Fr. Richard Rohr on Tourist vs. Pilgrim

[Rebekah Scott]

Fr. Richard Rohr OFM is an American Franciscan priest and writer on spirituality based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He was ordained to the priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church in 1970. In 2011, PBS called him "one of the most popular spirituality authors and speakers in the world".

This is taken from a talk he gave at Lourdes; reprinted online as a daily meditation at https://cac.org/daily-meditations/pilgrims-not-tourists-2023-03-06/

Pilgrims, Not Tourists​

We continue sharing excerpts from Father Richard’s 1983 talks on pilgrimage. In this presentation in Lourdes, France, Richard offers some historical background on the practical actions that pilgrims had to take before they underwent a spiritual pilgrimage.
By the high Middle Ages, there were all kind of books written for pilgrims. These were spiritual books guiding pilgrims as to how to prepare themselves. Preparation was required before they went on pilgrimage.
First of all, you had to make amends with everyone you had ever wronged. Also, if you went on pilgrimage holding any kind of unforgiveness, it could not be a good pilgrimage. You couldn’t leave your town until you’d forgiven everyone who’d ever wronged you. Certainly, this is an attitude that we can pray for at the beginning of any pilgrimage: that God would keep our hearts open and loving, because a pilgrimage can’t just be a tourist trip. The meaning of a pilgrimage is an interior journey. Primarily, it’s an interior journey enacted exteriorly.
Richard shares his hope that his fellow pilgrims embark upon such an interior journey:
When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists. We’ve traveled around and said, “I saw this, and I saw that, and I bought this,” and so forth. But that’s what a tourist does, not a pilgrim. And God has called us on pilgrimage.
Secondly, and a practical, interesting thing, is that if they were going to go on pilgrimage, pilgrims had first to ask permission of their wife, husband, and family. The idea was that they had to leave everything in right relationship at home. If they had any material debts, they also had to pay those before they left. They couldn’t go on pilgrimage until their spiritual and physical debts were paid, and they had permission from all the right people.
Next, they had to go to confession before leaving. Sometime in the course of a pilgrimage, celebrating some kind of reconciliation was deemed very appropriate. Again, there’s that cleansing, that letting go. Perhaps those of us who’ve already been down to the Grotto [1] have seen the basin of water on the far end with the words that Mary spoke to Bernadette. It states, “Go wash your face and cleanse your soul.” What a symbol of reconciliation! It’s a prayer. Above all else, pilgrimage is praying with your body, and it’s praying with your feet. It’s an exterior prayer, and the exterior prayer keeps calling you into the interior prayer.



[1] The Grotto of Massabielle is the place where the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared to Bernadette Soubirous in 1858.
Adapted from Richard Rohr, On Pilgrimage: Lourdes, Holy Land, Assisi, Rome (Cincinnati, OH: Franciscan Media, 2014), CD.

 

[Marbe2]

Many years ago, when we were both young. I had the privledge of making a weeks preached retreat with Richard Rohr…just a few years after his Ordination. He was inspiring then, and he has been, indeed, a gift, leader and prolific spiritual writer, inspiring many after Vatican II.

I agree that “ The meaning of a pilgrimage is an interior journey. Primarily, it’s an interior journey enacted exteriorly” However, The Spirit moves as s/he wills. Perhaps someone starts the journey just interested in the exterior journey. Can not the external journey itself, the quiet, the human sharing, the beautiful nature, one experiences, call one to internal reflection and where that may lead.

I wish, we could stop defining what a pilgrim is, period. It is exclusive…

 

[AnneO]

I really cannot stand the judgmentalness of deciding who is a pilgrim and who is not. It always just so happens that the person believes themself to be a pilgrim and others who choose to do things differently are mere tourists. Why the need to label people? Does it make them feel superior? That certainly cannot be in the true spirit of the Camino.

And yes, I realize am judging those who judge.

 

[Bradypus]

That certainly cannot be in the true spirit of the Camino.

Who gets to decide what the true spirit of the Camino is?

 

[CTLawGal]

I am new to this forum, and my first Camino pilgrimage starts in a month, so I apologize in advance if replying to this thread seems pretentious or otherwise out of line.

I am Jewish and not a religious person. I see my pilgrimage as more along a spiritual path, but I found the passage that starts this thread to be beautiful and helpful in terms of guiding your own intent, not necessarily judging someone else's path.

I think walking with intent can be a useful and enriching practice, and that is the meaning I take from this passage, whether I chose to complete all the "steps" or not. I have done a lot of walking to prepare for my Camino, and there are times when the external focus does bring you back to the internal focus. It seems very similar in this way to yoga, where the practice is physical but the focus is internal and it brings you to a different place, where otherwise, as my teacher reminds us, it is just physical exercise.

At the same time, in yoga (and on any other spiritual journey), it is not really important what other students in the class are doing, whether to them the practice is an emphasis on physical or spiritual, again as my teacher reminds us, "you do you". In other words, do not judge others, let the practice be only about yourself; you do not know what the other person is experiencing, and someone who starts out purely for the physical (external) may come to find the beauty of the spiritual (internal). That has been my own evolution, I did not start yoga to lead a more spiritual life or become a better person, but that has been my journey.

So - getting back to the Camino - I guess, we do not need to judge what others are doing on their Camino (that person did not prepare enough, that other person is walking as a tourist, etc.), we must walk our own Camino, let go of what others are doing, but have compassion for the suffering of others and let go of judging - and doing that over a long period (my own Camino will last for 6 weeks) can be a profound experience.

I feel that if I can wake every morning with gratitude in my heart, experience the beauty of where I am in each moment, let go of judging others, no matter how tired I feel or my feet ache, I will have accomplished what I set out to do, I will have approached the internal from the external. So I thank Rebekah for this post as a timely reminder before I leave in a month for my own Camino.

 

[JKR]

I just read this in the daily newsletter from the Center for Action and Contemplation. I am not Catholic, but I value the wisdom of others.Fr Rohr comes from a long Franciscan tradition. He understands sacrifice, and giving, and listening to God. He understands pilgrimages from a Catholic viewpoint. The Way of St James is Catholic.
And no, we dont have to agree with his idea of what a pilgrimage is, but to take what is meaningful to us.
Thank you for posting.

 

[Former member 102963]

I have no idea who this chap is, but of course he is entitled to his viewpoint but it is not more valid than anyone else’s, and I hope he feels the same way! Anyway I’m am defo not a pilgrom and definately a hiker, but respect all folks equally!

I really cannot stand the judgmentalness of deciding who is a pilgrim and who is not. It always just so happens that the person believes themself to be a pilgrim and others who choose to do things differently are mere tourists. Why the need to label people? Does it make them feel superior? That certainly cannot be in the true spirit of the Camino.

And yes, I realize am judging those who judge.

 

[David Tallan]

I am Jewish and not a religious person. I see my pilgrimage as more along a spiritual path, but I found the passage that starts this thread to be beautiful and helpful in terms of guiding your own intent, not necessarily judging someone else's path.

And if you go right after Yom Kippur, you will already have done many of the most difficult preparatory steps.

 

[JKR]

I have no idea who this chap is, but of course he is entitled to his viewpoint but it is not more valid than anyone else’s, and I hope he feels the same way! Anyway I’m am defo not a pilgrom and definately a hiker, but respect all folks equally!

You might want to peruse the website and review some of his writings.

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[Chris Day]

Who gets to decide what the true spirit of the Camino is?

Well said, Bradypus….Agree, absolutely and with your later comment.

I regularly receive RR’s items to ponder, but like much that’s generally “out there”, some will resonate personally and some just doesn’t seem to. Richard Rohr often speaks against judgemental and “dualistic” viewpoints, although he can seem to be quite overly clear in what he conveys and expresses sometimes. He speaks from his own personal conviction though and is sincere, I believe.
There are things I used to express years ago that I simply wouldn’t now and things now expressed, I possibly won’t in years to come.

For as many folk that undertake Caminos, I often think that there are equally as many reasons…all personal and all equally valid.

 

[Bradypus]

I have no idea who this chap is, but of course he is entitled to his viewpoint but it is not more valid than anyone else’s, and I hope he feels the same way!

I disagree. If someone has spent a great deal of time and effort in studying an issue and then reflecting upon it then I think their conclusions carry more weight than those of people whose opinions are uninformed by knowledge or personal experience. Amongst the first things I ask myself when I read an argument is "Who is speaking here?" and "What basis do they have for their assertions?" Not all viewpoints are of equal value.

 

[Kathor1]

I really cannot stand the judgmentalness of deciding who is a pilgrim and who is not.

Hi @AnneO, this forum has already seen many discussions about who is a pilgrim and who is a tourist, who is a real pilgrim or an authentic pilgrim or a true pilgrim ...

