I have 25 walking days. Do I have time to start in Lisbon if I am going to Finisterre and Muxia?

[Marla in CA]

I am arriving at Madrid airport on May 1, 2020 and will start the Portuguese Camino on May 2. from where I have not decided yet. I am leaving Santiago on May 27. So that is my timeframe. I am interested in walking approximately 25 km a day. I will walk more on a few days, if necessary, but 25km is comfortable for me.
1) I want to hear people's thoughts on starting in Lisbon versus Porto.
2) Which route - Coastal or other?
3) I absolutely want to go to Finisterre and Muxia.
Given my time frame, do I have time to start in Lisbon if I am planning on going to F&M? If not, that settles my dilemma of Lisbon versus Porto!
Thank you in advance to anybody who weighs in. Incidentally, I just did SJPDP to Santigo and returned on Oct. 20. Can't wait to go back!

 

[trecile]

How about splitting the difference and starting in Coimbra? Unless you are willing to put in some very long days, I don't think that you have time to walk from Lisbon, and include Finisterre and Muxía, and you have lots more time than is necessary to walk from Porto.

Check out the stages that are suggested on Gronze.com

Camino Portugués Central | Gronze.com

www.gronze.com

 

[peregrina2000]

If you are comfortable with 30 km days, I think you would have time. If not, probably not. Look at Gronze’s stages. https://www.gronze.com/camino-portugues

They are pretty standard. One other thing to consider is that there are lots of good starting places in between Lisbon and Porto. Starting in Tomar would give you 20 “standard” stage days, leaving 4-5 for Finisterre and Muxia. If you don’t want to cut it that close, Coimbra is a good choice too. The cities on the central Portuguese route are well served by trains.

 

[Marla in CA]

How about splitting the difference and starting in Coimbra? Unless you are willing to put in some very long days, I don't think that you have time to walk from Lisbon, and include Finisterre and Muxía, and you have lots more time than is necessary to walk from Porto.

Check out the stages that are suggested on Gronze.com

Camino Portugués Central | Gronze.com

www.gronze.com

Thank you so much

How about splitting the difference and starting in Coimbra? Unless you are willing to put in some very long days, I don't think that you have time to walk from Lisbon, and include Finisterre and Muxía, and you have lots more time than is necessary to walk from Porto.

Check out the stages that are suggested on Gronze.com

Camino Portugués Central | Gronze.com

www.gronze.com

Thank you so much @trecile for all of this valuable info! This is exactly the kind of info I need! I love the idea of splitting the difference and appreciate your input re not enough time from Lisbon and too much time if I start in Porto. I will look up Gronze. Now I can narrow my research and figure out how to get from Madrid to Coimbra.

 

[Marla in CA]

If you are comfortable with 30 km days, I think you would have time. If not, probably not. Look at Gronze’s stages. https://www.gronze.com/camino-portugues

They are pretty standard. One other thing to consider is that there are lots of good starting places in between Lisbon and Porto. Starting in Tomar would give you 20 “standard” stage days, leaving 4-5 for Finisterre and Muxia. If you don’t want to cut it that close, Coimbra is a good choice too. The cities on the central Portuguese route are well served by trains.

Thank you @peregrina2000, I will look up Gronze. I want to stay at around 25 km/day, and only on 2 or 3 days I will walk 30+ if I have to for one reason or another. That is what I did on the Frances when I wanted to end up in a certain place or certain albergue.

 

[surya8]

will start the Portuguese Camino on May 2. from where I have not decided yet. I am leaving Santiago on May 27. So that is my timeframe.
1) I want to hear people's thoughts on starting in Lisbon versus Porto.
2) Which route?
3) I absolutely want to go to Finisterre and Muxia.
Given my time frame, do I have time to start in Lisbon if I am planning on going to F&M? If not, that settles my dilemma of Lisbon versus Porto!

