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- Time of past OR future Camino
- SJpdP to Santiago ( Sept-Oct 2018)
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AnnaCamino:
I have walked and carried my pack every step of The Way. That said, I feel no ill will towards others who may have sent their pack ahead or traveled by other means for a day or two. They are doing the Camino their way and should be considered, imo, like any other Peregrino to a bed. Most of the people I saw/met along the way who sent their pack ahead walked with day packs. They were usually much slower than others and could not manage the entire weight and walk.
I do not believe Albergues in the old days prioritized or discriminated between Pilgrims who came on horseback/mule or had a horse/mule drawn cart to carry their belongings versus those who walked. On the other hand, I would not be against prioritization rules as long as they were published or known versus Hospitalero's subjectively making that decision.
Bottom line here is everything I have said is my opinion. You have asked a question to drive a decision between you and your friends. I go back to my original post advice here. This is your Camino and you should do it your way.
Ultreya,
Joe
You are going to need to carry water and snacks, possibly first aid and maybe a jacket. Sunscreen. Sending you packs ahead, because it is too much to carry is commonI have read in some blogs that entry to some albergues might be refused if they don't carry their bags and use a "vehicle support service" such as a taxi to bring backsacks. My girlfriends and I are going to do the Camino next spring for a friend's 50th birthday and we are split about how to go -- backpacks or no backpacks -- although we want to stay in the albergues.
I would like to travel light (this is not my first canoe trip) and not overpack the backpack, carry our own backpacks and just stay in the albergues. I have some experience backpacking in the Costa Rican rainforest (Osa Peninsula) and we carried everything we needed for 3 days and managed just fine.
Is there a list of albergues that will or won't accept pilgrims who use vehicle support?
Thanks,
I hope the answer is that we must carry our packs and not be reliant on taxis.
The post is from 2011.You are going to need to carry water and snacks, possibly first aid and maybe a jacket. Sunscreen. Sending you packs ahead, because it is too much to carry is common
A " Vechicle Support System" through a tour company is not usually done with staying in albergues.
Not sure what kind of vehicle support you are referring to
You might find the albergue accepts you, but the inhabitants don't! Sounds like you can carry it just fine, and that would make life much simpler.
Incidentally, I know quite a few people in your age group,(I'm one of them) who would much rather spend their budget on staying somewhere other than the albergues, even if it required carrying their own packs. If you have the money for taxis and bag shuttles you might think about whether that would be better spent on private bathrooms and quiet nights.
Others, of all ages, consider the albergues, the international comeraderie in them, to be the highlight of the trip. If you fall into that group, go for the albergues, but I think you'll mingle much more easily if you are carrying your own pack.
Don't worry, I do not plan on staying at municipal albuergues, because I already read somewhere most of them don't accept backpacks sent ahead and I prefer to make a reservation for the night anyway, so for me it will be private albergues and hostels. But after reading some of the hostile reactions here I would not even feel welcome anymore in a municipal albuergue.
Don't be concerned with what people may or may not think. There will be people you will meet that are sending their bags ahead for various reasons.I stopped reading this thread after the first 25 or 30 posts: it makes me very sad to read how a lot of people think and speak about pilgrims using backpack-transport and walking the camino with a daypack.
I plan on walking the camino using backpack-transport. Without that possibility I never would have been able to doit, mainly because my back wouldn't allow it. But apparently a lot of people think you're not a real pilgrim and it's fair to be sent away at an albergue if you don't carry all your luggage. I plan on walking every step from Porto to Santiago de Compostela, because by skipping parts by taking a bus for me it would not feel like a pelgrimage anymore. Well, for me walking the camino with just a daypack does feel like a real camino
Don't worry, I do not plan on staying at municipal albuergues, because I already read somewhere most of them don't accept backpacks sent ahead and I prefer to make a reservation for the night anyway, so for me it will be private albergues and hostels. But after reading some of the hostile reactions here I would not even feel welcome anymore in a municipal albuergue.
In all other threads of this forum people are talking about walking your own camino, in your own way and for your own reasons. Even if I would not have any physical reason for not wanting to carry all my stuff: I have every right to walk the camino the way I want it. So sad to see people even joking about ''your' camino meaning finding alternative lodging'. And well, I will remember that when I'll have problems mingling with people during my camino, not carrying a heavy backpack will be the reason ☹ For me judging people for walking a camino using backpack-transport seems so far from the spirit of doing a pilgrimage. So if walking the camino my way means it will be a camino without people willing to socialise with me, so be it...
