- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2016 Primitivo
2018 Pimitivo, VdlP
2022 Too Many
Remove ads on the forum by becoming a donating member. More here. |
---|
That's the most important variable.cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33
€544.98 × 0.001 ~ €0.55The price of electricity in Spain's wholesale market has been set at €544.98 per megawatt hour for Tuesday March 8th 2022
I respect your point of view and disagree with you wholeheartedly. The only qualification for a compostella is the minimum distance and a suitable motivation. Even the latter criterion has been somewhat broadened in recent years.Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!
No rules I'm aware of, I believe one could ride in a sedan chair...Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!
Your math is good. Local electricity rates may vary.I've seen a few threads where the idea of charging the e-bike battery while enjoying lunch at a restaurant, a coffee shop or Taberna, and concurrently how much to offer for a full charge at an Albergue, is floated. I use an e-Bike regularly for day trips at home and need to avail of this help occasionally
I'm both looking for opinions and giving a reasoned opinion. I have seen suggestions on this and other forums ranging from the entitled stingy "I pay for a coffee, so I can plug in my monster power pack for 2 hours" to the royally generous of €5 for a lunch time charge. some campsites in Frances charge €2 for an overnight charge irrespective of the size of the powerbank.
I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.
I'll vary this with the cost of electricity, and I'm paying for the service of having a plug available to me more than the cost of power. I'm justifying the lunch v overnight difference with the imposition on the owner of the business: There often is a plug for every bed (more or less, and bring multiplug to leave 1 or more sockets for other pilgrims use while I hog it) while a restaurant/cafe may only have 1 or 2 outlets in the room open to the public and the battery/charger setup will be an imposition
My reasoning is the following:
As a reference I'll use the system I'm familiar: The Bosch e-bike system, I won't research the other popular ones (Yamaha, Bionx, Bafang, ...) as the numbers will be similar.
please note I'm not an engineer, and am happy to be corrected. These are approximations that - I think - are accurate enough for the purpose
charging efficiency 74% (found on ebike forum, though from experience with other devices not far off)
theoretical Power output : 36V x 4A = 144W
applying efficiency factor : 144W*100/74 = 195W
cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33
Cost per hour of charging : 0.33 *0.195 = €0.065
Full charging time from 0% to 100% for a
500Wh battery : 4.5h , cost = €0.29
1250Wh battery : 9.8h, cost = €0.63
Using a 4A charger (there are 2A and 6A chargers out there, the reasoning will be the same though the cost/time will vary)
This is another thing to consider, over and above the consumer cost per kwh. What we don't know is roughly how much per month users have to pay - which was the point of the OP. Unless someone like @Rebekah Scott chimes in, you'll just have to guess, @Xali1970, adding that to current kwh costs. Being generous and paying it forward is always a good idea.Electricity, especially in Spain is the single most taxed commodity.
It's amazing what having one's femur shattered in an accident does to one's ability to walk with a pack or cycle unassisted.Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!
Always offer to pay for charging an e-bike battery.
Electricity, especially in Spain is the single most taxed commodity. The price increased by several orders of magnitude this past winter.
very helpful, thank youThis is an interesting site.
Precio de la tarifa de luz por horas HOY | 07 Septiembre 2024 ✅
Comprueba aquí el Precio actual de la Luz | Precios máximos y mínimos de la luz a lo largo del día, con y sin Discriminación Horaria del día que quierastarifaluzhora.es
Xali very helpful post for me. As you know I am planning on riding Camino/side roads in June and have been trying to work out distances, came to the conclusion that at least 3 days I will need to take a long lunch and offer a few euros for charging. Thanks for the detailed postI've seen a few threads where the idea of charging the e-bike battery while enjoying lunch at a restaurant, a coffee shop or Taberna, and concurrently how much to offer for a full charge at an Albergue, is floated. I use an e-Bike regularly for day trips at home and need to avail of this help occasionally
I'm both looking for opinions and giving a reasoned opinion. I have seen suggestions on this and other forums ranging from the entitled stingy "I pay for a coffee, so I can plug in my monster power pack for 2 hours" to the royally generous of €5 for a lunch time charge. some campsites in Frances charge €2 for an overnight charge irrespective of the size of the powerbank.
I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.
I'll vary this with the cost of electricity, and I'm paying for the service of having a plug available to me more than the cost of power. I'm justifying the lunch v overnight difference with the imposition on the owner of the business: There often is a plug for every bed (more or less, and bring multiplug to leave 1 or more sockets for other pilgrims use while I hog it) while a restaurant/cafe may only have 1 or 2 outlets in the room open to the public and the battery/charger setup will be an imposition
My reasoning is the following:
As a reference I'll use the system I'm familiar: The Bosch e-bike system, I won't research the other popular ones (Yamaha, Bionx, Bafang, ...) as the numbers will be similar.
please note I'm not an engineer, and am happy to be corrected. These are approximations that - I think - are accurate enough for the purpose
charging efficiency 74% (found on ebike forum, though from experience with other devices not far off)
theoretical Power output : 36V x 4A = 144W
applying efficiency factor : 144W*100/74 = 195W
cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33
Cost per hour of charging : 0.33 *0.195 = €0.065
Full charging time from 0% to 100% for a
500Wh battery : 4.5h , cost = €0.29
1250Wh battery : 9.8h, cost = €0.63
Using a 4A charger (there are 2A and 6A chargers out there, the reasoning will be the same though the cost/time will vary)
You are most welcome.Xali very helpful post for me. As you know I am planning on riding Camino/side roads in June and have been trying to work out distances, came to the conclusion that at least 3 days I will need to take a long lunch and offer a few euros for charging. Thanks for the detailed post
very helpful, thank you
The issue of an e-bike being accepted as a ‘bicycle’ for Compostela purposes has been addressed several times before. The bottom line is that any bicycle type conveyance that REQUIRES you to pedal is acceptable. To be required to propel yourself forward is ‘Compostela legal.’
