Is the Camino for the poor??

[RENSHAW]

Further more to my 'Beggar in Pamplona' Post ' I recall about 12 years ago a young man who was in his underwear fishing just after the well known Pamplona city bridge , the Gaurda took him away , obviously he was a 'vagrant' or was he?Hopefully he was taken out of town and sent on his way? He could have been from many countries away.
So often do we ask , where are the best albergues , the the best food. We spend hundreds of £ or $ for fights and we expect the 'tourist' experience , 20 years ago during my first camino it was a tad different , I just wonder if we have lost the plot?
It almost seems that those who do not have the means are vagabonds? Who is the Camino for!? Sharing and you may with pleasure come back to me.

 

[Robo]

It raises some interesting thoughts @RENSHAW .

'Tourist Experience'. I am sure there are a fair number of those on Camino, particularly in the latter stages.
From my experience though, most Pilgrims don't seem to be seeking this.
Many I think stay in Albergues for the 'shared experience' rather than economic necessity.
And I have seen little evidence of 'expecting' a tourist experience.

On a personal front, I tend to stay in fairly modest private accommodation, except for a splurge now again, maybe to stay in some interesting historical building like San Zoilo.

And then there are those with very limited means, who travel the Camino paths.

I have heard of them, but have never met any to be honest.

Some are probably genuine Pilgrims, whatever that means.

Some I have heard (on this Forum) almost live on the Camino, often through the generosity of others.

I would say the Camino is for everyone.
And is less about how much coin Pilgrims have in their pockets, and more about they have in their hearts and their motivation to walk the Camino.

Who are we to judge? I don't.

 

[mspath]

Indeed!
When weary after walking for 6 hours while carrying a pack all that was needed was a simple shelter with preferably a lower bunk for resting, working toilet, shower, and when possible pleasant companions and something to eat.
Nothing else was really necessary; luxury was clean hiking socks, heat in winter as well as an electric socket to charge a phone.

 

[Robo]

Indeed!

When weary after walking for 6 hours while carrying a pack all that is needed is a simple shelter with preferably a lower bunk for resting, working toilet, h shower, and when possible pleasant companions and something to eat. Nothing else is really necessary; luxury is heat in winter as well as an electric socket to charge a phone.

You sparked another thought.

Having stayed in a very wide range of accommodations.......

The price or the 'luxury' of the establishment in my experience has no relationship at all with the 'quality' of the experience.

My best quality experiences have almost always been in very modest accommodations, with hosts who were delightful, welcoming and helpful. Enhanced of course, if in some type of shared accommodation, by the company of very pleasant fellow Pilgrims.

Which may raise the question..........

Can money buy you a great Camino Experience?

No it can't. Like it can't buy you love.

..

 

[OZAJ]

The Camino is for everyone who can do it and for whatever reason they are wanting to do it.

I wonder whether the OP's question is really about intention and its role in "true pilgrimage", an expression I dislike. Who are the "true pilgrims" and who are the tourists, vagrants and lost souls? Well, they are all people and for many, life, with all its vicissitudes is a pilgrimage regardless of how they approach it.

Poor people can do the CF and probably any pilgrimage route if they are resourceful and not too fussy. I have met such people on various pilgrim routes. Some have travelled with very little money, like the elderly man I met in Italy who had walked from his home in central Spain to Santiago and was continuing to Rome. All his clothes and kit had been donated by well - wishers along the way. He was not a beggar.

 

[RENSHAW]

It raise some interesting thoughts @RENSHAW .
Some are probably genuine Pilgrims, whatever that means.
Who are we to judge? I don't.

I do appreciate your input @Robo , So what is a Genuine pilgrim , Well Firstly I would say spirituality , then Religion and even if it is a tourist experience , you may still find one of the two?

 

[OZAJ]

I do appreciate your input @Robo , So what is a Genuine pilgrim , Well Firstly I would say spirituality , then Religion and even if it is a tourist experience , you may still find one of the two?

Pepe, an experienced hospitalero I met on my first camino remarked that he had met a number of pilgrims who had started their camino as tourists, but whose experience had changed their intention.

How man people confuse, or equate the spiritual with the emotional and even the sentimental?

 

[RENSHAW]

The Camino is for everyone who can do it and for whatever reason they are wanting to do it.

I wonder whether the OP's question is really about intention and its role in "true pilgrimage", an expression I dislike. Who are the "true pilgrims" and who are the tourists, vagrants and lost souls? Well, they are all people and for many, life, with all its vicissitudes is a pilgrimage regardless of how they approach it.

Poor people can do the CF and probably any pilgrimage route if they are resourceful and not too fussy. I have met such people on various pilgrim routes. Some have travelled with very little money, like the elderly man I met in Italy who had walked from his home in central Spain to Santiago and was continuing to Rome. All his clothes and kit had been donated by well - wishers along the way. He was not a beggar.

@ OZAJ I think you may have misconstrued or seen some one else's comments? My comment never did say 'A true pilgrim' There is no question about this , My reason in posting is asking , The poor on the camino?

 

[OZAJ]

@ OZAJ I think you may have misconstrued or seen some one else's comments? My comment never did say 'A true pilgrim' There is no question about this , My reason in posting is asking , The poor on the camino?

No it didn't say "a true pilgrim".

I am surprised that you have to pay large sums for fights. After a few orujos, I can get plenty of fights for free!!

 

[RENSHAW]

@Robo either way , I do not think you can go wrong?

 

[RENSHAW]

No it didn't say "a true pilgrim".

I am surprised that you have to pay large sums for fights. After a few orujos, I can get plenty of fights for free!!

That's wonderful , so At last I have a sponsor to get me to the Camino , My flight will only cost €1000 euros from South Africa , I knew God will answer my prayers - WOW!! Thank you.

 

[Walkerooni]

I guess it depends what you mean by “the poor”? I expect it can be walked by any person of any means, but should they expect the same experience as someone with more means? Of course not. Do what you can given your means, but do not begrudge those who have different means. It will be your Camino!

 

[Robo]

I do appreciate your input @Robo , So what is a Genuine pilgrim , Well Firstly I would say spirituality , then Religion and even if it is a tourist experience , you may still find one of the two?

Let's not get into that debate @RENSHAW .
It never goes well.

And if we really start trying to specify what a true pilgrim is........I'm not sure we are true Pilgrims

But as you say, that wasn't the point of this thread.
It's........

Is the Camino for the poor??

...

 

[David]

Interesting. Historically pilgrimage has never been for the poor. In medieval times how would one even afford the boat fare? As for 'vagrants' appearing amongst the mix of pilgrims each year - well this should be expected ... in my country street beggars congregate in wealthy towns, they don't sit out in beautiful empty landscapes.

When on Camino register what most people are wearing - mainly designer hiking clothes and equipment, none of it cheap - and funnily enough, none of it needed either. But - this doesn't lessen whatever internal experience is taking shape, just the visual image of the pilgrim - we can never know what struggles may be happening inside.

For me? I try to buy clothes and kit either second-hand or cheap copies, I don't eat in expensive restaurants and my "where shall I sleep" is merely where I am when I stop for the day and preferably the cheapest.

You wrote "So often do we ask , where are the best albergues , the the best food. We spend hundreds of £ or $ for fights and we expect the 'tourist' experience" but this has no resonance with me, apart from the cost of flights (which I do not have to take, I don't fly) - I have never overheard any pilgrims having that sort of conversation.

I met a Brazilian man who had saved for eight years to be able to take his pilgrimage and it was a serious pilgrimage for him - he did not miss one church that was unlocked, he seemed to me to be in the present, taking every moment in. But was he 'poor'? He had a job, a home, a passport, he was on Camino in Spain ... you tell me.

You ask who is the Camino for ... well, I would say that it is for all who are called to go - and it doesn't matter why they think they go, nor what their economic status is, it is that they are called, don't you think?

and .... pilgrimage is not about you and other pilgrims and what they are like and how they Camino - there is a much more important relationship happening - Mother Teresa said it well I think .. is a good way to be on a pilgrimage - and, it is a pilgrimage you know.

