E-bike charging on the camino - Contributing to cost

[Xali1970]

I've seen a few threads where the idea of charging the e-bike battery while enjoying lunch at a restaurant, a coffee shop or Taberna, and concurrently how much to offer for a full charge at an Albergue, is floated. I use an e-Bike regularly for day trips at home and need to avail of this help occasionally

I'm both looking for opinions and giving a reasoned opinion. I have seen suggestions on this and other forums ranging from the entitled stingy "I pay for a coffee, so I can plug in my monster power pack for 2 hours" to the royally generous of €5 for a lunch time charge. some campsites in Frances charge €2 for an overnight charge irrespective of the size of the powerbank.

I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.

I'll vary this with the cost of electricity, and I'm paying for the service of having a plug available to me more than the cost of power. I'm justifying the lunch v overnight difference with the imposition on the owner of the business: There often is a plug for every bed (more or less, and bring multiplug to leave 1 or more sockets for other pilgrims use while I hog it) while a restaurant/cafe may only have 1 or 2 outlets in the room open to the public and the battery/charger setup will be an imposition


My reasoning is the following:


As a reference I'll use the system I'm familiar: The Bosch e-bike system, I won't research the other popular ones (Yamaha, Bionx, Bafang, ...) as the numbers will be similar.

please note I'm not an engineer, and am happy to be corrected. These are approximations that - I think - are accurate enough for the purpose

charging efficiency 74% (found on ebike forum, though from experience with other devices not far off)
theoretical Power output : 36V x 4A = 144W
applying efficiency factor : 144W*100/74 = 195W

cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33

Cost per hour of charging : 0.33 *0.195 = €0.065

Full charging time from 0% to 100% for a
500Wh battery : 4.5h , cost = €0.29
1250Wh battery : 9.8h, cost = €0.63
Using a 4A charger (there are 2A and 6A chargers out there, the reasoning will be the same though the cost/time will vary)

 

[VNwalking]

cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33

That's the most important variable.
This recent article said:

The price of electricity in Spain's wholesale market has been set at €544.98 per megawatt hour for Tuesday March 8th 2022

€544.98 × 0.001 ~ €0.55
That's wholesale, this week, which may well go up. And goodness knows what the cost will be to the consumer.

I'd say as a good rule of thumb...be as generous as you can afford to be, rather than just covering costs. Businesses are coming off 2 years of Covid oblivion, and who knows what is coming at us.

 

[t2andreo]

Always offer to pay for charging an e-bike battery.

Electricity, especially in Spain is the single most taxed commodity. The price increased by several orders of magnitude this past winter.

 

[globetrotter]

Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!

 

[henrythedog]

Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!

I respect your point of view and disagree with you wholeheartedly. The only qualification for a compostella is the minimum distance and a suitable motivation. Even the latter criterion has been somewhat broadened in recent years.

Let others do as they will and apply your own standards to yourself. (Not addressed to ‘you’ specifically) It’s only a made-up-by-Man indulgence at the end of the day. Should I ever get to meet him I’m fairly sure St Peter will not be asking to see the paperwork.

And..

(Sorry, I’m going on a bit, but University Challenge has just finished and there’s nothing worth watching on the telly)

Where would one draw the line? Wheelchairs OK, electric bikes not OK?

Horses? Luggage transport? Walking poles?

 

[peregrina2000]

A discussion of whether e-bikes should be on the Camino, or whether their riders should qualify for a compostela, is really off-topic, so let’s focus on the question raised.

 

[ken2116]

Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!

No rules I'm aware of, I believe one could ride in a sedan chair...

 

[ken2116]

I've seen a few threads where the idea of charging the e-bike battery while enjoying lunch at a restaurant, a coffee shop or Taberna, and concurrently how much to offer for a full charge at an Albergue, is floated. I use an e-Bike regularly for day trips at home and need to avail of this help occasionally

I'm both looking for opinions and giving a reasoned opinion. I have seen suggestions on this and other forums ranging from the entitled stingy "I pay for a coffee, so I can plug in my monster power pack for 2 hours" to the royally generous of €5 for a lunch time charge. some campsites in Frances charge €2 for an overnight charge irrespective of the size of the powerbank.

I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.

I'll vary this with the cost of electricity, and I'm paying for the service of having a plug available to me more than the cost of power. I'm justifying the lunch v overnight difference with the imposition on the owner of the business: There often is a plug for every bed (more or less, and bring multiplug to leave 1 or more sockets for other pilgrims use while I hog it) while a restaurant/cafe may only have 1 or 2 outlets in the room open to the public and the battery/charger setup will be an imposition


My reasoning is the following:


As a reference I'll use the system I'm familiar: The Bosch e-bike system, I won't research the other popular ones (Yamaha, Bionx, Bafang, ...) as the numbers will be similar.

please note I'm not an engineer, and am happy to be corrected. These are approximations that - I think - are accurate enough for the purpose

charging efficiency 74% (found on ebike forum, though from experience with other devices not far off)
theoretical Power output : 36V x 4A = 144W
applying efficiency factor : 144W*100/74 = 195W

cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33

Cost per hour of charging : 0.33 *0.195 = €0.065

Full charging time from 0% to 100% for a
500Wh battery : 4.5h , cost = €0.29
1250Wh battery : 9.8h, cost = €0.63
Using a 4A charger (there are 2A and 6A chargers out there, the reasoning will be the same though the cost/time will vary)

Your math is good. Local electricity rates may vary.

 

[VNwalking]

Electricity, especially in Spain is the single most taxed commodity.

This is another thing to consider, over and above the consumer cost per kwh. What we don't know is roughly how much per month users have to pay - which was the point of the OP. Unless someone like @Rebekah Scott chimes in, you'll just have to guess, @Xali1970, adding that to current kwh costs. Being generous and paying it forward is always a good idea.

 

[Xali1970]

Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!

It's amazing what having one's femur shattered in an accident does to one's ability to walk with a pack or cycle unassisted.

We all have reasons driving our choices, and they're not always pleasant

 

[SabsP]

Always offer to pay for charging an e-bike battery.

Electricity, especially in Spain is the single most taxed commodity. The price increased by several orders of magnitude this past winter.

This is an interesting site.

Precio de la tarifa de luz por horas HOY | 08 Noviembre 2024 ✅

Comprueba aquí el Precio actual de la Luz | Precios máximos y mínimos de la luz a lo largo del día, con y sin Discriminación Horaria del día que quieras

tarifaluzhora.es

 

[Xali1970]

This is an interesting site.

Precio de la tarifa de luz por horas HOY | 08 Noviembre 2024 ✅

Comprueba aquí el Precio actual de la Luz | Precios máximos y mínimos de la luz a lo largo del día, con y sin Discriminación Horaria del día que quieras

tarifaluzhora.es

very helpful, thank you

 

[senora1]

I've seen a few threads where the idea of charging the e-bike battery while enjoying lunch at a restaurant, a coffee shop or Taberna, and concurrently how much to offer for a full charge at an Albergue, is floated. I use an e-Bike regularly for day trips at home and need to avail of this help occasionally

I'm both looking for opinions and giving a reasoned opinion. I have seen suggestions on this and other forums ranging from the entitled stingy "I pay for a coffee, so I can plug in my monster power pack for 2 hours" to the royally generous of €5 for a lunch time charge. some campsites in Frances charge €2 for an overnight charge irrespective of the size of the powerbank.

I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.

I'll vary this with the cost of electricity, and I'm paying for the service of having a plug available to me more than the cost of power. I'm justifying the lunch v overnight difference with the imposition on the owner of the business: There often is a plug for every bed (more or less, and bring multiplug to leave 1 or more sockets for other pilgrims use while I hog it) while a restaurant/cafe may only have 1 or 2 outlets in the room open to the public and the battery/charger setup will be an imposition


My reasoning is the following:


As a reference I'll use the system I'm familiar: The Bosch e-bike system, I won't research the other popular ones (Yamaha, Bionx, Bafang, ...) as the numbers will be similar.

please note I'm not an engineer, and am happy to be corrected. These are approximations that - I think - are accurate enough for the purpose

charging efficiency 74% (found on ebike forum, though from experience with other devices not far off)
theoretical Power output : 36V x 4A = 144W
applying efficiency factor : 144W*100/74 = 195W

cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33

Cost per hour of charging : 0.33 *0.195 = €0.065

Full charging time from 0% to 100% for a
500Wh battery : 4.5h , cost = €0.29
1250Wh battery : 9.8h, cost = €0.63
Using a 4A charger (there are 2A and 6A chargers out there, the reasoning will be the same though the cost/time will vary)

Xali very helpful post for me. As you know I am planning on riding Camino/side roads in June and have been trying to work out distances, came to the conclusion that at least 3 days I will need to take a long lunch and offer a few euros for charging. Thanks for the detailed post

 

[Xali1970]

Xali very helpful post for me. As you know I am planning on riding Camino/side roads in June and have been trying to work out distances, came to the conclusion that at least 3 days I will need to take a long lunch and offer a few euros for charging. Thanks for the detailed post

You are most welcome.

