Is Dousing My Silk Bag with Pemetherin (for bed bugs) a Bad Idea?

[pilgr]

I am about to walk the Norte. Four years ago, I got into a bunch of bed bugs TWICE on the same route! I have heard a silk bag is one way of dealing with bed bugs. I have heard Pemetherin may be a deterrent....but maybe it isn't good for the environment and/or me. Suggestions?

 

[C clearly]

Silk has no advantage over any other closely woven fabric, when it comes to bedbugs. It is not repellent. However, it is a great lightweight fabric.

Permethrin will kill most bedbugs from direct contact. Its effectiveness as a repellant after it is dry on your liner is not proven.

Another approach is to cocoon yourself in your liner, and use Deet insect repellant on your exposed skin (face and hands).

Neither permethrin nor Deet could be considered "good for the environment." They might be good for you if they help avoid bedbug bites.

 

[pilgr]

Another thread on a similar topic suggested to drink plenty of red wine at night so you sleep soundly. The reason is basically there isn't much you can do to prevent the bedbug from having its way with you.

 

[Kanga]

Here is a recent thread with lots of information about how to avoid bites. https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/bug-bites.49942/

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I'm with @C clearly. Spray spray spray. But rather a contour sheet and liner woth permethryn than yourseld with Deet.,

 

[JillGat]

Another thread on a similar topic suggested to drink plenty of red wine at night so you sleep soundly. The reason is basically there isn't much you can do to prevent the bedbug from having its way with you.

Ew.. not a good image.

 

[Hiawatha]

You may want to reconsider this course of action after reading of the Neurotoxic effects of Permethrin Insecticide.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653502008548

 

[dougfitz]

You may want to reconsider this course of action after reading of the Neurotoxic effects of Permethrin Insecticide.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653502008548

I can only see the abstract, which doesn't appear to reveal any new information that would overturn the current view of health authorities that permethrin is safe when used in accordance with well established handling and disposal protocols. Does the body of the article suggest a different view?

 

[Bradypus]

You may want to reconsider this course of action after reading of the Neurotoxic effects of Permethrin Insecticide.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653502008548

I do not understand the point you are making here. Obviously permethrin is a toxin - why else would it be used against bedbugs? The abstract describes experiments to try to determine the specific mechanism by which permethrin acts at a cellular level. It clearly states that this was done by separating subsections of nerve cells (extracted from rats) from the larger complete neurones and then measuring certain key chemical processes at work. A highly specific, complicated and artificial procedure down at the microscopic level. There may well be other legitimate reasons for concern about the use of permethrin but nothing in this particular abstract suggests that human skin contact at the macro level is harmful and I can see no reason why you would cite this particular article to support such a view.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Use permethrin as instructed, and it will help you prevent bed bug bites and infestations. Keep it away from fish and cats while wet.

 

[hel&scott]

I fail to see the logic in this as surely you sleeping in a chemically treated sheet night after night means you will absorb way more of the chemical then the bugs will and this can't be good for you. And it won't stop picking up an infestation in your pack or the rest of your gear that you carry along the way with you. There is plenty of good advice on the forum in other threds to educate you on what to look for before you settled in for the night, and what to do if you do get caught.

 

[Patch]

I douse my silk sheet sleeping bag. No problem with bed bugs both on my Caminos and other walks around the world. I have not had any advese effects from doing this - as opposed to having been bitten before doing this and it having serious side effects. But as many thins you pays your money you makes your choice. Have a great Camino

 

[Anniesantiago]

The only nice think about silk is how good it feels on the bedbugs' tiny feet.
It will do nothing to protect you from bites.

I suggest a lightweight sleeping bag - you can get them for around $50 or under, and to spray the OUTSIDE of that bag with Sawyer's permethrin (or whatever permethrin you can get.)
No need to douse it or spray the inside.
I also suggest you spray the outside of your pack, and keep it up off the floor at night.

Your body is well able to deal with the permethrin for the few weeks it takes to walk the Camino, especially if it's only on the OUTSIDE of your bag.
Especially since you're walking 6-7 hours per day and chelating the chemical.

 

[C clearly]

I'm with @C clearly. Spray spray spray.

I didn't exactly say that! There are pros and cons and many unknowns that each person needs to weigh.

 

[pilgr]

The only nice think about silk is how good it feels on the bedbugs' tiny feet.

So you are saying if I bring silk, I may be creating good karma with the bed bugs...and this then might be the most effective defense against the bed bugs?

 

[JillGat]

Thanks for the heads-up... I will stop drinking permethryn immediately! I may even stop eating rats that have been drinking it.
Actually, permethryn, used as directed (sprayed on clothing and sleeping bags and allowed to dry before use) is quite safe. They even studied pregnant women who were exposed to it and there were no problems. The military has been treating clothing of soldiers since the early 1990s. The abstract posted is misleading. Here is more information:

https://www.nap.edu/read/9274/chapter/6#56

 

[JillGat]

I fail to see the logic in this as surely you sleeping in a chemically treated sheet night after night means you will absorb way more of the chemical then the bugs will and this can't be good for you. And it won't stop picking up an infestation in your pack or the rest of your gear that you carry along the way with you. There is plenty of good advice on the forum in other threds to educate you on what to look for before you settled in for the night, and what to do if you do get caught.

The studies show that very little - if any - permethryn is absorbed by the skin after contact with material that was sprayed and then allowed to dry.

 

[California Steve]

I carried a small spray bottle with Citronella Essential Oil and sprayed on and around my bed and on my stuff and did okay. I did catch bugs one night and had to wash everything/dry on high heat. I resprayed my bag afterward. Unfortunately I sat next to a young lady on the plane returning home from Camino. She showed me bites on her arms and was sure she was bringing home some unwanted guests.

 

[nidarosa]

I am not going to weigh in on either side in this particular debate, but I would like to ask people to pretty please don't spray beds, mattresses, pillows etc with anything! Imagine the build-up of chemicals and scents and oils if everybody did this every day If you want to spray your stuff, do it at home before you go or at least in a vented area. If you want to spray stuff on yourself, please do that too in a vented area. Some people are sensitive to certain smells; my mother gets asthmatic attacks. Some people can't stand certain smells, in my case lavender - please no more essential oils on the albergue pillows! - and I'm pretty sure some critters will get immune if everyone sprays them with low doses of repellent daily.

I also wish people would see sense and agree to let in fresh cool night air as well - oxygen is good for you! - but I'm not holding my breath on that particular issue ...

 

[nidarosa]

I'm just going to leave @Anniesantiago's excellent bed bug detection blog post here, so you can look instead of spraying or fretting: Don't let the bedbugs bite
(though I don't actually advocate spraying, as mentioned above)

 

[pilgr]

I'm just going to leave @Anniesantiago's excellent bed bug detection blog post here, so you can look instead of spraying or fretting: Don't let the bedbugs bite
(though I don't actually advocate spraying, as mentioned above)

Interesting read. I ended up dousing my sleeping bag with Pemetherin and ended up with the stuff all over my hands. I guess I just entered the world as being a walking experiment

 

[Seabird]

I am not going to weigh in on either side in this particular debate, but I would like to ask people to pretty please don't spray beds, mattresses, pillows etc with anything! Imagine the build-up of chemicals and scents and oils if everybody did this every day If you want to spray your stuff, do it at home before you go or at least in a vented area. If you want to spray stuff on yourself, please do that too in a vented area. Some people are sensitive to certain smells; my mother gets asthmatic attacks. Some people can't stand certain smells, in my case lavender - please no more essential oils on the albergue pillows! - and I'm pretty sure some critters will get immune if everyone sprays them with low doses of repellent daily.

