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Economic crisis in spain

piogaw

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Time of past OR future Camino
Camino frances (05/06 2012) sjpdp-sdc; vdlp/camino sanabrea (02/03 2013) sevilla-sdc; hospitalero sdc june 2013, august-september 2013; caminho portugues (03 2014) lisboa-sdc
I have just heard that spain officially came out of recession. However i wonder whether this statistic is export orientated instead of creating jobs for the domestic market. I don't know how long this will eventually trickled down to the small pueblos..

I would continuously ask all you peregrinos not to be tight with your money when you pass through all the small pueblos/cities, but to be generous in spending your money to kickstart the economy. Your spending in all these pueblos is highly appreciated. This proud nation and its people are already down on their luck. They do not ask for charity but to make a decent living. So extend a helping hand to this nation.

Que tengan un buen camino a todos los peregrinos. May god bless you all.
 
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I agree. The Spaniards are hard-working people often working more than two jobs to make ends meet which is the reason I feel nothing but very good about staying at the small "Momma & Poppa" hostel and having a suitcase transferred by the hard working network that Jacotrans sustains along the Caminos.
 
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Oh come on...economic growth of 0.1% hardly means the huge economic crisis which is gripping this country is over. The Prime Minister just said that although the country might be pulling out of recession in its technical definition the crisis is far from over. Good for pilgrims spending their hard earned cash but until Spain addresses its hugely bloated public sector, fabulously generous annual holidays, free health service which is better than anything I have ever experienced in the UK and a government pension scheme which might even be the envy of Greece I fear the worst!
 
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You can add to that list - bloated infrastructure spending on highways that go nowhere and high speed rail that no average Spaniard can afford.
Saw some of that first hand while walking the Via de la Plata this past spring

Spain's economic issues run deep.
 
At least the Spanish government invested heavily in infrastructre. Road, rail connections in Spain are wonderful compared to before the EC funded investment. And please bear in mind that it is not government debt that has crippled Spain but private debt driven by an unsubstainable property bubble. Spanish banks lending to northern europeans buying holiday homes on unsustainable security is what stuffed Spain. Add banks lending to property developers whose grip on reality was tenuous at best and you have the major contributor to the current shambles. As those who have walked through the ghost towns of Rioja and Navarra on the Camino or visited the dead zones of the Costas in the south will know.

I am delighted that one of the European countries for whose people I have a great deal of affection is beginning to approach a point where things might start to get a little bit better!

Meanwhile I am with Piogaw, pilgrim: god does not count your steps nor Santiago weigh your pack therefore look to your heart pilgrim... and support those who support you
 

Well, Mr. Johnnie Walker, I have to disagree with some of what you say. I'm in Madrid right now and have been meeting with officials from the city government, mainly lawyers, and law professors, and this bloated public sector has been given a very severe "haircut." Privatization is the currency of the realm and Madrid has privatized some of its hospitals. If the quality of health care remains the same, I will be stunned.

In my opinion, there is enough wealth in Spain to sustain the generous holidays, the health care system, etc, it's just that that wealth is poorly distributed and concentrated in a small number of families. That bloated public sector may have a lot of employees, but it's not exactly like they are making the big bucks. A full time law professor at a public university in Spain makes no more than 2,500 or 3,000 euros a month. Garbage collectors (to whom I mean no disrespect) in the city of Chicago make more than that. Even accounting for differences in the cost of living, that is a pretty stark comparison.

I wish I could hop on up to Santiago so we could discuss this over a bottle of wine and some tapas. But that will have to wait till next May or June. Buen camino, Laurie
 
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Well, well, Ms Laurie a discussion about the redistribution of wealth might best wait for a bottle of wine and tapas because it is, I fear, a dangerously political topic for discussion on a pilgrims forum. But with the net take home pay of the majority of workers in Spain is less than 1500€ per month I won't feel too much sympathy for those poor law professors - sorry! As for garbage collection...my garbage in Santiago is emptied four times per day! - yes 4 times a day a lorry comes with two operators then another comes and sweeps the streets manually before another comes and washes the streets - I kid you not. Some haircut!

A very serious point from our point of view is whether the network of public albergues which are subsidised to keep charges down is sustainable in this environment. We'll see.

Anyway I apologise for these controversial comments and I of course agree with Tincatinker that any improvement in the overall economic position is very welcome.
 