Well, it depends if you are a fast walker and if you are comfortable marching 30-35+km every day and still enjoy it. From the point of view of a hiker it might be possible but it's a tough one: according to Brierley's guidebook 13 days between Lisbon and Porto, then 9-10 to Santiago depending on the route you walk. Then 3 days from Santiago to Fisterra. These are bare minimum and may not allow for rest day in Porto, sightseeing in towns or fixing possible medical issues on the way so I guess it could be done if you like walking for the sake of walking/as a challenge. If Camino is more then a hiking trip then consider starting a bit further north then Lisbon - in Santarem, Tomar or Coimbra - then you'll have time to finish it in time in Finisterra. I walked from Santarem and quite enjoyed the walk, especially the stretch till Coimbra. It has a totally different feel to it then Porto to Santiago stretch and I guess will be very different from the Frances. The list of accommodation on the way: https://www.vialusitana.org/caminho/albergues Don't miss the donativo albergue Casa Catolico in Branca, between Albergaria-a-Velha and Sao Joao da Madeira - it's a rare jem there for you! Bom Caminho to you!

 

[Marla in CA]

Well, it depends if you are a fast walker and if you are comfortable marching 30-35+km every day and still enjoy it. From the point of view of a hiker it might be possible but it's a tough one: according to Brierley's guidebook 13 days between Lisbon and Porto, then 9-10 to Santiago depending on the route you walk. Then 3 days from Santiago to Fisterra. These are bare minimum and may not allow for rest day in Porto, sightseeing in towns or fixing possible medical issues on the way so I guess it could be done if you like walking for the sake of walking/as a challenge. If Camino is more then a hiking trip then consider starting a bit further north then Lisbon - in Santarem, Tomar or Coimbra - then you'll have time to finish it in time in Finisterra. I walked from Santarem and quite enjoyed the walk, especially the stretch till Coimbra. It has a totally different feel to it then Porto to Santiago stretch and I guess will be very different from the Frances. The list of accommodation on the way: https://www.vialusitana.org/caminho/albergues Don't miss the donativo albergue Casa Catolico in Branca, between Albergaria-a-Velha and Sao Joao da Madeira - it's a rare jem there for you! Bom Caminho to you!

Thank you for this info. Since I know nothing yet about the Portuguese route, the names of these towns really helps me. I will look up Santarem, TOmar and Coimbra and also look into how I get from Madrid to any of these towns.

 

[Marla in CA]

If you are comfortable with 30 km days, I think you would have time. If not, probably not. Look at Gronze’s stages. https://www.gronze.com/camino-portugues

They are pretty standard. One other thing to consider is that there are lots of good starting places in between Lisbon and Porto. Starting in Tomar would give you 20 “standard” stage days, leaving 4-5 for Finisterre and Muxia. If you don’t want to cut it that close, Coimbra is a good choice too. The cities on the central Portuguese route are well served by trains.

Thank you, very helpful to know there are a lot of good starting points in between Lisbon and Porto.

 

[SYates]

Thank you @peregrina2000, I will look up Gronze. I want to stay at around 25 km/day, and only on 2 or 3 days, if I have to for one reason or another. That is what I did on the Frances when I wanted to end up in a certain place or certain albergue.

In that case, better start in Porto!
BC SY

 

[Tincatinker]

Thank you for this info. Since I know nothing yet about the Portuguese route, the names of these towns really helps me. I will look up Santarem, TOmar and Coimbra and also look into how I get from Madrid to any of these towns.

You are having a giraffe aren’t you? Giraffe/ laugh - making a joke. You know nothing about the Portugues routes but you’re proposing to walk one without checking how far it is or how long it will take. I like your style...

 

[Anamya]

I want to stay at around 25 km/day, and only on 2 or 3 days, if I have to for one reason or another.

In that case, better start in Porto!

Porto is a delightful place that deserves more than a day of exploration. if you start there, you can take it very tranquilly to Santiago, have rest there as well, go to finisterre and muxia... and then if you still have time left, decide what to do.

EDIT: just to say that I stayed in Porto for 3 days myself... ate my way around and loved every minute. Visited churches, bookshops, did a walking tour (because not enough walking, right?), a wine tasting. It was SUCH a great time, and then I felt completely ready for the camino ahead.

 

[Deleted member 43780]

I would do as told above, start in Porto. But spend extra day or two to see wonderful Porto.

towns/cities along the route are actually served very well by bus. excellent bus service. Especially in Spain

 

[RJM]

Get yourself a guidebook for the Camino Portuguese research it a bit with that and it will help you decide your route and starting point.
I found the Brierley guidebook to be good and had everything I needed in it. You can purchase one here on this forum.
Ultreia.

 

[wjohnk]

The Brierley Camino Portuguese Guidebook is good for planning - and useful while walking. It covers routes North from Lisbon.

