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As a “slow stroller” I always step aside to let faster walkers pass me, especially when they are in large talkative groupsI think the difference between a road and a path is significant here. "Road" being for motorized vehicles; path being for pedestrians and possibly cyclists.
When you are walking on a road for motorized vehicles, the general "rule of thumb" is to walk facing traffic (in Spain and Portugal, on the left). I say "rule of thumb" because common sense is to be exercised. If it is a busy road without intersections and stop signs, and I am joining on the right side, and am leaving it fairly soon on the right side, I may stay on the right side, figuring that the risk of being hit walking there is less than the risk of being hit trying to cross the road twice. Similarly, heading into a blind curve or up a steep hill, I am going to walk on the side that gives approaching traffic the best chance of seeing me before hitting me.
When you are on a footpath, you are the traffic. As such, the general expectation is that you will behave as the way people are used to traffic behaving (keep to the right, pass to the left, etc.).
I did say traffic. And I’ve seen pilgrims walking on the right side of a narrow road, forcing oncoming cars (and sometimes cyclists) to weave through an obstacle course of pilgrims.That's correct for roads with car/truck/bus traffic, but not pedestrian/bike only trails.
I am waiting for the day that a walking pilgrim accidentally hoists an aggressive overtaking bicyclist on a pointy hiking pole. All you have do is turn around with your pole raised... as if you were surprised... and presto... “shish kabob” biker.
I am not a statistical expert and do not wish to argue with your findings.Each year, while working at the Pilgrim Office I take note of the broken bones of walking pilgrims forced off the paths by cyclists. The walking pilgrims show up for their Compstelas in all manner of arm, wrist, and ankle casts, braces and splints.
I rarely, if ever, have seen a "broken biker." However, I do allow that it can happen, but likely of their own doing, and not the result of a collision with a walking pilgrim.
In any altercation between a walking pilgrim and a biker, the walking pilgrim is likely to have greater injuries, at least in my observation.
I can't help but think that you are inferring that cyclists can carry on with their Caminos with no obvious injuries while pedestrians display the results of the cyclist's folly?I understand what you are saying. Perhaps I should have been more specific. What I meant was that I do not see many 'broken bikers' who have collided with a walking pilgrim.
Yes We noticed the samenthing with runners as well. A courteous bell or beep beep would very much appreciatedMy daughter and I have just completed the Camino Portuguese Coastal route. A delightful walk apart from expected foot troubles.
Met some lovely pilgrims walking the path. However, our experience with cyclists who may or may not have been pilgrims was not so great.
Many, but not all behaved as if they owned the paths.
These are shared paths where most pilgrims are walkers. The “guilty” cyclists rode two abreast at speeds which intimidated the walkers and were dangerous.
Please cyclists remember you are sharing the path. Slow down when you encounter walkers and ring your bell so we know you are coming. We are happy to move over so you can pass.
I have walked a number of Caminos and many times cyclists have stopped to help me when I'm can't decide which way I need to go as some Caminos are better marked than others. They are scary when they come from behind. I find that true here at home as well as on the Camino. However, I also know from being a cyclist years ago, that unless it is a head on collision, I would most likely suffer much greater injury from contact with a pedestrian than they would. Most cyclist know this an will avoid pedestrians, for their own safety.I am not a cyclist. I find the antipathy to cyclists and others quite extraordinary especially from people on a spiritual/religous/faith endeavour such as a Camino, surely the point of a camino is to learn who to deal with yourself and others? Weren't the original pilgrims sent on a camino as a pennace to absolve them of their sins? Embarking on a pilgrimage voluntarily indicates to me that the pilgrim recognises that they are not 100% blameless or in the right, I walked mine to do a personall account of my actions to wards others, I know I am not perfect nor is everyone else, but I try to give others the benefit of the doubt, unlike
Surely forgiveness and understanding are worth more than any inconvenience caused.
In life annoyances happen, deal with it.
I am loathe to re-enter this debate as it was the reason for me to stop reading this forum, such was the level of vitriol displayed by some, towards cyclists. (Darn that email with the top 25 topics of June!)
Here are some points:
Why does a cyclist want to follow the same path as those walking? For this cyclist it was because that is where the people are! It is simply a better experience, more social, more meaningful.
Meeting someone sheltering from the pouring rain or struggling up a hill or basking in the sunshine is far superior to talking to that same person later about those experiences.
From my experience there are four types of cyclist on the Camino routes:
- The local recreational rider, either solo or in a group: He/she is riding on his local route. It behooves us to remember that fact.
- The local utility cyclist:He/she is riding on his local route, possibly to check you in at your Albergue. It behooves us to remember that fact.
