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Donating in donativos

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pilgrimera

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Time of past OR future Camino
Camino del Norte 2023
Hi all!
I’m currently on the Camino del Norte, it’s my first time doing a Camino. I understand from looking through the forum that donations are often discussed but I was still hoping for some opinions. I finished university very recently and for various reasons felt the need to walk the Camino this year. I did my best to save money from wages, selling some belongings, any other possible method. However, I am still walking without much money. I have been staying in municipal albergues where I can, and walk further past and end of a ‘stage’ if need be. I don’t eat out at all, I spend as little as I can on groceries. Basically, I am doing my best to make my money last until Santiago. In some stops the only option for accommodation is a donativo. This is my problem - I give as much as I can. In some places the donation box is away from the registration place, and there is privacy to not compare donations. I have been so grateful for the hospitality I have received - I understand that what I can give mays doesn’t cover costs, I take super short showers, offer help cleaning/cooking etc,do my best to show my gratitude in what ways I can. In some stops, however, they take your name and ID and then say ok now give me the donativo please. It makes me feel so awkward. Once, there was no problem. But other times, they will ask something along the lines of ‘is that it?’ or I can tell that they are frustrated with me, and it’s a little silly maybe but almost ignoring me in comparison to other pilgrims. Sometimes I feel pressured and give more than I can afford. I feel guilty in these situations and I wonder if I am in the wrong. I am considering buying a cheap mat in the next bigger city and sleeping out, because I have around 2 more weeks till Santiago but not very much money left. Wondering what other people’s opinions are. Thanks!
 
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Hi and welcome on this forum.

FWIW I believe you are doing all you can to contribute within your means. You ask yourself and us very sensible questions and your own ethical compass is to be applauded!

Sorry that some donativos make it so hard for you. Hope it gets better!

Looking forward to answers from forummembers like @dick bird ,@LTfit and @J Willhaus who served as hospis in different donativos.
 

I think you’re doing precisely the right thing.

I am fortunate, I am retired, live simply and have sufficient for my needs. I can afford to donate (Although TBH I rarely stay in donativos these days) relatively generously.

In time, I hope you’re in the same position; or better, and do as I do - but right now, just carry on and enjoy the experience and give what you can.
 
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I think you act very respectfully. You say you sleep most of the time in municipal albergues, can't you consider the price you pay there as a guideline? That should be enough I think and it is clear that you can afford it. ( allthough I like the idea behind the donativo's it is a problem for many people)
 
pilgrimera said:
I take super short showers, offer help cleaning/cooking etc,do my best to show my gratitude in what ways I can.
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You are doing the right thing by giving what you can and offering help around the albergue also. That's what donativos are about. Give what you can. Maybe you can't give as much money as you'd like to, but you still give some, and then also gratitude and time and energy to help in the albergue. That's more than what some others do.


It shouldn't be that way. Either it is a donativo, or not. A place that expects a certain amount of money and makes pilgrims feel uncomfortable if they don't donate as much as they wish to receive, should charge a fixed fee.

Maybe keep in mind, when you'll walk another time and with more money to spend, the next time you can leave more.

Sometimes the Camino will call you at a time when financially it is difficult. You still have your reasons to walk and the same right to be there as those who spend 100€/day in hotels and restaurants.

I hope you find what you're looking for, or maybe even things you didn't look for at all.

Ultreia and Buen Camino.
 
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good_old_shoes said:
t shouldn't be that way. Either it is a donativo, or not.
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That was my feeling as well ; ) And certainly had been my experience on all other caminos. However donativos on the Norte have a very odd notion about what constitutes a donation. On the Norte a donation means - a minimum of 10 euro. Does that make sense? - no. But was explained to me by an especially unwelcoming hospitalero at a donativo and others in line who were equally confused by the pressure each pilgrim faced when putting bills in the box.
 
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Wow! So they are not Donativos then!
 
As an erstwhile hospitalero at a donativo, I would advise you to continue to use donativos where you can, and contribute what you feel you can afford. I wouldn't think that opting out of staying in donativos is a good choice. I would rather you stayed with little or no donation than to go without adequate food and shelter, as I am fairly sure others who have served as volunteer hospitaleros in donativos would also want you to do.

More, there should be no need to explain, although I do understand that there are donativos that have mechanisms for putting pressure on pilgrims, including by making it obvious whether and how much pilgrims are donating.
 
It is my opinion you should lift you head, and continue doing as you have. Do not jeopardize the rest of your camino by giving more just "for show" or even worse to avoid confrontation.
You were brave enough to get on the camino on a shoestring budget, you may not know it but you are opening the door to others that may think I can't afford it.
Some are fortunate enough to have means and may not understand what is like to be counting cents to put a euro/dollar together. Don't let people talking out of lack of knowledge put you down.
People need to understand the difference between taking advantage or an opportunity and leeching resources from others. Donations should be proportional to people's needs .... Just think what percentage of your assets you are donating? Not that you should be comparing, but do you think others are giving similar percentages?

I have to admit, I could afford to go to regular hotels, but want to do the camino using albergues, why? For my reasons, ...could someone say that potentially I'm taking a bed away from someone that can't afford a regular hotel ? Yes, and I won't lose sleep over those comments.

I like to add that you have no obligation to give explanations. Again. Lift your head and walk proudly, because you deserve that camino as much as anyone else.
 
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Albergues sometimes masquerade as donativos to avoid some business rules, but if there is a stated minimum then it is NOT one. The idea is that some can afford it give more to cover those who cannot. You are doing exactly what you should in terms of offering to help, paying what you can, and so on.
 
@pilgrimera , you are absolutely during the right thing.

If it would make you feel better you could preempt the situation in those places where it's obvious you're going to have to give your donation directly to the Host. Before they can ask hand it to them and say something along the lines of 'I can't afford to give much because I'm very low on funds, however I'm very happy to help out with dinner or cleaning'.
The host may not like it, but that is their problem, not yours.

In part this unfortunate situation has come about because some people have tried to take advantage of the donativo system, and give very little indeed. Occasionally from ignorance, often from greed. (From personal observation often those who can afford to give more give the least.)
Me being the awkward b*****d I am, should somebody pressure me to give more, I would give less..... . But then I'm significantly old than you!

