lot of things you talk about irritate me too. But I really have to say "get over it". Things change. I walked four years ago and carried my pack and stayed mainly in albergues. This time I am forwarding my pack and booking ahead. I have no qualms about it. I admire those who do it the old way, but I would not still be on the trail if I could not avail myself of these things that ease my path.
There are many older pilgrims than last time and I think it is fantastic that they can be here with the help that is available. And I am no longer a "sweet young thing".

 

[williamlittig]

I have just completed my second Camino. My partner and I walked the Primitivo together last September, and I started the Camino Frances in late April, was joined by my partner in Leon in May and we finished it together in June.

However, I noticed a big difference between the two Camino's in that: on the Primitivo pilgrims were walking to the albergues and knocking on the doors to ask if there were any beds available. On the Frances many "pilgrims" were pre-booking accommodation by telephone, text, email and Booking.com often for days in advance. Many of these "pilgrims" were also having their luggage shipped each day and carrying a small day sack.

I also saw bus loads of "pilgrims" being dropped of and then picked up a few kilometres further along and then taken to a restaurant for lunch. After lunch they would be taken to another drop off point and picked up again a little further along before being driven to their hotel for the evening. These were clearly able bodied tourists.

Also, the number of new albergues and guest houses springing up all over the place as entrepreneurs seek to make a quick Euro out of the pilgrims purse.

Sadly I feel strongly that within a few years the Camino will be nothing more that a long distance holiday resort where tourists can get a certificate to prove that they've spent some time in Northern Spain.

I am extremely proud of my Compostelas, I have one already framed and I shall have the second one framed. I am now busy researching the Portuguese route.

I have one more negative comment, whilst my partner and I, accompanied by a lovely German lady, laid our stones on the pile at Cruz de Ferro we were disgusted to see a group of about eight selfish, Spanish cyclists ride their mountain bikes up to the top of the stone pile as though it was an extra hazard for them to enjoy. They then posed for photos holding their bikes aloft.

Many thousands of people have carried their stones from the four corners of the earth to place on the pile, often as a token of a loved or lost one. I personally would like to see some sort of fence around the pile so as to stop this unacceptable, egotistical, self-centred behaviour in the future.

I'm sorry to sound so negative but this is how I sometimes felt during my Camino. On my walk I met lots of wonderful people from many countries and for the most part of it I had a wonderful experience. If I was forty years younger I'd have a go at doing the Frances in both directions.

Let's not lose sight of what it's all about.

Buen Camino

Ian Hooper

"Let's not lose sight of what it's all about" is exactly what is all about, an individual quest and experience. Our lives are all different.......... Ultreya....... Willy/Utah/USA

 

[Bad Pilgrim]

"Individual quest and experience" means that you can behave in any way you want? I don't like to think of the Camino being a trail of holy, untouchable individuals walking their own way and never thinking about the context they are in. Individualism can easily turn to egoistic behaviour. (Yes, I read the Moderator's text above about respecting each other here on the Forum and I think that is what I/we do? In order to have a discussion, we have to disagree.)

If every thread about this topic has to end with "oh well, we shall not judge, we are all different, its 'your own camino' and no one should tell anyone else what to do"... then I guess the conclusion is that you CAN behave as you want on the Camino. Throwing litter by the trail for example.

/BP

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Throwing litter by the trail for example.

It happens all the time. If I became roiled every time I saw a piece of litter, I could not possibly enjoy the walk. I resolve not to be one of the litters, and plod on.

 

[Kathor1]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see any difference in walking on other peoples "sacred" stones to plant mine on the top and someone else riding to the top on a bicycle. I don't see any difference in photographing a walker amid the stones and a biker amid the stones.

The conflict arises because some see it as a heap of stones and part of the natural environment while others see it as a sacred place which demands appropriate behaviour by everyone present, such as (perhaps) moving slowly, quietly, etc. Note that the definition of appropriate behaviour also depends on individual background/cultural context, just think of some Christian cemeteries where it is ok to drink, eat and party at special occasions while unthinkable in others.

Historically, all that is known with certainty is that there are heaps of stones in these mountains and in similar areas and that people passing by have added stones to these heaps.

 

[RumAndChupacabras]

@Ianhooper,
I just came back from my first Camino (Portuguese) and witnessed everything you mentioned. Part of my mindset before I left was that I believed The Camino was going to be something like one's life in a very condensed period of time. None of us know what any other person has in their mind, heart or past, right? So when I saw these things (and more) I focused deeper within because that's what I do in my daily life.

What @nellpilgrim said above:

It's core 'identity' has survived for well over 1000 years under all sorts of pressures ... What changes are our own expectations and those of fellow pilgrims. The numbers of pilgrims (no matter how they travel), ... have as much right to be there as I do...
I try to ask myself ... what do I contribute to the Camino/Chemin/Jakobsweg/Via I'm walking- how do I impact other pilgrims or the people whose towns and villages I walk through? In essence what is my defining pilgrim identity as a experienced by others?

Buen Camino

 

[kerrychick]

I think we can all agree the Camino is a personal journey

it is a pilgrimage first and for most but in this world we live in all is fair game to be exploited .

I am old school as well and would love the Camino to remain a well kept secret ....dream on.

 

[Lmsundaze]

Walking the Camino last month I talked to some people who were on tours. They were older women who did not know there was an option to go independently. They were discontented for several reasons. First, the distances were very long for some of them and they were under a lot of pressure to go faster than was physically comfortable. By the time they got to their group lunch the picnic food would be almost gone. Their accommodations were well off the camino and often took 45 minutes to bus to. They were served dinners at 8. They were bussed to the Camino to start walking at about 10. It was a bad experience for them but they didn't have any knowledge that they could go independently. A lot of people in this age group are not that internet savvy to realize the possibility of going on their own. That said, I am sure the tours worked great for some people, but I wouldn't recommend it to a friend. I know these people were just as much pilgrims as I was, they just didn't have the knowledge to know how easy it could be to go alone.

 

[t2andreo]

Every pilgrim walks or rides their own Camino. It is not for me to judge the relative merit or worthiness of these individual efforts.

That said, it is also incumbent on EVERY pilgrim to accord all other pilgrims respect and consideration. As a group, and in my experience, the bike riders do tend to be a tad more rambunctious and intrusive, than walking pilgrims. I have not yet deduced why this is so. But, common sense and shared decency and consideration should prevail among all pilgrims. The Camino is for all to share and benefit from.

As regards the apparent increasing use of commercial services for a variety of support activities along the Camino, I have no issues with them. Personally, as I age, and my physical limitations begin to close in on me, the threat to my ability to make pilgrimage becomes more real.

On my first Camino in 2013, and again in 2014 and 2015, I was fine to walk each day, up and down hills, in all sorts of weather, while carrying about 13 Kg. I must carry powdered protein food supplements and other medicines due to a chronic physical condition. My added rucksack weight penalty is about 2.5 Kg weekly, over what everyone around me might be carrying. I carry the extra 5 kg or so,for two weeks, and mail adequate replacement supplies ahead to await my arrival and replenishment.

This year, my knees, ankles, then my hips all protested - loudly. This forced my Madrid Route Camino to end at Sarria. While I was disappointed and frankly depressed, I was able to keep it in perspective. I DID accomplish a credible portion of a Camino. I enjoyed most of it, when I was not in pain. I will (hopefully) live to do it again, next year. Not obtaining a fourth Compostela was a relative thing, as I already have three. So, I just asked for a sello at the Pilgrim Office.