In the UK it's taken a long time since the return to growth to actually feel any difference in the "real" economy and to be honest I think the damage is going to be really hard to repair socially. I have a lot of sympathy for Spain which fell a lot harder than we did and any return to growth must be welcome news.

The Spanish seem a very resilient people and i really wish them good luck.
 
Mr Walker, and your point is? I live in a bit of the beloved UK where we get a fortnightly bin collection and see a street sweeper about twice a year provided its not raining or there are no other "adverse weather conditions". I don't live in a city that gets thousands of visitors a day (some of whom have not embraced a full pilgrim lifestyle - thankfully), is severely lacking in back gardens, yards or anywhere else to park the daily crap that accumulates. I am aware that there is still a significant Spanish "public sector" that some might view as unjustifiable ( until they are up to their necks in pilgrim sh*te) but on the whole I think Spain has some things right. Perhaps a few less lawyers and law professors running the cities might help things along
 
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Thank you! That made me laugh.
 
The technical indicator of an 'Economic Recovery' is two consecutive quarters of positive economic growth as measured by a country's gross domestic product (GDP).
Economists use a variety of indicators, including GDP, inflation, financial markets and unemployment to analyse the state of the economy and determine whether a recovery is in progress.

I'm a stock trader and believe the stock markets to be a 'Leading' indicator of recovery.
They show local and international investors' future expectations, their confidence in the local economy.
These are actual people putting their money where their mouth is.
I don't see how you could get a better indicator than that.

On the other hand IMO, Employment is typically a 'Lagging' indicator, as unemployment often remains high even as the economy begins to recover. This is because many employers will not hire additional personnel until they are confident there is a long-term need for new hiring.

It hardly needs saying that while an economic recovery is in progress a person still without a job sees no reason to celebrate, and the small villages are usually last to feel any benefits.
So, here we are, walking thru lots of these.
Let's help a little, let's open our purses a little along the Way.

Regds
Gerard
 
This is my first post and I feel its important. As a kid in California I was taught to tip EVERYONE, all the time and tip well. Then I spent time in Amsterdam doing work and I was told it wasn't necessary. I didn't care, I tipped anyway. If someone provides you a service, no matter how small; show your appreciation with a tip. 15% is the norm in the US and I have tipped a 100% in some instances for exceptional service. Service is not an easy occupation, Take care to take care of those that serve you. Cheers!
 
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I can see that tipping is a common thing in the US. Tipping is not a common thing in Spain, for good reasons. I hope you do care!

Personally, for me the way you describe your position in restaurants is like personel are indeed your servants. But in europe they are not, you're both equal.
In many countries the culture and also the law is that that people working in restaurants and bars are not servants but people who deserve a normal salary, as any other person.
A normal salary is a right and is showing respect, people should never be dependent of tips in their work. Tipping people in an excesive way can be seen as disrespectful and feudal.
I do hope that the US overcame this period and bar- and restaurant workers do get the salary they deserve while having a difficult occupation and are not dependent of your tip. Just like any other profession.

I do hope though that you do have the abbility to look critical to your own habbits, especially while in other countries. Going to other cultures can teach anyone a lot, as long as you don't just stick to your own local californian habbits.
 
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I have been visiting Spain for years and have never found tipping not to be the norm. What I have found is that the Spanish appreciate the tip unlike a lot of countries including my own where the tip is expected but not so much apreciated.
A normal salary where one doesn't need tips should be the norm but in the real world this is not the case so tip generously.

PS. Welcome to the forum Funkyskier
 
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Hi funkyskier -
Welcome to the forum!
My opinion on tipping has been similar to yours.
I asked the question because, after years going to Spain, I did notice that tipping was not a common practice.
I also asked the question because although I know those in service industries here in North America are paid very low wages as they are supposed to make a living from tips, in many European countries they have historically been paid a "living wage".
I just wonder in these drastic economic times if those service industry wages had been reduced.
 
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What an interesting post even with the deviation into the tipping issue! Piogaw's original point is about generosity. More than once this year, on the Ruta de La Lana, I found that the amigos provided one of their own houses or flats for pilgrims' use. There was even a large bowl of fruit in one and a bottle of orujo in another. Don't leave a donation, I was told, give something to one of the many beggars you meet. Almsgiving was a traditional part of pilgrimages in the past.

It is also an option in many supermarkets to buy a bag of rice or other staple food and put it in a trolley for Caritas which is innundated at the moment for requests for help for food. Or you can give to Caritas in the Churches.

