Input for Rewilding Business

[Gwaihir]

Hi Peregrinos!

As some of you may know, I found my calling after the Camino.
I´m now resolved to build a business around "ReWilding". ReWilding is about "undomesticating our bodies and minds", and the idea is that people have domesticated themselves to the degree of becoming completely alienated from nature, and from their own nature (internal voice, intuition etc).

I have a good idea of what I want, but I would love some input from you peregrinos because you might have thought of something that I have not thought of. I am specially interested in the question "how do you think people have domesticated themselves" and "why is there a need for people to rewild". Feel free to voice your thoughts even if they are not exactly within those areas.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Cheers, Gwaihir

 

[Turga]

Sounds interesting! There was a geek in my country some years ago who build a kind of business around a similar idea. It seemed to rely on the assumption that you would turn into a better person if you ran around in the forest naked doing ‘primal screams’. He went out of business as it turned out to be a bit scaring to people walking in the forests or children playing there.

Not meaning to discourage you, just saying….

 

[Deleted member 76633]

There has been some comment here in the UK about the increase in wildlife activity during our national lockdown. We live in the countryside close to a forest, and we've seen more animals in terms of numbers and frequency of sightings than before.

So rewilding may mean humans retreating and leaving nature to get on with what it does best. By implication rewilding does not need input - just benign neglect.

 

[Kitsambler]

In my personal opinion, we become seduced by comfort and convenience. Like most seductions, this is a gradual progression that we are barely aware of, until it is too late. But take heed, evangelising for any conversion -- convincing people they need to change (anything) -- requires first to make sure they are feeling the pain.

 

[Gwaihir]

you would turn into a better person if you ran around in the forest naked doing ‘primal screams’.

I think pretty much anyone would go out of business that way haha!

My businessplan is more focused on bushcrafting, methods to become more confident by showing people they can withstand natural things etc. I´m not going to post the entire plan on here but you get the idea. No insanity stuff. And no trampling all over nature and leaving it flattened.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I have known about "rewilding" for years.

I also have a bit of experience on both sides of this topic as I sold my house a few years back, bought a van, and began traveling the USA. I did this AFTER walking the Camino many times, and realizing just how little it takes to make one happy. One thing I loved most about it was the feeling of FREEDOM from those possessions that I realized were weighing me down. Another was the ability to enjoy the wonder of God's creation. I'd move my van every week or two to a different location, and so I had a "different front yard" to wake up to. I slept like a rock, being so close to the earth. I'd wake up before dawn, make my coffee, and watch the beautiful sunrise every morning! At night I'd go to sleep as soon as the sun went down. I walked every day. I watched wildlife. I ate less and healthier because I had no refrigeration. I felt better than I'd felt in years.

I grew up on a farm, and so I spent my childhood days outside. I didn't realize until living in my van how much living in a sticks/bricks house limited my life, my joy, and my health.

Then in December of last year, breast cancer visited me. I spent a few months in my son's house recovering from surgery and was just looking forward to getting back on the road, when my elderly mother took yet another fall and asked me to live with her and help her. Regretting it now, I took the bait. I helped her sell her house, sold my van, pooled my savings with her cash, and bought a house with her, and now I'm feeling "stuck" inside again. Though it was fun (like a birthday party) opening the boxes I had put in storage with things I loved, and handling them all again, I have realized that for me, the freedom and joy of living close to nature far outweighs owning and caring for possessions.

As a sidenote, and this is my own personal opinion, I feel my breast cancer was caused by radiation from my cellphone. I have MCS and am VERY sensitive to electromagnetic energy. This is genetic. My grandmother had a box of about a dozen watches when she died. She'd wear one for about a week, and it would stop and never run again. Street lights turn on when I walk under them. The buzzing of a television remote drives me crazy. It's weird, I know, but true. At one time, I had laptop that required I rest my wrist on when I used it. My wrist would quickly get hot and achy. I had to get rid of it. Now the mouse on the computer hurts my hand. It gets hot and achy, which is why I'm not on here as much. Before I found my cancer, I noticed my left arm was constantly aching and numb. The doctors could find nothing wrong. I hold my phone in my left hand when I use it, and when I was in the van, I used the phone for internetting, which means I was on it a LOT! Now that I'm aware of the issue, I stay offline and off the phone much as possible. I turn my phone off at night and leave it in a different room, I sleep better, and I do my best not to use it for being online. I know some of you will laugh, but I believe what I'm saying is true. I believe the radiation from the phone is dangerous. You can post all the scientific studies you want. I know my body and what it feels. My gut tells me and I believe my gut.