My point in mentioning this is to focus on some pilgrims, in a certain age and physical condition segment of the pilgrim community, who NEED some support to accomplish their Caminos. We will all, hopefully, live long enough to realize this limitation. We will all, hopefully, continue to remain interested in the Camino de Santiago.

Not all pilgrims who use mochila transport services, or might be using a travel agency arranged shuttle service are "tourigrinos." Some may be tourists at heart. But, my personal experiences of late have realigned my thinking a bit. In future, I may need to have my gear moved each day, ahead to my planned and pre-reserved lodgings, while reducing my daily carry-load to only essential supplies and gear needed for the day's walk. This does not make me less of a pilgrim.

Put into a historic perspective, it would be as if a group of medieval pilgrims had their "gear" carried-on ahead in a wagon, to a planned nightly stop or camp, while they walked with only staffs, and gourds. I can easily image someone doing this "back in the day." So, the contemporary custom of using commercial services likely has an antecedent. Hence, I have no problem with this.

In fact, this is typically how some "pelotons" of cyclists manage their gear. They ride light and have a vehicle carry their gear, repair parts etc, ahead to their planned nightly stops.

The bicyclists are another issue. While I support their access to and "right" to do the Camino on a bicycle, I would personally prefer is they rode the adjacent secondary or tertiary road system that is mapped in guide books for their use in doing a Camino. This is how the road bike folks accomplish their bicycle Caminos.

The frequent retort I get from bicycle aficionados is that the road network is not as safe as the footpaths they ride their mountain bikes on. My rejoinder is to point out that, in choosing to use the foot path route, they are making it less safe for the predominate group of walking pilgrims. There are alternatives for bike riders, but far fewer alternatives for walking pilgrims.

But, until they all use bells, horns, or learn to shout ahead their overtaking walking pilgrims, there will continue to be tension between the two camps.

I hope this helps.

 

[jimabfalter]

I have just completed my second Camino. My partner and I walked the Primitivo together last September, and I started the Camino Frances in late April, was joined by my partner in Leon in May and we finished it together in June.

However, I noticed a big difference between the two Camino's in that: on the Primitivo pilgrims were walking to the albergues and knocking on the doors to ask if there were any beds available. On the Frances many "pilgrims" were pre-booking accommodation by telephone, text, email and Booking.com often for days in advance. Many of these "pilgrims" were also having their luggage shipped each day and carrying a small day sack.

I also saw bus loads of "pilgrims" being dropped of and then picked up a few kilometres further along and then taken to a restaurant for lunch. After lunch they would be taken to another drop off point and picked up again a little further along before being driven to their hotel for the evening. These were clearly able bodied tourists.

Also, the number of new albergues and guest houses springing up all over the place as entrepreneurs seek to make a quick Euro out of the pilgrims purse.

Sadly I feel strongly that within a few years the Camino will be nothing more that a long distance holiday resort where tourists can get a certificate to prove that they've spent some time in Northern Spain.

I am extremely proud of my Compostelas, I have one already framed and I shall have the second one framed. I am now busy researching the Portuguese route.

I have one more negative comment, whilst my partner and I, accompanied by a lovely German lady, laid our stones on the pile at Cruz de Ferro we were disgusted to see a group of about eight selfish, Spanish cyclists ride their mountain bikes up to the top of the stone pile as though it was an extra hazard for them to enjoy. They then posed for photos holding their bikes aloft.

Many thousands of people have carried their stones from the four corners of the earth to place on the pile, often as a token of a loved or lost one. I personally would like to see some sort of fence around the pile so as to stop this unacceptable, egotistical, self-centred behaviour in the future.

I'm sorry to sound so negative but this is how I sometimes felt during my Camino. On my walk I met lots of wonderful people from many countries and for the most part of it I had a wonderful experience. If I was forty years younger I'd have a go at doing the Frances in both directions.

Let's not lose sight of what it's all about.

Buen Camino

Ian Hooper

 

[jimabfalter]

How about just posting on the wonderful experiences you had and not dwelling on how you would have liked it to be. My wife and I walked it last sept during a very busy time and it was nothing like I expected, so I made the best of it and the only time I think of negatives is when I read a post like this. Sorry to bum you out, but those are my feelings

 

[mcopeland]

On the Frances many "pilgrims" were pre-booking accommodation by telephone, text, email and Booking.com often for days in advance. Many of these "pilgrims" were also having their luggage shipped each day and carrying a small day sack.

I have a real problem with your use of quotes here. We are still on the Camino - just a few days from Santiago. We are pre-booking after a couple of bad experiences (private rooms now). I have been sending my bag ahead since Pamplona (my husband is carrying his). None of this was in my plans, but my knees and feet and inability to sleep at all in a room full of people have told me otherwise. I could have just gone home after Roncesvailles when I wanted to quit. I felt devastated for days that I could not carry my bag like a "real" pilgrim. I've also had to take a taxi, train and bus because of injuries or lost time (not in the last 100 kms. of course).

"Tourigrino"? We are all tourists, voyeurs of another culture.

By the way, stayed in a "real" albergue a couple of days ago when they gave our private room away to someone with the same name. Everyone was booking ahead.

 

[David]

The post title is " Is the Camino losing its identity" ... well, I would say that the Camino, the pilgrimage, is exactly what it is each day. One has only to read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales to realise that there has never been a golden age, a pure time ... humans are humans and the Camino is what it is and not what one wants it to be in one's mind.
That said I am ashamed to say that I had a 'glitch' this spring when I was out doing first aid .... for some reason there weren't that many pilgrims, and most of them were disgustingly healthy but I suddenly noticed that every pilgrim I could see, sitting at tables in a village square, or standing around chatting - all were in really expensive designer trekking clothing and i started to think about my role and their, well, wealth I suppose .. and I judged - terrible I know, a rather big glitch! - and I felt that my role was to help those in need, not middle class walkers with lots of disposable income .. so I walked away ...... drove back to England to some (pleasant) family stuff that came up.
After a while, a few weeks really, I realised the thought processes that I had allowed myself .. and I think that they came from the same headspace as the original post - were utterly invalid ... in the parable of the Good Samaritan we do not know the status of the injured man, nor who he was ... the parable is about the response without judgment and I failed - and I still don't really know why - my point - sorry for the rambling - is that the Camino is what it is, what it is each day, all else is in our heads, made up ... so it matters not at all how other pilgrims Camino - it matters only how we Camino, and inside the best dressed pilgrim or the wildest mountain biker, there can be a broken heart, don't you think?

As for the stones at Cruz de Ferro .. to us, most of us, it would be like cycling through a church during a service - but maybe they don't know that? I have been in Eunate, kneeling and meditating and had pilgrims come in, taking photographs and chatting about the inside - as if I wasn't there .. no sense of boundaries - What can you do??
except be who we are and allow what they are just to pass into sight and out of sight again - clouds do that, rain clouds do that, jet aeroplanes and birds do that and we do not stir, nor complain ..
oh dear, I've gone on too long again! Apologies!!

p.s. Saint Theresa of Avilia did the Camino, her pilgrimage, in a coach and four with servants

 

[LisaAnn]

A couple favorite quotes which apply:

"Never ever judge anyone. You don't know their story and what's really going on. A smile can hide so much."

"There's a story behind every person. There's a reason why they're the way they are. Pain alters our personality."

 

[Icacos]

Then there's: "Be kind, everyone is carrying a heavy burden."

Tempered by: "Everyone has his burden. What counts is how you carry it."