Thus, an electric-assist bicycle that uses a torque sensor to decide when you need the assistance of the auxiliary electric motor is acceptable. However, any electronic bicycle or similar conveyance that can operate in electric-only, throttle controlled mode is NOT legal.
As I understand things on the e-bike market in Europe, a Type I e-bike is ‘legal.’ Type II and Type III e-bikes are not - at least for Compostela purposes. Of course, I am not absolutely up to date on e-bike developments. But the basic premise remains: if you must pedal to move, you are okay. If pedaling is optional as long as the battery has charge, it is not okay.
I have seen security guards at the Pilgrim Office do a quick assessment of arriving e-bikes. I have not yet seen them turn anyone away.
Hope this helps.
Tom
I think the offer will be a surprise to most.I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.
For what it's worth: I rented a piso in Burgos February, March, April. Electric bills were €50,00 & €50,38 & €56,98. I kept the bills, but I don't know where they are now, else I'd tell you whether the cost is close to your estimate. But that covered three months of electric cooking, microwave, refrigerator, laundry, and heat.cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33
My friend and I are e-biking the plata this September. The use of e-bikes makes the journey possible due to time and health restrictions. I’m not going for the compostella and getting them has never been my motivation (I’ve walked 5 Caminos since 2003). Perhaps the desire to get the certificate is one of the main factors that has caused the Camino to lose a bit of its authenticity over the years… Especially the last 100k.Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!
They aren't really "motorized" vehicles. If you're not peddling...it aint' moving. They are NOT motorcycles. I know. I rode from the north of France last year all the way to Seville on an eBike. The assist provided, and that's all it is, allowed us to carry camping equipment and a small amount of cooking gear. This also allowed us to generally not overtax the camino infrastructure. (and YES we had bells and rang them constantly....to the point I actually broke the one on. my bike!). Electric assist allowed us to manage one particular day in Basque Country with 28km of nonstop climbing. Sorry, but at 65 I'm not sure I could have done it without the assist. We were sometimes charged for battery recharging and always offered to pay something to defray the cost.Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!
I would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??I've seen a few threads where the idea of charging the e-bike battery while enjoying lunch at a restaurant, a coffee shop or Taberna, and concurrently how much to offer for a full charge at an Albergue, is floated. I use an e-Bike regularly for day trips at home and need to avail of this help occasionally
I'm both looking for opinions and giving a reasoned opinion. I have seen suggestions on this and other forums ranging from the entitled stingy "I pay for a coffee, so I can plug in my monster power pack for 2 hours" to the royally generous of €5 for a lunch time charge. some campsites in Frances charge €2 for an overnight charge irrespective of the size of the powerbank.
I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.
I'll vary this with the cost of electricity, and I'm paying for the service of having a plug available to me more than the cost of power. I'm justifying the lunch v overnight difference with the imposition on the owner of the business: There often is a plug for every bed (more or less, and bring multiplug to leave 1 or more sockets for other pilgrims use while I hog it) while a restaurant/cafe may only have 1 or 2 outlets in the room open to the public and the battery/charger setup will be an imposition
My reasoning is the following:
As a reference I'll use the system I'm familiar: The Bosch e-bike system, I won't research the other popular ones (Yamaha, Bionx, Bafang, ...) as the numbers will be similar.
please note I'm not an engineer, and am happy to be corrected. These are approximations that - I think - are accurate enough for the purpose
charging efficiency 74% (found on ebike forum, though from experience with other devices not far off)
theoretical Power output : 36V x 4A = 144W
applying efficiency factor : 144W*100/74 = 195W
cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33
Cost per hour of charging : 0.33 *0.195 = €0.065
Full charging time from 0% to 100% for a
500Wh battery : 4.5h , cost = €0.29
1250Wh battery : 9.8h, cost = €0.63
Using a 4A charger (there are 2A and 6A chargers out there, the reasoning will be the same though the cost/time will vary)
Have you ever ridden an e-bike? I definitely wouldn’t say it’s the same as being ‘transferred’ lol.I would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??
I would say - yes, absolutely consider what the (let's' say Café's Owners expenses would be for the Hard Cost of electricity)..
I would rather suggest that you also consider the VALUE to YOU. --
1) to be able to change YOUR E-Bike...
2) To NOT have the Anxiety of running out of a Charge- or
3) ACTUALLY having to "ride a bike the Old-Fashioned way.... with NO PEDAL ASSIST.--
----WHAT is that WORTH to YOU?-
I bet THAT Peace of Mind is worth more than 1 or 2 Euros to you - correct?
WHY not pay 8 Euros? That is the expense to transfer luggage. You are being TRANSFERRED- to the next location too- correct...?? Granted you are riding a BIKE-- but if you expect to do it with PEDAL ASSIST.. Please pay a FAIR fee. If you rented an E-Bike- You can afford 8 euros daily. If you brought your own e-bike. You can still afford 8 euros.
Please Pay the Cafe owner or whoever you charge from a FAIR FEE. If the owner feels like they are getting a FAIR FEE- they will be more likely to assist FUTURE pilgrim's.