Being out in nature, out in the middle of the desert or forest with no houses around me, going barefoot, breathing clean air, walking, gave me the opportunity not to be distracted by EMFs, television, radio, internet, shopping, and I found more peace of mind.

I'm a fan of rewilding!
Best wishes for your success!

 

[Turga]

I think pretty much anyone would go out of business that way haha!

My businessplan is more focused on bushcrafting, methods to become more confident by showing people they can withstand natural things etc. I´m not going to post the entire plan on here but you get the idea. No insanity stuff. And no trampling all over nature and leaving it flattened.

Great! I wish you the best of luck.

 

[NualaOC]

There's lots of good research on how spending time in nature enhances wellbeing - I think your idea is a sound and interesting one. I've always felt that simply being outdoors every day is a very significant part of the positive experience of a Camino - and also a big factor in the post-camino blues.

The challenge (for any business) lies in how to make a living from something we're passionate about! I've seen people combining rewilding/nature therapy a part of a broader service, such as outdoor education or coaching. It's definitely worth giving it try and seeing where it takes you. Good luck!

 

[Helen1]

Never heard the term rewilding before. I’m not 100% sure I agree that becoming alienated from nature means that you are alienated from your nature but I see where you’re heading. Couple of responses to your question about how people have domesticated themselves:

I think it’s easy to become divorced from time/your body clock/tiredness because of the structure of a modern working day and, in protestant countries at least, that sense of a work ethic, being productive and not wasting time so that every hour is filled with things (I’m thinking of all those get up at “5am to achieve your goals” articles).

I think there’s something around trusting your own judgement in the internet age. Even for simple things like picking a restaurant – do you wander round and a find a place you like the look of, or do some research on the internet to find a place with food that you’ll like which has good reviews?

I’ve never gotten on very well with mindfulness, I am too much of a day dreamer and I quite enjoy letting my thoughts take me where they want to go but I did enjoy a mindful eating session I did about taking the time to enjoy and savouring food rather than just eating and seeing food as fuel.

I can’t think how to articulate this but I think there’s something around COVID and risk/fear that we all need to think about. We probably need recalibrate from time to time and understand where we are on the spectrum of being safe/taking risks. Sleeping outside in a woods (for example) isn’t something that many of us feel comfortable with and probably wouldn’t ever consider doing but I suspect it’s far less risky activity than eating in a restaurant in a COVID hotspot which some of us would do.

 

[simply B]

@Gwaihir -

I like the concept but then I am one of those people completely comfortable with long treks outdoors, be it for a day or weeks. And, not just the Camino but days at a time living off the land in the back-country of Montana and Idaho. (I ate a lot of fish!)

For the last month post-retirement, I have spent the entirety of every day outside performing yard rehabilitation chores and "bathing in nature" has been wonderful for my mental clarity and strength....in addition to refreshing old skills and learning some new ones.

If you need someone to bounce ideas off of, please feel free to PM me. In the last 40 years, I cannot remember how many "startups" or "do-overs" I have done and only one was "hi-tech".

I have insights into legal, regulatory, company formation, budget planning, and cash flow that may be useful to you. (Or maybe not...it's not like I am charging anything! ) [EDIT: The chief value that I can offer is not to take the place of your lawyer and accountant but rather to help refine the business concept and thus your questions to them so their advice can be more efficient and focused to your needs.]

My time is still at a premium as I try to complete a lot of chores before the snow flies but I will do what I can with the time available to me. After that my time will open up a bit.

B

 

[Robo]

Sounds really interesting. Why not organise a Zoom chat we can join?

 

[Kiwi-family]

@Anniesantiago the sacrifice you are making in looking after your mother is honorable.....and does not mean you will never again be on the road. Wishing you well.

As for rewilding....some of us grew up in the city and simply getting into creation for the first time was an immense excitement!