I also wish people would see sense and agree to let in fresh cool night air as well - oxygen is good for you! - but I'm not holding my breath on that particular issue ...

I decided against spraying my clothes and bag, but took a small bottle of pyrethrum (the natural insecticide, not the synthetic one. Here's an article talking about them both. And yes, I know they can be chemically the same.) I had planned to spray the bed rails etc. But then I realized that looking for signs of bed bugs was likely more effective and less of a bother. So I ditched the spray and did not have any problems.

And here here for fresh air!

 

[C clearly]

The studies show that very little - if any - permethryn is absorbed by the skin after contact with material that was sprayed and then allowed to dry.

That's why I figure that a sprayed sheet won't kill the bedbugs before they bite me! And, since it doesn't smell, I tend to doubt that it would act as a deterrent.

 

[Anniesantiago]

So you are saying if I bring silk, I may be creating good karma with the bed bugs...and this then might be the most effective defense against the bed bugs?

Ummmmmm no. Not exactly. lol!

 

[Bisnick]

I have used a silk liner that i spray and dry outside on a line two days before I depart. I also spray my rucksack and use a plastic tie to ensure it is off the ground. the only thing I would point out is you may start the night all cuddled up in your liner but I am sure it wont be long before your arms are hanging out and the liner has slipped down exposing loads of skin for a meal, because of this I purchased a bedbug sheet and stretched over the mattress so the critters wouldn't climb up on to me.
Fresh air for me as well! I had a lovely battle with a Spanish chap in Padron municipal Alburgue two years ago I was sleeping just at the top of the stairs and the dormitory was full , the windows by me were open and this chap came up the stairs and shut them and then proceeded to walk to the other end of the dormitory when it sounded if he was getting into bed i opened it again and within five mins he was back shutting it complaining loudly. This went on a number of times as the room was so stuffy.
It stayed open after a couple of younger Spanish chaps (about 40) told him in no uncertain terms to stop it and get back to bed. Well that's what it sounded like! I saw them the next day in Santiago and they didn't speak any english but there was plenty of back slapping and laughing as they mimed the older chap walking up and down moaning loudly.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I'm just going to leave @Anniesantiago's excellent bed bug detection blog post here, so you can look instead of spraying or fretting: Don't let the bedbugs bite
(though I don't actually advocate spraying, as mentioned above)

Yeah, I don't like people spraying EO's because of allergies. The spray I use is a mosquito spray and I keep it close to the mattress. I generally don't do it if anyone's in the room and it is scent free. But yeah, maybe I should revisit that... except it works SO well to drive the little buggers out. Plus I'm pretty sure those mattresses and rooms get sprayed on a regular basis.

 

[Hiawatha]

My apologies , I have access to such studies as a matter of course and didn't realise that only the abstract was generally available .

Having been involved in such circular arguments before I am loathe to proceed , such discussions always seem to result in personal attacks from specific members .

However because I raised the issue I will add further , as a clarification rather than an incitement to riot . If you have further doubts then personal study should be made .
Much has been said of the ' safety ' of general use of Permethrin , I have no issue with this , used as an insecticide it is effective and relatively safe , I use it myself .
There are considerations though that must be recognised when using this compound as a prophylactic , especially if spraying clothing and bedding yourself .
Pretreated fabrics as available commercially and as used by Military suppliers are produced using bonding processes that permanently attach the active ingredients to the substrate , this eliminates the possibility of transference to the skin of the user/wearer . It also renders them washable whilst still allowing them to remain actively repellent to insects , something that home treated fabrics cannot do .
'Permetrin is safe when dry ' is a telling phrase , it is the propensity of the compound to become mobile when exposed to moisture that creates health concerns . Thus in a sleeping sheet / bag or clothing treated from a spray bottle by the owner any moisture absorbed will allow the Permethrin to transfer onto exposed skin .
Perhaps we all don't wet the bed but most do perspire and perhaps profusely so in Spain's notoriously hot and humid weather .
Such moisture renders the insecticide 'unsafe ' thus requiring procedures mentioned by manufacturers to be again followed , gloves , washing exposed skin etc , all things hardly practical in a sleeping sheet, in a bunk, in an Albergue .

 

[CaminoJoy123]

I fail to see the logic in this as surely you sleeping in a chemically treated sheet night after night means you will absorb way more of the chemical then the bugs will and this can't be good for you. And it won't stop picking up an infestation in your pack or the rest of your gear that you carry along the way with you. There is plenty of good advice on the forum in other threds to educate you on what to look for before you settled in for the night, and what to do if you do get caught.

well I think many people also spray the pack and other gear

 

[CaminoJoy123]

My apologies , I have access to such studies as a matter of course and didn't realise that only the abstract was generally available .

Having been involved in such circular arguments before I am loathe to proceed , such discussions always seem to result in personal attacks from specific members .

However because I raised the issue I will add further , as a clarification rather than an incitement to riot . If you have further doubts then personal study should be made .
Much has been said of the ' safety ' of general use of Permethrin , I have no issue with this , used as an insecticide it is effective and relatively safe , I use it myself .
There are considerations though that must be recognised when using this compound as a prophylactic , especially if spraying clothing and bedding yourself .
Pretreated fabrics as available commercially and as used by Military suppliers are produced using bonding processes that permanently attach the active ingredients to the substrate , this eliminates the possibility of transference to the skin of the user/wearer . It also renders them washable whilst still allowing them to remain actively repellent to insects , something that home treated fabrics cannot do .
'Permetrin is safe when dry ' is a telling phrase , it is the propensity of the compound to become mobile when exposed to moisture that creates health concerns . Thus in a sleeping sheet / bag or clothing treated from a spray bottle by the owner any moisture absorbed will allow the Permethrin to transfer onto exposed skin .
Perhaps we all don't wet the bed but most do perspire and perhaps profusely so in Spain's notoriously hot and humid weather .
Such moisture renders the insecticide 'unsafe ' thus requiring procedures mentioned by manufacturers to be again followed , gloves , washing exposed skin etc , all things hardly practical in a sleeping sheet, in a bunk, in an Albergue .

Ok, so after the Permethrin has been applied and has thoroughly dried, and after it's bonded to the fabric, and maybe five days pass, then the treated garment must not get wet and touch skin? And if it does touch skin we must take precautions?

Are you aware that hikers in the US actually soak their gear in buckets of the stuff, dry their gear, then wear it, sleep in it and sweat in it?

Are you thinking they are at risk of developing cancer from this practice?

 

[dougfitz]

I fail to see the logic in this as surely you sleeping in a chemically treated sheet night after night means you will absorb way more of the chemical then the bugs will and this can't be good for you. And it won't stop picking up an infestation in your pack or the rest of your gear that you carry along the way with you. There is plenty of good advice on the forum in other threds to educate you on what to look for before you settled in for the night, and what to do if you do get caught.

Whether you absorb more than the bedbugs is not the point. The bedbugs need to get a lethal dose and you don't. All the articles that I have read on this indicate that once dried, permethrin is absorbed through the skin in such small amounts that it is safe for humans. What you do need to avoid is contact with moist areas of the body - eyes, nose and the genitals. So one shouldn't treat underwear, but it is safe to treat outerwear and if you are using a permethrin treated liner or sleeping bag, then don't sleep completely naked or cover your face.

Even if you don't do that, it would still be very difficult to approach the point where you have consumed or absorbed enough to be concerned. When this was last discussed, I calculated that one would need to drink about five litres of the Sawyer spray product to be at risk.