You may have noticed that the talk was given at Lourdes by a Franciscan friar and ecumenical teacher (https://cac.org/about/our-teachers/richard-rohr/). Lourdes is a world-famous pilgrimage destination and the typical Lourdes pilgrim travels by train or bus to Lourdes and not on foot. So this is about a general idea of pilgrimage - at least that is how I understand it - and not specifically about pilgrimage on foot or about the Camino. These days, I view the contemporary Camino(s) to Santiago as something quite specific and unique. Something very multi-faceted where standard definitions or uniform definitions of pilgrim and pilgrimage and interpretations based on history or on individual religious-philosophical views do not provide a good fit. Buen Camino!

 

[josephmcclain]

Thanks for posting this, Rebekah. Richard Rohr is part of my morning read moment. I love what he says about "pilgrimage is praying with your body, and it’s praying with your feet. It’s an exterior prayer, and the exterior prayer keeps calling you into the interior prayer." I am not catholic but find what he writes to be very spiritual in a universal kind of way. And imagine that he would be surprised to find people thinking he, of all people, was being judgemental.
Of course, of course everyone has the right to do a Camino for their own reason whatever that might be. I have, as all of us have, heard people say they are doing it for exercise. And when I hear that I want to jump in and say it can be so much more than that. But, you know, I have come to believe that the camino takes over eventually and, indeed, the days of excercise often become much more than just that.

 

[MichaelB10398]

Many years ago, when we were both young. I had the privledge of making a weeks preached retreat with Richard Rohr…just a few years after his Ordination. He was inspiring then, and he has been, indeed, a gift, leader and prolific spiritual writer, inspiring many after Vatican II.

I agree that “ The meaning of a pilgrimage is an interior journey. Primarily, it’s an interior journey enacted exteriorly” However, The Spirit moves as s/he wills. Perhaps someone starts the journey just interested in the exterior journey. Can not the external journey itself, the quiet, the human sharing, the beautiful nature, one experiences, call one to internal reflection and where that may lead.

I wish, we could stop defining what a pilgrim is, period. It is exclusive…

I don't see any conflict with what Father Rohr said and what you have said. Of course, it is still a pilgrimage. Is that not what Rohr said also - the exterior prayer is always calling us to the interior prayer?
The discussion of pilgrimage is a worthy topic - attempting to judge who is and who is not a real pilgrim is the problem. Our place is not to attempt to judge others, but with a loving heart, accept all that we meet and be a source of peace and acceptance. Not for what they do, but for who they are - a child of God beloved and cherished.

 

[Ernie Fraser]

I read Rohr’s reflection yesterday and think the headline is misleading. He writes about the interior of a pilgrimage and does not make comparisons with tourists. Let’s (myself included) stay away from the comparison stuff especially when it judges others.

 

[alexwalker]

Richard Rohr - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[J Willhaus]

Really people, despite what we want to believe about ourselves, we do all make judgements (many of them snap) and we are always comparing. It is part of human nature to do so. It is hard to walk your own walk without judging others. I remember being so angry with a group of adolescents who arrived at a bar on a hot day in Galicia and drank every single cold drink available before I arrived to get one. I was certainly judging their status as pilgrims and felt they were just a bunch of noisy, rowdy youth led on an "adventure" by teachers because I was judging them by own selfish standards and motives after having walked for 40+ days before they even started.

If you are a tourist, adventurer, pilgrim, hiker, etc. someone will have an opinion no matter how you view yourself. We don't need to argue about this. Just maintain a thick skin and do your thing and try not to let it interfere with someone else's Camino.

 

[MattBersagel]

I take Richard Rohr's thoughts on pilgrimage as an invitation to a particular shape of a Camino experience, not a prescription or litmus test. I'm glad to consider any thoughtful or inspirational approach that could possibly inspire my own journey in life. Thanks to so many who are willing to share the window through which they see the journey.

 

[ronhenry2]

This is a topic dear to my heart even though I am not traditionally religious. I also happen to be an admirer of Richard Rohr. Knowing what I know about him, the last thing he would do is judge someone's motives for walking the Camino. I have walked Camino several times and each time I chose to walk mostly alone for the solitude/contemplation. I would frequently walk a few minutes, rarely up to an hour with someone else. Here are a couple of stories. I walked with a woman for almost an hour who had strong notions about pilgrimage. She was critical of "all those people who think they are pilgrims and don't even stay in bunk rooms." Oops, that was me! I had learned, by getting quite sick, that I simply can't/don't sleep in bunk rooms with a bunch of others. If I'm going to walk pilgrimage I have to sleep! This encounter was perfect for me. Why? Because I had secretly judged others who had vast amounts of luggage carried forward. I had privately judged a woman who said openly, "I walk for the hell of it--to have a good time!" My thought about her was, "how shallow." I could tell other stories. But what emerged was my own judgement of people I did not know and had no right to judge. Facing this judgemental attitude of mine was obviously something I began to deal with in my contemplation.
I believe it is almost a given, in the broadest sense of the word, that we humans are on a journey--a pilgrimage through life. Perhaps for some it is more conscious than for others. In my case El Camino de Santiago has been and is a significant part of the pilgrimage of my life since 2012. I will be returning to walk the Portugúes mid May of this year. I look forward to what emerges and challenges me. I am 81 years old and still on pilgrimage through this life.

 

[NancyZ]

I am new to this forum, and my first Camino pilgrimage starts in a month, so I apologize in advance if replying to this thread seems pretentious or otherwise out of line.

I am Jewish and not a religious person. I see my pilgrimage as more along a spiritual path, but I found the passage that starts this thread to be beautiful and helpful in terms of guiding your own intent, not necessarily judging someone else's path.

I think walking with intent can be a useful and enriching practice, and that is the meaning I take from this passage, whether I chose to complete all the "steps" or not. I have done a lot of walking to prepare for my Camino, and there are times when the external focus does bring you back to the internal focus. It seems very similar in this way to yoga, where the practice is physical but the focus is internal and it brings you to a different place, where otherwise, as my teacher reminds us, it is just physical exercise.

At the same time, in yoga (and on any other spiritual journey), it is not really important what other students in the class are doing, whether to them the practice is an emphasis on physical or spiritual, again as my teacher reminds us, "you do you". In other words, do not judge others, let the practice be only about yourself; you do not know what the other person is experiencing, and someone who starts out purely for the physical (external) may come to find the beauty of the spiritual (internal). That has been my own evolution, I did not start yoga to lead a more spiritual life or become a better person, but that has been my journey.

So - getting back to the Camino - I guess, we do not need to judge what others are doing on their Camino (that person did not prepare enough, that other person is walking as a tourist, etc.), we must walk our own Camino, let go of what others are doing, but have compassion for the suffering of others and let go of judging - and doing that over a long period (my own Camino will last for 6 weeks) can be a profound experience.

I feel that if I can wake every morning with gratitude in my heart, experience the beauty of where I am in each moment, let go of judging others, no matter how tired I feel or my feet ache, I will have accomplished what I set out to do, I will have approached the internal from the external. So I thank Rebekah for this post as a timely reminder before I leave in a month for my own Camino.

Buen Camino

 

[ronhenry2]

Really people, despite what we want to believe about ourselves, we do all make judgements (many of them snap) and we are always comparing. It is part of human nature to do so. It is hard to walk your own walk without judging others. I remember being so angry with a group of adolescents who arrived at a bar on a hot day in Galicia and drank every single cold drink available before I arrived to get one. I was certainly judging their status as pilgrims and felt they were just a bunch of noisy, rowdy youth led on an "adventure" by teachers because I was judging them by own selfish standards and motives after having walked for 40+ days before they even started.

If you are a tourist, adventurer, pilgrim, hiker, etc. someone will have an opinion no matter how you view yourself. We don't need to argue about this. Just maintain a thick skin and do your thing and try not to let it interfere with someone else's Camino.

I totally agree. I had a similar experience with teenagers. It was just one of several encounters that blatantly confronted me with my own spirit of judgement. I just finished a post about how pilgrimage taught me about my judgmentalism. Thank you for your post here.

 

[Kathor1]

Knowing what I know about him, the last thing he would do is judge someone's motives for walking the Camino

And how could he judge someone's motives for walking the Camino? The talk was given in 1983. Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983!

From the text:

When we return home in three weeks or less

What does this mean? Does anyone know? Is this a multi-city trip to Lourdes, Rome and Jerusalem?

 

[JabbaPapa]

When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists. We’ve traveled around and said, “I saw this, and I saw that, and I bought this,” and so forth. But that’s what a tourist does, not a pilgrim. And God has called us on pilgrimage.

Well, I've been home for over a month, but all of this sounds exactly right -- and I have yet to really "finish" this last Camino in this sense. And it's not been three weeks, but total over a year of walking, and this last time more than 7½ months.

There are what seem to be purely material reasons why this Camino is still not quite finished -- except that properly, in Pilgrimage, material and spiritual and religious are not opposites.

Too few pilgrims of the Way of Saint James understand that their material destination is home, not Compostela nor even less Finisterra, nor the proper Spirituality of the Way, but instead "make it up as you go along".