 

[Anamiri]

Its only now that I realise what a great childhood I had. I grew up on a farm, and we spent our time outdoors making huts, damming creeks, looking for birds, bush whacking and playing with our farm pets. Like little wild things. We grew up capable, and happy in our own company. We would even sleep in our tree huts or in the bush on fine nights. It would take both of us to get my dog up a tree.
I once appropriated and dragged a farm gate up a tree to use as the base of a treehut. Another time my sister and I managed to drag a large window frame balanced on an old pram base to the river, across 2 kms of rough ground and a swamp, to make a raft (two 44 gal drums fitted just nicely in the frame). (It later broke loose during a flood and broke our downstream neighbour's water wheel but that is another story) My father could never believe the amount of effort we would go to for our adventures. Miss-spent energy he thought - but we know from our grandparents that my parents had similar childhoods. We were under strict instructions not to start a fire or electrocute ourselves (easy to do on a farm) but apart from that we were free spirits.
My father was oddly paranoid about us walking on the road (afraid we would get run over by a milk tanker) but was fine with us playing in the river and bush all day, or following the river and trespassing across 5 farms to play with our friends, dodging electric fences, bulls, geese and our neighbours emus. (A bird that big is truly terrifying).
We were great foragers, and knew what was edible and what wasn't - we learnt that from our mother.
Both my sister and I eventually moved to the city for work, but we both need a level of nature/outdoors in our lives to feel happy. Its an actual physical need. More than a day trapped in a house or office and I have cabin fever, and just have to get out - even if its just a walk around the neighborhood, in any weather. I dont know how many gym memberships I've wasted before I realised that I need my exercise outdoors, not on a treadmill. I dont even care if its dark or raining.
I have a cottage up north on the coast in a tiny rural fishing hamlet, with amazing views of the sea and farmland where I escape the city and spend every minute that I can.
My sister says she can tell by my voice if I'm at the beach, I sound different when I'm there. We spend a lot of our time outside there, on farms, bush tracks or out on boats. Its my happy place - where you will usually find me covered in sand, salt, dirt and dog hair. My aunt is building a walkway, my cousin is clearing land to make it farmable, another cousin has a massive garden. We are an outdoors type of family having all grown up near the sea on farms.
Our grandkids still love going to the farm, camping down by the river and playing in the bush. They're not that confident around the stock though, and once its dark they stick pretty close to me - the night noises freak them out. There are feral peacocks all over the place and they shriek loudly all night. They are also not confident to forage, if it hasnt come from the supermarket they are unsure.
But they will never know the feeling of being free like we were, walking out of the house and across the farm with no idea when we would be back, and happy to lie in the dirt and watch the stars, or follow tracks just to see where they went.

 

[wayfarer]

"how do you think people have domesticated themselves" and "why is there a need for people to rewild".

Modern society has become totally dependent on others to feed and clothe them IMO, it is said that we are only three days away from hunger as we depend entirely on food supply to the stores, after whats in the fridge runs out we are in trouble.
I would like to see the "basics" being taught in every school, ie how to grow your own vegetables and both boys and girls being shown how to wash, iron and sew a buttom on their own clothes. Also to be able to wire a plug, fit a lightbulb, check the oil and water on a car and change a tyre, these are all basic everyday things but so few kids and even adults know how to do them. These would be my thoughts on rewilding.

 

[Turga]

I would like to see the "basics" being taught in every school, ie how to grow your own vegetables and both boys and girls being shown how to wash, iron and sew a buttom on their own clothes. Also to be able to wire a plug, fit a lightbulb, check the oil and water on a car and change a tyre, these are all basic everyday things but so few kids and even adults know how to do them.

Now, don't be too ambitious

 

[wayfarer]

Now, don't be too ambitious

I know some adults who would have difficulty with this.

 

[josephmcclain]

I am all for your idea. and hope you can make it a reality! For some backup look at David Attenborough ´s new film ¨Life on our planet¨

 

[JohnMcM]

I think I understand what you are aiming for. I'm not sure though that the answer I am about to post will advance the discussion - but you're getting it anyway

THIS POST IS NOT A POLITICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL STATEMENT. It is merely a reply to a pilgrim's request for our thoughts.

For me ReWilding means two things. One, helping nature to recover and do what it does best, with the second being returning somewhat to yesteryear and helping nature at the same time. I'll try to explain.

ReWilding One : Leave the house wrapped up in our all weather gear, drive to a location where we meet like-minded people. Plant young trees, clear a riverbank, pick up plastic from a beach shoreline and such like. Go to the pub/ cafe, pat ourselves on the back for a job well done. Feel good we are doing our bit for the future of our great-grandchildren. Drive back home. I do that

ReWilding Two: I wonder how many people in the so-called 'First World' have forgotten or have never learned how to stay warm and dry without double glazing, central heating, man-made fibres and the energy and plastic needs to provide the same or near the same level of comfort. Imagine how we could help nature simply by knowing how to stay as warm and dry as possible without using man-made stuff.
How about learning how to repair, make do and mend rather than buy new. For those reading this, please let me ask you this. If you have grown children do they know how to sew a button on, repair a small tear in their clothes, bake a cake using natural ingredients, clean your house windows without using detergents?