 

[SabsP]

very helpful, thank you

That is what most of us try to be here on this forum!

Happy preparations!

 

[trecile]

Here's some information in a previous post from @t2andreo about which types of e-bikes qualify one to receive a Compostela.

The issue of an e-bike being accepted as a ‘bicycle’ for Compostela purposes has been addressed several times before. The bottom line is that any bicycle type conveyance that REQUIRES you to pedal is acceptable. To be required to propel yourself forward is ‘Compostela legal.’

Thus, an electric-assist bicycle that uses a torque sensor to decide when you need the assistance of the auxiliary electric motor is acceptable. However, any electronic bicycle or similar conveyance that can operate in electric-only, throttle controlled mode is NOT legal.

As I understand things on the e-bike market in Europe, a Type I e-bike is ‘legal.’ Type II and Type III e-bikes are not - at least for Compostela purposes. Of course, I am not absolutely up to date on e-bike developments. But the basic premise remains: if you must pedal to move, you are okay. If pedaling is optional as long as the battery has charge, it is not okay.

I have seen security guards at the Pilgrim Office do a quick assessment of arriving e-bikes. I have not yet seen them turn anyone away.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[Susan Peacock]

It is lovely that you are so considerate and I am sure the generous Spanish people will appreciate it. In addition to the electric cost I would suggest that you check ahead to be sure that your accommodations have enough outlets. Although they exist, my experience on many Camino's is that most albergues do not have outlets for every bed and often there are only a couple in the entire room. I am assuming you will also be needing to charge a phone. Getting everyone charged sometimes takes sharing and cooperation. I take a multi-usb adapter so that 4 devices can charge at one time; accommodating multiple pilgrims. I'm guessing an e-bike doesn't use usb.

 

[t2andreo]

I carry a 2 or 3-way “cube tap” to expand a single outlet into 2 or three outlets so I can share one outlet. My iPhone charger also has 2 USB plugs -again - to share. The slight extra weight is offset by other’s appreciation.

You can buy these plug expanders in any China store, Oriental Bazar, or hardware store (Ferreteria). The two round-pin Euro standard “Schuko” plug is the plug format used in Spain.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[WGroleau]

I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.

I think the offer will be a surprise to most.

cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33

For what it's worth: I rented a piso in Burgos February, March, April. Electric bills were €50,00 & €50,38 & €56,98. I kept the bills, but I don't know where they are now, else I'd tell you whether the cost is close to your estimate. But that covered three months of electric cooking, microwave, refrigerator, laundry, and heat.

 

[dangif123]

Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!

My friend and I are e-biking the plata this September. The use of e-bikes makes the journey possible due to time and health restrictions. I’m not going for the compostella and getting them has never been my motivation (I’ve walked 5 Caminos since 2003). Perhaps the desire to get the certificate is one of the main factors that has caused the Camino to lose a bit of its authenticity over the years… Especially the last 100k.

 

[ksam]

Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!

They aren't really "motorized" vehicles. If you're not peddling...it aint' moving. They are NOT motorcycles. I know. I rode from the north of France last year all the way to Seville on an eBike. The assist provided, and that's all it is, allowed us to carry camping equipment and a small amount of cooking gear. This also allowed us to generally not overtax the camino infrastructure. (and YES we had bells and rang them constantly....to the point I actually broke the one on. my bike!). Electric assist allowed us to manage one particular day in Basque Country with 28km of nonstop climbing. Sorry, but at 65 I'm not sure I could have done it without the assist. We were sometimes charged for battery recharging and always offered to pay something to defray the cost.

 

[SFHoneybee]

I've seen a few threads where the idea of charging the e-bike battery while enjoying lunch at a restaurant, a coffee shop or Taberna, and concurrently how much to offer for a full charge at an Albergue, is floated. I use an e-Bike regularly for day trips at home and need to avail of this help occasionally

I'm both looking for opinions and giving a reasoned opinion. I have seen suggestions on this and other forums ranging from the entitled stingy "I pay for a coffee, so I can plug in my monster power pack for 2 hours" to the royally generous of €5 for a lunch time charge. some campsites in Frances charge €2 for an overnight charge irrespective of the size of the powerbank.

I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.

I'll vary this with the cost of electricity, and I'm paying for the service of having a plug available to me more than the cost of power. I'm justifying the lunch v overnight difference with the imposition on the owner of the business: There often is a plug for every bed (more or less, and bring multiplug to leave 1 or more sockets for other pilgrims use while I hog it) while a restaurant/cafe may only have 1 or 2 outlets in the room open to the public and the battery/charger setup will be an imposition


My reasoning is the following:


As a reference I'll use the system I'm familiar: The Bosch e-bike system, I won't research the other popular ones (Yamaha, Bionx, Bafang, ...) as the numbers will be similar.

please note I'm not an engineer, and am happy to be corrected. These are approximations that - I think - are accurate enough for the purpose

charging efficiency 74% (found on ebike forum, though from experience with other devices not far off)
theoretical Power output : 36V x 4A = 144W
applying efficiency factor : 144W*100/74 = 195W

cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33

Cost per hour of charging : 0.33 *0.195 = €0.065

Full charging time from 0% to 100% for a
500Wh battery : 4.5h , cost = €0.29
1250Wh battery : 9.8h, cost = €0.63
Using a 4A charger (there are 2A and 6A chargers out there, the reasoning will be the same though the cost/time will vary)

I would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??

I would say - yes, absolutely consider what the (let's' say Café's Owners expenses would be for the Hard Cost of electricity)..

I would rather suggest that you also consider the VALUE to YOU. --
1) to be able to change YOUR E-Bike...
2) To NOT have the Anxiety of running out of a Charge- or
3) ACTUALLY having to "ride a bike the Old-Fashioned way.... with NO PEDAL ASSIST.--
----WHAT is that WORTH to YOU?-

I bet THAT Peace of Mind is worth more than 1 or 2 Euros to you - correct?

WHY not pay 8 Euros? That is the expense to transfer luggage. You are being TRANSFERRED- to the next location too- correct...?? Granted you are riding a BIKE-- but if you expect to do it with PEDAL ASSIST.. Please pay a FAIR fee. If you rented an E-Bike- You can afford 8 euros daily. If you brought your own e-bike. You can still afford 8 euros.

Please Pay the Cafe owner or whoever you charge from a FAIR FEE. If the owner feels like they are getting a FAIR FEE- they will be more likely to assist FUTURE pilgrim's.

Most likely- I'm just gonna guess You are from a #FirstWorldCountry

We are in someone else country/homeland/land of their ancestors' Please respect that...and Pay a Fair Fee-

 

[dangif123]

I would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??

I would say - yes, absolutely consider what the (let's' say Café's Owners expenses would be for the Hard Cost of electricity)..

I would rather suggest that you also consider the VALUE to YOU. --
1) to be able to change YOUR E-Bike...
2) To NOT have the Anxiety of running out of a Charge- or
3) ACTUALLY having to "ride a bike the Old-Fashioned way.... with NO PEDAL ASSIST.--
----WHAT is that WORTH to YOU?-

I bet THAT Peace of Mind is worth more than 1 or 2 Euros to you - correct?

WHY not pay 8 Euros? That is the expense to transfer luggage. You are being TRANSFERRED- to the next location too- correct...?? Granted you are riding a BIKE-- but if you expect to do it with PEDAL ASSIST.. Please pay a FAIR fee. If you rented an E-Bike- You can afford 8 euros daily. If you brought your own e-bike. You can still afford 8 euros.

Please Pay the Cafe owner or whoever you charge from a FAIR FEE. If the owner feels like they are getting a FAIR FEE- they will be more likely to assist FUTURE pilgrim's.

Most likely- I'm just gonna guess You are from a #FirstWorldCountry

We are in someone else country/homeland/land of their ancestors' Please respect that...and Pay a Fair Fee-

Have you ever ridden an e-bike? I definitely wouldn’t say it’s the same as being ‘transferred’ lol.

I was thinking €5 would be a good offer when we charge our 2 batteries at a cafe / restaurant. We won’t be charging them to full capacity as it’d take too long probably just an hour or so. I used to own a cafe and putting myself in the situation I doubt I would ask for anything but if I did then 5 would more than make up for it.

 

[Corned Beef]

We won’t be charging them to full capacity as it’d take too long probably just an hour or so.