No knee jerk reaction. I've been following this thread for quite a while and do feel there is a lot of judgmental post which surprised me. I sent my pack on transport quite a bit due to physical problems and it made it possible for me to finish I think I was most disappointed to read that people without packs on their backs might be avoided by some pilgrims as they assumed they wouldn't be their kind of pilgrim. No one knows what suffering a person is carrying - I've walked with and without my pack. It is more convenient to have it with you, but proves nothing about you as a person.Once again a thread returns to the well-worn "it's my Camino" and "no one has any right to judge". I wonder if I can beg the moderators' indulgence for a personal observation on this business of "judging" and all the little variants and derivatives of the "J" word?
As humans beings we are all meant to be rational and reflective creatures: we are after all even named Homo sapiens. Given the huge diversity of experiences which feed into that personal reflection it would be astonishing if our conclusions on any given topic were ever unanimous. We can and often do disagree very strongly on topics which are important to us. In my own opinion to argue that "no one has a right to judge my actions" is an untenable position: in effect a declaration that I am personally infallible in the sense that my deeds and words are not subject to external scrutiny and are necessarily correct simply because I say so. In what field of human life is that true?
If we accept that others may legitimately reach different conclusions from our own then I feel that we should also accept their right to express them - though always in a polite manner. Disagreement is not necessarily discourtesy. I would suggest that as rational beings we should consider a contradictory position dispassionately and assess the arguments being put forward. Unless we are profoundly arrogant I think that we must always be open to the possibility that our own words and actions have been flawed. There is no obligation to agree with a contrary position but I feel that a rational response to one should be analysis and reflection rather than a knee-jerk defensive anger. If one's words or actions have been considered and justified why should we be unduly troubled by a contradictory position?
You really did not get my point at all. I don't judge people walking with their packs.Judge away if it serves you and read with caution if your adverse to Pilgrims who carry the weight on their shoulders.
If you had your pack transported, it meant that you had access to a vehicle that could take you down the road far easier than a person carrying a pack. It was also why bicyclists were not allowed to check in to an albergue until later in the afternoon after the walkers had arrived. Back then, if an albergue was full, there were no alternative places to stay so those who had easier means of getting to the next albergue checked in later.
You seem to not have the option of walking with a pack so it is unfortunate that you may not be able to stay at some municipal albergues. Other albergues may be uncomfortable because people think wrongly that you are cheating even though the albergue allows you to stay there. But you have already decided to stay in private albergues that will let you forward your luggage, so that doesn’t really seem to be a problem.
No, I don’t think their right to express their opinion should be denied.@Gilmore Girl I intended to make a general point about the nature of debate rather than address one specific issue. You made a decision which appears to me to be well considered and justified to your own satisfaction. Others have taken a contrary position which you understandably find unacceptable. The question I intended to raise is whether or not it is acceptable to deny those others the right even to express that unpalatable contrary opinion. Simply labelling a contrary position as "judgmental" does nothing to address the contested issues and further the discussion.
For some people walking a camino is a challenge in itself. I don't need to do it carrying all my stuff for it to be a challenge. But I did not mean to start a discussion on whether to carry a backpack or not. I have my reasons to choose walking with a daypack and I don't really feel like defending all my reasons for it.My own opinion is that the Camino is a perfect opportunity for those of us who are used to always taking the convenient, “less efffort” alternative to see about challenging ourselves physically. Why? Not because I think it will make me or you a better person, but just because it’s a challenge that we don’t often undertake in our normal car dependent “park as close to the store as possible” lives. And I am one of those who thinks that humankind needs rise to challenges in order to survive. And I also see the toll that all of this convenience and effortless living has taken on our physical, and probably mental, health and fitness.
People who say they can’t carry their packs because of their back problems frequently are misinformed about the impact of a pack on back problems. In fact, good packs put absolutely no pressure on the back or its muscles. So for those with the normal lower back pain problem, it’s just not accurate to say “I have back pain so I have to have my pack carried.” That doesn’t mean I think you are a bad person or a flawed peregrino if you want to have your pack carried, just that I think you may have missed an opportunity to challenge yourself and see how free-ing it is to walk without being tied to a destination.
I am not a pilgrim yet as my planned Camino is also spring 2020. Planning this pilgrimage has been such a source of joy and excitement. As a new member who reads posts on this forum everyday, and with little experience like yourself and friends I would respond to your question and say: do your caminos any way you want to. Have a plan B in case albergues choose to refuse non backpackers with a good list of alternate nearby albergues as well as phone numbers handy just in case you do need transportation for whatever reason. Be prepared for nothing, anything or everything to go wrong. Live your Camino and let go of all the other stuff. It does not matter. Your journey is what matters. Buen Camino and safe journeyI have read in some blogs that entry to some albergues might be refused if they don't carry their bags and use a "vehicle support service" such as a taxi to bring backsacks. My girlfriends and I are going to do the Camino next spring for a friend's 50th birthday and we are split about how to go -- backpacks or no backpacks -- although we want to stay in the albergues.