Many of us who can afford to give a little more do so, so that somebody like yourself can stay, not to make the Hospitalero rich however nice they may be !

One day, perhaps you, too, will have the opportunity to 'Pay it forward'.

Buen Camino!!
 
If you haven't gotten this far yet I recommend the donativo albergue La Ferrería in Amandi, just past Villaviciosa. Absolutely no pressure to make a donation of a certain amount, and the best hospitalero I encountered this year. I don't even remember anyone pointing out the donativo box to me - I found it in the kitchen.

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The Camino often teaches us lessons that we need to learn in life. Could it be that you need to stop letting other people make you feel uncomfortable. It sounds like you are doing the right thing donating what you can, that is the point of a donation. Those can give more can supplement those that have less. Try to be tougher & not to let what others think make you feel bad - (easier said than done I know ! ) most pilgrims can afford to supplement others who can’t give much. I’m sure one day you can help others in your situation. Enjoy your Camino and don’t let others ignorance ruin your experience!
 
I can only reiterate what has been said before by some of the members....hold your head high and keep going. You are exactly what the camino is for and what the donativo system is designed for.
The majority of members are of a certain age and, perhaps, not on such a tight budget as yourself. Some do pay it forward within the donativo system (I would and certainly for someone like yourself).
Keep yourself sufficiently fed and watered. Make sure you are safe and I wish you all the best.
 
Hola yes a couple of excellent questions.
Yes this topic often comes along and my views and I suggest those of other experienced pilgrims (particularly those mentioned above who have had extensive hospitalario experience): give what you can afford; what did you pay at the previous comparable establishment; if you are a bit short on funds make your donation and offer to do some work (sweep floors; empty trash bins; or if you can stay until lunch time help with the daily cleaning).
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You ask if you are in the wrong.
No you are not. Please don't sleep out.
If you can, having read the encouragement above, wrap that encouragement around you and yes, hold your head high. I did not understand donativo properly at first, but I learned. No donativo is allowed to state the amount.
Unasked for opinion coming up: make sure you drink enough water, eat cheese, bananas and frutos secos.
please keep checking in and letting us know how things go from here on! Well done for undertaking the camino, and for asking for help.
in addition, if the places where you felt embarrassed or guilty are private, note them. They aere acting against the rules. If they are truly donativo, also note them. Their organisation neeeds to know. When you have finished, make the effort to report them.
 
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Thank you for the responses, they are all very helpful. Am clumsily figuring out how to use this forum so hope people will get notified.

I think it is true that one if the biggest things for me to learn on the way will be to be less sensitive to the opinions of others. Thank you for the reassurance and I will try to strengthen my resolve a little over the next few weeks.

It had already occurred to me in some lovely albergues that one day when I can I would like to return and leave a much bigger donation.

I think that I will try the suggestion of stating my circumstances before paying (if they ask to hand over the donation), I know there’s no need to confess but maybe it will lessen my discomfort.

I’ll try to stay optimistic the next few weeks and make it to Santiago! Thanks again
 
"Opinions of others" is of no importance and varies..
Good advice (if sometimes asked for) is another matter and is Golden.
Read the advice given by @Kirkie above. She is always worth the ticket price to the forum on its own.
 
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I have appreciated reading all of the kind responses to the plight of the young OP, and my heart goes out to her. I'm sure she feels a bit of financial stress, which unfortunately can take away some of her enjoyment.
It is so easy to judge others, especially if we would happen to see a couple of coins tossed in the box, yet we really would have no idea of the person's circumstances.
 
I wish I were there on the ground to offer you a donativo, @pilgrimera .As everyone's already said, you're doing exactly the right thing.

A 'donativo' that requires (or even asks for) a certain amount isn't a donativo. (On the Norte, perhaps that's a response to a party crowd abusing pilgrim infrastructure, I don't know.)
 
In the organizations that we volunteer for, we are forbidden to name an amount. We point out the donativo box and let pilgrims know that any contribution helps with tomorrow's pilgrims for food, beds, hot water, electrics, etc. We never watch who puts in money or how much although periodically people will try to hand us the money. We prefer to treat all pilgrims with the same care despite what they can or can't give.

In some donativos the hospitalero never handles the money at all. In others they are responsible to count the money and keep track of expenditures for supplies, repairs, etc.

In my opinion the hospitaleros demanding a certain amount or more are giving the rest of us a bad name and I am very sorry for that. Perhaps these are private donativos and not ones run by associations, churches, or communities? If they want a certain amount they should not be masquerading as a donativo.

Occasionally there may be people who mistakenly believe that donativo means free. There are costs involved with the operations even if their are volunteers for staff. We invite people to give what their heart and pocketbook will allow.

Buen Camino to you. I can't be there to wrap my cloak of care and comfort around you in this troubling situation, but if I could, I would.

Simply say, "I have only this much to give." Don't apologize if you are giving what you can. Your offer to help is sweet, and in most donativos where I have worked, everyone pitches in to help together as a community. Shame on a hospitalera/o who makes the pilgrim feel unwelcome.
 
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You said yourself. Your just out of university. Just beginning your carrier. Look at the long term. Now you can and should spend little to reach Santiago. Later in live you may be fortunate enough to compensatie for the starting pilgrim walking then. Like there are more fortunate pilgrims on the road doing that for you now. That is the whole picture.

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How do you mean this? How do more fortunate pilgrims compensate for starting pilgrims? Do they pay more in donativo albergues? This is not my experience. My guideline is that most of the times I pay the price that I pay in ( private) Albergues and more if the services provided are very good. I have the impression that many people act this way. If not I gladly stand to be corrected
 
Perhaps we have had different experiences. I do donate more in donativos than I pay in private accommodations. I do this so that the albergue can afford to keep operating when hosting those pilgrims less able to leave a donation. As a hospitalero, I volunteer in only donativos operated by a municipality, a church or an association. Not in private donativos. In the years I have been doing this, I have found that pilgrims experience with the donativo concept also tend to do this. I have been pleasantly surprised on more than one occasion. I have paid for another pilgrim's bed in an albergue that charged a fee when I knew that they were short of cash and had not had a good meal for a couple of days.