 

[Walkerooni]

As someone from afar, it takes me minimally 4 days and thousands of dollars to get to the “start line”. I enjoy every step of the Camino. Should I be punished for my “excess”? I think not.

 

[malingerer]

Indeed!
When weary after walking for 6 hours while carrying a pack all that was needed was a simple shelter with preferably a lower bunk for resting, working toilet, shower, and when possible pleasant companions and something to eat.
Nothing else was really necessary; luxury was clean hiking socks, heat in winter as well as an electric socket to charge a phone.

How things change! Never needed a socket for a phone in the early years as I never used one! As I was moving on a daily basis , the pleasant companions were likewise something I took as I found. I think something changed when the REFUGIO which meant what it said, became an ALBERGUE and moved upmarket. Now of course the Moby goes where I go and due to age, deformity, infirmity, medication etc, its a room or nothing and I didn't say NO the first time I came across accommodation where there was a pool! I'm glad I started in 2003 however , when I was a mere 65 and it was an adventure for me before it became pilgrimage. That changed me forever and now I simply regard it all as the strands of a rope which bind together and one strand is of no more importance than another.

Walk soft.

Samarkand.

 

[RENSHAW]

Guys , I simply don't think we are there yet , I think that we are all have been so privileged that we cannot see just how hard it can be some people to fund themselves on the Camino.

 

[RENSHAW]

As someone from afar, it takes me minimally 4 days and thousands of dollars to get to the “start line”. I enjoy every step of the Camino. Should I be punished for my “excess”? I think not.

We still have to consider those that do not have the $1000 , those who have walked from home or those people who have so little , remember this is not pointing fingers at anybody , it is merely an exercise yet there seems to be a lot of underlying guilt?

 

[Turga]

Interesting question. I guess you could turn it around and ask ’Is there any reason to assume that the Camino is not for the poor?’

You mention how a ‘vagrant’ was being taken away because he was fishing from a city bridge in his underwear with the implication (?) that this happened because he was poor or a vagabond. Perhaps he was violating some local regulation, perhaps the same thing would have happened if he had been a wealthy person – rich people also do ‘weird things’.

Have we lost the plot? I believe the Camino is about what happens inside you when you walk. I guess that for some nothing happens and for some something happens and that this ratio is independent of financial status. If something do happen, it will probably be the same no matter if your wallet is slim or fat.

Can money buy you a great Camino Experience?

On a lighter note, a journalist once asked a wealthy, famous actor if she really thought money could buy happiness, to which she replied; “Young man, if you believe money can’t buy just anything, you’re shopping in the wrong places”

 

[David]

Guys , I simply don't think we are there yet , I think that we are all have been so privileged that we cannot see just how hard it can be some people to fund themselves on the Camino.

It is just that unless you live in Europe and can walk to Santiago from home you cannot be poor and go on Camino - the travel costs are way beyond the means of some 90% of the global population.
(If you live in a far land you cannot be 'eco' and go on pilgrimage in Spain either).

Also, although welcoming to all, it is worth remembering that the Caminos are pilgrim routes, Roman Catholic pilgrim routes to the shrine of a saint ... any other travel reason - technically - is tourism. Many Catholics of low means do indeed save for years and years to be able to go - I would call them poor.

As an aside. One of the Five Pillars of Islam is to make pilgrimage to Mecca "at least once in your lifetime" but here is the interesting thing - in Islam it is more virtuous not to go but to give the money you have raised to go to Mecca to someone at home who is poor and would never be able to go.

 

[Bradypus]

When weary after walking for 6 hours while carrying a pack all that was needed was a simple shelter with preferably a lower bunk for resting, working toilet, shower, and when possible pleasant companions and something to eat.

Bunk? Luxury! When I was a lad we used to have to sleep on bare floors. Concrete? If you were lucky - we had to sleep on beaten earth and cow dung. But we were happier in those days even though we had nothing...

 

[David]

Bunk? Luxury! When I was a lad we used to have to sleep on bare floors. Concrete? If you were lucky - we had to sleep on beaten earth and cow dung. But we were happier in those days even though we had nothing...

View attachment 116147

You were lucky!!

 

[Bristle Boy]

You were lucky!!

Very lucky.....could have been born "oop North".

 

[David Tallan]

I think the Camino has always been home to all types, rich and poor, true believers and tourists, those drawn to Santiago and those drawn to the ones drawn to Santiago, to support or prey on them. Like everything in life, it can be more difficult for the poor. But it is more accessible to the poor than many other things, especially with the presence of donativo offerings and the fact that walking is the cheapest form of transportation.

 

[SabsP]

Poverty means uncertainty about almost every aspect of life.
Poverty is making the heartbreaking choice between being able to buy a bread for feeding your family or spending it on something else as important.

Poverty is not only about the lack of money.
It is about dignity.
It is about being seen.
It is about sending your children to school with a full tummy and decent shoes.
The thin line between those who have and those who do not have.

I don ' t know why this thread bugs me so much. Maybe because I work with people , some of whom ( as an individual ) have a weekly budget to spend of 50 €. That covers their shopping budget, the occasional cigarette and not forgetting their personal hgiene.

 

[koknesis]

Obviously the Camino is for everyone! But there is another side of the coin. A pilgrim is expected to spend the money on the Camino. At least a donation.
Guess who has said “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”?

 

[BookGirl305]

I think there are also interpretations of "poor". In my country, poor people have apartments with electricity and air conditioning. There is always going to be a harsher definition of "poor" for any discussion. Likewise, I know people in my daily life who comment "wow, you must be doing well to travel internationally all the time" as they sit in the cab of their Chevy Silverado with the massage seats or spend $5000 for a week at Disney World. Not really, I just spend my money differently.

At home, a Hampton Inn costs $129/100E on the interstate to stop for the night. In Paris, I paid $110 a night for a reasonably safe and nice hotel. I am ecstatic about a 30E private room option. At home, a modest sit down restaurant is $20/17E. I am thrilled at a 12-15E menu del dia that includes wine. Some would say that's not an authentic pilgrim experience. and then we have things like this:
https://www.utracks.com/Spain/Guided-Walking/Food-Lovers-Spanish-Camino
15 days for $5700 for a culinary guided tour Camino.

There really are many ways to approach the Camino, aren't they?

 

[El Cascayal]

I resonate with what Sabine has written. The question I think is how does one define poor? Is it lack of financing, lack of opportunity temporary v. long term, is it entitlement and feeling superior to others who have less, is it richer nations v. those who never seem to get a break no matter how hard they try for whatever reason…”the poor, they are always with us” and what does this really mean in any single person’s reality?
Those who must fly to get to Spain some have saved and saved to be able to go, others have funds ready. All of these have a strong desire/spirit and the ability to make that choice.
Certainly in the Middle Ages, undertaking a pilgrimage was something else compared to today. No arrows, apps, safety, refuge…
Many questions, many answers, many Peregrinas/Peregrinos seeking what? Reasons as numerous as the stars, campo de estelas.

 

[Walter James Palmer]

I was blessed to meet 2 nuns on my first pilgrimage. A brief meeting, but they shared a thought that helped make my pilgrimage complete.

Their pilgrimage was opening the convent door and turning towards SdC - the rest, for them,was in God's hands. If He wanted them to be hit by a bus at the corner, their Pilgrimage was still complete.

I walked with my father's ashes and my mother's rosary. I hope I added to someone's pilgrimage, as the experience of travelling with them was powerful and I got a lot of questions about them.

We are all pilgrims, many different styles and shades and shapes. Tourist or Penitente, when we turn towards the goal, we become pilgrims.

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

@Robo has said it best, "Who are we to judge?"