As to any religious destination, well, there's a can of worms ...

 

[JabbaPapa]

Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983!

That is not true.

It has existed for centuries.

Perceptions, experiences, expressions, and so on, they all change --

Mutatis mutandis, omnia mutanda.

But this is not a mere walk through nor to ,some places nor locations.

 

[frbobs]

Fr. Richard Rohr OFM is an American Franciscan priest and writer on spirituality based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He was ordained to the priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church in 1970. In 2011, PBS called him "one of the most popular spirituality authors and speakers in the world".

This is taken from a talk he gave at Lourdes; reprinted online as a daily meditation at https://cac.org/daily-meditations/pilgrims-not-tourists-2023-03-06/

Pilgrims, Not Tourists​

We continue sharing excerpts from Father Richard’s 1983 talks on pilgrimage. In this presentation in Lourdes, France, Richard offers some historical background on the practical actions that pilgrims had to take before they underwent a spiritual pilgrimage.
By the high Middle Ages, there were all kind of books written for pilgrims. These were spiritual books guiding pilgrims as to how to prepare themselves. Preparation was required before they went on pilgrimage.
First of all, you had to make amends with everyone you had ever wronged. Also, if you went on pilgrimage holding any kind of unforgiveness, it could not be a good pilgrimage. You couldn’t leave your town until you’d forgiven everyone who’d ever wronged you. Certainly, this is an attitude that we can pray for at the beginning of any pilgrimage: that God would keep our hearts open and loving, because a pilgrimage can’t just be a tourist trip. The meaning of a pilgrimage is an interior journey. Primarily, it’s an interior journey enacted exteriorly.
Richard shares his hope that his fellow pilgrims embark upon such an interior journey:
When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists. We’ve traveled around and said, “I saw this, and I saw that, and I bought this,” and so forth. But that’s what a tourist does, not a pilgrim. And God has called us on pilgrimage.
Secondly, and a practical, interesting thing, is that if they were going to go on pilgrimage, pilgrims had first to ask permission of their wife, husband, and family. The idea was that they had to leave everything in right relationship at home. If they had any material debts, they also had to pay those before they left. They couldn’t go on pilgrimage until their spiritual and physical debts were paid, and they had permission from all the right people.
Next, they had to go to confession before leaving. Sometime in the course of a pilgrimage, celebrating some kind of reconciliation was deemed very appropriate. Again, there’s that cleansing, that letting go. Perhaps those of us who’ve already been down to the Grotto [1] have seen the basin of water on the far end with the words that Mary spoke to Bernadette. It states, “Go wash your face and cleanse your soul.” What a symbol of reconciliation! It’s a prayer. Above all else, pilgrimage is praying with your body, and it’s praying with your feet. It’s an exterior prayer, and the exterior prayer keeps calling you into the interior prayer.



[1] The Grotto of Massabielle is the place where the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared to Bernadette Soubirous in 1858.
Adapted from Richard Rohr, On Pilgrimage: Lourdes, Holy Land, Assisi, Rome (Cincinnati, OH: Franciscan Media, 2014), CD.

Thanks, Rebekah, for the original post. Reminded me of a quote from Thomas Merton that I love: "The geographical pilgrimage is the symbolic acting out of the inner journey. The inner journey is the interpretation of the meaning and signs of the outer pilgrimage. You can have one without the other, but it is best to have both." Bob

 

[ronhenry2]

Thanks, Rebekah, for the original post. Reminded me of a quote from Thomas Merton that I love: "The geographical pilgrimage is the symbolic acting out of the inner journey. The inner journey is the interpretation of the meaning and signs of the outer pilgrimage. You can have one without the other, but it is best to have both." Bob

I have included this quote in a memoir I wrote. I resonate with it. For me, it has been both. I also know many people who have never gone on a walking pilgrimage who, nevertheless, have been on conscious pilgrimage in their lives--probably more profoundly than my own.

 

[Kathor1]

That is not true. It has existed for centuries.

I know I should have typed it in bold: Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983.

 

[Gerard Griffin]

It's a fascinating distinction, tourist or pilgrim ... We naturally all "judge", or subjectively describe, our fellow caminards on many axes, including this one. Perhaps it's like buddha-nature, of which the fool has no less, and the wise man no more ... I've met tourists who were on an inner journey, and serious pilgrims who were having a whale of a time. You never know, and that's the fun of it.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

I really cannot stand the judgmentalness of deciding who is a pilgrim and who is not. It always just so happens that the person believes themself to be a pilgrim and others who choose to do things differently are mere tourists. Why the need to label people? Does it make them feel superior? That certainly cannot be in the true spirit of the Camino.

And yes, I realize am judging those who judge.

The Camino Santiago is a pilgrimage to the shrine of a catholic saint. Hence strictly speaking, only those of Christian faith and only if they follow the intent of a catholic pilgrimage are pilgrims in the sense of this pilgrimage route. It is the right of the Roman Catholic Church to define what a pilgrim on one of their routes of pilgrimage actually is. I myself would probably fail the requirements of this stricter definition – but I feel neither sad nor offended.

I would just not call all the rest simply "tourists" though. I think many are on their own and personal pilgrimage even if it does not matter much for them who the saint is. They might even be of different faith or atheists or whatever – still many of them will be on a spiritual journey, or a journey of their mind, some will be seekers of answers and some will be seekers of calmness. Hence I would call these people also pilgrims, but pilgrims of a different kind ;-)

Words have sometimes different definitions and that is OK.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

"When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists."
Here I would argue though, that one cannot walk for weeks without automatically being on an interior journey as well. Our minds just do not work like this, you cannot avoid it. Such a drastic change in daily life and routines plus the monotone rythm of walking longer distances always has an effect on the interior, on the mind.

 

[Rex]

Thanks for the thought provoking posts. I’m just trying to muddle through on my various “pilgrimage hikes” but invariably find myself changed in an interior way after each successive one. As a very flawed follower of the Rule of St Benedict, these hikes give me time to reflect and consider where I am versus where I might wish I were on my personal journey. None of this “navel gazing” stops me from having a wonderful time when I’m out hiking for miles each day, or having a pint (or three) at the pub with fellow travelers at the end of each day.
It’s the journey, not the destination, for me. RR has put it in terms that he can live with and have historic significance to a certain group of people. By his criteria, my Camino may or may not measure up, but that does nothing to validate or invalidate my personal pilgrimage.
I enjoy reading the writings of Fr Rohr and many other practical theologians, but often disagree with them, as I’ve crafted my own theological views after 40 years of studies. They are mine alone (in a Kierkegaardian sense). I’m good with that.
Buen Camino.

 

[Kathor1]

"When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists."
Here I would argue though, that one cannot walk for weeks without automatically being on an interior journey as well.

I don't think that he addressed people who walked for three weeks. Rather, it is people who travelled for three weeks on a pilgrimage and to pilgrimage sites (USA, France, Italy, Israel, USA). Forget about the walking element which is a big factor for Caminos but not important in relation to the text.

 

[henrythedog]

I’m trying not to have an opinion on this; but if I were offered a questionnaire which said ‘ this statement on the status of a pilgrim has been approved by Richard Rohr, @JabbaPapa and @Rebekah Scott do you agree?’

I’d probably just tick the ‘yes’ box

 

[Karen Schoenfelder]

I personally loved this article and do not find it judgmental in any way. I take it at face value (not in a not in a criticizing way or like he’s pointing a finger at someone and telling them they are not a pilgrim) and hope that my pilgrimage will change me in someway for the better. It would do the world good if everyone would make peace with their brother!
Thank you so much for sharing!

 

[Arctic_Alex]

I don't think that he addressed people who walked for three weeks. Rather, it is people who travelled for three weeks on a pilgrimage and to pilgrimage sites (USA, France, Italy, Israel, USA). Forget about the walking element which is a big factor for Caminos but not important in relation to the text.

Ok, maybe I interpreted it in the wrong context, as a pilgrimage other than by walking a large part of it is so outside of my personal considerations. But you are right!

 

[Rex]

Ok, maybe I interpreted it in the wrong context, as a pilgrimage other than by walking a large part of it is so outside of my personal considerations. But you are right!

Personal experience with one pilgrimage that was a bus tour of many "sacred sites/shrines"... never again. By day three many of us were referring to it as a forced march that was uncompromising regarding personal preferences for lingering at some places and abandoning others post-haste. Discovered later that several of my close friends loved it... Experience helped me see that walking "my own way" was going to have to be how it gets done. Still great friends with most of that group, but only a couple of them have ventured onto the slower ways of pilgrimage. So be it.

 

[David Tallan]

I read Rohr’s reflection yesterday and think the headline is misleading. He writes about the interior of a pilgrimage and does not make comparisons with tourists.