- The “Camino Package” cyclist: Probably using a baggage service, light, unencumbered and can be of various skill levels from quite experienced to total amateur. In my experience the most troublesome because the journey tends to be viewed as a biking trip as opposed to a Pilgrimage and the experienced tend to want to go fast and the inexperienced are lacking skills and etiquette. Similarly, it may be members of a club from far away who are seeking a new adventure. It behooves them to adapt their behaviour to fit their environment.
- Finally, there’s the Pilgrim on a bike. Their goals are probably the same as yours, with the possibility that they can go a bit faster or a bit longer. Their rights and obligations are the same as any other pilgrim, whether on foot, with a donkey or any other method.
I understand people not wanting to share their hiking paths with cyclists. I’d question if we’re actually talking about hiking paths. I think we’re looking a local roads, routes, paths that have been used by locals for who knows how long with who knows what method of transport.
If I start with the idea that this is a hiking path, automatically anyone not hiking becomes an invader. If I start with the idea that I am on a multi-use path, the attitude is different.
I don’t like sharing my cycle paths with pedestrians. However, I know that irrespective of any rules or laws that I will encounter pedestrians. I have the choice of getting myself wound up about it or learning to let it go. I know which I find to be the best.
I dislike the introduction of legalities into the discussion. First of all, only local laws apply. Secondly, laws are open to interpretation. Thirdly, to a certain extent, it doesn’t matter what the law says, I am still responsible for my own safety and behaviour.
Perception of danger is different to actual danger. For good or bad, it seems that these days “feelings” outweigh facts. Without meaning to belittle anyone’s experiences, just because you felt in danger, does not mean that you were in actual danger.
As a person on a bike if I hit you I’m also likely to hurt myself. Believe me, I’m very well aware of that fact and it is not my intention to put myself into a risky situation, especially if far away from home.
For some perspective, I fell off my bike at about 8-10 kph. There was no-one around for kilometers in either direction (my pride was thankful!). Result? I lost a load of skin on my right arm, leg and palms of my hands. My helmet cracked. My right shoulder was dislocated and I bruised three ribs. I had severe discomfort for several weeks after. I have no intention of increasing the risk of such an incident again.
I think anyone advocating a boycott of cyclists on any of the Camino routes should tread very carefully.
Unless you’re local to the actual route, I think you should avoid such a position.
Imagine, if you will, foreign people advocating that you, in your local place, be banned from doing something in your own local area. Something as innocuous as cycling a bike!
People should remember that this is an international forum and the attitudes of your homeplace, while perfectly normal to you may not be perfectly normal to someone from somewhere else, or indeed in Spain or Portugal. Those of us who live in places where bikes are integrated into a normal transport system will view bike traffic differently to those where bikes are very much an outlier.
I can’t believe I have to say this, but cyclists are not all the same. Sorry, let me rephrase that, people who ride bikes are not all the same. Humans are not all alike.
As a person on a bike, I too have had negative interactions with other humans on bikes. Even on the Camino. There most certainly are some complete plonkers on bikes. However, there were also some complete plonkers on foot, too.
Not every person who rides a bike wears lycra!
Solutions?
It is very difficult. First of all, depending on where we come from, we have preconceived attitudes to cycling, rules, laws, etiquette.
If you doubt that assertion just think of some of the behaviour you no doubt witnessed in Albergues.
I have no doubt that the commercialisation of the Camino(s) is a huge factor. For a lot of people this is just a trip to take, whether on foot, by bike, by bus. Education for these people is an absolute necessity, but I can see no way how to effectively do it apart from limiting these companies. And that is unpalatable to me.
Education, generally would be a big help. As was suggested upthread (and I believe I suggested something similar before) an information booklet with every credencia would perhaps be helpful. Not everyone researched everything to the nth detail. Some, genuinely have no idea outside their own bubble. This would be useful for lots of things, not just biking.
Signs for people on foot as well as people on bikes at certain pinch points would be helpful. These could advocate, for example walking in single file or biking in single file, minimum distances or times between people on a bike. The dangers of earpods in especially high risk places. Perhaps highlight speed limits on certain sections. I'd have no problems with walking only sections for people on a bike. The reality is, that if you're toting your own gear there's every probability that you will be walking sections, anyway.
Etiquette flyers, multilingual, of course, could be distributed at Albergues/hotels for the appropriate groups, mainly for people on bikes. As a pilgrim, if you witnessed poor form from a person on a bike you could hand over one of these to the offender rather than fuming internally or exploding externally.
(By the way, such flyers could also explain the rights of people on a bike too!)
