LIVE from the Camino HELP!! Nowhere to stay tomorrow

[Dani7]

I need help from my community of pilgrims because there is nothing before and directly after Logrono. I’m in Torres del Rio for tonight. Anything before (Viana) and right after is booked. I know I can’t walk 33kms tomorrow to Navarrete. I struggled today with my arthritic feet doing Estella to here.

Any suggestions. Do municipals hold beds for cases like this?. The albergue here at to turn away a very tired pilgrim today.

It is SO very busy it’s kinda scary!!! Everyone is talking about it and have the same challenges.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Former member 59618]

When you say “everything is booked” do you mean only albergues…not pensions and hotels?

 

[ivar]

I wonder if you are walking in a "wave" of pilgrims... maybe take a rest day and see if you can find room for the following day (when the crowds have walked on)?

 

[Dani7]

I mean everything.

 

[Dani7]

There is a big wave and when I left St Jean last Sunday there had been over 400 people thst were leaving daily for 3+ days.

 

[Former member 59618]

I wonder if you are walking in a "wave" of pilgrims... maybe take a rest day and see if you can find room for the following day (when the crowds have walked on)?

This was my first thought as well. Also gives you a chance to rest your feet. Municipals don’t typically hold beds but, again, don’t hold me to this.

Worst case…get a taxi and go past Viana. If there’s no beds, there no beds.

 

[mspath]

Can you stay where you are for another night? Or go back to Sansol?
Or try this in Armañanzas telephoning tonight?

Furthermore the public Albergue Andres Munoz in Viana does not accept reservations. They open at noon. Take an early taxi and wait at the door.

Good luck and please let us all know what you do.

 

[alexwalker]

Are you checking availability through websites like www.booking.com, or do you contact places directly? I always do. Travelling websites only have some of the capacity available. Talking directly to each place may give you a better chance. Also, if you book directly, you will give them more money bc they don't have to pay fees to the booking companies. You get the same, or lower price, anyway.

 

[trecile]

The Albergue de Peregrinos in Logroño has 64 beds and does not take reservations. Is 20 km too far for you tomorrow?

Albergue de peregrinos de Logroño | Albergue de Peregrinos en Logroño | Gronze.com

Información del albergue de peregrinos Albergue de peregrinos de Logroño, en Logroño: Precio, plazas, características, etc...

www.gronze.com

If you have the money I see some hotels on booking.com

 

[C clearly]

I sympathize with your difficulties and hope you find a solution.

I just want to say, to provide perspective, that the May 1 weekend books up heavily all over Spain. I experienced it near Cordoba when walking the Mozarabe, for example.

By Tuesday, things will be better.

 

[dougfitz]

When I have found myself in this circumstance, I try these things in order:

• go forward, by taxi if necessary. Booking.com has some vacancies showing in Logrono, but nothing below 100 euro a night when I checked. You might also find vacancies in an albergue.
• go sideways, again use a taxi if you need to. The Viana area doesn't offer much prospect of doing that.
• stay where you are if you can, or go back enough to find a place.

In all of this, Gronze is a useful resource for getting contact details for properties on their list. Google maps also has contact details.

You seem to be doing most of the things I would do. I do hope you find somewhere soon.

 

[J Willhaus]

@Dani7 I think I mentioned yesterday that not all places can be reserved. That being said, I would see if there are others in your predicament and maybe consider sharing an AirBnB for tomorrow in Logroño. The parroquial in Logrono also cannot be booked and could be an option.

You may want to consider walking on to Navarrete and skipping Logrono. We stayed last summer at El Camino de las Estrella in Navarrette and it was fine. They still have beds on booking.com at this time for 12 euros. It is on the edge of town as you enter so you'll need to get to the center of town to eat. Not far though.

If you can't walk that far, maybe take a taxi and then taxi back to Logrono in the morning if you don't want to "skip" anything.

 

[Dani7]

No

The Albergue de Peregrinos in Logroño has 64 beds and does not take reservations. Is 20 km too far for you tomorrow?