I think the headline is reflecting this part of the article and Rohr's words:

...because a pilgrimage can’t just be a tourist trip. The meaning of a pilgrimage is an interior journey. Primarily, it’s an interior journey enacted exteriorly.
Richard shares his hope that his fellow pilgrims embark upon such an interior journey:
When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists. We’ve traveled around and said, “I saw this, and I saw that, and I bought this,” and so forth. But that’s what a tourist does, not a pilgrim. And God has called us on pilgrimage.

Note, once again, that Rohr is talking to pilgrims to Lourdes rather than pilgrims to Santiago. The two pilgrimages differ in a number of ways. I think there is a lot of wisdom in what Rohr says. I also don't tend to like the "pilgrim" vs "tourist" discussions and the judgements that often ensue. But I'm not going to let those lead me to ignore what Rohr said, as reported.

 

[RJM]

Go ahead and fling arrows at me (and cast a few stones ) but I can definitely say I have observed people who are walking the Camino who are 100% tourist.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

Go ahead and fling arrows at me (and cast a few stones ) but I can definitely say I have observed people who are walking the Camino who are 100% tourist.

Nah ... no stones, just yellow arrows ...

 

[VNwalking]

The article needs to be taken on context of time and place. The knee-jerk reaction of some posters here (who are neither taking that into account nor reading the link in the OP) is predictable, though. Anything to have a good argument about pilgrims versus tourists. There are people on the camino who are 100% pilgrims. There are people who are 100% tourists. And there are the majority of us who are somewhere in between those extremes.

Where on that continuum we happen to fall is a moving target - changing as we move along the camino and even through a single day. The absolute determinism of pigeonholing ourselves or someone else as a pilgrim or not misses a much more subltle reality.

 

[scott the farmer]

One of the things my Caminos have taught me is to be less judgmental a lesson I hold dear !

 

[Philtration]

Thank you Rebekah, for posting this. The camino is an opportunity for growth, personal, and/or spiritual. Richard's words offer a possible way to get more of the spiritual from the experience. Really, they apply as well for everyday living as for caminos/pilgrimages.

I started my camino as an adventure. At a point as I walked, I began to experience a spiritual aspect as well. For months after I returned home, I kept unpacking more and more. I'm glad I walked. I'm glad there are caminos to challenge us personally and spiritually. And I'm glad there are people like Richard with clear thoughts to shake up my every day perspectives.

 

[RJM]

One of the things my Caminos have taught me is to be less judgmental a lesson I hold dear !

I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?
It's a serious question because personally I don't see a correlation between the two.

 

[RJM]

The article needs to be taken on context of time and place. The knee-jerk reaction of some posters here (who are neither taking that into account nor reading the link in the OP) is predictable, though. Anything to have a good argument about pilgrims versus tourists. There are people on the camino who are 100% pilgrims. There are people who are 100% tourists. And there are the majority of us who are somewhere in between those extremes.

Where on that continuum we happen to fall is a moving target - changing as we move along the camino and even through a single day. The absolute determinism of pigeonholing ourselves or someone else as a pilgrim or not misses a much more subltle reality.

I didn't find any of the reactions to really be knee jerking. No comments were overly dramatic. Just differing opinions.

 

[scott the farmer]

I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?
It's a serious question because personally I don't see a correlation between the two.

I made some judgments that were wrong and was lucky enough to have them pionted out .I also took the time to talk to the persons involved and learnt some home truths. I suppose on the Camino you are there for a long and intense time so it seems easier to learn from your experiences . Anyway its how it worked for me !

 

[wisepilgrim]

Cautiously sticking neck out here to say that in my 20 years as a pilgrim I would not be the person I am today if I did not carefully consider the advice of those that came before me. I owe a debt to the wisdom of people like Rebekah who are steadfast in their ability to challenge my means and methods in a way that I can convert into upward growth. If I were to have every met every wise word with dismissal and the self assured notion that I was going to do it my way, I would have missed out on a lot of great experiences. These days I actively look for ways to be challenged out of my confidence.

To me the most fascinating part of the article is all of the preparation needed. I imagine that if I were required to do all of the preparations, and amends-making of a pilgrim in the Middle Ages, then I would not really have to go on pilgrimage at all because by that point the pilgrimage would be a vacation from all of the hard work.

 

[VNwalking]

I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?
It's a serious question because personally I don't see a correlation between the two.

If you listen to other's stories it's pretty clear that your own judgy ideas about them are often pure fiction, made up out of air. It only takes a few epic mistaken impressions to create a natural restaint in following those stories. Because..
Who knows?

 

[JabbaPapa]

I know I should have typed it in bold: Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983.

I have met pilgrims who did their Caminos in the 1950s, and many of my own experiences, especially in more distant parts of these Ways of Saint James, were very similar indeed to what they experienced themselves.

The Camino is more than just a string of hostelries along a hiking trail. Always has been, and always will be.

They had their hostelries and their preferential walking routes centuries ago as well, and those too were separate to what it is.

Dormitories fitted out with bunk beds are incidental to the Camino, and the difference between the support structures on the Francès between the 1980s and the 2020s is not a fundamental difference.

I ended up sleeping outdoors on several parts of my 2020s Camino even more than on the Paris > SJPP portion of my second 1990s one, and seeking hospitality and help from the same types of sources.

The Camino is a vast network of Pilgrimage Ways of Saint James, and some perceptions that some people may have doesn't change that.

 

[woody66]

Thanks, Rebekah, for the original post. Reminded me of a quote from Thomas Merton that I love: "The geographical pilgrimage is the symbolic acting out of the inner journey. The inner journey is the interpretation of the meaning and signs of the outer pilgrimage. You can have one without the other, but it is best to have both." Bob

They say a picture paints a thousand words;this is a picture in words you need no more!
Woody

 

[JabbaPapa]

The Camino Santiago is a pilgrimage to the shrine of a catholic saint. Hence strictly speaking, only those of Christian faith and only if they follow the intent of a catholic pilgrimage are pilgrims in the sense of this pilgrimage route.

That's actually not quite true, given that this particular Pilgrimage accepts as a pilgrim anyone going to make a visit "ad limina" of the tomb of the Apostle with "religious" and/or "spiritual" purpose. Including if pilgrims might have such intent or close enough, but declare differently for some reason.

So make your Way to Santiago, visit the Cathedral, that generally makes you a "pilgrim" in the eyes of the Church. And BTW, similar is not the case for most other Catholic pilgrimages, most of which being BTW very local ones.

 

[JabbaPapa]

To me the most fascinating part of the article is all of the preparation needed. I imagine that if I were required to do all of the preparations, and amends-making of a pilgrim in the Middle Ages, then I would not really have to go on pilgrimage at all because by that point the pilgrimage would be a vacation from all of the hard work.

Most Portuguese who walk to Fátima do so in a manner very like those of the mediaeval pilgrims.

They walk in groups, sometimes quite large, from their villages, especially for the feast days, walk very long distances usually, 50K to 60K is not unusual (some pilgrims walking alone can walk up to 100K in a single day), often sleep and cook outdoors, and they do so for essentially religious purposes.

And yet, for them it's still very often exactly a vacation from all of the hard work, because many of them are peasants or other manual labourers, with hardened bodies from non-stop work all year 'round.

The religious requirements of their pilgrimages are a variable, mostly depending on if it's a pilgrimage of a family, a community, or a parish group.

 

[Robo]

I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?
It's a serious question because personally I don't see a correlation between the two.

I have certainly found it to be the case. I am a lot more tolerant and less judgemental now.

I think it comes from meeting so many people, from so many cultures, backgrounds and situations that we might in the normal course of events not meet. And we meet them on a 'level playing field'. In that we are all just Pilgrims. It's not about where you live, what your drive, what your job is. In my experience these topics never come up and are of no interest to anyone.

So with all of that, we are engaging with a very broad cross section of people. All with different perspectives and views on life. And different life experiences and situations. Mix that with the sense of community and support amongst Pilgrims, and you have in my view a unique cocktail.

It provides an environment where we are far more interested in our fellow travellers. Why they are walking, their stories, and the 'inner person' rather than the outer shell that we might normally take more notice of in daily life back home.

The result? We become more interested in our fellow Pilgrims, and tend not to 'write them off' too quickly based on how they look, act, dress or what they say.......

And often, we discover amazing people, that in the normal course of events we would never engage with.

So Yes. That cocktail 'mix' has taught me to be less judgemental and more tolerant.

..

 

[Kathor1]

I know I should have typed it in bold: Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983.

To be blunt: I don't quite get why there could be a need to discuss this comment at length.

Obviously - no, let me better qualify this: To me at least it is obvious that there are numerous fundamental differences between now and then. One big difference: then, it was nearly exclusively Catholics who went on pilgrimage to Santiago (and I put these words in bold because it is not necessary to state that other travellers were on those roads, too). Then, the motivations were not as varied as now and the experiences were not the same either. At least I have never read in an earlier account that pilgrims to Santiago made friends for life from around the world, had Camino families, carried ashes of a relative or friend with them, tried to come to terms with a divorce etc etc and that these experiences were very important to them (again in bold because it is a general observation that applies to many but not to each and every individual). It was a feeble attempt to compress a greater picture into a short sentence and I now start to regret that I even bothered to write it.