No philosophies, no rules of the Camino. The Way is for everyone. Tourists usually pay for a packaged experience. The poor person may have to beg or ask for everything they need. It is a poor spirit that would judge anyone but especially those with little or nothing.

 

[PilgrimJames]

Further more to my 'Beggar in Pamplona' Post ' I recall about 12 years ago a young man who was in his underwear fishing just after the well known Pamplona city bridge , the Gaurda took him away , obviously he was a 'vagrant' or was he?Hopefully he was taken out of town and sent on his way? He could have been from many countries away.
So often do we ask , where are the best albergues , the the best food. We spend hundreds of £ or $ for fights and we expect the 'tourist' experience , 20 years ago during my first camino it was a tad different , I just wonder if we have lost the plot?
It almost seems that those who do not have the means are vagabonds? Who is the Camino for!? Sharing and you may with pleasure come back to me.

I saw a recent post a few days ago asking if May was a good month for a Camino vacation. Seriously. It is all things to all people. I happen to believe that it is a pilgrimage route. And very often people on a Camino 'vacation' discover the pilgrimage and spiritual aspect regardless of theiroriginal intent.
I had the pleasure of meeting a number of 'poor' pilgrims over the years. I am assuming you are referring to financially in need. I learned a lot from those encounters.
Sharing is a two way street.

 

[t2andreo]

I have read this entire thread - twice - with a high level of interest. My take on this issue is that poverty is at least partially a mental state.

Parenthetically - but related to the discussion - I suffer from lifelong moderate depression. One of the hallmarks of my specific diagnosis is a persistent condition called anhedonia. This is the inability to take or achieve joy or pleasure from everyday events or situations.

Intellectually, I might be pleased or satisfied that something went well, a crisis was averted, safety was reached or that someone else was happy. But, I am personally handicapped when it comes to deriving emotional or physical enjoyment.

My "happy meter" does not move beyond "meh." Most people's happiness ranges from abject misery to ebullient happiness and estatic, giddy pleasure. My meter goes from the cellar to around middle ground - or "meh." I live in a world of grey.

Does this make me "poor" when it comes to the Camino? Yes, it does according to my way of thinking. I am blessed with adequate resources to come and go more or less as I please, but, my lifelong condition (even with medication) precludes from enjoying the experience as others might do. However, it does not prevent me from returning again and again to walk Camino or to volunteer to help others.

"It is in giving that we receive," according to Saint Francis. That is how I create personal pseudo enjoyment and as much satisfaction - I help others. I try to make another person's situation better, so that they might derive pleasure. Objectively, I should derive pleasure from these activities. But the best I can do is be satisfied. My purpose is to help others out of their poverty of spirit, and to some extent to achieve a successful result on a Camino.

I make an effort daily to not judge another's motivation, financial standing or social standing when on Camino. We are all equal - pilgrims seeking one goal - Santiago.

One can can have abundant wealth - have more money than brains - and still suffer from poverty of the spirit. Conversely, one can be materially poor and overflowing with riches of the spirit.

I suggest that the "optimum" paradigm when evaluating the question of whether the Camino is for poor people is to adopt the first rule of the Camino: "Everyone does their own Camino. No one has the standing to question how (or why) a person chooses to accomplish their personal Camino."

Our role as fellow pilgrims is (IMHO) to support, encourage, nurture and assist other pilgrims we encounter. If they need help, we ought to help to the extent we can. This is a corollary of the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I have walked with and shared with people from all over the world and from all backgrounds. I like to think that I treat all I meet equally, with dignity and compassion. All I expect is reciprocal treatment. So far, over nearly nine years and six Caminos, that has not been an issue. I always end a Camino a better human being than when I started.

I hope this helps, and that I have not strayed too far off piste, or inadvertently hijacked this thread.

Tom

 

[Robi Diaz De Vivar]

Further more to my 'Beggar in Pamplona' Post ' I recall about 12 years ago a young man who was in his underwear fishing just after the well known Pamplona city bridge , the Gaurda took him away , obviously he was a 'vagrant' or was he?Hopefully he was taken out of town and sent on his way? He could have been from many countries away.
So often do we ask , where are the best albergues , the the best food. We spend hundreds of £ or $ for fights and we expect the 'tourist' experience , 20 years ago during my first camino it was a tad different , I just wonder if we have lost the plot?
It almost seems that those who do not have the means are vagabonds? Who is the Camino for!? Sharing and you may with pleasure come back to me.

I have the feeling that this is a before and after issue. Before the pandemic it was my experience that, by staying in municipal and parochial albergues, cheap and donativos, and taking advantage of peregrino menus, it was possible walk the Camino on restricted means - I know, I had them. In the new normal it seems that we will be staying in a lot less cheap accommodation and no doubt a lot of small bars in small villages will have gone bust or really, really struggled and in the new world meal prices have got to go up. It would be an absolute tragedy if the Camino became the resort of touregrinos walking their 10 km a day before going on to their next 5 star hotel by air-conditioned coach. We will just have to wait and see.

 

[Albertagirl]

I have met poor people on camino. Two I was able to help. A third was poor: she had no home and lived in a tent along the way. I met her going south in the winter to avoid the cold. But she had a modest income and did not beg. The other two were destitute and also travelled in autumn to avoid the winter cold: the man to Santiago, where he may have spent the winter in a shelter. He lied to me about everything, so his real condition and plans were unknown to me. The second woman walked with me for a few days and was very reluctant to accept money, although I could share my food with her. I was permitted to give her a little cash, if I put it in her backpack and she did not know how much it was.
I learned a lot from each of them. In particular, as a woman travelling alone, I would be very reluctant to ever give money to a male pilgrim again. However I was manoeuvred into it, the result was that he followed me much of the way to Santiago trying to get me to support him. The last time that I saw him was in the chapel at the Pilgrim Office in Santiago, which I decided not to enter to avoid another encounter.
Both the women were going their own way. I met the destitute woman for the last time when staying in a Xunta albergue, where she had gone on a rainy night. She told me that she still had some of the money I had given her, so had chosen the albergue to get out of the rain, as she could not find a shelter along the way which did not leak. She did not have a credencial, but had been accepted anyway. The man had also been accepted, and fed, in the Xunta albergue at Cea. This was new information for me about how Spanish albergues cared for the poor on the road to Santiago. Coming from a middle-class background, these encounters educated me about one aspect of social conditions in Spain. The pilgrim Way provides walking routes for the very poor in Spain, who follow them as part of their effort to survive.

 

[Bradypus]

Coming from a middle-class background, these encounters educated me about one aspect of social conditions in Spain. The pilgrim Way provides walking routes for the very poor in Spain, who follow them as part of their effort to survive.

The Buddhist 88 temple circuit on Shikoku is also 'home' to a number of homeless perpetual pilgrims who are supported by local people with gifts of food and basic shelter for the night. I was fortunate to share space and food overnight with two such men during my own journey around the island.

 

[malingerer]

Guys , I simply don't think we are there yet , I think that we are all have been so privileged that we cannot see just how hard it can be some people to fund themselves on the Camino.

I only managed to fund my self by begging of friends,. bouncing the credit card, the overdraft and the bank loan. My bank loan finally bites the dust, end of March. For me the funding has been bloody hard. And it has been so since 2003. Guess what, I will do it all over again, God, the bank manager and the bookies willing

Buen Camino

Samarkand.

 

[C clearly]

I don ' t know why this thread bugs me so much. Maybe because...

Let me count the ways...

My comment never did say 'A true pilgrim'

True. But in post #6 you referred to "genuine pilgrim." The difference escapes me.

I think that we are all have been so privileged that we cannot see just how hard it can be some people to fund themselves on the Camino.

Yes, most of us are privileged in the large scheme of the world. I am very well aware of how hard it can be for some people to fund their Caminos. However, the vast majority of the poor have far more pressing challenges than how to get to Spain.

 

[RENSHAW]

@ malingerer Thank God that someone has been there and gives credits . but you are the chosen one?