Albergue de peregrinos de Logroño | Albergue de Peregrinos en Logroño | Gronze.com

Información del albergue de peregrinos Albergue de peregrinos de Logroño, en Logroño: Precio, plazas, características, etc...

www.gronze.com

If you have the money I see some hotels on booking.com

I can do 20 for sure. I think that’s the plan. I’ll check out when the open and make sure I’m there earlier. Thanks @trecile

 

[trecile]

No

I can do 20 for sure. I think that’s the plan. I’ll check out when the open and make sure I’m there earlier. Thanks @trecile

Gronze says that they open at 1:00 pm.

Another option that doesn't take reservations is Albergue parroquial Santiago El Real which has 30 beds.

Albergue parroquial Santiago El Real | Albergue de Peregrinos en Logroño | Gronze.com

Información del albergue de peregrinos Albergue parroquial Santiago El Real, en Logroño: Precio, plazas, características, etc...

www.gronze.com

 

[Rick M]

I have had luck with appealing to the hospitalero where I am staying. They seem to know who to call down the trail, since they do this every day. As was mentioned, you have the misfortune of passing through a city on a long weekend, but with a little luck you can find a municipal bed. Without any luck, it will turn into a question of money.......

Any other unfortunates you can share a hotel room with?

 

[alexwalker]

As others have said: Talk to your current hospitaler@s for help/assistance, call directly to albergues, go back/forward/sideways a little, or: Find a bench/church steps somewhere, roll out your sleeping bag, and have a good night: This has always been my last resort backup plan, but in 14 years and many Caminos, it was never neccessary.Take some discomfort if needed, and then move on.

Stay in-between those stupid recommended stages in the guides and meet nice people. Walk shorter days and relax; letting the stage-obsessed crowd pass you by (done that with great success a couple of times), or leave them for a few kms more.

Please: you are in Spain in a heatwave: A night sleeping out is nothing. It may even be fun. Said by an outdoor man.

Edit: There is a beautiful park on the way out of Logrono. Plenty of places to roll out a sleeping bag for a good night. The restaurant at the end of the park has good draft beer. And the next day you can walk to Navarette, which is a lovely place with many places to stay and an impressive church.

 

[Dani7]

I have had luck with appealing to the hospitalero where I am staying. They seem to know who to call down the trail, since they do this every day. As was mentioned, you have the misfortune of passing through a city on a long weekend, but with a little luck you can find a municipal bed. Without any luck, it will turn into a question of money.......

Any other unfortunates you can share a hotel room with?

Not found anyone. I’ll leave early and fingers crossed for the municipals.

 

[Dani7]

Thank you all for your experience and suggestions. Short term walking to Logrono tomorrow to get in hopefully in a municipal and be there before 1pm. If that does not work out I can go back or forward or sideways

 

[Former member 59618]

Stay in-between those stupid recommended stages in the guides and meet nice people. Walk shorter days and relax; letting the stage-obsessed crowd pass you by (done that with great success a couple of times), or leave them for a few kms more.

I’m stage-phobic. Where everyone is going…I will not thoust follow.

 

[MARSKA]

Please let us know how things work out for you Dani!

 

[Former member 59618]

Thank you all for your experience and suggestions. Short term walking to Logrono tomorrow to get in hopefully in a municipal and be there before 1pm. If that does not work out I can go back or forward or sideways

Who knows…the Camino may provide

 

[alexwalker]

I’m stage-phobic. Where everyone is going…I will not thoust follow.

And how rewarded we may be by that. Talking from experience.

Good desicions come from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions.

 

[Shalaw]

I need help from my community of pilgrims because there is nothing before and directly after Logrono. I’m in Torres del Rio for tonight. Anything before (Viana) and right after is booked. I know I can’t walk 33kms tomorrow to Navarrete. I struggled today with my arthritic feet doing Estella to here.

Any suggestions. Do municipals hold beds for cases like this?. The albergue here at to turn away a very tired pilgrim today.

It is SO very busy it’s kinda scary!!! Everyone is talking about it and have the same challenges.

Thanks for your help.

Maybe have a shorter day and stay in Logrono? We had our rest day there, booked the Carlton and it was fab! We didn’t stay on the Brierley stages though, as the albergues fill up quick.

 

[mspath]

Dani7,

Please be aware that the CF west of Torres del Rio will cross a deep ravine described on maps as mataburros or the mule-killer. You can avoid that strenuous trail by following the NA 1110 road to/through Viana.