Determining how much to donate at a donativo can be challenging for pilgrims. Giving what you would in a private fee charging albergue is great. Many pilgrims don't know that unless they (the albergue, i.e, a church, municipality, or association) obtain a grant of funds that repairs, upgrades, paying for utilities and so forth are paid out of the daily donated funds from pilgrims. The albergues we (@J Willhaus) and I volunteer in do not have outside financial support. I want them to continue serving not only those who can donate but those who do not have the funds to do so.

Phil
 
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I'm more generous at Donativos because I'm pretty sure some people take advantage of them. I figure donativos are not much cheaper to run. Paying the private alburge market rate at a donativo won't account for those who either can't afford much like the OP, or those who are slackers. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford to do so.
 
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I, too pay more. For much the same reasons as @Philtration and @Phil W . I'm not religious, and I'm very far from well off, let alone rich, but when circumstances allow I like to ' pay it forward ' . Unlike with any other kind of 'charity', if you like, here I can see where it's going, if not directly to whom. It's something that I care enough about to want to support.
I also try and educate my fellow pilgrims as to WHY they should pay a fair price if possible. Which to me is every bit as important.
A good example as to why would be Bodenaya. The new hosts Alison and Alberto are fantastic. Yet, despite an amazing dinner and a wonderful breakfast one Pilgrim with me was only going to pay €10 ( There was a group discussion, without our hosts of course!!) . His reasoning was that the salad and the vegetables which made up a big part of dinner were gifted by the locals. And as Donativos "they didn't need the money". Please bear in mind this was not his first Camino.
I asked him if he thought this was fair, and questioned him as to what he had spent the day before. It came to 25 Euros for the same services ( dinner, bed and breakfast). And he had to admit that the dinner and the breakfast at Bodenaya were superior.
I would add that he is definitely well off - (I got to know him personally, we are still in regular contact) - just not well informed.
I am please to say he increased his donation, and freely advised me he had given more at the next donativo the night following.
Frankly, I think that whilst there is definitely a degree of greed with some people there is also far too little good information about this subject readily available. As I have think I have mentioned previously, a member of our group ( in the same discussion) actually mentioned one Donativo where the Host had posted a list of his costs for people's consideration.
It went on to say something along the lines of "please pay what you can, if you can help cover my costs I am grateful, if not stay with my blessing."
Personally I thought that was an excellent compromise - educational but not in any way confrontational.
 
Costs do vary with the season and albergues that stay open in winter and provide heat are really paying the price. Energy costs are very high. Food costs have increased as well.

Yes, sometimes the neighbors bring donations of food from their gardens or from their home ovens and I think that is really wonderful. Most little towns and their citizens are quite proud of "their" albergues. They always want to know how many pilgrims there are, where they are from, and how is everyone doing? They're really pleased when they attend Mass for the pilgrim blessings or even just walk around to see the village.

We've had townspeople bring us pilgrims who looked like they needed help (pilgrims weeping, limping, or without a bed). The albergue de peregrino is a source of community spirit and an infusion of life in little towns. And yet, if you cannot give or have very little to share, that is still OK and it really isn't anyone else's business. As Phil mentioned, we always give a bit more because we know first hand how much most other people give at donativos.
 
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Thank you for your thoughtful response, you obviously are doing your best given your limited resources. It's unfortunate that you have received less than respectful treatment because of your donations and you should not have to sleep outside! My suggestion is that you be upfront with the albergue owners, tell them about your situation and offer to do extra work. The Norte is more expensive than for example the Francés, I know as I walked it for a second time in 2022. Many donativo albergues on the Norte as well as municipals have closed during the past few years due to young "vacationers" using them in the summer for cheap lodging and leaving next to nothing. The hospitaleros you've encountered may have experienced this too which may partially explain their current attitude.

As a volunteer hospitalera I never wanted to know how much pilgrims donated and would just show them where the box was. I didn't want their donation amount to influence in any way my actions or treatment.

I hope you make to Santiago safely.
 
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Gerard Griffin said:
There's a box in the albergue in Granon, full of money, with a sign that says "give what you can, take what you need". Donativos are the true Camino.
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I am so pleased to hear that that is still the case. I stayed there in early November, 1998, and remember being struck by the generosity of the message. It was something I never saw in any other albergue. IIRC, the albergue was in the church itself, in or near the bell tower. I wonder if that's still the case. Having watched umpteen camino YT videos recently, unfortunately, none of the video-makers chose to stay there!
 
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A different point of view. I'm not sure a recent university grad should be headed off to Spain for a period of time that they don't have the money to support. If, after spending as minimal amount as possible, one is worried they don't have enough money to last until SdC, then they clearly didn't have enough money to begin with. And as this is not their first camino the costs wouldn't have been a surprise.

Fortunately it's possible to support yourself along the caminos in Spain for for far less money than it takes virtually anywhere else in the world (accommodation in Europe for as little as $10! It's incredible). It's not free however, and pilgrims need to budget accordingly. The cheapest options (ie free) should be reserved for the truly poor who would like to experience pilgrimage. A recent university grad from an English-speaking country likely doesn't fit that criteria.

Just one opionion. Don't hate on me. And no disrepect to the poster - I obviously know nothing of your specific circumstances. My comments are general.
 

Not hating, but..that is a rather paternalistic, and slightly cynical, point of view. The OP stated they're giving what they can, offering their services (ie not staying for free) along with donation. The issue at hand is that certain donativo albergues are pressuring OP to give more (totally inappropriate), NOT that the OP's funds are insufficient.

Also....
JustJack said:
And as this is not their first camino the costs wouldn't have been a surprise.
Click to expand...

they stated it was their first camino....
pilgrimera said:
I’m currently on the Camino del Norte, it’s my first time doing a Camino.
Click to expand...


JustJack said:
A recent university grad from an English-speaking country likely doesn't fit that criteria.
Click to expand...

...like you said, we know nothing of their circumstances. And the UK, as most everywhere else in the world, is suffering from inflation in almost every facet of life.

p.s. I walked my first camino heavily in debt and it was the best thing I did. Irresponsible? Who cares? It changed my life and put me on a better path.
 