Most likely- I'm just gonna guess You are from a #FirstWorldCountry
We are in someone else country/homeland/land of their ancestors' Please respect that...and Pay a Fair Fee-
We won’t be charging them to full capacity as it’d take too long probably just an hour or so.
Both the hire company and the manufacturer state that 80% can be reached in 2 hours. We’ll probably only need a top up so I’m thinking 60-90 minutes tops. Will be hot at that time of day anyway so good opportunity to get some shade for a whileAre they 2A chargers (standard) or 4A chargers (fast)? It may take longer than you think but assume you have had advice from the hire company?
You seem to imply that offering to pay 3 times the cost of the electricity he actually uses is not a fair fee. What he can afford is surely irrelevant. Should we offer to pay for charging our iPhones? I think the whole point of Xali’s post was that he wanted to be fair.I would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??
I would say - yes, absolutely consider what the (let's' say Café's Owners expenses would be for the Hard Cost of electricity)..
I would rather suggest that you also consider the VALUE to YOU. --
1) to be able to change YOUR E-Bike...
2) To NOT have the Anxiety of running out of a Charge- or
3) ACTUALLY having to "ride a bike the Old-Fashioned way.... with NO PEDAL ASSIST.--
----WHAT is that WORTH to YOU?-
I bet THAT Peace of Mind is worth more than 1 or 2 Euros to you - correct?
WHY not pay 8 Euros? That is the expense to transfer luggage. You are being TRANSFERRED- to the next location too- correct...?? Granted you are riding a BIKE-- but if you expect to do it with PEDAL ASSIST.. Please pay a FAIR fee. If you rented an E-Bike- You can afford 8 euros daily. If you brought your own e-bike. You can still afford 8 euros.
Please Pay the Cafe owner or whoever you charge from a FAIR FEE. If the owner feels like they are getting a FAIR FEE- they will be more likely to assist FUTURE pilgrim's.
Most likely- I'm just gonna guess You are from a #FirstWorldCountry
We are in someone else country/homeland/land of their ancestors' Please respect that...and Pay a Fair Fee-
I’ll be sure to update this thread and share my learningsIt's a new area so it would be interesting to know the reactions of the cafe's to a) being asked to charge and b) not being asked charged.
The non e-Bike community share a lot of information about helpful cafes and local bike shops but not sure there is an e-Bike community yet. So information, as evidenced by the question, is in short supply.
Finding an e-bike charging station: keep your e-bike fully functional
Where is the nearest e-bike charging station when the battery runs out? We tell you which tools and apps you can use to find it! ▷ Read now!powunity.com
Is a +1500% ( €0.2966*0.195kW*1h = €0.06 - average pricing oct 2022) markup not a fair compensation for a one hour lunchtime top up? Very few products in a hotel/restaurant business - or in any business get that type of margin. Even at €1/kWh it's still a good markupI would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??
I would say - yes, absolutely consider what the (let's' say Café's Owners expenses would be for the Hard Cost of electricity)..
I would rather suggest that you also consider the VALUE to YOU. --
1) to be able to change YOUR E-Bike...
2) To NOT have the Anxiety of running out of a Charge- or
3) ACTUALLY having to "ride a bike the Old-Fashioned way.... with NO PEDAL ASSIST.--
----WHAT is that WORTH to YOU?-
I bet THAT Peace of Mind is worth more than 1 or 2 Euros to you - correct?
WHY not pay 8 Euros? That is the expense to transfer luggage. You are being TRANSFERRED- to the next location too- correct...?? Granted you are riding a BIKE-- but if you expect to do it with PEDAL ASSIST.. Please pay a FAIR fee. If you rented an E-Bike- You can afford 8 euros daily. If you brought your own e-bike. You can still afford 8 euros.
Please Pay the Cafe owner or whoever you charge from a FAIR FEE. If the owner feels like they are getting a FAIR FEE- they will be more likely to assist FUTURE pilgrim's.
Most likely- I'm just gonna guess You are from a #FirstWorldCountry
We are in someone else country/homeland/land of their ancestors' Please respect that...and Pay a Fair Fee-
Of course e-bike charging will be appreciated when it’s needed. Just as a coffee is appreciated and a hearty meal when we need it. Does that mean we should pay an amount based on how much we need something? So if I was just a little bit hungry and not really that much in need of my burger I’d pay like €3. But if I was absolutely starving and desperately in need of food I’d pay €30 for it?Umm.., Yes.. I own a Trek e-bike.
•The OP had said the primary reason for using an E-Bike on this trip was they had a “physically debilitating injury/IIRC lower leg injury-calf area?
•That made it nearly physically impossible for them to WALK the Camino-- so they were going the E-Bike route.
•Having an E-bike without a sufficient charge, riding uphill “without Pedal Assist… is gonna have the rider saying#{£€%#!!!+”
•It’s like driving a beautiful Duel engine Tesla—and running out of Gas/OP can’t physically ride and having ZERO ️Charge.
•Then you need to get towed, let’s add rain️ ️ into the scenario… and the point I was making was ….
The “price paid” isn’t just THE actual electricity expense to the cafe … BUT the VALUE to the E-bike rider…
•but the café’s generosity in LETTING you/them charge the E-bike-, maybe the cafe owner needs to get an extension cord, maybe other cafe clients need to wait while this is all happening …€1-2 euros doesn’t make it “worth it” for the Cafe owner/Albergue to assist.