 

[nilesite]

I need help from my community of pilgrims because there is nothing before and directly after Logrono. I’m in Torres del Rio for tonight. Anything before (Viana) and right after is booked. I know I can’t walk 33kms tomorrow to Navarrete. I struggled today with my arthritic feet doing Estella to here.

Any suggestions. Do municipals hold beds for cases like this?. The albergue here at to turn away a very tired pilgrim today.

It is SO very busy it’s kinda scary!!! Everyone is talking about it and have the same challenges.

Thanks for your help.

Albergues can only house as many pilgrims as they have beds. It’s hazardous to have pilgrims sleeping on the floors.

 

[Susan Peacock]

I sympathize. I am on my 10th Camino now and I have never seen so many people. Last night in Boadilla, they put down mats, the owner took a Japanese couple to his house and had to turn away many people. It’s more than just a wave. There are many groups, large suitcases everywhere and lots of people are reserved all the way through.

 

[mgnswaus]

I wonder if you are walking in a "wave" of pilgrims... maybe take a rest day and see if you can find room for the following day (when the crowds have walked on)?

Ivar, I’m in Carrion. It’s just the same around here. Pilgrims turned away into the rain last night in Boadilla. Many stressed about finding beds. Pilgrim numbers very high even before this weekend.

 

[J Willhaus]

I sympathize. I am on my 10th Camino now and I have never seen so many people. Last night in Boadilla, they put down mats, the owner took a Japanese couple to his house and had to turn away many people. It’s more than just a wave. There are many groups, large suitcases everywhere and lots of people are reserved all the way through.

I hope it is a symptom of the holiday weekend.

 

[Dani7]

Dani7,

Please be aware that the CF west of Torres del Rio will cross a deep ravine described on maps as mataburros or the mule-killer. You can avoid that strenuous trail by following the NA 1110 road to/through Viana.

Too late lol. Took it

 

[lt56ny]

No

I can do 20 for sure. I think that’s the plan. I’ll check out when the open and make sure I’m there earlier. Thanks

Adding to @trecile the EL Real Parish Hostel also does not take reservations https://www.gronze.com/rioja/logrono/albergue-parroquial-santiago-real[/USER]

 

[Dani7]

So. Left Torres del Rio this morning to wait in line for the municipal Albergue. So all good.

I need to sit down and plan more how I’m going to approach this Camino as there are more people than I could ever have expected.

So to Ventosa tomorrow and short day to Najera where I will have time to do some logistics planning about when and where for distances and Albergues. Thank you all so much for your support and help. Your kindness means a lot to me.

 

[J Willhaus]

Yes, try to stay off stage when you can. Azofra has an awesome albergue shortly beyond Najera. There are also several small towns with great albergues past Santo Domingo and before Belrado. Remember that not everyone allows reservations. In my opinion those are some of the best places anyway. We seldom reserve unless it is somewhere specific we want to stay like a parador or hotel in a bigger city. Check on gronze.com to see everything available and if you can reserve or not.

 

[MacMac]

I need help from my community of pilgrims because there is nothing before and directly after Logrono. I’m in Torres del Rio for tonight. Anything before (Viana) and right after is booked. I know I can’t walk 33kms tomorrow to Navarrete. I struggled today with my arthritic feet doing Estella to here.

Any suggestions. Do municipals hold beds for cases like this?. The albergue here at to turn away a very tired pilgrim today.

It is SO very busy it’s kinda scary!!! Everyone is talking about it and have the same challenges.

Thanks for your help.

Albergue Santiago Apostol in Logroño is available on Booking . Com for 14€ as of this moment. I booked that (am in Torres del Rio myself).

 

[Llew]

The Camino provides. Police or fire station as a last resort.

 

[good_old_shoes]

The parroquial albergue in Logrono is very nice.

Not the most beautiful or comfortable dormitories, but wonderful volunteers as hospitaleros, and a communal dinner.

Stayed there twice, and definitely recommend it. It doesn't take reservations so if you arrive early enough, most likely you'll have a bed there. I can't imagine they'll send away someone in need.

If all fails, there's a campsite in Logrono that also rents out bungalows. Maybe it is possible to share one with other stranded pilgrims.

Don't panic. Maybe take a few rest days to let the wave of pilgrims pass (it's a holiday weekend, most likely it will be more quiet in a few days).

