Europe's iconic churches struggle to accommodate worship and tourism

[Globetrottingpilgrim2010]

This seems to be a common dilemma across the world these days, made more apparent with the surge in global tourism. I’ve attached this article as it specifically mentions the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela. (I’ve been to Pilgrim’s Mass on several occasions and have witnessed firsthand pilgrims/tourists ignoring requests to stop talking and taking photos - which was blatantly ignored as soon as the Botofumiero was lifted). I’d be curious to hear what ideas people have to address this problem.

Flooded with sightseers, Europe's iconic churches struggle to accommodate both worship and tourism

With tourism booming in southern Europe, iconic sacred sites struggle to find ways to accommodate both the faithful who come to pray and secular visitors.

apnews.com

 

[thejoker]

It's an interesting one. I'm sure most of us have been 'tourists" at religious sites and festivals around the world at some point. I've visited temples and watched religious services out of curiosity, and while having no belief at all in those particular faiths. With such a spectacle as the Botafumeiro, it's hardly surprising tourists are attracted.

What are your thoughts as to changes you'd like to see made or are you happy with the way things are and merely laying the current situation out?

 

[Tincatinker]

Snipers? Close down the internet? Start educating children rather than just train them to pass exams?

I do not believe that the reality justifies the headline. The places are not under threat. Indeed half of them would probably have fallen down by now without the tourist £/$/€. What is under threat, perhaps, is the opportunity for peaceful worship and quiet contemplation. The simple solution to that is to close premises to non-worshippers during Mass, Communion, Jumʿah, Sema, Shacharit Shabbat, or, for my lot, whenever we make smoke and spill wine. None of these are spectator events...

 

[Globetrottingpilgrim2010]

Yes. It’s a twofold thread. One, to ‘put it out there,’ and two to see what ideas would be put forth. Personally, I’d like to be able to accommodate both tourists and religious worshippers. My thoughts lean towards separate visiting times (ie: I’ve been to mosques that are explicitly closed to non-worshippers at certain times of the day). Perhaps, depending on the popularity of the house of worship, necessitating pre-purchased tickets/entrance times and limiting the daily number of visitors (as some places have already done).

 

[Bradypus]

Snipers? Close down the internet? Start educating children rather than just train them to pass exams?

I qualified as an RE teacher but couldn't face the uphill struggle of getting the majority of my teaching colleagues to value the subject, let alone my students. The lack of knowledge of religion in its many forms in so many people is depressing to me. The lack of respect shown in so many places of worship is at least in part a result of that ignorance.

 

[Caomhin O Fearghaill]

This seems to be a common dilemma across the world these days, made more apparent with the surge in global tourism. I’ve attached this article as it specifically mentions the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela. (I’ve been to Pilgrim’s Mass on several occasions and have witnessed firsthand pilgrims/tourists ignoring requests to stop talking and taking photos - which was blatantly ignored as soon as the Botofumiero was lifted). I’d be curious to hear what ideas people have to address this problem.

Flooded with sightseers, Europe's iconic churches struggle to accommodate both worship and tourism

With tourism booming in southern Europe, iconic sacred sites struggle to find ways to accommodate both the faithful who come to pray and secular visitors.

apnews.com

It is difficult to combat disrespect in places of worship unless the local rules are made to be enforced. I witnessed an incident at Christian service in Paris. People were asked not to take photos during the service. The person in front of me decided to disregard the request and was tapped on the shoulder and asked to leave. Disrespectful should be challenged always.

 

[Corned Beef]

Go direct rather than use a church. I am sure God would be OK with it.

 

[Tincatinker]

My Old Guys certainly don't like intercessants. If I'm not prepared to make my own sacrifices any offered on my behalf don't count. No delegation my side of the veil

 

[David Tallan]

When I first read the headline, I thought of all of the little churches I passed by on my Camino which I think rarely see services, as the population in the villages dwindles and the new generation doesn't attend quite as regularly as their grandparents did. It seems to me they are the houses of worship under greatest threat.

