Poll Do you prefer tags or the search function?

[peregrina2000]

I don’t know if members have seen that recently there has been an uptick in the use of tags on posts. I am interested in hearing from the members on this development.

The forum was created on the basis of forums and sub-forums. That means that when you post a thread, you have to choose which forum to put it in. Should a post about a flasher on the Camino Francés go in the Camino Francés forum or in the Personal Safety forum? The person who writes the post gets to decide, but has to choose one.

With a tag, the person writing the post has to put the post in a particular sub-forum but also gets to note key words that someone looking for posts on the topic might use. So, continuing with the above unpleasant topic, a person posting this could add tags for flasher, safety, etc. My “tag search” for flasher would pull up all the posts whose OPs have put the flasher tag onto their post.

I can understand the reasons why tags might be a really good way to get find posts that are currently hard to find (one good example is “art”, because “art” is too short to use in the search function, but could be a tag). But I wonder what other members think.

If you have an opinion, please vote in the poll, thanks! And if I have not clearly explained myself, please let me know.

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[trecile]

I have noticed a lot of those tags recently. I think that if they help the search function that they are a good thing.

 

[Theatregal]

If I understand the use of tags correctly...I think they would work well in tandem. If we had to have one or the other, I would prefer the search function. Tags are fine for quick links but may not provide the more detailed info I may be searching for.

 

[OTH86]

In April 2017, @notion900 started a thread called Please Use Tags. It helped me understand a bit more about tags - tho' maybe they've changed?? My vote would be to use both if it helps find what one is looking for!

 

[peregrina2000]

In April 2017, @notion900 started a thread called Please Use Tags. It helped me understand a bit more about tags - tho' maybe they've changed?? My vote would be to use both if it helps find what one is looking for!

The problem, OTH, is that unless members are going to buy in to the system and tag their posts, it is of very little value. I am interested to see whether there is enough enthusiasm for tags before I start spending my time as moderator tagging other people’s posts.

Here is a link to @notion900’s thread, in case it helps others. https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/please-use-tags.47113/

 

[Theatregal]

Just read notion900's thread. Now that I understand tags better...I doubt that I would tag my posts.

 

[OzAnnie]

hi @peregrina2000
I used to tag some posts not really understanding their use. I’ve just read through the linked post to 2017 @notion900
I wasn’t sure if the ‘tagged’ post would appear in more than one sub-forum and become confusing & repetitive. .

I am interested to see whether there is enough enthusiasm for tags before I start spending my time as moderator taggin other people’s posts.

I think if anything aids a search; as long as it doesn't require any major update to the forum system ., then it would be for the good.
BUT- couldn’t it kick off from a ‘ future date to be determined ‘if people start to use the tag function. ?
I definitely wouldn’t want you or anyone .. to go back over past posts and Tag them

Surely it would be the task of the poster .

Annie

 

[VNwalking]

I'm not a fan of tags though I know other people use them happily. But given the search function and the organization of forums already in place, they seem redundant.

 

[Kathor1]

I rarely use the tag option for searches. There are two reasons:

• I need to click around to find it. Click on "Search". Click on "Advanced search". Scroll through the list at the top of the search fields until you see "Search tags" at the very end of the list.
• Unfortunately, very few posters make use of tags.

If used by more posters and with well chosen tags, this system would be a huge bonus. Tags have been around on the forum for a long time but have been used very little.

To see the obvious advantage of tags, do this and then compare the results:

• Use the basic search function to find messages about "shoes"
• Use the tag search function to find threads about "shoes".

Note that the tags option is only available to posters when they start a new thread. Everybody else does not have to think about it.

 

[Kathor1]

For those who want to explore the usability and utility of the tag search option, you could do this:

Go to the https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/tags/ page. At the bottom of the window, you see a list of popular tags and you can pick one. Also, you can type your own search term into the appropriate box and you may get a list of tags to chose from for your search. For example, I typed Astorga into the box and was then presented with the option to refine my search to Astorga accommodation, start in Astorga, catedral de santa María de Astorga and a few others. Definitely useful.

Then I tried romanesque and only one thread came up because the tag option had not been used a lot. But I saw that the thread has the tags architecture, camino history, romanesque and visigothic.