Are they 2A chargers (standard) or 4A chargers (fast)? It may take longer than you think but assume you have had advice from the hire company?

 

[dangif123]

Are they 2A chargers (standard) or 4A chargers (fast)? It may take longer than you think but assume you have had advice from the hire company?

Both the hire company and the manufacturer state that 80% can be reached in 2 hours. We’ll probably only need a top up so I’m thinking 60-90 minutes tops. Will be hot at that time of day anyway so good opportunity to get some shade for a while

 

[Peregrinopaul]

I would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??

I would say - yes, absolutely consider what the (let's' say Café's Owners expenses would be for the Hard Cost of electricity)..

I would rather suggest that you also consider the VALUE to YOU. --
1) to be able to change YOUR E-Bike...
2) To NOT have the Anxiety of running out of a Charge- or
3) ACTUALLY having to "ride a bike the Old-Fashioned way.... with NO PEDAL ASSIST.--
----WHAT is that WORTH to YOU?-

I bet THAT Peace of Mind is worth more than 1 or 2 Euros to you - correct?

WHY not pay 8 Euros? That is the expense to transfer luggage. You are being TRANSFERRED- to the next location too- correct...?? Granted you are riding a BIKE-- but if you expect to do it with PEDAL ASSIST.. Please pay a FAIR fee. If you rented an E-Bike- You can afford 8 euros daily. If you brought your own e-bike. You can still afford 8 euros.

Please Pay the Cafe owner or whoever you charge from a FAIR FEE. If the owner feels like they are getting a FAIR FEE- they will be more likely to assist FUTURE pilgrim's.

Most likely- I'm just gonna guess You are from a #FirstWorldCountry

We are in someone else country/homeland/land of their ancestors' Please respect that...and Pay a Fair Fee-

You seem to imply that offering to pay 3 times the cost of the electricity he actually uses is not a fair fee. What he can afford is surely irrelevant. Should we offer to pay for charging our iPhones? I think the whole point of Xali’s post was that he wanted to be fair.
And incidentally, Spain is also a First-world-Country.

 

[Corned Beef]

It's a new area so it would be interesting to know the reactions of the cafe's to a) being asked to charge and b) not being asked charged.

The non e-Bike community share a lot of information about helpful cafes and local bike shops but not sure there is an e-Bike community yet. So information, as evidenced by the question, is in short supply.

Finding an e-bike charging station: keep your e-bike fully functional

Where is the nearest e-bike charging station when the battery runs out? We tell you which tools and apps you can use to find it! ▷ Read now!

powunity.com

 

[dangif123]

It's a new area so it would be interesting to know the reactions of the cafe's to a) being asked to charge and b) not being asked charged.

The non e-Bike community share a lot of information about helpful cafes and local bike shops but not sure there is an e-Bike community yet. So information, as evidenced by the question, is in short supply.

Finding an e-bike charging station: keep your e-bike fully functional

Where is the nearest e-bike charging station when the battery runs out? We tell you which tools and apps you can use to find it! ▷ Read now!

powunity.com

I’ll be sure to update this thread and share my learnings

 

[Xali1970]

I would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??

I would say - yes, absolutely consider what the (let's' say Café's Owners expenses would be for the Hard Cost of electricity)..

I would rather suggest that you also consider the VALUE to YOU. --
1) to be able to change YOUR E-Bike...
2) To NOT have the Anxiety of running out of a Charge- or
3) ACTUALLY having to "ride a bike the Old-Fashioned way.... with NO PEDAL ASSIST.--
----WHAT is that WORTH to YOU?-

I bet THAT Peace of Mind is worth more than 1 or 2 Euros to you - correct?

WHY not pay 8 Euros? That is the expense to transfer luggage. You are being TRANSFERRED- to the next location too- correct...?? Granted you are riding a BIKE-- but if you expect to do it with PEDAL ASSIST.. Please pay a FAIR fee. If you rented an E-Bike- You can afford 8 euros daily. If you brought your own e-bike. You can still afford 8 euros.

Please Pay the Cafe owner or whoever you charge from a FAIR FEE. If the owner feels like they are getting a FAIR FEE- they will be more likely to assist FUTURE pilgrim's.

Most likely- I'm just gonna guess You are from a #FirstWorldCountry

We are in someone else country/homeland/land of their ancestors' Please respect that...and Pay a Fair Fee-

Is a +1500% ( €0.2966*0.195kW*1h = €0.06 - average pricing oct 2022) markup not a fair compensation for a one hour lunchtime top up? Very few products in a hotel/restaurant business - or in any business get that type of margin. Even at €1/kWh it's still a good markup

If the cafe owner thinks it isn't a fair offer he's free to refuse me or make a counteroffer.
In the end the main point is to ask for permission and abide by the answer

 

[dangif123]

Umm.., Yes.. I own a Trek e-bike.

•The OP had said the primary reason for using an E-Bike on this trip was they had a “physically debilitating injury/IIRC lower leg injury-calf area?
•That made it nearly physically impossible for them to WALK the Camino-- so they were going the E-Bike route.
•Having an E-bike without a sufficient charge, riding uphill “without Pedal Assist… is gonna have the rider saying #{£€%#!!!+”
•It’s like driving a beautiful Duel engine Tesla—and running out of Gas/OP can’t physically ride and having ZERO️Charge.
•Then you need to get towed, let’s add rain ️️into the scenario… and the point I was making was ….
The “price paid” isn’t just THE actual electricity expense to the cafe … BUT the VALUE to the E-bike rider…
•but the café’s generosity in LETTING you/them charge the E-bike-, maybe the cafe owner needs to get an extension cord, maybe other cafe clients need to wait while this is all happening …€1-2 euros doesn’t make it “worth it” for the Cafe owner/Albergue to assist.
•Why not pay something equal to the Baggage transfer fees..€8
•That makes it worthwhile for the Cafe owner (in this example)-You said you owned a Cafe.. would you refuse a “tip?”… all the extra tips add up -correct? Give generously-Pay 8€
•This is an experience/vacation … THiS is how the Cafe owner pays their bills, feeds their families, keeps their cafe open. They are “just making a meager living…. NOT become rich” Give generously-Pay 8€
•There are many Donitivo’s closing/shutting down… it’s stated because Pilgrims “just take, give the absolute minimum, leave 1€ only. Give generously-Pay 8€
•Makes the cafe owner open to helping future E-bike clients…Pay it forward as they say… Isn’t THAT a part of the Camino? Give generously-pay 8€.
•The cafe owner isn’t going to know that charging an e-bike is only 3 kilowatts…‍♀
•They might think it’s going to be much more expensive €€
AND in my example above— if the E-bike runs out/too low on a charge- and the Bike rider can’t “ride the old fashioned way-with no pedal assist”- they are going to wish they offered 8€ to charge/top up.
As the OP stated… they can’t WALK the Camino… do you think they can walk AND CARRY/PUSH their e-bikeGive generously-pay 8€.
You might want to look at Efren’s YT- He took an E-bike on the Camino. His e-bike gets a range of 60 kms—there were definitely times he was like “whoops! I’m down to 1 bar of charge…I hope I can find a place soon….”
Give generously-Pay 8€

Of course e-bike charging will be appreciated when it’s needed. Just as a coffee is appreciated and a hearty meal when we need it. Does that mean we should pay an amount based on how much we need something? So if I was just a little bit hungry and not really that much in need of my burger I’d pay like €3. But if I was absolutely starving and desperately in need of food I’d pay €30 for it?

I’m sure this way of thinking works for you but I don’t see the logic in it. Thanks for the reply though. I’ll do what feels right in the moment.

Awesome work with all the emojis! You must have taken time

 

[SFHoneybee]

Is a +1500% ( €0.2966*0.195kW*1h = €0.06 - average pricing oct 2022) markup not a fair compensation for a one hour lunchtime top up? Very few products in a hotel/restaurant business - or in any business get that type of margin. Even at €1/kWh it's still a good markup

If the cafe owner thinks it isn't a fair offer he's free to refuse me or make a counteroffer.
In the end the main point is to ask for permission and abide by the answer

Ok…. You have done the “calculations”
1) You calculated “last years rate of electricity”-
2) in addition to the Base rate of electricity… the rates go up in scheduled tiers based on total usage… and at each Tier level -the actual costs of kilowatt increases.

•But do you think the Cafe owner has done these same calculations Probably not… all they see is

•Cafe owners are probably used to seeing Pilgrims plug in their “little tiny phones”…
NOW … they see an e-bike- it’s clearly “bigger than a phone…. And it will equate to costing more than charging just a cell phone.”

•You said “if the cafe owner thinks 1€ isn’t fair…he can make a counteroffer”…

•I’d say that is putting the cafe owner in an unfair position-it is putting an unfair amount of unnecessary “pressure on him… to get your business of one cup if coffee- he has to accept 1€ to charge your bike?”