 

[Rex]

Poverty can be economic or emotional or intellectual or spiritual... most pilgrims I've met seem to be walking to address some combination of the latter three types of poverty, but rarely are truly in economic poverty.
Over the years, I've observed that material success/excess makes it more likely that humans will be afflicted by one of the latter three types of poverty. Just an observation and a bit of personal confession.
I am always happy to contribute to the coffers of those suffering from economic poverty on Camino, as they often lead lives that are rich in ways that I can't comprehend. Bless them all.
It would be a tragedy if COVID has transformed future Caminos into vacations for only the well to do among us.

Buen Camino

 

[malingerer]

@ malingerer Thank God that someone has been there and gives credits . but you are the chosen one?

tell that to the bookies

I spend a whole fifty two pennies a time and they know my numbers off by heart

walk soft stay safe and buen camino

Samarkand.

 

[C clearly]

@ malingerer Thank God that someone has been there and gives credits . but you are the chosen one?

I really do not understand what you are trying to say. I cannot make the connection between the guy fishing in his underwear, the fact that many people have to budget very carefully in order to fund their Caminos, and how I could put my guilt to constructive use.

 

[Stivandrer]

Amongst equals, you yourself do not feel poor, even if the comparison of numbers might indicate this, somehow...

when do you feel like a pilgrim..?

only after finishing your first Camino experience, and evaluating if this was important to you after all you have been through, and then after all your endless soul searching, will you venture to call yoursel a pilgrim if at all....

it is not nescessarily a thing to be flashed, or to confess to, merely but a private joy to cherish....

 

[FeatherG]

I have read this entire thread - twice - with a high level of interest. My take on this issue is that poverty is at least partially a mental state.

Parenthetically - but related to the discussion - I suffer from lifelong moderate depression. One of the hallmarks of my specific diagnosis is a persistent condition called anhedonia. This is the inability to take or achieve joy or pleasure from everyday events or situations.

Intellectually, I might be pleased or satisfied that something went well, a crisis was averted, safety was reached or that someone else was happy. But, I am personally handicapped when it comes to deriving emotional or physical enjoyment.

My "happy meter" does not move beyond "meh." Most people's happiness ranges from abject misery to ebullient happiness and estatic, giddy pleasure. My meter goes from the cellar to around middle ground - or "meh." I live in a world of grey.

Does this make me "poor" when it comes to the Camino? Yes, it does according to my way of thinking. I am blessed with adequate resources to come and go more or less as I please, but, my lifelong condition (even with medication) precludes from enjoying the experience as others might do. However, it does not prevent me from returning again and again to walk Camino or to volunteer to help others.

"It is in giving that we receive," according to Saint Francis. That is how I create personal pseudo enjoyment and as much satisfaction - I help others. I try to make another person's situation better, so that they might derive pleasure. Objectively, I should derive pleasure from these activities. But the best I can do is be satisfied. My purpose is to help others out of their poverty of spirit, and to some extent to achieve a successful result on a Camino.

I make an effort daily to not judge another's motivation, financial standing or social standing when on Camino. We are all equal - pilgrims seeking pone goal - Santiago.

One can can have abundant wealth - have more money than brains - and still suffer from poverty of the spirit. Conversely, one can be materially poor and overflowing with riches of the spirit.

I suggest that the "optimum" paradigm when evaluating the question of whether the Camino is for poor people is to adopt the first rule of the Camino: "Everyone does their own Camino. NO one has the standing to question how (or why) a person chooses to accomplish their personal Camino."

Our role as fellow pilgrims is (IMHO) to support, encourage, nurture and assist other pilgrims we encounter. If they need help, we ought to help to the extent we can. This is a corollary of the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I have walked with and shared with people from all over the world and from all backgrounds. I like to think that I treat all I meet equally, with dignity and compassion. All I expect is reciprocal treatment. So far, over nearly nine years and six Caminos, that has not been an issue. I always end a Camino a better human being than when I started.

I hope this helps, and that I have not strayed too far off piste, or inadvertently hijacked this thread.

Tom

Hi Tom, thank you for your honest contribution. I have never heard of your particular 'condition', but I have to say, of all the narratives I've read from fellow Caminoers, yours really touched my soul, & I truly believe we could all learn from you. Thank you, not only for sharing your views, outlook & 'way', but also the generosity you show & kindness you share, with those you meet on your 'way'. I'm sorry you don't 'get' anything in return, as regards a 'good feeling' when you help someone or even a 'great feeling' when you 'make someone's day'. Please don't give up. I cannot believe there is no 'reward' for all your kindness over the years & I really hope that there will be a cure for your rare condition, and you will one day, soon, feel the gratitude & elation, for all your good deeds. You're my definition of a true pilgrim & anyone who crosses your path should be honoured. We all have a purpose in life. Some of us find our purpose earlier than others. I pray that all the good you have done over the years will be rewarded soon & you will be relieved of this unusual condition. I ask your angels to continue to guide you on your 'way' & give you the resilience & hope to believe that 'your day will come'. In the meantime I send you this old Irish Blessing: 'May the road rise to meet you; May the wind be always at your back; May the sun shine warm upon your face; the rain fall soft upon your fields, & until we meet (again), May God hold you in the palm of His hand'. Take care Tom & God Bless You!

 

[wayfarer]

My touchstone is "A tourist complains, a pilgrim gives thanks."

I don't buy into this at all, I think its a phrase someone uses to excuse bad service, whether you are a tourist or a pilgrim you are entitled to good service for your hard earned money, which for some of us is a modest pension. Saying if you complain you are no longer a pilgrim but a dreaded tourist is just a cop out IMO.

 

[C clearly]

Regarding the saying that a pilgrim gives thanks and a tourist complains.. The reminder to give thanks (i.e. to see the glass as half-full) is good, but it is a bit of an insult to the many thankful tourists out there. It illustrates that the difference between a tourist and a pilgrim is not so easily judged, and the judgement doesn't serve much purpose.

 

[Albertagirl]

The reminder to give thanks is good, but it is a bit of an insult to the many thankful tourists out there. It illustrates that the difference between a tourist and a pilgrim is not so easily judged, and the judgement doesn't serve much purpose.

I have felt this way since comments of this sort were being made when I joined the forum, prior to my first camino. My boss at work went on a bus tour, including Santiago on the itinerary. As a Roman Catholic priest and a wonderful human being, he might well know a lot more about being a pilgrim than I shall ever know. Many pilgrims go to Santiago on bus tours or private pilgrimages by car, and other travellers may become pilgrims as they visit the holy sites in Europe and elsewhere, even as some walking tourists may.

 

[C clearly]

I am also guilty of contributing to this, but we are diverging from the thread topic of "the poor on the Camino" and getting into other criteria for defining pilgrims.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

The camino is not for the poor.

Some reminder of what being poor really means. You struggle to have a place to live. You struggle to have enough money to eat. You struggle to get the basic necessities of life. That’s poor.

If you don’t have food insecurity, and you have a comfortable secure place to live with indoor plumbing, you’re not poor.

Most truly Poor people couldn’t even conceive of doing something like go walk the camino, Whether they live in Europe or the Americas.

In the United States, being poor and homeless is basically illegal. And you’re treated as such. As a criminal. As possibly was the man in his underwear fishing.

Of course, I’m sure some people who actuallyare poor do end up walking the Camino, through a great effort of will and with the kindness of other pilgrims. But it wouldn’t be easy.

Also, sometimes being a vagabond can be a choice. Some of those people might walk the Camino.

 

[Former member 99290]

I don ' t know why this thread bugs me so much.

I'm also bothered by this thread. Surely there can be no argument about the Camino being for anyone and everyone who is drawn to it. But that is not the same as saying it is a realistic possibility for all. Far from it, I'd say.

