Here we go again -- Rescue near Villafranca del Bierzo

[peregrina2000]

Cause for head-scratching -- what were these adults thinking? 19 pilgrims rescued, 13 of them high school kids from Andorra with two teachers, along with four others.

http://www.diariodigitaldeleon.com/...inos-incomunicados-por-temporal-de-nieve.html

 

[KinkyOne]

Of course such things could happen even (or especially) during summer storms in matter of hours or minutes (in mountain areas), but to expose such large number of minors to forecasted snowfall and low temperatures, that's shear stupidity and irrsponsibility as far as I'm concerned...

Nice to hear there were no casualties though!

 

[Al the optimist]

I lost the ability to be amazed some 40 years ago when watching teachers taking some youngsters (under 12s at a guess) up a large scree slope on Mount Snowdon in Wales rather than use the zigzag path to the side. It was late May, very hot and sunny and they didn't have protective gear and some were wearing sandals. Two hours later the cloud descended leaving 10 metre visibility as you walked through it and anyone without wet gear would have been soaked and risking hypothermia.

 

[SYates]

Like Einstein, allegedly, said:

"There are only two things that are infinite, human stupidity and the universe - and I am not so sure about the universe!"

SY

 

[Mark Lee]

Do not understand why anybody would walk the Camino this time of year. Too much risk of hypothermia and injury due to falls and such. Doing your own thing is cool and all, but when somebody else has to risk their butt to save you when you screw up? That ain't cool.

 

[stratophile]

I agree completely about the stupidity, especially where minors are involved.

However, in their defense, I think it is very easy for people to underestimate the dangers of high altitudes - especially in such 'non-threatening' locations as along the Camino. The Camino is a well-established, well-marked route walked by hundreds of thousands of people each year including the elderly and small children. Even those with disabilities. It isn't a 'wilderness' trail. For the most part, it even runs right alongside roads! How dangerous could it be?

To make matters worse, it *is* quite safe frankly -- assuming one walks with common sense and due respect for the powers and unpredictability of nature. The Camino has to be one of the safest and easiest long-distance trails in the world. Nobody needs to be afraid of it. But those of us (myself included) who 'talk up' the Camino and encourage people to walk it can inadvertently make some people think that they can safely 'shut down' their normal common sense when they walk it. I wouldn't be surprised if the two 'guardians' referred to in the article aren't normal, competent, caring people who just made one or two very, very stupid and consequentially dangerous decisions that put their own lives and, especially, those of the minors they were responsible for at serious risk.

Stupid, yes, and I am very happy this has turned out as nothing more than a very harsh learning experience for them -- but at the moment I can't help but also think of how truly horrified, guilty, scared, and relieved those 'guardians' must be feeling right now. Likely a life-changing event for both them and the minors they had in their care.

 

[SYates]

Do not understand why anybody would walk the Camino this time of year. Too much risk of hypothermia and injury due to falls and such. Doing your own thing is cool and all, but when somebody else has to risk their butt to save you when you screw up? That ain't cool.

I can, having done this and worse!, what I can't understand is how anybody from Andorra can underestimate mountains. Being born a 'flatlander' I approach mountains and their weather with utmost respect and due equipment. Also, I never would take on the responsibility of taking somebody else, much less minors, on such a trip without being overly prepared and having several 'back-up solutions' in place. SY

PS Edited for misleading typo ...

 

[naplesdon]

I don't walk in the winter, especially in the snow. I also don't walk in summer during thunderstorms. But before we judge those in charge of this misadventure, let's learn if it was not a freak snowstorm that hit without warning.

 

[SYates]

@biarritzdon Freak snowstorms occur in May/June and/or September/October - in February there are no freak snow storms in the mountains of the northern hemisphere - just normal weather patterns. SY

 

[naplesdon]

@biarritzdon Freak snowstorms occur in May/June and/or September/October - in February there are no freak snow storms in the mountains of the northern hemisphere - just normal weather patterns. SY

SYates, I agree with you but I think this snowstorm came as something of surprise to everyone in to region.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

For the most part, it even runs right alongside roads!

Not from Las Herrerias thru La Faba to O Cebreiro. The path would not be visible in snow.

 

[SYates]

SYates, I agree with you but I think this snowstorm came as something of surprise to everyone in to region.

Sorry for being obnoxious, but in winter you do have to consider (snow) (storms)! SY

 

[cher99840]

What I am taking from this article is the importance of reviewing the credentials and/or experience of those we elect to guide our young people (and ourselves too, for that matter). Just this morning my grand daughter told me how she plans to do a 5 day mountain hike in the NE (USA) with a school sponsored group. Yes, guardians/guides can run into freakish situations, but as @SYates so aptly pointed out, there should be several "backup solutions" in place. They may not cover everything, and we don't know if these people perhaps had them and the "solutions" freakishly failed, but I shall alert my people to gather information about the group leaders before blindly signing just because the hike has a trusted sponsor. (There's nothing quite like a granny who butts in, but they will miss me when I'm gone.)