 

[naplesdon]

How about just posting on the wonderful experiences you had and not dwelling on how you would have liked it to be. My wife and I walked it last sept during a very busy time and it was nothing like I expected, so I made the best of it and the only time I think of negatives is when I read a post like this. Sorry to bum you out, but those are my feelings

The first time I walked the Camino it was with "rose" colored glasses. There was nothing like the "wow" of the newness of the experience and the unending awe inspiring days.
This pure pilgrim had become a veteran and decided to walk again but this time had a peek behind the curtains. Things were not quite as pristine as that first adventure, the food was not quite as tasty, the beds were lumpy, there was litter and trash, the showers were filthy and there were people I saw who didn't adhere to the "true" pilgrim ethos as I thought it should be.
A few Camino later I got over it. In my situation my health required me to use Jacotrans a few times, I took a bus once or twice on days that I wasn't interested in "reviewing" the landscape during a rainy day and I tried alternative routes just to avoid the CF.
Guess what, the negatives are there the first time and they will be there the next time just like they were probably there in 2010 the year before I did my first Camino.
Dwell on the positive! Walk with "rose" colored glasses.

 

[David]

A couple favorite quotes which apply:

"Never ever judge anyone. You don't know their story and what's really going on. A smile can hide so much."

"There's a story behind every person. There's a reason why they're the way they are. Pain alters our personality."

And then there is this (paraphrased) Steve Martin quote ....

“Before you criticize [sic] a pilgrim, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you'll be a mile away and have their shoes.”

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The camino was here for a thousand years before we arrived, and it will be here a thousand years after we're gone. It hasn't lost its identity. It's just us who lose our way, trying to nail down what the camino is, and trying to make it fit our preconceptions.
The Camino de Santiago is made of strong, strong stuff.
It's been screwed, blewed, and tattooed before, and survived. It will survive this, too.

 

[naplesdon]

It would be so easy to get the moderators to close this thread down with some pithy politically incorrect comment, but I'll just say this about the recent death of child at Disney World. Alligators have live in my state of Florida for millenniums and they will continue to live here until the end of time. Alligators and Florida are synonymous and have a symbiotic relationship. The same can be said about pilgrims and the Camino.

 

[ZenPeregrino]

Regarding the actions of others along the Way: maybe yes; maybe no.

To paraphrase the wise comments of previous responders, when one recognizes a strongly held jusgment about the actions of others, it can be helpful to remember a famous Chinese proverb:

"Once there was a Chinese farmer who worked his poor farm together with his son and their horse. When the horse ran off one day, neighbors came to say, “How unfortunate for you!” The farmer replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”

When the horse returned, followed by a herd of wild horses, the neighbors gathered around and exclaimed, “What good luck for you!” The farmer stayed calm and replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”
While trying to tame one of wild horses, the farmer’s son fell, and broke his leg. He had to rest up and couldn’t help with the farm chores. “How sad for you,” the neighbors cried. “Maybe yes, maybe no,” said the farmer.

Shortly thereafter, a neighboring army threatened the farmer’s village. All the young men in the village were drafted to fight the invaders. Many died. But the farmer’s son had been left out of the fighting because of his broken leg. People said to the farmer, “What a good thing your son couldn’t fight!” “Maybe yes, maybe no,” was all the farmer said."

 

[SYates]

... true pilgrims can then lay their stones in the confidence that they will not be abused or disrespected.

Ian

There are no true nor non-true pilgrims for me, there are just pilgrims. All of the 250,000+ that arrived, f.e., last year in Santiago, no matter their mode of transport. If we start to judge others the danger is we are also judged by others and are we really ready to for that? Buen Camino sin jucio, SY

 

[naplesdon]

There are no true nor non-true pilgrims for me, there are just pilgrims. All of the 250,000+ that arrived, f.e., last year in Santiago, no matter there mode of transport. If we start to judge others the danger is we are also judged by others and are we really ready to for that? Buen Camino sin jucio, SY

Wonderful words my friend.
BTW, I left a stone and a photo at the Cruz de Ferro in memory of my daughter in 2014. I went back by car a few months later with a friend who was unable to walk the Camino. We visited the Cruz, at first he was overwhelmed by the emotions there and then later could not believe that my small donation was no longer in clear view.
Like others I have feelings about what we pilgrims leave behind as souvenirs, in the true sense of the french word, remembrances.
To the man who maintains the site, perhaps he might see it as a sacred site but he also must see it as a lot of "stuff" to be removed and disposed of year after year. I only hope it goes into some kind of rock crusher and is used as filling on the path for that awful descent to Molinseca.
Which is my segue to this

Regarding the actions of others along the Way: maybe yes; maybe no.

To paraphrase the wise comments of previous responders, when one recognizes a strongly held jusgment about the actions of others, it can be helpful to remember a famous Chinese proverb:

"Once there was a Chinese farmer who worked his poor farm together with his son and their horse. When the horse ran off one day, neighbors came to say, “How unfortunate for you!” The farmer replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”

When the horse returned, followed by a herd of wild horses, the neighbors gathered around and exclaimed, “What good luck for you!” The farmer stayed calm and replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”
While trying to tame one of wild horses, the farmer’s son fell, and broke his leg. He had to rest up and couldn’t help with the farm chores. “How sad for you,” the neighbors cried. “Maybe yes, maybe no,” said the farmer.

Shortly thereafter, a neighboring army threatened the farmer’s village. All the young men in the village were drafted to fight the invaders. Many died. But the farmer’s son had been left out of the fighting because of his broken leg. People said to the farmer, “What a good thing your son couldn’t fight!” “Maybe yes, maybe no,” was all the farmer said."

Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Maybe yes, maybe no!

 

[domigee]

Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Maybe yes, maybe no!

Very moving.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Ah, but the gators were shot at Disney, not the pilgrims :0).

It really is about managing expenctations. I am one who was in shock last year after walking the Primitivo and moving into the Frances. Clarly thought the Camino had lost its identity. After all, I had always enjoyed it and found it beautiful, until that day in Melide. But this year I walked from Porto, and did not enjoy myself: rain, blah scenery... But that Camino has not yet been invaded in the way the Frances has, and yet I did not like it. Guess it's not so much a out if the Camino has changed or not, it's about what I would like it to be like, and it doesn't work that way.

As for the Cruz de Ferro, no surprise I second @Katharina's posts: it's not because a few tourist guidebooks suggest people bring a stone to leave behind that this new practice becomes sacred. Sorry the OP was misinformed and had his feelings hurt.

Very different from people walking into a church chatting, espcially when others are praying, nevermind the circus at the Santiago Cathdral where tourists have to be reminded over andover again to stop talking and not to take pictures during mass, something noone seems to hear despite the new and improved sound system.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Sy, I have a question: you call the 250k+ people who asked for a Compostela last uear pilgrims. You are an avid walker, walking all sorts of different paths, in different countries. Do people walking those routes consider themselves pilgrims, even on routes that have no ties to religious history?

 

[VNwalking]

I was out walking this morning, near a busy country road. I often walk there, and have only once encountered another walker even though there is a perfectly good path. Hundreds of cars were whizzing by.
This thread came to mind and everything I had thought to say about pilgrims and pilgrimage went out the window--because it hit me: by comparison to most people in most modern 1st world cultures what any of us do in walking the Camino is quite astonishing.
However we walk it.
Even the 'tourigrinos.'
There's no scale of 'betterness' here unless we create it in our hearts with all our fixed views and opinions.
How kindly we treat each other and how we relate to what's going on inside is more what matters.
The rest--I believe it was Rumi who called that 'smoke and mirrors'...

And the Camino? Its earth has received millions of footsteps of all kinds for a millennium. It just receives. It'll be fine.