If the topic is regarding the economically poor, surely the vast majority (ALL?) on this forum are truly blessed to have the time and resources (financial and otherwise) to even contemplate such an undertaking - once in a lifetime, let alone repeatedly. To me, it feels like a great luxury to be in that position. To even have the time and resources to theorise about it on an online forum feels a bit off - yet here I am saying my piece.

As to being scammed by 'beggars' on the Camino or elsewhere, I don't mind that (though I would not want to be followed as @Albertagirl was). I am sure that, whatever the circumstances or motivation, most people would not choose to sit on the street asking strangers for money or food - with all that entails - if they could realise a better option. For the vast majority it is a question of survival for themselves and quite often their families as well.

So, yes, in theory the Camino is for the poor, but an impossibility for most.

 

[bergmannfamily]

This may be hijacking the thread somewhat, so ignore if you like.

Poor folks have a difficult time making it to the camino to walk the camino, but the camino is surrounded by poor people who are living their lives on and around the camino, but as pilgrims in their land our lives intersect with them, and how we view them and treat them speaks volumes about us as pilgrims. This was brought home to me about four years ago when we were in Madrid. We were walking up to the Almudena Cathedral when I saw a street person sleeping on a park bench. When we got closer I saw that it was a bronze piece of public art of a street person sleeping on a park bench. Upon arriving at the bench I noticed there was only one piece of the person's body sticking out from the bronze blanket. It was their foot, and the person's foot had the distinct mark of a nail hole. I just stood there and cried about how many times I have seen a street person and failed to see how that person was Christ among us. I am not trying to be sanctimonious, but we need to keep our eyes open for those around us who are hurting and are poor in finances and poor in spirit. No matter where we come from, or how we do the camino, we are potentially another person's light and hope by how we interact with them.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

In my country, poor people have apartments with electricity and air conditioning

I imagine that they must be ever so grateful for that.

I am a little surprised though, what category do you put people who live in their cars or on the street in?

 

[Roland49]

Sharing and you may with pleasure come back to me.

I don't think, that we lost anything. The (a) Camino is for anyone. If rich or poor or anything in between, if a genius or simple minded. I think the Camino you walk will catch you in some meaning, sometimes it's religious, sometimes it's spritual and sometimes it's just for the sake of it.

Personally I had to plan ahead just for the reason that I had set a humble monetary limit for my Camino.
I could have spent more, but I wanted to walk in most original way. From Albergue to Albergue. Chatting with fellow pilgrims, enjoying the changing landscapes and food.

I didn't met real beggars, but I invited pilgrims to a pilgrim's menue 2 times and helped cooking a communal dinner 3 times and gave away some medical stuff to pilgrims in need.

BC
Roland

 

[taigirl]

The cost of flights from non European countries could make it out of the reach of the financially challenged.

Further more to my 'Beggar in Pamplona' Post ' I recall about 12 years ago a young man who was in his underwear fishing just after the well known Pamplona city bridge , the Gaurda took him away , obviously he was a 'vagrant' or was he?Hopefully he was taken out of town and sent on his way? He could have been from many countries away.
So often do we ask , where are the best albergues , the the best food. We spend hundreds of £ or $ for fights and we expect the 'tourist' experience , 20 years ago during my first camino it was a tad different , I just wonder if we have lost the plot?
It almost seems that those who do not have the means are vagabonds? Who is the Camino for!? Sharing and you may with pleasure come back to me.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Whilst this is major talking point on the Forum it will never be answered to all "pilgrims" satisfaction.
As usual David raised a number succinct of points.
Moderators maybe time to call a halt!!??

 

[PilgrimJames]

The camino is not for the poor.

Some reminder of what being poor really means. You struggle to have a place to live. You struggle to have enough money to eat. You struggle to get the basic necessities of life. That’s poor.

If you don’t have food insecurity, and you have a comfortable secure place to live with indoor plumbing, you’re not poor.

Most truly Poor people couldn’t even conceive of doing something like go walk the camino, Whether they live in Europe or the Americas.

In the United States, being poor and homeless is basically illegal. And you’re treated as such. As a criminal. As possibly was the man in his underwear fishing.

Of course, I’m sure some people who actuallyare poor do end up walking the Camino, through a great effort of will and with the kindness of other pilgrims. But it wouldn’t be easy.

Also, sometimes being a vagabond can be a choice. Some of those people might walk the Camino.

Wow!

 

[wayfarer]

The aspiration is that the Camino is for everyone rich and poor but the reality is that it is only achievable to those who can afford it and it has always been such I imagine.

 

[BookGirl305]

I imagine that they must be ever so grateful for that.

I am a little surprised though, what category do you put people who live in their cars or on the street in?

(smile) which is why I also said there will always be a harsher definition of poor. There is no way to quantify that word. All we can do is use various perspectives.

 

[henrythedog]

This may be hijacking the thread somewhat, so ignore if you like.

Poor folks have a difficult time making it to the camino to walk the camino, but the camino is surrounded by poor people who are living their lives on and around the camino, but as pilgrims in their land our lives intersect with them, and how we view them and treat them speaks volumes about us as pilgrims. This was brought home to me about four years ago when we were in Madrid. We were walking up to the Almudena Cathedral when I saw a street person sleeping on a park bench. When we got closer I saw that it was a bronze piece of public art of a street person sleeping on a park bench. Upon arriving at the bench I noticed there was only one piece of the person's body sticking out from the bronze blanket. It was their foot, and the person's foot had the distinct mark of a nail hole. I just stood there and cried about how many times I have seen a street person and failed to see how that person was Christ among us. I am not trying to be sanctimonious, but we need to keep our eyes open for those around us who are hurting and are poor in finances and poor in spirit. No matter where we come from, or how we do the camino,View attachment 116181 we are potentially another person's light and hope by how we interact with them.

That’s a remarkable sculpture and - if ‘art’ is that which makes you think - a great piece of art.

I try not to be sanctimonious, I’m socially liberal and give fairly freely to charity (none of which I claim makes me ‘good’ in any way) and I pretty much always give financially to folk on the street; albeit against the advice of many.

Having engaged in long conversations with some of those to whom I have offered support over the years I’m certain that I have not yet personally encountered the Almighty.

 

[JCarpenter]

That’s a remarkable sculpture and - if ‘art’ is that which makes you think - a great piece of art.

I try not to be sanctimonious, I’m socially liberal and give fairly freely to charity (none of which I claim makes me ‘good’ in any way) and I pretty much always give financially to folk on the street; albeit against the advice of many.

Having engaged in long conversations with some of those to whom I have offered support over the years I’m certain that I have not yet personally encountered the Almighty.

Perhaps you weren't looking?

 

[alexwalker]

The aspiration is that the Camino is for everyone rich and poor but the reality is that it is only achievable to those who can afford it and it has always been such I imagine.

The Camino is for all. Costs are relative to your well-being, doing it. For me, I return home with more money than when I left, bc Spain is a lowcost country compared to my own.

On another note, the personal value of walking a Camino can not be measured in money, IMHO. But it takes some walking time to understand that.

 

[Kathor1]

Having engaged in long conversations with some of those to whom I have offered support over the years I’m certain that I have not yet personally encountered the Almighty.

That is funny and made me giggle.

You know of course, I guess, that the bronze sculpture of the figure on the bench, the Homeless Jesus, on display in a number of cities around the world (about 40 it seems), is a "visual translation" of a well-known passage in the Bible where Jesus says to his disciples that "as you did it to one of the least of my brothers, you did it to me" - a basic tenet of Christian charity.

 

[OTH86]

Who is the Camino for?

The Camino is for everyone - no labels... because none of us really know anything about what other people have, and are going thru to arrive on Camino...

 

[RENSHAW]

Guys , this question is merely to make one think , how privileged are we ? Yes , you may have saved for 10 years but you do get Pilgrims who cannot save?

 

[Richmond Gardner]

It raise some interesting thoughts @RENSHAW .