Interesting read. I ended up dousing my sleeping bag with Pemetherin and ended up with the stuff all over my hands. I guess I just entered the world as being a walking experiment

I wonder if you read the safety instructions or the MSDS. All the ones that I have seen state that you should wear protective gloves when handling permethrin in solution. If you didn't do that, you have put yourself at risk. There are normally also instructions about exposing cats to the product (don't) and safe disposal - follow them.

edited to remove a misleading statement about disposal of leftover solution.

 

[dougfitz]

Pretreated fabrics as available commercially and as used by Military suppliers are produced using bonding processes that permanently attach the active ingredients to the substrate , this eliminates the possibility of transference to the skin of the user/wearer . It also renders them washable whilst still allowing them to remain actively repellent to insects , something that home treated fabrics cannot do .

@Charles Zammit, most soaking treatments that I have investigated only require the article to be dried, and claim that the protection will be effective for a number of washes. What is this special bonding process and does it extend the life of the protection between treatments?

 

[Anniesantiago]

My apologies , I have access to such studies as a matter of course and didn't realise that only the abstract was generally available .

Having been involved in such circular arguments before I am loathe to proceed , such discussions always seem to result in personal attacks from specific members .

However because I raised the issue I will add further , as a clarification rather than an incitement to riot . If you have further doubts then personal study should be made .
Much has been said of the ' safety ' of general use of Permethrin , I have no issue with this , used as an insecticide it is effective and relatively safe , I use it myself .
There are considerations though that must be recognised when using this compound as a prophylactic , especially if spraying clothing and bedding yourself .
Pretreated fabrics as available commercially and as used by Military suppliers are produced using bonding processes that permanently attach the active ingredients to the substrate , this eliminates the possibility of transference to the skin of the user/wearer . It also renders them washable whilst still allowing them to remain actively repellent to insects , something that home treated fabrics cannot do .
'Permetrin is safe when dry ' is a telling phrase , it is the propensity of the compound to become mobile when exposed to moisture that creates health concerns . Thus in a sleeping sheet / bag or clothing treated from a spray bottle by the owner any moisture absorbed will allow the Permethrin to transfer onto exposed skin .
Perhaps we all don't wet the bed but most do perspire and perhaps profusely so in Spain's notoriously hot and humid weather .
Such moisture renders the insecticide 'unsafe ' thus requiring procedures mentioned by manufacturers to be again followed , gloves , washing exposed skin etc , all things hardly practical in a sleeping sheet, in a bunk, in an Albergue .

If you spray the OUTSIDE of your sleeping bag, the permethrin will never touch your skin.
If you spray the OUTSIDE of your pack, and let it dry, unless you wear the pack naked, it will not touch your skin.

 

[dougfitz]

Are you aware that hikers in the US actually soak their gear in buckets of the stuff, dry their gear, then wear it, sleep in it and sweat in it?

Are you thinking they are at risk of developing cancer from this practice?

I understand that soaking is the preferred method of applying permethrin. If any remaining solution is disposed of properly, it minimizes the risk of permethrin entering the local environment and doing what insecticides do - kill insects, including all the beneficial ones in the area.

There are studies showing that long term exposure such as might happen to agricultural workers who handle large quantities of the product over the course of many years, does have detectable effects. I am not sure what studies have been done on short term exposure from poor handling practice in the circumstances you describe.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

What is this special bonding process

I heard that it was putting on red shoes, clicking the heels, and repeating, "There is no place like home."

 

[Hiawatha]

Annie , and others , my comments and references were made in response to the title of the original post ;

'' Is dousing my silk bag with Permethrin [ for bed bugs ] a bad idea ? ''

Assuming that most pilgrims don't sleep in neck to knee ' Grandpa/ Grandma ' nighties then skin exposure to a '' Doused Bag '' is to be expected .

In response to other's doubts I will clarify that most home treatment is performed using water soluble solutions that bond temporarily to fabrics and will after time, washing and exposure to perspiration transfer and disperse . The so called permanent treatments used by military materiel suppliers are bonded using an resinous medium that is rendered ' permanent ' by curing using very high temperatures .
No suggestion has been made by me that Permethrin causes cancer , as I have stated , I use Permethrin myself , I just won't allow it to contact my skin to any great extent .

 

[CaminoJoy123]

The studies show that very little - if any - permethryn is absorbed by the skin after contact with material that was sprayed and then allowed to dry.

And so after it dries you can sweat in it, get it wet, and it's not being absorbed into the skin?

 

[jmcarp]

An entomology professor from a local university who is an expert on blood-sucking insects (including bedbugs) has given a couple of presentations to our local APOC chapter. According to him, the only insecticide that is reliably effective on bedbugs is DDT. Since DDT was banned many years ago, the word-wide bedbug population has exploded.

 

[alhartman]

Follow the labels!! Sawyer's is 0.5 percent; the vet supply place will have at 10%; some agricultural applications may be higher concentrations. There is no such thing as 'no risk'. Risk can only be mitigated. In general with poisons--ingestion is the most dangerous, followed by contact with the wet or aerosols, and then factoring in concentration and frequency of exposure (why farm workers get cancer). I treat my gear with the spray bottle but wear rubber gloves on the sprayer hand since many of them leak. I do not spray outside in a wind. permetherin is low danger in the concentrations and frequencies we use.
It is more a pre-emptive treatment to be sure we do not take hitch-hikers to the next albergue(s) than it is an insecticide. If I were Camino Dictator i would require gear be treated!! (Also a pledge for no graffiti or trash!!) If everyone treated their gear, it would go a long way to stopping the infestations (and blaming of the local hospitalier).
Use DEET on exposed skin for preventing bites--sleeping sack treatment just slows them down. (I watched from my lower bunk in Astorga as one dropped on my sleeping bag from above and crawled off slowly.

 

[CaminoJoy123]

An entomology professor from a local university who is an expert on blood-sucking insects (including bedbugs) has given a couple of presentations to our local APOC chapter. According to him, the only insecticide that is reliably effective on bedbugs is DDT. Since DDT was banned many years ago, the word-wide bedbug population has exploded.

Wow, that is really interesting! So when all these places treat bedbug infestations, what are they using?

 

[dougfitz]

In response to other's doubts I will clarify that most home treatment is performed using water soluble solutions that bond temporarily to fabrics and will after time, washing and exposure to perspiration transfer and disperse . The so called permanent treatments used by military materiel suppliers are bonded using an resinous medium that is rendered ' permanent ' by curing using very high temperatures .
No suggestion has been made by me that Permethrin causes cancer , as I have stated , I use Permethrin myself , I just won't allow it to contact my skin to any great extent .

@Charles Zammit, can you provide a source? My research indicates that the major difference in the longevity of the treatment comes from soaking rather than spraying. Spray applications appear to survive for a small number of washes - half a dozen or so. In contrast, soaking provides useful protection for 50 washes or more. This appears to be about the same longevity as is being claimed by the US Army for its factory treated garments. If the effect can be achieved by soaking in a water based permethrin solution, why would they add more complexity to the process?

 

[CaminoJoy123]

Follow the labels!! Sawyer's is 0.5 percent; the vet supply place will have at 10%; some agricultural applications may be higher concentrations. There is no such thing as 'no risk'. Risk can only be mitigated. In general with poisons--ingestion is the most dangerous, followed by contact with the wet or aerosols, and then factoring in concentration and frequency of exposure (why farm workers get cancer). I treat my gear with the spray bottle but wear rubber gloves on the sprayer hand since many of them leak. I do not spray outside in a wind. permetherin is low danger in the concentrations and frequencies we use.
It is more a pre-emptive treatment to be sure we do not take hitch-hikers to the next albergue(s) than it is an insecticide. If I were Camino Dictator i would require gear be treated!! (Also a pledge for no graffiti or trash!!) If everyone treated their gear, it would go a long way to stopping the infestations (and blaming of the local hospitalier).
Use DEET on exposed skin for preventing bites--sleeping sack treatment just slows them down. (I watched from my lower bunk in Astorga as one dropped on my sleeping bag from above and crawled off slowly.

and DEET is found easily in Spain?