Reading the article, I am minded of some fellow pilgrims who, in Lugo, decided they would come back to the cathedral at mass time when entrance was free to see it, rather than pay the fee to enter at other times. I pointed out that they probably weren't supposed to play tourist during mass. Myself, I paid the reduced pilgrim price and got the portable audio guide to visit the cathedral when services were not in progress.

You might say that tourists or pilgrims are a threat to houses of worship, or equally that they are a source of revenue that allows them to be maintained and supported into the future, necessary if they are to continue their primary role.

 

[grayland]

The disruption and disrespect by tourists and others at the Pilgrim Mass in Santiago is not new.

I have observed it from 2009 and it continues today. From bus loads of tourists with camino scarfs around their necks talking and pushing to loud conversations during the blessing of the Eucharist mid Mass.

 

[WalkingInGers]

I qualified as an RE teacher but couldn't face the uphill struggle of getting the majority of my teaching colleagues to value the subject, let alone my students. The lack of knowledge of religion in its many forms in so many people is depressing to me. The lack of respect shown in so many places of worship is at least in part a result of that ignorance.

I do not understand what you mean by « the lack of knowledge of religion ». Do you mean that each person should understand the fundamentals of each religion , or, ?

 

[CWBuff]

The simple solution to that is to close premises to non-worshippers during Mass, Communion, Jumʿah, Sema, Shacharit Shabbat, or, for my lot, whenever we make smoke and spill wine. None of these are spectator events...

Can completely argue with that but given the Human nature probably wont work (esp with today's "Entitlement" culture.... )
The Middle portion of La Sagrada is "reserved for the worshipers"; but IIRC even if you are sitting there you can still hear the buzz around you. I believe I sufferer the same in St. Paul's in London but Westminster Cathedral pretty much kicked everyone out who was not going to participate in Midday Mass (no idea how they did it).

When my wife and I attended Pilgrim's Mass in SdC - my first instinct was to try and secure a seat along the isle where Botafumeiro flies. The dearest gave me a deadpan look and said - "Dont forget what you are here for and what you walked for!" We sat facing the Altar....
... my phone still came out when the Bota flew! I was on the edge of the central isle and simply stuck my hand with it there - not raising it high over my head and thus not obstructing anyone's view.
Does it make it any "better"? "acceptable"? "proper"?.... not sure...probably not... but I was not passing up the chance to keep it for the memories...
Perhaps on my return I shall refrain!

 

[Bradypus]

Do you mean that each person should understand the fundamentals of each religion , or, ?

That would be ideal but it is an unrealistic expectation given the huge diversity of religious belief and practice. Instead I would hope that people would make the effort to learn some of the most significant elements of the religious traditions which they are most likely to encounter at home and in their travels. Especially when they choose to travel a route with an explicitly Christian origin and focus. An example - a fairly rudimentary understanding of what a sacrament is within Catholicism might help to reduce the irreverent behaviour seen around the pilgrim mass. You do not have to share another's beliefs personally or have in-depth knowledge of another's faith to understand something of their significance and so accord them due respect. But I think it will test the forbearance of the moderators to go much further along this line of conversation given the forum rule on religious topics.

 

[Tincatinker]

I do not understand what you mean by « the lack of knowledge of religion ». Do you mean that each person should understand the fundamentals of each religion , or, ?

For me, yes, oh yes. If you do not understand the beliefs of another how can you ever understand them. I’ll risk this here, I’m aware of this forum’s rules. My faith is based in the entirety of nature- the fundamentals of earth, water, air, light are why we are here and they are everything in everywhere. The mother and the father and the change makers are all that there is and all that there is is them.

Others like to attribute that wholeness to someone or something beyond themselves. That’s cool in my world. Hanging on to what makes you happy is perhaps the most sensible thing any of us ever manages.

To come back to your question, which wasn’t addressed to me but I’m an interruptive, yes, an understanding, or at least some knowledge, of the fundamentals of any religion ought, IMO, be the starting point for any pilgrim on any road.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I do not believe that the reality justifies the headline. The places are not under threat.