The initial post is, at least that's my understanding and I am happy to be corrected, about how peregrin@s who have a specific concept of, or intention for, their own Camino in Spain can prepare themselves for it or adjust themselves to it.

 

[Robo]

Go ahead and fling arrows at me (and cast a few stones ) but I can definitely say I have observed people who are walking the Camino who are 100% tourist.

No argument from me at all. Definitely......
But I don't think it's a crime.
And maybe some start out as Tourists...........and end as Pilgrims

 

[JabbaPapa]

Doesn't go back as far as 1983, but an 8% increase in non-religious motivations isn't a "fundamental" difference.

And it's worth remembering that modern touristification of the Francès in particular began in 1965, in the attempt by the Spanish Government of the time to promote the Camino as a form of tourism.

So it's only in the period of neglect of the pilgrimage, between the mid to late 18th Century or so and the 1950s to 1960s that the contemporary Camino can be said to be "fundamentally" different to.

OED "fundamental" -- 2.A.2 Of or pertaining to the foundation or ground-work, going to the root of the matter.

The varying incidentals attached to the Ways of Saint James are not fundamentals -- although of course, in some particulars the differences over the course of History are huge.

Not sure why the fuss about debating comments posted in what is partially a discussion forum.

 

[StephenHLanark]

FWIW, I think experience (I.e. aging)generally teaches you to be less judgmental, as you often become less sure of yourself . However my wife says I became a kinder person after my first CF. But….

 

[Turga]

FWIW, I think experience (I.e. aging)generally teaches you to be less judgmental, as you often become less sure of yourself . However my wife says I became a kinder person after my first CF. But….

Judging, prejudice – maybe it is part of the human nature? In 1841, J. Fenimore Cooper observed: "Prejudice…..This tyrant of the human mind, which rushes on its prey through a thousand avenues, almost as soon as men begin to think and feel, and which seldom relinquishes its iron sway until they cease to do either."

Perhaps we have to live with it, but yes, we can learn to be more aware of it and strive to manage it better in our relations with others.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?

For me, the act of walking is the first component of learning. I walked without a daily goal, there was nowhere that I needed to be that day and so after an initial period each day of getting myself up and going my mind was free to wander. Inevitably, for me, my mind went over prior conversations and often I saw how I had acted righteously and had judged others.

The second component was the mix of people from different cultures and with differing viewpoints. This really helped me see that there isn't just one right way of doing something. I find it so easy to think that my own cultural viewpoint is the righteous one.

Lastly, the spiritual nature of the Camino tends to present many formal and informal opportunities to think deeply about the things and the people around me, including myself.

 

[RJM]

I have certainly found it to be the case. I am a lot more tolerant and less judgemental now.

I think it comes from meeting so many people, from so many cultures, backgrounds and situations that we might in the normal course of events not meet. And we meet them on a 'level playing field'. In that we are all just Pilgrims. It's not about where you live, what your drive, what your job is. In my experience these topics never come up and are of no interest to anyone.

So with all of that, we are engaging with a very broad cross section of people. All with different perspectives and views on life. And different life experiences and situations. Mix that with the sense of community and support amongst Pilgrims, and you have in my view a unique cocktail.

It provides an environment where we are far more interested in our fellow travellers. Why they are walking, their stories, and the 'inner person' rather than the outer shell that we might normally take more notice of in daily life back home.

The result? We become more interested in our fellow Pilgrims, and tend not to 'write them off' too quickly based on how they look, act, dress or what they say.......

And often, we discover amazing people, that in the normal course of events we would never engage with.

So Yes. That cocktail 'mix' has taught me to be less judgemental and more tolerant.

..

I guess for me before I ever walked the Camino I had done all the things one does when one walks the Camino. I had already lived in a communal environment. I had already put many kilometers on my feet while wearing a backpack. I had already worked with and lived with people of different backgrounds, cultures, preferences, socioeconomic levels and I myself was raised in what would I suppose be called lower middle class. To me walking the Camino was an unexplainable spiritual/religious calling of sorts I still can't explain. I also liked the sort of adventure-travel aspect of it of course. Who wouldn't? I never walked it to find myself or mull over an impending divorce, career change or any other "find myself" category, and afterwards never thought wow, that taught me to be non-judgemental. I didn't see anyone doing anything on the Camino to be judgemental about. Critical about? Sure. I make no apologies about calling out the idiots who trash the Camino with litter and graffiti. Also the immature and selfish who do rude things at albergues. They damage all pilgrims when they do this.

 

[dougfitz]

The Camino Santiago is a pilgrimage to the shrine of a catholic saint. Hence strictly speaking, only those of Christian faith and only if they follow the intent of a catholic pilgrimage are pilgrims in the sense of this pilgrimage route. It is the right of the Roman Catholic Church to define what a pilgrim on one of their routes of pilgrimage actually is. I myself would probably fail the requirements of this stricter definition – but I feel neither sad nor offended.

I don't agree with this line of analysis. If I take the second point first, the Catholic Diocese at Santiago has defined the requirements for receiving the Compostela, and it is clearly an inclusive statement that allows others of different Christian practices and other religions to get that. More, St James is a Christian saint, and even were the Catholic Diocese to narrowly define who could receive the Compostela, this wouldn't prevent other Christians from wanting to undertake a pilgrimage to his tomb, nor would it prevent others from different religions wanting to honour a significant figure, even if not one of their own faith.

In my view, how the Catholic Diocese of Santiago might define the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is only relevant inasmuch as it governs who might receive a Compostela. It is irrelevant for other things because it says nothing about the motivation of the individuals who are walking to St James' tomb and about whether they are pilgrims.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

I don't agree with this line of analysis. If I take the second point first, the Catholic Diocese at Santiago has defined the requirements for receiving the Compostela, and it is clearly an inclusive statement that allows others of different Christian practices and other religions to get that. More, St James is a Christian saint, and even were the Catholic Diocese to narrowly define who could receive the Compostela, this wouldn't prevent other Christians from wanting to undertake a pilgrimage to his tomb, nor would it prevent others from different religions wanting to honour a significant figure, even if not one of their own faith.

In my view, how the Catholic Diocese of Santiago might define the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is only relevant inasmuch as it governs who might receive a Compostela. It is irrelevant for other things because it says nothing about the motivation of the individuals who are walking to St James' tomb and about whether they are pilgrims.

You are certainly right as in I totally forgot about the Compostela and the requirements to get it. If you take that as a definition of pilgrimage, then you got a point here ...

 

[Arctic_Alex]

Well, we could at least all agree that this is also a discussion about definitions. And as definitions are man-made and arbitrary – meaning you cannot deduct them by logic from anything – they are always a good starting point for discussions without end and without a final and definite conclusion

 

[dougfitz]

Well, we could at least all agree that this is also a discussion about definitions. And as definitions are man-made and arbitrary – meaning you cannot deduct them by logic from anything – they are always a good starting point for discussions without end and without a final and definite conclusion

Indeed, only made worse by assuming that others in the conversation might have anything like the same understanding of terms, ie of the semantics, when really we only share syntax.

This thread started with a classic example of that, comparing pilgrims and tourists, and attempting to make some distinction between these as separate classes of travellers. I have suggested before that this might be a flawed notion, and that we are all travellers, most of us are tourists and only then might we also be pilgrims.

Most reject this notion because we have loaded the word 'tourist' with so much emotional luggage that it is almost always seen as a pejorative label to attach to anyone. That is so unnecessary, but hardly surprizing when we want to attribute to ourselves positive images of our behaviour and beneficial impact on the places to which we travel.

However, if we take the time to be dispassionate about this, and ask for the essence of 'What is a tourist?', I suggest we will then find ourselves challenged to consider ourselves as tourists. Not travellers participating in some frenzied mass tourism activity in large, noisy groups simply for pleasure or recreation, but people who have travelled away from our homes for some religious, spiritual or cultural experience that participating in pilgrimage offers us.

Why do I think this? Well, it goes to who might be defined as a tourist. Here there are 22 definitions and descriptions of what it means to be a tourist. One of the simplest is: A person who travels and stays overnight at a destination, due to one or more motivations. Even when there are more complex descriptions, I suggest most of the cultural or religious activities we undertake fit within what it means to be a tourist.

Some of these descriptions might give you hope that you can distinguish between travellers, tourists, visitors, etc. But not many, and they are not supported by the definitions used by the UN World Tourism Organization at this link.

That said, I can understand should some find it difficult, wish to cleave to the pejorative ideas you have associated with being a tourist, and want to give yourself some warm and comfortable feeling about not being a tourist, when really what you are objecting to is some stereotypical behaviours. This seems deeply ingrained in the discussions that we have on this forum.