Many of you will also have met people on the camino who are basically walking the Camino, in either direction, because they are homeless. One young man I met near Léon was on his way to Paris after walking to Santiago from Madrid where he had been sleeping rough having been thrown out of the house he was buying with a mortgage he could no longer pay because nearly all construction work has dried up. He had decided to walk on and intended to learn enough French on the way to work in Paris. If you find you are carrying more than you need, a shirt you've not used, a tent or maybe some bread you can usually find someone like this young man who will receive it willingly from you.
 
Thank you, freescot.

You live in madrid, so you know very well the economic situation. I am grateful to you for pointing out the charity organisation caritas. Also donations to the spanish red cross are highly appreciated as they are the main organisation in spain distributing food packages to the less fortunate-the poor families who don't have enough to eat. Compassion for your fellow citizens is a virtue.

Also i have not realised that there are people walking the caminos who are homeless. I actually met 2 of them this past winter walking the vdlp from sevilla. I was able to share food with one of them. However the other one did not bother to stay in the albergue when he found it was not a donativo. Thank you for pointing out to me.

I have a strong affinity to spain as i travel to spain very frequently to visit friends, spending 3-4 months in spain on several trips. I am also fortunate to speak the language, so i know pretty much what is going on.

I wish every peregrino a buen camino. And may god bless you all.
 
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I agree with Peregrina2000.
The message we receive everyday from the government is that "hemos vivido por encima de nuestras posibilidades" . But the ones who do that are politics. Last weekend we could read in "Mercados" magazine (a supplement of "El Mundo", which is a right-centre trend newspaper) that the only company which created some employment was "Politica SA". In fact they calculated over 145.000 emploments. So, they have reduced the public sector but mainly such things like the salaries of government employees (I am one of them). There are many examples of money wasted by the public sector, for instance one building in Zaragoza which needed 500 millions euros to be raised and now it's abandoned. The same happens with the AVE, with stations that almost nobody uses.
So, it's true, we can be coming out of reccesion but the price is very high. The gap between rich and poor people is getting so big. And many people are struggling so hard to have something to eat everyday, something really strange not so many years ago (Caritas, Red Cross and many others are doing great efforts)
But maybe it's true, this is not the best place to talk about this.
Regarding tips, my practice and I think the one of the majority of Spanish people is that of Wayfarer. Waiters in Spain have a salary and tips are a complement.
 
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In most restaurants the service charge is shown on the receipt if charged , but I say if I can afford to eat in the place I can afford to trow a few cents tip, and one never picks up the small change after a coffee, beer etc, after all, what goes around comes around
 

Bloated government "consultant fees" are a big part of the problem. Spanish taxpayers are still carrying tons of useless political croneys on their backs: http://www.davidjackson.info/2013/politics-is-spains-largest-industry-confirms-the-state-auditor.htm

Meantime, down here in the pueblo, someone´s stolen the grates off all the new storm drains, probably to sell for scrap. Yet another good reason for pilgrims to NOT walk in the dark...
 
I remember in the height of the Great Recession that people in the States, were stealing copper wire right from the hydro poles and lines, etc

I guess for Spain - The Great Recession will go on for some time...,

Watch your step - the next one could be your last.
 
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Although I have never heard of anyone giving underpaid healthcare workers who often work in combat zones ( I mean emergency dept when violent patients decide to be violent to the people who help them ) being tipped.

Having said that , I am not against tipping at all. (Also as an underpaid health care worker, I would not accept a tip even if offered as I am in the business of serving others but at times it can be a very thankless job …..)
 
I would tip a Healthcare worker if I could afford to. My last Emergency Room visit I was billed $50 USD for (2) Tylenol (Acetaminophen). Everywhere seems to have its problems of its own, ours is the insane cost of Healthcare. A trip to the Emergency Room in the US will cost a minimum of $2500
 
jirit said:
I remember in the height of the Great Recession that people in the States, were stealing copper wire right from the hydro poles and lines, etc.
Click to expand...
Here in Yorkshire they steal the wire from railway signals. Happens all the time, recession or no recession. I believe it gets melted down, sold to China and made into signalling wire for Yorkshire's railways.
 
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Around here thieves steal Air-Conditioners for the copper and the electrical wiring out of homes during construction. I agree on the recession/no recession comment. During a recession the only difference is that people are paying more attention to it.
 
tyrrek said:
Here in Yorkshire they steal the wire from railway signals. Happens all the time, recession or no recession. I believe it gets melted down, sold to China and made into signalling wire for Yorkshire's railways.
Click to expand...