Yep, definitely! Well tagged threads would be a great feature of this forum.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Whilst not a complete "luddite" I find that the "search function" is less that satisfactory. But it could be my searching skills or the lack there-of.

 

[Deleted member 34316]

I wish there was a way to find all the live reports from the Camino, those present and the past ones, in one place.
Maybe I just don't know how to do it (the colored tag is not clickable). But they are scattered among different sections and hard to find them.
For me those threads, in the present time, are the essence of this forum. There is so much depressing posts lately. The live reports are like a light shining over this covid darkness. I wish they were better featured, if possible...

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Whilst not a complete "luddite" I find that the "search function" is less that satisfactory. But it could be my searching skills or the lack there-of.

I, too, sometimes feel the search function is lacking, but not sure the tags would help me very much. I am very techy challenged.

 

[Kathor1]

Tags are fine for quick links

Oh ... I didn't realise that you can do this!!!

But I know now, so thank you for this useful bit of information: When you have opened a thread that shows tags on top of the first post in the thread you can click on a tag and get a list of threads with the same tag. For example, you see all the threads that are tagged with meseta or Leon. Neat.

 

[wayfarer]

I wish there was a way to find all the live reports from the Camino, those present and the past ones, in one place.
Maybe I just don't know how to do it (the colored tag is not clickable). But they are scattered among different sections and hard to find them.
For me those threads, in the present time, are the essence of this forum. There is so much depressing posts lately. The live reports are like a light shining over this covid darkness. I wish they were better featured, if possible...

The "live" tags are attached to the different Caminos, if you click on the link below and then scroll down through the various caminos and check for live tags.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/

 

[Deleted member 34316]

The "live" tags are attached to the different Caminos

That's exactly what I find a little bit inconvenient, that you have to enter every single Camino section and browse through all the threads that are within every section (sometimes a lot of them) and look just for the "live" ones. Those new clickable tags that started appear on the forum lately (looking like luggage tags) could probably do the magic and save some browsing time.

Also I'm not perfectly sure about it - do the "live from the Camino" threads keep this colored tag forever, or when someone finishes the report and goes home, is it still tagged as "Live" or becomes a regular thread?

 

[Elle Bieling]

To add interest to the discussion, I often use Google to search for Camino topics, and this forum's threads come up quite frequently! If Google is aiding in the search, why spend all that time on tags? I realize they are useful, but I believe that Google's databases are a bit more comprehensive than this forum.

 

[ivar]

Also, the search box on the front page uses duck duck go to search the forum...

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/

I know that the built in search on the forum is not the best. This (or google) is better.

As for tags, I don’t think they hurt. Just another way of slicing and dicing the now hundreds of thousands of posts that we have on the forum since 2004.

 

[Kathor1]

To find "live" threads without leaving the forum, you can use the basic search function of the forum. Restrict the search to threads and titles only and search for "live".

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I haven't used tags for searching. Looking at the way the forum uses them I don't think they would help me with the searches that I do. On the other hand I have rarely had luck using the forum's search feature.

I typically end up using Google and its basic and advanced search features to find what I'm looking for. I do this by telling Google to restrict the search to the domain caminodesantiago.me For example, @Bert45 has created a number of threads on the locations used in the film The Way, some I have contributed to. Using the basic Google text box search I might do a search like the following (using "the way" on this forum wouldn't help much):

site:caminodesantiago.me logrono bert45 rick peg sheen estevez

 

[Kathor1]

Back to the topic of the thread: Is it worth for moderators to tag threads when the poster of the thread did not tag it? Bear with me ☺. Let us take this thread.



This thread will appear in a search results list when you do a basic search, restricted to the term live in the title. It will not appear in a search results list when you search for the tag live. Because this thread has only one tag and the tag says live from camino frances and not live.

To tag or not to tag, that is not the question. The question is how to tag to make it as meaningful and useful as possible.

I myself use Google with appropriate search terms and restriction to site:.caminodesantiago.me and sometimes also a restriction to a certain period of time. But that means leaving the forum, and as one can deduct from comments, not everyone will feel technically at ease with such an approach to searching for forum messages. Searching by tags on the forum would be easier for many posters. But that's just my guess.