I would like to travel light (this is not my first canoe trip) and not overpack the backpack, carry our own backpacks and just stay in the albergues. I have some experience backpacking in the Costa Rican rainforest (Osa Peninsula) and we carried everything we needed for 3 days and managed just fine.
Is there a list of albergues that will or won't accept pilgrims who use vehicle support?
Thanks,
I hope the answer is that we must carry our packs and not be reliant on taxis.
Omg LmaoI am not a pilgrim yet as my planned Camino is also spring 2020. Planning this pilgrimage has been such a source of joy and excitement. As a new member who reads posts on this forum everyday, and with little experience like yourself and friends I would respond to your question and say: do your caminos any way you want to. Have a plan B in case albergues choose to refuse non backpackers with a good list of alternate nearby albergues as well as phone numbers handy just in case you do need transportation for whatever reason. Be prepared for nothing, anything or everything to go wrong. Live your Camino and let go of all the other stuff. It does not matter. Your journey is what matters. Buen Camino and safe journey ❤
The Camino is not necessarily about carrying your pack. At 71 years of age, 110 lbs and 6'6" I cannot carry my pack. I have never been ignored by anyone because I sent my bag ahead. In fact, I have made more friends than I can count. We all do the Camino in different ways depending on our own abilities. We are not there to judge others. Buen Camino.I was never of a mind NOT to talk to someone on the camino on the basis of whether or not they carried their big pack.That said, I didn't think I had much in common with those who had their pack sent ahead.
I certainly wouldn't have sought them out of an evening, which is rather ironic, given that I am about to embark on the second Camino Salvado, where everyone's big packs will be sent ahead.
Regards
I'm just resenting the idea that people will be avoiding me and calling me a cheater just for walking the camino without a heavy backpack.
I am something of a pedestrian fundamentalist myself. For me it is important to walk every step of the way from my starting point to my destination and to carry my pack. But I am not self-centred enough to believe that my own choices should apply to everyone else. I think there is a very distasteful competitive edge to a lot of Camino discussion these days. My first Camino predated both luggage transport services and the 100km rule - both of which seem to provide an excellent excuse for bragging and a very unpleasant oneupmanship from the more physically able or time-rich. I would LOVE to see the cathedral abolishing the 100km rule and returning to the earlier situation when pilgrims were asked to explain their motivations for undertaking the pilgrimage and give some account of their own experience on the way before being given their Compostela. An inquisition which had much more to do with interior questions and very little to do with physical abilities or achievements.As a final note, in your earlier message you talked a bit about how important it is to you to walk every step of the way for it to be a real pilgrimage for you. Please be mindful of those who are physically limited and not able to walk every step of the way. Some of the so-called dreaded bus touregrinos are more surely pilgrims on their way to the apostles tomb than some who carry huge packs and walk every step over long distances. Yes, they might cause a clog in the trail as they limp across that Roman bridge, but that only makes me more mindful of how blessed I am to be able to walk every step.
I understand your point of view.I am something of a pedestrian fundamentalist myself. For me it is important to walk every step of the way from my starting point to my destination and to carry my pack. But I am not self-centred enough to believe that my own choices should apply to everyone else. I think there is a very distasteful competitive edge to a lot of Camino discussion these days. My first Camino predated both luggage transport services and the 100km rule - both of which seem to provide an excellent excuse for bragging and a very unpleasant oneupmanship from the more physically able or time-rich. I would LOVE to see the cathedral abolishing the 100km rule and returning to the earlier situation when pilgrims were asked to explain their motivations for undertaking the pilgrimage and give some account of their own experience on the way before being given their credencial. An inquisition which had much more to do with interior questions and very little to do with physical abilities or achievements.
I think you may have misunderstood my post. I choose to carry my pack all the way because I know that I can very easily and it gives me a freedom to change my plans at will. Using luggage transport means that you commit yourself to walking a certain distance and that limits your options for that day. I am fortunate enough to be in reasonable health and fitness and so do not need that assistance to walk a Camino. A fact for which I am very grateful. If you need such assistance to walk a Camino then by all means use it with whatever blessing I can give you.I understand your point of view.
However, what would you see as a solution of Pilgrims who have a sincere desire to do the Pilgrimage but are not able bodied enough to do so without some kind of assistance?