'Tourist Experience'. I am sure there are a fair number of those on Camino, particularly in the latter stages.
From my experience though, most Pilgrims don't seem to be seeking this.
Many I think stay in Albergues for the 'shared experience' rather than economic necessity.
And I have seen little evidence of 'expecting' a tourist experience.

On a personal front, I tend to stay in fairly modest private accommodation, except for a splurge now again, maybe to stay in some interesting historical building like San Zoilo.

And then there are those with very limited means, who travel the Camino paths.

I have heard of them, but have never met any to be honest.

Some are probably genuine Pilgrims, whatever that means.

Some I have heard (on this Forum) almost live on the Camino, often through the generosity of others.

I would say the Camino is for everyone.
And is less about how much coin Pilgrims have in their pockets, and more about they have in their hearts and their motivation to walk the Camino.

Who are we to judge? I don't.

I’m going to disagree about why people stay in Albergues. Certainly, camaraderie is part of it- but I would not say that economics are irrelevant. Many mostly younger folks, can only afford to stay in albergues and there are several varieties offering different options. Starting with donativos at the lowest cost end, then municipals and finally privates - all are cheaper than a hostal or hotel room. I met many pilgrims who only stayed in albergues and who were obviously on a budget.

 

[RENSHAW]

Before this thread is closed . I would Like a comment from Ivan , you have the a similar wisdom

 

[Robo]

I’m going to disagree about why people stay in Albergues. Certainly, camaraderie is part of it- but I would not say that economics are irrelevant. Many mostly younger folks, can only afford to stay in albergues and there are several varieties offering different options. Starting with donativos at the lowest cost end, then municipals and finally privates - all are cheaper than a hostal or hotel room. I met many pilgrims who only stayed in albergues and who were obviously on a budget.

I only said that I thought 'many' stayed in Albergues for the shared experience. (Not all)
Others obviously for budget reasons.

Though as we know, a very modest private room (for 2), can often be a similar cost to 2 beds in a Private Albergue.

..

 

[Robo]

Back to the initial question.

Is the Camino for the poor?

(And I think we all took this to mean, are the poor 'able' to walk a Camino.....)

Surely those with limited or no means can?
There are Donativo Albergues, some that offer meals.
(aren't they are Donativo for a reason?)
There is the charity of other Pilgrims along the way that we hear of.

Not easy I'm sure, but possible surely?

Do the poor 'choose' to walk the Camino?
That's another question entirely.

I would suggest only those able to travel to a Camino at minimal or zero cost.
This might mean only those living in Western Europe for example.

And I imagine it might be quite an intimidating thing to attempt.

Knowing that one would need to seek out only Donativos and the charity of others.

Many might find the idea a challenge not worth exposing themselves to?

But it's an interesting discussion and if nothing else, has maybe caused some of us to think a bit about those less fortunate that we may come across on our next Camino.

...

 

[Jodean]

I stay in albergues and eat the pilgrim menu because I am on a budget. Fortunately, I live in Germany, so getting to the Camino is not expensive. I feel lucky that I can go and do this walk and if emergencies come up or I feel like splurging one night in a hotel, that it is possible. So not broke, but definitely frugal and budget-minded. Yes, this is a vacation for me. A long, but cheap vacation and I want to go every year if possible. At 66, I will continue to carry my own pack because spending 5€ a day to send it forward feels like wasted money to me. I am worried about going in April, that the cheap albergues will be closed or there won't be enough space, or that prices will have increased too much.

To counter the comment about beggars on the street not wanting to be there. My son has decided that begging is the smarter way to earn money than collecting bottles from trash cans and getting the deposits back. He would rather do that than go to a dr. to get well. We cannot understand how the minds of the mentally ill work. It is all very sad.

 

[RENSHAW]

@Robo you as well as I would have funded a night for a pilgrim in need no doubt

 

[Robo]

@Robo you as well as I would have funded a night for a pilgrim in need no doubt

I'm sure many Forum members have...

 

[Former member 99290]

To counter the comment about beggars on the street not wanting to be there. My son has decided that begging is the smarter way to earn money than collecting bottles from trash cans and getting the deposits back. He would rather do that than go to a dr. to get well. We cannot understand how the minds of the mentally ill work. It is all very sad.

So sorry to read this ... and it's so true that mental illness is often a factor in the lives of people 'on the street' or in fact in all manner of circumstances - debilitated by an illness or injury we can't 'see'. Sending good wishes.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I think there are also interpretations of "poor". In my country, poor people have apartments with electricity and air conditioning.

I don’t know where you live in the States, and I’m not sure what your experience is with, but , I’ve seen people living in much worse conditions than what you describe (in the USA). In big cities, in rural areas, all over. Sometimes their own fault, but often not.

I would describe people who have a decent apartment and can afford to pay an electric bill with air-conditioning as low income.

 

[isawtman]

I hate to break you guys away from the topic of poor people. But, I am wondering
if having a bed every night while hiking is going to feel like a major luxury
to me. I have done several backpacking trips over the years where I sleep in
a tent with a sleeping pad. The luxury also comes in the form of a lighter backpack
because I don't need to bring a tent, backpacking stove, 5 days of food, etc.
So, to me, just having a mat to sleep on in even the most barren alburgue will
seem really great

 

[Albertagirl]

I hate to break you guys away from the topic of poor people. But, I am wondering
if having a bed every night while hiking is going to feel like a major luxury
to me. I have done several backpacking trips over the years where I sleep in
a tent with a sleeping pad. The luxury also comes in the form of a lighter backpack
because I don't need to bring a tent, backpacking stove, 5 days of food, etc.
So, to me, just having a mat to sleep on in even the most barren alburgue will
seem really great

I've done a lot of mountain backpacking over the years and I agree that the lighter weight of a camino backpack is much less of a burden. But if you like sleeping in quiet solitude, if you like the fresh mountain air and the high country scenery, you will acknowledge that there are unique delights in both types of experience.

 

[isawtman]

I'm not expecting pristine conditions on the camino. It will be a different scenario than backpacking in the wilds

 

[Robo]

I'm not expecting pristine conditions on the camino. It will be a different scenario than backpacking in the wilds

Like chalk and cheese

Both involve some walking. That's about it I think.

 

[Trude]

Further more to my 'Beggar in Pamplona' Post ' I recall about 12 years ago a young man who was in his underwear fishing just after the well known Pamplona city bridge , the Gaurda took him away , obviously he was a 'vagrant' or was he?Hopefully he was taken out of town and sent on his way? He could have been from many countries away.
So often do we ask , where are the best albergues , the the best food. We spend hundreds of £ or $ for fights and we expect the 'tourist' experience , 20 years ago during my first camino it was a tad different , I just wonder if we have lost the plot?
It almost seems that those who do not have the means are vagabonds? Who is the Camino for!? Sharing and you may with pleasure come back to me.

I know a few millionaires who have walked and enjoyed the experience of Albergues, it’s open to everyone from all walks of life.

 

[dagreen]

The Camino can be done with very little if one especially if the person is from Spain or France. One just had to accept many hardships. I have attached a link to a series of videos showing a young man walk from Roncevalles to Santiago with less than 20 euros in his pocket.
El Camino de Santiago sin nada

 

[good_old_shoes]

Difficult topic.

There are different definitions of being poor. Some seem to think that you need to be homeless, dressed in rags, and begging for money and food to fit the description. But that's a stereotype probably based on the definition of "absolute poverty".

More common in western Europe is "relative poverty". You might have met several pilgrims who fit the definition of "relative poverty" without even knowing.

Those who walk from home with a tent or arrive in spain by long distance bus from a nearby country don't need much money for their travels. If you're poor at home, you know how to get by with very little money on the camino too. I think it is more difficult to imagine walking as a poor person (I am talking relative poverty here) if you're financally well off, than it is for the actual pilgrim on a very tight budget.

From where I live, a bus ticket to the french/spanish border isn't much more than 50Euros...10-15Euros/day (cheapest albergues only plus simple supermarket food) is affordable for even someone relatively poor, if you plan well, without need to beg for money or shelter.