I’d have no problem with a rule that said a bike had to have a bell, for example, to stay in an Albergue. Of course, that mandates a bell, it does not mandate using the thing.
Perhaps a humorous and incentivising thing to do for people on a bike to do would be to acquire signatures from other Pilgrims along the way attesting to the carrier’s good biking etiquette. I don’t imagine the Pilgrim’s office would be interested in such a thing, but an online campaign on Facebook, or the like, could be a fun way of getting a point across. Definitely something for the Companies providing these tours to consider.
But, I believe, the most important factor in reducing the impact of this issue is to look at our packs (or panniers). What are we carrying with us on this trip that is going to weigh us down? What can we really do without, leave at home? Maybe, just maybe, along with that super heavy toothbrush, we can leave some of our attitudes at home or at least exchange them for some lighter ones.
In any case, once certain groups begin to be excluded from the Camino, then the Camino is no longer the Camino.
Yes, I realise now that I was reacting a bit defensively because even I know how awful some people in charge of a bike can be and I agree totally with you. I live in a large city which has a lot of students in particular (but by no means all) who think nothing of cycling through red lights, swerving in the path of cars without indicating their intention to do so, and startling people walking on shared pedestrian/cyclist paths. Sadly, this type of behaviour gives us all a bad name and I'm forever having to defend cyclists even in my local Bowls club. It is not the fault of any pedestrian if a cyclist has the affront to think that they automatically have the right of way. It is the cyclist's duty to ensure that any pedestrian is aware of them long before they reach each other. That way, you prevent startling people and avoid such a confrontation as you encountered.I have not made such a generalization or assumption. I even pointed out that everyone else in that mini-peloton were passing with care, and that one of the group even apologized.
If you are referring to my statement that I do not like sharing hiking trails and paths with bikes, I would argue that my statement is not a generalized condemnation. It is the recognition of a reality for potential conflict which periodically creates injury, and tension, and a loss of enjoyment due to the need to worry about what a cyclist might do.
Bells, horns, hollering, buzzers, or other warning noisemakers, are not an absolution or a solution for those with hearing loss. Even with normal hearing, it is difficult to hear bikes approaching from behind. Those with normal hearing and who are in a world of their own are engaged in perfectly normal behavior for hikers.
You, yourself, are doing what is required of bikers, but which many cyclists ignore: you slow down when approaching pedestrians, make sure they are aware of your presence and act in a manner to increase everyone's safety. That is commendable, and I have seen a lot of bicycle pilgrims do the same.
Hi Flatlander:
There’s a solution to this situation. Please see my posting, #88, in this thread.
As you said, both parties needs education; but, also courtesy, patience, control. In all, civil responsibility to each other. It’s the same basic principle as when driving a car/automobile; we have to be in defensive. Be aware of the the surrounding and give yourself time to react to the immediate situation.
Which incident?I’m sorry about your incident; could it have been avoided? I wasn’t there to judge, I suppose yes, again it takes both sides to compromise.....
I doubt I'll do a Camino again. I really enjoyed mine, and have mined a huge amount from it. Walking is not possible for me, unfortunately and there are far better places to bike.My best to you, hoping we have the opportunity to share our paths during the next Camino.
Buen Camino,
The "inconvenience" might be being hit by a cyclist coming from behind with no warning whilst. in a foreign country "forgiveness and understanding " wouldn't be my first reaction
Yes I found that annoying too. Some if these cyclists are not pilgrims. They are cycle clubs doing their weekend long treks . I spoke to a friend cyclist and he said they find the walkers annoying in the reverse way , cause we hinder them . Tgey should have the cycle paths be differentMy daughter and I have just completed the Camino Portuguese Coastal route. A delightful walk apart from expected foot troubles.
Met some lovely pilgrims walking the path. However, our experience with cyclists who may or may not have been pilgrims was not so great.
Many, but not all behaved as if they owned the paths.
These are shared paths where most pilgrims are walkers. The “guilty” cyclists rode two abreast at speeds which intimidated the walkers and were dangerous.
Please cyclists remember you are sharing the path. Slow down when you encounter walkers and ring your bell so we know you are coming. We are happy to move over so you can pass.
....
Bells, horns, hollering, buzzers, or other warning noisemakers, are not an absolution or a solution for those with hearing loss. Even with normal hearing, it is difficult to hear bikes approaching from behind. Those with normal hearing and who are in a world of their own are engaged in perfectly normal behavior for hikers.
....
Well, that's true. It applies to just about any human interaction. Both sides claim rights. It is only when responsibilities are brought into the discussion can progress be made.
I am confused and agitated that on this forum, of all places, at the attitude displayed towards people on bikes.