•I’m gonna say… You know what I’m going to say
Give generously-Pay 8€

•Again… I’ll guess You are living quite well… compared to our Cafe owner who needs to try to smile and accommodate, try to scrape out a living serving Pilgrim's such as yourself.

•We clearly are not going to agree.

You want to pay “the absolute minimum -you have stated you feel 1€ is more than generous and you are only thinking about yourself.

I feel it’s more about taking care of the Cafe Owner first and offering to “give generously-and pay 8€”- pay it forward to help future Pilgrims on e-bikes.

•I’d say… yup… give generously-Pay 8€.

KARMA’s a “pain in the backside/”.. and Karma catches up surprisingly quick too.

Buen Camino.

 

[SFHoneybee]

It's a new area so it would be interesting to know the reactions of the cafe's to a) being asked to charge and b) not being asked charged.

The non e-Bike community share a lot of information about helpful cafes and local bike shops but not sure there is an e-Bike community yet. So information, as evidenced by the question, is in short supply.

Finding an e-bike charging station: keep your e-bike fully functional

Where is the nearest e-bike charging station when the battery runs out? We tell you which tools and apps you can use to find it! ▷ Read now!

powunity.com

@Corned Beef-
Thank you for sharing such an informative article.
The company that wrote the article is located in Austria.
“Austria is a very bike friendly country”- and they are having difficulty times locating E-bike charging stations… in a populous city.
•Can you imagine how much more difficult it would be to find an E-Bike charging location set up on The Camino
Again… the VALUE of being able to charge an E-bike at a cafe, while eating Lunch for example— gets the Biker fed and the bike charged… it is saving time… the bike is safe….{these E-bikes cost about 1,000€}
There is definitely VALUE in that… not just 1€ for the cafe owners.
Yup…. Give generously -Pay 8€ to charge your E-bike

 

[dangif123]

@Corned Beef-
Thank you for sharing such an informative article.
The company that wrote the article is located in Austria.
“Austria is a very bike friendly country”- and they are having difficulty times locating E-bike charging stations… in a populous city.
•Can you imagine how much more difficult it would be to find an E-Bike charging location set up on The Camino
•Again… the VALUE of being able to charge an E-bike at a cafe, while eating Lunch for example— gets the Biker fed and the bike charged… it is saving time… the bike is safe….{these E-bikes cost about 1,000€}
There is definitely VALUE in that… not just 1€ for the cafe owners.
-Yup…. Give generously -Pay 8€ to charge your E-bike

How about we haggle? Would you accept €6.50?

 

[SFHoneybee]

You seem to imply that offering to pay 3 times the cost of the electricity he actually uses is not a fair fee. What he can afford is surely irrelevant. Should we offer to pay for charging our iPhones? I think the whole point of Xali’s post was that he wanted to be fair.
And incidentally, Spain is also a First-world-Country.

I was trying to say that the OP was probably from a 1st world country and had no empathy for the cafe owner, who is probably not as financially stable as the OP.. the cafe owner works long hours, maybe 6 days a week- and probably makes a meager profit…
As I look at the responses.. I’ll make a general statement…”men typically tip less than women”- I’m trying to get the OP past the hard nuts and bolts of the math of how much a kilowatt costs… but to look further and see the cafe owner as a person… a worthy person who is trying very hard to make a living under difficult circumstances. Maybe 8€ is absolutely ridiculous—the OP stated they didn’t have anything to measure against— I suggest the “daily luggage transfer fee-8€”… if they offer the Cafe owner 8€ and the owner says… no.., just a few Euros €2-€5 is good… everyone is happy… the bike rider and the cafe owners. I’m just saying … think of the cafe owners, have a little empathy, respect all they do, make their day a little easier, smile and tip generously-You will feel good too

 

[SFHoneybee]

How about we haggle? Would you accept €6.50?

€6.50 seems generous…
That’s all I’m trying to say… Is be generous. These hotel and cafe owners are adding to “our Camino experience too”
The cafe owner may say….”it’s too much.. and only accept €3-5 euros… Let the cafe owner decide”- with it any undue pressures.
I’m just saying…. A lot of these small cafes are family run…. The cafes provide a lot of very welcomed services.
There are a few “pop up cafes” —just when Pilgrims need some water or a hard boiled egg…
I’m trying to not look at the fact that the Cafe owner has chickens… therefore his “per egg cost is lower than if he bought the egg in a store”- behind the scenes- the cafe owner needs to get up early every morning and tend to his chickens, feed them, gathers eggs, cooks the eggs- because he knows Pilgrim's appreciate hard boiled eggs on their journey..
I’m saying —pay generously - maybe that egg cost him .05 cents— do we only pay .05 cents? He should surely get paid for his time to gather the eggs, cooking the eggs, etc…
I’m saying have some empathy and thoughts for these many individuals that support many pilgrims on their journeys- and for many people … THIS Camino is a once in a lifetime journey -an experience of self fulfillment-of meeting and connecting with people…
These cafe owners need our generous support… or they can’t afford to be on the roadside next year… and with estimates of 500,000 people next year… I want to still see little albergues, family run cafes, enterprising Locales —I don’t want to see {Gasp} Starbucks.

 

[dangif123]

€6.50 seems generous…
That’s all I’m trying to say… Is be generous. These hotel and cafe owners are adding to “our Camino experience too”
The cafe owner may say….”it’s too much.. and only accept €3-5 euros… Let the cafe owner decide”- with it any undue pressures.
I’m just saying…. A lot of these small cafes are family run…. The cafes provide a lot of very welcomed services.
There are a few “pop up cafes” —just when Pilgrims need some water or a hard boiled egg…
I’m trying to not look at the fact that the Cafe owner has chickens… therefore his “per egg cost is lower than if he bought the egg in a store”- behind the scenes- the cafe owner needs to get up early every morning and tend to his chickens, feed them, gathers eggs, cooks the eggs- because he knows Pilgrim's appreciate hard boiled eggs on their journey..
I’m saying —pay generously - maybe that egg cost him .05 cents— do we only pay .05 cents? He should surely get paid for his time to gather the eggs, cooking the eggs, etc…
I’m saying have some empathy and thoughts for these many individuals that support many pilgrims on their journeys- and for many people … THIS Camino is a once in a lifetime journey -an experience of self fulfillment-of meeting and connecting with people…
These cafe owners need our generous support… or they can’t afford to be on the roadside next year… and with estimates of 500,000 people next year… I want to still see little albergues, family run cafes, enterprising Locales —I don’t want to see {Gasp} Starbucks.

I think most pilgrims are generous if they can be. And most cafe owners appreciate the extra business. But at the end of the day people will be who they will be and no amount of debate here will change that. We are each on our own Camino and we will, rightly so, make our own choices

 

[SFHoneybee]

I think most pilgrims are generous if they can be. And most cafe owners appreciate the extra business. But at the end of the day people will be who they will be and no amount of debate here will change that. We are each on our own Camino and we will, rightly so, make our own choices

Agreed …

I clearly know I’m not going to “change any minds here…”- I’m just trying to plant a little seed of empathy, understanding and generosity.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Here is a charging area for E-bikes I saw this spring in Sobrado on the Norte where we were staying in a Pension; it was located in the walk out basement. I'm not sure if there was a "charge" for charging them.

 

[ksam]

It's a new area so it would be interesting to know the reactions of the cafe's to a) being asked to charge and b) not being asked charged.

The non e-Bike community share a lot of information about helpful cafes and local bike shops but not sure there is an e-Bike community yet. So information, as evidenced by the question, is in short supply.

Finding an e-bike charging station: keep your e-bike fully functional

Where is the nearest e-bike charging station when the battery runs out? We tell you which tools and apps you can use to find it! ▷ Read now!

powunity.com

True...don't remember encountering anyone else on ebikes when we rode the Frances or the VdlP.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Admission, I have not read all the above posts, no time.
But maybe treat the use of the cafe power like when you stay at a donativo alberque, pay what you can afford or what you think is a meaningful contribution.

 

[C clearly]

maybe treat the use of the cafe power like when you stay at a donativo alberque, pay what you can afford or what you think is a meaningful contribution.

Those cafes are not intended to be donativos!. If the cyclist can afford to have an e-bike, they can surely afford the real cost of charging.

 

[SabsP]

Admission, I have not read all the above posts, no time.
But maybe treat the use of the cafe power like when you stay at a donativo alberque, pay what you can afford or what you think is a meaningful contribution.

Well this shows that it is better to read all above posts so you get an idea about the real costs for these businesses.
In general it is always interesting to read a thread from the beginning to get an idea of continuation and content.