 

[CaminoJoy123]

I decided against spraying my clothes and bag, but took a small bottle of pyrethrum (the natural insecticide, not the synthetic one. Here's an article talking about them both. And yes, I know they can be chemically the same.) I had planned to spray the bed rails etc. But then I realized that looking for signs of bed bugs was likely more effective and less of a bother. So I ditched the spray and did not have any problems.

And here here for fresh air!

where did you buy that pyrethrum? they let you take it on the plane?

 

[dougfitz]

And so after it dries you can sweat in it, get it wet, and it's not being absorbed into the skin?

Once fabric has been treated, the permethrin bonds in some way to the fibres, and resists abrasion and being re-absorbed into solution. My reading indicates that it needs the agitation of machine washing to reduce the amount of permethrin retained in the fabric, and even then the residual amounts will still be high. For spray applications, manufacturers claim protection for up to six or so washes, and soaking treatments are claimed to be effective for up to 50 washes.

The amount absorbed through the skin is so low that it is considered safe even in long term use. The US Army has been using permethrin treated clothing since the 1970s, with DEET as their insect repellent.

 

[dougfitz]

where did you buy that pyrethrum? they let you take it on the plane?

I understand that pyrethrum based sprays can be bought in SJPP, but I am not sure about where else. While pyrethrum and perethrim are in the same family of compounds, they are not chemically identical. Pyrethrum does not last as long as perethrim, and will require more regular re-application to maintain its effectiveness.

 

[CaminoJoy123]

Once fabric has been treated, the permethrin bonds in some way to the fibres, and resists abrasion and being re-absorbed into solution. My reading indicates that it needs the agitation of machine washing to reduce the amount of permethrin retained in the fabric, and even then the residual amounts will still be high. For spray applications, manufacturers claim protection for up to six or so washes, and soaking treatments are claimed to be effective for up to 50 washes.

The amount absorbed through the skin is so low that it is considered safe even in long term use. The US Army has been using permethrin treated clothing since the 1970s, with DEET as their insect repellent.

So about the DEET, did you take it on the plane? Or buy in Spain? Maybe a link would be good.

 

[dougfitz]

So about the DEET, did you take it on the plane? Or buy in Spain? Maybe a link would be good.

I carry a high concentration DEET insect repellent in my checked bag. DEET or picardin based repellents are available in Spain, although it might be more difficult to find high-concentration formulations that will last for more than a couple of hours. That just means having to remember to reapply them after an hour or so if they are no longer working.

 

[C clearly]

and DEET is found easily in Spain?

Yes. Go into any farmacia and ask for insect repellant. What they sell in a pharmacy is for application to human skin. You can take it from home and carry it on the plane (just like nail polish remover, alcohol, water and other liquids or gels) as long as you meet the volume restrictions.

To buy permethrin products, which are not intended for human skin, in Spain you need to go to a hardware or supplier of agricultural products. In Canada you go to the garden and pest control part of a store.

 

[pilgr]

Just for folk's information, Sawyer says don't worry about it if wet Permetherin gets on your skin. The reason you don't apply it directly to the skin is that your body metabolizes it right away and therefore is at minimal benefit for keeping bugs away. https://sawyerdirect.net/t/FAQPermetherin

 

[Deleted member 43780]

wow good thread.

Ok you are in your sprayed silk sleep sac. But your head and possible arms are exposed? And spraying head and arms with DEET is nasty. Hate that stuff.

And..and... how do you know for sure you won't pick up a bed bug on outside of the sac and he/she makes a home in your pack for a later meal off of you?

Speaking of pack... all this protection with spraying and sac etc..but you put pack, shoes, phone etc possibly, by mistake, on the bed or somewhere. Exposing such to bed bugs anyway.

Then you throw your bag on a bus or train. What stops bed bugs moving to your bag from someone's bag? By the time you catch a bus or train the P spray has lost its effect on killing anyway.

After all that hassle and worry I prefer to use my light weight tent, or bivy sac, or hammock outside. Not only get a snoreless sleep but bed bugs are too lazy to walk outside to find me.

Note: I do spray mypack with the P word. But it wears off in approx 45 days +/-.

 

[Kanga]

I can buy Deet in a roll-on, which is less messy than a spray.

 

[JillGat]

That's why I figure that a sprayed sheet won't kill the bedbugs before they bite me! And, since it doesn't smell, I tend to doubt that it would act as a deterrent.

Insects react very differently to it than people do. Though there is some evidence that bed bugs in some areas are becoming resistant to it, permethryn deters and kills mosquitos and many other insects.

 

[C clearly]

permethryn deters...

I just haven't seen any studies or reliable reports that indicate that it is an effective deterrent. (But it would be great if that is so.)

 

[JillGat]

I carried a small spray bottle with Citronella Essential Oil and sprayed on and around my bed and on my stuff and did okay. I did catch bugs one night and had to wash everything/dry on high heat. I resprayed my bag afterward. Unfortunately I sat next to a young lady on the plane returning home from Camino. She showed me bites on her arms and was sure she was bringing home some unwanted guests.

I know we've been through this before. But anyway:
1. Citronella essential oil is completely ineffective as a bedbug repellant.
2. I, however, am sensitive to it and hate it.
3. As others have said, please don't spray it around in albergues.

 

[pilgr]

And spraying head and arms with DEET is nasty. Hate that stuff.

I agree. Wrapped in a toxic Permetherin silk mummy bag, with Deet all over your exposed limbs and head. With that value proposition, I think I would opt for the red wine and bedbugs.

 

[JillGat]

I just haven't seen any studies or reliable reports that indicate that it is an effective deterrent. (But it would be great if that is so.)

There is plenty of evidence that it deters other insects, at least.

 

[Purple Backpack]

Thanks for starting this thread, pilgr. I've often wondered about this because I react horribly to bug bites and have thought of using the pretreated clothing. Everyone's opinions and research are interesting and much appreciated.

Caveat: I'm an organic recreational gardener and avoid pesticides/insecticides/herbicides like the plague . Why? Many years ago, my dad passed away from pancreatic cancer. He had gorgeous roses but used Malathion to kill the little beasties eating his rose leaves. He would come in from gardening covered with white powder from head to toe. His oncologist claimed he saw pancreatic cancer in several patients that gardened and used Malathion. It made a lifelong impression on me and I won't have poisons in or around my home.

Now, it's a long stretch from Malathion (nasty organophosphate) to Permethrin (pyrethroid) and I seriously doubt if short term exposure to a pediculicide is going to have long term effects. It's used commonly in the US for lice and scabies, though as a neurotoxin (to bugs, at least) and possible carcinogen (to mice), no one is going to claim it is 100% risk free.

So for me, I'll stay away from it as much as I can. I hate getting eaten as much as the next person, but it sounds as though lots of people are spraying, so maybe the herd will continue to keep me bug free. I've been blessed so far so will just look at the beds and keep my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, can I borrow some spray, please?

US Environmental Protection Agency fact sheet: https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/reg_actions/reregistration/fs_PC-109701_1-Jun-06.pdf

PS: Not related to bed bugs but I use Citronella (close relative to lemon grass) spray on myself as a mosquito/midgie repellent. Seems to work well and a literature search tonight didn't reveal any harmful side effects. I had a new ant infestation in the garden recently and they scooted away immediately when I burned a candle in their vicinity. Guess they didn't like the smell either, JillGat!