 

[peregrina2000]

That's exactly what I find a little bit inconvenient, that you have to enter every single Camino section and browse through all the threads that are within every section (sometimes a lot of them) and look just for the "live" ones.

This is a perfect illustration of the difference between tags and forums. If all of these “live from the camino” threads were tagged, it wouldn’t matter which forum they were in, because a click on the tag would bring them all up. Using the categorization function of the forum and sub-forums, you have to do what @arthur1218 describes.

Whatever we think about tags, unless a large number of members tag their threads, their utility is minimal. When you post a thread, you HAVE to choose a forum and sub-forum, so the categorization is required. But the tags aren’t required.

And then there’s the problem @Kathar1na notes about the (in)consistency of tags. Hmmm, more to chew on.

 

[peregrina2000]

@Kathar1na showed us that using a search with “live” as the search term, and clicking the “titles only” box will bring up all of the threads with Live from the Camino prefixes.

So the search function can perform basically the same function as a tag would, with the main difference being, as I see it, that when you use the search function, you wind up with other threads that have “live” in the title.

Trying to narrow the search by putting live and camino in the search function and clicking the titles only box actually produces the opposite result. It brings up all threads with EITHER “live” OR “Camino” in the title. I wonder if the search function could have a feature that allow us to search for threads or posts with both terms rather than either term.

 

[C clearly]

Here are some quick ideas - as a member, not a moderator! (I confess to being an amateur classification nerd . I have the shelves labelled in the linen closet.)

But given the search function and the organization of forums already in place, they seem redundant.

Yes they will be redundant if everybody tags all their posts with all the obvious words they used in the title and the post! [How to give a useful title to a thread would be another fun discussion.] The tagging should be done with some discipline and an awareness of how it works. Tagging certainly has its limitations (e.g. we tag threads not posts) so it is not going to solve all our search woes. I think we can use them usefully without huge work IF we set things up carefully.

One approach is to have a fixed list of tags that the OP can choose from. Tags should not be confused with #hashtags that are used for trending/populatory/whimsical fun on Twitter or Instagram. Tags should be carefully considered labels/classifications. "buencamino" or "seeyouinsantiago" might be good hashtags, but wouldn't be helpful tags on the forum.

For example, I typed Astorga into the box and was then presented with the option to refine my search to Astorga accommodation, start in Astorga, catedral de santa María de Astorga and a few others. Definitely useful.

You are a more sophisticated searcher than most of us. I suggest that place names should generally not be used as tags. There will be 100s or 1000s, inconsistently covering Spain and the world, yet they are very easy to find with the Search.

I wish there was a way to find all the live reports from the Camino, those present and the past ones, in one place... But they are scattered among different sections and hard to find them.
... do the "live from the Camino" threads keep this colored tag forever, or when someone finishes the report and goes home, is it still tagged as "Live" or becomes a regular thread?

Because this thread has only one tag and the tag says live from camino frances and not live.

This is a great example. There is something special about these threads that is important to our members, and some difficulties of the Search have been pointed out. If we had a tag "live from camino", then posts in any route could be tagged forever and easily found and browsed. Maybe some of our labels should be converted to tags.

another way of slicing and dicing

Yes! The cross-forum slice is what we need. The labels have done this to some extent, but in some cases tags might be better.

Whatever we think about tags, unless a large number of members tag their threads, their utility is minimal.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Their utility might be small, but small improvements are good, as long as the work is not too much! All threads do not have to be tagged - only those where tags add value.

We could start with a set list of, say, 30 tags that we know would be useful for slicing across sub-forums to collect threads on a common theme. Some random ideas include:

• live from camino
• history-art-architecture
• footwear [this would cover shoes, boots, sandals, socks]
• physical disabilities
• winter

The OP can pick from the list of tags, if they want. If they have a good idea for a new tag, they can report the thread and suggest a new tag. If there is a member with a passion for helping people with "physical disabilities" or for studying "history-art-architecture" they could search the forum to find good past threads on the topic, provide a list with links to all those threads, and a moderator could easily tag those threads.

If Google is aiding in the search, why spend all that time on tags? I realize they are useful, but I believe that Google's databases are a bit more comprehensive than this forum.