I'm sorry @Annet2020, but I fail to see where the judging is happening. Different viewpoints, yes certainly - but no-one currently here is being judgemental. People are expressing and describing their experience, that's all.My point is that people carrying their packs judge people that do not carry theirs, because that is what's happening in this thread!
a rational response to one should be analysis and reflection rather than a knee-jerk defensive anger. If one's words or actions have been considered and justified why should we be unduly troubled by a contradictory position?
You have no need to defend, explain, or rationalize yourself to anyone - the camino is there for all of us, no matter how able-bodied. Plenty of people transport their packs and it's no big deal. But if you're unconsciously the one comparing yourself unfavorably to people who carry their packs, then anything we say when received from that place of insecurity will feel like judgement - regardless of whether it's there or not.I totally agree with @Bradypus that it’s perfectly acceptable, indeed to be expected, that we would all have our own opinions on this topic. There is a huge difference between having an opinion and being judgmental, IMO.
That would most likely be wrong. There would probably be other other reasons, if that were to happen.I will remember that when I'll have problems mingling with people during my camino, not carrying a heavy backpack will be the reason
I have never seen such nasty behaviour. However, there are all types of people on the Camino, so I suppose you could encounter 1 or 2 unpleasant people. But to go with that resentment and expectation would be a very unfortunate approach to your Camino.I'm just resenting the idea that people will be avoiding me and calling me a cheater
Exactly.Accept that the rule is an imperfect means of allotting a limited number of beds and not a judgment on you.
I think it is a non-issue for most of us repeat pilgrims. There are a lot of misconceptions and anxieties by newcomers..this should be a non issue in 2019.
You just spoke my thought, @C clearly .I think it is a non-issue for most of us repeat pilgrims. There are a lot of misconceptions and anxieties by newcomers.
A parochial albergue I know on the CF accepts deliveries of luggage, but that does not mean a bed is secured. if it is raining, the bag/pack is brought inside. If the owner arrives after all the beds are taken, some other solution is found. Maybe the pilgrim has to walk on, maybe the pilgrim will be driven to the next albergue...@danielle aird quoted a post of mine from 2011 a little earlier, and it made me wonder whether my views on this had changed in the intervening time, and why.
While I still hold to the view I expressed then that I wouldn't shun someone because they had not carried their own pack, I think that there are other dimensions to this topic.
The first is that it is clear to me that this has long been an accepted practice, and I say this because my first credential which I got in 2010 contains, in French, this: 'Walking pilgrims have priority over those on bicycles. Those performing their pilgrimage with the support of a car must seek separate accommodations from the Pilgrims' Shelters.' There is a somewhat similar clause in the English translation of the credencial from the cathedral in SDC, 'Groups organised with support car or by bicycle are requested to seek alternative shelter to the pilgrim hostels.'
Further, the cathedral requirement for the compostela is, amongst other things, to 'Do the last 100 km on foot or horseback, or the last 200 km by bicycle.' There is no mention of carrying a pack anywhere that I can find on the Pilgrim Office website. That might be the traditional way, but that is a personal choice we make. And because there is no requirement to walk with a pack, there isn't going to be any requirement to explain why one might have done that or not. It is completely irrelevant, even when forum members feel that their reasons for making this choice need to be considered in some way.
But the rise of pack taxi services and the move into this marketplace by the Correos has created the circumstances where one doesn't need to be in a larger (physical) group in order to arrange for the support of a car. One can almost seamlessly become part of a large virtual group by virtue of the pack taxi services. So my question is 'Should one analyse this membership of a large virtual group in the same manner as if one were in a somewhat smaller group who arranged a support vehicle?' And right now, I cannot see any reason not to do that.
So what? By obtaining a credential, and by extension agreeing to the terms in it, it would be reasonable to expect that someone who is using a pack taxi would also not seek to use pilgrim shelters/hostels, or at least not those that operate to support pilgrims in the traditional style (on foot, by bicycle or on horseback) carrying their pack. But even the Spanish Federation of Friends of the Camino de Santiago Associations allows some leeway on this matter, and appears to only seek to apply this restriction during the summer months.
Which gives rise to this - at some stage, a hospitalero will have to make a judgement about whether or not someone whose pack arrives by taxi will be allowed to stay. And while the reasons for not carrying a pack are not of interest to the Pilgrim Office, and perhaps should only be a matter of interest to fellow pilgrims as a topic of polite conversation and nothing more, they might very quickly have great significance if it is going to make the difference between staying somewhere or having to move on to find other accommodation.
As for the mantra 'its my Camino'? It is indeed, and of course each of us walk it in our own way. But clearly it isn't going to stop someone who has to make a judgement about that from doing so.