 

[lvf]

So. Left Torres del Rio this morning to wait in line for the municipal Albergue. So all good.

I need to sit down and plan more how I’m going to approach this Camino as there are more people than I could ever have expected.

So to Ventosa tomorrow and short day to Najera where I will have time to do some logistics planning about when and where for distances and Albergues. Thank you all so much for your support and help. Your kindness means a lot to me.

You’re doing well! Keep us posted! Buen Camino!

 

[UUKatherine]

Hi from a week ahead where it’s also a challenge and not just the holiday weekend. However - we arrive at places that were supposedly fully booked and beds appear to be empty.

 

[Jaime Carrollo]

The Camino provides, but it also speaks. Hop in a cab and go somewhere off-route. Spain is a beautiful and hospitable country. This may be the most memorable day of your life. Savor it!

 

[J Willhaus]

Hi from a week ahead where it’s also a challenge and not just the holiday weekend. However - we arrive at places that were supposedly fully booked and beds appear to be empty.

There have been reports in past seasons of pilgrims who make multiple reservations and then dont show up or cancel at the last minute. Some hospitaleros will let your bed go at a certain time if you don't call and confirm you are still coming. Others now require payment in advance.

 

[AZtor]

Hi from a week ahead where it’s also a challenge and not just the holiday weekend. However - we arrive at places that were supposedly fully booked and beds appear to be empty.

I've seen a few comments to this effect now. My guess is people are panic booking anywhere they can find a room 'just in case' and just using the one most convenient.

It's a predictable consequence of this perception of a bed shortage.

 

[Former member 104756]

I need to sit down and plan more how I’m going to approach this Camino as there are more people than I could ever have expected.

Hi Dani. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but if you'd like a quieter route from Ponferrada you could take the Invierno. That's still a long way from where you are right now but something you may want to consider depending how things go ... All the best.

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

It is hard to schedule a pilgrimage in the Spring / Summer without hitting at least one Holiday along the Way.

Other options that most seem to not recommend would be asking to sleep in a farm's out buildings or barn. Buy food for yourself before looking at that possibility. Asking at a church may get a spot, in the church or other place(s).

On my first attempt at Camino Frances in 2016, I finally made it to Orisson. When it was my turn to book in, I had no idea if there would be a bed for me so I laid out my story;
I started from SJPdP early and it took me till now (4 pm), to get here. I do not mind sleeping even under this window (on my right) if there are no beds. Can you help?

She called one of the very handsome young men that work there to take my bag and show me to a bed, which was across the road, below the patio bar, not 1 km back toward SJPdP, where their overflow was.

Always be open tro putting your fate in the hands of the Hospitalero. Helping one more Peregrina gets them closer to canonhood.

 

[Joypilgrim]

Maybe have a shorter day and stay in Logrono? We had our rest day there, booked the Carlton and it was fab! We didn’t stay on the Brierley stages though, as the albergues fill up quick.

HI, Hope you got your needs met. There are certainly times that there are big waves of pilgrims....for example when the universities get out seemingly in early May. I also found that if I walk beyond the classic Brierly stopping points that I do better. If I keep going beyond those points and get away from the thrust of folks that helps. I have suspected this is a very big year for the camino with so many no and light year(s) during Covid. I will be behind you in May so am grateful for all this info.

 

[Dani7]

The Camino provides. Police or fire station as a last resort.

I told people that yesterday and they gave me the blank look like really? And I’m thinking “yeah really”.

 

[Susan Peacock]

I hope it is a symptom of the holiday weekend

I know the holiday usually adds some Spanish (I’ve walked this time of year a number of times) but the crowds are from everywhere.
See this post from Roncesvalles.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid0o5x9e9uMYNCFiQx6FtxzsdNiK8KRwUdoEyUZ47eoQZHD3zrfYwPZRdLhdp42xHSpl&id=100069297306056

 

[geraldkelly]

I will bet any money this person found a bed no problem.

 

[VNwalking]

See this post from Roncesvalles.

The sad post from Roncesvalles points to more than merely a wave. It points to too many people:

No nos gusta decirlo, pero el Camino está saturado y ya no es lo que era.