You have a point! This could get overwhelming, and we cannot do what Google can do! We should be careful to focus on small changes that will help us on this forum without creating big work.
Both @Rick of Rick and Peg and @Kathar1na have pointed out clever ways to use Google to search specifically on the forum.

I think it is better to start small, with a few tags that we know will be helpful, rather than taking on a project that will be overwhelmingly ambitious, and/or useless because it is not done well.

 

[Pierre Julian]

That's exactly what I find a little bit inconvenient, that you have to enter every single Camino section and browse through all the threads that are within every section (sometimes a lot of them) and look just for the "live" ones. Those new clickable tags that started appear on the forum lately (looking like luggage tags) could probably do the magic and save some browsing time.

Also I'm not perfectly sure about it - do the "live from the Camino" threads keep this colored tag forever, or when someone finishes the report and goes home, is it still tagged as "Live" or becomes a regular thread?

I have similar difficulties scrolling through every section and thread and post to find an answer. I often just end up starting a new thread with my question. When I try to use the "search", it doesn't seem very comprehensive. Searching for information is really what I use this site for most, but can take me ages. As for the "live" postings, I don't really get that - most of them are old and not about anyone currently walking. Sorry not to offer anything constructive as I don't really know what the best answer is. I'm glad though this is being discussed.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I well understand how tags work, but honestly, I’m not sure if I ever even noticed the tag box. So I voted in favor of the search function.

Maybe if there were a list of tags with checkboxes, this might help improve searching and encourage use. But that may be complicated or expensive web design work?

Otherwise, if people have to manually add them, I think most people will not use tags, even went pestered. And I think people have wildly different ideas what makes sense in terms of tagging.

 

[trecile]

Okay, probably a dumb question, but how do you use tags to search.

 

[peregrina2000]

Okay, probably a dumb question, but how do you use tags to search.

Find a thread with a tag, which will be up on the top of the thread, and just click on the tag. It will bring other threads up with the same tag. I just put the tag “tagging posts” on this thread, and if you click on it, it will bring up the only other forum post with that tag, one by notion900. If you click on her other tags, which are “tagging” and ”tags”, you’ll see a few more. So the idea is for the person writing a thread to anticipate the tags that others writing about the same topic would use and then adding them.

 

[AJGuillaume]

When searching with tags, can you request posts within a timeframe? Like when you do an Advanced Search.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I use my mobile most of the time - when I look at the list of ‘new posts ‘ - I can’t see any with a tag.

I use my mobile phone exclusively for the forum and I had been noticing the tags recently. Only today after Laurie explained did I even realize I could click on them...it works! Not sure I will use the feature, but at least my curiosity and confusion has been resolved.

 

[C clearly]

You can’t really start a search with tags,

Well, you can look at a list of tags for ideas, and click on an interesting one. We just don't have it set up conveniently at the moment. Go to Advanced Search. On the blue band, click on the arrow to the right and you will see "Search tags." Then you see a bunch of the most popular tags. It only shows the 50 most popular ones right now, but if you enter a word in that search, it will find if that exists as a tag. Some websites have a "tag cloud" that shows the most popular ones.

I hope people are not scared off by this discussion. It might seem a bit overwhelming, but there are ways to keep the system simple and useful, without a lot of work. However, it will not magically deposit information into our brains.

 

[trecile]

Basically, this isn't an either/or proposition. We can use the tags and the search function - whichever works best for us.

 

[henrythedog]

Honestly, it seems like a solution in search of a problem.

If only the thread originator determines the thread’s tags - what happens when the thread develops and heads off in a slightly different, but potentially useful direction?

No harm in using tags, but little merit either when there is a well-functioning search function. All ‘in my opinion’ of course.

 

[Kathor1]

If only the thread originator determines the thread’s tags - what happens when the thread develops and heads off in a slightly different, but potentially useful direction?

The thread originator and the moderators can set tags.

When the thread deviates from the initially tagged topic the newcomer to the thread who is looking for useful information by using the tag search option can stop reading.

The aim of more tags is not to catalogue all the content of the forum. The aim is to make it easier to find some of the useful content on a particular topic. The current search option of this forum is functioning, one can even call it well-functioning but it could certainly do with improvement or complement functions that are easy to use and intuitive enough to use so that they are actually used.