 

[hel&scott]

Interesting thread and I thought Charles points are well made. Likewise the view of others regarding the tangled web of trying to limit contact and control of spread.

Doug, I wouldn't advise flushing surplus spray down the drain, especially at our place where we use a worm farm to handle waste.

Purple, sorry to hear about your dad. When Scott died of pancreatic cancer earlier this year all the specialists and oncologists we saw stressed that this form of cancer wasn't linked to environmental, lifestyle or genetics, rather it was a result of the random mutations in the body and sadly not a form of cancer that could be easily screened for or show up until it was too late.

It's clear that none of us appreciate being munched on, and we all try our best to avoid it, let's just hope that the measures we take don't endanger us in other ways.

 

[dougfitz]

Doug, I wouldn't advise flushing surplus spray down the drain, especially at our place where we use a worm farm to handle waste.

You are right, I have edited my earlier post.

 

[kelleymac]

I studied toxicology some years ago-- I hold an MS Env. Toxicology, Cornell, 1998. --I would hesitate ever dousing myself or sleeping area in any toxic chemical, natural or not. Not enough research has been done on chemicals, or chemical interactions, or long term effects of chemicals for this to be safe I include pyrethrins, even though they come from flowers. -- Also everyone, be careful of using diatomaceous earth which is a naturally occurring substance, it still needs to be used within guidelines. Remember that everything is toxic if the dosage is high enough.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Not enough research has been done on chemicals,

I am not sure what that means. In the case of permethrin, it has been studied extensively by the U.S. military, the Canadian military, and a number of universities. It comes with cautions, and everyone gets to read the studies and decide if the risk is worth taking. I don't think anything is added by suggesting that continued studies would be of value. That is just me, of course, and I could be wrong.

 

[obinjatoo]

I am about to walk the Norte. Four years ago, I got into a bunch of bed bugs TWICE on the same route! I have heard a silk bag is one way of dealing with bed bugs. I have heard Pemetherin may be a deterrent....but maybe it isn't good for the environment and/or me. Suggestions?

Yes. It's a bad idea...

 

[dougfitz]

Yes. It's a bad idea...

Which, the silk bag or treating gear with permethrin? One works, the other doesn't.

 

[Purple Backpack]

I studied toxicology some years ago-- I hold an MS Env. Toxicology, Cornell, 1998. --I would hesitate ever dousing myself ...

If I may, what's your professional opinion on the clothing such as those by Ex Officio or LLBean or Colombia that claim to be insect repellant? Do you feel it is a harmful exposure or benign since it's embedded/bonded in the cloth? Common sense tells me that if it can wear away with repeated washings, it likely wears off on my skin, too. But I can't find anything scientific when I searched. Given your background, would love your thoughts on this. Thanks!

 

[Purple Backpack]

..let's just hope that the measures we take don't endanger us in other ways.. ...

As someone who has been through it, too, I am so sorry for your loss and experiencing the heartbreak of that horrible disease. I have a wicked cancer gene pool so figure it's best to live as healthy as possible without going overboard. In other words, don't touch my coffee, wine or chocolate!

Wishing you long walks filled with peace and healing...

 

[Deleted member 3000]

don't touch my coffee, wine or chocolate!

I accept discomfort on the Camino, but I won't do misery. No coffee, wine, or chocolate? Misery.

 

[kelleymac]

I am not sure what that means. In the case of permethrin, it has been studied extensively by the U.S. military, the Canadian military, and a number of universities. It comes with cautions, and everyone gets to read the studies and decide if the risk is worth taking. I don't think anything is added by suggesting that continued studies would be of value. That is just me, of course, and I could be wrong.

Yes-- it's a risk, and probably not a very big one. --Pilgrims are walking through agricultural fields where there are most probably a heck of a lot of chemicals sprayed on the fields. (I remember once after walking for days on roads in Swaziland realizing I was walking on asbestos roads.) My concern is dosage, chemical interaction and long term effects, and as I said, I'm outdated in the research-- I've been home with my kids for the last 20 years. --

 

[kelleymac]

If I may, what's your professional opinion on the clothing such as those by Ex Officio or LLBean or Colombia that claim to be insect repellant? Do you feel it is a harmful exposure or benign since it's embedded/bonded in the cloth? Common sense tells me that if it can wear away with repeated washings, it likely wears off on my skin, too. But I can't find anything scientific when I searched. Given your background, would love your thoughts on this. Thanks!

I can't give you a professional opinion, as I'm am really outdated on the research. I would hazard a guess that the chemical is bonded with the cloth and either comes out with water/soap or simply breaks down over time. My guess is that the insecticides in the cloth are going to stay there, and are probably a better way of protecting yourself than spraying yourself with DEET or other repellents that you can breathe in or soak in through your skin. I'm thinking that self application to a sleeping bag or oneself might mistakenly lead to a pretty big dose for the person. Again, always look to dosage in regards to toxicology. I was not happy with one peregrina who was spraying her bed liberally right near my bed where I was sitting. -- Here at home, I once sloshed some insecticide on my skin while diluting it-- I washed my hands, but was in the barn and couldn't find the soap and the horses started acting up, so I didn't wash thoroughly. That evening I pulled a dead tick off of me--dead as a doornail, indicating the stuff had gotten into my body-- how much? I don't know. Will it hurt me? Well, it didn't immediately. Will it interact with other chemicals inside me? I have no idea. --

 

[dougfitz]

Common sense tells me that if it can wear away with repeated washings, it likely wears off on my skin, too.

While this might appear to you to be common sense, it seems that the bonding mechanisms make permethrin abrasion resistant. So don't expect there to be a high level of transfer to the skin. The explanation I have seen is that the agitation of a washing machine is the mechanism for reducing the concentration of the permethrin in treated clothing.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I was not happy with one peregrina who was spraying her bed liberally right near my bed where I was sitting.

She was wrong on every level. It was not her property to spray. It was not her air to pollute for you. It was not her right to choose the insecticide to apply to everyone. That bed is home to hundreds of pilgrims each year. If each one sprayed, the toxicity would be unimaginable.

This thread is about using permethrin at home to treat a sleeping silk. I think it is clear beyond cavil that it is safe and effective when done in accordance with the use instructions. Scientific studies support that opinion, but others may not want to accept it. I have no dog in the hunt about opinions. I do think that the facts do not change, however.

 

[hel&scott]

I have no dog in the hunt about opinions. I do think that the facts do not change, however.

Okay, so my dog has gone off hunting free range organic rabbit. I think the point that many of us raised was that even if you treat your sleep sack (in acordance with instructions) then it's not going to mean the bugs are not going to get you, they can infect your pack, bite your arm when it lies exposed on the mattress etc. So checking the sleeping area etc before hand is just as important.
Personally I haven't had a major bed bug incident in many years of travel, and I don't rely on chemical intervention to keep me safe from all that Mother Nature can throw at us. I am also extremely sceptical of claims of chemical safety as I'm old enough to remember other great scientific claims of safety that have overtime being proven as not safe (asbestos, tobacco and tholidemide to name just a few).
But you are right, the thread was about dosing sleeping sack which is a personal choice. Gotta go now, the damn dogs after the hawk in my crop circle.

 

[Purple Backpack]

While this might appear to you to be common sense, it seems that the bonding mechanisms make permethrin abrasion resistant. So don't expect there to be a high level of transfer to the skin.

dougfitz, I always love your input. The anonymity of the internet allows me to picture you as an MIT engineer, working madly at calculations in a lab amidst hadron colliders. I do trust your opinion so, someday, maybe I'll buy that Ex Officio shirt and not worry about it. After all, there's a lot bigger things to worry about in this world than a bug shirt.

