Food Poisoning in Carrion de los Condes.

[Vanozza]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.

 

[trecile]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.

Any particular place you drank this?

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.

How long after you drank it did you have symptoms? How 'caliente' was the leche?

 

[C clearly]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful!

Where did you get unpasteurized milk?

To me, being careful would include not drinking unpasteurized milk at all unless, maybe, if I saw the cow being milked on the spot.

 

[Margaret Butterworth]

On my first camino, I was very sick indeed after eating trout at a restaurant in Carrion. This was the subject of my very first post on this forum. I wanted to warn others about this restaurant. The moderators took exception to my "naming and shaming". Over the five or so years since then, I have heard of many such gastro incidents in the area of Carrion and Terradillos. Perhaps it doesn't originate in one particular restaurant, but there is obviously something dodgy about the water in this area. I will be there again in a week's time and intend to be very careful what I eat and to drink only bottled water.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Post hoc ergo sum hoc.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Post hoc ergo sum hoc.

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[John H.]

Vanozza: Sorry to hear about your sickness. Unpasteurized milk is always risky for those of us whose stomachs are not accustomed to the additional bacteria. However, if the milk was heated to the correct temperature for enough time, it may have been something else. In the past I have read and kept a note: I only drink bottle water from Hornillos Del Camino to Carrion De Los Condes and to Moratinos. May or may not be necessary, but better safe than sorry.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

ONLY DRINK BOTTLED WATER FROM HORNILLOS DEL CAMINO TO CARRION DE LOS CONDES TO MORATINOS.

Or vino tinto....

 

[JillGat]

The thing about gastroenteritis is that it is hard to know when and how you ingested something tainted. Some germs show symptoms within an hour, others take a few days and a few take over a week to become symptomatic. This being said, I have noticed several (anecdotal) posts over the last couple of years from people getting sick in or shortly after Carrion de Los Condes. I'm also wondering if there is a water issue in that area.
(ps - does anybody else picture a buzzard/condor feeding on roadkill (dead animal) when they hear the name "Carrion de Los Condes"?)

 

[VNwalking]

Post hoc ergo sum hoc

Latin is spreading!
@falcon269 where were you when we needed you on that foreign language thread?

And yes, correlation doesn't mean causation, but there have been many reports of illness on that part of the meseta, going back at least 5 years:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/food-problems-between-carrion-and-ledigos.2

Whether it's the water or something more specific, it never hurts to be careful.

 

[Kathor1]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.

Sorry to hear that you got very sick. I hope you have recovered.

Never mind the water, that’s become ““common““ pilgrim knowledge and I doubt that the reason or source will ever be found.

So I take it that you were offered raw untreated milk (cow or other animal?). Was it from a farm or some albergue or bar with a particular emphasis on health or ecological food? No names necessary, just a general description.

I’m curious as I can never find what I’d call fresh milk in a supermarket cooler in this part of Spain. All they seem to have is UHT milk.

I’d run a mile from raw milk, btw. Don’t like the taste, whether truly raw or cooked to boiling point. Had it as a child. Still loathe the taste and look of it.

 

[camino.ninja]

A lot if pilgrims has stomach problems on the Meseta. It seems to come from tap water on the Meseta and particularly around Burgos, Boadillo del Camino and Carrion de los Condes. So it is probably a good idea to buy bottled water close to the industrial farming areas on the Meseta between Burgos and Astorga.
..........................

I'm kind of concerned my post was moved to another thread about someone having bad milk. My warning was about people ...like one third ...of a full city in high season getting sick from tap water in Carrion de Los Condes. It was people at different albergues, eating at different places, cooking themselfes. I know the tap water comes from the river and I also know pesticides and furtilizers does not get cleaned out of the tap water. If OP's on the forum think it's relevant to move my warning for pilgrims coming on the following days ...what is the point of this forum? But when I see people getting sick in those high numbers it is concerning. It is even more concerning the OP's here act like they do.

 

[Annette london]

A lot if pilgrims has stomach problems on the Meseta. It seems to come from tap water on the Meseta and particularly around Burgos, Boadillo del Camino and Carrion de los Condes. So it is probably a good idea to buy bottled water close to the industrial farming areas on the Meseta between Burgos and Astorga.

Thank you for that
Will keep it in mind for next rime
Yesterday an OP posted a similar post re the water around Carrion
Annette

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Bars will give you a cold fill-up from their water spigot on the beer tap! As a courtesy, buy something; but the water is free.

 

[dougfitz]

Have notices been posted that town water from taps is non-potable? If not what is the basis of this?

 

[nidarosa]

It could also be a regular bout of "camino flu", possibly norovirus, we caught it near Boadilla in September last year and never drank untreated tap water.

 

[Pilger99]

I don't know how long this warning appears in the guide books. Maybe only 10 years, maybe 20?
Why it has to be repeated again and again and again ...
You can also find that warning for the first 2/3 of Via de la Plata and other arid zones in Spain.

The water from the tap is controlled, purifified (with UV light) and chlorified all over Spain! For that reason it does not have any bacteria and tastes bad. In the meseta it may contain more fertilizer, nickel, lead, ..., than usual, but it is still good enough for humans. People with reduced health defence (from heat, sun-burn, bad sleep, different food) may already show an reaction, but you'll never really know the origin.

If people drink water from the few fountains there is always more risk. In Galicia you will find warnings if the water is "not controlled", but in other places I saw only "no potable" for probably very bad water and mostly no sign at all.

Summary: If you feel uncomfortable with tap water buy your liquids or take a filter with you. With the latter you can drink from any pond or puddle.

 

[PiryatJos]

Yes. Definitely a great tip. Many people where sick after what turned out to be the same water pump. I had also drank a little from it but only a few mouthfuls. I was not too good but we'll enough to not stop me. I always carried an unopened bottle of water with me after then so I could always be sure I have clean water. Sure, water might be safe for human consumption but I'm not used to that flora and I'm very hot from the blinding sun and tired from walking. I'm not in the best condition. I still drank out of fountains sure but any chance I thought it was not right I didn't drink it.

 

[Vanozza]

Any particular place you drank this?

Yes, it was at my hotel’s breakfast buffet. I am not mentioning the name because I don’t want to hurt their business — might just be a one-off problem.

 

[Hurry Krishna]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.

Are you sure about the source of your food poisoning? We walked last September-October and a very large number of pilgrims (including me) became very ill in or around that area. There were many different theories about what had caused this. A lot of people believed that the water in the area was bad and those who had consistently drunk bottled water has escaped the problems. Hope you are well now.