I disagree. Peg's hometown in 1900 had four Roman Catholic churches. They have since lost about a quarter of the population but three of the four parishes.

 

[lalaone]

Having just returned from vacation in Quebec, Montreal’s Notre-Dame Basilica had an interesting approach. Paid tickets were required. Mass times were for worshippers only. Even these measures did not curtail ubiquitous bad behavior – crowds of selfie-takers in front of the altar – but there was a separate, special chapel for prayer and devotion.

Finally, the Basilica made a special outreach to tourists in the form of an evening light show. The tickets were pricey. I was not able to attend (sold out). It seemed tasteful, reverent, and historically informative, while also supporting the church’s presence and mission. The creators have done something similar at La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona. I doubt that such dual-track experiences can relieve ALL tourist pressure on great churches, especially Santiago, but to me it seemed like a creative and respectful idea.

The AURA Experience at The Notre-Dame Basilica of Montreal

The AURA Experience immerses you in a captivating visual and musical universe, presented upon one of the most sublime canvases imaginable.

www.aurabasiliquemontreal.com

A light show transforms Montreal’s Basilica of Notre-Dame and shows the beauty of Catholicism to a secular audience

Cathedrals and basilicas have become a part of urban culture and are fertile ground for creatively sharing the faith, as seen in Montreal’s Basilica of Notre-Dame.

www.americamagazine.org

 

[Tincatinker]

I disagree. Peg's hometown in 1900 had four Roman Catholic churches. They have since lost about a quarter of the population but three of the four parishes.

My notion was that the physical places, those referenced by the article, are not under threat. Those stones will long outlast their treasured bones. The long recorded reduction in congregation of the faithful has no apparent association with the migration of church from the absolute centre of civil life to its current position as, at best, peripheral. Hatch, Match & Dispatch and, of course, the Christmas Carol Concert.

There are those who appear to believe that Stonehenge has something to do with Druids or even my lot. Bollocks of course but that doesn’t matter much to anyone that’s bought their £14 access ticket

 

[Bradypus]

Reading through the thread again my mind kept turning to a well known poem by Philip Larkin on residual religiosity! The notion that something still gnaws at the spiritual side of human beings even when its formal expressions are almost forgotten or disavowed.

The Poetry Hour

www.thepoetryhour.com

 

[CWBuff]

@Tincatinker - You have a lot at Stonehenge?

 

[JabbaPapa]

The places are not under threat.

Churches across Western Europe and elsewhere suffer from a variety of threats and are not infrequently attacked, sadly.

 

[Pathfinder075]

(I’ve been to Pilgrim’s Mass on several occasions and have witnessed firsthand pilgrims/tourists ignoring requests to stop talking and taking photos - which was blatantly ignored as soon as the Botofumiero was lifted). I’d be curious to hear what ideas people have to address this problem.

Beat them with a big stick? From what i hear that is the solution in most parts of the world and it apparently works.

Unfortunately dragging them off to an inquisition is no longer possible, nor probably wise.

But on a more serious note, have security guards eject them. It will only happen a few times and word will spread and people will stop doing it. Enforce respect for those that are unable to show any.

Or stop swinging the Botofumeiro except on feast days.

 

[C clearly]

This thread started with an article focused on how houses of worship can manage the needs of both worshippers and the the multitude of tourists/visitors. The original title of this thread was "Houses of Worship are Under Threat." I don't even see the word "threat" in the article, and it seems to raise other issues that could get into discussions of religion that are not allowed on the forum.

I will change the thread title to reflect the actual article. Forum members should limit their discussions to the topic of worshippers and tourists.

 

[MichaelNW]

When you essentially invite a half a million people to participate in what has become more a tourist activity than a religious pilgrimage, you get tourists, who, away from the social constraints of home, are notoriously ill behaved. That said, many people on the Camino de Santiago are there on a Catholic spiritual pilgrimage and those people should have a separate time for mass and that mass should be silent and free of photography (and all media). The rules should be gently but firmly enforced.