But if it's July and I'm sweating like a banshee... isn't that kind of like a washing machine? Just saying'...

 

[Purple Backpack]

That evening I pulled a dead tick off of me--dead as a doornail, indicating the stuff had gotten into my body-- --

Maybe I should worry more about all the summer evenings we ran through mosquito mist as kids when the trucks sprayed the neighborhoods! Maybe that's why I've never had a tick bite.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I agree. Wrapped in a toxic Permetherin silk mummy bag, with Deet all over your exposed limbs and head. With that value proposition, I think I would opt for the red wine and bedbugs.

Maybe because you've never been eaten alive by bedbugs!

 

[pilgr]

Maybe because you've never been eaten alive by bedbugs!

Oh contar, I was eaten on two occassions three years ago walking the Norte. I had to go to the doctor after an alergic reaction. Second time, I actually woke up in the middle of the nite and caught one crawling on me. I promptly put him in a plastic bag to show proof to the proprietor. They shut the pension down for a day, then reopened. Who knows if they really ever dealt substantively with the problem. I later looked at TripAdvisor review AFTER staying there, to read this pension had an issue with the little beggars

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I treat my pack and stuff sacks as well. Bed bugs die on the flight home.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Oh contar, I was eaten on two occassions three years ago walking the Norte. I had to go to the doctor after an alergic reaction. Second time, I actually woke up in the middle of the nite and caught one crawling on me. I promptly put him in a plastic bag to show proof to the proprietor. They shut the pension down for a day, then reopened. Who knows if they really ever dealt substantively with the problem. I later looked at TripAdvisor review AFTER staying there, to read this pension had an issue with the little beggars

It is frustrating for the proprietor or albergue folks to deal with the problem if one night later, a pilgrim comes in carrying the bugs.
The BEST solution, in my opinion, is educating pilgrims what to look for, how to deal with the issue when they DO get bedbugs, and REPORTING the bedbugs.

Maybe the proprietor dealt with the situation. Maybe not. If they shut down for two days, I imagine they did.
But I do know that a famous place in Astorga has a consistent issue with bedbugs and when I have reported it, they've just shrugged and continued to book pilgrims into the place.
It's well know in places up the trail.

In the end, all they can do is spray the heck out of the place and the mattresses - so worrying about whether or not a mattress has been sprayed is a little naive. They've most likely ALL been sprayed.
I know of one proprietor who took all the mattressess off the beds, blowtorched the metal frames, had the rooms fumigated, put NEW mattresses on the beds, and a week later a pilgrim brought in more bedbugs.

Also, I think (personally) it's important for people to report the places who do NOT treat, who do NOT care, and I wish they'd have handouts for pilgrims beginning the Camino on what to look for and what to do.

 

[dougfitz]

But if it's July and I'm sweating like a banshee... isn't that kind of like a washing machine? Just saying'...

I wondered about this, and did some more extensivce reading. It appears that it is the agitation action of the washing machine that is needed. Sweat and soaking rain don't have the same effect. Does that mean there will be no transfer? Well I have never seen that claimed, just that the level of transfer is 'below the level of concern' for adults.

The other thing about this is that, in the US, the safety of permethrin has been re-assessed at least once since it was introduced. It was still assessed as being 'below the level of concern' for the uses we are talking about here. If my memory is correct, there have been some changes to the handling and application protocols for agricultural use over time, eg to manage overspray that might result in permethrin entering water courses and unwanted application into adjacent crops.

 

[susanawee]

Thanks for the heads-up... I will stop drinking permethryn immediately! I may even stop eating rats that have been drinking it.
Actually, permethryn, used as directed (sprayed on clothing and sleeping bags and allowed to dry before use) is quite safe. They even studied pregnant women who were exposed to it and there were no problems. The military has been treating clothing of soldiers since the early 1990s. The abstract posted is misleading. Here is more information:

https://www.nap.edu/read/9274/chapter/6#56

Loved your reply JillCat.......just want to add....I soaked my silk liner in Permethrin, also most of my tshirts (cost I was also using them to sleep in), and the only bits I got, were on the exposed parts of my body (ie...my face and my hands) at three different Albergues (I am highly allergic to bed bugs by the way, so I found that sleeping inside my treated silk liner actually helped me. I also, now take my treated silk liner when I sleep anywhere away from my home)..... susanawee..

 

[HedaP]

I treat my pack and stuff sacks as well. Bed bugs die on the flight home.

I thought that too and then googled it. Now not so sure that they do die on the flight home. I think that might be another bedbug myth.
http://www.bed-bugs.co.uk/bedbugsmyths.html

 

[alexwalker]

I have bought a new sleeping bag today. Afterwards I went to a special store to buy Permetrin spray in order to spray the outside of my bag. When they heard my intention, they rang the manufacturer who strongly advised against it, for safety of health. So, I just have to check the albergues before I roll out my sleeping bag...

That said, in 8 years on different Caminos, I have never seen one.

 

[CaminoJoy123]

Is permethrin spray for gear and sleeping bags available in Spain?

Where would one find that, a pharmacy?

And the bedbug spray for the skin is sold in pharmacy, correct?

Obviously it's better to treat the gear with these chemicals before leaving for camino, but if something needs a spraying, can this be easily accomplished?

 

[C clearly]

Is permethrin spray for gear and sleeping bags available in Spain?

Yes, the insect repellent for the skin is found in a pharmacy.

Permethrin sprays would be found in an garden or agricultural supplies store. In North America we would find them in the garden supplies and pest controls.

 

[CaminoJoy123]

Yes, the insect repellent for the skin is found in a pharmacy.

Permethrin sprays would be found in an garden or agricultural supplies store. In North America we would find them in the garden supplies and pest controls.

So permethrin/permetina spray for clothing or gear is widely available in small quantities in Spain, at garden centers? Already pre-formulated?

 

[C clearly]

So permethrin/permetina spray for clothing or gear is widely available in small quantities in Spain, at garden centers? Already pre-formulated?

I don't think you will find it as easily as you will find the insect repellent in pharmacies. I saw a smallish container at the pilgrim store in SJPP.

I did see permethrin spray in the garden stores, but did not buy any, and it doesn't seem to be commonly sold to pilgrims. It is probable that in Spain (as in Canada) the spray is not specifically formulated for clothing or gear, possibly because its effectiveness is not proven. And it does not mention its use for bedbugs.

 

[trecile]

If you use the permethrin spray you will need to find a place away from other people, and animals (I'm thinking if the many cats that wander around), as the directions say to avoid contact with skin until the spray has dried.
The spray that you would use on your body is simply anything with DEET, like OFF. And please don't spray it inside the albergues, as the smell is bad and can effect other pilgrims negatively. You should actually be able to buy DEET in a non spray form.

 

[Kanga]

A poster raised a question about Clako, which is often recommended and sold on the chemins in France, including St Jean Pied de Port.

Yes, I've used Clako and also natural pyrethrum, which is the basic ingredient of Clako. Pyrethrum is made from chrysanthemums seed cases, mostly grown in the pure natural untreated environment of Tasmania. A place with a pristine environment. It is about as organic as you can get.

You can make your own by drying chrysanthemum flowers, crushing them into powder, and mixing them with water.

Which is where the hocus pocus comes in. Simply because something is naturally produced, does not make it impirically better or safer than a manufactured chemical.