Nevertheless, I hope that you give this sufficient thought to see that, as pilgrims, for the most part we are travellers, and within that broader group, we are also tourists.

 

[OZAJ]

I don't agree with this line of analysis. If I take the second point first, the Catholic Diocese at Santiago has defined the requirements for receiving the Compostela, and it is clearly an inclusive statement that allows others of different Christian practices and other religions to get that. More, St James is a Christian saint, and even were the Catholic Diocese to narrowly define who could receive the Compostela, this wouldn't prevent other Christians from wanting to undertake a pilgrimage to his tomb, nor would it prevent others from different religions wanting to honour a significant figure, even if not one of their own faith.

In my view, how the Catholic Diocese of Santiago might define the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is only relevant inasmuch as it governs who might receive a Compostela. It is irrelevant for other things because it says nothing about the motivation of the individuals who are walking to St James' tomb and about whether they are pilgrims.

Motivation, intention. These are the keys. And they don't necessarily have to be focused on St James or even Christianity, unless your focus is on St James and Christianity.

 

[David Tallan]

Doesn't go back as far as 1983, but an 8% increase in non-religious motivations isn't a "fundamental" difference.

And it's worth remembering that modern touristification of the Francès in particular began in 1965, in the attempt by the Spanish Government of the time to promote the Camino as a form of tourism.

So it's only in the period of neglect of the pilgrimage, between the mid to late 18th Century or so and the 1950s to 1960s that the contemporary Camino can be said to be "fundamentally" different to.

OED "fundamental" -- 2.A.2 Of or pertaining to the foundation or ground-work, going to the root of the matter.

The varying incidentals attached to the Ways of Saint James are not fundamentals -- although of course, in some particulars the differences over the course of History are huge.

Not sure why the fuss about debating comments posted in what is partially a discussion forum.

There was a minor difference between the "non-religious" in 2009 and 2018, but I wouldn't call the sixfold growth between the 1.5% "cultural" in 1989 and the over 9% in 2009 insignificant. Neither would I so label the drop in purely religious from over 80% to just over 40%. There is certainly continuity in the experience from the 1980s to the 2000s. But there are also differences. How could there not be, with a growth from around 5000 compostelas in the year of my first Camino to over 400,000 given out last year if I remember correctly?

Regarding the touristification of the Camino in the 1950s and 1960s, I think it was somewhat different to what we see today. As I recall reading, it wasn't about having more people walk the Camino, but about having more people drive the Camino. I know when I went to the tourist office in Madrid in the late 80s for information about the Camino I got, among other things, a booklet from the 70s which showed the Camino Frances and all of the gas stations along the route. Nowadays, we would be looking for the water fountains. I still have that booklet.

 

[Kathor1]

There was a minor difference between the "non-religious" in 2009 and 2018, but I wouldn't call the sixfold growth between the 1.5% "cultural" in 1989 and the over 9% in 2009 insignificant. Neither would I so label the drop in purely religious from over 80% to usjust over 40%. There is certainly continuity in the experience from the 1980s to the 2000s. But there are also differences.

FWIW, the source of the pie charts is Who is interested in Developing the Way of Saint James? The Pilgrimage from Faith to Tourism, an article that can be read and downloaded on researchgate.net. The abstract starts with: The Way of St. James in Spain is the main European pilgrimage route. Currently, it is a cultural, tourist, monumental, spiritual, and sports route.

They analyse data from a variety of sources. Percentages vary and depend not only on the chosen methodology but of course also on the options that a person had been presented with when filling out a questionnaire or responding to the interviewer. When the options that you are given for your motivations are religious; religious and other; non-religious (only one choice possible) or when the given options are nature/scenery; sociability; religion; art; and others (several options can be ticked) then two quite different pictures emerge. And as we know and as the authors point out when your answer will decide whether you get a coveted Compostela or not, you may be more inclined to tick religious and other - and it's not a lie because after all you went to pilgrim masses and got pilgrim blessings which were no doubt a valued and appreciated religious element of your Camino.

 

[Kathor1]

When the options that you are given for your motivations are religious; religious and other; other (only one choice possible)

Oh, and how could I forget about this because this is really a good one: Before they had the current online questionnaire, pilgrims filled out a paper form at the Oficina del Peregrino (see copy below). The three options for an individual's reason for the pilgrimage on this paper form were: religious; spiritual; sports or tourism. How they converted these three options into the three categories religious; religious and other; non-religious that they used in their published statistics is anyone's guess. See also the post of a volunteer at the Oficina with a background in statistics in this context. Quite useful to be aware of this when you want to discuss percentages and motivations of Camino pilgrim walkers and how representative or meaningful these data and categories actually are.

 

[JabbaPapa]

There was a minor difference between the "non-religious" in 2009 and 2018, but I wouldn't call the sixfold growth between the 1.5% "cultural" in 1989 and the over 9% in 2009 insignificant.

Nor would I, and so I didn't.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Oh, and how could I forget about this because this is really a good one: Before they had the current online questionnaire, pilgrims filled out a paper form at the Oficina del Peregrino (see copy below). The three options for an individual's reason for the pilgrimage on this paper form were: religious; spiritual; sports or tourism. How they converted these three options into the three categories religious; religious and other; non-religious that they used in their published statistics is anyone's guess.

Pilgrims frequently tick more than one of those boxes.

If someone were to cycle part of his Camino then walk the rest, or walk from SJPP to Santiago but cycle the meseta, he might tick both of those boxes for example. Here "non-religious" means that the pilgrim has ticked neither the "religious" nor "spiritual" box. Also the short interview in the pilgrim's office clarifies how the motivations end up being recorded administratively. Nothing new in this, no guesswork, it's been that way since at least the early 1990s ...

As to my own Caminos, only the 2005 would have been recorded as "religious" alone. My 1993, 1994, 2014, and 2019-2021-2022(-2023) would all be recorded as "religious and other".

 

[Kathor1]

Pilgrims frequently tick more than one of those boxes.

Only one option ends up in the Oficina’s computer and in their statistics.

PS: Edited to add clarification, just in case it's necessary: The Oficina del Peregrino's published statistics and any interpretation, discussion and further conclusions on the basis of the published statistics ignore multiple choices that the peregrin@ may have made when filling out the paper form. The current online form does not allow multiple choice anyway.

 

[Kathor1]

This thread started with a classic example of that, comparing pilgrims and tourists, and attempting to make some distinction between these as separate classes of travellers. I have suggested before that this might be a flawed notion, and that we are all travellers, most of us are tourists and only then might we also be pilgrims.

Most reject this notion because we have loaded the word 'tourist' with so much emotional luggage that it is almost always seen as a pejorative label to attach to anyone. That is so unnecessary, but hardly surprizing when we want to attribute to ourselves positive images of our behaviour and beneficial impact on the places to which we travel.

However, if we take the time to be dispassionate about this, and ask for the essence of 'What is a tourist?', I suggest we will then find ourselves challenged to consider ourselves as tourists. Not travellers participating in some frenzied mass tourism activity in large, noisy groups simply for pleasure or recreation, but people who have travelled away from our homes for some religious, spiritual or cultural experience that participating in pilgrimage offers us.

Hear, hear! I nominate this post as a comment that should be made compulsory reading before any "pilgrim vs tourist" discussion .

As far as I can make out from the wider context of Richard Rohr's 1983 trip, he addresses plane & bus pilgrims on a religious tour - the very category that is often disqualified as "mere" tourists when Camino foot pilgrims comment about Santiago pilgrims on bus trips. Not surprising then that such tourists - who are on a relatively 'fast' trip and not a slow continuous walking trip - are reminded that they also ought to be pilgrims, and, for all I can see but I am happy to be corrected, what the speakers means is pilgrim as being a pilgrim with a relation to God / Jesus as understood by Christians.

Even when one is "not religious but spiritual" or identifies as neither of the two, one can learn something from the suggestions in the Meditations and practice them - anywhere and anytime of course, not necessarily as peregrin@s on foot in Spain. I noticed that there are currently several Daily Meditations on Pilgrimage on the website. The DM of March 8th, 2023 includes the topic of freedom from cynicism and judgment ...

 

[Kathor1]

It would perhaps make a nice change to discuss the concepts of "spiritual" and "not religious but spiritual" for a change instead of turning around and around the wide ranging concepts of "pilgrim", "pilgrim not tourist", "pilgrimage not a hike" and similar. I know of course that any word can mean anything but in general, what is meant when various people refer to "spiritual" in the context of the contemporary Camino de Santiago phenomenon?

 

[Kanga]

The Camino Santiago is a pilgrimage to the shrine of a catholic saint.

St James is not only a Catholic saint. He was one of the 12 apostles of Jesus. For Protestants that alone makes his supposed burial place worthy of pilgrimage.