•Why not pay something equal to the Baggage transfer fees..€8
•That makes it worthwhile for the Cafe owner (in this example)-You said you owned a Cafe.. would you refuse a “tip?”… all the extra tips add up -correct? Give generously-Pay 8€
•This is an experience/vacation … THiS is how the Cafe owner pays their bills, feeds their families, keeps their cafe open. They are “just making a meager living…. NOT become rich” Give generously-Pay 8€
•There are many Donitivo’s closing/shutting down… it’s stated because Pilgrims “just take, give the absolute minimum, leave 1€ only. Give generously-Pay 8€
•Makes the cafe owner open to helping future E-bike clients…Pay it forward as they say… Isn’t THAT a part of the Camino? Give generously-pay 8€.
•The cafe owner isn’t going to know that charging an e-bike is only 3 kilowatts…♀
•They might think it’s going to be much more expensive€€
AND in my example above— if the E-bike runs out/too low on a charge- and the Bike rider can’t “ride the old fashioned way-with no pedal assist”- they are going to wish they offered 8€ to charge/top up.
As the OP stated… they can’t WALK the Camino… do you think they can walk AND CARRY/PUSH their e-bike Give generously-pay 8€.
You might want to look at Efren’s YT- He took an E-bike on the Camino. His e-bike gets a range of 60 kms—there were definitely times he was like “ whoops! I’m down to 1 bar of charge…I hope I can find a place soon… .”
Give generously-Pay 8€
Ok…. You have done the “calculations”Is a +1500% ( €0.2966*0.195kW*1h = €0.06 - average pricing oct 2022) markup not a fair compensation for a one hour lunchtime top up? Very few products in a hotel/restaurant business - or in any business get that type of margin. Even at €1/kWh it's still a good markup
If the cafe owner thinks it isn't a fair offer he's free to refuse me or make a counteroffer.
In the end the main point is to ask for permission and abide by the answer
@Corned Beef-It's a new area so it would be interesting to know the reactions of the cafe's to a) being asked to charge and b) not being asked charged.
The non e-Bike community share a lot of information about helpful cafes and local bike shops but not sure there is an e-Bike community yet. So information, as evidenced by the question, is in short supply.
Finding an e-bike charging station: keep your e-bike fully functional
Where is the nearest e-bike charging station when the battery runs out? We tell you which tools and apps you can use to find it! ▷ Read now!powunity.com
How about we haggle? Would you accept €6.50?@Corned Beef-
Thank you for sharing such an informative article.
The company that wrote the article is located in Austria.
“Austria is a very bikefriendly country”- and they are having difficulty times locating E-bike charging stations… in a populous city.
•Can you imagine how much more difficult it would be to find an E-Bike charging location set up on The Camino
•Again… the VALUE of being able to charge an E-bike at a cafe, while eating Lunch for example— gets the Biker fed and the bike charged… it is saving time… the bike is safe….{these E-bikes cost about 1,000€}
There is definitely VALUE in that… not just 1€ for the cafe owners.
-Yup…. Give generously -Pay 8€ to charge your E-bike
I was trying to say that the OP was probably from a 1st world country and had no empathy for the cafe owner, who is probably not as financially stable as the OP.. the cafe owner works long hours, maybe 6 days a week- and probably makes a meager profit…You seem to imply that offering to pay 3 times the cost of the electricity he actually uses is not a fair fee. What he can afford is surely irrelevant. Should we offer to pay for charging our iPhones? I think the whole point of Xali’s post was that he wanted to be fair.
And incidentally, Spain is also a First-world-Country.
€6.50 seems generous…How about we haggle? Would you accept €6.50?
I think most pilgrims are generous if they can be. And most cafe owners appreciate the extra business. But at the end of the day people will be who they will be and no amount of debate here will change that. We are each on our own Camino and we will, rightly so, make our own choices€6.50 seems generous…
That’s all I’m trying to say… Is be generous. These hotel and cafe owners are adding to “our Camino experience too”
The cafe owner may say….”it’s too much.. and only accept €3-5 euros… Let the cafe owner decide”- with it any undue pressures.
I’m just saying…. A lot of these small cafes are family run…. The cafes provide a lot of very welcomed services.
There are a few “pop up cafes” —just when Pilgrims need some water or a hard boiled egg…
I’m trying to not look at the fact that the Cafe owner has chickens… therefore his “per egg cost is lower than if he bought the egg in a store”- behind the scenes- the cafe owner needs to get up early every morning and tend to his chickens, feed them, gathers eggs, cooks the eggs- because he knows Pilgrim's appreciate hard boiled eggs on their journey..
I’m saying —pay generously - maybe that egg cost him .05 cents— do we only pay .05 cents? He should surely get paid for his time to gather the eggs, cooking the eggs, etc…
I’m saying have some empathy and thoughts for these many individuals that support many pilgrims on their journeys- and for many people … THIS Camino is a once in a lifetime journey -an experience of self fulfillment-of meeting and connecting with people…
These cafe owners need our generous support… or they can’t afford to be on the roadside next year… and with estimates of 500,000 people next year… I want to still see little albergues, family run cafes, enterprising Locales —I don’t want to see {Gasp} Starbucks.
Agreed …I think most pilgrims are generous if they can be. And most cafe owners appreciate the extra business. But at the end of the day people will be who they will be and no amount of debate here will change that. We are each on our own Camino and we will, rightly so, make our own choices
True...don't remember encountering anyone else on ebikes when we rode the Frances or the VdlP.It's a new area so it would be interesting to know the reactions of the cafe's to a) being asked to charge and b) not being asked charged.