These terms are not general knowledge, and it's a pity that they are not - because as a result there seems to be an erroneous general sense of entitlement that a 'pilgrim' (however one defines that) is entitled to a bed, no matter what - and that's obviously not always the case.By obtaining a credential, and by extension agreeing to the terms in it, it would be reasonable to expect that someone who is using a pack taxi would also not seek to use pilgrim shelters/hostels, or at least not those that operate to support pilgrims in the traditional style (on foot, by bicycle or on horseback) carrying their pack.
I think we might have to disagree on this one. My own interpretation of the "group with support car" reference is rather more literal. An attempt to stop the monopolisation of albergues by larger parties which are free to move more quickly because of the vehicle support and who might be booked in en masse by a group member sent ahead for the purpose. A practice which leaves little or no room for individual walkers arriving later whether they use luggage services or not. I think that your 'virtual group' concept is stretching the rule rather further than was probably intended.But the rise of pack taxi services and the move into this marketplace by the Correos has created the circumstances where one doesn't need to be in a larger (physical) group in order to arrange for the support of a car. One can almost seamlessly become part of a large virtual group by virtue of the pack taxi services. So my question is 'Should one analyse this membership of a large virtual group in the same manner as if one were in a somewhat smaller group who arranged a support vehicle?' And right now, I cannot see any reason not to do that.
Welcome Anne. Relax & take each day as it comes. There will be challenges, unexpected experiences & changes of plans. Your camino will be your camino, however you do it. There is no right or wrong way, only the way that is right for the uniqueness of who & what you are. Many blessings on your Way. Buen CaminoFor some people walking a camino is a challenge in itself. I don't need to do it carrying all my stuff for it to be a challenge. But I did not mean to start a discussion on whether to carry a backpack or not. I have my reasons to choose walking with a daypack and I don't really feel like defending all my reasons for it.
I would agree that the current circumstances might not have been foreseen when these 'rules' were put in place. I am also not so sure we will get any further here in deciphering this - that seems to be a matter for the cathedral and FICS perhaps.I think that your 'virtual group' concept is stretching the rule rather further than was probably intended.
Really? They are printed in plain sight on every credential - you don't have to search for them.These terms are not general knowledge
On the Cathedral's own credencials certainly. And in Spanish which I suspect many foreign pilgrims either cannot read or do not take the trouble to. Not so sure that the many approved credencials from the various international Camino associations and the Amis in SJPDP reproduce them in their respective languages.Really? They are printed in plain sight on every credential - you don't have to search for them.
If we accept that others may legitimately reach different conclusions from our own then I feel that we should also accept their right to express them - though always in a polite manner. Disagreement is not necessarily discourtesy.
Indeed I don't mind staying at a private albergue or hostel. I'm just resenting the idea that people will be avoiding me and calling me a cheater just for walking the camino without a heavy backpack.
Indeed. Pilgrims who arrive on foot are a tiny proportion of the total. The Opera Romana Pellegrinaggi is a vast travel agency offering group tours to many religious sites. And it refers to its customers as pilgrims.If you fly to Rome and take a taxi to St Peter's to pray at the tomb, the Pope still calls you a pilgrim.
On the Cathedral's own credencials certainly. And in Spanish which I suspect many foreign pilgrims either cannot read or do not take the trouble to. Not so sure that the many approved credencials from the various international Camino associations and the Amis in SJPDP reproduce them in their respective languages.
On the Cathedral's own credencials certainly. And in Spanish which I suspect many foreign pilgrims either cannot read or do not take the trouble to. Not so sure that the many approved credencials from the various international Camino associations and the Amis in SJPDP reproduce them in their respective languages.
[/QUOTE
Hi Bradypus,just to let you know that the regulations are printed on the back of the credential issued by the pilgrim office in St Jean Pied De Port but only in French.I have another credential issued by the Association Saintaise Charente Maritime and they are also on the back page but once again only in French.I agree with you that not all French Associations do this as I have one from Bordeaux but no regulations .
Keep in mind that this probably has nothing to do with a "judgement" of the pilgrim's worth. It relates to the fact that the donativo is staffed by volunteers, the building may be closed during delivery hours, and they do not want an unsecured depository of backpacks outside their doors.Its the donativo ones that usually reject the transported ones. Some even have signs stating there policy of rejection even if beds are available.
Haha, yes...but since when did that stop anyone from being ignorant?Really? They are printed in plain sight on every credential - you don't have to search for them.
In the fine print, perhaps?There should be a disclaimer instructing us all to read the fine print
In the fine print, perhaps?