 

[Xali1970]

Ok…. You have done the “calculations”
1) You calculated “last years rate of electricity”-
2) in addition to the Base rate of electricity… the rates go up in scheduled tiers based on total usage… and at each Tier level -the actual costs of kilowatt increases.

To put things in perspective...
When using a public 7kW EV charger for an hour it doesn't cost €8.00 but €4.50 to €5.00, and that is using specialist equipment requiring a sizable investment.
Renting a 220V 5A electric hookup at a campsite for 24h costs €5.00 on average including consumption. I used them often enough to know.
My laptop's power supply's nominal output (170W) is higher than the e-bike charger (144W), yet no one would question me if I asked to plug it in and let it charge while I use it.

You're correct, I should have checked current electricity pricing rather than last years. Current retail daytime electricity pricing in Spain varies from €0.1677 to € 0.2201 per kWh (iberdrola), meaning €1.00 adequately covers the cost for 0.2kWh including a sizable and fair compensation in relation to cost.
If someone wants to give more, by all means he can. Guilting others into doing so is manipulative.

Comparing the use with permission of a standard electricity outlet to a bespoke luggage delivery service requiring a number employees, vehicles, fuel and maintenance is unreasonable to put it mildly, even in the name of "respect and kindness". It's crossing the line between kindness and charity.

 

[ksam]

Oh dear. Looks like this thread has gone down a rather presumptuous and judgmental rabbit hole. Maybe time to shut it? God knows I'm outta here. . Later... elsewhere, mi amigos

 

[SilentNight]

Admission, I have not read all the above posts, no time.
But maybe treat the use of the cafe power like when you stay at a donativo alberque, pay what you can afford or what you think is a meaningful contribution.

He owns an eBike, which means he likely has disposable income, and thus can be more generous in the spirit of God’s grace or hold onto material things. And you’re right, it’s his choice.

 

[SilentNight]

I was trying to say that the OP was probably from a 1st world country and had no empathy for the cafe owner, who is probably not as financially stable as the OP.. the cafe owner works long hours, maybe 6 days a week- and probably makes a meager profit…
As I look at the responses.. I’ll make a general statement…”men typically tip less than women”- I’m trying to get the OP past the hard nuts and bolts of the math of how much a kilowatt costs… but to look further and see the cafe owner as a person… a worthy person who is trying very hard to make a living under difficult circumstances. Maybe 8€ is absolutely ridiculous—the OP stated they didn’t have anything to measure against— I suggest the “daily luggage transfer fee-8€”… if they offer the Cafe owner 8€ and the owner says… no.., just a few Euros €2-€5 is good… everyone is happy… the bike rider and the cafe owners. I’m just saying … think of the cafe owners, have a little empathy, respect all they do, make their day a little easier, smile and tip generously-You will feel good too

In the US, men tip more generously than women. That’s one of the reasons why I like to tip generously, in order to help overcome that generalization, besides rewarding excellent service.

 

[dangif123]

Below is a table showing the average cost to change an electric bike in 24 countries. This information was correct as of January 2023.

As you can see it costs approximately €0.09 in Spain to charge an electric bike.

Let’s say this information is incorrect and it costs 3 x as much (an impossible scenario but useful for comparison) so it costs €0.27.

Let’s give 5 x that much in payment and pay €1.35. Most would give at least this and many probably more. Any person in business would be more than happy with such a mark up.

Country	Cost per charge (USD)	Cost per charge in local currency	Cost per year (USD)	Cost per year in local currency
Austria	$0.09	€0.07	$37.46	€32.57
Belgium	$0.10	€0.09	$45.60	€39.09
Brazil	$0.05	R$0.26	$21.17	R$114.00
Canada	$0.04	$0.06	$17.92	$24.43
China	$0.03	¥0.20	$13.03	¥87.95
Colombia	$0.07	$255.20	$29.32	$111,012.99
Finland	$0.06	€0.05	$27.69	€22.80
France	$0.07	€0.06	$30.94	€26.06
Germany	$0.12	€0.10	$53.75	€45.60
India	$0.03	₹2.20	$13.03	₹957.64
Indonesia	$0.04	Rp555	$16.29	Rp241,312
Italy	$0.10	€0.09	$43.97	€37.46
Japan	$0.08	¥8.62	$35.83	¥3,750.76
Netherlands	$0.07	€0.06	$29.32	€24.43
New Zealand	$0.07	$0.11	$32.57	$48.86
Poland	$0.06	0.23 zł	$26.06	99.35 zł
Portugal	$0.10	€0.08	$42.34	€35.83
South Africa	$0.03	R0.57	$14.66	R245.92
South Korea	$0.04	₩52.37	$19.54	₩22,781.42
Spain	$0.09	€0.07	$39.09	€32.57
Sweden	$0.08	0.70 kr	$34.20	302.93 kr
Turkey	$0.06	₺0.43	$24.43	₺187.29
United Kingdom	$0.08	£0.06	$35.83	£27.69
United States	$0.05	$0.05	$21.17	$21.17

 

[SilentNight]

I've seen a few threads where the idea of charging the e-bike battery while enjoying lunch at a restaurant, a coffee shop or Taberna, and concurrently how much to offer for a full charge at an Albergue, is floated. I use an e-Bike regularly for day trips at home and need to avail of this help occasionally

I'm both looking for opinions and giving a reasoned opinion. I have seen suggestions on this and other forums ranging from the entitled stingy "I pay for a coffee, so I can plug in my monster power pack for 2 hours" to the royally generous of €5 for a lunch time charge. some campsites in Frances charge €2 for an overnight charge irrespective of the size of the powerbank.

I'm thinking of offering €1 for a lunchtime +/-1hour charge, and €2 for an overnight one.

I'll vary this with the cost of electricity, and I'm paying for the service of having a plug available to me more than the cost of power. I'm justifying the lunch v overnight difference with the imposition on the owner of the business: There often is a plug for every bed (more or less, and bring multiplug to leave 1 or more sockets for other pilgrims use while I hog it) while a restaurant/cafe may only have 1 or 2 outlets in the room open to the public and the battery/charger setup will be an imposition


My reasoning is the following:


As a reference I'll use the system I'm familiar: The Bosch e-bike system, I won't research the other popular ones (Yamaha, Bionx, Bafang, ...) as the numbers will be similar.

please note I'm not an engineer, and am happy to be corrected. These are approximations that - I think - are accurate enough for the purpose

charging efficiency 74% (found on ebike forum, though from experience with other devices not far off)
theoretical Power output : 36V x 4A = 144W
applying efficiency factor : 144W*100/74 = 195W

cost of electricity per kW/h €0.33

Cost per hour of charging : 0.33 *0.195 = €0.065

Full charging time from 0% to 100% for a
500Wh battery : 4.5h , cost = €0.29
1250Wh battery : 9.8h, cost = €0.63
Using a 4A charger (there are 2A and 6A chargers out there, the reasoning will be the same though the cost/time will vary)

From a practical perspective, recharging your lithium battery puts a large demand on the albergue’s source electricity. Nearly all electric companies in developed countries charge a set price for a base amount of electricity. Whenever a property exceeds its base allotment, the property is charged higher rates for the additional usage. When a property uses far more additional electricity than the standard additional usage—for your lithium battery will put a big load on the albergue, then premium rates are charged. Your calculations do not factor in the additional and premium rate costs that your lithium battery will entail to the albergue.

Consider also that recharging your lithium battery entails a fire hazard. Do you really want to be responsible for burning down an albergue for pilgrims, rather than paying for electricity at an establishment that has the capital and insurance to rebuild?

Besides, an albergue does not have the deep pockets of places like Starbucks, where we may recharge our devices at will. The albergue owners offer rooms not for the money, for they charge a pittance, but for their generosity of spirit. They also feel an obligation to us pilgrims to give in a generous way out of the goodness of their hearts.

Electricity bills have skyrocketed nearly everywhere, and are only going to continue to rise. You covering solely your calculated, and in all probability, faulty electricity cost used does not address the albergue’s overhead costs, nor the potential for fire hazards.

Further, you owning an eBike, while not as expensive as any of my top of the line mountain bikes, means that you have some disposable income. You likely can afford to be more generous.

 

[SabsP]

In the US, men tip more generously than women. That’s one of the reasons why I like to tip generously, in order to help overcome that generalization, besides rewarding excellent service.

Aside from the topic of charging of e-bikes I want to inform you that in Europe waiters have a better and more steady income than their USA colleagues.Yes, we also tip here but in a lesser degree and only when the service is exceptionally good. Otherwise we will leave the coins that we are given as change.
Example ; today three of us had lunch and some coffees. Total of 58.10. Gave 60. Change was for waiter.