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When I worked as an hospitalera in Belorado, way back when, I was absurdly grateful if anyone offered to help with cleaning or other albergue tasks. Our donativo box was somewhere off in a corner, and we never looked to see who was donating or who wasn't. I don't recall much warmth from hospitalero/as on the Camino del Norte, whereas I can still remember many of those who worked in the donativos on the CF 25 years ago.
 
I do understand your point however I don't really feel that it had a place in this particular discussion. We all have different reasons for walking the Camino and if you read the OP - I'll quote the relevant section below - it's pretty clear that this particular Pilgrim felt called to do so. They also did everything they could to raise the necessary funds and clearly felt when they started they had sufficient. They are not asking for handouts simply for advice on how to handle the deplorable behavior from one or more Hospitalero's in one or more donativos.


pilgrimera said:
I finished university very recently and for various reasons felt the need to walk the Camino this year. I did my best to save money from wages, selling some belongings, any other possible method. However, I am still walking without much money.
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You also state that this is not their first camino and therefore they should be aware of the costs. You appear to be privy to information that we are not because nowhere in their post do I see that.

Whilst there is a plethora of advice on this forum about costings at times it is very contradictory, especially when people post from their past experience rather than recent history. And it was not until this particular thread that I was made aware that the Norte is considered more expensive than other caminos.
 

I stayed in some Donativos on my VdlP this year.
They were really great.
The hosts were amazing people.
The donation boxes were on the registration table but no one even remarked about them.

Some might put something in on arrival, (I do) some later in the evening, some when leaving in the morning (friends did). Not that I was watching!

Pity that spirit seems to be lacking a bit on the Norte.
 
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@JustJack, I have walked many Caminos since 2015, sometimes even two per year. The older I get I much prefer to stay in private accomodations as I have the funds, and booking.com has become my friend.
I am walking the Camino de Madrid now and have pre-booked private rooms ahead wherever I was able, but this is a more remote route; many stages have nowhere to stop inbetween, and the small towns often have nowhere else to sleep, except an albergue. Last night I was in a ten bed albergue at the bargain of €8 and only four beds were used. I would have had nowhere to sleep had I not slept there. The key was given at the bar and there was no hospi.
All this to say "you can't judge a book by its cover"...on either side.
 
On the CF in 2006, I was taken by the decision of a French couple who walked at the same pace, more or less, and stayed at the same albergues, to offer to serve as hospitaleros for the following year. I recommend it, when you have the chance.
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JustJack said:
Just one opionion. Don't hate on me. And no disrepect to the poster - I obviously know nothing of your specific circumstances. My comments are general.
Click to expand...
Really!! I think your comments are rather too specific and pointed at the OP's particular circumstances to be considered 'general', and as a result, they do show disrespect, particularly as it now appears you made some of your judgements based on the OP having previously walked the Camino, which they haven't.

As a general statement, there are many reasons to walk the Camino as a mendicant or even with very little in the way of financial resources. I do disagree with taking this approach when you can afford more and just do it to 'test' the generosity of the Spanish people. I see no evidence of that here, so I see no problem with what the OP has been doing.

What I do see as a problem is anyone here trying to discourage the OP or anyone else from undertaking their pilgrimage in whatever way they can afford.
 
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While we're on the subject...one of the loveliest donativos I've stayed is at Albergue Muni Domenico Laffi in El Burgo Ranero (also best burger hands down is served in that unassuming village).

The hospitaleros are lovely, and there's a usually blazing fire in cooler weather. The donation box is locked up and one is encouraged to give what one can, and at any time (at check-in or in the morning).
 
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,
I see where you are coming from, but I guess my questions were more about the right attitude towards donativos rather than whether or not I should have done the Camino in the first place. Like some people have pointed out, it is the first one for me. I do think the truth is that knowing my limited budget I maybe should have planned more extensively - yes, costs are lower in Spain but for example I was expecting accommodation costs on the range of 10€ a night. So some costs were in fact, a surprise. In several stops, the pilgrim albergues were more in the range of 20€. Some I only found out had closed once I was on the way, and I had to find the next cheapest option. Caving to pressure in some donativos also cost me more than I predicted. It is not always so simple to go a little further for a cheaper bed on the Norte, as a ‘little further’ is often another 10km So maybe I went in a little naively and it has cost me, but I did honestly feel that my limited budget would nevertheless get me to Santiago. Also, I could understand your perspective maybe if I had said that I just wanted to do a long hike and thought the Norte would be a cheap option - but I think there is too much nuance regarding pilgrimage to propose that there is a correct set of circumstances that are appropriate for the Camino.

Either way, thanks for your perspective!
 
Making progress! Had the pleasure of staying La Casa de Montse near Villaviciosa last night, a small donativo run by Monste herself Would highly recommend, she is a lovely lovely woman and a wonderful host. I had a great stay which is perfect before the long walk to Gijon
 
I was there in the Summer. Granon hasn't changed, and it never will DV.
I
 
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I try to pay it forward. When I can I leave enough for me and the next person, because in the past someone did that for me. If I stay in a private home (there is a hospitality network on many French Camino routes without much accommodation) then I will ask if I may leave money for the host's favourite charity.
Do what you can to help, give according to your ability, take what you need and is freely offered and give thanks.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Yes, some people will abuse the system. That is between them and their conscience. It doesn't mean the rest of us should stop trying to help those who can't afford to give much, or anything.
The OP raised a very good question. I had to think quite hard about the concept of donativo and private Albergues that are only kinda sorta donativo before writing this. I hope nobody would abandon their pilgrimage because their contribution is considered too small. If it's all they have, then it's huge.
Someone put it more clearly in Mark 12:41-44
 
Relax. You are doing nothing wrong. Continue in joy.
 
Hi @pilgrimera - I walked my first Camino during second and third year (way over a decade ago) so I very much get where you are coming from. UK student accommodation prices are absurd and even though I had two jobs, saving money is hard when you are first starting out in this world. During that Camino, I definitely gave little in Donativos (as you, as much as possible but surely not as much as some of the older folks did), guarded my Compeed because one of those packets took me two hours of work to save up for and ate very frugally.