I believe that is called a sustainable recycled business
 
I was recently scraped of the pavement by ambulance personnel after a hip dislocation. I was taken to the emergency room where it was banged back in. A week later a replacement hip was inserted. A week in hospital then a couple of months of rehab.
Total cost $ 0.00.
Don't you just hate Socialist economies.
Regds
Gerard
 
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A friend in Spain who is trying to get someone repair the communal garage door is having trouble getting someone to come and quote. She waited in all day yesterday for the one who said he would come and quote and he not only didn't turn up, he didn't even answer his phone! She commented to me last night that "It is no wonder we are in trouble"
 

Now I will admit that trying to study the Spanish economy from the other side of world can be difficult. So with that "rider" my question, about the growth of new high speed rail and 4 lane highways, is how long will it take for the Spanish economy (government and people!!) to repay this debt? The current rates of unemployment (in general) and the underemployment particularly for those in the under 25 sector have to be addressed or there will be a lost generation of people (many with university degrees) who have never had a full-time permanently job. I am now retired, but I can tell you (having studied it somewhat) that having a reason to get out of bed each day (like having a full time job) is one of the greatest motivators in society. So yes it is good that the Spanish economy is officially "out of recession" but a 10% decrease in unemployment with a continued trend would be a greater cause for celebration.
 
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Figures just released in UK state that 1 in 5 are in serious financial difficulty and 1 in 5 also went hungry at some point last year. People are suffering everywhere. All we can do when on our Caminos is remember that the smiles and generosity shown may hide things from view and try to support the local economy as best we can in our own individual circumstances.
 
Eating menu del dia etc helps, or when buying in the supermarket add in something for their 'Caritas' box. Many supermarkets have these now I think, the items go to help feed folk who are in difficulties. Our church here is now supporting a local food bank, as is our local supermarket. We live in sad and difficult times.
 
Remember too that the scruffy guy in the albergue wearing jeans and old sneakers and a no-name backpack, is not necessarily an untrustworthy "fake pilgrim." Lots of out-of-work people travel the caminos these days, and the pilgrim persona and services ease them on their way. They have little or no money, and for them it´s the albergue or the church porch, or out under the stars.
They, IMHO, have a more legitimate claim to a donativo bed than middle-class holidaymakers. They should be treated with the same respect as any other pilgrim.
 
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Hello rebekah,

Thank you for reminding us in this day of thanksgiving, don't judge a book by its cover. Please be charitable. Share a meal with them when possible. These pilgrims are too proud to ask for charity, so offer them your hospitality.

Buen camino to all peregrinos. Que tengan un buen dia. And may god blessing be upon all of you.
 

I am just guessing .. but I guess that the cost of your trip to emergency room was NOT paid to those who "treated" you … .. I am not from US .. so just a guess… most countries … most healthcare workers on the "front line" are underpaid .. God Bless them… but Oh well … we were born to the job and love it so accept the conditions …..
 
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Absolutely agree ! I will pay my way for that reason and thanks to Spain for letting me walk on their soil X
 
[
P. S. @Rebekah Scott thanks a lot for your wisdom on this forum, we have lots to learn from you. At least I have. Btw if you ever walk the Camino del Norte and pass thru Bilbo you´re invited to some pintxos and a glass of txakoli.

Ondo Ibili ![/quote]


Hi Mendi, Zer Moduz
You are inviting everyone. I think i deserve one invitation too, because I have climbed Aitzgorri, Gorbea and Pagasarri.
So, put me in your list.

P.D. Thank you for the correction of "callos".

Ata logo, agur
 
stevenjarvis said:
An interesting and insightful article about the plight of many in Spain and elsewhere http://www.dw.de/living-in-a-cave-on-the-edge-of-spanish-society/a-17253502
Click to expand...

Hello steven,

Thank you for posting this article from a german newspaper. There are many, many cases like this all over the world. My heart goes out to everyone of them. It make me sad to read this kind of reporting. We have a tendency to compare ourselves to our neighbours who have more of everything than us, but we have never look at the neighbours who are poorer than us. I have the opportunity to work for the homeless charity in london every christmas for the last 5 years, and i will tell you, i always count my blessing as compared to these poor souls. I have seen both side of the coin.