 

[GraemeHall]

This year I walked the Portugués from Lisbon to Santiago ...24 days, average about 27km per day. No rest days (have visited Porto and Lisbon before, and spent 3 days in each of them on the way back by train).
Last year I walked Santiago to Muxía to Finisterre at the end of my Francés...5 days altogether. So that would make 29 days altogether for your itinerary at my pace.
If I take out my first 4 days on the Portugués, it would mean starting at Santarém. But remember that was with no rest days or days up the sleeve for injury etc. (I had days up my sleeve but blessed to have not needed them.)
Bom Caminho.

 

[Elle Bieling]

Hello Maria. I have written lots and lots on my blog with photos, so you can see the towns mentioned and get an idea where it is best for you to start. I also have lots of information to help you decide which route to take once you get to Porto, the Coastal/Senda Litoral or the Central. The link, the Many Ways on the Camino Portugues will take you there. Happy planning!

 

[hughb]

I am arriving at Madrid airport on May 1, 2020 and will start the Portuguese Camino on May 2. from where I have not decided yet. I am leaving Santiago on May 27. So that is my timeframe. I am interested in walking approximately 25 km a day. I will walk more on a few days, if necessary, but 25km is comfortable for me.
1) I want to hear people's thoughts on starting in Lisbon versus Porto.
2) Which route - Coastal or other?
3) I absolutely want to go to Finisterre and Muxia.
Given my time frame, do I have time to start in Lisbon if I am planning on going to F&M? If not, that settles my dilemma of Lisbon versus Porto!
Thank you in advance to anybody who weighs in. Incidentally, I just did SJPDP to Santigo and returned on Oct. 20. Can't wait to go back!

Why not start near Fatima? It is the most amazing place to walk into as a pilgrim. I often think it is as good as walking into Santiago. If you were to start in Santarem or Nazare, you have 2 days walk to Fatima, or from Tomar you have a one day walk. The donativo albergue attached to the Basilica in Fatima is great. On arrival at the albergue you are given a bag with starched heavy cotton sheets and pillowcase and pure white fluffy bath towel. Not ever come across that at any other donativo albergue.

From Fatima you then continue to Tomar or Ansiao to join the main route to Santiago. The route from Fatima to Ansiao you save a full days walking over the Tomar route due to the dog leg. All 3 legs from Santarem, Tomar and Ansiao are all well marked all the way and have loads of facilities and albergues.

I have regularly walked all of these beautiful routes. The routes to Fatima are nearly all off tarmac and follow tracks through rolling hills and beautiful countryside. It is some of the nicest walking on the entire route to Santiago. On any of these routes to include Fatima, your timescale would fit perfectly.

I live in the area and if you need any local information from a perpetual pilgrim, please ask.

Bom caminho to you, wherever you decide to start your special adventure in this peaceful and beautiful country.

 

[Mark McCarthy]

The first three days out of Lisbon are industrial and grim. I suggest starting on Tomar.

 

[Marla in CA]

This year I walked the Portugués from Lisbon to Santiago ...24 days, average about 27km per day. No rest days (have visited Porto and Lisbon before, and spent 3 days in each of them on the way back by train).
Last year I walked Santiago to Muxía to Finisterre at the end of my Francés...5 days altogether. So that would make 29 days altogether for your itinerary at my pace.
If I take out my first 4 days on the Portugués, it would mean starting at Santarém. But remember that was with no rest days or days up the sleeve for injury etc. (I had days up my sleeve but blessed to have not needed them.)
Bom Caminho.

Thank you @GraemeHall , this helps significantly.

 

[Marla in CA]

The first three days out of Lisbon are industrial and grim. I suggest starting on Tomar.

Thank you Mark! I need to hear info like this. It really helps in the decision making.

 

[Marla in CA]

The Brierley Camino Portuguese Guidebook is good for planning - and useful while walking. It covers routes North from Lisbon.

Ordered! I love Brierley guides.

 

[Marla in CA]

Why not start near Fatima? It is the most amazing place to walk into as a pilgrim. I often think it is as good as walking into Santiago. If you were to start in Santarem or Nazare, you have 2 days walk to Fatima, or from Tomar you have a one day walk. The donativo albergue attached to the Basilica in Fatima is great. On arrival at the albergue you are given a bag with starched heavy cotton sheets and pillowcase and pure white fluffy bath towel. Not ever come across that at any other donativo albergue.