What I learned during that time was the importance of the concept "pay it forward" - something the Camino hospitality system is very much based on (from Donativos, to volunteer hospitalieros to people giving you water/fruit during the day). In all those years that followed, I try my hardest to always remember the generosity of random people during times when I didn't have the money / strength / ability to do something and - now that I'm in a very different life position - cover a bit more than my share. Maybe that will also be one of the lessons you take home from the Camino.

It is absolutely fine to be on the receiving end of "pay it forward" - in fact, in your early twenties / fresh out of uni that's very much your prerogative. Contribute what you can now, collect these valuable life experiences and make this concept part of your life.

The Camino would certainly be a lot poorer if only middle-aged and well-to-do people undertook this walk. Enjoy this time and reflect on behaviours of others you find bad. Try to understand where they might come from (this problem seems very specific to the CdN) and do better whenever you are in a comparable situation.
 
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When I was young, just after high school, I worked and saved and then took off traveling. I carefully hoarded my money, worked where I could, and traveled for over a year. I'm glad I did. Young and poor is a traditional time to travel, before you take on obligations, a career, and family.
 
I'm vey new to this forum, and have been checking threads in many different subjects. Sad to say that when subjects touch some nerves, some people can't help themselves.

A poor person MUST look poor, otherwise they are not poor enough to deserve a break.
There's so much to unpack on those bolded statements, for sure it would get me banned from here. Based on the few things I remember from the nuns in elementary school, I'd say to be ready when the Holy gates of the Cathedral open, because it require to go thru them many, many times to get over it.
 
Isn't this just the case!
I brought up three (two who went to University) and ended up with student debts which far exceeded any mortgage I have had. It depends on which way you look at things as to whether my generation was very fortunate not to have these fiscal pressures (drag) or the current generation unlucky.
I am quietly cheering @pilgrimera on and hope she has the greatest of times with positive memories and experiences which last a lifetime.
 
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I just have checked in to my 2nd donativo I have stayed at in all my years. Today, once again, there was nowhere else to stay and it was the only town for nearly 20k. We picked up the keys at the bar in this tiny town and when asked how much we owed, she got a can with a space for money and it said "donativo". I was surprised there was no set amount, but we gave generously.
 
I stayed at one donativo on the Primitivo (I was limited to places that would accept both a reservation and a backpack transport, and this one did both. Saved my Camino).

I gave her 5 euro over the rate I paid at the private albergue the previous (and the other 4 nights). If it hadn't been at the beginning of the walk and I hadn't been freaked out over my changed circumstances, it would have been more.

OP, as Kirkie and others have said, you're doing what you can, when you can. A donativo shouldn't count how many coins you put into the collection basket (to borrow from one of the more challenging Proverbs). It sounds like a few hospitaleros along the Norte have been cheated a few times - but that's not what you're doing.
 
SabsP said:
Sorry but it does not make a difference if it is the first or the seventh Camino of the OP.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I posted the correction for the sake of accuracy, but my comments would be the same regardless.
 
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With what you say, your conscience, etc, you do not have to feel bad.... Its a donativo, and that what it is. I walked the Norte, and at one place, the deposit box at the donativo, (which was see-through) was watched by the hospitaeros. I also stayed at a place during my Frances, where it was totally different and a pleasure to donate more than one can afford, because it just felt right. You have a good heart, dont over-think, and enjoy your trip!!! And give what you can afford - no more!!!
 
I will also say that one of the donativos where I worked had the collection box stolen so it was basically bolted down to the counter afterwards for that reason. If someone chose to put their money in while I was checking them in, I just tried not to see how much they were putting in...
 
I’m not familiar with the business operations of donativos. If it’s not associated with a church or some sort of organization (ie it’s private), who pays their bills if the donations don’t cover all their costs?
 
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Johan van der Hoven said:
If you not familiar, dont comment..
Click to expand...
how does that make any sense on a web forum? I appreciate you may not know the answer to my question, but other members will. Follow this thread and we will both learn something.
 
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JustJack said:
I’m not familiar with the business operations of donativos. If it’s not associated with a church or some sort of organization (ie it’s private), who pays their bills if the donations don’t cover all their costs?
Click to expand...
The donativo covers the bills and other costs, not the church or other organization.
 
Phil W said:
The donativo covers the bills and other costs, not the church or other organization.
Click to expand...
Thanks for commenting. Perhaps where I (and possibly some others) get a bit confused is trying to understand if donativos are charities, or something different.

Some seem to be run as businesses, with the owners choosing to let people pay what they want versus a fixed rate. Not dissimilar to many others I met in Spain, selling jewellery or other items to passing pilgrims, with no set rates. These people of course aren't operating charities, they are simply choosing a different pricing system.

However, obviously bills need to be paid no matter what, and if a donativo doesn't have a church or charity backing it, then not donating enough to cover the costs (at a minimum), hurts the donativo immensely. That alone seems to necessitate that pilgrims pay enough to cover the costs. Walking a camino is a privilege.

I've also read that these places exist to allow local Spaniards without the means to walk caminos in their own country, perhaps in gratitude for hosting millions of foreigners for centuries. The excess amounts donated by foreign pilgrims would offset those costs. Perhaps that's not accurate though.
 
If they can't cover the bills, then they have to close. Some do apply for and receive grants for updates or repairs. That's probably why many are not open in winter. The cost of heating is high and there are not that many pilgrims to help cover the costs.

Edit: @JustJack the ones where Phil and I usually volunteer just go on faith that there will be enough to cover the bills. In the summer there may be extra money put in the bank to help cover the lean winter months. It might mean if a meal is served that the soup is pretty thin, but the ones where we have worked are pretty well established and therefore frequented by pilgrims. Volunteers often come and do the "sprucing up" for painting or minor repairs. As for private donativos, they may just have to close like any business that can't pay the bills.
 