 

[VNwalking]

“Maybe yes, maybe no”

Thank you ZenPeregrino!
That's a favorite story...that reminded me of another. As with pilgrimage, what matters is intention. And we need to take care of our intention rather than minding other people's business. Especially when it bugs us :

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.
Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his 
journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them. Two more hours passed, then three, then half a day. Finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river hours ago. Why are you still carrying her?”

 

[SYates]

Sy, I have a question: you call the 250k+ people who asked for a Compostela last uear pilgrims. You are an avid walker, walking all sorts of different paths, in different countries. Do people walking those routes consider themselves pilgrims, even on routes that have no ties to religious history?

I have only walked one route (John Muir Way, Scotland) that isn't a pilgrim path and that was in November, so I didn't meet any other walkers. So, I can't answer your question. Buen Camino, SY

 

[SabsP]

Thank you ZenPeregrino!
That's a favorite story...that reminded me of another. As with pilgrimage, what matters is intention. And we need to take care of our intention rather than minding other people's business. Especially when it bugs us :

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.
Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his 
journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them. Two more hours passed, then three, then half a day. Finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river hours ago. Why are you still carrying her?”

Can I triple like this Viranani! It is a beautiful story and a good reminder for me too....Thank you.

 

[Kathor1]

I do think that the "Camino" is in danger of losing its identity, the identity that has been built up during the last decades. "Camino" isn't the same as pilgrimage in the Middle Ages which is extinct and will never be revived.

Why is today's Camino Frances such a global success, in contrast to other once highly frequented routes and destinations for pilgrims? Were these routes made of less strong stuff? Or are there other more mundane reasons?

To answer the OP's question, one needs to clarify what this identity is. Most of the answers given are advice to adapt to changing conditions and to lower expectations compared to past experience. Doesn't it mean that something is getting lost, and not for the better?

 

[trevorcc]

Peace and safe travel to all that walk the Camino no matter how or why.

 

[jennie]

Peace and safe travel to all that walk the Camino no matter how or why.

short sweet and to the point,perfect!maybe there is a need to just remind also respect and a smile to all you meet ,,oh and a cheery buen camino .

 

[Pelegrin]

short sweet and to the point,perfect!maybe there is a need to just remind also respect and a smile to all you meet ,,oh and a cheery buen camino .

Yes, no matter race, religion or referendum results

 

[Anemone del Camino]

"Why is today's Camino such a global success n contrast to other past routes?" asks Katha1na... 2 reasons: super inexpensive and filled with convience and "amenitites": cafe con leche bars every few km, restaurants with pilgrim meals served early and at a low coast, albergues wvery few km, buses, taxis, mochileros, and relatively easy terrain with lots of people in fron and back of you for a sense of security and companionship/distraction making the km go by faster.

Take those features away and see the numbers dwindle and see who is really walking with intent, be is religious or spiritual.

 

[Bad Pilgrim]

Last general observation:

I see that my post above (far above now) was accurate. I really CAN behave as I want, for example go on throwing litter along the camino. Other pilgrims will just take a deep breath of mindfullness, "choose" not to see me, and in an act of kindness say nothing to me. I draw a lot on conclusions from this. Well, I guess you learn something every day.

Good bye.

/BP

 

[ZenPeregrino]

"Make the Camino Great Again?" I'm not so sure.

I have a close friend who suffers from MS. She wanted to do the Camino for almost 20 years. Thanks to all of the "features" described, she was able to successfully walk a major portion of the Camino two years ago by relying advance reservations, backpack forwarding, taxis, etc. It was even more transformative than she had hoped, and her life has been changed forever in religious and spiritual dimensions, at least as profoundly as any other peregrina in the last 1,000 years or so.

Many of these features are opening the Way to a wider and more diverse set of peregrinas than ever before. I welcome them all. Even those whose intentions may not appear to reflect "true" religious or spiritual motivation at the outset, perhaps they may find even a single moment of grace along the Way, which may then propagate through humanity in unknown and untold directions.

The light of a candle flame is not diminished when it is used to light thousands of other candles - even if many of those candles burn out quickly, the total light in the world can only increase.

This is, of course, only my view and your mileage may vary. Which I respect as well.

Buen Camino.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

And what percentage of those on the Frances do people in your friend's situation represent? 1 in 1000, in 5000? I cannot say I have noticed the Camino looking like Lourdes these days. Let's look at the big picture, especially when in response to "What is the Camino a global success".

 

[ZenPeregrino]

"And what percentage of those on the Frances do people in your friend's situation represent?".

I believe that my friend's situation represents approximately 100 % of those on Camino Frances (or any Camino). They are all responding to some call and/or searching for some solution, explanation or relief to whatever particular suffering they have encountered. My friend's particular suffering just happens to require a specific set of logistical solutions. That does not somehow make her "different" from others peregrinas.

Everyone walks their own Camino.

In that context, I think tactical questions about differences in miscellaneous logistical approaches are simply that : tactical. Of course tactical choices must be made and the logistical implications properly dealt with. I am not suggesting anarchy. I am simply suggesting that the enlightened Camino experience or "identity" is not derived from the tactical and logistical traditions that were developed for a particular set of pilgrims at a particular point in time. Many Broadway fans viewed the idea of a rap/hip-hop production as abhorrent and in violation of the Broadway "identity," right up until Lin-Manuel Miranda did his thing. Now the "traditions" have been rewritten, with nearly universal acclaim.

Thus, in my view the tactics of any particular approach to any unique individual's Camino experience should have maximum flexibility in order to enable the broadest possible set of peregrinas to walk "their" Camino. I think most (nearly all?) of the tactical "features" chosen by one peregrina have no real bearing on the larger existential experience for any other peregrina. In fact, my belief goes further - that each existing or traditional peregrina's experience is actually enhanced by increasing the diversity of all peregrinas.

My view of the big picture is that the more human beings who experience even a taste of the Way, the more candles are lit.

Having said all of this, I do appreciate and understand that your views diverge from mine on a number of points that have been raised. I am not here to try to convince you to change your perspective. I have simply tried to provide elucidation of my perspective in hopes that other readers may find such explanation of value in pondering the issues raised. I feel satisfied that I have done so (quite verbosely, I'm afraid) so this will be my final communication on the topic.

Thanks for the question, and for your obvious passion for the grace and beauty of each person's Camino. Ultreia!

 

[SYates]

...
I see that my post above (far above now) was accurate. I really CAN behave as I want, for example go on throwing litter along the camino. Other pilgrims will just take a deep breath of mindfullness, "choose" not to see me, and in an act of kindness say nothing to me. I draw a lot on conclusions from this. Well, I guess you learn something every day.

Good bye.

/BP

I can't say anything about what others would do, but I have and will always challenge behaviour like this - littering the Camino(s), insulting others, being disrespectful etc BUT the difference is how one does this and also to do it on a kind/respectful one to one base. There is a fine line between judging peoples behaviour ("They are not true pilgrims") and, lets say, educate them about the outcome of their behaviour. I hope I manage to tip-toe this line as good as possible. Buen Camino, SY

 

[VNwalking]

Last general observation:
I see that my post above (far above now) was accurate. I really CAN behave as I want, for example go on throwing litter along the camino. Other pilgrims will just take a deep breath of mindfullness, "choose" not to see me, and in an act of kindness say nothing to me. I draw a lot on conclusions from this. Well, I guess you learn something every day.
Good bye.
/BP

Language has its pitfalls.
There's judging and there's judgement in the sense of discernment. The
first is a source of pain for everyone and the second is essential.
Sometimes people do things that require response rather than passive acquiescence.
I have on occasion (perhaps a bit too sweetly) told some litterers that they dropped something while returning it to them.
It's an obnoxious thing to do, but then again so is littering.