From Fatima you then continue to Tomar or Ansiao to join the main route to Santiago. The route from Fatima to Ansiao you save a full days walking over the Tomar route due to the dog leg. All 3 legs from Santarem, Tomar and Ansiao are all well marked all the way and have loads of facilities and albergues.

I have regularly walked all of these beautiful routes. The routes to Fatima are nearly all off tarmac and follow tracks through rolling hills and beautiful countryside. It is some of the nicest walking on the entire route to Santiago. On any of these routes to include Fatima, your timescale would fit perfectly.

I live in the area and if you need any local information from a perpetual pilgrim, please ask.

Bom caminho to you, wherever you decide to start your special adventure in this peaceful and beautiful country.

@hughb , thank you, thank you, thank you! Reading and re-reading your post with all of your helpful info!

 

[Marla in CA]

Get yourself a guidebook for the Camino Portuguese research it a bit with that and it will help you decide your route and starting point.
I found the Brierley guidebook to be good and had everything I needed in it. You can purchase one here on this forum.
Ultreia.

@RJM, yes, agree, Brierley guides are the best!

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

The first three days out of Lisbon are industrial and grim. I suggest starting on Tomar.

Tomar is certainly the most charming of the early towns to start in, but if you're coming from Madrid, I'd choose Santarem instead. It's on the direct rail-line Madrid > Lisbon, and probably on bus routes as well. If you headed for Tomar, you'd likely have to go via Santarem, or at least Entroncamento, anyway. Tomar is on a rail spur line, and not on many direct bus routes. Santarem is the "provincial capital" for that part of Portugal, and most routes go through there. (If you go to Entroncamento, you're a very few km. away from Golega, which might also be a nice place to start).

Bom Caminho!

 

[Marla in CA]

Tomar is certainly the most charming of the early towns to start in, but if you're coming from Madrid, I'd choose Santarem instead. It's on the direct rail-line Madrid > Lisbon, and probably on bus routes as well. If you headed for Tomar, you'd likely have to go via Santarem, or at least Entroncamento, anyway. Tomar is on a rail spur line, and not on many direct bus routes. Santarem is the "provincial capital" for that part of Portugal, and most routes go through there. (If you go to Entroncamento, you're a very few km. away from Golega, which might also be a nice place to start).

Bom Caminho!

@Friend from Barquinha, thank you, thank you, thank you! Based on all the responses, I think I will take a flight from Madrid to Lisbon, stay overnight and spend the next day sightseeing in Lisbon. Then I will go by bus or train to any one of these cities that you helpful people have suggested.

 

[peregrina2000]

Tomar is certainly the most charming of the early towns to start in, but if you're coming from Madrid, I'd choose Santarem instead. It's on the direct rail-line Madrid > Lisbon, and probably on bus routes as well. If you headed for Tomar, you'd likely have to go via Santarem, or at least Entroncamento, anyway. Tomar is on a rail spur line, and not on many direct bus routes. Santarem is the "provincial capital" for that part of Portugal, and most routes go through there. (If you go to Entroncamento, you're a very few km. away from Golega, which might also be a nice place to start).

Bom Caminho!

I think, but you should correct me if I am wrong, that from Lisbon you can get a train directly to Tomar. But if there is time, starting to walk a bit earlier in Santarém is a great idea. How often do you get to walk past the (very humble) birthplace of a Nobel Prize winner (Saramago in Azinhaga)?! And Golega is another very nice little place, IMO, and I believe that there are now a few pilgrim accommodations there. Not to mention that Mario’s place in Santarém is not to be missed (SantaremHostel).

 

[Marla in CA]

I think, but you should correct me if I am wrong, that from Lisbon you can get a train directly to Tomar. But if there is time, starting to walk a bit earlier in Santarém is a great idea. How often do you get to walk past the (very humble) birthplace of a Nobel Prize winner (Saramago in Azinhaga)?! And Golega is another very nice little place, IMO, and I believe that there are now a few pilgrim accommodations there. Not to mention that Mario’s place in Santarém is not to be missed (SantaremHostel).

@peregrina2000, I am so happy I posted in this forum. These kinds of personal opinions and experiences cannot be found in a guide! Thank you all for these great tips.