 

[Vanozza]

Sorry to hear that you got very sick. I hope you have recovered.

Never mind the water, that’s become ““common““ pilgrim knowledge and I doubt that the reason or source will ever be found.

So I take it that you were offered raw untreated milk (cow or other animal?). Was it from a farm or some albergue or bar with a particular emphasis on health or ecological food? No names necessary, just a general description.

I’m curious as I can never find what I’d call fresh milk in a supermarket cooler in this part of Spain. All they seem to have is UHT milk.

I’d run a mile from raw milk, btw. Don’t like the taste, whether truly raw or cooked to boiling point. Had it as a child. Still loathe the taste and look of it.

It was available on the unattended breakfast buffet. It tasted very good but the earthy cow smell was the dead give-away. I put about 3-4 ounces into my coffee.

 

[Michael-FL]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.

So sorry for your illness. Every time I’ve gotten food poisoning I felt like “carrion”. Hopefully we can all learn from this and be careful. How can we tell if the milk or milk product is pasteurized?

 

[Vanozza]

How long after you drank it did you have symptoms? How 'caliente' was the leche?

I was feeling bad within a couple of hours but did not start vomiting for another 7 hours. Then the diarrhea started a few hours after that. The hotel proprietors took me to a clinic where I got hooked up to an IV drip. I spent the next day or so rehydrating and trying to eat so that I could take the train from Leon to Bilbao and then back home.

 

[Vanozza]

So sorry for your illness. Every time I’ve gotten food poisoning I felt like “carrion”. Hopefully we can all learn from this and be careful. How can we tell if the milk or milk product is pasteurized?

Unpasteurized milk is creamier in appearance and taste plus it has a distinctively EARTHY (cow) smell which I find slightly revolting. I have never been sick from drinking it before, but all of my alarms will go off in the future at that aroma.

 

[Vanozza]

How long after you drank it did you have symptoms? How 'caliente' was the leche?

It was hot enough for good cafe con leche caliente but it did not burn the lips.

 

[Michael-FL]

(ps - does anybody else picture a buzzard/condor feeding on roadkill (dead animal) when they hear the name "Carrion de Los Condes"?)
[/QUOTE]
JillGatt, I thought the same thing too, the first time I encountered the name. I can’t help but think of buzzards and roadkill, which was exactly how I felt on my three bouts of food poisoning.

 

[SSojourn]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.

Maybe you were lactose intolerant. Can happen anytime. How fresh? Cow to you. That's how I like it, and I only order if that is possible. I'm sorry. You help me watch myself. In Pakistan unpasteurized milk gives people fatty tumors, not dangerous, lumpy, scary. I don't know how much or often one has to drink it??

 

[t2andreo]

There could be any number of valid reasons for this instance. "Food poisoning" or acute onset gastroenteritis is only one such possibility. This much dreaded ailment while on Camino has many causations.

It has been established, and discussed here in the forum that farm-based contamination of the water table by fertilizers and pesticides over generations of farming has caused many if not all springs and public fountains to be non-potable, unless specifically tested and posted as safe to consume. For some years now, and at least here in the forum, we have advised pilgrims to seriously consider bottled water between Carrion de los Condes and Sahagun.

I and other veterans are NOT categorically stating that ALL fountains and non-posted potable water sources on this segment are bad. We are reacting to the empirical evidence and advice of local residents on this stretch of the Camino Frances.

This said, there are no known problems with the residential or business water supply, Basically, if it comes from the tap at a cafe, restaurant, hotel or albergue, it can be considered safe and potable. Spain's public water systems are known and tested as safe...period...

Again, all things considered, personally, I am über sensitive to these things. So I start going on bottled water ONLY from Fromista, before Carrion. I stay on bottled water as long as I can, but at least until Leon. This is NOT an indictment of Spanish water treatment. Rather, it is me acting out of an overabundance of caution.

My view is short of actual physical death, this is the malady I fear most while on Camino. I mean not having regular spaced banos so one can plan ahead is bad enough, but, needing one fast is torture...

Also, and this is something others might consider, I lash an extra 1.5 liter water bottle to my rucksack coming out of Carrion. There will be a lot of other pilgrims who "did not get the memo" about sketchy groundwater supplies. There is at least 30 km with nil potable water from Carrion.

I use the extra bottled water to help out others along the way. Consider doing this on the Meseta. It is never wasted, and may help another pilgrim avoid heat stroke or dehydration.

Hope this helps.

 

[Vanozza]

Vanozza: Sorry to hear about your sickness. Unpasteurized milk is always risky for those of us whose stomachs are not accustomed to the additional bacteria. However, if the milk was heated to the correct temperature for enough time, it may have been something else. In the past I have read and kept a note to ONLY DRINK BOTTLED WATER FROM HORNILLOS DEL CAMINO TO CARRION DE LOS CONDES TO MORATINOS. May or may not be necessary, but better safe than sorry.

I agree. I always pay for bottled water in Spain. My friend Luis from Madrid does not recommend that foreigners drink their water even though it’s processed.
It is impossible to know exactly which food was contaminated but when I did a mental inventory of everything that I ate for breakfast that morning, the thought of only one item made me want to hurl. I know that technique is not very scientific, but it’s been used for centuries!

 

[Hiawatha]

''Seeing the cow being milked'' is no insurance against illness or disease either . Brucellosis or Undulant fever also historically named Malta fever is contracted from unpasturised milk from infected goats and cows , a dreadfully painful affliction with long lasting symptoms guaranteed to bring anyone's Camino to a halt.

 

[Vanozza]

Maybe you were lactose intolerant. Can happen anytime. How fresh? Cow to you. That's how I like it, and I only order if that is possible. I'm sorry. You help me watch myself. In Pakistan unpasteurized milk gives people fatty tumors, not dangerous, lumpy, scary. I don't know how much or often one has to drink it??

I have never been lactose intolerant, but the doctor in the clinic was talking about that incessantly. I did not follow the discussion very well in my near-death state and my intermediate level Spanish.
That’s another matter: try to lean some Spanish before heading to Spain. When people day they speak English, they usually do not.

 

[david1]

I use a water bottle with a replaceable filter attached.
Filters everything. I regularly filled it up with pond and river water through France and more recently in Spain with no problems.
There are only a few that filter viruses, but they're out there. Mine cost me €30 for the 750ml bottle, and €7-10 for the filters. Lasts for two months or 200 litres...