The non e-Bike community share a lot of information about helpful cafes and local bike shops but not sure there is an e-Bike community yet. So information, as evidenced by the question, is in short supply.
Finding an e-bike charging station: keep your e-bike fully functional
Where is the nearest e-bike charging station when the battery runs out? We tell you which tools and apps you can use to find it! ▷ Read now!powunity.com
Those cafes are not intended to be donativos!. If the cyclist can afford to have an e-bike, they can surely afford the real cost of charging.maybe treat the use of the cafe power like when you stay at a donativo alberque, pay what you can afford or what you think is a meaningful contribution.
Admission, I have not read all the above posts, no time.
But maybe treat the use of the cafe power like when you stay at a donativo alberque, pay what you can afford or what you think is a meaningful contribution.
To put things in perspective...Ok…. You have done the “calculations”
1) You calculated “last years rate of electricity”-
2) in addition to the Base rate of electricity… the rates go up in scheduled tiers based on total usage… and at each Tier level -the actual costs of kilowatt increases.
He owns an eBike, which means he likely has disposable income, and thus can be more generous in the spirit of God’s grace or hold onto material things. And you’re right, it’s his choice.Admission, I have not read all the above posts, no time.
But maybe treat the use of the cafe power like when you stay at a donativo alberque, pay what you can afford or what you think is a meaningful contribution.
In the US, men tip more generously than women. That’s one of the reasons why I like to tip generously, in order to help overcome that generalization, besides rewarding excellent service.I was trying to say that the OP was probably from a 1st world country and had no empathy for the cafe owner, who is probably not as financially stable as the OP.. the cafe owner works long hours, maybe 6 days a week- and probably makes a meager profit…
As I look at the responses.. I’ll make a general statement…”men typically tip less than women”- I’m trying to get the OP past the hard nuts and bolts of the math of how much a kilowatt costs… but to look further and see the cafe owner as a person… a worthy person who is trying very hard to make a living under difficult circumstances. Maybe 8€ is absolutely ridiculous—the OP stated they didn’t have anything to measure against— I suggest the “daily luggage transfer fee-8€”… if they offer the Cafe owner 8€ and the owner says… no.., just a few Euros €2-€5 is good… everyone is happy… the bike rider and the cafe owners. I’m just saying … think of the cafe owners, have a little empathy, respect all they do, make their day a little easier, smile and tip generously-You will feel good too
Country | Cost per charge (USD) | Cost per charge in local currency | Cost per year (USD) | Cost per year in local currency |
Austria | $0.09 | €0.07 | $37.46 | €32.57 |
Belgium | $0.10 | €0.09 | $45.60 | €39.09 |
Brazil | $0.05 | R$0.26 | $21.17 | R$114.00 |
Canada | $0.04 | $0.06 | $17.92 | $24.43 |
China | $0.03 | ¥0.20 | $13.03 | ¥87.95 |
Colombia | $0.07 | $255.20 | $29.32 | $111,012.99 |
Finland | $0.06 | €0.05 | $27.69 | €22.80 |
France | $0.07 | €0.06 | $30.94 | €26.06 |
Germany | $0.12 | €0.10 | $53.75 | €45.60 |
India | $0.03 | ₹2.20 | $13.03 | ₹957.64 |
Indonesia | $0.04 | Rp555 | $16.29 | Rp241,312 |
Italy | $0.10 | €0.09 | $43.97 | €37.46 |
Japan | $0.08 | ¥8.62 | $35.83 | ¥3,750.76 |
Netherlands | $0.07 | €0.06 | $29.32 | €24.43 |
New Zealand | $0.07 | $0.11 | $32.57 | $48.86 |
Poland | $0.06 | 0.23 zł | $26.06 | 99.35 zł |
Portugal | $0.10 | €0.08 | $42.34 | €35.83 |
South Africa | $0.03 | R0.57 | $14.66 | R245.92 |
South Korea | $0.04 | ₩52.37 | $19.54 | ₩22,781.42 |
Spain | $0.09 | €0.07 | $39.09 | €32.57 |
Sweden | $0.08 | 0.70 kr | $34.20 | 302.93 kr |
Turkey | $0.06 | ₺0.43 | $24.43 | ₺187.29 |
United Kingdom | $0.08 | £0.06 | $35.83 | £27.69 |
United States | $0.05 | $0.05 | $21.17 | $21.17 |
From a practical perspective, recharging your lithium battery puts a large demand on the albergue’s source electricity. Nearly all electric companies in developed countries charge a set price for a base amount of electricity. Whenever a property exceeds its base allotment, the property is charged higher rates for the additional usage. When a property uses far more additional electricity than the standard additional usage—for your lithium battery will put a big load on the albergue, then premium rates are charged. Your calculations do not factor in the additional and premium rate costs that your lithium battery will entail to the albergue.I've seen a few threads where the idea of charging the e-bike battery while enjoying lunch at a restaurant, a coffee shop or Taberna, and concurrently how much to offer for a full charge at an Albergue, is floated. I use an e-Bike regularly for day trips at home and need to avail of this help occasionally
I'm both looking for opinions and giving a reasoned opinion. I have seen suggestions on this and other forums ranging from the entitled stingy "I pay for a coffee, so I can plug in my monster power pack for 2 hours" to the royally generous of €5 for a lunch time charge. some campsites in Frances charge €2 for an overnight charge irrespective of the size of the powerbank.
I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.