The diversity of people walking is what makes the camino so special for me, and the conversations with the other pilgrims so enriching. At home, most people tend to stay within their own "social bubble". On the camino people with all kinds of backgrounds (including financial) come together, but instead of focussing on their differences, have a common goal. There are more important things to discuss at the dinner table or while walking than social status, how much money there is in your bank account ect. (like blisters, weather, purpose of life...).

I just hope that the camino stays open for everyone, even after the pandemic, and that the concept of affordable, simple shelters including true donativos stays alive. It would be sad if there were only well-off pilgrims staying in hotels left some day...

 

[Kathor1]

So often do we ask , where are the best albergues , the the best food. We spend hundreds of £ or $ for fights and we expect the 'tourist' experience , 20 years ago during my first camino it was a tad different , I just wonder if we have lost the plot?
It almost seems that those who do not have the means are vagabonds? Who is the Camino for!? Sharing and you may with pleasure come back to me.

I’m not sure that I actually understand your question or premise.

Many comments are mainly a reply to the thread title (Is it for the poor). You say you notice a difference compared to 20 years ago … that was 2002. This forum didn’t even exist. I didn’t walk then but around that time I considered walking to Santiago for the first time. There have certainly been changes to the demographic composition of Camino walkers/bikers/pilgrims since then and changes of the infrastructure. Both have become more diverse. But was the Camino and those on it more welcoming to ”the poor” then and if so who were they?

From what I know, during the past two decades, Camino walking has become more popular, has reached a more international public and also a broader spectrum of people. From what I know, in earlier years it attracted (from outside Spain and from Europe) mainly students and people with an interest in art and history, often with a high level of education - that’s how a friend described it who went in the 90s.

There were probably fewer people who lived permanently on the Caminos as “nomads” than today, I don’t know but it’s a strong guess. So was the Camino more “for the poor” then? Only if you regard young people and students as poor because they may have limited financial means. But even then I guess that the really poor ones didn’t have the opportunity to walk for 5 weeks in Spain during their holidays. They had to work and earn money to see them through term time.

 

[Bradypus]

From what I know, in earlier years it attracted (from outside Spain and from Europe) mainly students and people with an interest in art and history, often with a high level of education - that’s how a friend described it who went in the 90s.

A couple of years ago @Kathar1na posted some fascinating statistics compiled by Roncesvalles on pilgrims who walked in 1987. A much younger demographic than today with students being the vast majority of walking pilgrims. And with only one pilgrim declaring themselves to be non-religious. I just looked at those figures again and saw that over 1/3 of Compostelas were issued to pilgrims who had not journeyed on foot. My own first Camino was slightly later in 1990 but what I recall of that time pretty much reflects the picture painted by these stats. A very different situation from today.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The poor are with us always. One reason we strive to keep donativo albergues alive is so people of limited means have a dry place to lay their heads at night. For a long time the poor were pushed back into the streets again by "bargain hunters" who used the albergue system as a cheap holiday bunk, but this has eased as private accommodations offer the "value for money" crowd more perks for very little money.
I help to run donativo albergues. Occasionally we do have truly impoverished pilgrims stay, people who can't even swing the usual 5 euro fee for a municipal... they can stay anyway. So can the well-heeled person in the next bed, who savors the privilege of not having to spend any for his bare-bones albergue bed.
Each of them lives with his own kind of poverty.
Only one of them will complain in following days about the housekeeping or plumbing or hospitaleros at the albergue... and the hygiene and poor clothing choices of the "bum." (Real Pilgrims don't wear old blue jeans and sneakers, and carry a duffle instead of a backpack.)
I am always surprised to hear about how pilgrims treat the poor who travel the trails and use the albergues.
Jesus had a lot to say about rich and poor people. Guess which side he always upholds?

 

[t2andreo]

Pilgrims (and the materially poor) are satisfied. Tourists complain.

Just sayin -

Tom

 

[RENSHAW]

I was soo hoping that You would respond Reb

I only managed to fund my self by begging of friends,. bouncing the credit card, the overdraft and the bank loan. My bank loan finally bites the dust, end of March. For me the funding has been bloody hard. And it has been so since 2003. Guess what, I will do it all over again, God, the bank manager and the bookies willing

Buen Camino

Samarkand.

I’m going to disagree about why people stay in Albergues. Certainly, camaraderie is part of it- but I would not say that economics are irrelevant. Many mostly younger folks, can only afford to stay in albergues and there are several varieties offering different options. Starting with donativos at the lowest cost end, then municipals and finally privates - all are cheaper than a hostal or hotel room. I met many pilgrims who only stayed in albergues and who were obviously on a budget.

The poor are with us always. One reason we strive to keep donativo albergues alive is so people of limited means have a dry place to lay their heads at night. For a long time the poor were pushed back into the streets again by "bargain hunters" who used the albergue system as a cheap holiday bunk, but this has eased as private accommodations offer the "value for money" crowd more perks for very little money.
I help to run donativo albergues. Occasionally we do have truly impoverished pilgrims stay, people who can't even swing the usual 5 euro fee for a municipal... they can stay anyway. So can the well-heeled person in the next bed, who savors the privilege of not having to spend any for his bare-bones albergue bed.
Each of them lives with his own kind of poverty.
Only one of them will complain in following days about the housekeeping or plumbing or hospitaleros at the albergue... and the hygiene and poor clothing choices of the "bum." (Real Pilgrims don't wear old blue jeans and sneakers, and carry a duffle instead of a backpack.)
I am always surprised to hear about how pilgrims treat the poor who travel the trails and use the albergues.
Jesus had a lot to say about rich and poor people. Guess which side he always upholds?

I am soooo happy that you have responded Reb , regards to Paddy as well and a hug to Ruby from me. I think that . the Lord Jesus is a good mention here and what would he have done! Getting a little religious now. I think of all the Donativas need a medal , The Church on the Camino will always help, a comforting reminder and my goodness , have they helped me?

 

[VNwalking]

I've been watching this conversation a little leerily from the margins, with no strong intention of chiming in. But here goes.

This really spoke to me:

Each of them lives with his own kind of poverty.

So true, and a poigant expression of the fact that wealth is not necessarily a blessing. Not to know how you will manage to eat or sleep tonight is no blessing either, but it can be a doorway into deep wisdom and compassion - unlike wealth which generally isn't.

But let's not confuse both simplicity and contentment with fiscal impoverishment. The camino directly fosters the first two, but does not require poverty. We are pilgrims first. And some (a small and diminishing fraction) are also walking without financial cushion of any sort. But a pilgrim is a pilgrim. That's all.

Pilgrims (and the materially poor) are satisfied. Tourists complain.

'Are grateful,' works better for me than 'satisfied,' because when things are a bit 'interesting' I can still access gratitude, but not necessarily satisfaction.
That said, it is a good point when it holds. Which is not universally

 

[wayfarer]

Pilgrims (and the materially poor) are satisfied. Tourists complain.

Just sayin -

Tom

I have met plenty pilgrims who complained about bad service, and rightly so, and plenty tourists who didn't complain.
That old chestnut is just a way of looking down on those who don't meet some people's idea of how a camino should be done.
Just saying.

 

[Former member 49149]

The Camino can be done with very little if one especially if the person is from Spain or France. One just had to accept many hardships. I have attached a link to a series of videos showing a young man walk from Roncevalles to Santiago with less than 20 euros in his pocket.
El Camino de Santiago sin nada

I am working my way backwards through this thread. I have work to do, but I am captivated by the video. Thank you.

 

[RENSHAW]

Wow! going to capture this video now.