 

[Jeff Johnston]

I am planning my first Camino (Frances) in Sept/Oct 2017. I will have just turned a ripe 73 years old and have a number of pains and infirmities from 73 years of "life."

It is not my plan, but if I had to use a courier to transport my backpack on a few occasions, I would hope that others not see me as an "invalid" pilgrim.

I do my best (and I have to work at it!) to not judge others, lest I be judged.

Buen Camino!

Fr. Jeff+

 

[Lmsundaze]

I am planning my first Camino (Frances) in Sept/Oct 2017. I will have just turned a ripe 73 years old and have a number of pains and infirmities from 73 years of "life."

It is not my plan, but if I had to use a courier to transport my backpack on a few occasions, I would hope that others not see me as an "invalid" pilgrim.

I do my best (and I have to work at it!) to not judge others, lest I be judged.

Buen Camino

I am planning my first Camino (Frances) in Sept/Oct 2017. I will have just turned a ripe 73 years old and have a number of pains and infirmities from 73 years of "life."

It is not my plan, but if I had to use a courier to transport my backpack on a few occasions, I would hope that others not see me as an "invalid" pilgrim.

I do my best (and I have to work at it!) to not judge others, lest I be judged.

Buen Camino!

Fr. Jeff+

Fr. Jeff, it makes me sad that you would think that transporting your backpack would invalidate your pilgrimage. As a 70 year old, who also has infirmities, who just completed the Camino Francés with some use of transport, here is my take. The downside to transporting your bag is that you must decide in advance where you are stopping, and lose the spontaneity of walking until you are ready to stop. BUT the upside is you know where you are staying (if you are slow) and you can keep going. You know your own body. When it is steep, slippery, and muddy, sending your bag on can make it possible to continue your pilgrimage. It is inexpensive to ship ahead, and I don't think there is anything magical about backpacking everything. I hope your pilgrimage will be wonderful! Take care of yourself and don't get injured, listen to your body and you will know what to do.

 

[Jeff Johnston]

Fr. Jeff, it makes me sad that you would think that transporting your backpack would invalidate your pilgrimage. As a 70 year old, who also has infirmities, who just completed the Camino Francés with some use of transport, here is my take. The downside to transporting your bag is that you must decide in advance where you are stopping, and lose the spontaneity of walking until you are ready to stop. BUT the upside is you know where you are staying (if you are slow) and you can keep going. You know your own body. When it is steep, slippery, and muddy, sending your bag on can make it possible to continue your pilgrimage. It is inexpensive to ship ahead, and I don't think there is anything magical about backpacking everything. I hope your pilgrimage will be wonderful! Take care of yourself and don't get injured, listen to your body and you will know what to do.

Imsundaze: Thank you. I will transport pack if needed, but hopefully not at all. I do not like the though of losing the spontaneity if I do so, so it will be a last resort. I shall do as you suggest and listen to this old body.

 

[trecile]

There's judging and there's judgement in the sense of discernment.

There's judgement = condemnation, and judgement=discernment. Two different meanings, and unfortunately the same word.

2 reasons: super inexpensive and filled with convience and "amenitites": cafe con leche bars every few km, restaurants with pilgrim meals served early and at a low coast, albergues wvery few km, buses, taxis, mochileros, and relatively easy terrain with lots of people in fron and back of you for a sense of security and companionship/distraction making the km go by faster.

And those are exactly the reasons that the Camino appeals to me. I will not be on a pilgrimage, but rather a long walk through northern Spain, where I can see the country and meet the people much differently than I could any other way. Of course I will be respectful of the country, its people and those who are walking as pilgrims. No one should be littering and being disrespectful regardless of whether they are on the Camino or in their home town.

 

[C clearly]

And those are exactly the reasons that the Camino appeals to me.

That is confirming the point that @Anemone del Camino was making, in answer to the question "Why is today's Camino such a global success in contrast to other past routes?" If those amenities disappeared, the number of people on the route would be reduced drastically, including many or most of us!

 

[VNwalking]

I would hope that others not see me as an "invalid" pilgrim.

Not me. You'd just be that guy from Michigan called Fr. Jeff.
Buen Camino Jeff!

 

[Anemone del Camino]

And what is wrong with juging, as in comdenmation? It's because we feared our parents' and teachers' jugement that we worked harder at school, treated people politely, etc. In settings where ceetain standards and behaviours are expeceted jugement in normal.

Do we not juge how clean albergues are, how welcoming and helpful hospies are? That's because we expect a basic level of both. Do we not comment on the meals we are served? While I don't think many expect more than a clean bed, clean bathroom and clean kitchen I do beleive we would pass jugement on a dirty albergue, and grouchy hospiy, even for our 5 €. Or would we accept "It's my way of being a hopsy, deal with it" as so many appaerently accept "ot's my Camino".

But I suppose that with this new trend of telling children how special and wonderful they are to make them feel good about themselves, or this idea that grades are bad, one can imagine how this is translating into telling everyone setting foot on the Camino they are pilgrims, doing their best and behaving superbly when they take short cuts, demand comforts, misbehave along the way, and certainly don't make any efforts or sacrifices. After helicopter parents do we now have helicopter forum members? ;0)

 

[C clearly]

And what is wrong with juging, as in comdenmation?

The examples you gave are quite reasonable ways to judge - I'm with you on that. However, even this type of judgement should be made and communicated with "discernment"! That is true as true for childraising as for discussions about pilgrimage.

The "problem" judgement is where we start to judge a person's worth at a higher level in the scheme of the universe - are they "real pilgrims" or not. We need to be very careful there, and should have the humility to understand our own limitations.

 

[Falcon]

Last general observation:

I see that my post above (far above now) was accurate. I really CAN behave as I want, for example go on throwing litter along the camino. Other pilgrims will just take a deep breath of mindfullness, "choose" not to see me, and in an act of kindness say nothing to me. I draw a lot on conclusions from this. Well, I guess you learn something every day.

Good bye.

/BP

You can choose to be confined by other's people's limitations
but I still think some things are worth fighting for : so pick your battles.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The examples you gave are quite reasonable ways to judge - I'm with you on that. However, even this type of judgement should be made and communicated with "discernment"! That is true as true for childraising as for discussions about pilgrimage.

The "problem" judgement is where we start to judge a person's worth at a higher level in the scheme of the universe - are they "real pilgrims" or not. We need to be very careful there, and should have the humility to understand our own limitations.

Not sure how/if "defining" what a pilgrim is or if one is one equates with attributing worth in the scheme of the universe. I certainly have never even thought about linking the two. I just look at the Camino, its history, its rules and culture, and how those on that route behave against them while still patting themselves on the back and demanding to be considered a pilgrim. A person may be a turigrino and still be a most excellent human being; if only they didn't insist on passing go and collecting 200$ while not wanting to follow the rules, culture, etc., accusing those who may be calling them on it of "juging".

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The examples you gave are quite reasonable ways to judge - I'm with you on that. However, even this type of judgement should be made and communicated with "discernment"! That is true as true for childraising as for discussions about pilgrimage.

The "problem" judgement is where we start to judge a person's worth at a higher level in the scheme of the universe - are they "real pilgrims" or not. We need to be very careful there, and should have the humility to understand our own limitations.

Not sure how/if "defining" what a pilgrim is or if one is one equates with attributing worth in the scheme of the universe. I certainly have never even thought about linking the two. I just look at the Camino, its history, its rules and culture, and how those on that route behave against them while still patting themselves on the back and demanding to be considered a pilgrim. A person may be a turigrino and still be a most excellent human being; what I dislike is those who insist on disreagarding the rules, culture, etc., while accusing those who may be calling them on it of ""juging".