I'll vary this with the cost of electricity, and I'm paying for the service of having a plug available to me more than the cost of power. I'm justifying the lunch v overnight difference with the imposition on the owner of the business: There often is a plug for every bed (more or less, and bring multiplug to leave 1 or more sockets for other pilgrims use while I hog it) while a restaurant/cafe may only have 1 or 2 outlets in the room open to the public and the battery/charger setup will be an imposition
My reasoning is the following:
As a reference I'll use the system I'm familiar: The Bosch e-bike system, I won't research the other popular ones (Yamaha, Bionx, Bafang, ...) as the numbers will be similar.
please note I'm not an engineer, and am happy to be corrected. These are approximations that - I think - are accurate enough for the purpose
charging efficiency 74% (found on ebike forum, though from experience with other devices not far off)
theoretical Power output : 36V x 4A = 144W
applying efficiency factor : 144W*100/74 = 195W
cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33
Cost per hour of charging : 0.33 *0.195 = €0.065
Full charging time from 0% to 100% for a
500Wh battery : 4.5h , cost = €0.29
1250Wh battery : 9.8h, cost = €0.63
Using a 4A charger (there are 2A and 6A chargers out there, the reasoning will be the same though the cost/time will vary)
In the US, men tip more generously than women. That’s one of the reasons why I like to tip generously, in order to help overcome that generalization, besides rewarding excellent service.
It's amazing what having one's femur shattered in an accident does to one's ability to walk with a pack or cycle unassisted.
We all have reasons driving our choices, and they're not always pleasant
Okay, and thanks. Much depends on the lithium battery’s voltage and amperage. Also, averages can be so misleading. In my state, which is the most populous state and has the most eBikes in the US, the average cost to recharge an eBike is triple what your table shows.Below is a table showing the average cost to change an electric bike in 24 countries. This information was correct as of January 2023.
As you can see it costs approximately €0.09 in Spain to charge an electric bike.
Let’s say this information is incorrect and it costs 3 x as much (an impossible scenario but useful for comparison) so it costs €0.27.
Let’s give 5 x that much in payment and pay €1.35. Most would give at least this and many probably more. Any person in business would be more than happy with such a mark up.
CountryCost per charge (USD) Cost per charge in local currency Cost per year (USD) Cost per year in local currency Austria $0.09 €0.07 $37.46 €32.57 Belgium $0.10 €0.09 $45.60 €39.09 Brazil $0.05 R$0.26 $21.17 R$114.00 Canada $0.04 $0.06 $17.92 $24.43 China $0.03 ¥0.20 $13.03 ¥87.95 Colombia $0.07 $255.20 $29.32 $111,012.99 Finland $0.06 €0.05 $27.69 €22.80 France $0.07 €0.06 $30.94 €26.06 Germany $0.12 €0.10 $53.75 €45.60 India $0.03 ₹2.20 $13.03 ₹957.64 Indonesia $0.04 Rp555 $16.29 Rp241,312 Italy $0.10 €0.09 $43.97 €37.46 Japan $0.08 ¥8.62 $35.83 ¥3,750.76 Netherlands $0.07 €0.06 $29.32 €24.43 New Zealand $0.07 $0.11 $32.57 $48.86 Poland $0.06 0.23 zł $26.06 99.35 zł Portugal $0.10 €0.08 $42.34 €35.83 South Africa $0.03 R0.57 $14.66 R245.92 South Korea $0.04 ₩52.37 $19.54 ₩22,781.42 Spain $0.09 €0.07 $39.09 €32.57 Sweden $0.08 0.70 kr $34.20 302.93 kr Turkey $0.06 ₺0.43 $24.43 ₺187.29 United Kingdom $0.08 £0.06 $35.83 £27.69 United States $0.05 $0.05 $21.17 $21.17
I don't see how you can draw this conclusion about the OP's empathy. He posted here to ask the very question about what would be fair to the cafe owner.I was trying to say that the OP was probably from a 1st world country and had no empathy for the cafe owner,
Appreciate the info. Righto, the US treats its wait staff far differently from many European countries. Don’t get me started on some restaurant’s insistence that all tips be shared among the entire wait staff. I have never been in the service industry, and this practice of sharing tips is what a hostess and some waiters told me. While I have visited several European countries, my pilgrimage will be my first visit to Portugal and Spain. What are the customs on tipping?Aside from the topic of charging of e-bikes I want to inform you that in Europe waiters have a better and more steady income than their USA colleagues.Yes, we also tip here but in a lesser degree and only when the service is exceptionally good. Otherwise we will leave the coins that we are given as change.
Example ; today three of us had lunch and some coffees. Total of 58.10. Gave 60. Change was for waiter.
Usually just round up the change. Most waiting staff won't expect a big tip. If I buy a small beer and the cost is €1.90 I might pay €2. But if I didn't think the service was good I might not leave a tip at all.Appreciate the info. Righto, the US treats its wait staff far differently from many European countries. Don’t get me started on some restaurant’s insistence that all tips be shared among the entire wait staff. I have never been in the service industry, and this practice of sharing tips is what a hostess and some waiters told me. While I have visited several European countries, my pilgrimage will be my first visit to Portugal and Spain. What are the customs on tipping?
Appreciate the info. Righto, the US treats its wait staff far differently from many European countries. Don’t get me started on some restaurant’s insistence that all tips be shared among the entire wait staff. I have never been in the service industry, and this practice of sharing tips is what a hostess and some waiters told me. While I have visited several European countries, my pilgrimage will be my first visit to Portugal and Spain. What are the customs on tipping?