 

[WalkingInGers]

The disruption and disrespect by tourists and others at the Pilgrim Mass in Santiago is not new.

I have observed it from 2009 and it continues today. From bus loads of tourists with camino scarfs around their necks talking and pushing to loud conversations during the blessing of the Eucharist mid Mass.

i saw that already in 2000 in Santiago and it was shocking.

 

[SabsP]

The disruption and disrespect by tourists and others at the Pilgrim Mass in Santiago is not new.

I have observed it from 2009 and it continues today. From bus loads of tourists with camino scarfs around their necks talking and pushing to loud conversations during the blessing of the Eucharist mid Mass.

I really do not want to go into a debate about this , seeing the content of religion but please let us not generalise that all " bus loads " of people with camino scarves aroud their neck are behaving in an obnoxious way. Many of them are most probably more pious than some of the so called hardcore and long distance footpilgrims.
We all know by now that many footpilgrims are no angels either.

Frankly I am getting really tired with this artificial partition of pilgrim versus tourist.

It is all about intention and what lies in your heart.

Btw, last time I was in the cathedral of Santiago a large group of Mexican pilgrims ( non walkers ) obviously paid for the Botafumeiro. They were accompanied by some priests from their parishes. Everyone of them behaved in a respectful and dignified way. Could not be said of one of the footpilgrims I sat next to.

 

[Kathor1]

The article with a link to APNews at the start of the thread is not about individuals behaving inappropriately during an act of worship in cathedrals in Europe and in a famous mosque/former museum/former Christian church in Istanbul.

It is about issues that occur because the number of foreign / one day visitors to such sites increases continuously, with their demographic also changing, and how to manage this development in view of the fact that these buildings are not museums and that they continue to be places of worship while at the same times they are places of important historic and artistic value and should therefore be accessible to non-worshipping visitors as well.

This comment in the article surprised me:

Worshippers, who often come because celebrated churches tend to have more services than regular parishes

Really that's why? At least in Europe, towns and cities with a famous cathedral like Barcelona, Rome, Paris, and Santiago have dozens of other churches. These churches may well have fewer religious services scheduled than the "celebrated churches" but that is, IMHO, not the reason why people on a one day visit or short stay are keen on going to worship at the "celebrated churches" instead.

The following aspect is the core of the article where a number of solutions are described:

An increasingly popular strategy is to have visitors and the faithful go separate ways – with services held in discrete places, visits barred at worship times, or altogether different entry queues.

As to the Santiago Cathedral, the parish holds their mass for the local community in a side chapel called "La Corticela" that is physically separated from the main nave where the four daily pilgrim masses are held. Their schedule: Mass at 11 am from Monday to Sunday. When I visited Santiago, the Cathedral was largely closed due to ongoing restoration works and I am not familiar with the exact location of the Corticela. I guess that it is visually separated from the main nave and may be even isolated from the noise of visitors?

Burgos Cathedral has a similar arrangement although you can see the chapel from the main nave through large closed glass doors. The chapel has its own separate portals through which the congregation enters and leaves - totally separated from the stream of visitors who enter through portals on the other side of the Cathedral.

 

[Kathor1]

I really do not want to go into a debate about this , seeing the content of religion but please let us not generalise that all " bus loads " of people with camino scarves aroud their neck are behaving in an obnoxious way. Many of them are most probably more pious than some of the so called hardcore and long distance footpilgrims.

I don't want to dwell on this either but it deserves being pointed out from time to time: Whole parishes from all over Spain travel by coach to the "Casa de Santiago", to the "House of Saint James", as the priest called it in several languages at midday today at the Misa del Peregrino. They are welcomed.

Sometimes one of these groups sponsors the Botafumeiro. Sometimes a member of the group is allowed to come forward during pilgrim mass to make their "ofrenda" - a short speech or prayer addressed to the Apostle. They may wear identical T-shirts and even identical scarves around their neck.

