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Is Dousing My Silk Bag with Pemetherin (for bed bugs) a Bad Idea?


Think you mean a poll - struggled with this for quite a few minutes
 
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Patch said:
Think you mean a poll - struggled with this for quite a few minutes
Click to expand...

Oh, my...that is funny! I think if you hold a (P)pole for long enough, you will get to the heart of the information you are after....

Of course, I am a spelling error pro.

I got nixed twice on the Camino Norte. I got hit once on the Vdlp. I got hit zero times on the Levante and didn't even have a sleeping bag for most of it, just slept in the sheets and blanket.
 
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Let us pick up your suitcase once you arrive in Europe....
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zrexer said:
I am not sure if the platform this forum is built on allows the construction of a pole, but it would be interesting to see among the membership how many have actually suffered from a bed bug problem.
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Yes it is possible to set up a simple poll. However, I seriously doubt how good the data would be. Responders would be self-selected, they could vote multiple times, and it would be hard to account for things like number of bites per night spent on the Camino, which route, precautions taken, allergic status, and whether the bugs were seen, confirmed or suspected.
 
To be serious, at least @zrexer is proposing something better than the earlier 'it didn't happen to me so it isn't a problem' approach. And perhaps we could create a simple poll here that would give some indication of how often people find bed bugs. However, I don't think this will quell some peoples disquiet, as it is the fear of the consequences that seems most relevant here.

If my assessment on that is correct, then the fact any are around is much, much more important than how frequently they might occur. And I think this has been well established - they have been found, so they are a problem.

At great risk of being really boring, if you are worried there are options:
  1. learn how to detect them, and don't stay in those places where you do find signs they are present
  2. you might choose to treat your clothing and gear with an insecticide - the choice is yours, but if you do, then permethrin is a suitable and safe product if it is used according to the established protocols - read the instructions! There are other products available, including pyrethrum, which don't appear provide the same protection or for as long as permethrin.
  3. use a repellent to protect exposed areas at night - again, this is a personal choice
  4. or do all of these things, because you might find no obvious sign of bed bugs, but they could still be present.
 
Pyrethrum may be naturally derived from chrysanthemums, but the more "natural" something is, the harder it is to control the dose you are getting or the other ingredients/components the product may contain. So safety is actually less assured. This is one of the reasons that there is less hard science on the safety or effectiveness of such "natural" products. As someone else said, nature is pretty good at developing poisons. When I was working in epidemiology, we followed up on several poisonings that occurred in people using "natural," unstudied products from "Natural" stores that were found to also contain small amounts of arsenic or lead (also natural substances).

Meanwhile, Permethrin - the synthetic form - only contains the effective ingredient and the dose is controlled. (Speaking of which, if you buy it in an agriculture shop in Spain, you should check to see that the dosage isn't a lot stronger than Sawyers: .5%). The safety has been well-studied and you can read about the caveats.

Also, as has been noted in this thread a few times, there is no *proof* that permethrin absolutely repels bed bugs. So I can only hope the bugs will prefer others in my albergue who are relying on citronella.
 
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Just as an added note (benefit?) to Permetherin benefits. I have walked only two days on the Norte and been slammed by mosquitos. So if I had taken my permetherin gear, this would have helped maybe.
 
I have seen people covered with bed bug bites on the CF and I have seen bed bugs in albergues but I have avoided being bitten. In 2001, as I remember, there were NONE. Now it appears to be more common, just as it is all over North America and Europe with bed bug infestations out of control.

Don't soak your liner or sleeping bag in anything. It won't help. There is virtually nothing you can do to avoid them if they are present when you are sleeping aside from completely sealing yourself inside of a bag which is most likely impossible. They are pernicious and attracted to your production of CO2.
 

That does it. I am no longer going to produce CO2. Done.

Meanwhile, just anecdotally, has anyone here been bitten by bedbugs even after sleeping in or on a permethrin sprayed or soaked sheet/bag? I don't remember seeing that. I read that permethrin doesn't do a great job of repelling them, but just curious to see if anyone has experienced this fail.
 