Please let's not divert this thread into a discussion of tipping practices. That is another one of the topics that very quickly becomes contentious and leads to locking of the thread, as for example with these previous threads.
Yes, thank you. I was writing my post at the same time as you were writing yours, and only saw yours after I hit "Post."I just gave the new member some tips about searching for these threads.
Please go to https://www.iberdrola.es/en/electricity ... I found the information in English for you. Their translation is not the best, but then why should it be? At Business rates or household rates my assumptions hold. In a nutshell there's an annual standing charge based on a contracted power capacity tier, then a cost per kWh used that can vary with the time of day depending on the contract. The contracted capacity is defined by the maximum power load of the electrical installation. Yes a higher contracted capacity may entail a higher rate per kWh but not necessarily, and having gone through a few I haven't found a cost per kWh to the consumer/business exceeding €0.33 i used in my initial assumption. Feel free to go through all of them and prove me wrong.From a practical perspective, recharging your lithium battery puts a large demand on the albergue’s source electricity. Nearly all electric companies in developed countries charge a set price for a base amount of electricity. Whenever a property exceeds its base allotment, the property is charged higher rates for the additional usage. When a property uses far more additional electricity than the standard additional usage—for your lithium battery will put a big load on the albergue, then premium rates are charged. Your calculations do not factor in the additional and premium rate costs that your lithium battery will entail to the albergue.
Consider also that recharging your lithium battery entails a fire hazard. Do you really want to be responsible for burning down an albergue for pilgrims, rather than paying for electricity at an establishment that has the capital and insurance to rebuild?
Electricity bills have skyrocketed nearly everywhere, and are only going to continue to rise. You covering solely your calculated, and in all probability, faulty electricity cost used does not address the albergue’s overhead costs, nor the potential for fire hazards.
You're right there. My MTB cost €4000. I'd better start feeling guilty about only paying €2 for my coffee. Where does this end?Further, you owning an eBike, while not as expensive as any of my top of the line mountain bikes, means that you have some disposable income. You likely can afford to be more generous.
I would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??
I would say - yes, absolutely consider what the (let's' say Café's Owners expenses would be for the Hard Cost of electricity)..
I would rather suggest that you also consider the VALUE to YOU. --
1) to be able to change YOUR E-Bike...
2) To NOT have the Anxiety of running out of a Charge- or
3) ACTUALLY having to "ride a bike the Old-Fashioned way.... with NO PEDAL ASSIST.--
----WHAT is that WORTH to YOU?-
I bet THAT Peace of Mind is worth more than 1 or 2 Euros to you - correct?
WHY not pay 8 Euros? That is the expense to transfer luggage. You are being TRANSFERRED- to the next location too- correct...?? Granted you are riding a BIKE-- but if you expect to do it with PEDAL ASSIST.. Please pay a FAIR fee. If you rented an E-Bike- You can afford 8 euros daily. If you brought your own e-bike. You can still afford 8 euros.
Please Pay the Cafe owner or whoever you charge from a FAIR FEE. If the owner feels like they are getting a FAIR FEE- they will be more likely to assist FUTURE pilgrim's.
Most likely- I'm just gonna guess You are from a #FirstWorldCountry
We are in someone else country/homeland/land of their ancestors' Please respect that...and Pay a Fair Fe
Lot of shouting going on here. I think the OP got it about right. But if you disagree that's your entitlement. Just please calm down and disagree quietly. Please.Ok…. You have done the “calculations”
1) You calculated “last years rate of electricity”-
2) in addition to the Base rate of electricity… the rates go up in scheduled tiers based on total usage… and at each Tier level -the actual costs of kilowatt increases.
•But do you think the Cafe owner has done these same calculationsProbably not… all they see is
•Cafe owners are probably used to seeing Pilgrims plug in their “little tiny phones”…
NOW … they see an e-bike- it’s clearly “bigger than a phone…. And it will equate to costing more than charging just a cell phone.”
•You said “if the cafe owner thinks 1€ isn’t fair…he can make a counteroffer”…
•I’d say that is putting the cafe owner in an unfair position-it is putting an unfair amount of unnecessary “pressure on him… to get your business of one cup if coffee- he has to accept 1€ to charge your bike?”
•I’m gonna say… You know what I’m going to say
Give generously-Pay 8€
•Again… I’ll guess You are living quite well… compared to our Cafe owner who needs to try to smile and accommodate, try to scrape out a living serving Pilgrim's such as yourself.
•We clearly are not going to agree.
You want to pay “the absolute minimum -you have stated you feel 1€ is more than generous and you are only thinking about yourself.
I feel it’s more about taking care of the Cafe Owner first and offering to “give generously-and pay 8€”- pay it forward to help future Pilgrims on e-bikes.
•I’d say… yup… give generously-Pay 8€.
KARMA’s a “pain in the backside/”.. and Karma catches up surprisingly quick too.
Buen Camino.
Your remark is absolutely not relevant.Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!
Well they are allowed, and the Pilgrim's Office will issue a Compostela for pilgrims using certain types of e-bikes.Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!
The issue of an e-bike being accepted as a ‘bicycle’ for Compostela purposes has been addressed several times before. The bottom line is that any bicycle type conveyance that REQUIRES you to pedal is acceptable. To be required to propel yourself forward is ‘Compostela legal.’
Thus, an electric-assist bicycle that uses a torque sensor to decide when you need the assistance of the auxiliary electric motor is acceptable. However, any electronic bicycle or similar conveyance that can operate in electric-only, throttle controlled mode is NOT legal.