Complaints about bed racers, snorers, kitchen hoggers and we're advised that that's part of the Camino experience. We must not judge. We must accommodate.
But cyclists? Ban them! "All cyclists think like this...." Is that not judgemental? I find it all very unChristian and as far from the "Camino Ethos" as it's possible to get. That is not to say that inconsiderate people on bikes should not be called out on their behaviour.
I can't help but feel that as someone on a bike, it appears that there is a large number of posters here who will automatically judge me by my mode of transport. To change that negative perception, I will have to do something exceptional. Simply being courteous and responsible will not be enough for too many here.
Which incident?
The fall? That was carelessness most likely. Open road, nobody for miles, loose gravel, a few large stones under the sand, letting my mind wander..... No long term damage. I remember explaining to a lady who was looking in horror at my badly scraped leg that this was still better than working.
As for the hiking pole incident, no harm was done. I'm pretty sure the lady was having a tough, emotional day, and just needed to vent. I'm pretty sure she felt bad afterwards. She struggled to speak and was very emotional. Had my wheel been damaged it would have been a different story. What I did notice was that none of her group came to our assistance. I say "our" because I'm pretty sure some people would have reacted just as violently as she was being. I thought that was interesting.
I doubt I'll do a Camino again. I really enjoyed mine, and have mined a huge amount from it. Walking is not possible for me, unfortunately and there are far better places to bike.
What the Camino can give us is available closer to home - if we're brave enough to look for it. But perhaps we all need that first one to get us going.
I despair to think that the opportunity might be denied to someone like me.
Is this kinda what we are talking about?
I'm hard of hearing
I don't hear bells and whistles until very close.
And that is all I would ever ask. Remember, very young or very elderly pilgrims may not be able to process and react as quickly to a cyclist approaching from behind as a fit adult pilgrim.It is not the fault of any pedestrian if a cyclist has the affront to think that they automatically have the right of way. It is the cyclist's duty to ensure that any pedestrian is aware of them long before they reach each other. That way, you prevent startling people and avoid such a confrontation as you encountered.
No problem there. a nice, wide flat path with plenty of room for passing.Is this kinda what we are talking about?
I don't think anyone here is judging you for your chosen mode of transport. Speaking for myself, I'm posting about the many times I've had to react to cyclists on paths (usually with an indication of an alternate route for cyclists) that are so steep/rocky/narrow that they already present an opportunity for injury, especially for those who are older or with a physical impairment. The added worry about mountain bikers flying down an already difficult path, especially when they're approaching from a blind spot, only adds more stress to the situation. Luckily I have very keen hearing and I can sense them coming, especially when they're at speed.I can't help but feel that as someone on a bike, it appears that there is a large number of posters here who will automatically judge me by my mode of transport. To change that negative perception, I will have to do something exceptional. Simply being courteous and responsible will not be enough for too many here.
I read these and similar posts before selecting which Camino to do. As a cyclist I ruled out the Frances because of the obvious walker-cyclist animosity, and chose the VdlP. There are so few pilgrims on the route that cyclists and walkers always greet each other cordially. Worth considering...My daughter and I have just completed the Camino Portuguese Coastal route. A delightful walk apart from expected foot troubles.
Met some lovely pilgrims walking the path. However, our experience with cyclists who may or may not have been pilgrims was not so great.
Many, but not all behaved as if they owned the paths.
These are shared paths where most pilgrims are walkers. The “guilty” cyclists rode two abreast at speeds which intimidated the walkers and were dangerous.
Please cyclists remember you are sharing the path. Slow down when you encounter walkers and ring your bell so we know you are coming. We are happy to move over so you can pass.
James, I rode the Camino de Santiago route with my husband and found the roads gave a much better route than we expected. We generally stuck to the road all the way. There was a bit of a section where we found ourselves off the road and on the footpath and it became quite narrow in places. So we were down to a very slow pace ourselves in order to ensure we all (walkers and cyclists) got safely to our destination.I read these and similar posts before selecting which Camino to do. As a cyclist I ruled out the Frances because of the obvious walker-cyclist animosity, and chose the VdlP. There are so few pilgrims on the route that cyclists and walkers always greet each other cordially. Worth considering...
OMG. We had the exact same experience. For me, this was the worst part of my walk. I had almost forgotten (selective memory) until you mentioned it. They would literally force walkers off of the path. Now, there were some who had bells on their bikes (I assumed these were the actual pilgrims) who would at least make you aware of their presence, but the bulk of them were not very kind.My daughter and I have just completed the Camino Portuguese Coastal route. A delightful walk apart from expected foot troubles.