 

[Meggins]

Walked through there 3 times and ate.and drañk everything
I never got sick on the Caminos It remains one of my favorite towns I took food down to the river at the back and had a lovely picnic
So sorry your experience was so different.

 

[dougfitz]

''Seeing the cow being milked'' is no insurance against illness or disease either . Brucellosis or Undulant fever also historically named Malta fever is contracted from unpasturised milk from infected goats and cows , a dreadfully painful affliction with long lasting symptoms guaranteed to bring anyone's Camino to a halt.

This is true, but I am skeptical about there being raw milk served in the first place. I had understood that outside of Catalonia, all milk has to be pasteurized. Maybe there is someone with a better understanding of this matter who can advise on this.

 

[dougfitz]

Walked through there 3 times and ate.and drañk everything
I never got sick on the Caminos It remains one of my favorite towns I took food down to the river at the back and had a lovely picnic
So sorry your experience was so different.

That is my experience as well, but the fact that some of us have avoided becoming unwell does not prove there is no problem.

Unfortunately, it would require a pretty detailed analysis of where and what we ate and drank compared to those who became unwell to start to isolate potential sources. None of individually can do that, which makes suggesting that the cause lies in something particular mere speculation. Or, as @falcon269 observed earlier, we are at risk of falling into a post hoc fallacy.

 

[KinkyOne]

...
Also, and this is something others might consider, I lash an extra 1.5 liter water bottle to my rucksack coming out of Carrion. There will be a lot of other pilgrims who "did not get the memo" about sketchy groundwater supplies. There is at least 30 km with nil potable water from Carrion.
...

Completely off-topic but I have to correct you so we won't spread false information. The stretch without any fuente after Carrion you are mentioning is long ca.17km and in Calzadilla de la Cueza you can find a lot of potable water be it from fuente, tap in the bar or bottled from the store. In peak season roughly halfway in a shade of a few trees by the road there can even be a camper van with snacks and drinks.

 

[trecile]

I just read a post on a Camino FB group page from someone who thinks that they got sick from water near Carrión de los Condes.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

The thing about gastroenteritis is that it is hard to know when and how you ingested something tainted. Some germs show symptoms within an hour, others take a few days and a few take over a week to become symptomatic. This being said, I have noticed several (anecdotal) posts over the last couple of years from people getting sick in or shortly after Carrion de Los Condes. I'm also wondering if there is a water issue in that area.
(ps - does anybody else picture a buzzard/condor feeding on roadkill (dead animal) when they hear the name "Carrion de Los Condes"?)

Yes, but in my mind's eye they're picking over the carcass of a long departed plgrim.

 

[RumAndChupacabras]

@Vanozza, WOW, sorry to hear how badly you were affected! Thanks you for posting this info because it's the first I've read about water issues.

Never mind the water, that’s become ““common““ pilgrim knowledge...

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong (?) however, this is the first I'm reading about water issues so it's not 'common' pilgrim knowledge.

...There will be a lot of other pilgrims who "did not get the memo" about sketchy groundwater supplies....

Exactly. That includes me and all the other's!

 

[C clearly]

When people day they speak English, they usually do not.

That is a very negative way to say that their English was not good enough to be of adequate service to you.. It usually means that they speak/understand a little or a lot, and are willing to try to speak it with you.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

It was hot enough for good cafe con leche caliente but it did not burn the lips.

Then it is unlikely to have caused food poisoning. Raw milk heated to 145 F /62.7 c will effectively 'pasteurize' the milk. It does not have to be held at that temperature indefinitely, so a lot of establishments will typically heat it to that temperature and then either hold it at a lower temp, or store it refrigerated to serve later.

When working for public health, it was required for local food establishments that used raw milk to do that very thing.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I have lived for almost 13 years in the area described. I drink the water, I eat the food, I walk the trail. I am not sick, most of the time.
Water is tested, kitchens are inspected, thousands of pilgrims pass through without any ill effects. But some people get sick, and get on the internet, and find romantic tales from years past of "bad water on the Meseta." It is so much more dramatic than "gastro germs spread among travelers living in crowded conditions." They buy into the myth, and it lives on.
If the water was bad, we ALL would be ill.
The water is fine. IMHO, if there is a "locus of infection," it's a lot more likely to be an albergue bathroom somewhere up the trail.
I find it tiresome, hearing this slander every year.
(BTW, it is illegal in Spain to sell or serve raw milk in any commercial establishment.)

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I was feeling bad within a couple of hours but did not start vomiting for another 7 hours. Then the diarrhea started a few hours after that. The hotel proprietors took me to a clinic where I got hooked up to an IV drip. I spent the next day or so rehydrating and trying to eat so that I could take the train from Leon to Bilbao and then back home.

Based on my work with public health, I doubt that the milk was the source of the pathogen that caused your illness. The time frame at which you became symptomatic is short for most pathogens that cause food poisoning.

Staphylococcus aureus can act within about 30 minutes in some people exposed to a high enough level of the bacteria, but that isn't one of the pathogens associated with raw milk related illnesses. However, it IS a good possibility that whoever was handling your food had staph and passed it on. . . if that was the origin.

However, there is a wide time frame under which foodborne pathogens began to cause symptoms. Depending on the organism, that time frame can be days to weeks. So is this related to staph or something else?

Something that frequently is blamed as food poisoning, but is frequently spread via contact with environmental surfaces, as well as food, is Norovirus. You see outbreaks of norovirus in situations where groups of people congregate, and is frequently the cause of GI crises and upset in places where tourists gather, like cruise ships and resorts, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if the reason for large numbers of pilgrims contracting GI upsets would be from the sharing of quarters in alburgues with others carrying norovirus.

 

[t2andreo]

I have lived for almost 13 years in the area described. I drink the water, I eat the food, I walk the trail. I am not sick, most of the time.
Water is tested, kitchens are inspected, thousands of pilgrims pass through without any ill effects. But some people get sick, and get on the internet, and find romantic tales from years past of "bad water on the Meseta." It is so much more dramatic than "gastro germs spread among travelers living in crowded conditions." They buy into the myth, and it lives on.
If the water was bad, we ALL would be ill.
The water is fine. IMHO, if there is a "locus of infection," it's a lot more likely to be an albergue bathroom somewhere up the trail.
I find it tiresome, hearing this slander every year.
(BTW, it is illegal in Spain to sell or serve raw milk in any commercial establishment.)

Rebekah is absolutely correct, insofar as public water supplies go. I differentiated that in my post.