Some Camino walkers appear to entertain the idea that the pilgrim masses ought to be exclusive events for the long distance foot pilgrim with the fully stamped SJPP-Santiago credencial. It's an idea that will not fly with the Cathedral, I think.

 

[Pathfinder075]

I think it's more of a respect issue overall. if you went into a courtroom and started taking pictures with a phone what would you expect to happen. I know what would happen. People should show the same respect in a church. Unfortunately the consequences in a church are not the same as in a courtroom. But if they were, we wouldn't have this issue. In fact if the consequences were the same for the entire area around the church which may or may not be church property, you wouldn't have people putting up tents and having picnics either.

But you are right Kathar1na when you say "It's an idea that will not fly with the Cathedral, I think."

I think, money inevitably talks and the church as a whole is still a business with overheads and costs.

 

[Kathor1]

But you are right Kathar1na when you say "It's an idea that will not fly with the Cathedral, I think." Money inevitably talks and the church as a whole is still a business with overheads and costs.

This may give the impression as if there were a connection between the two sentences. There is none.

What I said was this: There will be no separate mass "events" for long distance foot pilgrims. Worshippers are worshippers with equal status, nobody is deemed to be more deserving of a "special" experience than their neighbour, whether they arrived at the church portal on foot, on a bike (just seen in the Netherlands ), on a bus or in a car - that's how I usually get to church.

 

[Kathor1]

My thoughts lean towards separate visiting times (ie: I’ve been to mosques that are explicitly closed to non-worshippers at certain times of the day).

It is common practice in numerous cathedrals in Europe: The Cathedral of Santiago has this policy (at least they have it now, they may not have had it in the past), the Cathedral of Leon has it, Canterbury Cathedral has had it for many many years already, the Cathedral of Pisa has it, the Cathedral of Cologne has it - and that's just off the top of my head .

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Thanks for changing the thread title. I apologize for my earlier post based on a misreading of threat in the original style. That also led to an incorrect response to @Tincatinker too. I think I'm good now.

@Kathar1na mentioned how masses in chapels in Santiago and Burgos helped separate worshipers from tourists. Sadly this didn't work at the cathedral in Pamplona.

As Peg and I passed through the entrance portal in Pamplona's wall we heard the cathedral's bells. We thought they announced the end of services and went around the corner to visit the place. Actually mass had just started and it was being held in a large open chapel in the rear. Because we were late and had packs and poles we viewed the mass from a bench at the rear of the nave. Others came in and wandered around. It was quite noisy and at one point during the services one worship got up and walked into the nave, placed this finger to his mouth and let out the largest "Shhhhh" you ever heard before returning to the mass in progress.

 

[Pathfinder075]

This may give the impression as if there were a connection between the two sentences. There is none.

What I said was this: There will be no separate mass "events" for long distance foot pilgrims. Worshippers are worshippers with equal status, nobody is deemed to be more deserving of a "special" experience than their neighbour, whether they arrived at the church portal on foot, on a bike (just seen in the Netherlands ), on a bus or in a car - that's how I usually get to church.

Yeah sorry, I should have separated the two statements a bit better. I tried editing it, but I still doesn't enforce the same level of disconnection as I would like.

 

[David Tallan]

I disagree. Peg's hometown in 1900 had four Roman Catholic churches. They have since lost about a quarter of the population but three of the four parishes.

As I commented above, I agree that this is a threat. But that isn't the threat discussed in the article. I'm not sure that the major cathedrals and basilicas (or in the case of Hagia Sofia, mosques) as discussed in the article are really under threat.

 

[JabbaPapa]

There will be no separate mass "events" for long distance foot pilgrims.

There can be something of the sort with organised large groups of religious foot pilgrims, such as on the occasion of the annual Paris to Chartres pilgrimage for example. Or very large organised groups of parish/diocesan Portuguese foot pilgrims to Fátima.

Though even then -- if someone else can get into the church before it's full, he or she won't be excluded.

Even so, such exceptions simply prove the general rule that you have very well stated.