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

I think, but you should correct me if I am wrong, that from Lisbon you can get a train directly to Tomar.

Definitely true. I was considering if you wanted to train from Madrid to Tomar; then you'd have to transfer in Entroncamento.

 

[hughb]

@hughb , thank you, thank you, thank you! Reading and re-reading your post with all of your helpful info!

if you need any local information, please ask, I moved to the area 3 years ago, hence the reason I often bimble around on various bits of the caminho for a few days at a time. Plus I try to walk at least 1 complete route each year. Until I moved here I had no idea how many choices of route there were, all are well marked but not covered by the English language guide books, although I believe that soon the CSJ guide will cover some.

 

[Marla in CA]

if you need any local information, please ask, I moved to the area 3 years ago, hence the reason I often bimble around on various bits of the caminho for a few days at a time. Plus I try to walk at least 1 complete route each year. Until I moved here I had no idea how many choices of route there were, all are well marked but not covered by the English language guide books, although I believe that soon the CSJ guide will cover some.
[/QU
@hughb

if you need any local information, please ask, I moved to the area 3 years ago, hence the reason I often bimble around on various bits of the caminho for a few days at a time. Plus I try to walk at least 1 complete route each year. Until I moved here I had no idea how many choices of route there were, all are well marked but not covered by the English language guide books, although I believe that soon the CSJ guide will cover some.

@hughb , thank you. I am sure I will have more questions for you!

 

[Mycroft]

I am arriving at Madrid airport on May 1, 2020 and will start the Portuguese Camino on May 2. from where I have not decided yet. I am leaving Santiago on May 27. So that is my timeframe. I am interested in walking approximately 25 km a day. I will walk more on a few days, if necessary, but 25km is comfortable for me.
1) I want to hear people's thoughts on starting in Lisbon versus Porto.
2) Which route - Coastal or other?
3) I absolutely want to go to Finisterre and Muxia.
Given my time frame, do I have time to start in Lisbon if I am planning on going to F&M? If not, that settles my dilemma of Lisbon versus Porto!
Thank you in advance to anybody who weighs in. Incidentally, I just did SJPDP to Santigo and returned on Oct. 20. Can't wait to go back!

From wherever you depart, as you sure you want to start walking immediately, without thought to jetlag or acclimation?

 

[peregrina2000]

From wherever you depart, as you sure you want to start walking immediately, without thought to jetlag or acclimation?

That’s what I always used to think, till my schedule left me no option than to arrive from the US and start walking the next day. I was surprised to find that walking outdoors was the best cure for jet lag and I was fine. Some, like @jpflavin, arrive from the US and start walking that same day. I’ve never tried that, nor do I fly on a flight longer than 9 or 10 hours overnight so my downunder friends might have very different experiences. Everyone is different so you won’t know till you try.

 

[Marla in CA]

From wherever you depart, as you sure you want to start walking immediately, without thought to jetlag or acclimation?

Yes, I have given it thought. I just did the Camino Frances in October so I have a bit of experience. I am leaving U.S. April 30th, arrive in Madrid on May 1, and then need to get to where I will start. I will likely fly to Lisbon after landing in Madrid, explore Lisbon on May 2, then based on the tips in this forum, take a train or bus to somewhere between Lisbon and Porto. So I guess I might start a 25 km day or so on May 3. I can't wait for my Brierley guide to arrive!

 

[Adhemar78]

I am arriving at Madrid airport on May 1, 2020 and will start the Portuguese Camino on May 2. from where I have not decided yet. I am leaving Santiago on May 27. So that is my timeframe. I am interested in walking approximately 25 km a day. I will walk more on a few days, if necessary, but 25km is comfortable for me.
1) I want to hear people's thoughts on starting in Lisbon versus Porto.
2) Which route - Coastal or other?
3) I absolutely want to go to Finisterre and Muxia.
Given my time frame, do I have time to start in Lisbon if I am planning on going to F&M? If not, that settles my dilemma of Lisbon versus Porto!
Thank you in advance to anybody who weighs in. Incidentally, I just did SJPDP to Santigo and returned on Oct. 20. Can't wait to go back!