While there are many reasons one can get 'jelly belly,' the locus and repeat frequency suggests the shallow groundwater wells or fuentes as a possible source. But, absent that, it is not the water that comes out of the tap.

This said, I tend to agree with Davebugg about a nonovirus being a likely culprit...

Hope this helps clarify.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I have lived for almost 13 years in the area described. I drink the water, I eat the food, I walk the trail. I am not sick, most of the time.
Water is tested, kitchens are inspected, thousands of pilgrims pass through without any ill effects. But some people get sick, and get on the internet, and find romantic tales from years past of "bad water on the Meseta." It is so much more dramatic than "gastro germs spread among travelers living in crowded conditions." They buy into the myth, and it lives on.
If the water was bad, we ALL would be ill.
The water is fine. IMHO, if there is a "locus of infection," it's a lot more likely to be an albergue bathroom somewhere up the trail.
I find it tiresome, hearing this slander every year.
(BTW, it is illegal in Spain to sell or serve raw milk in any commercial establishment.)

Rebekah is quite correct in her observations and probable assessment of the 'bad water' claims. I saw it all the time from complaints being registered with our Environmental Health department at Chelan-Douglas Health District.

Our area receives lots of tourists. Complaints of bad food from a restaurant, or water from a hotel, etc would be made, and then we'd start an investigation. Testing would be done of equipment, foods, water, and in some cases, even food handlers. Often we would find that the symptoms described, and when the consumption of food or water occurred, do not match the average timeline needed for the development of the onset of illness.

When a likely cause of the illness is diagnosed by the doctor or clinic providing the initial care, we then looked at the timeline of traveling, and do further tracking of potential illness at other locations where the tourist had been at or before their arrival in the Chelan or Douglas County area.

For example, if a tourist stated that on their drive from their home in Lakewood, WA that they stopped for lunch at a specific location, we would check with the local health district in that area to see if other cases of the illness had been reported. The same inquiry would be made to the Tacoma-Pierce County Health Department, which covers the home location where the tourist lives.

Tracking these types of illnesses is important to public health and safety. Like the U.S., Spain takes a much similar approach in the tracking of these types of reported outbreaks. And yes, if there is any treatment received, that is reported to public health.

The methodology and implementation of water supply monitoring, food services monitoring, sanitation,disease tracking, etc, is just as up to date and modern as North America and the rest of Europe. From my experience, I do not believe that Spanish public health authorities have simply ignored, or have been missing, the finding of any municipal water system -- or local source of public water or food -- to which claims of illness points its finger.

 

[Antomuchacho]

Virtual triage going on ☺ being raised on a farm we drank unpastuerised milk for years and didnt harm any of us!! I suspect its something else!! All mile out of the udders straight smells earthy and grassy!! Its natural!! Possible food or virus i think!! But hope you get better☺

 

[Kathor1]

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong (?) however, this is the first I'm reading about water issues so it's not 'common' pilgrim knowledge.

I had put two quotation marks around common and I said in the same sentence that I doubt that the reason or source will ever be found. I thought it was obvious from the way I put it, also in view of a number of other comments, that I am not convinced that there is something wrong with tap water in Spain and that includes the part of the Camino Frances that goes through the Meseta.

As to public fountains, I will only use water that is clearly marked as potable (safe to drink; drinkable). I remember at least one fountain in a village - perhaps Trabadelo? - where it said something like "this water is not controlled" or similar, I don't recall the exact words. In other places I've seen public fountains that are clearly marked as no potable (not safe to drink), either in words or picture.

 

[Kathor1]

It was available on the unattended breakfast buffet. It tasted very good but the earthy cow smell was the dead give-away. I put about 3-4 ounces into my coffee.

I'm not familiar with the legal situation in Spain but I would be extremely surprised if raw milk was offered at a breakfast buffet in a hotel and without being clearly marked as such.

Raw milk has somehow come into fashion again, it is regarded as extra healthy be some people, and I know that there are countries or regions (Catalonia?) in the EU where producers are allowed to commercially sell raw milk directly to the consumer. Raw milk is also used to produce some regional cheeses.

As I said, I love fresh milk but that's something else than raw milk. Where I live, it is marketed with a fat content of 3,5% but in Munich you can buy fresh milk with a fat content of 3,8% in supermarkets and boy can you taste the difference. My family ridiculed me because they thought that it is not possible but then we arranged for a small test and I drank various samples while blindfolded. I could taste the difference each time. So I wonder whether the milk tasted differently to what you expected but wasn't raw milk. In any case, I'm glad you've recovered.

I personally would probably be more suspicious of the many guest hands that had touched the handle of the milk jug than of the milk itself.

 

[dougfitz]

I find it tiresome, hearing this slander every year.

This was the subject of my very first post on this forum. I wanted to warn others about this restaurant. The moderators took exception to my "naming and shaming"

@Rebekah Scott's and @Margaret Butterworth's comments prompted me to go back to see what was said then. While we did get to a similar position where the unjustified blaming was addressed much more quickly, very similar points have been made. For those who want to understand why @Rebekah Scott and others amongst us find it a little tiresome to see this raised again, the thread in question is here.

BTW, @Margaret Butterworth, it wasn't a moderator that took exception to your 'naming and shaming', it was most people who realised it was a completely unsubstantiated famacide.

Added: I no doubt appear 'hard over' on this. Let me add that I am not questioning the sincerity of the OPs in wanting to alert us to what they see as a problem. However, speculation such as we have seen here is not only pointless, but also misleading and dangerous.

 

[Darby67]

Then it is unlikely to have caused food poisoning. Raw milk heated to 145 F /62.7 c will effectively 'pasteurize' the milk. It does not have to be held at that temperature indefinitely, so a lot of establishments will typically heat it to that temperature and then either hold it at a lower temp, or store it refrigerated to serve later.

When working for public health, it was required for local food establishments that used raw milk to do that very thing.

Not to get off track with your point but there are important time/temperature conditions for pasteurization. At ~145°F it would require about 30 minutes of sustained temperature contact time. Not all coffee/milk preparations or consumption habits would fulfill the conditions necessary.

The tap water is fine. If you prefer the flavor of bottled water that is fair but there is very little evidence to suggest that bottled water is any safer than municipal water systems. I suggest that more times than not we are in a 'hostile' and 'exposed' environment that most of us are not necessarily used to. Washing hands and keeping your own water system of choice food clean from ourselves and our surroundings is usually a much larger concern.