It sounds like the balance has tipped - more prebooking and touristic groups with luggage sounds just plain depressing:

I am on my 10th Camino now and I have never seen so many people. Last night in Boadilla, they put down mats, the owner took a Japanese couple to his house and had to turn away many people. It’s more than just a wave. There are many groups, large suitcases everywhere and lots of people are reserved all the way through

 

[henrythedog]

The sad post from Roncesvalles points to more than merely a wave. It points to too many people:


It sounds like the balance has tipped - more prebooking and touristic groups with luggage sounds just plain depressing:

Roncesvalles is (almost) unique in that there are few convenient options +/- 5km and there is realistically only one place to stay when you get there.

The rise of the pre-booked package-tour crowd has been very obvious in the last decade and it’s really not for me. The free market will favour the development of more facilities catering for that experience in due course and I can see it becoming like coal-mining in the UK: guided tours of ‘how things used to be’.

It is also peak season and to have anyone surprised by public holidays round Easter and May 1st only reinforces my view that the CF in season is becoming a peripatetic theme park. IMHO to be walking the CF at this time - if you have other options - may indicate a lack of research.

Happily, there are many other routes and twelve months to the year.

 

[Glen Moray]

The other option to taking a taxi is to get a local bus. These are really comfortable and cheap.

 

[thejoker]

I can see it becoming like coal-mining in the UK: guided tours of ‘how things used to be’.

Right...I've got first dibs of buying out San Bol

 

[Former member 104756]

Happily, there are many other routes and twelve months to the year.

Yes! I haven't walked the Frances since 2013 though I have a longing to walk that path again. So, we will be walking the CF / Invierno in November this year, and looking forward to that.

 

[Bradypus]

Yes! I haven't walked the Frances since 2013 though I have a longing to walk that path again. So, we will be walking in November this year, and looking forward to that.

I walked the Frances from SJPDP in January this year. A totally different experience from my last summer/autumn walk in 2016. It was like stepping back 30 years in some ways.

 

[doctorherman]

In Germany, there are still many camino routes with barely a soul. One can walk all day and not encounter another person.

For all those people that want total personal time, come to Germany and enjoy the sausage, beer, air, nature and camino life with no people.

 

[bubba]

I recently stayed at places that Booking.com did not list on their web site on the Norte.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Wow, It really must be different this year. I did the Camino France from mid April to mid May in 2022 and never had or heard of pilgrims having problems getting albergue beds.

At least not until after Sarria, then a couple nights i had to work harder. Maybe I got lucky and was between waves. I guess the only way to know, would be if the numbers are up for arrivals in Santiago?

 

[J Willhaus]

@ivar reported last week that pilgrims receiving a compostela are up every month so far this year. Sarria is still the #1 starting point.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

@ivar reported last week that pilgrims receiving a compostella are up every month so far this year. Sarria is still the #1 starting point.

Up from previous years?

 

[Bradypus]

I guess the only way to know, would be if the numbers are up for arrivals in Santiago?

The new pilgrim office statistics page gives a running total for the year to date. And a comparison with last year's figures. Up 27% on last year.

 

[dougfitz]

Up from previous years?

@ivar seems to report on this page or some variation of it: https://oficinadelperegrino.com/en/statistics-2/.

ps my apologies to @Bradypus, I didn't refresh my browser before posting this.

 

[iloveagoodadventure]

When I have found myself in this circumstance, I try these things in order:

• go forward, by taxi if necessary. Booking.com has some vacancies showing in Logrono, but nothing below 100 euro a night when I checked. You might also find vacancies in an albergue.
• go sideways, again use a taxi if you need to. The Viana area doesn't offer much prospect of doing that.
• stay where you are if you can, or go back enough to find a place.

In all of this, Gronze is a useful resource for getting contact details for properties on their list. Google maps also has contact details.

You seem to be doing most of the things I would do. I do hope you find somewhere soon.

Reading though this thread and thinking…humm I wonder if this will be me? My thoughts are with you.

Saw the mention of Gronze as a resource, but I don’t see an app for it. Details on this resource would be awesome!

 

[J Willhaus]

You need to use a browser for Gronze.com. no app.

 

[Bradypus]

Saw the mention of Gronze as a resource, but I don’t see an app for it. Details on this resource would be awesome!