You could start in Porto rather than Lisbon. I’ll be doing that in May - I’ve booked to do the Portuguese Coastal Camino through a travel company here in Australia (I’ll be doing it self-guided) so I’ll be walking from Porto to Santiago over 13 days and then from Santiago to Finisterre over four. I’m going to have a couple of days in Porto and a couple in Santiago on top of that, so that will be 21 or 22 days in total.

 

[caminoagogo]

Hey @Marla in CA, I'm doing the CP from Porto and then out to the coast over 18 days in May/June next year. I've got a couple of posts on my blog which may help you a little with your planning. Check out https://bit.ly/35YktMg and https://bit.ly/2QdjEZq for my itinerary and info on the routes. I hope the info helps

 

[Marla in CA]

Hey @Marla in CA, I'm doing the CP from Porto and then out to the coast over 18 days in May/June next year. I've got a couple of posts on my blog which may help you a little with your planning. Check out https://bit.ly/35YktMg and https://bit.ly/2QdjEZq for my itinerary and info on the routes. I hope the info helps

@caminoagogo, thank you so much! Will check it out. P.S. Love your username!

 

[Clay7011]

I am arriving at Madrid airport on May 1, 2020 and will start the Portuguese Camino on May 2. from where I have not decided yet. I am leaving Santiago on May 27. So that is my timeframe. I am interested in walking approximately 25 km a day. I will walk more on a few days, if necessary, but 25km is comfortable for me.
1) I want to hear people's thoughts on starting in Lisbon versus Porto.
2) Which route - Coastal or other?
3) I absolutely want to go to Finisterre and Muxia.
Given my time frame, do I have time to start in Lisbon if I am planning on going to F&M? If not, that settles my dilemma of Lisbon versus Porto!
Thank you in advance to anybody who weighs in. Incidentally, I just did SJPDP to Santigo and returned on Oct. 20. Can't wait to go back!

 

[Clay7011]

I walked from Lisbon to Santiago central route with detour to Fatima last year in 19 days. Would recommend skipping first 2 sections and starting in Azambuja.
I will took 4 days to Muxía and Fisterre.
I am a fairly fit 73 year old just for reference

 

[Marla in CA]

I walked from Lisbon to Santiago central route with detour to Fatima last year in 19 days. Would recommend skipping first 2 sections and starting in Azambuja.
I will took 4 days to Muxía and Fisterre.
I am a fairly fit 73 year old just for reference

@Clay7011 , thank you so much for this info, and especially recommendation regarding starting point.

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

"I walked from Lisbon to Santiago central route with detour to Fatima last year in 19 days. Would recommend skipping first 2 sections and starting in Azambuja."

I haven't walked the route myself myself, but have "trained" it many times between Lisbon and Entroncamento and for the first part, I would agree. Unless you want to say "I've done the whole way," I'd train as far as Azambuja, or maybe Vila Franca de Xira (just before there.) The way out of Lisbon has interesting bits, but much of it is rundown old industrial sites and, I suspect, not all that pleasant walking.

Bom caminho!

 

[Marla in CA]

I need to look at a map while I await my Brierley guide to arrive in the mail. The only 2 cities I have heard of are lisbon and Porto! So I appreciate all these recommendations re starting points - now need to see where they are!

 

[CaptainBonnie]

I am arriving at Madrid airport on May 1, 2020 and will start the Portuguese Camino on May 2. from where I have not decided yet. I am leaving Santiago on May 27. So that is my timeframe. I am interested in walking approximately 25 km a day. I will walk more on a few days, if necessary, but 25km is comfortable for me.
1) I want to hear people's thoughts on starting in Lisbon versus Porto.
2) Which route - Coastal or other?
3) I absolutely want to go to Finisterre and Muxia.
Given my time frame, do I have time to start in Lisbon if I am planning on going to F&M? If not, that settles my dilemma of Lisbon versus Porto!
Thank you in advance to anybody who weighs in. Incidentally, I just did SJPDP to Santigo and returned on Oct. 20. Can't wait to go back!

Hi !
You would need to average 30+ km
At non - stop ( no relaxing days ) to cover
640+80+40 just to cover 760 km to Muxia in 25 days ... will power determination and keeping the faith along with your Mochila... anything is possible

 

[David Tallan]

I think it is quite ambitious. I won't say impossible but it does leave you no margin if things don't go as expected (and they rarely do). It is not what I would do, but I always like to give myself a healthy margin.