 

[SilentNight]

It's amazing what having one's femur shattered in an accident does to one's ability to walk with a pack or cycle unassisted.

We all have reasons driving our choices, and they're not always pleasant

Below is a table showing the average cost to change an electric bike in 24 countries. This information was correct as of January 2023.

As you can see it costs approximately €0.09 in Spain to charge an electric bike.

Let’s say this information is incorrect and it costs 3 x as much (an impossible scenario but useful for comparison) so it costs €0.27.

Let’s give 5 x that much in payment and pay €1.35. Most would give at least this and many probably more. Any person in business would be more than happy with such a mark up.

Country	Cost per charge (USD)	Cost per charge in local currency	Cost per year (USD)	Cost per year in local currency
Austria	$0.09	€0.07	$37.46	€32.57
Belgium	$0.10	€0.09	$45.60	€39.09
Brazil	$0.05	R$0.26	$21.17	R$114.00
Canada	$0.04	$0.06	$17.92	$24.43
China	$0.03	¥0.20	$13.03	¥87.95
Colombia	$0.07	$255.20	$29.32	$111,012.99
Finland	$0.06	€0.05	$27.69	€22.80
France	$0.07	€0.06	$30.94	€26.06
Germany	$0.12	€0.10	$53.75	€45.60
India	$0.03	₹2.20	$13.03	₹957.64
Indonesia	$0.04	Rp555	$16.29	Rp241,312
Italy	$0.10	€0.09	$43.97	€37.46
Japan	$0.08	¥8.62	$35.83	¥3,750.76
Netherlands	$0.07	€0.06	$29.32	€24.43
New Zealand	$0.07	$0.11	$32.57	$48.86
Poland	$0.06	0.23 zł	$26.06	99.35 zł
Portugal	$0.10	€0.08	$42.34	€35.83
South Africa	$0.03	R0.57	$14.66	R245.92
South Korea	$0.04	₩52.37	$19.54	₩22,781.42
Spain	$0.09	€0.07	$39.09	€32.57
Sweden	$0.08	0.70 kr	$34.20	302.93 kr
Turkey	$0.06	₺0.43	$24.43	₺187.29
United Kingdom	$0.08	£0.06	$35.83	£27.69
United States	$0.05	$0.05	$21.17	$21.17

Okay, and thanks. Much depends on the lithium battery’s voltage and amperage. Also, averages can be so misleading. In my state, which is the most populous state and has the most eBikes in the US, the average cost to recharge an eBike is triple what your table shows.

 

[C clearly]

I was trying to say that the OP was probably from a 1st world country and had no empathy for the cafe owner,

I don't see how you can draw this conclusion about the OP's empathy. He posted here to ask the very question about what would be fair to the cafe owner.

 

[SilentNight]

Aside from the topic of charging of e-bikes I want to inform you that in Europe waiters have a better and more steady income than their USA colleagues.Yes, we also tip here but in a lesser degree and only when the service is exceptionally good. Otherwise we will leave the coins that we are given as change.
Example ; today three of us had lunch and some coffees. Total of 58.10. Gave 60. Change was for waiter.

Appreciate the info. Righto, the US treats its wait staff far differently from many European countries. Don’t get me started on some restaurant’s insistence that all tips be shared among the entire wait staff. I have never been in the service industry, and this practice of sharing tips is what a hostess and some waiters told me. While I have visited several European countries, my pilgrimage will be my first visit to Portugal and Spain. What are the customs on tipping?

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Appreciate the info. Righto, the US treats its wait staff far differently from many European countries. Don’t get me started on some restaurant’s insistence that all tips be shared among the entire wait staff. I have never been in the service industry, and this practice of sharing tips is what a hostess and some waiters told me. While I have visited several European countries, my pilgrimage will be my first visit to Portugal and Spain. What are the customs on tipping?

Usually just round up the change. Most waiting staff won't expect a big tip. If I buy a small beer and the cost is €1.90 I might pay €2. But if I didn't think the service was good I might not leave a tip at all.

 

[SabsP]

Appreciate the info. Righto, the US treats its wait staff far differently from many European countries. Don’t get me started on some restaurant’s insistence that all tips be shared among the entire wait staff. I have never been in the service industry, and this practice of sharing tips is what a hostess and some waiters told me. While I have visited several European countries, my pilgrimage will be my first visit to Portugal and Spain. What are the customs on tipping?

In the right upper corner of this forum you will find a searchbox. You can type " tipping " or " paying " and a list of threads will appear on those subjects.

Here in Belgium the tipping almost always is shared but like I said waiters here have a decent pay and are protected by decent labour laws.

Spain and Portugal : round up the change. But if you decide not to do this, you will not be frowned upon.

 

[C clearly]

Please let's not divert this thread into a discussion of tipping practices. That is another one of the topics that very quickly becomes contentious and leads to locking of the thread, as for example with these previous threads.

 

[SabsP]

Please let's not divert this thread into a discussion of tipping practices. That is another one of the topics that very quickly becomes contentious and leads to locking of the thread, as for example with these previous threads.

I just gave the new member some tips about searching for these threads.

 

[C clearly]

I just gave the new member some tips about searching for these threads.

Yes, thank you. I was writing my post at the same time as you were writing yours, and only saw yours after I hit "Post."

 

[Xali1970]

From a practical perspective, recharging your lithium battery puts a large demand on the albergue’s source electricity. Nearly all electric companies in developed countries charge a set price for a base amount of electricity. Whenever a property exceeds its base allotment, the property is charged higher rates for the additional usage. When a property uses far more additional electricity than the standard additional usage—for your lithium battery will put a big load on the albergue, then premium rates are charged. Your calculations do not factor in the additional and premium rate costs that your lithium battery will entail to the albergue.

Please go to https://www.iberdrola.es/en/electricity ... I found the information in English for you. Their translation is not the best, but then why should it be? At Business rates or household rates my assumptions hold. In a nutshell there's an annual standing charge based on a contracted power capacity tier, then a cost per kWh used that can vary with the time of day depending on the contract. The contracted capacity is defined by the maximum power load of the electrical installation. Yes a higher contracted capacity may entail a higher rate per kWh but not necessarily, and having gone through a few I haven't found a cost per kWh to the consumer/business exceeding €0.33 i used in my initial assumption. Feel free to go through all of them and prove me wrong.

Consider also that recharging your lithium battery entails a fire hazard. Do you really want to be responsible for burning down an albergue for pilgrims, rather than paying for electricity at an establishment that has the capital and insurance to rebuild?

Re fire hazard: This is not a problem in the EU to the same extent as it is in the US as far as I could ascertain. While I won't pretend Li-Ion batteries never catch fire in the EU; e-bikes, Li-Ion batteries and other electrical components are required to have the CE standards certification for product safety. These products cannot be sold legally to the public without that certification. My understanding is the US equivalent (Underwriter Labs) is recommended but not compulsory for these products, allowing a proliferation of sub standard, dangerous power packs to be imported, sold and used legally, leading to a plague of e-Bike power packs igniting. I'm happy to be corrected, but please provide a verifiable source.

As for insurance, I can't comment on the legal requirements for fire insurance of albergues. Contracting an insurance is a business decision in the end. Cheap non compliant third party (phone)chargers are a more common source of house fires than CE certified Li-Ion power packs, and running an albergue with people from all over the world charging their devices using chargers of unknown quality/origin would prompt me to contract a fire insurance anyway on top of a public liability insurance.

Electricity bills have skyrocketed nearly everywhere, and are only going to continue to rise. You covering solely your calculated, and in all probability, faulty electricity cost used does not address the albergue’s overhead costs, nor the potential for fire hazards.

While the electricity costs in Spain have risen, the consumer has been shielded to a large extent both by subsidies, the higher reliance on renewable energy vs. gas/oil and Spain having refused to participate in the EU cost sharing scheme to the same extent as others. Being in Ireland I would kill for cheap Spanish electricity rates. i.e. Spanish peak rates to the business/consumer are still below €0.25/kWh. Your assumption that I'd be so thoughtless as to not research what the current electricity rates before setting on my way is both disappointing and insulting.