There isn't a Gronze app yet. But it works very well on a mobile phone browser. On my Android phone both Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge browsers do a good job in translating it to English.

 

[Roland49]

I follow a portugese couple that posted a video walking by the queue up to the Pilgrims Office in SJPdP.
The queue was 200-300m long. Apparently there is much traffic on the CF now.

 

[Bradypus]

The queue was 200-300m long. Apparently there is much traffic on the CF now.

The pilgrim office website just reported 1,386 arrivals so far today. And they are due to stay open for another four hours or so. Huge numbers.

 

[peregrina2000]

I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised that the numbers keep growing with no end in sight. Look at Versailles, Notre Dame before the fire, Sintra Palace, etc etc. Those places are pretty much endless conga lines, no time to stop and enjoy, just keep moving, people shoving behind you, yet people keep on pouring in. It doesn’t seem like there is a breaking point. It sounds like the Camino Francés may be in the same category. I think it’s unrealistic to think that we can “do” anything to change things, and I agree with those who hope that the craziness stays on the Francés and doesn’t spill over to other routes. But the Primitivo,the Portugués, and the Norte seem to be showing some of the same signs. I very much hope to walk the Francés again, but I think I’ll follow the example of @Bradypus and @Pelerina and head out in winter.

 

[Roland49]

I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised that the numbers keep growing with no end in sight. Look at Versailles, Notre Dame before the fire, Sintra Palace, etc etc. Those places are pretty much endless conga lines, no time to stop and enjoy, just keep moving, people shoving behind you, yet people keep on pouring in. It doesn’t seem like there is a breaking point. It sounds like the Camino Francés may be in the same category. I think it’s unrealistic to think that we can “do” anything to change things, and I agree with those who hope that the craziness stays on the Francés and doesn’t spill over to other routes. But the Primitivo,the Portugués, and the Norte seem to be showing some of the same signs. I very much hope to walk the Francés again, but I think I’ll follow @Bradypus and @Pelerina’s example and head out in winter.

Yip, that's a fact. Last year I was on vacation in the Provence and you need to be there very early (6:30 to 7pm), before the Tourists rush in, to enjoy your views and stay. I arrived at 7pm in St. Paul de Vence, seeing the hamlet beeing prepared for the day, chatting with the locals.

After 10pm the narrow streets were so packed and crowded, that I decided to drive to the near Fondation Maeght (private chauffeur from the parking lot) and did stay there until the evening returning to the beaches of the Côte d'Azure and enjoying a bottle of fine wine as sundowner.

 

[dougfitz]

Saw the mention of Gronze as a resource, but I don’t see an app for it. Details on this resource would be awesome

There is a Gronze maps app for android. You will need to register on Gronze to use it, and at present it needs a data connection it you want more than the basic details it provides. But it does provide a useful portal into the website, and links to Booking.com from the app where that is an option for a particular property. The app does geo-locate, and appears to have reasonable mapping sourced from mapbox.

 

[lvf]

I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised that the numbers keep growing with no end in sight. Look at Versailles, Notre Dame before the fire, Sintra Palace, etc etc. Those places are pretty much endless conga lines, no time to stop and enjoy, just keep moving, people shoving behind you, yet people keep on pouring in. It doesn’t seem like there is a breaking point. It sounds like the Camino Francés may be in the same category. I think it’s unrealistic to think that we can “do” anything to change things, and I agree with those who hope that the craziness stays on the Francés and doesn’t spill over to other routes. But the Primitivo,the Portugués, and the Norte seem to be showing some of the same signs. I very much hope to walk the Francés again, but I think I’ll follow @Bradypus and @Pelerina’s example and head out in winter.

My husband and I completed the Portuguese Camino in the Spring of 2022 and hiked the CF in September of that same year from SJPP to Leon, where we had to stop due to getting sick with Covid. We’re looking at starting in Leon and walking to Santiago then Finisterre in later October or early November of this year. We’re hoping to have a quieter experience. We love hiking the Camino, and will continue to walk on other routes in seasons that are not so busy. It’s good advice to walk different routes in off seasons to avoid the tourist crowds.

 

[trecile]

Since @Dani7 found a place in Logroño to sleep the other night I will close this thread. If anyone wants to discuss the numbers of Pilgrims in the Camino this year there are other threads for that, or a new one can be started.