 

[wayfarer]

These threads are like a holy hand grenade, someone throws it in and waits for the resulting fallout, religious versus spiritual, real pilgrim vs tourist, they never end well. We used to close them once.

 

[Kathor1]

These threads are like a holy hand grenade, someone throws it in and waits for the resulting fallout, religious versus spiritual, real pilgrim vs tourist, they never end well. We used to close them once.

Readers may have panicked at the first sight of this “holy hand grenade” but I feel that, altogether and all together, we managed to defuse it quite nicely, didn’t we?

 

[JabbaPapa]

Only one option ends up in the Oficina’s computer and in their statistics.

And, I wrote :

Also the short interview in the pilgrim's office clarifies how the motivations end up being recorded administratively.

 

[JabbaPapa]

These threads are like a holy hand grenade, someone throws it in and waits for the resulting fallout, religious versus spiritual, real pilgrim vs tourist, they never end well. We used to close them once.

Looks like it's heading that way.

Steering well clear personally of "religious" versus "spiritual" ...

 

[wayfarer]

Readers may have panicked at the first sight of this “holy hand grenade” but I feel that, altogether and all together, we managed to defuse it quite nicely, didn’t we?

Maybe so but it still brings all the old prejucices out of the long grass.

 

[StephenHLanark]

The Protestant Church of Scotland banned pilgrimages until about 25 years ago.

 

[Bradypus]

The Protestant Church of Scotland banned pilgrimages until about 25 years ago.

I can't recall the Kirk making any changes on the subject 25 years ago. The General Assembly finally got around to officially approving of the idea of pilgrimage in summer 2017!

 

[Kathor1]

I can't recall the Kirk making any changes on the subject 25 years ago. The General Assembly finally got around to officially approving of the idea of pilgrimage in summer 2017!

The Lutheran Churches in Germany have also embraced the concept of going on pilgrimage as "praying with your feet". Note that this expression is also used by Richard Rohr in the quote in the first post where he says: "Above all else, pilgrimage is praying with your body, and it’s praying with your feet."

However, to my knowledge, neither the Catholic nor the Protestant churches in Spain, France, Benelux, Germany, to name but a few, claim to have a say about who goes on pilgrimage and what inner attitude peregrin@s must have to be called pilgrims or see themselves as pilgrims, and they make no attempts to exclude anyone from using the contemporary pilgrimage trails as such.

Perhaps it is necessary to add this fact to each and every comment we make. Because I see no problems with discussing "pilgrim", "tourist", "religious" or "spiritual" or "none of these" or "secular" or "humanist" as such. Problems arise when people claim to have authority where they have none and when people claim superiority of use and exclusivity where there is inclusiveness - or when they don't do so but are misunderstood. And that inclusiveness on Caminos won't go away any time soon, and it's a good thing. IMHO.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I am very, very uncomfortable with this attempt to shift discussion towards religion as such.

Typing such stuff as "authority where they have none and when people claim superiority of use and exclusivity where there is inclusiveness" is to my mind intrinsically divisive, alien to the Camino, judgmental, attributive of some sort of malice to some class of pilgrims who have the exact opposite in intent, and just plain uncharitable.

To claim that "it is necessary to add this fact [sic] to each and every comment we make" is of the very absolutism that it purports to denounce.

The second most important thing that I have learned as a foot pilgrim in these 30 years of walking on these Pilgrim Ways of Saint James, after my Conversion, is that every Pilgrim's Camino is both precious and beautiful. Regardless anybody else's personal a priori or preconception or prejudice.

So that to complain of Pilgrims who shout out that the Camino is beautiful, that HERE is the Way, and to suppose "exclusivity" where instead there is an invitation and a welcome, not from any absurd "authority", but from a simplicity of love, is destructive in deepest degree.

---

And so here we are. And here's why Religion and Spirituality are off-topic on this forum.

Discussing the topics on the Camino itself, better than fine, topical ; but in here ? Off Topic un point c'est tout.

 

[JabbaPapa]

That it's an implicit attack against Rebekah just makes it worse.

 

[dougfitz]

That it's an implicit attack against Rebekah just makes it worse.

I cannot see how you reach this conclusion. @Rebekah Scott shared a reflection without any further comment about her position on that. Even if those of us who have followed her work over a number of years might infer that she has concerns about how the camino has moved away from the aspirations of those who worked so hard to re-establish the Camino de Santiago, discussing the content of the reflection is not an attack on her. More, we might infer she agrees with the underlying thrust of the reflection otherwise she wouldn't have shared it, but that doesn't mean that testing whether we share a common semantic understanding of the reflection is to attack anyone.

I think we should be concerned, but I think we do ourselves no great benefit if we attach misleading labels to the behaviours we are concerned about. Unless we can be more specific in seeking agreement about what is objectionable about 'tourigrinos', then I don't think we have moved forward.

 

[JabbaPapa]

a common semantic understanding

The Camino, a Pilgrim, and the Pilgrimage are not some "common semantic".

Indeed, Rebekkah's original post suggests entirely otherwise.

We Pilgrims are as much unlike each other as alike -- and we define our Ways not commonly, but individually and together.

My Camino ; Our Camino ; not some tedious, abstract common semantic expression.

Insofar as it is Our Camino, it is made of Us, sure -- but it is also made of dust, dirt, sweat, blood, tears, hardship, distance, absurdity, resolution, bloody-mindedness, despair, hope,, relief, and cheap three-course meals.

Reality far transcends any mere semantic.

 

[Kanga]

An interesting thread and an interesting discussion.

I was pondering the connection between "bunk beds" and "pilgrimage" and that took me down the rabbit hole of looking at the once common practice of communal sleeping. I particularly loved the note from John Adams' diary, recording the night in 1776 when he and Benjamin Franklin shared a bed. It seems the two spent the night bickering about whether to have the window open or closed.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

 

[Tincatinker]

I’m minded of this earlier thread https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/do-top-bunks-stop-bed-bugs.69152/post-893676

 

[VNwalking]

That it's an implicit attack against Rebekah just makes it worse.

What attack? Like Doug I honestly don't see it.
Anyway, Reb's a big girl, more capable of defending herself than mist people I know. If she feels attacked she will say so.

every Pilgrim's Camino is both precious and beautiful. Regardless anybody else's personal a priori or preconception or prejudice.

Of course. Absolutely.
And very personal.
Even if they start out as somone who may not look like a 'pilgrim'.
Which is why @Kathar1ina's observation is so apt:

Problems arise when people claim to have authority where they have none and when people claim superiority of use and exclusivity where there is inclusiveness - or when they don't do so but are misunderstood. And that inclusiveness on Caminos won't go away any time soon, and it's a good thing. IMHO.

A bit off topic but very funny. If it weren't on an official website, I'd assume it was a spoof:

I particularly loved the note from John Adams' diary, recording the night in 1976 when he and Benjamin Franklin shared a bed. It seems the two spent the night bickering about whether to have the window open or closed.

Plus ça change indeed.

We could squabble over this endlessly.
But can we just accept that everyone has their own perception of the camino and not take their opinions as anything more than that? They are not personal attacks, just opinions.

 

[Gerard Griffin]

The two are quite distinct but tourism can become pilgrimage. I remember two young women from Switzerland and Denmark on their first Camino clearly surprised by the experience of a communal dinner and discussion in a donativo albergue. I don't think they'd ever before seen the Christian life lived openly and simply. They were wondering what was going on. I like to think that they carried the question with them, and that perhaps their journey took on a different meaning.

 

[C clearly]

I do not understand what all the fuss is about, but if people are going to take and/or give offense, the thread will surely be closed soon.

 

[Marbe2]

I don't agree with this line of analysis. If I take the second point first, the Catholic Diocese at Santiago has defined the requirements for receiving the Compostela, and it is clearly an inclusive statement that allows others of different Christian practices and other religions to get that. More, St James is a Christian saint, and even were the Catholic Diocese to narrowly define who could receive the Compostela, this wouldn't prevent other Christians from wanting to undertake a pilgrimage to his tomb, nor would it prevent others from different religions wanting to honour a significant figure, even if not one of their own faith.

In my view, how the Catholic Diocese of Santiago might define the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is only relevant inasmuch as it governs who might receive a Compostela. It is irrelevant for other things because it says nothing about the motivation of the individuals who are walking to St James' tomb and about whether they are pilgrims.

Couldn’t agree more!

 

[CTLawGal]

I posted a reply early Monday morning on this thread, and as a new member have read the ensuing discussion with curiosity. I have been impressed with what also seems to me to be a respectful discussion of differences of opinions on many of the issues - although some commenters are more "forceful" than others in expressing their views, I didn't experience any "tone" that seemed unduly aggressive or disrespectful. Although I can see how others may disagree, I am grateful for this robust exchange of ideas and have learned a lot.

At the risk of re-opening the hornets' nest, I would just like to add a few thoughts based on my own experience and not in "judgement" of other responses in this thread.