Permethrin is a manufactured chemical very similar to pyrethrum, with the advantage that it does not degrade in light and lasts for many months when applied properly. In contrast, pyrethrum biodegrades quickly and breaks down in light and hence the instructions on the Clako bottle to keep applying it.

There is a bit of an argument that bedbugs are not as resistant to pyrethrum as to permethrin (because the use of pyrethrum is more expensive and less used) but I've yet to see the science.

Neither pyrethrum or permethrin is much of a bed bug deterrent, but they do kill bed bugs (if the bugs have not built up a resistance) after prolonged exposure. I treat all my sleeping gear, my backpack and all my dry bags with permethrin. My reasoning is that I don't want to be the person who carries bed bugs from one albergue to another. If a bed bug does hitch a ride in my things, hopefully the permethrin will kill it. I'd use pyrethrum except I've found that the small Clako bottle is not enough for a whole Camino, and I don't want to carry a heavy bottle. I'd probably get through a litre. I can also just imagine the reaction I'd get from other pilgrims if I started spraying indiscriminately. Whereas my pre-treated permethrin stuff is inoffensive.

Deet does not kill bed bugs, but does deter them. The stronger the concentration of Deet (and the worse the smell), the longer the deterrent effect. So I use Deet on myself each night, on any exposed skin, when going to bed. I've found a roll-on, so no spray to upset others.

Edited to include - take care with high concentrations of Deet coming into contact with your gear, especially rain gear. It can degrade plastic and synthetics. You don't want it leaking inside your pack.

 

[Bradypus]

Which is where the hocus pocus comes in. Simply because something is naturally produced, does not make it impirically better or safer than a manufactured chemical.

It is strange how often people assume that because something is "natural" that means it is safe and benign. Curare, strychnine and botulinus toxin are all natural products but I wouldn't be in any great hurry to test them on myself

 

[dougfitz]

Good old Clako. I love it, mainly because it smells so nice.

To add context to @Kanga's post, there was query raised about the use of Clako that has 'disappeared' in the meantime. She didn't introduce the product out of the blue, even if now it might appear so - her post was an answer to a question that no longer appears to exist!

 

[bhavagrahidasa]

A poster raised a question about Clako, which is often recommended and sold on the chemins in France, including St Jean Pied de Port.

Yes, I've used Clako and also natural pyrethrum, which is the basic ingredient of Clako. Pyrethrum is made from chrysanthemums seed cases, mostly grown in the pure natural untreated environment of Tasmania. A place with a pristine environment. It is about as organic as you can get.

You can make your own by drying chrysanthemum flowers, crushing them into powder, and mixing them with water.

Which is where the hocus pocus comes in. Simply because something is naturally produced, does not make it impirically better or safer than a manufactured chemical.

Permethrin is a manufactured chemical very similar to pyrethrum, with the advantage that it does not degrade in light and lasts for many months when applied properly. In contrast, pyrethrum biodegrades quickly and breaks down in light and hence the instructions on the Clako bottle to keep applying it.

There is a bit of an argument that bedbugs are not as resistant to pyrethrum as to permethrin (because the use of pyrethrum is more expensive and less used) but I've yet to see the science.

Neither pyrethrum or permethrin is much of a bed bug deterrent, but they do kill bed bugs (if the bugs have not built up a resistance) after prolonged exposure. I treat all my sleeping gear, my backpack and all my dry bags with permethrin. My reasoning is that I don't want to be the person who carries bed bugs from one albergue to another. If a bed bug does hitch a ride in my things, hopefully the permethrin will kill it. I'd use pyrethrum except I've found that the small Clako bottle is not enough for a whole Camino, and I don't want to carry a heavy bottle. I'd probably get through a litre. I can also just imagine the reaction I'd get from other pilgrims if I started spraying indiscriminately. Whereas my pre-treated permethrin stuff is inoffensive.

Deet does not kill bed bugs, but does deter them. The stronger the concentration of Deet (and the worse the smell), the longer the deterrent effect. So I use Deet on myself each night, on any exposed skin, when going to bed. I've found a roll-on, so no spray to upset others.

Edited to include - take care with high concentrations of Deet coming into contact with your gear, especially rain gear. It can degrade plastic and synthetics. You don't want it leaking inside your pack.

Thank you so much @Kanga for your answer to my now deleted question. I realised that I did not know the rules around discussing named products and thought it best to delete it until I brushed up on my forum rules knowledge.

Your reply has been very helpful. I tend to be overly cynical by default despite best efforts not to be and was ready to totally dismiss the natural spray but was intrigued that the B&B I was going to use insisted on people using it. Made me wonder if it was indeed some miracle formula. I really appreciate your detailed reply which has been very helpful.

 

[marigold]

To add context to @Kanga's post, there was query raised about the use of Clako that has 'disappeared' in the meantime. She didn't introduce the product out of the blue, even if now it might appear so - her post was an answer to a question that no longer appears to exist!

So it seems that the best advice from you all is to use a silk liner and treat it with permethrin as well as spraying skin with Deet? Do you think a silk liner is enough in September? Would I need a blanket as well? I had decided to bring my sleeping bag. In which case I should treat that with permethrin? Quite difficult and costly. I would have sprayed it with Deet but it might dissolve it! I'm feeling quite disheartened and scared about it all.

 

[MaxfromMO]

I am about to walk the Norte. Four years ago, I got into a bunch of bed bugs TWICE on the same route! I have heard a silk bag is one way of dealing with bed bugs. I have heard Pemetherin may be a deterrent....but maybe it isn't good for the environment and/or me. Suggestions?

Or, you could just sleep with Chrysanthemums.

 

[C clearly]

I'm feeling quite disheartened and scared about it all.

You have been on the Camino several times. What is so different about this time?

So it seems that the best advice from you all is to use a silk liner and treat it with permethrin as well as spraying skin with Deet?

The advice from the forum is "all over the map" so you will just have to pick something that seems to suit you best! There is no clear answer, and it seems that most people do not get bitten by bedbugs. For those who do (like me) it is usually just a few bites. If we weren't so paranoid about the idea and the yuck factor, it would not be such a big issue. The good news is that bedbugs are easy to kill - heat them up to about 50C or 120F for 20 minutes.

Furthermore, bedbugs do not bite through fabric, whether silk or cotton, whether sleeping bag or liner. They find exposed skin. That is why I suggest insect repellent on your face, neck, hands and arms, if you are concerned. Rather than a spray, I prefer to take a lotion that can be applied with more care.

The decision to take liner or sleeping bag should be based on which will be more comfortable for you to sleep in. You are the best person to make a guess on that. I don't spray my bag with permethrin, but you might choose to do so. I now carry a very light fitted sheet that is sprayed, and use my sleeping bag on top of that. Permethrin is presumably quite safe, but I understand why many people don't want to use it

Get a large dry bag (for example like this) that your whole pack will fit in, at night, to keep bugs from entering your pack when they are more active at night. Or use a plastic garbage bag, tied at the top. Get another dry bag (or plastic bag that can be tied tightly) to put your sleeping stuff into during the day. If no bites appear by the time you reach your destination the next day, you are probably safe. If bites appear, then you should go straight to a clothes dryer and put all of your sleeping stuff (put it dry, without washing, for best effect) for a cycle.

Finally, decontaminate everything before going home (or carefully immediately upon arrival). See these comprehensive guidelines.