 

[naplesdon]

I am beginning to love this thread. It reeks of the debate between the nanny state and libertarianism values. Ignore the warnings and walk off into... Who is wrong, who is right? I do relief work so you can only guess where I stand.
I was a Boy Scout from the age of 10 and my parents allowed me to camp once a month for a weekend in some of the most hostile winter weather known to man (and boy) and guess what? I'm still alive.

 

[ebrandt]

I can, having done this and worse!, what I can't understand is how anybody from Andorra can estimate mountains. Being born a 'flatlander' I approach mountains and their weather with utmost respect and due equipment. Also, I never would take on the responsibility of taking somebody else, much less minors, on such a trip without being overly prepared and having several 'back-up solutions' in place. SY

I'm with you SYates. Living in Idaho in the US has given me a very healthy respect for changing weather conditions in mountains! I guess there are lots of people who don't learn from experience or maybe they think they have developed super human survival skills and nothing any other location dishes up can be as bad as what they experience at home.... I sure am glad they were all OK.

 

[SYates]

And I am addicted to survival (urban and wilderness) from a teenage age, so yes, I do 'enjoy' this thread also - as funny as 'enjoy' sounds in this context. Note, I have done a fair bit of survival during my nearly 50 years of life - but risking the lives of others - nether! SY

 

[KinkyOne]

...I can't understand is how anybody from Andorra can estimate mountains. ...

I guess what you wanted to say is "underestimate" and if that's so I can only agree completely (being born in Alps region myself and former alpinist)!

 

[SYates]

... I sure am glad they were all OK.

So am I, so am I, I don't want even to start to imagine a different scenario! SY

 

[SYates]

I guess what you wanted to say is "underestimate" ...

Big oops, yes, you are right, dangers of not being a native English speaker/writer! Corrected now! SY

 

[naplesdon]

I'm with you SYates. Living in Idaho in the US has given me a very healthy respect for changing weather conditions in mountains! I guess there are lots of people who don't learn from experience or maybe they think they have developed super human survival skills and nothing any other location dishes up can be as bad as what they experience at home.... I sure am glad they were all OK.

My niece and her husband live in McCall, he's with the National Forest Service and they are both firefighters.

 

[SYates]

They do have my utmost respect! Fire is far more unpredictable than weather! SY

 

[KinkyOne]

SYates, I agree with you but I think this snowstorm came as something of surprise to everyone in to region.

Not at all Biarritzdon. For example, here in Slovenia it was code red alert from yesterday morning and state borders closed for trucks because of heavy snow storms and wind (up to 190kms/h) but the center of the cyclon moved about (only) 50kms south and all the major shit is now happening in Croatia. When the predictions are like this you simply do not go to the mountain areas, be it in Spain, Slovenia or Rockies. I wouldn't go walking through the meseta myself either...

 

[naplesdon]

Not at all Biarritzdon. For example, here in Slovenia it was code red alert from yesterday morning and state borders closed for trucks because of heavy snow storms and wind (up to 190kms/h) but the center of the cyclon moved about (only) 50kms south and all the major shit is now happening in Croatia. When the predictions are like this you simply do not go to the mountain areas. I wouldn't go walking through the meseta myself either...

I posted a message several days ago about the latest North American storms being a precursor of the winter weather in Europe. Example was Hercules last year. It's freezing in Biarritz this weekend and I'm not happy about getting back to my home in 2 weeks after a warm and sunny winter in Florida.

 

[cher99840]

I am beginning to love this thread. It reeks of the debate between the nanny state and libertarianism values. Ignore the warnings and walk off into... Who is wrong, who is right? I do relief work so you can only guess where I stand.
I was a Boy Scout from the age of 10 and my parents allowed me to camp once a month for a weekend in some of the most hostile winter weather known to man (and boy) and guess what? I'm still alive.

I don't see anything remotely political about the debate. I greatly admire the way that you were raised that ensured that you learned about self preservation at a very early age. Many, if not most, young people in the U.S. (excluding certain regions where nature is dominant) do not get the experience that you did. I grew up on a farm, so was naturally aware of the animals around me on the Camino and closing gates behind me was second nature. On the other hand, I didn't learn about the dangers of the elements until I moved to Alaska in my late 30s. We are creatures of not only how we were raised but also where we were raised. My grandchildren grew up in large cities, and my grand-daughter's first mountain hike was hiking the Chilkoot Trail with me last year.