So i would like to ask everyone out there to help out if possible. Don't be too stingy to shell out a little money to help them out. It does not matter whether it is in spain, the us, canada, oceania or other part of the world.
If you can bring a smile just to one poor soul, you have done enough.

God bless and buen camino to all.
 
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I have just read current figures; - Spanish youth unemployment 57.4%

An absolute tragedy
 
We are still in recession in Ireland, we should be generous on camino. But also at home. Next Sunday I will bring 100 old folk to a special Christmas dinner, mr. Claus will drop in Buen camino , just checked Ryanair and nearly pressed button for 28/4/14 but sale in January ?
 
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I have been contemplating all this for a while. It seems most of us Anglophones grew up in a consumer society, and we judge worth and effectiveness using money as a standard. I.E., to help out a country in trouble, go there and spend lots of money. Which is a start.
But if you step back, you see the camino has been doing its thing since well before the marketing machine got rolling and people started demanding "the best albergue" and "the best waterproof membrane" and "best value for money" as well as a spiritual journey. Perhaps if we pilgrims can humble ourselves, and view ourselves as "voluntarily temporary homeless people," rather than "consumers bringing spending power into a needy economy," we can return to the simplicity and individual, person-to-person kindness that makes the camino so different from the rest of the world.
 

Hello as gaillimh,

Yes, we are still in recession in ireland. You were either still not born yet or maybe a young one when i, to appease she who must be obeyed, bought a home in dublin in 1985 when there were no jobs and the dole queue in the labour exchange extended several blocks. At that time we have lost a generation of highly educated young graduates. And now history is repeating iftself, another generation of highly educated young men are either lost or being lost to emigration.

I know the situation very well as to what is happening everywhere in the world. Problems in ireland are the same as to what is happening in spain - banking crisis (private debys to public debts). The ones who are suffering are the people - the young and the old.

For this i want to congratulate you for doing something for the old folk. You are giving back something to the community. God bless you.
 
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What a superb insight, Rebekah. I think it is a real challenge to "let go" in this way and leave so much of our security aside, even for a while. I find it very difficult setting off without planning a roof for the night but it is true that all sorts of wonders arise from letting go and trusting that something will turn up, as it always does. Thank you.
 

Wonderful sentiment.
 
Just heard an interesting report on NPR. Spain has repaid the EU for its bank bailout loans. So the segment starts out pretty rosy, but I guess if you're concerned with people and not just banks, things are looking as good. You can read or listen on this link:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...ilout-in-a-sign-of-progress-not-full-recovery

Having healthy banks is necessary, I assume, but it can't signal too much if unemployment for those under 30 is 60% and Spain is for the first time in decades an "exporter of persons."
 
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Just a note: Spain´s banks have not paid back the money borrowed. Spain has only removed itself from the list of countries in need of bailout money. Spain and the bans it backs has another 15 years to pay back the bucks.
Read a bit deeper, and you see all the optimism is political smoke and mirrors -- tricks the canny Spanish pols learned from optimists/spin doctors over the pond. Still, there is a silver lining. Four of the younger generation of Moratinos people are hitting the Camino trail in February. One is a farmer, on his seasonal break. The others (his cousins) are 30-something professionals who are unemployed. With no jobs and no prospects, there is finally time to make the pilgrimage!
 
Interesting, Rebekah. It was all over the CBC news here - Spain finally being debt-free and able to move on etc etc... It's always difficult to decipher the real issues and outcomes with all that spin.
 
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Wow, thanks for that, Reb. Though the segment doesn´t explicitly state that they HAVE paid the money back, that is clearly the implication of parts like this:

Spain's banking system on Thursday is marking an end to its reliance on bailout loans from Europe that were desperately needed 18 months ago to shore up its banks after a construction boom-and-bust.
Spain is now the second eurozone country to cleanly exit its bailout program, after Ireland.

I guess what they mean is that they don´t need any MORE bailouts, not that they have paid back anything they already took.
 
Ireland have actually paid their bailouts back. Well done the Irish! The old adage about there being " Lies, damned lies and statistics" is being played out in the UK in advance of the 2015 elections. If things are to believed we are starting to recover. I pray that Spain follows soon as I have too many friends suffering.
 
The latest economic figures for Spain suggest economic growth for the fourth quarter running, which is good but there's still a lot of ground to make up.

Interestingly, inflation is now negative in Spain (-0.5%). Although the Camino is to some extent an economy in its own right, this suggests that people planning a Camino in a couple of years can expect some prices to stay reasonably stable.
 
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