 

[Deleted member 56069]

After four Camino's and zero bed bug issues I personally would have a hard time recommending soaking either your equipment or yourself with any type of insecticide.
Perhaps the fact all my trips have been in early April with cooler spring weather I have avoided bed bug prime time. I can't recall anyone I talked to on my four Camino's that had issues either. Maybe I have just been very lucky.
Bed bug bites would be annoying for sure, but not lethal.
The same can't be said for the chemicals to keep them away as who knows the effects of long term exposure to these chemicals?
For those that would suggest I simply don't react to their bites, I can tell you that I do as I found out a number of years ago in a rather disappointing time share I stayed at in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
It would be sad if any potential Camino candidates get turned off ultimately doing one because of an unreasonable fear of bed bugs.

 

[marigold]

You have been on the Camino several times. What is so different about this time?

The advice from the forum is "all over the map" so you will just have to pick something that seems to suit you best! There is no clear answer, and it seems that most people do not get bitten by bedbugs. For those who do (like me) it is usually just a few bites. If we weren't so paranoid about the idea and the yuck factor, it would not be such a big issue. The good news is that bedbugs are easy to kill - heat them up to about 50C or 120F for 20 minutes.

Furthermore, bedbugs do not bite through fabric, whether silk or cotton, whether sleeping bag or liner. They find exposed skin. That is why I suggest insect repellent on your face, neck, hands and arms, if you are concerned. Rather than a spray, I prefer to take a lotion that can be applied with more care.

The decision to take liner or sleeping bag should be based on which will be more comfortable for you to sleep in. You are the best person to make a guess on that. I don't spray my bag with permethrin, but you might choose to do so. I now carry a very light fitted sheet that is sprayed, and use my sleeping bag on top of that. Permethrin is presumably quite safe, but I understand why many people don't want to use it

Get a large dry bag (for example like this) that your whole pack will fit in, at night, to keep bugs from entering your pack when they are more active at night. Or use a plastic garbage bag, tied at the top. Get another dry bag (or plastic bag that can be tied tightly) to put your sleeping stuff into during the day. If no bites appear by the time you reach your destination the next day, you are probably safe. If bites appear, then you should go straight to a clothes dryer and put all of your sleeping stuff (put it dry, without washing, for best effect) for a cycle.

Finally, decontaminate everything before going home (or carefully immediately upon arrival). See these comprehensive guidelines.

Thank you C clearly - you have put it very clearly! I have already got bags to put stuff in. I'm going to buy a permethrin spray and will spray my rucksack, nightclothes and sleeping bag. All the posts seem to say that you have to put everything in the hot dryer if you get bitten but as you say, it would only be necessary to put the night stuff in (as everything else is in plastic bags). A question about the hot dryer: I think the light polyester type clothing would melt or shrink in a hot dryer wouldn't it? I don't usually use it but I've just bought some.
Yes, I've been on the camino several times and have never even thought about bugs, but it was always in the spring.
I'm scared about bringing one home and wondering where I would find a dryer big enough for my rucksack!

 

[C clearly]

will spray my rucksack, nightclothes and sleeping bag

I would not spray my night clothes.

I think the light polyester type clothing would melt or shrink in a hot dryer wouldn't it?

In a commercial dryer, you probably don't need the hottest setting. "Regular hot" should do, and give it more time if you are worried. Sure it isn't recommended for best care of synthetic clothes, but they shouldn't melt at 50C.

where I would find a dryer big enough for my rucksack!

You could ruin your pack in a tumble dryer (I have done so). Put it in a freezer instead. A decent freezer goes down to -17C, which will kill them in a few days. If your freezer isn't that cold, leave it there a couple of weeks longer. Or, spray the backpack and put it in a closed plastic bag for a few days. Then be sure to let it dry and air thoroughly before putting it away.

I have books, papers, odds and ends that I either inspect, or inspect and put in the freezer. My electronics are simply inspected.

All of this is aided if your packing is minimal and well organized.

 

[dougfitz]

So it seems that the best advice from you all is to use a silk liner and treat it with permethrin as well as spraying skin with Deet? Do you think a silk liner is enough in September? Would I need a blanket as well? I had decided to bring my sleeping bag. In which case I should treat that with permethrin? Quite difficult and costly. I would have sprayed it with Deet but it might dissolve it! I'm feeling quite disheartened and scared about it all.

First, you can decide not to do anything at all about bed bugs and other insect pests. If you don't want to treat your gear with chemicals, irrespective of whether they are derived from plants or synthesized, no matter how safe they might have been proven to be, that is entirely your choice.
Secondly, if you do decide to treat clothing and gear, permethrin is a long lasting and safe treatment option. Soaking rather than spraying clothes gives longer lasting effects if you do wash your clothes. Sprayed clothes will require the treatment to be re-applied after about half a dozen machine washes, compared to about 50 machine washes for soaked clothes. Pyrethrum is even less durable, and will need regular re-application.
Thirdly, you should not treat clothing that comes into contact with moist areas of your body, so treat outer garments, not underwear. If you sleep naked, don't treat your sleeping bag liner, but treat your sleeping bag. Or you could wear underwear (untreated!) or other sleepwear.
Fourthly, if you have walked without being bitten in the past, that is chance, not proof that bed bugs don't exist and are a problem for other people.
Fifthly, whether you treat your clothing and sleeping gear or not, and you want to protect areas of your body that might still be exposed (face, hands, arms, etc) then use an insect repellent. DEET and picardin based products are proven and effective, but you may want to choose something else.

 

[dougfitz]

After four Camino's and zero bed bug issues I personally would have a hard time recommending soaking either your equipment or yourself with any type of insecticide.

Walking without having been bitten is chance (or luck). Treating gear and clothing is a sensible precaution, but ultimately a personal choice.

And so far, no one has suggested soaking themselves or someone else in insecticide! I don't know where you got that from.

Bed bug bites would be annoying for sure, but not lethal.

Maybe not fatal, but in some cases quite debilitating. My godson needed to spend a few days in hospital after a severe reaction to bed bug bites. While that isn't going to be the outcome for everyone, implying that one should somehow 'tough it out' makes no sense to me. Taking measures to avoid the problem in the first place does make sense.

The same can't be said for the chemicals to keep them away as who knows the effects of long term exposure to these chemicals?

I'm sorry, but both permethrin and DEET have been in long term use and permethrin has had at least one re-assessment in the US. There are issues with prolonged and regular use that are well known, such as with agricultural workers who handle insecticides regularly as part of their work. There are also well established protocols for these circumstances and for occasional use to treat clothing and other gear. This statement is just classic scare-mongering.

It would be sad if any potential Camino candidates get turned off ultimately doing o e because of an unreasonable fear of bed bugs.

You are right, and one way of dealing with that fear is to take reasonable prophylactic measures. Treat your clothing and gear before you leave if you are concerned. But I will say it again - that is a personal choice.

You may find that you do your entire camino without being bitten - that is chance. If you are bitten and react badly - that is a combination of chance and your own physiology. I see taking measures to reduce the chance of being bitten as entirely sensible.

 

[Elizabeth-o]

I am about to walk the Norte. Four years ago, I got into a bunch of bed bugs TWICE on the same route! I have heard a silk bag is one way of dealing with bed bugs. I have heard Pemetherin may be a deterrent....but maybe it isn't good for the environment and/or me. Suggestions?

Nothing helped me either trip, and I tried everything that had been suggested. They just like me.

 

[Deleted member 56069]

I am not sure if the platform this forum is built on allows the construction of a poll, but it would be interesting to see among the membership how many have actually suffered from a bed bug problem.
It is certainly a frequently asked question, curious to see how wide spread and common an issue it really is.
So for the veteran members here or administrators, can we set up a poll if the forum platform will allow one?
This would be useful information for people to decide on what steps they wish to take on their Camino against prevention.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

it would be interesting to see among the membership how many have actually suffered from a bed bug problem.

If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France