 

[RRat]

Further more to my 'Beggar in Pamplona' Post ' I recall about 12 years ago a young man who was in his underwear fishing just after the well known Pamplona city bridge , the Gaurda took him away , obviously he was a 'vagrant' or was he?Hopefully he was taken out of town and sent on his way? He could have been from many countries away.
So often do we ask , where are the best albergues , the the best food. We spend hundreds of £ or $ for fights and we expect the 'tourist' experience , 20 years ago during my first camino it was a tad different , I just wonder if we have lost the plot?
It almost seems that those who do not have the means are vagabonds? Who is the Camino for!? Sharing and you may with pleasure come back to me.

Don't let appearances fool you. In 2018 I kept running into one of those poor looking pilgrims. Something didn't seem right. A small older Asian man. Clothes were street clothes. Other Asian pilgrims seemed to keep a distance. He joined me while I was sitting for dinner. He was a bit different and confided to me that he was an Catholic Archbishop. I thought sure but from that point on when ever I ran into him, I greeted him with an informal "Padre". He seemed to enjoy it. Some time later I attended a pilgrims mass and they had a special visitor leading the service, the Archbishop. In his vestments he was a different person. Now everything made sense. We would still run into each other from time to time. My regret, as a Catholic I never asked or received a blessing from him.

 

[Kathor1]

I have attached a link to a series of videos showing a young man walk from Roncevalles to Santiago with less than 20 euros in his pocket. El Camino de Santiago sin nada

I am working my way backwards through this thread. I have work to do, but I am captivated by the video. Thank you.

I unashamedly admit that reading titles or slogans such as "The Universe Provides" and "Walking the Camino without Money" is more than enough to thoroughly put me off and extinguishes any interest I may have had but your remark, @kirkie, made me curious and I started part 1 of 5. I have now watched all 35 minutes of part 1. And I was captivated, too, because it turned out to be different from what I had expected, and the protagonist is muy simpatico. Also physically very fit. It appears that he (now?) is a specialist in the area of ejercicio físico en la salud de las personas.

Not sure how the videos relate to the topic of the thread but I think I may watch the other 4 parts. Right now I regret that I didn't know about and didn't visit La Casa de las Ciencias in Logroño. Seems to be quite close to the Camino trail.

 

[t2andreo]

I've been watching this conversation a little leerily from the margins, with no strong intention of chiming in. But here goes.

This really spoke to me:

So true, and a poigant expression of the fact that wealth is not necessarily a blessing. Not to know how you will manage to eat or sleep tonight is no blessing either, but it can be a doorway into deep wisdom and compassion - unlike wealth which generally isn't.

But let's not confuse both simplicity and contentment with fiscal impoverishment. The camino directly fosters the first two, but does not require poverty. We are pilgrims first. And some (a small and diminishing fraction) are also walking without financial cushion of any sort. But a pilgrim is a pilgrim. That's all.


'Are grateful,' works better for me than 'satisfied,' because when things are a bit 'interesting' I can still access gratitude, but not necessarily satisfaction.
That said, it is a good point when it holds. Which is not universally

You are, course correct. I misremembered the oft made statement and used “satisfied” instead of “grateful.”

My bad - lo siento.

Tom

 

[Tincatinker]

I'm just a poor Pilgrim. I squandered over forty years of my life in Public Service and my pension will keep me in bread and roses till I need neither. It'll pay for that budget flight, public transport access and every Albergue, Hostal or Church Porch I choose to stay in. The first time I walked in Spain I had no (read very little) money, no backpack, a forged return ferry ticket that got me around the Guardia Civil once or twice but not always; and the eternal hope that there were enough good (read poor) people around that would share.
And I met them. In their hundreds. I could trade my youthful, physical, strength and a days labour for a bed in the hay and some Sopa de Ajo. I could sing unintelligible songs in a strange language and be rewarded with a drink or a penny or two. I could rely on the incontrovertible fact that everyone I met (except the Guardia ) lived lives just like mine and I wanted nothing different.

@RENSHAW, bless him, has asked "is the Camino for the poor?". Why would it not be? Is "The Way", the "Camino Experience", the "UNESCO Cultural Heritage" for the poor. Oh, now, that's another question.

 

[Bradypus]

I could trade my youthful, physical, strength and a days labour for a bed in the hay and some Sopa de Ajo. I could sing unintelligible songs in a strange language and be rewarded with a drink or a penny or two. I could rely on the incontrovertible fact that everyone I met (except the Guardia ) lived lives just like mine and I wanted nothing different.

You are Laurie Lee and I claim my £5!

 

[David]

Our prime minister, Boris Johnson, when he was at Eton and twelve years old had to write an essay on poverty.
It started
"There was once a family who were very poor. Father was poor, mother was poor, why, even the butler was poor ....."

 

[Turga]

The first time I walked in Spain I had no (read very little) money, no backpack, a forged return ferry ticket that got me around the Guardia Civil once or twice but not always; and the eternal hope that there were enough good (read poor) people around that would share.

My heart bleeds for you!

According to your ‘Camino History’ you walked the first time in 2012 – it seems you have come a long way in those 10 years…

 

[Tincatinker]

My heart bleeds for you!

According to your ‘Camino History’ you walked the first time in 2012 – it seems you have come a long way in those 10 years…

Ah, Camino, History: his story. My first venture into Spain was in 1969. I only found out about "Camino" somewhere in the mid 1980's walking in the Picos de Europa when I was asked if I was "Peregrino" - to which my answer was "No". That walk was from San Vicente de la Barquera (it's a boat thing) to Leon. When I got home I went to the British Library and discovered that "Camino" was, perhaps, pilgrimage. That there was a pilgrimage route through the Picos and that I'd, accidentally, followed it. I did some more research after that and discovered that there was this secret global organisation that owned walking in Spain and claimed to be called "Pilgrims"

I do remember standing, staring, in front of the Lignum Crucis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Toribio_de_Liébana thinking that perhaps all that stuff my Granny told me about roads and routes and the sacredness of "journey" might just be true but I was young and more interested in Orujo and whether any young girl in the village might be interested in me.

In 2012 I walked a conscious, deliberate, pilgrimage to the bones of Santiago, one who might have touched the Divine. Previously I'd walked in vain search of the grave of Federico García Lorca. I'd walked to Muxia in search of our broken boat, the one that once gave my peoples hope of crossing the sundering seas to the islands that will, now, never exist. They were all called Hope.

@Turga, camino means "Path"; not destination. Camino is not owned by those that think they have a claim to it.

 

[martin1ws]

The camino is for everyone.


Can you be a pilgrim without money? In Spain or France, yes...

On my Camino Primitivo I met a French pilgrim (student in medicine) who started his camino at home without money (and no smartphone and no passport)... not because he had no money or because he could not get money from his family but to "find (deeper) trust in god".

If there was no donativo albergue he slept normally under a roof, e. g. in the entrance of a church, on his isomat. Other people or pilgrims gave him the necessary food or he sat down for begging for some time.

He was an interesting pilgrim and I invited him in a bar... and we had a nice time.

 

[wayfarer]

I would have more time for a genuinely poor person/pilgrim that one who is playing at one, I think that that is disrespectful to the people who helped him.

 

[SabsP]

I would have more time for a genuinely poor person/pilgrim that one who is playing at one, I think that that is disrespectful to the people who helped him.

Thank you!
Reminds me of those horrid reality shows ( admitting that I sometimes watch them when bored ) where extremely wealthy families trade " lives " for a couple of days with an economically poor family.
Not difficult to " pretend " for a week.

I can only feel contempt for that French student in medicine mentioned in post #97. Most probably the student was able to study thanks to the financial help of his parents and /or a study allowance by the State ( and therefore all French taxpayers ).

 

[Albertagirl]

I would have more time for a genuinely poor person/pilgrim that one who is playing at one, I think that that is disrespectful to the people who helped him.

I am not sure. I think that it depends on who he is now. He has experienced some of the physical poverty and vulnerability of the poor. What kind of a doctor and a human being has this experience made him? It is impossible for a person supported by a financially stable family to fully share the experiences of the poor. And to live a lie in order to do so seems wrong. But where did it take him? It was an education, of sorts.