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Yes, me. I was on top of a sheet, not cocooned inside it. I now sleep inside a permethrin soaked silk sleeping bag liner and put Deet on anything exposed. I have not been bitten since doing that. It will probably kill me, but at my age you takes your chances.
 
Many people bitten by bed bugs show no reaction whatsoever and are therefore unaware of having been bitten. I don't know what the percentage is but it may be as high as 30%. So just because someone doesn't have any bite marks doesn't mean they were not the evening meal.
 
Let us pick up your suitcase once you arrive in Europe....
...and ship it to Santiago for storage. You pick it up once in Santiago. Service offered by Casa Ivar (we use DHL for transportation).
I posted about 15 days ago about beg bug bites. I'm within 60 km of Santiago and a little disheartened. I still am getting bitten plus I've had bites turn to blisters, swollen face/lips and now swollen left eye moving to right eye. My husband will sleep in same bed and not get anything. I spray bed and myself when I arrive in any room. Any suggestions?
 
Anne DR said:
Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry to hear this . Sometimes the reactions appear over a period of several days, so you are not necessarily getting new bites. These might be delayed reactions to old bites. But 15 days seems long for reactions to a single night's exposure.
.
Are you sleeping cocooned in a treated bag/liner and using Deep repellent on your exposed skin? That might be better than randomly spraying the bed.

Have you been to a pharmacy to get oral antihistamines to relieve the allergic reaction?

I hope this helps!

Edit to add: The above assumes that you have thoroughly treated all your clothes and pack with heat or insecticide, and you are isolating them at night, to avoid carrying bed bugs along with you.
 
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Anne DR said:
Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Antihistamines for the reaction and the blisters. See a farmacia for topical ointment. You may not be getting new bites; it can take a few days to react. Your husband may have been bitten, but does not react. He probably should decontaminate as well.

Treat your pack and equipment to eliminate any infestation. Washing works for clothes. Insecticide will work on pack and equipment. Gardening stores or hardware stores, and maybe China stores, will have insecticides.

When you get home, put your entire kit in a large plastic bag, and begin treating everything. You do not want to import bed bugs to your home!!
 
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Over my 18 years of walking caminos, I have been bitten three times, the most recently being this June. I have seen MANY MANY MANY people with awful batches of bites. If you don't react to these bugs, lucky you; if you've never seen anyone with them, lucky you; but if you think they are not a problem on the Camino, you are deluding yourself. These critters cause three main problems -- problems for the people who are bitten and suffer; problems for the Camino chain down the road; and problems for bringing them back home. The latter two are the ones that give me more concern -- I can tolerate the bites, but the thought of spending thousands to get them eradicated from my home is not a pleasant one.

For the first time, this year I had previously sprayed my backpack and sleeping bag with a peremethrin spray, and was surprised to wake up one morning with bites. At the next albergue, I got the "total treatment" -- and had no further incidents. So, of course there are unknowns -- were those really bed bug bites? (several suggested they were probably fleas, but "probably" is not a good enough answer to avoid treamtment, IMO). Was it smart to spray the equipment beforehand since I got bitten anyway?

Just more "known unknowns" to figure out. Buen camino, Laurie
 
Thank you for the suggestions. Is it possible to get permethrin along the Camino? How can I ask for it? I'm using DEET now and washing clothes either by hand or in machines. I really am starting to think it's my O- blood they love!!
 
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Anne DR said:
washing clothes either by hand or in machines
Click to expand...
But are you putting all clothes and bedding (both yours and your husband's) into a hot drier so they have 20 minutes of heat while they are dry and are all decontaminated at once? And then protected or isolated?

I do not have O blood but they love me, and leave my companions alone. However I don't suffer from mosquitoes as much as some people do.
 
You can now buy already impregnated bags for around £16. This is what I used and had no problems. Having said that I never heard of anyone had issue. The Spanish Government has put stricter standards on Albergues.
 
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Note that Permetherin is safe for humans and dogs, but is toxic to cats. Be extra careful if have a cat.

-Paul
 
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