 

[Kanga]

It's all in the planning. I think of my nephew who is a Queen's Scout. He's done the most hair raising things in his life - but always with meticulous preparation and coldly calculating the odds and having a plan b, c, and d.

 

[naplesdon]

It's all in the planning. I think of my nephew who is a Queen's Scout. He's done the most hair raising things in his life - but always with meticulous preparation and coldly calculating the odds and having a plan b, c, and d.

Sometimes I only wish I had a plan a,b,c or d...or you can just go with the flow and hope some helicopter will arrive.

 

[SYates]

... and hope some helicopter will arrive.

Which reminds me of:
There was flooding in the village and the home of a man was threatened by it. As the waters rose he went to the first floor praying "Oh Lord save me!" and a boat came by offering a lift, but he declined, saying "The Lord will save me!"
The waters rose further, so he climbed to the second floor of his house, still praying "Oh Lord, please save me!" and an even bigger rescue boat arrived, but he declined and said "The Lord will save me!"
And the waters rose even further and he climbed onto the roof and an helicopter passsed by offering to save him, but again he declined "The Lord I have prayed to will save me!"
The water rose even higher and he drowned. The man arrived at the pearly gates very upset and said to God "I prayed to you to save me from the rising waters and I drowned!" God answered "I send two boats and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"
SY

 

[stratophile]

Not from Las Herrerias thru La Faba to O Cebreiro. The path would not be visible in snow.

That's why I was referring to the Camino as a whole and qualified it with "For the most part"... Plus, the *perception* of the overall Camino (which is what I was trying to emphasize) is that it is an easy, no-worries walk that is difficult only in the total distance. And mostly that is, in fact, true. That perception is what makes it easy for otherwise-intelligent people to make the occasional dumb decision...

I run into people all the time who underestimate how quickly conditions can change at high altitudes. This isn't just a hiking issue -- even on mountain roads dangerous conditions can happen at any time. I don't think there is anything wrong with winter hiking of the Camino or even with taking kids along (plus, these were high school-age kids, not 8 year olds). But suitable preparation and due respect for the unexpected are needed. If you are going up into the mountains -and especially if you are responsible for kids- ensure you have the right gear and that you know how to use it. You can safely wait out just about any snowstorm if you are properly prepared. They clearly were not. Regardless of the forecast, conditions can change fast. The adults were responsible for ensuring they were prepared. That was where their stupidity came in even if this was a fluke storm.

I am not one to overly plan my trips. I like spontaneity and adventure. Many of my best experiences have come from mistakes and problems. But despite my often chaotic way of adventuring, I am always *prepared* and aware. I research, learn, and apply the key facts. In their circumstances small mistakes could (and nearly did) have fatal consequences. Those risks were entirely predictable and preventable with preparation and awareness. They had a duty of care. They got off lucky, as did those they were escorting.

As I said earlier, these are probably good, decent, normally-reliable people who made 'minor' mistakes that nearly blew up on them. If I were in their shoes, I'd be devastated right now. In that regard, I feel for them.

This sort of situation reminds me of people who drive through long remote desert stretches like found in the southwestern US without so much as a bottle of water in the car... Many situations don't seem as dangerous as they really are.

 

[ThisIsSpain]

Can I just throw some local knowledge/a different viewpoint into the soup?

This party was from Andorra ..... possibly one of the least hospitable (but beautiful) areas of Europe. There would not have been a kid who had not seen snow from the day he was born. This was not their first rodeo.

Are we all going to dress every bairn in cotton wool? Is the nanny state going to "save" us from everything? Should we all stay in bed every day, never speak to "strangers", cross the road, or try an untasted fruit? Should we ban rugby, soccer, absailing, parachuting ...... or marriage (surely the most dangerous activity known to man)?

Glad the party are all well and I am sure many will be back for more next week......and when they get home the conditions will be worse.

 

[peregrina2000]

Can I just throw some local knowledge/a different viewpoint into the soup?

This party was from Andorra ..... possibly one of the least hospitable (but beautiful) areas of Europe. There would not have been a kid who had not seen snow from the day he was born. This was not their first rodeo.

Are we all going to dress every bairn in cotton wool? Is the nanny state going to "save" us from everything? Should we all stay in bed every day, never speak to "strangers", cross the road, or try an untasted fruit? Should we ban rugby, soccer, absailing, parachuting ...... or marriage (surely the most dangerous activity known to man)?

Glad the party are all well and I am sure many will be back for more next week......and when they get home the conditions will be worse.

Not sure I get your point here. Are you suggesting the "nanny state" (in this case the state police, the Guardia Civil) should not have rescued them?

 

[newfydog]

Do not understand why anybody would walk the Camino this time of year. Too much risk of hypothermia and injury due to falls and such. Doing your own thing is cool and all, but when somebody else has to risk their butt to save you when you screw up? That ain't cool.