I think the human condition is naturally judgmental - perhaps a result of primitive survival mechanisms. People tend to be observant and are quick to assess a situation. Someone made the distinction between "critical" and "judgmental" and for me that gets me part way there. In my personal practice, when I find myself having a reaction to a situation I have observed or hearing what I take to be a criticism of me, I try to ask myself, Why am I reacting this way? Why do I feel anger? And why am I letting this bother me?

And I think during the Camino, there is (if one wants) the time to think about this and for self-examination, and to try to be less "judge-y" by understanding my reactions and letting go of the hubris that comes with my judgments. Why does it matter what others are doing (yes, if they are being destructive, etc., it may matter), it is about my own path, not about how they are doing theirs? Am I a pilgrim or a tourist? It doesn't matter. Do I care that someone thinks I'm just a tourist? It shouldn't matter to me, but for some reason it might matter to them (but that is for them to figure out on their own path). Is it useful to me to question myself, am I pilgrim or tourist? I found the original post helpful because it served as a shorthand way to remind myself why I am choosing to walk, to keep focused on my intent (but also to be compassionate towards myself if I wander from it).

In my earlier post, I mentioned my yoga practice. While it may have started with the physical (asana), over time I came to see it as including a spiritual component and that it's not just about what you do on the mat, but also how you live off the mat. And can you use the relative safety of your physical practice to translate into your life off the mat? It's relatively easy to feel spiritual on the mat, but can you carry that into your daily life?

I think that in walking the Camino, there is an opportunity to practice in the relative safety of the time for contemplation, how you want to live when you return to your everyday life. Why does that make me angry? Am I wasting energy being emotional in my reaction? When I start to react, can I pause and just remind myself it doesn't matter to me if someone thinks I'm a tourist (or is making too much noise? or didn't walk as far as I did? or whatever it is that gets me into judge-y mode). For those who have written that your Camino has helped you become less judgmental, I think you know what I'm trying to express.

I think that we often allow our emotions to create prisons for ourselves. I think we can choose to become prisoners of our anger and ego, or we can learn to let all that go, wake every morning feeling gratitude and compassion, and feel happier because of it. And the Camino can be part of that freeing journey. It seems to me that so many of you on this forum have experienced something like that, and continue to return because of it. So beautiful and inspiring!

There is a Buddhist story I think about often, of two monks walking (maybe on a pilgrimage, I am likely forgetting details, but in this context I don't think it matters). Along the path, they see a woman who is unable to cross a river. The older monk offers to help carry her across and sets her down on the other side. As they continue to walk, the younger monk becomes increasingly agitated and finally turns to the older monk and says something to the effect of, how could you violate our vows by touching that woman to carry her across the river? The older monk responds, I put her down over an hour ago, you are still carrying her with you now. When I think about letting go of judgments, I like to remind myself of this story. Apologies in advance if this is an already previously much-discussed story and topic!

And thanks for your patience in getting to the end of this over-long post!

 

[daveag]

One of the more rememberable conversations I had in 2019 was with these two retired nurses from London—one Irish and one British. They were life long best friends. As we were settling in (late) into our Albergue one asked me and my best friend, “are you boys (we were then in our late 40s) pilgrims or tourists.” That led to great night of conversation over dinner and a couple of bottles sorting out the distinctions. Love this article. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

I posted a reply early Monday morning on this thread, and as a new member have read the ensuing discussion with curiosity. I have been impressed with what also seems to me to be a respectful discussion of differences of opinions on many of the issues -

Yes, this is what I really like about this forum. There seems to be an unusually high percentage of grown up sensible and respectful people on here! Not like the the rest of the internet, which often smells of sewage and once you play with it it sticks to your clothes and you take the smell home with you ;-)

 

[alexwalker]

This thread is a minefield

But over many years of walking different Caminos, I have seen numerous examples of so-called tourists ending up in Santiago as really spiritual/thinking individuals. I am therefore completely in line with @Rebekah Scott 's post, outlining the Fr. Richard Rohr OFM article.

I really resonate with it. Always give leeway to people, and allow change. It may be of interest to ponder over an old Arabian saying:

“He who knows not,
and knows not that he knows not,
is a fool; shun him.

He who knows not,
and knows that he knows not,
is a student; Teach him.

He who knows,
and knows not that he knows,
is asleep; Wake him.

He who knows,
and knows that he knows,
is Wise; Follow him.”

Luke 6.37: “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Just my 0.02 Euros.

 

[Purky]

It's relatively easy to feel spiritual on the mat, but can you carry that into your daily life?

This.

 

[dick bird]

“We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of our exploring
Will be to return to the place we started from
And to know it for the first time”

I guess if it didn’t mean so much to us, we wouldn’t have such strong opinions about it. At the end of the day we are all just penguins in the blizzard.

 

[Kathor1]

What attack? Like Doug I honestly don't see it. Anyway, Reb's a big girl, more capable of defending herself than most people I know. If she feels attacked she will say so.

A note first, merely for info: I try not to refer to @forum-members who do not participate in the thread. Forum members used to get an alert when their forum name is mentioned in a post but this function no longer works.

I did not attack the OP (original poster). I wrote, in general terms that problems [with forum threads] arise when people claim to have authority where they have none and when people claim superiority of use and exclusivity where there is inclusiveness or when they don't do so but are misunderstood. When I wrote this I had the OP (original post) in mind where my thoughts were included in the last part: Or when they don't do so but are misunderstood.

One can see in the early part of the thread that the first post got misinterpreted or misunderstood and perceived as making a general distinction between who is a pilgrim or may view themselves as a pilgrim on the Caminos de Santiago and who isn't or should not view themselves in this manner; the first post (and the aim of the thread) was interpreted as instructions as to what every Camino walker must do and strive for to deserve the pilgrim label. I didn't then and still don't understand the first post in this way. It was actually an objection to the first post that caused me to participate in the thread and try to offer a different and balanced perspective. A reminder of what it says in the first post: "spiritual books guiding pilgrims as to how to prepare themselves" ... "this is an attitude that we can pray for at the beginning of any pilgrimage: that God would keep our hearts open and loving" ... "the meaning of a pilgrimage is an interior journey" ... "and God has called us on pilgrimage" ... "cleanse your soul” ... "above all else, pilgrimage is praying with your body, and it’s praying with your feet. It’s an exterior prayer ... the exterior prayer keeps calling you into the interior prayer."

I understand this not as general statements about how peregrin@s on a Camino de Santiago must prepare themselves and about what kind of interior attitude they must have during their walk to Santiago but as the views of a Christian preacher who addresses his fellow Christians, and, by extension and presumably, that Camino peregrin@s of any faith and none can take from this address what they want and like and ignore the rest. I did not comment on the actual content of the first post - only on its temporal and spatial context.

My posts mainly refer to how the overall image of peregrin@s on the Caminos to Santiago is painted. I have come to the conclusion lately that the word pilgrims and even spiritual as they are commonly defined and understood (where spiritual has two commonly known and different definitions) fail to provide an accurate and complete picture of the contemporary Camino phenomenon, and that it would be better to move away from these definitions and categories and take into account the many different motivations of today's peregrin@s on Camino as well as the weight that their various motivations have. Inner change experienced and achieved on Camino can involve so much more than spiritual benefits (either faith-based or not): mental and emotional well-being, physical well-being, the feeling of "being away from it all", a profound and lasting feeling of restfulness, the benefits of social interaction with others, and simply the effects of joy in living on a precious and beautiful planet and of joy in experiencing our shared culture and history.

 

[t2andreo]

This has been a very LONG, but very interesting thread. Thank you all for contributing.

To me, it all just ratifies the first “rule” of the Camino. To wit: “each person walks their own Camino pilgrimage in the manner (and with the intention) they choose. None of us has the standing or right to dictate otherwise.”

The Camino started out in the mid-800’s AD, some 700 years before the Protestant Reformation. Historically, this makes the whole thing a “Christian” pilgrimage process. By right of possession, the Catholic Church brought order and a formal process to the Camino to the Apostle Saint’s relics at Santiago.

For whatever purpose it serves, the Church brought order and purpose to the act of pilgrimage to this holy place. Similar structures can be found at the major pilgrimage destinations of all the world’s major faith groups. The group possessing or controlling the holy place make the rules.

Every post in this thread has had great value. I have enjoyed reading each and every one.

Thank you to all.

Tom

 

[John Sikora]

I love all the preachers who spend hours and years defining what religion is and what spirituality is - along with the followers of said preachers at their feet listening to the words of wisdom. I'm much simpler. From the dictionary

Definition of Tourist - a person who is traveling or visiting a place for pleasure.
Definition of Pilgrim - a person who journeys to a sacred place for religious reasons.

So following simple logic that says no pilgrim would travel for unpleasantness - I guess I'm a person who travels for pleasure on a journey to a sacred place for religious (aka spiritual) reasons. Ya just don't need all the philosophical and theological trappings. It's not that tough.