What you want to consider is not whether the alburgue will allow you in, but will they receive your backpack when delivered by the transport service. Most municipal/religious alburgues will not accept delivery of a bag. Sometimes the transport service can suggest another drop off point where you can fetch your pack then go to the alburgue ( sometimes a nearby bar, sometimes not quite so near by ) . One solution to consider is a compromise where you pool the heavier items from your individual packs and send one bag ahead. This lightens everyone's load and is easier on the wallet. At day's end, you only need to go fetch the bag of belongings from where it was delivered. Something to consider.....I have read in some blogs that entry to some albergues might be refused if they don't carry their bags and use a "vehicle support service" such as a taxi to bring backsacks. My girlfriends and I are going to do the Camino next spring for a friend's 50th birthday and we are split about how to go -- backpacks or no backpacks -- although we want to stay in the albergues.
I would like to travel light (this is not my first canoe trip) and not overpack the backpack, carry our own backpacks and just stay in the albergues. I have some experience backpacking in the Costa Rican rainforest (Osa Peninsula) and we carried everything we needed for 3 days and managed just fine.
Is there a list of albergues that will or won't accept pilgrims who use vehicle support?
Thanks,
I hope the answer is that we must carry our packs and not be reliant on taxis.
Keep in mind that this probably has nothing to do with a "judgement" of the pilgrim's worth. It relates to the fact that the donativo is staffed by volunteers, the building may be closed during delivery hours, and they do not want an unsecured depository of backpacks outside their doors.
Of course we will never be free from others judging our actions. But one of the things that draws many back to the Camino is that we tend to be less subject to it there, in a more supportive and less judgmental community. One of the lessons that many seem to take from their camino experience is to be less judgmental. Far be it from me to judge those who don't take that particular lesson, though. After all, another lesson that many people seem to take is to pare down the amount of "stuff" they own, and as I mentioned in another thread, I never got the hang of that one.Once again a thread returns to the well-worn "it's my Camino" and "no one has any right to judge". I wonder if I can beg the moderators' indulgence for a personal observation on this business of "judging" and all the little variants and derivatives of the "J" word?
As humans beings we are all meant to be rational and reflective creatures: we are after all even named Homo sapiens. Given the huge diversity of experiences which feed into that personal reflection it would be astonishing if our conclusions on any given topic were ever unanimous. We can and often do disagree very strongly on topics which are important to us. In my own opinion to argue that "no one has a right to judge my actions" is an untenable position: in effect a declaration that I am personally infallible in the sense that my deeds and words are not subject to external scrutiny and are necessarily correct simply because I say so. In what field of human life is that true?
If we accept that others may legitimately reach different conclusions from our own then I feel that we should also accept their right to express them - though always in a polite manner. Disagreement is not necessarily discourtesy. I would suggest that as rational beings we should consider a contradictory position dispassionately and assess the arguments being put forward. Unless we are profoundly arrogant I think that we must always be open to the possibility that our own words and actions have been flawed. There is no obligation to agree with a contrary position but I feel that a rational response to one should be analysis and reflection rather than a knee-jerk defensive anger. If one's words or actions have been considered and justified why should we be unduly troubled by a contradictory position?
I do see your point. I do not particularly relish contradiction or opposition myself. If only because it forces me to consider again whatever I may have said which is apparently so controversial. But how far down the road of individual self-censorship should we go in a drive for inclusiveness? I do not think that there is any collective orthodoxy being enforced by this community. If I post my own opinion on a subject and another member of the forum then offers their personal contrary opinion does that mean that my voice is not welcome in the wider group? Other than the moderators occasionally gently reminding us of the basic rules of the forum I do not think that anyone here speaks for "our community". We speak for ourselves. You cannot realistically expect to please all of the people all of the time. If you are not prepared to accept that then I think that a public forum with a large and diverse membership is not the place to post your views.Certainly, we can judge and disparage the actions and choices of others, so long as we are ready to accept that, when doing so as a community, we are likely making them feel unwelcome in our community.
I completely agree that there is no collective orthodoxy being enforced by the community and that we should all be able to post our own opinions. I posted an opinion contrary to yours, after all. But I think we can recognize that a group is not merely a collection of individuals and that group dynamics sometimes do come into play.I do see your point. I do not particularly relish contradiction or opposition myself. If only because it forces me to consider again whatever I may have said which is apparently so controversial. But how far down the road of individual self-censorship should we go in a drive for inclusiveness? I do not think that there is any collective orthodoxy being enforced by this community. If I post my own opinion on a subject and another member of the forum then offers their personal contrary opinion does that mean that my voice is not welcome in the wider group? Other than the moderators occasionally gently reminding us of the basic rules of the forum I do not think that anyone here speaks for "our community". We speak for ourselves. You cannot realistically expect to please all of the people all of the time. If you are not prepared to accept that then I think that a public forum with a large and diverse membership is not the place to post your views.