One of the best trips I ever did was a week skiing across Yellowstone Park, solo, in the dead of winter.

I fully understood it could go to -40 for several days, and planned accordingly. The ranger in the park interviewed me before I left, and gave me a lecture about how "this is not too smart". Of course, he had never done the trip, but seemed to think he could pass judgment on me.

When I reached the other side, the ranger there, who manned the remote winter station, was a bit different.. "wow what great trip" He also guessed correctly the day I would finish.

I then went down to Teton national park, where a ranger showed me a permit he had issued. He wrote across the permit.."cotton clothes, summer boots, no experience" He had to rescue people like that, but did not have the authority to refuse the permit.

It is never simple. I think there might be no finer time to be out there on the Camino than a magnificent winter storm. It is not for everyone though, and those who have to do the rescues ought to have some input.

 

[tyrrek]

I'm with Kanga et al in promoting flexibility and a 'Plan B'. I don't know about this particular case, but poor planning could force you into making decisions you know are risky. It could be walking in snow, walking with injury, insufficient water etc. If I had 14 days to walk I would aim to walk what is usually covered in 12 days. I would probably arrive early. I would probably be safe. I would definitely be relaxed.

 

[ThisIsSpain]

Not sure I get your point here. Are you suggesting the "nanny state" (in this case the state police, the Guardia Civil) should not have rescued them?

No. I am suggesting that the Nanny State should (a) let them go and (b) not be too judgmental if the wheel comes off. In Norway and Sweden where I have been out in minus 28, the worst danger I was ever in was a beautiful summer day when I got lost in the "100km Wood". I missed a path, thought I knew where I was but at every turn I was getting unwittingly more and more lost.

I also knew that I had only a T shirt and shorts and that the temperature would hit zero at night. Fortunately it was a starry night so I got a rough take where I was from the stars and by absolute fluke I found a path that took me to a stream. From there it was a tortuous 20km hike with no food and water and temperatures about 3/5 degrees. I was very very glad to have found our cabin. From that day, I treated our back yard AKA "100 km Wood" with much more respect 24/7/365

 

[Tia Valeria]

We have been watching/reading the AEmet forecasts for Spain and this snow was well forecast 7 days in advance!!!!!
Glad all ended well, but it does seem that there was a lapse in the preparation

 

[Houlet]

I have had more than fifty years of pleasure and sense of achievement from walking in hills and mountains in winter.

It's all about being properly equipped, forward planning, and realistic assessment of both risk and your own capabilities.

Risks can be minimised, but never eliminated, and I think most of us realise that this sort of thing can happen to the best prepared.

It's one of my concerns about the obsession with backpack weight on this forum, personally I'd rather carry the survival bag, and hard weather gear than be left at 5 000 feet in a blizzard in shorts and T shirt.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

This party was from Andorra

The Koreans were not.

 

[anniethenurse]

Lots of snow on the camino and hard conditions for the winter pilgrims:
https://walkthewayhome.wordpress.com/

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

Reading all this, I am so glad I walk in April & May.
I know some folk can't get the time off when they want it .... and some folk enjoy walking in winter.
I'll stick to the spring....

 

[Scott Sweeney]

Far to many inexperienced hikers/trekers deciding to take on walks like the Camino and far to many inexperienced hikers/trekers being encouraged by far to many inexperienced hikers/trekers.

 

[newfydog]

I have some friends who, while on an overnight backpacking trip in Colorado, rescued some lost women who were on a day hike. They stumbled into their camp at dusk, 15 miles from the road, in wet shorts and cotton shirts just as the rain was turning to snow. They babbled that all they needed was some good directions. They replied that if they did not take off their clothes and get into their sleeping bags with them, they would die.

After years of trying to get women to do just that, they finally found the perfect line!

 

[jpflavin1]

No. I am suggesting that the Nanny State should (a) let them go and (b) not be too judgmental if the wheel comes off. In Norway and Sweden where I have been out in minus 28, the worst danger I was ever in was a beautiful summer day when I got lost in the "100km Wood". I missed a path, thought I knew where I was but at every turn I was getting unwittingly more and more lost.

I also knew that I had only a T shirt and shorts and that the temperature would hit zero at night. Fortunately it was a starry night so I got a rough take where I was from the stars and by absolute fluke I found a path that took me to a stream. From there it was a tortuous 20km hike with no food and water and temperatures about 3/5 degrees. I was very very glad to have found our cabin. From that day, I treated our back yard AKA "100 km Wood" with much more respect 24/7/365

I would agree with your statement if this was an individual making a decision for themselves. These adult teachers put someone else's young adult children in a situation that, based on the need for rescue, was perceived at least to be life threatening. I am curious as to the reaction of these children's' parents other than the joy of their safe return home.

Joe