Nothing wrong being a tourist, just own it, don't try to labble yourself something else, and accusing those who see right through you of juging. Simple ;0)

 

[cher99840]

Not sure how/if "defining" what a pilgrim is or if one is one equates with attributing worth in the scheme of the universe. I certainly have never even thought about linking the two. I just look at the Camino, its history, its rules and culture, and how those on that route behave against them while still patting themselves on the back and demanding to be considered a pilgrim. A person may be a turigrino and still be a most excellent human being; what I dislike is those who insist on disreagarding the rules, culture, etc., while accusing those who may be calling them on it of ""juging".

Nothing wrong being a tourist, just own it, don't try to labble yourself something else, and accusing those who see right through you of juging. Simple ;0)

What you said is perfectly true and spoken/written without rancor. Where I differ tho, is in making how they label themselves my business. I simply don't care how anyone portrays oneself.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Good for you, you are a better person than I am ;0) .

 

[VNwalking]

I prefer to mind my business. I'm a lot happier that way and so are the people around me.
My business is my responsibility. Other people's business is their responsibility.

That doesn't make me a doormat--or a helicopter.
It takes discernment--trying as best as I can (imperfectly) to know when it's useful and appropriate to say or do something and when it's not.

 

[C clearly]

d demanding to be considered a pilgrim. A person may be a turigrino and still be a most excellent human being; what I dislike is those who insist on disreagarding the rules, culture, etc., while accusing those who may be calling them on it of ""juging".

I completely agree. I just thought you went a bit far in your enthusiasm!

 

[trevorcc]

Please, Please.Please can we just accept each other and each others views there is a lot more important things to talk about, like how many people did you smile at today or how many did we offer help. If the CF is to busy or annoying there are a lot more Camino's to walk, I love reading the helpful Camino forum but we are getting very very thin skin of late. BUEN CAMINO

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I completely agree. I just thought you went a bit far in your enthusiasm!

I'll try to curb my enthousiasm and try to put on a goody two shoes air. ;0)

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Please, Please.Please can we just accept each other and each others views there is a lot more important things to talk about, like how many people did you smile at today or how many did we offer help. If the CF is to busy or annoying there are a lot more Camino's to walk, I love reading the helpful Camino forum but we are getting very very thin skin of late. BUEN CAMINO

You know, I have never felt the need to keep score of my good actions. Just thought it was something that came naturally or at least from a good upbrining. I also thought that one could ask or share what is on their mind on this forum and that one did not have to respond if not interested. Clearly the OP felt what he had to say was important, perhaps more than tallying his good deeds.

 

[domigee]

One thing that I don't like reading is when the Camino is described as 'super inexpensive'. For whom? I met many pilgrims who do not come from the US, Australia, Germany etc... Even an albergue is expensive when in your own country you can rent a whole luxurious house for 12 euros/night (if that) and a 9 euros pilgrim's menu is not cheap for EVERYONE.
Ok, it's cheaper for me (I live in England!) and I'm relatively 'well-off' but I do not represent the rest of the world.

 

[Kathor1]

I do not represent the rest of the world.

But don't you represent the majority? For every general observation, one can find counterexamples, often heart-tucking ones. Is there much doubt that the (comparatively low) cost factor is a major reason for the huge numbers of people on the Camino de Santiago and the effects this masificacion (not sure how to translate this, overcrowding does not have the same ring to it) brings with it?

 

[domigee]

But don't you represent the majority?

No I don't think so Katharina, on this forum yes, but not on the Camino - as I experienced it... To be fair, my husband walked it at a different time and met a very different crowd. April/may, mostly retired people... I walk in July/August, lots of (poor) students, people without jobs (esp. On the VdlP) and lots of people from not so well-off countries... Eye-opener.

And it isn't just the 'not so well off' countries.... I walked with people from the UK who couldn't afford the menu del dia - they didn't say so of course but... And people from France who camped and lived on pasta they cooked themselves....

 

[Kathor1]

@domigee: I had to go back to read the first message in the thread as I am sort of losing the line of discussion now .

The message is about the Camino Frances. About many people who are pre-booking accommodation by telephone, text, email and Booking.com, who are having their luggage shipped each day and carrying a small day sack, who are being dropped off and then picked up a few kilometres further along and then taken to a restaurant for lunch, who are being driven to their hotel for the evening. And about the number of new albergues and guest houses springing up all over the place and entrepreneurs seeking to make a quick Euro.

It's about change on the Camino Frances and in which ways this may or may not affect everyone on this camino, the one that is officially called the Camino de Santiago, the one with the most complete infrastructure for modern pilgrims and the one with the most preserved infrastructure of the medieval pilgrimage past; the most "natural" one to walk or travel for people from surrounding countries. Replies focus on the reasons for this change and how to deal with it.

It's also about the question of which external or internal elements characterise a real pilgrim which is a bit of an old chestnut for those who have asked themselves this question a long time ago but remains interesting for new pilgrims and other new travelers on that road.

 

[Kathor1]

@domigee : Sorry for my long reply which did not address the issue you raised. I think there is a difference between qualifying something as cheap/expensive and affordable/not affordable.

 

[domigee]

@domigee : Sorry for my long reply which did not address the issue you raised. I think there is a difference between qualifying something as cheap/expensive and affordable/not affordable.

Please don't apologise, I was going to myself!

So, apologies for going off on a tangent earlier.

In the end, I don't understand this concept of 'the camino isn't what it used to be' sort of thing because....I wasn't there at its beginnings...
Reading about it though, I gather mankind hasn't changed much or at all.
Rich people, poor people, sick people, people walking to honour a dead relative, people wanting to walk in the steps of Christ or his apostles, people just trying to escape from it all, crooks, honest people, convicts,....

Locals trying to make a fast buck: well, wasn't it always that way? And good, too because it gives us lodgings where they weren't enough.... No?
And food.

Oh and as for people who are transferred by taxi etc....In the Middle Ages, folks PAID (or bribed!) other people to walk it for them!

Buen camino to all

 

[Tia Valeria]

I am not sure where this thread is going. Some comments seem to be about defining a 'true pilgrim' which usually leads to grief. Being a pilgrim is a state of heart and mind, only truly known to the person concerned. The rest is how we arrive at the destination (Santiago) - by whatever method.
Respect for the people we meet and the country we walk through is just that, whether pilgrims or hikers/walkers/tourists.

The Camino 'identity' may, or may not, be affected by those following it and each Camino is different so IMO comparing the Frances with other Caminos merely emphasizes that.

 

[Jas Asyiken]

Interesting discussion. The Camino is in so many ways a simulation of Life as a Journey too. Many roads leading to one. As with life, we all come from different backgrounds, cultures, religions, even life objectives or purposes. In the end, we are all walking each other home, aren't we?

When we wake up each day, we look out at the world and we see everything - the good, bad and ugly. It's no different from the Camino. We can't change the world to suit all our whims and fancies.

Everyone will live however they choose to. It's their birth right, the free will, our birth gift. If people choose to crucify a good man, they will and they have done it too. What can you do to stop them? Instead maybe learn from that good man who once said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do". Be the person we wish to be in the world or on the Camino. Why not? After all we are still here, still have a chance to do what we feel is right for us.

 

[Christian Hiriart]

Camino is no longer what it used to be, this is the general lament. Personally I’m glad it changed and like everything in life is evolving, as change is the only constant in life. I can assure you that if the Camino to Santiago did not have the modern infrastructure it has today, many of us would not be walking it. At a time when the religions (all of them) are on the decline, wouldn’t you want as much exposure as you can possible get? I find extraordinary that a place attract so many worldwide, it would be hard to find a single nationality and culture which would not be represented in the Camino. Weather we do this walk for spiritual reason, going for a long walk or historical and intellectual enrichment, this place is bringing us together. If you believe in miracles, this cultural exchange is definitely one. let's stop judging people, we should welcome, understand and accept our differences which is the foundation of peace.