I've detailed my logic, using manufacturers information, Spanish current electricity pricing and provided my source for current electricity prices and business practices. I stand by my numbers of €0.06 +/- €0.01 per hour of charge at peak rate using a 4A 36V Bosch Battery charger at current Spanish electricity pricing as the cost to the Albergue/Cafe; leaving my reasoning for €1.00 for an hour (cost <= €0.06) at a cafe, €2.00 for a 9.5h overnight charge (cost <=€0.60 ) assuming a fully depleted 1250Wh battery (uncommonly large configuration) - as a guide to an adequate contribution to the electricity costs as is. Giving more than that is always optional should you be so inclined. I fail to see why the business's fixed overheads are my concern. If pluging in a < 200W device is a problem for its overheads, the business has bigger issues

You're free to disagree with these figures, but if you do, at least back it up with Spanish numbers for an EU legal class 1 Pedelec. What the cost is in California/US is irrelevant, and what is road legal in California/US aside from a class 1 EU compliant Pedelec is irrelevant.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

Nope. I’m not giving up, @SFHoneybee. I can’t get past the impression you create that because the OP can afford an ebike he should be overly generous to the poor (implied) cafe owner. I, like probably everyone else on this forum, can afford to own a motor vehicle. Therefore, by your logic, maybe I should offer to pay 10 times the price he askes for a cup of coffee, (which I need), because I can afford it, and he is generously supplying. I DO understand your point about our not being exploitative of the people who provide the wonderful services which add to the pleasure we experience, but come on!

Further, you owning an eBike, while not as expensive as any of my top of the line mountain bikes, means that you have some disposable income. You likely can afford to be more generous.

You're right there. My MTB cost €4000. I'd better start feeling guilty about only paying €2 for my coffee. Where does this end?

 

[Peregrinopaul]

And incidentally, @Xali1970 rode his ebike on an epic 3000+km journey to raise money for an Irish charity. I think his moral compass is sound.

 

[Barbara]

I would say... yes you've done your calculations' based on what you perceive to be the Albergue or Cafe's HARD COSTS of Electricity... But- what about Kindness and Respect.??

I would say - yes, absolutely consider what the (let's' say Café's Owners expenses would be for the Hard Cost of electricity)..

I would rather suggest that you also consider the VALUE to YOU. --
1) to be able to change YOUR E-Bike...
2) To NOT have the Anxiety of running out of a Charge- or
3) ACTUALLY having to "ride a bike the Old-Fashioned way.... with NO PEDAL ASSIST.--
----WHAT is that WORTH to YOU?-

I bet THAT Peace of Mind is worth more than 1 or 2 Euros to you - correct?

WHY not pay 8 Euros? That is the expense to transfer luggage. You are being TRANSFERRED- to the next location too- correct...?? Granted you are riding a BIKE-- but if you expect to do it with PEDAL ASSIST.. Please pay a FAIR fee. If you rented an E-Bike- You can afford 8 euros daily. If you brought your own e-bike. You can still afford 8 euros.

Please Pay the Cafe owner or whoever you charge from a FAIR FEE. If the owner feels like they are getting a FAIR FEE- they will be more likely to assist FUTURE pilgrim's.

Most likely- I'm just gonna guess You are from a #FirstWorldCountry

We are in someone else country/homeland/land of their ancestors' Please respect that...and Pay a Fair Fe

Ok…. You have done the “calculations”
1) You calculated “last years rate of electricity”-
2) in addition to the Base rate of electricity… the rates go up in scheduled tiers based on total usage… and at each Tier level -the actual costs of kilowatt increases.

•But do you think the Cafe owner has done these same calculations Probably not… all they see is

•Cafe owners are probably used to seeing Pilgrims plug in their “little tiny phones”…
NOW … they see an e-bike- it’s clearly “bigger than a phone…. And it will equate to costing more than charging just a cell phone.”

•You said “if the cafe owner thinks 1€ isn’t fair…he can make a counteroffer”…

•I’d say that is putting the cafe owner in an unfair position-it is putting an unfair amount of unnecessary “pressure on him… to get your business of one cup if coffee- he has to accept 1€ to charge your bike?”

•I’m gonna say… You know what I’m going to say
Give generously-Pay 8€

•Again… I’ll guess You are living quite well… compared to our Cafe owner who needs to try to smile and accommodate, try to scrape out a living serving Pilgrim's such as yourself.

•We clearly are not going to agree.

You want to pay “the absolute minimum -you have stated you feel 1€ is more than generous and you are only thinking about yourself.

I feel it’s more about taking care of the Cafe Owner first and offering to “give generously-and pay 8€”- pay it forward to help future Pilgrims on e-bikes.

•I’d say… yup… give generously-Pay 8€.

KARMA’s a “pain in the backside/”.. and Karma catches up surprisingly quick too.

Buen Camino.

Lot of shouting going on here. I think the OP got it about right. But if you disagree that's your entitlement. Just please calm down and disagree quietly. Please.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!

Your remark is absolutely not relevant.

 

[trecile]

Do you really have to ride an electric bike on the camino? It would seem that motorized vehicles should not be allowed except for powered wheelchairs for the disabled. I certainly hope that if you are going for a credential you will reveal that you rode a motored bicycle. Somehow, it doesn't seem right!

Well they are allowed, and the Pilgrim's Office will issue a Compostela for pilgrims using certain types of e-bikes.
Here's a couple of posts about which types of e-bikes qualify from @t2andreo who has volunteered many times in the Pilgrim's Office.

The issue of an e-bike being accepted as a ‘bicycle’ for Compostela purposes has been addressed several times before. The bottom line is that any bicycle type conveyance that REQUIRES you to pedal is acceptable. To be required to propel yourself forward is ‘Compostela legal.’

Thus, an electric-assist bicycle that uses a torque sensor to decide when you need the assistance of the auxiliary electric motor is acceptable. However, any electronic bicycle or similar conveyance that can operate in electric-only, throttle controlled mode is NOT legal.

Bicycle riders must ride at least the final 200 km. Electric ASSIST bikes with NO THROTTLE are approved to qualify.

E-bikes with throttles, that can be ridden without pedaling are NOT approved for Camino use - at least if you want to qualify for the Compostela. The security guards are supposed to check this on arrival. I cannot state definitively whether they do or do not.

 

[Walkerooni]

I spoke to hospitaleros at a lovely donativo in Rabanal last year. They were struggling with this question--what to charge for e-bike charging when riders assumed they should pay nothing? When one considers most people on the CF take 35-ish days to walk it--that would translate to a pedestrian 15 days on a pedal bike or maybe 7-10 days on an e-bike. Surely e-bikers can pay a tiny fraction of the $ they save on albergues by doing a fast-track Camino on what is basically a semi-motorized zip? And for those saying an e-bike is not a motorized form of transport, puhleeeese. Of course it is. What would you expect to pay for a 7-10 day Camino? At least pay your way.

 

[VNwalking]

I'm not sure I understand why there is so much resistance and uproar about being generous...

 

[Xali1970]

I'm not sure I understand why there is so much resistance and uproar about being generous...

Me neither.
I'll admit I regret starting this post.
No good deed goes unpunished

 

[Xali1970]

I spoke to hospitaleros at a lovely donativo in Rabanal last year. They were struggling with this question--what to charge for e-bike charging when riders assumed they should pay nothing? When one considers most people on the CF take 35-ish days to walk it--that would translate to a pedestrian 15 days on a pedal bike or maybe 7-10 days on an e-bike. Surely e-bikers can pay a tiny fraction of the $ they save on albergues by doing a fast-track Camino on what is basically a semi-motorized zip? And for those saying an e-bike is not a motorized form of transport, puhleeeese. Of course it is. What would you expect to pay for a 7-10 day Camino? At least pay your way.

Why would you post an opinion on something you clearly haven't a clue about?

How much € it costs to charge an e-bike battery is an elementary school level math problem which was explained/detailed in the 1st post of this thread.

As for the time frame to cover 900km in mountainous terrain on a loaded ebike in 7 to 10 days with a standard e-bike battery setup, good luck with that.

"At least pay your way" ?

This is the point of this thread. Inviting exhortations to pay or receiving inuendo of leeching off the generosity of others isn't.

 

[Barbara]

It's not complicated. If I walk a Camino I will probably manage two short days. Then I will spend a week with ice packs on my knees. If I ride a normal bike then once I get to a serious hill I will have to walk. Back to the ice packs. With an assisted bike or in my case a recumbent trike, I can pedal enough to not have to walk. It does of course mean I can't catch a bus. You try putting a trike in a bus. It's probably marginally easier than putting a donkey in a bus. Good luck with that.
I offer to pay a contribution to electric bills. I give more in a donation albergue.
Sorry, Xali1970. You are right. No good deed goes unpunished and some people won't ever listen or understand even if they did.

 

[MiguelMorales]

I spoke to hospitaleros at a lovely donativo in Rabanal last year. They were struggling with this question--what to charge for e-bike charging when riders assumed they should pay nothing? When one considers most people on the CF take 35-ish days to walk it--that would translate to a pedestrian 15 days on a pedal bike or maybe 7-10 days on an e-bike. Surely e-bikers can pay a tiny fraction of the $ they save on albergues by doing a fast-track Camino on what is basically a semi-motorized zip? And for those saying an e-bike is not a motorized form of transport, puhleeeese. Of course it is. What would you expect to pay for a 7-10 day Camino? At least pay your way.