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What I learned about donativo from my experience and observation in a parochial albergue is the spirit behind it. I will not spell that out beyond saying it is offered in a spirit of wishing to facilitate pilgrimage for pilgrims.
I never saw the contents of the donativo box. The sister in charge of the money does that. No hospitaleros see it either. Great freedom there.
The costs are covered, in that albergue, to the best of my knowledge, from donations and from a subvention from the diocese, amount unknown to me.My guess is that there is also a donation from the Sisters.
Expenses - the usual utilities, plus the household cleaning materials and the replacement of items such as dishwashers, washing machines, coffee machines... and then the cost of food shopping. There will also be insurance costs in there. The sisters receive nothing. The hospitaleros receive nothing. Stop the bus! Of course they do! The joy of the service!
This is off the topic though, but it might help fill out the picture for those who do not know how (some) parochial albergues operate.
 
JustJack said:
I've also read that these places exist to allow local Spaniards without the means to walk caminos in their own country, perhaps in gratitude for hosting millions of foreigners for centuries.
Click to expand...
I wonder where you read this. The theory is really a stretch, and the sentence doesn't make sense. Are the local Spaniards in gratitude for their own work of hosting foreigners?

Young adults have been traveling on tight budgets for many years. I certainly did it and I think it is a wonderful experience! The OP seems to be very aware that it is a privilege and something to approach with a sense of responsibility and gratitude.

I don't think we are going to sort out all of the complexities, nuances, and ethics of donations, charity and for-profit business. Or whether young people or retired folks are being irresponsible to travel and what their budgets should be. To put it mildly, it is complicated. We are not going to arrive at a simple rule that can be applied.

However, we can discuss some of the considerations, and learn something more specifically about the tradition of donativos on the Camino de Santiago. From my reading, that tradition does not include having the hosts pressure people to donate more, or shaming them for their small donation.

The conversation is a good one, as it helps us be more aware of the role of donativos on the Camino.
 
C clearly said:
I wonder where you read this. The theory is really a stretch, and the sentence doesn't make sense. Are the local Spaniards in gratitude for their own work of hosting foreigners?
Click to expand...
From what I recall, the explanation was that donativos exist to ensure that people aren't prevented from participating in a pilgrimage due to the costs. And it was further explained that by the simple fact that most foreigners spend considerable funds to get to Spain, they aren't the "target audience" of poor people that need assistance. Non-Spanish people that come and enjoy the hospitality of Spain contribute to allow local Spaniards that cannot afford it to walk a pilgrimage. Essentially people from outside a country partially subsidizing locals, which regularly happens in the travel/tourism industry around the globe. Pilgrimage is absolutely a form of tourism.

Agreed we aren't going to come to a common agreement on what constitutes a charity, whether or not pilgrimage is a privilege, and the nuances of donating. And I wouldn't expect to. That's what makes discussion forums interesting. Much of this discussion is completely subjective, hence me offering my somewhat contrary opinion. I completely get that others don't agree with me, and that's fine. I hold the opinion that one should not embark on a trip to another country without the necessary funds to do so, and expecting a free bed along the way simply isn't sustainable. My opinion, which people are free to disagree with.
 
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I think one thing that trips people up that are on a budget is the difference between bare-bones „cheap“ donativos and the more luxurious variants. I’ve only ever stayed in donativos where you got a bed, a shower and - with luck - a kitchen. So calculating a per-night donation comparable to municipals (say 10€ a night, 15€ if you want to give something extra) seems reasonable.

Once you start with multi-course dinners, breakfasts, alcohol etc the expected donation goes up according (25€ seems to be a number frequently mentioned here). Which is obviously fair for what’s included but way above people’s budgets if they originally planned on self-catering (especially for a couple sharing food costs). Add to this „something extra“ and we are at a fairly high daily spend.
 
JustJack said:
I hold the opinion that one should not embark on a trip to another country without the necessary funds to do so, and expecting a free bed along the way simply isn't sustainable. My opinion, which people are free to disagree with.
Click to expand...
Following this logic means that donativos should stop to exist. Because they *do* offer a free bed for people that cannot afford to pay for one. That’s the whole point of them and arguable one of the *most important* things about the Camino.
 
Indulge me, on my first Camino I was “schooled” by a Dutch pilgrim who had walked several caminos. His advice to me was to donate an equal amount from my previous night’s albergue and 50% more. The premium is equal to a coffee and croissant, so don’t feel noble.
 
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sun is shining said:
Following this logic means that donativos should stop to exist. Because they *do* offer a free bed for people that cannot afford to pay for one. That’s the whole point of them and arguable one of the *most important* things about the Camino.
Click to expand...
Some believe that if you can afford to get to Spain you can afford a bed to sleep on while you're there. If you truly can't afford a bed then you obviously can't afford the plane/train fare.
I'm not sure we all share the same opinion regarding what it means to not be able to afford a bed.
 


Might be so for you seeing you need to take a expensive flight. Lots of us Europeans take a bus ( Alsa or Flixbus ) , a train or a ferry. Some might even hitchhike to get to their destination.
Or are able to book a lower priced flight with Ryanair/Easyjet or the likes.
 
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JustJack said:
I'm not sure we all share the same opinion regarding what it means to not be able to afford a bed.
Click to expand...
A person cannot afford a bed if it would mean not walking the Camino at all if they had to pay the going rate. Hence the donativos that say very clearly „give what you can“ and - once you are in a different position - pay it forward.

That is where the extra money we are meant to give at donativos is destined to go - to support others in their walk. Young people, people from economically weaker countries/currencies, people that lost their jobs… It’s not our business to ask who they are and why they need the support. Pay it forward sometimes means you release some kindness into the world without knowing where it goes. It frees you from judgement - or so it should.
 
Oh dear. I would really like a citation on that, otherwise it might look to me like ignorant prejudice. I've stayed in a lot of donation funded places, and often they are run by local pilgrim associations, sometimes by local government, not so often by a church or maybe just one priest as part of a service to humanity. Quite a few kind people (mostly on the less frequented routes) open their homes to pilgrims and treat them as part of the family. The way it's supposed to work is that people pay what they can. If they can't pay then with any luck someone else paid enough to cover them, and it all evens out over the course of time. It's not supposed to be a sporting event or a bargain holiday, and yes, there are people who you might think abuse the system. But the thing is, you, me, and the hospi (who is usually an unpaid volunteer) aren't qualified to judge the person putting whatever they put into the box. It's none of our business how much they give or how much they have.
I don't care if they misjudged the cost, if they decided they needed a holiday, if they set out looking for handouts, or are just being ungenerous.That is their business and their conscience. I don't care if they are Spanish or American or whatever nationality you care to mention. They are members of the human race on a journey that they feel they need to do.
So yes, I disagree. With both hands for a fortnight.
 