Bicycle riders must ride at least the final 200 km. Electric ASSIST bikes with NO THROTTLE are approved to qualify.
E-bikes with throttles, that can be ridden without pedaling are NOT approved for Camino use - at least if you want to qualify for the Compostela. The security guards are supposed to check this on arrival. I cannot state definitively whether they do or do not.
Me neither.I'm not sure I understand why there is so much resistance and uproar about being generous...
Why would you post an opinion on something you clearly haven't a clue about?I spoke to hospitaleros at a lovely donativo in Rabanal last year. They were struggling with this question--what to charge for e-bike charging when riders assumed they should pay nothing? When one considers most people on the CF take 35-ish days to walk it--that would translate to a pedestrian 15 days on a pedal bike or maybe 7-10 days on an e-bike. Surely e-bikers can pay a tiny fraction of the $ they save on albergues by doing a fast-track Camino on what is basically a semi-motorized zip? And for those saying an e-bike is not a motorized form of transport, puhleeeese. Of course it is. What would you expect to pay for a 7-10 day Camino? At least pay your way.
Sensu stricto, an e-bike is a motorcycle they should stay on pave roads and avoid using any albergue just as car drivers do.I spoke to hospitaleros at a lovely donativo in Rabanal last year. They were struggling with this question--what to charge for e-bike charging when riders assumed they should pay nothing? When one considers most people on the CF take 35-ish days to walk it--that would translate to a pedestrian 15 days on a pedal bike or maybe 7-10 days on an e-bike. Surely e-bikers can pay a tiny fraction of the $ they save on albergues by doing a fast-track Camino on what is basically a semi-motorized zip? And for those saying an e-bike is not a motorized form of transport, puhleeeese. Of course it is. What would you expect to pay for a 7-10 day Camino? At least pay your way.
Well, sensu stricto, the law disagrees with you, so your opinion counts for less than a few beans past their use by date.Sensu stricto, an e-bike is a motorcycle they should stay on pave roads and avoid using any albergue just as car drivers do.
Oh for heavens sake. How many times does it need to be explained? If you have to pedal, it's assistance. Not a motorcycle. Legitimate on tracks and qualifies for a Compostela.Sensu stricto, an e-bike is a motorcycle they should stay on pave roads and avoid using any albergue just as car drivers do.
I appreciate your comment that some Hospitalero's struggle to decide what they should charge, however as @Xali1970 addressed in his very first post it is actually not that hard to ascertain. And yes unfortunately there will always be a few entitled people who think they should have something for nothing. All too often I hear of well-off pilgrims paying next to nothing in a donativo for example.I spoke to hospitaleros at a lovely donativo in Rabanal last year. They were struggling with this question--what to charge for e-bike charging when riders assumed they should pay nothing? When one considers most people on the CF take 35-ish days to walk it--that would translate to a pedestrian 15 days on a pedal bike or maybe 7-10 days on an e-bike. Surely e-bikers can pay a tiny fraction of the $ they save on albergues by doing a fast-track Camino on what is basically a semi-motorized zip? And for those saying an e-bike is not a motorized form of transport, puhleeeese. Of course it is. What would you expect to pay for a 7-10 day Camino? At least pay your way.
Maybe in Texas but not over here.Sensu stricto, an e-bike is a motorcycle
I understand where you're going, but if neither party know or have an idea of what the cost price of the service provided is, how can either of you know or deem what is fair?If it were me, I would therefore offer to pay what I thought the provider of the electricity would deem as fair, rather than what I thought the electricity was worth.
I guess we use our judgement, and what we 'deem' to be fair and reasonable. That may not be related directly to the cost of the service. Knowing the actual cost...just provides a minimum offer.I understand where you're going, but if neither party know or have an idea of what the cost price of the service provided is, how can either of you know or deem what is fair?
I understand where you're going, but if neither party know or have an idea of what the cost price of the service provided is, how can either of you know or deem what is fair?
My point from the get go...I think we can agree that one should pay for what one uses. The exact cost of electricity is variable and difficult to calculate so why not offer a euro or two and consider the balance as a gesture of goodwill?
I think you made up your mind from your original post tbh, and have been arguing the toss ever sinceMy point from the get go...
I wish people would actually read post #1...
Could this post be locked for further replies? I don't think there was much of value said on this for a good while.
I did, and asked for REASONED opinions - of which there were precious few - to be given in return or facts that might enlighten the discussion.I think you made up your mind from your original post tbh, and have been arguing the toss ever since
When you use the toilet facilities of a cafe you do not know the cost price or monetary value of this to the business owner....you make a donation (suggested by many to be €1 or a purchase. This Is fair and reasonable.I understand where you're going, but if neither party know or have an idea of what the cost price of the service provided is, how can either of you know or deem what is fair?
When you use the toilet facilities of a cafe you do not know the cost price or monetary value of this to the business owner....you make a donation (suggested by many to be €1 or a purchase. This Is fair and reasonable.
Fairness, generosity of spirit and appreciation for allowing the charging of an e-bike, in the absence of a set tariff, will vary from person to person and you cannot put a value to that...its priceless and not based on fact or "data".
What @Robo and @Simperegrina said.
Exactly! You cannot put a price to good manners and you cannot forensically cost it out.I would have thought basic manners and a modicum of "savoir vivre" dictate that you purchase something when using an establishment's facilities.
Times change I suppose.
But the solar panel isn'tIf all else fails, the sun is still free:
View attachment 168558
(Encountered on a camping in Switzerland)
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?