Sensu stricto, an e-bike is a motorcycle they should stay on pave roads and avoid using any albergue just as car drivers do.

 

[Xali1970]

Sensu stricto, an e-bike is a motorcycle they should stay on pave roads and avoid using any albergue just as car drivers do.

Well, sensu stricto, the law disagrees with you, so your opinion counts for less than a few beans past their use by date.

 

[Barbara]

Sensu stricto, an e-bike is a motorcycle they should stay on pave roads and avoid using any albergue just as car drivers do.

Oh for heavens sake. How many times does it need to be explained? If you have to pedal, it's assistance. Not a motorcycle. Legitimate on tracks and qualifies for a Compostela.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

I spoke to hospitaleros at a lovely donativo in Rabanal last year. They were struggling with this question--what to charge for e-bike charging when riders assumed they should pay nothing? When one considers most people on the CF take 35-ish days to walk it--that would translate to a pedestrian 15 days on a pedal bike or maybe 7-10 days on an e-bike. Surely e-bikers can pay a tiny fraction of the $ they save on albergues by doing a fast-track Camino on what is basically a semi-motorized zip? And for those saying an e-bike is not a motorized form of transport, puhleeeese. Of course it is. What would you expect to pay for a 7-10 day Camino? At least pay your way.

I appreciate your comment that some Hospitalero's struggle to decide what they should charge, however as @Xali1970 addressed in his very first post it is actually not that hard to ascertain. And yes unfortunately there will always be a few entitled people who think they should have something for nothing. All too often I hear of well-off pilgrims paying next to nothing in a donativo for example.


As for whether or not an e-bike is a form of motorized transport, people will always have differing opinions on this however the law is quite clear. As is the pilgrims office!

Yes, it is a form of assisted transport. But to suggest that somebody could ride to Santiago in seven to ten days .... . Yes, technically it's doable but not for the average e-bike Pilgrim. Just as most of us pilgrims do not walk 40 -50 kilometer days.

Even Efren Gonzales, the well-known YouTuber, took 12 days and he is a superfit individual. He found out the hard way on his first day that the batteries are only there to assist not to power you the whole way.

Which at the end of the day is a moot point because who cares how long it takes? Yes they save on time, food and accommodation, but they have other costs in order to be able to ride in the first place. Not to mention the fact that there are some people who are simply incapable of walking or even using a normal bike but that can use an e-bike.

That's dangerously close to treading on the topic of who is a pilgrim and who is not.

And as to your comment about "at least pay your away" - seriously? Have you not read the OP's posts? Right from the very first post it was very clear that's exactly what he was suggesting, and in fact suggesting that he pay a little more. !

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Sensu stricto, an e-bike is a motorcycle

Maybe in Texas but not over here.

 

[Bristle Boy]

An interesting thread focusing on the need for fairness and an adequate offer to keep you on the path.
As an aside, and thanks to this forum; henceforth and in this not too distant land, my eldest son and I who both share a similar sense of humour now refer to e-bikes as "Texan motorbikes".

 

[Robo]

Interesting. I read a few of the responses.

There is ample opinion on what the actual cost of charging an ebike might be.
I wouldn't know......

And I would suggest the owner of a cafe or albergue probably wouldn't know either.

If it were me, I would therefore offer to pay what I thought the provider of the electricity would deem as fair, rather than what I thought the electricity was worth.
.
Rather like making a Donation for a Donativo meal perhaps?
It's not so much about the cost of the meal.

 

[Xali1970]

If it were me, I would therefore offer to pay what I thought the provider of the electricity would deem as fair, rather than what I thought the electricity was worth.

I understand where you're going, but if neither party know or have an idea of what the cost price of the service provided is, how can either of you know or deem what is fair?

 

[Robo]

I understand where you're going, but if neither party know or have an idea of what the cost price of the service provided is, how can either of you know or deem what is fair?

I guess we use our judgement, and what we 'deem' to be fair and reasonable. That may not be related directly to the cost of the service. Knowing the actual cost...just provides a minimum offer.

In this case the cafe or albergue owner would have no idea, unless they knew about ebikes. So I would err on the generous side so that they feel appreciated.

 

[Simperegrina]

I understand where you're going, but if neither party know or have an idea of what the cost price of the service provided is, how can either of you know or deem what is fair?

Pluck a number out of the air, and offer to pay that at every charging stop in the tradition of a donation. You want to make sure you pay something - that’s good and right. I would always err on the side of genorosity.

EDIT: what @Robo says

 

[dick bird]

I think we can agree that one should pay for what one uses. The exact cost of electricity is variable and difficult to calculate so why not offer a euro or two and consider the balance as a gesture of goodwill?

 

[Xali1970]

I think we can agree that one should pay for what one uses. The exact cost of electricity is variable and difficult to calculate so why not offer a euro or two and consider the balance as a gesture of goodwill?

My point from the get go...
I wish people would actually read post #1...
Could this post be locked for further replies? I don't think there was much of value said on this for a good while.

 

[Simperegrina]

My point from the get go...
I wish people would actually read post #1...
Could this post be locked for further replies? I don't think there was much of value said on this for a good while.

I think you made up your mind from your original post tbh, and have been arguing the toss ever since

 

[Xali1970]

I think you made up your mind from your original post tbh, and have been arguing the toss ever since

I did, and asked for REASONED opinions - of which there were precious few - to be given in return or facts that might enlighten the discussion.

I made my mind up based on facts, research, math and provided all of it in the first post, along with the intention to cover the cost and a reasonable contribution based on the numbers.

When dealing with numbers I respect opinions based on facts and reasoning based on facts.

When dealing with numbers I don't care in the slightest for opinions based on wind, fantasy, "it makes me feel jolly so it must be right", "I don't know but here's something" or outright drivel.

To quote W. Edwards Deming : "In God we trust. All others must bring data"

 

[Kathor1]

Hi @Xali1970, I share your assessment and also your frustration. Unfortunately, this is part of forum group dynamics and it will probably never change. We expect replies based on relevant facts and reasoning based on facts, as you wrote, but we also get opinions based on wind, fantasy, "it makes me feel jolly so it must be right", "I don't know but here's something" or outright drivel, as you so succinctly wrote.

I sometimes deal with feelings of irritation about this group behaviour by writing a message to myself instead of posting it. Here is how I started a recent one:

I wish that posters make a better distinction between their passionate personal opinion and neutral comments about stating facts about [...].​

​

I wish that posters read not only the thread title but the first post and subsequent comments. It helps to understand the specific case that they are commenting on.​

​

You are not alone. You posted a very reasonable question, of interest to others who also use e-bikes, and you are to be recommended for it. Buen Camino!

You already asked the moderators to close the thread. If you click on "Report" (button under any message including your own posts) and repeat your request it will be followed up quickly.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I understand where you're going, but if neither party know or have an idea of what the cost price of the service provided is, how can either of you know or deem what is fair?

When you use the toilet facilities of a cafe you do not know the cost price or monetary value of this to the business owner....you make a donation (suggested by many to be €1 or a purchase. This Is fair and reasonable.
Fairness, generosity of spirit and appreciation for allowing the charging of an e-bike, in the absence of a set tariff, will vary from person to person and you cannot put a value to that...its priceless and not based on fact or "data".
What @Robo and @Simperegrina said.

 

[Xali1970]

When you use the toilet facilities of a cafe you do not know the cost price or monetary value of this to the business owner....you make a donation (suggested by many to be €1 or a purchase. This Is fair and reasonable.
Fairness, generosity of spirit and appreciation for allowing the charging of an e-bike, in the absence of a set tariff, will vary from person to person and you cannot put a value to that...its priceless and not based on fact or "data".
What @Robo and @Simperegrina said.

I would have thought basic manners and a modicum of "savoir vivre" dictate that you purchase something when using an establishment's facilities.

Times change I suppose.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I would have thought basic manners and a modicum of "savoir vivre" dictate that you purchase something when using an establishment's facilities.

Times change I suppose.

Exactly! You cannot put a price to good manners and you cannot forensically cost it out.
With the proliferation of e-bikes there is a need (for those using them) for stages of charging. Accomodation providers are now being asked to be such service stations.
What you offer (in the absence of a tarrif) will vary from person to person and from business to business.
An e-bike owner/rider needs to recharge so, I would suggest, be generous beyond the actual cost of a "trickle charge".
I'll put my bid in at €5.

 

[Murk]

If all else fails, the sun is still free:

(Encountered on a camping in Switzerland)

 

[Bristle Boy]

If all else fails, the sun is still free:
View attachment 168558
(Encountered on a camping in Switzerland)

But the solar panel isn't