 

[C clearly]

it seems like a solution in search of a problem

It's true that we have functioned quite well, while ignoring this existing feature. However, the nature of the forum/subforum structure, where a thread can only go into one place, has been a frustration at times. Tags would allow us to add another cross-section - for example, a thread that describes interesting historical features on the Camino Frances could be placed in the CF forum, but also retrieved with the tag "history" along with tagged posts from other routes - even those that don't use the word "history" in the post.

when the thread develops and heads off in a slightly different, but potentially useful direction

I agree that this shows a weakness, both in tagging and in our posting habits. If a thread has a clear topic, worth tagging, then maybe it will encourage us to stay on track, opening a new thread if we want to diverge from the topic. At least the information at the start of the thread is likely to be on-topic and perhaps useful to someone in the future.

When searching with tags, can you request posts within a timeframe? Like when you do an Advanced Search.

I don't think so. But also note that the Advanced Search only allow searching for posts "newer than X" (not "older than" or within a frame). That is not particularly helpful because the results are always listed in reverse chronological order anyway, and you can skim down until you have gone as far back as you want.

 

[MisterH]

I don't use either. I scroll through the current topics and go over whatever seems interesting.

 

[henrythedog]

When the thread deviates from the initially tagged topic the newcomer to the thread who is looking for useful information by using the tag search option can stop reading.

That’s hardly the point though, is it? The more interesting nuggets of knowledge are to be found in some unlikely places.

Anyway - whilst some may not value it, others will.

 

[Kathor1]

That’s hardly the point though, is it? The more interesting nuggets of knowledge are to be found in some unlikely places.

No. It is the point. Nobody is forced to use tags. You don't have to set a tag or two when you open a thread. You don't have to search by tags. You don't even have to click on a tag when you see one. I know that forum members marvel in the fact that they can find unexpected nuggets, whether entertaining or interesting, in unexpected places. But as far as searching pure information about one specific topic goes, this forum is an unwieldy mess. And I say this with much love .

The moderators' question is whether it is worth their time to tag some threads that have not been tagged by the originator of the thread or whether it is a waste of time. I say that it is not a waste of time but it may be a labour of love. And we all know what will happen. In a few weeks, we will not discuss this anymore. We may even say to a newcomer: click on this tag or this tag for more useful information about your question about tagging or footwear.

I'd even go as far as to say: please, please give us more tags if we can't have FAQs.

 

[Kathor1]

I think I have just discovered another advantage of search by tag vs basic search. I used to be, and still am, interested in a historic person named Priscillian who lived in Spain and may or may not be related to the Saint James myths. This topic was discussed in particular in the early days of the forum.

Search by tag leads you to a thread that discusses the tagged topic (provided tagging had been done properly). Basic Search can give you a long list of messages where the word appears, many of them in the same thread or largely irrelevant to what you are actually searching for. You soon give up clicking yourself through the sheer endless list of posts reaching back to 2004. A list of relevant threads would be more enjoyable and more useful.

 

[Tia Valeria]

Find a thread with a tag, which will be up on the top of the thread, and just click on the tag. It will bring other threads up with the same tag. I just put the tag “tagging posts” on this thread, and if you click on it, it will bring up the only other forum post with that tag, one by notion900. If you click on her other tags, which are “tagging” and ”tags”, you’ll see a few more. So the idea is for the person writing a thread to anticipate the tags that others writing about the same topic would use and then adding them.

I prefer search but can see the use of tags. However when running my eye down the threads I find the tag at the top awkward and would much prefer it at the bottom, under the name of the OP and start date. That way I catch the thread subject, which is what I am looking for, but can click on the other items if I want to do so.
Any chance of trying the tags at the bottom of the listings please to see how it goes?

 

[henrythedog]

No. It is the point. Nobody is forced to use tags. You don't have to set a tag or two when you open a thread. You don't have to search by tags. You don't even have to click on a tag when you see one. I know that forum members marvel in the fact that they can find unexpected nuggets, whether entertaining or interesting, in unexpected places. But as far as searching pure information about one specific topic goes, this forum is an unwieldy mess. And I say this with much love .