I'm not being critical or judgemental. I simply reply to the OP.

Buen (loving our planet) Camino

Wayfarer - just seen your post. We are of the same mind. I could have saved myself a lot of one-finger tippy-tappy typing.

 

[Jeff Mayor]

Hi Peregrinos!

As some of you may know, I found my calling after the Camino.
I´m now resolved to build a business around "ReWilding". ReWilding is about "undomesticating our bodies and minds", and the idea is that people have domesticated themselves to the degree of becoming completely alienated from nature, and from their own nature (internal voice, intuition etc).

I have a good idea of what I want, but I would love some input from you peregrinos because you might have thought of something that I have not thought of. I am specially interested in the question "how do you think people have domesticated themselves" and "why is there a need for people to rewild". Feel free to voice your thoughts even if they are not exactly within those areas.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Cheers, Gwaihir

Meditate; Environment is stronger than willpower.

 

[Anamiri]

Modern society has become totally dependent on others to feed and clothe them IMO, it is said that we are only three days away from hunger as we depend entirely on food supply to the stores, after whats in the fridge runs out we are in trouble.
I would like to see the "basics" being taught in every school, ie how to grow your own vegetables and both boys and girls being shown how to wash, iron and sew a buttom on their own clothes. Also to be able to wire a plug, fit a lightbulb, check the oil and water on a car and change a tyre, these are all basic everyday things but so few kids and even adults know how to do them. These would be my thoughts on rewilding.

That made me laugh. A few weeks ago I was running a yarn shop for a friend in hospital, and a woman came in with a sweater (purchased not handknitted) that she had accidentally burnt a hole in. She thought she'd put a button over the hole.
You should have seen the look on her face when I explained she would need to darn or patch the hole first before she could sew the button on.
In the end I charged her $10 to darn and sew the button on! My friends thought I should have charged her $20.

 

[Tincatinker]

I used to contribute to the training of Fast Streamers entering the Civil Service. One task set was to write down the requirements for creating a cup of tea.
Very few got beyond tap, kettle, tea pot etc. A few made it to acquire water, tea leaves, milk and sugar. One, and only one in my recall, started with cultivation of Camellia Sinensis and Sugar Cane, colonization, the domestication of cattle and the Promethium gift of fire. She did well I thought at the time and I still watch her career with interest. (Cynics who interpret career as a uncontrolled descent have my sympathies)

 

[AlwynWellington]

ReWilding is about "undomesticating our bodies

I grew up on a farm, and so I spent my childhood days outside

It seems to me you two are opposite sides of the same coin.

My contribution is this: in all things moderation - in an average month spend time at home and in the burbs and in the central city and away from all that. And whatever else takes your fancy. But all of them. And many other things besides.

Kia kaha, kia maia, kia manawanui (Be strong, brave and patient) and get going when you.

 

[ApproachingBliss]

Hi Peregrinos!

As some of you may know, I found my calling after the Camino.
I´m now resolved to build a business around "ReWilding". ReWilding is about "undomesticating our bodies and minds", and the idea is that people have domesticated themselves to the degree of becoming completely alienated from nature, and from their own nature (internal voice, intuition etc).

I agree with this 100%. I live in the US so I'll tell you how we've domesticated ourselves to eat the standard american diet. In the past, people died of diseases of not having enough, and things that antibiotics will now cure, but now we have divorced ourselves from the idea that what we eat has directly impacts our health. When we did this, we started dying of cardiovascular, diabetes, strokes, auto immune diseases, all diseases of too MUCH. That's what has happened here. It's not like we can use moderation because we've tipped the scales of 'normal eating' so far into unhealthy territory that if we only eat moderately like an american, we'll only get moderately ill with the most chronic diseases. We've already alienated ourselves from nature, and from our own nature.

It's worthwhile to question the things we take for granted, our ideas, our behaviors, our situations and see how far we've gone off the track. It may inspire us to create a different path. Good luck with your endeavor.

 

[Thomas1962]

Business and "ReWilding" sounds to me like making money by learning people how to spend less money. My way to things is just do things myself. If it catches me it shows of to others. From there on business can make a start, if you choose to.

 

[David Tallan]

Hi Peregrinos!

As some of you may know, I found my calling after the Camino.
I´m now resolved to build a business around "ReWilding". ReWilding is about "undomesticating our bodies and minds", and the idea is that people have domesticated themselves to the degree of becoming completely alienated from nature, and from their own nature (internal voice, intuition etc).