 

[Balazs Ullrich]

Well, I agree with David, and I experienced the same in my first Camino. I wanted to be a poor and humble pilgrim and I still looked down on a professional biker team, who seemed to be well-organised and rich. Yes, I just realised later that we are the same pilgrims en route to Compostela. And I must not judge what makes somebody a pilgrim (beacuse I do not know where people came from etc...)

However, I can imagine that makes Ianhooper sad... Maybe there are too many people, I do not know. At the same time, there are plenty of pilgrim ways throughout Europe. For example in my country (Hungary) six unfrequented routes offer a great opportunity of silent and undiscovered pilgrimage. I made one of them in 2013 - and it was wonderful! I think, people will discover their own "caminos" in their own country.

 

[Christian Hiriart]

Well, I agree with David, and I experienced the same in my first Camino. I wanted to be a poor and humble pilgrim and I still looked down on a professional biker team, who seemed to be well-organised and rich. Yes, I just realised later that we are the same pilgrims en route to Compostela. And I must not judge what makes somebody a pilgrim (beacuse I do not know where people came from etc...)

However, I can imagine that makes Ianhooper sad... Maybe there are too many people, I do not know. At the same time, there are plenty of pilgrim ways throughout Europe. For example in my country (Hungary) six unfrequented routes offer a great opportunity of silent and undiscovered pilgrimage. I made one of them in 2013 - and it was wonderful! I think, people will discover their own "caminos" in their own country.

Do those routes in Hungary have the same basic infrastructure, mainly albergues which make life so much easier.

Regards,
Chris

 

[Kathor1]

I downloaded the Kindle version of Elyn Aviva's "Following the Milky Way" a few days ago and had a quick read through it. Elyn Aviva and a friend walked/travelled from Roncesvalles to Santiago in the summer of 1982.

A hugely different experience from the modern Camino of 2016, or 2015, or 2014. There were no options to research on how to prepare physically or how to optimise your gear. Not enough albergues, bars and accommodation along the way. Note: not enough fullstop, no matter of the quality and price. Poorly marked "camino" paths, they often walked along the highways (unthinkable today), for example they walked on the road for cars when crossing the Alto del Perdon. In particular during the earlier part of the trek, local people did not look favourably on pilgrims.

They wanted to be real pilgrims in the sense of walking all the way but they had to resort to hitch-hiking and to taking buses - there weren't many - and taxis - not many either - because there was no other possibility to get accommodation; they did sleep rough from time to time. Would all of us want to move so far out of our comfort zone? I doubt it - and yes I have slept under the stars, it can be great if it is a choice and the weather is fine, but that isn't always the case. It makes you realise just how comfortable it is to walk today, thanks to the current Camino de Santiago infrastructure.

There is a description of the Cruz de Ferro. Maybe they should have put a fence around it a long time ago to keep everyone away and not just bikers as the OP suggests. It would have stayed what it was for centuries: a silent pile of local stones.

 

[David]

I suppose that the core of this thread is about nostalgia? and as we all know, even nostalgia isn't what it used to be

 

[domigee]

Not enough albergues, bars and accommodation along the way. Note: not enough fullstop, no matter of the quality and price. Poorly marked "camino" paths, they often walked along the highways (unthinkable today), for example they walked on the road for cars when crossing the Alto del Perdon. .

Sounds very like walking to Jerusalem

 

[NualaOC]

Interesting thread. After 5 days of heaven on the Camino del Baztan this month, I walked for three days on the Camino Frances, from Pamplona to Los Arcos. I hated the crowds and I was particularly irritated by the groups of power-walking tourigrinos. Basically, I was a very grumpy and intolerant person for much of the first day. Thankfully I was able to sort out my mindset and realise that none of these minor irritations were of any importance. In reality, nothing much had changed from when I walked this stretch in 2013. Yes, it was probably busier, but I was part of the crowds.

When I stopped thinking about myself and my expectations, everything settled into a much healthier rhythm. I just walked and everything was fine. On days 2 & 3, I chatted with some very interesting people along the way. I noticed the lone poppies in wheat fields, the nesting storks and the landscapes. I helped a few people with difficulties that they were having. I'm sure that all those things were there on Day 1, but I didn't seem to notice them.

Whatever we may think about how the Camino has 'developed', most of us would probably still love it if we were to walk for the first time in 2016. Maybe we just need to rediscover that beginner's mindset, or the rose tinted glasses that @biarritzdon describes. How other people walk their walk is not our concern.

 

[MichaelB10398]

Some of us will focus on the dirt around the roots, some will focus on the sharp thorns, and then some few will focus on the opening blossom. Which one will have the image of the rose in their minds eye for the rest of their life?

I still believe the Camino is a pilgrimage and will remain a pilgrimage even as many others join us on the Way having no spiritual reasons for being there. As they come I carry a prayer that their lives will be enhanced, that they will know peace and joy, and that they will find the ultimate reason the Camino exists today.

After that I just keep trying to put one foot in front of the other, discover new friends along the Way, and find the image of my Friend in each new person I meet.

The Camino remains.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Thank you all contributors for making this an interesting thread, and to the mods for not censoring us.

 

[VNwalking]

I suppose that the core of this thread is about nostalgia? and as we all know, even nostalgia isn't what it used to be

@David, I think you put your finger on it--at least for those of us who remember a 'different 'Camino.
What was, was--and now what is, is.
How do we relate to the experience of when something we love changes for the worse?
If we make the change the problem we're looking in the wrong place because there are no solutions there. Life only goes in one direction and that's forward. It puts us squarely in the place to either work with our 'stuff''around change or to make ourselves unhappy on account of what is just the way things are. And as (I think) Anemone said...sometimes we have to manage our expectations. It's not to excuse the idiotic things people can do but to understand that we belong to the same family of humankind and we need to cultivate kindness, inside and out--and deal with loss.
Grf. I'd sometimes rather complain.

Thank you all contributors for making this an interesting thread, and to the mods for not censoring us.

Yes, also from me.
My heart sank at first and I stayed away, imagining it was turning into the same old 'real pilgrim' discussion rehashed--but it didn't.

 

[Debora]

I have just completed my second Camino. My partner and I walked the Primitivo together last September, and I started the Camino Frances in late April, was joined by my partner in Leon in May and we finished it together in June.

However, I noticed a big difference between the two Camino's in that: on the Primitivo pilgrims were walking to the albergues and knocking on the doors to ask if there were any beds available. On the Frances many "pilgrims" were pre-booking accommodation by telephone, text, email and Booking.com often for days in advance. Many of these "pilgrims" were also having their luggage shipped each day and carrying a small day sack.

I also saw bus loads of "pilgrims" being dropped of and then picked up a few kilometres further along and then taken to a restaurant for lunch. After lunch they would be taken to another drop off point and picked up again a little further along before being driven to their hotel for the evening. These were clearly able bodied tourists.

Also, the number of new albergues and guest houses springing up all over the place as entrepreneurs seek to make a quick Euro out of the pilgrims purse.

Sadly I feel strongly that within a few years the Camino will be nothing more that a long distance holiday resort where tourists can get a certificate to prove that they've spent some time in Northern Spain.

I am extremely proud of my Compostelas, I have one already framed and I shall have the second one framed. I am now busy researching the Portuguese route.