I have re-read the first 30 or so posts, and I wouldn't have made the assessment @Annet2020 did earlier. There might be something I am not seeing in them that triggered her concern, but I couldn't find it.That was what the person who reopened this thread seemed to see in the first 25 or so posts. (I can't say for sure how warranted that perception was. I admit to not going back and re-reading them.) Posting this type of response when it has been posted many times before doesn't add to the discussion and may contribute to people feeling unwelcome.
It's a characteristics of Compostela mainly, I think, that pilgrim is short for long distance pilgrim on foot where long distance is anything over 100 km in the eyes of the Cathedral authorities and longer distances in the eyes of others. The Cathedral doesn't really say or publish much about it, in contrast to the immense output by us, the media, the camino associations and the guidebook industry, but when you look closely you see that the Cathedral, too, refers to pilgrims who qualify for a Compostela for example are those "who make pilgrimage in the old fashioned way". But they, too, regard those who come by plane, train, bus or car as pilgrims when they come with pilgrimage intentions to visit the place of the Apostle James.If you fly to Rome and take a taxi to St Peter's to pray at the tomb, the Pope still calls you a pilgrim.
I agree. A growing tendency to regard "qualifying for a Compostela" and "being a pilgrim" as identical. And as the cathedral has introduced ever more restrictive conditions for receiving a Compostela over the years then the scope for more divisive argument over the precise meaning of "pilgrim" also increasesbut when you look closely you see that the Cathedral, too, refers to pilgrims who qualify for a Compostela for example are those "who make pilgrimage in the old fashioned way".
Although to say that bicigrinos are making their pilgrimage in the old fashioned way is, perhaps, to stretch the term. Not knocking or disparaging bicigrinos as pilgrims at all, but the bicycle is a relatively modern invention which doesn't predate the automobile by much, if at all.It's a characteristics of Compostela mainly, I think, that pilgrim is short for long distance pilgrim on foot where long distance is anything over 100 km in the eyes of the Cathedral authorities and longer distances in the eyes of others. The Cathedral doesn't really say or publish much about it, in contrast to the immense output by us, the media, the camino associations and the guidebook industry, but when you look closely you see that the Cathedral, too, refers to pilgrims who qualify for a Compostela for example are those "who make pilgrimage in the old fashioned way". But they, too, regard those who come by plane, train, bus or car as pilgrims when they come with pilgrimage intentions to visit the place of the Apostle James.
Surely it depends on ones age as well - I am 80 and think it should be acceptable to send on my ack!I was never of a mind NOT to talk to someone on the camino on the basis of whether or not they carried their big pack.That said, I didn't think I had much in common with those who had their pack sent ahead.
I certainly wouldn't have sought them out of an evening, which is rather ironic, given that I am about to embark on the second Camino Salvado, where everyone's big packs will be sent ahead.
Regards
I don't think age has anything to do with it. Perhaps you should read my more recent contribution here, where I discussed the post you have quoted. I come to the conclusion it is acceptable for anyone to use a pack transport service.Surely it depends on ones age as well - I am 80 and think it should be acceptable to send on my ack!
@danielle aird quoted a post of mine from 2011 a little earlier, and it made me wonder whether my views on this had changed in the intervening time, and why.
While I still hold to the view I expressed then that I wouldn't shun someone because they had not carried their own pack, I think that there are other dimensions to this topic.
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Good point. I wonder at what moment in time they included bicigrinos and/or when the first person had the idea to hacer el Camino on a bicycle. My guess is: sometime between 1970 and 1990 ☺ . And what kind of mental acrobatics were performed at the time to include them. I bet the first ones were a group of men clad in Lycra and belonging to a cycling club. I like to think that that it's a nod to the immense popularity of bicycle racing in Spain.Although to say that bicigrinos are making their pilgrimage in the old fashioned way is, perhaps, to stretch the term. Not knocking or disparaging bicigrinos as pilgrims at all, but the bicycle is a relatively modern invention which doesn't predate the automobile by much, if at all.
I guess it all comes down to what is meant by "support of a car" and what was intended to be accomplished by including that provision in the credencial. Support of a car is a very broad phrase. If someone drives me to where I start my pilgrimage and I don't walk from my doorstep, is my pilgrimage in some way supported by a car? If I get a ride from a stranger on one day of my pilgrimage, is that day's walk performed "with the support of a car" or is the whole pilgrimage so tainted and I cannot in good conscience use albergues for the rest of my pilgrimage? And those are just examples where I am actually riding in the car. What if I am walking and carrying my backpack but my significant other is not and is driving each day and we meet up in the evening. Clearly the significant other cannot use the albergues but what about me? In a sense, I am being accompanied by a car.I don't think age has anything to do with it. Perhaps you should read my more recent contribution here, where I discussed the post you have quoted. I come to the conclusion it is acceptable for anyone to use a pack transport service.