 

[WalkingJane]

''Seeing the cow being milked'' is no insurance against illness or disease either . Brucellosis or Undulant fever also historically named Malta fever is contracted from unpasturised milk from infected goats and cows , a dreadfully painful affliction with long lasting symptoms guaranteed to bring anyone's Camino to a halt.

Right. In Spain I use only UHT milk even though it can taste cardboardy. Why take chances?

 

[jmcarp]

My wife and I ate virtually the same menu and drank from the same water sources on both our Caminos in Spain and Portugal. I never had intestinal problems, but she had at least three episodes of what we used to call "Montezuma's revenge." I'm pretty sure that two of those episodes came after eating tuna empenada that had been left uncovered and sitting on a countertop for who knows how long (in different places separated by many miles). In both cases, only she was affected. I'm convinced that we all have different bacteria dwelling in our digestive tracts, probably based on what we consumed or didn't consume as children as our immune systems developed. Even here at home, she has more of a tendency to experience intestinal distress than I do.

As an interesting side note that illustrates differences in digestive immunity, many years ago I was on a spelunking expedition deep in the heart of the Sierra Madre mountains in Mexico, probably 50 miles away from the nearest major highway. We had driven many miles on unimproved dirt and gravel roads to a small village, where we left our vehicles and hired some of the villagers to pack our gear up the mountain on burros to the cave we were to explore. To make a long story short, one of the villagers was curious about the canned stew were eating for dinner, so we offered him a sample. Within a very short time he developed a bad case of diarrhea from our supposedly "safely processed" commercial food. It works both ways.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Not to get off track with your point but there are important time/temperature conditions for pasteurization. At ~145°F it would require about 30 minutes of sustained temperature contact time. Not all coffee/milk preparations or consumption habits would fulfill the conditions necessary.

I appreciate that you provided additional clarification. You are correct, and I neglected to add that point.

However, the heating guideline of 145 F for 30 minutes is the common requirement for using the product in food service, and is part of the HAACP (Hazard analysis and critical control points ) inspection process by local public health jurisdictions which is also universal to most of the EU, including Spain.

As I mentioned, once the raw milk has been brought to temp (and held to temp for a minimum of 30 minutes) it can then be stored for later use under refrigeration.

 

[Kathor1]

Right. In Spain I use only UHT milk even though it can taste cardboardy. Why take chances?

So did you ever see or have you ever been offered raw milk in Spain???

leche cruda - raw milk
leche fresca - fresh milk (pasteurized)
There are various types of pasteurized milk, homogenized or not, and whatnot and even a special type produced for the Spanish hospitality sector that tastes particularly creamy and is destined for cafe con leche ...

When I search Spanish news sources on Google News for leche cruda (raw milk), the articles that come up concern either the production of cheeses or the fact that Catalonia allowed the selling of raw milk to private consumers last year, after it had been prohibited for some 30 odd years and that the Spanish government is studying the question of extending this regulation to the whole of Spain. But apparently it hasn't done so.

One aspect of raw milk is the fact that it doesn't keep long. Why would hotels, bars and albergues even be interested in it???

 

[jimmyc]

Interesting that so many get sick around the Meseta. In 2015 I stayed with the Religiosas Filipenses in Carrion.Two days later I was violently ill between Bercianos del Real and Mansilla de las Mulas. I did not drink the water from fountains or milk. I think it was food poisoning but possibly not from Carrion. Probably from a restaurant in Terradilios.
I remember being half way between towns on the Meseta when it hit me. I had no option but to continue, throwing-up all along the path.

 

[trecile]

When I walked in 2017 lots of people were getting sick between O Cebreiro and Santiago. It seemed like a virus. When you are living in sleeping in close quarters it's easy for bugs like Norovirus to spread.

 

[C clearly]

I tend to have a cast iron stomach, too, and rarely have stomach upsets. However, I got violently ill one night on the Camino Frances, NOT on the meseta. My only guess was that it was some unusual mushrooms that were included among grilled veggies. I have never reacted to "regular" mushrooms but I'm aware that people's reactions vary a lot and even the growing conditions can matter. This is just an example of the unknowns that we can encounter.

 

[KinkyOne]

... I remember at least one fountain in a village - perhaps Trabadelo? - where it said something like "this water is not controlled" or similar, I don't recall the exact words. In other places I've seen public fountains that are clearly marked as no potable (not safe to drink), either in words or picture.

Maybe it was "agua no tratada"?
Which to my knowledge means it's potable but not treated as the tap water with chlorine etc.

Anyway, this thread turned waaaaaaaaaaaay off the possible cause of the sickness. We are more or less talking about the water but the OP suspected the milk is the cause. Funny bunch of people I must say

 

[Kathor1]

Maybe it was "agua no tratada"?

No, it was definitely something like "not checked" or "not under control“. We saw similar wording elsewhere. My guess is that it‘s mainly about nitrate content anyway. Which has become a problem in rural areas in Europe and elsewhere where there is intensive agriculture or cattle raising.

Water dispensed at public fountains has to be checked by laboratories at regular intervals during the year and it is declared safe to drink when bacterial and nitrate/nitrite content is below a fixed threshold. Tap water always meets the standards because the controls are done centrally and water from different sources are mixed if necessary.

 

[Kathor1]

Hmm ... well, I hate to post this because I fear overreactions. I googled nitratos and Castilla y Leon: Hornillos del Camino, Hontanas and Castrojeriz appear in a map that has been drawn up on the basis of data provided by the Junta de Castilla y Leon about the contaminación de las aguas por nitratos de origen agricola y ganadero. This is about groundwater and not about tap water. I know that a high content of nitrate in drinking water can be dangerous for babies. I don't know much about short-term effects on adult health.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The fountains used by pilgrims were newly posted this spring, at least in Castilla y Leon. There are other tanks and cisterns along the path that are for agricultural use only. If there´s no placard with a safety assurance, don´t drink it. If it says "Sin asegurada de sanidad" or something similar, that means it is NOT tested, but village people drink it anyway.... drink that and you´re rolling the dice. (CyL is trying to do away with these.)

 

[happymarkos]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.

I had bad diarrhoea last year in Carrion and because of other health issues ended up in hospital for the day. Lots of tests. Doctors said nothing seriously wrong just a seasonal virus that comes each year. It was October. Others became sick before or at Carrion. My wife started vomiting a day or so later. Many blamed water or food and the medical advice from the local doctors it wasn’t the cause.
Can’t fault the way the Spanish medical people looked after me. My shortcoming was not having my medical history with me. Since rectified on my recent VDLP camino
Happymark

 

[alhartman]

 

[Vanozza]

Walked through there 3 times and ate.and drañk everything
I never got sick on the Caminos It remains one of my favorite towns I took food down to the river at the back and had a lovely picnic
So sorry your experience was so different.