The moderators' question is whether it is worth their time to tag some threads that have not been tagged by the originator of the thread or whether it is a waste of time. I say that it is not a waste of time but it may be a labour of love. And we all know what will happen. In a few weeks, we will not discuss this anymore. We may even say to a newcomer: click on this tag or this tag for more useful information about your question about tagging or footwear.

I'd even go as far as to say: please, please give us more tags if we can't have FAQs.

OK, I’ll try again.

It seems to me to be virtually pointless tagging a thread on the basis of a single initial post when many threads sail a different course than that which the originator imagined.

As to the question as to whether it is ‘worth’ the moderators’ time tagging threads - assuming they have developed or (please God!) been closed after a period of inactivity; then yes! At least they might know which tags to apply.

 

[wayfarer]

I prefer to see members asking questions, even often asked ones, that way they will get many many answers and opinions and will have to make up their own minds in the end anyway.

 

[C clearly]

There are weaknesses and complications in any classification, including tags, which need to be considered. One option is to let it be a free-for-all. Another is to control it carefully. Another is to disable the feature. And there are variations in-between. None of these approaches would interfere with people asking their questions in the same old way as before.

I truly believe that controlled tags could be very useful, and I hope people will keep their minds open. Right now, I see a lot of random tagging of various threads as people test it out, but I hope we can settle on something useful.

As an example, if someone posts a new question asking how a person with limited mobility can do the Camino, people will often reply with links to some relevant threads they might remember. However, with intelligent tagging, any one of us could send the following reply on their thread:
"Hi New Member... Welcome to the forum. Other members will probably reply soon with specific information. In the meantime, you can find some previous threads on the subject ... Go to this page and enter the word "disability" (without the quotation marks) in the Tag box, or click on the word in the list under the box.

Try clicking on that link in the sentence above. A list of tagged threads will appear. Those are still "real" threads, unsanitized with FAQ edits and massaging. The original enquiry is still there as a new thread for people to respond to. Even the new thread should be tagged with "disability," to put it into the collection for future people. The other evening, I took an hour to search the forum for relevant threads and I tagged them, consistently, with the word "disability." We could do this for a number of topics that are not easily researched by forum thread or by the current Search feature - e.g. winter, history.

I am aware of many weaknesses and minor complications, which I won't try to problem-solve here, but some simple guidelines and a few settings should take care of most of them.

 

[Jomas]

I can say that the work of the moderators is not a trivial matter. And their attention and commitment immediately give the "direction" of a forum. Thanks moderators.

 

[henrythedog]

I can say that the work of the moderators is not a trivial matter. And their attention and commitment immediately give the "direction" of a forum. Thanks moderators.

I do agree - it’s not a role I would be temperamentally suited for.

It’s probably important to remember - whilst suggesting new and expanded roles for the mods - that posting activity on here is probably (I’m guessing) less that 25% of ‘normal’. A resumption in traffic will soon occupy available time spotting Rule 2 contraventions [anti-bull-fighting posts, mea culpa], general bad manners and poor grammar.

 

[ivar]

Thank you for good feedback on tags and search. I have plans to make search a lot better towards the end of this year (I will post more on this later). Tags are there to be used for those who like tags... searching is also available... I feel both things can be useful.

...and yes, thanks you to the mods for all they do!

 

[jsalt]

I am a tech nerd, and haven't read all the replies above (sorry), and have no idea about anything techy, but is it really necessary to have all these tags above the title of the thread? They are very distracting . . . .

 

[C clearly]

is it really necessary to have all these tags above the title of the thread? They are very distracting .

Hi @jsalt . This is a recent change that Ivar has made while we are playing around with some options for how to manage tags. It is somewhat interesting to have it highlighted while we do this. However, your comment about it being distracting is good feedback. Hopefully, people will be patient while Ivar and the mods consider the options.

In post #43 above in this thread, I outlined a way that tags could be useful. Since the "disability" theme is something that you have a lot of experience with, would you mind looking at the results of some tagging? If you go to this page, enter the word "disability" (no quotation marks) in the box, you will get a collection of relevant threads. If you know of other threads on the topic, you can send the links to me by PM, and I will tag them. Feel free to PM with any other comments.