I have a good idea of what I want, but I would love some input from you peregrinos because you might have thought of something that I have not thought of. I am specially interested in the question "how do you think people have domesticated themselves" and "why is there a need for people to rewild". Feel free to voice your thoughts even if they are not exactly within those areas.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Cheers, Gwaihir

I guess it depends on what you mean by "domesticated" and "wild". I was just reading an interesting thread about cat domestication and it seemed to me that many of the characteristics of domestication (able to live together in groups, evolving more pro-social behaviour, etc.) are pretty good things.

That said, I think that many of us lead unbalanced lives and are insufficiently aware or mindful of our connections with the larger universe. This manifests as alienation from nature and lack of perception of our internal voice, intuition, etc. I think any initiative to help us centre more on ourselves as part of a greater system, connect us with the broader nature and our place in it, and open us up to our own natures as part of that broader whole is a worthwhile endeavor. I'm just not sure that it will make us "wilder".

So, if I build on my own spin on reversing the alienation you talk about - more about becoming connected (or aware of connections) than becoming "wild", I would say that there is a definite need. Without becoming mindful of these connections and in touch with the internal voice and intuition that may follow, I don't think we will ever be able to successfully tackle the wicked problems that society faces today: either in connecting to the wilder world (environmental and climate change problems) or in connecting to each other (poverty, injustice, hatred, etc.). What greater need is there?

 

[MarkyD]

There's lots of good research on how spending time in nature enhances wellbeing - I think your idea is a sound and interesting one. I've always felt that simply being outdoors every day is a very significant part of the positive experience of a Camino - and also a big factor in the post-camino blues.

The challenge (for any business) lies in how to make a living from something we're passionate about! I've seen people combining rewilding/nature therapy a part of a broader service, such as outdoor education or coaching. It's definitely worth giving it try and seeing where it takes you. Good luck!

That's very thoughtful and interesting reply. It makes a lot of sense to me. I hope you are recovering well from your health issues. Looking after our elders is an honorable thing to do, even when it means sacrificing our own goals, no matter how balanced and right for you they May seem.
The theme of your reply and that of the OP and other comments here, seems to be that "rewilding" could be about learning to let go of something. That "something" might be physical convenience, accumulation of material things, dependence on something or independence from something else, etc .
My first Camino gave me that spark of feeling to be disconnected from many daily routines and habits, at the same time connecting me to nature and taking life more as it comes. I'm not so convinced of "rewilding" as a therapy or concept, although I think there could be much to benefit and interest some people.
It's interesting what you said about the phone in your hand and cancer. In 2017 I was diagnosed with colon cancer, that ended up as stage 3 diagnosis after the tumour was removed. The doctors at the time discouraged me from thinking about the causes, presumably because I needed to focus on getting through the operation and then adjunct chemotherapy. But I had the nagging feeling about possible causes. Some were related to stress at work, emotional stress in relationships and living in cities. But I also remember that around about the time the tumour would have started to form also coincided with excessive use of laptop computer, which I often used to work on at night with it resting against my stomach. I even recall the heat sensation as you mentioned, which was over the same area where the tumour was detected.
Although, I still use tech devices, like you I am more careful about how I use them. Levels of radiation from tech devices are given safe operating parameters that are effectively written or approved by lobbying of the very companies that make all these devices. It does make you question what is being conveniently swept under the carpet at times.

 

[Gwaihir]

For people who love oversight (and myself), I have put "Reasons to ReWild" in a bit of a list.
These are great ideas and you have definitely given me some new ones. Thank you for the inspiration so far!