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This is an interesting discussion. I've been in similar situations as OP, when I was younger. Not a lot of funds, but a strong urge to travel. So I travelled, not so much with the expectation of a free bed and/or meal, but a willingness to work for both. Didn't always work out as I hoped but I never quite starved. On top of that, the experience to sometimes have to rely on the kindness of strangers without the means to pay them back is a very powerful lesson.

OP's willingness to work, by offering to help cleaning or cooking, is in itself a form of currency. That doesn't always work out, which she accepts, up to a point. Guilt and shame have no place in a donativo. @SYates formulates it well in this article on Donativo albergues. "Try to separate the pilgrims from the money they leave in the box. This money doesn’t represent your worth as a hospitalera nor the worthiness of the pilgrim as a pilgrim."
 
sun is shining said:
Following this logic means that donativos should stop to exist. Because they *do* offer a free bed for people that cannot afford to pay for one. That’s the whole point of them and arguable one of the *most important* things
Click to expand...
I always thought "donativo" did not mean "free" and that people who act as if an albergue is free abuse the system
 
@Antonius Vaessen people who *can* afford to pay but don't, yes they abuse the system. People who struggle to pay are the ones you help substitute. They are benefiting from Camino hospitality as to allow them to experience this walk. If it wasn't for that, why should donativos exist? Give what you can - sometimes that's a smile, a thanks and some help cleaning up. The vast majority of people undertaking a Camino can afford a bit extra to cover those that currently cannot. And there is no shame in being at the receiving end of kindness.
 
Camino Way markers in Bronze
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.

I do understand your point of view. I read similar statements before I went on my first camino, so you're not the only one with that point of view. If we were talking about a vacation to the carribean, I'd agree. But a Camino is something completely different.

In my situation, reading such things almost stopped me from walking the Camino, and kept me from posting anything in the forum until I had arrived in Santiago, because I was afraid to get such replies.

As you say, the specific circumstances are unknown to us and therefore we shouldn't judge.

I don't know the reasons why the OP is walking, and it is none of my business.

But I know I had very good reasons to walk, even though my budget was very low and I didn't know if I'd ever make it to Santiago. Not going into detail, but it was a lifesaving matter for me. I probably wouldn't type this had I not walked.

Just to put in the perspective of someone who had to rely on donativos on their first Camino, and mopped floors ect. in those quite a few times to feel a little less guilty and to quiet down the voice in my head "you shouldn't be here if you can't afford it".

I'm from a rich country and had just graduated from university, by the way. Still, I had very little money, a 20 years old Aldi backpack and an old pair of shoes I bought second hand, that had fallen apart by the time I arrived. I had almost nothing left when I got on my cheap 36h trip long distance bus back home (which I had already bought the return ticket for when I started, to make sure that whatever happened, I can return home when I need to). Often while others had a three course meal, I had bread and cheese. I guess 80% of my warm meals were pasta with tomato sauce (I carried a pot for the kitchens ins galicia). Nowadays I often camp to save cost on more expensive routes.

The Camino saved my life and I'll be grateful for that forever. It wouldn't have been possible without the donativos for me, and the thought that at least some places would welcome me even if I don't have much money, helped me to overcome the fear of the unknown and to walk despite difficult circumstances.

I hope that the Camino continues to be open for everyone, no matter how well off financially.

There's a difference between people using donativos as a free accommodation for their beach vacation, and someone who walks a Camino so desperately that they even consider sleeping outside to make it to Santiago. The person who started this thread clearly falls into the second category.
 
I agree with the majority of the posters here. I also leave more than a municipal in the donation box. I have also seen people who are much better off than me (by talking to them and the expensive wine they drink) leave just 2 euro in the box. I have also stayed at donatives with a fixed charge.
Pilgrimera please don't give up and don't feel guilty (you are not). One day you will be able to pay forward and remember the unknown people who did this for you.
Enjoy the rest of your journey
Bon Camino
Muddy-mama
 
Again, I think much of the disagreement or confusion comes from differing opinions on what "can't afford" means. Perhaps a lot of time spent in developing countries has influenced my thoughts on poverty and I'm applying those standards, which may not be relevant here.

Good discussion all around, and I would encourage everyone to continue to be open to hearing differing opinions on matters that are not black and white. A couple of the responses above demonstrate a decided lack of that openness.

p.s. It would be great to hear the perspectives of various donativo owners, but obviously that isn't going to happen here. They are the ones with skin in the game, not other pilgrims, so our opinions carry less weight.
 
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You are aware of course that " developed countries " is a broad concept. Poverty too. Not wanting to go into politics ( sorry mods, do intervene here when I am crossing the line ) but the specific social security system also plays a role.

There is poverty and then there is living a frugal life.
The extremely poor are just trying to survive.

 
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JustJack said:
Again, I think much of the disagreement or confusion comes from differing opinions on what "can't afford" means.
Click to expand...

Probably. You seem to assume that everyone who can afford to travel to the Camino can afford a bed each night, for example.

JustJack said:
Some believe that if you can afford to get to Spain you can afford a bed to sleep on while you're there. If you truly can't afford a bed then you obviously can't afford the plane/train fare.
Click to expand...

Now, there are some of us from Europe who can take a long distance bus for 50€ or so to get to the spanish border, or a cheap flight for about the same. To give you a number. Cheapest ticket I could have had was even less.

So do you think having 50€ in your pocket for a bus ticket equals "can afford to pay a commercial accommodation each day for a Camino"?

Most pilgrims posting in this forum spend more money than that in a single day, some probably spend more than that for their bed only, for one night.

Anyway, this thread was about someone asking whether they should feel guilty that they can't donate as much as some albergues expect, and whether it is normal that a donativo asks for a fixed minimum fee. That question has been answered, even by some who served as hospitaleros in donativo albergues, and the answer to that was a very clear one.