I love that town too. It’s so beautiful.
Although I have been to Spain six times I have never had any trouble with food until now. Part of the problem may be my advanced age (73). I just may not be up to the wear and tear of hiking every single day for hours in all kinds of weather. But until I drop in my tracks, I will keep showing up.

 

[dougfitz]

It is interesting the we (collectively) are avoiding a level of self reflection, and seem to be ignoring those who have suggested other explanations that don't blame the food and water.

We may not be able to tell what caused @Vanozza or anyone else's GI issues. What we have established, though, is that it is almost definitely not for the reason originally stated - raw milk. It is also extremely unlikely to have been tap water, and pretty unlikely to have been food served and consumed in a restaurant or bar.

So what is left? Quite simply, us and our observance or lack thereof of good food and personal hygiene practices.

• If you buy a bocadillo in the morning to eat for lunch, not doing something to sanitize your hands before you remove it from its wrapping puts you at increased risk.
• If you buy a salami from the cold section of a supermercado rather than find one hanging un-refrigerated from a rack in the deli, and leave it it your pack for a day or so, you are taking a greater risk.
• If you choose a soft cheese because they are just so yummy, and keep a bit for Ron, that is also going to be a greater risk than choosing one of the many, almost equally delicious, hard cheeses.
• Each time you go into a toilet, and only give your hands a cursory rinse, you are more likely to be carrying a pathogen, and the same is true when you don't wash your hands before you have any meal or handle food in a kitchen.

I see all of these practices both in day-to-day life and saw them regularly on the Camino. I took some of these risks myself, And I knew that if I did have an upset stomach or loose bowel, I needed to be more careful. I was far more likely to be the cause of my own problems than anything else.

As for collecting and consuming ground water without any treatment, I once would have thought that no reasonable person would have ever contemplated that. If you are inclined to heed the advice of those who say you only need to carry a couple of 500ml bottles, consider carrying one of the readily available water treatment tablets. A slide of 25 Micropur Forte tablets can treat 25 litres of water, and in a small ziploc bag weighs less than 10 g. In 30 minutes, you will have water treated for bacteria and viruses (but not giardia, which requires two hours of contact for treatment).

 

[Hiawatha]

Perhaps the water at the Parador in Santiago was ' Non Potable ' , for it was there that I experienced my only bought of the ' colliwobbles ' for the entire Camino .
Whether food ,water or poor personal hygiene it is very difficult to determine the cause without direct testing for pathogens . Certainly cattle are a primary source of Giardia contamination in water supplies , the symptoms in humans are notable in that any fecal discharge will foam .
There are a number of scholarly articles describing the differences in stools affected by various ' food ' poisonings . It is well worth familiarising yourself with them , an indication of just what you might be suffering from can help decide the extent of the action you take to remedy it , really important if the difference is a matter of a day's rest or a trip to an emergency ward.

 

[Margaret Butterworth]

Apologies if I set the cat among the pigeons again. My intentions were good! I’ll be in Carrion tomorrow, so the Fates will strike me down with the lurgy as punishment, or not...

 

[Telboyo]

You do realise that bottled mineral water has a lower standard than municipal water? According to the EU water directive anywhere that supplies more than 10m³ or more than 50 people per day, that is 10,000 litres or Approx 2500 US gallons per day has to meet the standard and be tested on a regular basis. Unless the fountain says untreated or non potable you should be ok. I suspect the cause of bad guys is a combination of fatigue, poor hygiene and eating food that had not been refrigerated but left in a rucksac in the blazing sun.

Drinking water

Improving access to drinking water for all

ec.europa.eu

 

[Kathor1]

You do realise that bottled mineral water has a lower standard than municipal water? According to the EU water directive ...

I think this is a misunderstanding. While the EU drinking water directive does not cover bottled mineral water, it doesn't mean it is not controlled. Quite the contrary. The bottled water industry is one of the most controlled sectors in the food and drink business. Also, in contrast to the UK and the US for example, around 80% of bottled water in the EU is natural mineral water, not spring waters or bottled drinking water.

And not everything is so terribly rosy as far as very small villages pumping water for their own supply and getting rid of their waste water is concerned. But let's not go any further into this ... I myself am not worried. I drink mainly zumo de naranja - natural? si! - and mineral water but that's because I like the taste, not because I fear contamination of any kind. And I do carry a small bottle of antibacterial hand gel with me and use it.

 

[jdpiguet]

The best prevention is still to wash regularly your hands and be sure to always do it before eating...
Our 10 fingers ARE the place from where most of the various ' food poisonings' are coming into our bodies.
Buen (washed) Camino,
Jacques-D.

 

[camino.ninja]

I don't know how long this warning appears in the guide books. Maybe only 10 years, maybe 20?
Why it has to be repeated again and again and again ...
You can also find that warning for the first 2/3 of Via de la Plata and other arid zones in Spain.

The water from the tap is controlled, purifified (with UV light) and chlorified all over Spain! For that reason it does not have any bacteria and tastes bad. In the meseta it may contain more fertilizer, nickel, lead, ..., than usual, but it is still good enough for humans. People with reduced health defence (from heat, sun-burn, bad sleep, different food) may already show an reaction, but you'll never really know the origin.

If people drink water from the few fountains there is always more risk. In Galicia you will find warnings if the water is "not controlled", but in other places I saw only "no potable" for probably very bad water and mostly no sign at all.

Summary: If you feel uncomfortable with tap water buy your liquids or take a filter with you. With the latter you can drink from any pond or puddle.

Well I guess half of the pilgrims are weak then.

 

[camino.ninja]

I don't know how long this warning appears in the guide books. Maybe only 10 years, maybe 20?
Why it has to be repeated again and again and again ...
You can also find that warning for the first 2/3 of Via de la Plata and other arid zones in Spain.

The water from the tap is controlled, purifified (with UV light) and chlorified all over Spain! For that reason it does not have any bacteria and tastes bad. In the meseta it may contain more fertilizer, nickel, lead, ..., than usual, but it is still good enough for humans. People with reduced health defence (from heat, sun-burn, bad sleep, different food) may already show an reaction, but you'll never really know the origin.

If people drink water from the few fountains there is always more risk. In Galicia you will find warnings if the water is "not controlled", but in other places I saw only "no potable" for probably very bad water and mostly no sign at all.