Met some lovely pilgrims walking the path. However, our experience with cyclists who may or may not have been pilgrims was not so great.
Many, but not all behaved as if they owned the paths.
These are shared paths where most pilgrims are walkers. The “guilty” cyclists rode two abreast at speeds which intimidated the walkers and were dangerous.
Please cyclists remember you are sharing the path. Slow down when you encounter walkers and ring your bell so we know you are coming. We are happy to move over so you can pass.
OMG. We had the exact same experience. For me, this was the worst part of my walk. I had almost forgotten (selective memory) until you mentioned it. They would literally force walkers off of the path. Now, there were some who had bells on their bikes (I assumed these were the actual pilgrims) who would at least make you aware of their presence, but the bulk of them were not very kind.
Must have been part of the Spandex brigade (they work in grammes). Older, shall we say more mature, cyclists go much slower and possess a bell, or electric buzzer. The more fragile cyclist, like me, has a bell (for fellow travellers), an airhorn for naughty dogs (and fellow travellers wearing earpods) and flashing lights for other vehicles. Due to illness, I use an e-Trike that normally manages a sedate 15kph (solo), 13kph (with trailer); I would not dream of using a track narrower than 2m.I was told (by a cyclist) it was to keep the weight downI kid you not!
This is why I have a bell (for walkers without airpods), an airhorn for dogs (and walkers wearing earpods or looking at Andple device) and front/rear 4K cameras so there can be no misunderstanding if the authorities are involved. Due to illness, I ride a spandex-free Azub Ti-Fly e-Trike that rarely exceeds 13kph towing my clothes/catheters/medications; I slow down when passing people and would not dream of using a track narrower than 2m. If there was a collision; I would be the first casualty!You do bring up some points of worthwhile consideration.
I do not imagine that you are meaning to say that bicycles have been in existence as long as pedestrians. I would argue that pedestrians ARE, in fact, the 'legacy' users of the Camino pathways (farm roads, etc), although horses also share that distinction even though infrequently seen outside of the O Cebreiro section.
I would also argue that even in the modern revival of Camino, that IF bicycles were used in the early days, that they would have NOT have been the types of bicycles (trail bikes, etc) which would have allowed the speeds and dangerous practices that put pedestrians at risk, which cyclists now are engaged in.
Aside from all of that, there are some things that are part of Spanish law regarding bicycles.
Legally, a large percentage of cyclists (not all) that I have encountered, are in violation of Spain's cycling laws and regulations. For example:
There has also been notice taken, by various local jurisdictions, of the large number of complaints by Camino walkers about cyclists (I cannot find those news articles right now, maybe someone can locate the source). From my recollection, the discussions revolved around whether to officially ban bicycles from certain narrow sections of paths and trails on the Camino Frances.
- In Spain, pedestrians always have the right of way, or priority, over cyclists on trails or other shared paths.
- The speed limit is limited at all times to no more than 18 miles per hour/ 30km/h.
- When pedestrians are present cyclists are required, by law, to approach with caution and slow down to speeds no higher than 6 miles per hour / 10km/h. The exception to the speed limit is if participating in sanctioned racing events.
- Cyclists are not to wear earphones of other distracting devices which can create a hazard to pedestrians.
I do not think cyclists are aware that their access to all of the Camino Frances is being put at risk due to their own behaviors.
For the present, despite the risks to pedestrians posed by some cyclists, the Camino pathways are to be shared but with preference and priority of the path given to the pedestrian when regarding safety. That is a given.
While I recognize the necessity to share the pathways, I do not have to like it. In fact, I can despise it and become angry when I am needlessly put at risk by a cyclist. I say this advisedly, as I have lent a hand to bicycling pilgrims as they have pushed their heavy bikes up hills, and have sat and chatted with biking pilgrims in the shade of trees during a break.
I developed a great friendship with a bicycling pilgrim from Massachusetts that I met during a shuttle ride from Biarritz last mid-September when I began my last Camino. We got to know each other during the afternoon and evening while walking and sight seeing around SJPdP. Clovis also joined me during the next day's walk to Roncesvalles where he picked up his bicycle rental and gear the next morning. With a couple of other pilgrims we met at the albergue, we had dinner together that evening and attended the wonderful Pilgrim Mass at the chapel. After that, we kept touch with each other's progress on the Camino at the end of each day. We still chat from time-to-time to this day.
We can recognize there are those who are safe with a bicycle, and who are cognizant of THEIR need to share the Camino pathways with pedestrians, and who are not a danger or problem. But that still leaves a large percentage of dangerous cyclists, many who are probably local and club riders that are residents of Spain, who do act in a manner that is careless and poses a danger to Camino pedestrians.
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