I have one more negative comment, whilst my partner and I, accompanied by a lovely German lady, laid our stones on the pile at Cruz de Ferro we were disgusted to see a group of about eight selfish, Spanish cyclists ride their mountain bikes up to the top of the stone pile as though it was an extra hazard for them to enjoy. They then posed for photos holding their bikes aloft.

Many thousands of people have carried their stones from the four corners of the earth to place on the pile, often as a token of a loved or lost one. I personally would like to see some sort of fence around the pile so as to stop this unacceptable, egotistical, self-centred behaviour in the future.

I'm sorry to sound so negative but this is how I sometimes felt during my Camino. On my walk I met lots of wonderful people from many countries and for the most part of it I had a wonderful experience. If I was forty years younger I'd have a go at doing the Frances in both directions.

Let's not lose sight of what it's all about.

Buen Camino

Ian Hooper

I have just completed my second Camino. My partner and I walked the Primitivo together last September, and I started the Camino Frances in late April, was joined by my partner in Leon in May and we finished it together in June.

However, I noticed a big difference between the two Camino's in that: on the Primitivo pilgrims were walking to the albergues and knocking on the doors to ask if there were any beds available. On the Frances many "pilgrims" were pre-booking accommodation by telephone, text, email and Booking.com often for days in advance. Many of these "pilgrims" were also having their luggage shipped each day and carrying a small day sack.

I also saw bus loads of "pilgrims" being dropped of and then picked up a few kilometres further along and then taken to a restaurant for lunch. After lunch they would be taken to another drop off point and picked up again a little further along before being driven to their hotel for the evening. These were clearly able bodied tourists.

Also, the number of new albergues and guest houses springing up all over the place as entrepreneurs seek to make a quick Euro out of the pilgrims purse.

Sadly I feel strongly that within a few years the Camino will be nothing more that a long distance holiday resort where tourists can get a certificate to prove that they've spent some time in Northern Spain.

I am extremely proud of my Compostelas, I have one already framed and I shall have the second one framed. I am now busy researching the Portuguese route.

I have one more negative comment, whilst my partner and I, accompanied by a lovely German lady, laid our stones on the pile at Cruz de Ferro we were disgusted to see a group of about eight selfish, Spanish cyclists ride their mountain bikes up to the top of the stone pile as though it was an extra hazard for them to enjoy. They then posed for photos holding their bikes aloft.

Many thousands of people have carried their stones from the four corners of the earth to place on the pile, often as a token of a loved or lost one. I personally would like to see some sort of fence around the pile so as to stop this unacceptable, egotistical, self-centred behaviour in the future.

I'm sorry to sound so negative but this is how I sometimes felt during my Camino. On my walk I met lots of wonderful people from many countries and for the most part of it I had a wonderful experience. If I was forty years younger I'd have a go at doing the Frances in both directions.

Let's not lose sight of what it's all about.

Buen Camino

Ian Hooper

I just finished the Camino and when I was in Santiago I saw a fellow pilgrim and I was so happy and I said, "We did it!" and he said in reply, "No, you took a bus." I was crushed. I did take the bus and the reason doesn't matter...injury, illness, running out of time, whatever...but I walked 400 miles and that was "my camino". I felt at times that some people were too harsh and judgmental if you did things like send your pack ahead or "take a bus". I wasn't sure why that was happening. It's okay to have a different opinion or even to smile a little when you hear a pilgrim using a tour bus say, "I need to get on the bus and change into my other hiking shoes before it leaves." (which is something I heard)... but it takes maturity and love not to judge. It's a personal journey and how it's done is really no one's business but your own.

 

[Jas Asyiken]

I just finished the Camino and when I was in Santiago I saw a fellow pilgrim and I was so happy and I said, "We did it!" and he said in reply, "No, you took a bus." I was crushed. I did take the bus and the reason doesn't matter...injury, illness, running out of time, whatever...but I walked 400 miles and that was "my camino". I felt at times that some people were too harsh and judgmental if you did things like send your pack ahead or "take a bus". I wasn't sure why that was happening. It's okay to have a different opinion or even to smile a little when you hear a pilgrim using a tour bus say, "I need to get on the bus and change into my other hiking shoes before it leaves." (which is something I heard)... but it takes maturity and love not to judge. It's a personal journey and how it's done is really no one's business but your own.

@Debora Yes, you did it and "Well Done" and there's every reason to be proud. Many people, me included, are just waiting for the divine consent to get there to walk the path that you have walked, and hopefully learn from your experience too.

As for that remark made to you, that man has no clue what you went through. He can only comment about himself. Maybe he's struggling with some internal issues with regards to how others are doing it or maybe discontented with his own way of doing it against his ideals, all of which has nothing to do with you so don't take it at heart. Shit happens to people, sometimes to us too. What matter is, You Did it!! Yay!! Buen Camino!!

 

[Camino2010]

I just finished the Camino and when I was in Santiago I saw a fellow pilgrim and I was so happy and I said, "We did it!" and he said in reply, "No, you took a bus." I was crushed. I did take the bus and the reason doesn't matter...injury, illness, running out of time, whatever...but I walked 400 miles and that was "my camino". I felt at times that some people were too harsh and judgmental if you did things like send your pack ahead or "take a bus". I wasn't sure why that was happening. It's okay to have a different opinion or even to smile a little when you hear a pilgrim using a tour bus say, "I need to get on the bus and change into my other hiking shoes before it leaves." (which is something I heard)... but it takes maturity and love not to judge. It's a personal journey and how it's done is really no one's business but your own.

What a jerk-y thing of him to say! I hope he's had some time for sleep and food and reflection, to realise he would prefer to have said something different to you! Well done to you, you did it.

Hurray!!!

Rachel

 

[VNwalking]

I just finished the Camino and when I was in Santiago I saw a fellow pilgrim and I was so happy and I said, "We did it!" and he said in reply, "No, you took a bus." I was crushed.

You certainly did do it, Debora. Well done and congratulations! How many people do you know who have walked that far?
It's quite amazing, really.
As for the precious "I walked the whole way and you didn't" attitude...well, Jas is right:
What he said spoke volumes, not about you but about him.
I received a prayer card at the church in O Cebreiro and it applies:

The Prayer of La Faba
Although I may have travelled all the roads,
crossed mountains and valleys from East to West,
if I have not discovered the freedom to be myself,
I have arrived nowhere.

Although I may have shared all of my possessions
with people of other languages and cultures;
made friends with Pilgrims of a thousand paths,
or shared albergue with saints and princes,
if I am not capable of forgiving my neighbour tomorrow,
I have arrived nowhere.

Although I may have carried my pack from beginning to end
and waited for every Pilgrim in need of encouragement,
or given my bed to one who arrived later than I,
given my bottle of water in exchange for nothing;
if upon returning to my home and work,
I am not able to create brotherhood
or to make happiness, peace and unity,
I have arrived nowhere.

Although I may have had food and water each day,
and enjoyed a roof and shower every night;
or may have had my injuries well attended,
if I have not discovered in all that the love of God,
I have arrived nowhere.

Although I may have seen all the monuments
and contemplated the best sunsets;
although I may have learned a greeting in every language;
or tried the clean water from every fountain;
if I have not discovered who is the author
of so much free beauty and so much peace,
I have arrived nowhere.

If from today I do not continue walking on your path,
searching for and living according to what I have learned;
if from today I do not see in every person, friend or foe
a companion on the Camino;
if from today I cannot recognize God,
the God of Jesus of Nazareth
as the one God of my life,
I have arrived nowhere.

By this reckoning, he's got some walking to do before he finishes his Camino. You're home.