Summary: If you feel uncomfortable with tap water buy your liquids or take a filter with you. With the latter you can drink from any pond or puddle.

Filters do not filter out pesticides and other chemicals

 

[Vanozza]

It is interesting the we (collectively) are avoiding a level of self reflection, and seem to be ignoring those who have suggested other explanations that don't blame the food and water.

We may not be able to tell what caused @Vanozza or anyone else's GI issues. What we have established, though, is that it is almost definitely not for the reason originally stated - raw milk. It is also extremely unlikely to have been tap water, and pretty unlikely to have been food served and consumed in a restaurant or bar.

So what is left? Quite simply, us and our observance or lack thereof of good food and personal hygiene practices.

• If you buy a bocadillo in the morning to eat for lunch, not doing something to sanitize your hands before you remove it from its wrapping puts you at increased risk.
• If you buy a salami from the cold section of a supermercado rather than find one hanging un-refrigerated from a rack in the deli, and leave it it your pack for a day or so, you are taking a greater risk.
• If you choose a soft cheese because they are just so yummy, and keep a bit for Ron, that is also going to be a greater risk than choosing one of the many, almost equally delicious, hard cheeses.
• Each time you go into a toilet, and only give your hands a cursory rinse, you are more likely to be carrying a pathogen, and the same is true when you don't wash your hands before you have any meal or handle food in a kitchen.

I see all of these practices both in day-to-day life and saw them regularly on the Camino. I took some of these risks myself, And I knew that if I did have an upset stomach or loose bowel, I needed to be more careful. I was far more likely to be the cause of my own problems than anything else.

As for collecting and consuming ground water without any treatment, I once would have thought that no reasonable person would have ever contemplated that. If you are inclined to heed the advice of those who say you only need to carry a couple of 500ml bottles, consider carrying one of the readily available water treatment tablets. A slide of 25 Micropur Forte tablets can treat 25 litres of water, and in a small ziploc bag weighs less than 10 g. In 30 minutes, you will have water treated for bacteria and viruses (but not giardia, which requires two hours of contact for treatment).

Just curious: how did you arrive at this almost definite conclusion: “it is almost definitely not ... raw milk”.

 

[dougfitz]

Just curious: how did you arrive at this almost definite conclusion: “it is almost definitely not ... raw milk”.

Outside of Catalonia, all milk is pasteurized by law. This was confirmed by @Rebekah Scott in an response earlier in this thread.

 

[dougfitz]

Filters do not filter out pesticides and other chemicals

Wouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide. Most people don't seem to appreciate the dangers of this chemical compound to our daily lives. And it is in all our water. See https://www.dhmo.org/facts.html for why we should be working on this more urgently.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Wouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide. Most people don't seem to appreciate the dangers of this chemical compound to our daily lives. And it is in all our water. See https://www.dhmo.org/facts.html for why we should be working on this more urgently.

ROTFLOL!!! Quit trying to push yer poison on us, Doug.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Just curious: how did you arrive at this almost definite conclusion: “it is almost definitely not ... raw milk”.

One reason for the conclusion is that if it was actually raw milk that was consumed, it was likely properly heated prior to use. The other reason is mentioned by both Rebekah Scott and dougfitz in the thread above.

 

[jmcarp]

Wouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide. Most people don't seem to appreciate the dangers of this chemical compound to our daily lives. And it is in all our water. See https://www.dhmo.org/facts.html for why we should be working on this more urgently.

If we did that, there would be nothing left except those microscopic squigglies that cause us to barf and poop uncontrollably as we toil across the endless, boring meseta

 

[C clearly]

Wouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide.

Oh but they can! Another use for the dry bags.

 

[Moorwalker]

Where did you get unpasteurized milk?

To me, being careful would include not drinking unpasteurized milk at all unless, maybe, if I saw the cow being milked on the spot.

I wouldn't drink unpasteurised milk even then, you can't tell by loking at the cow whether it is carrying TB, brucellosis or several other very nasty diseases. Even the herds in the UK which are very carefully kept and inspected so that they can sell unpasteurized milk occasionally test positive for various things. To me it's not worth the risk.

Unpasteurized hard cheese is not a problem because the aciditiy and the bacteria that turn it into cheese also suppress most of the unwanted bacteria.

 

[VNwalking]

Wouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide.

A metal plate should do it. Though the size needs to accurate, they are easy to find pretty much everywhere - called in everyday English a 'cap.'

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Unpasteurized hard cheese is not a problem because the aciditiy and the bacteria that turn it into cheese also suppress most of the unwanted bacteria.

That is decidedly not the case as stated. Although it does not occur with a high frequency, any product made from raw (unpasteurized) milk - be it cheese or ice cream or yogurt - can also be contaminated with harmful pathogens including Brucella, Campylobacter, Cryptosporidium, E. coli, Listeria, and Salmonella.

In the cases that I had been involved with at our public health district, Listeria was the most problematic.

Now, there is evidence that hard cheeses made from raw milk are generally safe after 60 days because, as you stated, the acids and salts in raw milk cheese are thought to naturally prevent the growth of potentially harmful pathogens. However, there is evidence that - - as with honey and botulism - - very young children may still be susceptible to illness from such cheese.

Softer cheeses, and those cheeses which do not have a prolonged ripening period, can still put one at risk.

 

[dougfitz]

Unpasteurized hard cheese is not a problem because the aciditiy and the bacteria that turn it into cheese also suppress most of the unwanted bacteria.

Aging and maintaining the right salinity and acidity can reduce the risk apparently, but don't eliminate it completely.

 

[Hiawatha]

Don't laugh , di- hydrogen monoxide kills many thousands of people worldwide each year.

 

[jmcarp]

Don't laugh , di- hydrogen monoxide kills many thousands of people worldwide each year.

Mostly by drowning. But one would look seriously ridiculous if they walked the Camino wearing a PFD.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I remember at least one fountain in a village - perhaps Trabadelo? - where it said something like "this water is not controlled" or similar, I don't recall the exact words.

Trabadelo. "Not guaranteed". Peg and I just came down from the Pradelo (?) route and she was ahead of me and drank about half a liter by the time I got to the fountain. "This water is great. Want some?" "No" I said as I poured the water out and pointed to the sign. Peg got really worried as she had earlier gotten very sick near Carrion. A local woman came up with bottles that she filled at the fountain and told us the water was fine. If towns put up similar signs on the fountains they can get away with paying for periodic water testing.