Maybe a more general discussion should be continued in a different thread.
 
In my opinion, anyone setting out on a voluntary journey should have sufficient funds to support that journey. Fortunately Spain makes it incredibly cheap, which means you don’t have to be rich. I’d love to walk a Camino in France and England, but I can’t really afford to. Maybe one day.
 
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JustJack said:
In my opinion, anyone setting out on a voluntary journey should have sufficient funds to support that journey.
Click to expand...
Of course. But "sufficient" is in the eyes of the beholder, as informed by whatever information they can gather in preparation. That is why the OP was trying to clarify the typical expectations for costs in donativo albergues. If she needs to leave early before reaching Santiago, then that is what she'll do. It doesn't mean that she should never have attempted. Walking in stages is common, when people need to stop early for whatever reason - injury, lack of finances or time.
 
Agreed. The journey may need to be shortened if it’s not financially viable to go as far as originally planned.
 
I think that Jack means that if you can only afford the transportation from your home to Spain, but don't have enough left to spend on a nightly minimum donation for a bed and a shower, the Donativo albergue system is under threat of collapse because of bills (heating/food/upkeep) that need to be paid by said albergue. So you need to either shorten your camino or pick a shorter one that you can afford, or don't go in the first place. I have a certain amount of sympathy for this stance.

I also have a lot of sympathy for OP, who has a willingness to work (which, again, counts as a form of currency) for a place to sleep and some food. A Donativo albergue depends on reciprocity and trust and will survive if enough pilgrims pay a little more than they take, so that those that are less solvent can take a little more than they pay. It's a numbers game.

But it also gives OP (and other less solvent pilgrims) the chance to experience on the Camino how important it is to care for the welfare of other people and, essentially, live and be carried by the emotion that is compassion. As I said before, a very powerful lesson. If she learns that lesson well and carries it with her through her own life, I'd call it a good investment.

But I have been accused of being a stubbornly idealistic dreamer more than once.
 
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JustJack said:
I’d love to walk a Camino in France, but I can’t really afford to. Maybe one day.
Click to expand...

I walked on a ~1€/km budget through all of France last year, and that included replacement of major gear (shoes, backpack) a coffee or beer here and there in a café, and sometimes even a really good meal in a restaurant.

The trick is to bring a tent (many campsites for 5-10€, same if you camp in a gite garden) and self cater (baguette 1€, very nice cheese 3€, ect.). That helps to keep cost down.

Wild bivouac is tolerated if done respectfully, which can reduce cost even more.

I met people who spent even less than I did and they still enjoyed their chemin very much.
 
That is true. But some people don't want the cost of accommodations to necessarily prevent people from undertaking this particular voluntary journey. That is why they establish and operate donativo albergues. To say that people should not undertake a Camino if they cannot afford to pay the equivalent of full-price accommodations at donativo albergues is to deny the very purpose of those donativo albergues.

If France (or England) had people who wanted to support the pilgrim routes there to the point of establishing "pay according to what you can afford" accommodations, and you could almost but not quite afford the pilgrimage, so that paying a bit less at those particular places made the difference between affording it and not affording it, then I would say staying at those places and paying what you could afford is why they were there.
 
Thanks for that link, an interesting ( and very relevant!) Article
 
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Peterexpatkiwi said:
Thanks for that link, an interesting ( and very relevant!) Article
Click to expand...
Indeed. I know what she has said reflects my own experience as a hospitalero at a donativo. Far less experience than that of others on this forum, but @SYates' comments should be on the reading list for anyone walking the camino as well as those planning to give something back to the pilgrim community by serving as a voluntary hospitalero/a.
 
muddy-mama said:
I have also stayed at donatives with a fixed charge.
Click to expand...
That's not a real donativo then.

JustJack said:
In my opinion, anyone setting out on a voluntary journey should have sufficient funds to support that journey.
Click to expand...

Sometimes costs on the ground are greater than anticipated, especially on the Camino del Norte, which doesn't have many low cost municipal pilgrim albergues. In fact there are very few between Irun and Bilbao, and it sounds like the route has lost two more!
 
For the OP.

Thank you for your original question and having the courage to ask it.
I wish you well on your journey.

Don't be disheartened by how these threads sometimes dissolve into a broader discussion and at times they can become a bit 'opinionated'.

Many of us here spend a lot of time on the Forum. It's our 'virtual' albergue dinner table where lots of different views are discussed and debated, and there is often the 'left field' view thrown in here now and again' just to keep us on our toes.. These discussions keep us going till our next Camino.

Questions like yours, which was a great one, give us fuel to share lots of advice and similar experiences. It helps us keep the Camino alive in our hearts until the next one. I too was confused by the whole Donativo thing at first. And your question has now sparked a useful thread of opinion, experience and advice for others to read.

Hopefully you are now enjoying your Camino and not paying much attention to this thread, whilst we continue the discussion.......and continue..... It will no doubt continue for a while yet, they always do, before the topic starts to veer off into some other random vaguely related area of discussion. They often do.
 
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JustJack said:
Good discussion all around, and I would encourage everyone to continue to be open to hearing differing opinions on matters that are not black and white.
Click to expand...
But your opinion is very black and white, basically if you don't have x amount of dollars (totally subjective by the way) then one can't walk... which the OP does have sufficient funds.

Yes this forum is all about opinions and subjective experiences, but what I see in your many comments is a clear bias, and a paternalistic one at that. It's not a question of "lack of openness", it's just that you're receiving good and valid pushback on your myopic lens of who gets to do certain things.

JustJack said:
I hold the opinion that one should not embark on a trip to another country without the necessary funds to do so, and expecting a free bed along the way simply isn't sustainable.
Click to expand...

A very black and white take...what about couch surfing, or Woofing (work/trade for staying at various accommodations, which the OP spelled out plainly )? Also why do we keep going back to "expecting a free bed"? This suggests entitlement, which the OP is clearly not.

Purky said:
but don't have enough left to spend on a nightly minimum donation for a bed and a shower,
Click to expand...

If it's a donativo, then there's not minimum set in stone.
 
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    Zabaldika donativo
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