• Being Grounded: recharging yourself by being in close contact with the Earth for prolonged periods of time. Can be beneficial in a time when we´re surrounded by electromagnetic frequency.
• Getting out of our addiction to comfort. Learning that a person can embrace discomfort, and still live (!) and be happy.
• Getting out of our addiction to convenience. Learning that things can be difficult and even challenging and we can face them.
• Resourcefulness. Learning how to find solutions for basic problems without externalizing that to the internet or a big chain store.
• Confidence. Learning to solve our own problems may teach us to trust in our own judgement and decision-making skills.
• Gratitude. Learning to deal with challenge and simple living may give us new appreciation for things that we have.
• Connection. Being in nature may enhance our feeling of connection to nature and may encourage us to aid nature. Not unimportant: connection to people.
• Demonetizing: Learning that it is possible to live on a small budget, OR not spend money on so much on throw-away products.
• "De-cluttering": you generally need less "stuff" in nature than you would have in your actual house.
• Healthier eating habits due to the physical energy spent in nature and due to awareness of things that grow in the soil. Knowledge of the nutritional value of healthy plants.
• Mind-Body Connection. A better understanding of the relationship between our environment and our mental and physical health.
• Business and Hastiness. Getting out of a "Have-To" mindset and into a mindset of "Love-To".
• Mindfulness: learning how to be in the moment, instead of "in" technology or in the future.
• Detachment and Re-calibration. Being in nature helps us zoom out and look at the big picture.
• Inner Guidance. The connection with (our own) nature might help us listen to our own intuition, to imagination, and be inspired.
• Ability to Let Go. The ability to let go of things makes it possible to change and be renewed. It encourages personal growth.

 

[henrythedog]

It’s not just humans who have this issue to contend with.

The slightly more adventurous wolf who, several millennia ago, saw the fire and thought: “if I’m brave enough to go there those humans might give me some food” had no idea that s/he was consigning some of their ancestors to being dressed in Christmas outfits and carried around in handbags.

 

[C clearly]

All of these seem like good things to consider in our lives - getting a balance that is healthy, happy and thoughtful of the environment and other people. However, I do not feel the need to adopt new terminology or turn the ideas into an ideology.

 

[Gwaihir]

It´s just a name. It is meant to describe a set of practices that can help people with topics specifically tied into "nature", "inner nature", and a level of transformation that includes both ourselves and the planet. As such I do not view it as a clique, as something non-ordinary, or as an ideology.

One more thing I thought was interesting to mention, tied to "evolving along with the planet". Some people advise distancing - "leaving nature alone". Ultimately I feel that it is union, the realization that we are ONE with the planet, that will lead to restoration of both the planet AND of ourselves.

 

[David Tallan]

It’s not just humans who have this issue to contend with.

The slightly more adventurous wolf who, several millennia ago, saw the fire and thought: “if I’m brave enough to go there those humans might give me some food” had no idea that s/he was consigning some of their ancestors to being dressed in Christmas outfits and carried around in handbags.

Domestication has its downsides and upsides. The slightly more adventurous cats who thought "there's lots of good food in those grain storage places eating the food that the humans want, if I'm brave enough to go catch them" had no idea what they were signing up their descendants for. On the other hand there are a few tens of thousands of the wild cats that modern domesticated cats are descended from and hundreds of millions of domestic cats all around the world. Evolutionarily speaking, it is clear which was the winning path.

 

[henrythedog]

Domestication has its downsides and upsides. The slightly more adventurous cats who thought "there's lots of good food in those grain storage places eating the food that the humans want, if I'm brave enough to go catch them" had no idea what they were signing up their descendants for. On the other hand there are a few tens of thousands of the wild cats that modern domesticated cats are descended from and hundreds of millions of domestic cats all around the world. Evolutionarily speaking, it is clear which was the winning path.

If ‘winning’ is ensuring the continuation of your family line by turning tricks for reward by serving or otherwise pleasing humans, then I agree.

I may be delusional, but I’d hope for more than that.

I do take solace in believing that most animals are sufficiently ‘in the present moment’ that they will never actually know that they are the last of their line.

 

[David Tallan]

If ‘winning’ is ensuring the continuation of your family line by turning tricks for reward by serving or otherwise pleasing humans, then I agree.

I may be delusional, but I’d hope for more than that.

I do take solace in believing that most animals are sufficiently ‘in the present moment’ that they will never actually know that they are the last of their line.

That's why I said "evolutionarily speaking". Although, I don't know how many tricks cats do. I can certainly see your point about the tradeoffs of a terrible individual life vs a relatively secure future for the species with regards to our domesticated food animals. But we don't demand all that much from cats in comparison to what they get from us, IMHO. Most cats I know get to do pretty much whatever they want.

 

[henrythedog]

That's why I said "evolutionarily speaking". Although, I don't know how many tricks cats do. I can certainly see your point about the tradeoffs of a terrible individual life vs a relatively secure future for the species with regards to our domesticated food animals. But we don't demand all that much from cats in comparison to what they get from us, IMHO. Most cats I know get to do pretty much whatever they want.

My many cats - before the arrival of Henry the Dog - expected reward well in excess of their pest control duties - and got it.
Perhaps we (or more specifically, I) are a little off-topic and might leave it there? Have a good day. D.