 

[AlmostAnastasia]

Are you sure about the source of your food poisoning? We walked last September-October and a very large number of pilgrims (including me) became very ill in or around that area. There were many different theories about what had caused this. A lot of people believed that the water in the area was bad and those who had consistently drunk bottled water has escaped the problems. Hope you are well now.

There was a flu going around at that time. Both my friend and I (and room mates and many others) had a 24 hour flu. It pays to be careful about what you eat and drink. Not everyone has been reading these postings for a while, so I do think it is fair to warn people. Fore warned is fore armed. There is nothing fun about being ill while walking the Camino. Nothing. Thanks for letting folks know.

 

[Bob from L.A. !]

Forget the milk, just drink the beer !

 

[Marcus-UK]

Or vino tinto....

I think a french bloke called Pasteur was advised that wine was the safest drink.

 

[Marcus-UK]

Correction - I think a french bloke called Pasteur once advised that wine was the safest drink.

and this was before the bottle of Albarino I am having with Moules tonight:-}

 

[4 Eyes]

I got my food poisoning one stop after Carrion at Fromista, so did another pilgrim who ate at the same restaurant. I found tap water safe to drink everywhere in Spain.

 

[John Crawford Howell]

The thing about gastroenteritis is that it is hard to know when and how you ingested something tainted. Some germs show symptoms within an hour, others take a few days and a few take over a week to become symptomatic. This being said, I have noticed several (anecdotal) posts over the last couple of years from people getting sick in or shortly after Carrion de Los Condes. I'm also wondering if there is a water issue in that area.
(ps - does anybody else picture a buzzard/condor feeding on roadkill (dead animal) when they hear the name "Carrion de Los Condes"?)

It's why many of us hiking the trail in 2017 referred to it as "Vulture Town." In the same way we referred to Zariquiegui (before Alto del Perdón) as, simply, "Z Town." All seemed to understood what was being referenced.

 

[MoniRose]

On my first camino, I was very sick indeed after eating trout at a restaurant in Carrion. This was the subject of my very first post on this forum. I wanted to warn others about this restaurant. The moderators took exception to my "naming and shaming". Over the five or so years since then, I have heard of many such gastro incidents in the area of Carrion and Terradillos. Perhaps it doesn't originate in one particular restaurant, but there is obviously something dodgy about the water in this area. I will be there again in a week's time and intend to be very careful what I eat and to drink only bottled water.

Weird. I got sick on the Camino too! Two days after leaving Carrion. I didn’t want to believe it because my stay there was absolutely blessed, but right before I left I purchased a little loaf of bread with a sausage inside at the bakery across from the park next to the church of Santa Maria. Two days later I was vomiting in the backyard of an albergue. I blamed the meal at the albergue, but now I’m wondering if my gut (no pun intended) was right and it really was the sausage.
-Moni

 

[Bogong]

That is my experience as well, but the fact that some of us have avoided becoming unwell does not prove there is no problem.

Unfortunately, it would require a pretty detailed analysis of where and what we ate and drank compared to those who became unwell to start to isolate potential sources. None of individually can do that, which makes suggesting that the cause lies in something particular mere speculation. Or, as @falcon269 observed earlier, we are at risk of falling into a post hoc fallacy.

Absolutely, Doug,I could find nothing but UHT milk when I walked and having had an involvement in food safety control issues in a previous life, the causal effects of such illnesses really need a lot more work. However I’m a bit disturbed at the faith some people put it bottled water. There has been quite extensive testing here at least and I understand elsewhere showing that bottled waters in many cases simply don’t meet the standards healthwise of tap water, and are often not “free” of the various contaminants people are concerned about. In a recent case, the only product which complied with health standards was Fiji water, which was also the most expensive and tested exactly thecsame as tap water so one could speculate on its source!
De Colores

Bogong

 

[Kathor1]

In a recent case, the only product which complied with health standards was Fiji water, which was also the most expensive and tested exactly the same as tap water so one could speculate on its source!

Does this refer to the Spanish/EU market or to other markets? I've seen Fiji water in the United States and perhaps in a fancy restaurant here in Europe once or twice but have never noticed it in supermarkets and certainly not in Spain.

I see that 95% of the bottled water sold in Spain is natural mineral water - that's definitely different from tap water. The other 5% is spring water and treated water which is similar to tap water.

Interesting figures that are floating around the net: Spain ranks fourth in the EU in terms of production of mineral water, behind Germany, Italy and France, and third in consumption per capita, after Italy and Germany. About 60% of people in Spain prefer bottled mineral water because they don't like the taste of their tap water (there's nothing wrong with their tap water as such).

And the claim (where I don't know whether it's true or not) that "Europe has one of the world's most effective and strict legal frameworks which ensures that naturally sourced waters reach consumers in their original state."

 

[John Crawford Howell]

I rarely consumed bottled water on the Frances. I filled up from Albergue taps, Hostal taps, town fountains, fountains on the edge of towns, and was almost seduced by a particularly attractive cattle trough with cold water streaming into it high on the slopes leading to O'Cebreiro. In "Vulture Town" I drank the water, enjoyed the beer, and wrote to wine. For 45 days, no issues.

 

[Bogong]

Does this refer to the Spanish/EU market or to other markets? I've seen Fiji water in the United States and perhaps in a fancy restaurant here in Europe once or twice but have never noticed it in supermarkets and certainly not in Spain.

I see that 95% of the bottled water sold in Spain is natural mineral water - that's definitely different from tap water. The other 5% is spring water and treated water which is similar to tap water.

Interesting figures that are floating around the net: Spain ranks fourth in the EU in terms of production of mineral water, behind Germany, Italy and France, and third in consumption per capita, after Italy and Germany. About 60% of people in Spain prefer bottled mineral water because they don't like the taste of their tap water (there's nothing wrong with their tap water as such).

And the claim (where I don't know whether it's true or not) that "Europe has one of the world's most effective and strict legal frameworks which ensures that naturally sourced waters reach consumers in their original state."

The problem is with natural mineral waters/untreated spring waters and “in their natural state” is a possible cause for concern. Frequently they are promoted as “free” from various contaminants which are nonetheless present as trace elements or even in some cases at levels well above those permitted in town water supplies.

De Colores
Bogong

 

[Vsic]

I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.

 

[Vsic]

Washing your hands is good way of minimising some gastro incidents, i notice a lot of men don’t wash their hands after going to the bathroom, i use hand sanitiser on my Camino, and a life straw go filter bottle, seems to work for me..