However, by doing so, I raise the prospect that you are performing [your] pilgrimage with the support of a car [and] must seek separate accommodations from the Pilgrims' Shelters. (extract from my 2010 credencial issued by the Pilgrim Office at SJPP.) You can follow the link below, I haven't copied the full post into this response.
@David Tallan, thank you for proposing some interesting scenarios to consider in thinking about this. I am inclined to think that the one both you and @Bradypus have suggested, where a car is not available to take one on at the end of the day, is worth considering. In contrast, your suggestion of a scenario of being accompanied seems superficial, and you should perhaps consider un-partnering from someone who left you carrying everything while they drove from place to place.I guess it all comes down to what is meant by "support of a car" and what was intended to be accomplished by including that provision in the credencial. Support of a car is a very broad phrase. If someone drives me to where I start my pilgrimage and I don't walk from my doorstep, is my pilgrimage in some way supported by a car? If I get a ride from a stranger on one day of my pilgrimage, is that day's walk performed "with the support of a car" or is the whole pilgrimage so tainted and I cannot in good conscience use albergues for the rest of my pilgrimage? And those are just examples where I am actually riding in the car. What if I am walking and carrying my backpack but my significant other is not and is driving each day and we meet up in the evening. Clearly the significant other cannot use the albergues but what about me? In a sense, I am being accompanied by a car.
Of course, one could also ask what is meant by "Pilgrims' Shelters. Is this referring to municipal albergues, parochial albergues, associaltion albergues, private albergues, any, all some combination?
It is all very vague and broad. To help understand how we should interpret and apply it, it would be helpful to understand the intent. Another poster here in the forum has posited that the intent behind "support of a car" was to refer to those who had a car available to take them elsewhere if the albergue was full. If that is the case, then it wouldn't include people who use a pack transport service. That is certainly one possible interpretation.
Another possible view of the intent is that it is meant to separate those who work harder and struggle more from those who don't, the idea being that car support reduces labour. That seems to be the view that your interpretation takes. It also seems to be the view taken by those albergues that accept pack transport where there is some sort of medical "justification", with presumably the idea that whatever medical condition the pilgrim is suffering from, it imposes a labour of suffering equivalent to carrying a pack and makes the pilgrim equally ndeserving of a spot in the pilgrim shelter. It is also a possible interpretation, but not the only one (see above). Personally, I prefer this one a little less, because it puts us in the position of judges of another's labour and suffering, and I would prefer to avoid that.
A third possible intent is to preserve the "purity" of the pilgrimages. There are those who do it "properly", on foot or bicycle or horse, carrying their baggage and those who are not "pilgrims doing it in the old fashioned way", with the use or support of a vehicle. The former can use the pilgrim shelters and get a compostela and the latter cannot. Needless to say, for any who have read my posts elsewhere in this forum, I like this idea of the intent least, because I don't believe in "pure" or "proper" or "real" pilgrims in this fashion.
All of which is to say that someone may use the baggage transport services and still feel that they are not contravening the rules in the credencial, if their different understanding of the intent of those rules leads them to a different understanding of what the vague terms refer to.
Just to mention that the idea of being accompanied by someone who drives while the pilgrim walks is not one I made up for the purpose of argument but rather a scenario I have seen proposed several times on these forums by people who have spouses with no interest in walking the Camino but who wish to accompany their partner in Spain.@David Tallan, thank you for proposing some interesting scenarios to consider in thinking about this. I am inclined to think that the one both you and @Bradypus have suggested, where a car is not available to take one on at the end of the day, is worth considering. In contrast, your suggestion of a scenario of being accompanied seems superficial, and you should perhaps consider un-partnering from someone who left you carrying everything while they drove from place to place.
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As a simple test, it appears to me that if an albergue doesn't accept deliveries by a transport service, then they are applying the condition on the credencial that pilgrims who chose this option should arrange other accommodation. Arranging by artifice to appear at such an albergue as if one had carried their pack would be to thumb one's nose at this condition on the credencial. Further, in this scenario, the person using such an artifice clearly knew that the albergue wasn't accepting pilgrims using pack transport, and could have arranged for other accommodation. So if they had observed the condition, they wouldn't have needed to find other accommodation should they have found themselves rejected by, for example, a municipal or association albergue.
On a blustery Nov day on the Le Puy, I walked 36 km to get to a town with open accommodation, arriving at about 7-7:30 pm just as it was getting dark. I hitched a ride for about a km on a farm truck that was escorting a tractor home, in an effort to beat sunset.
By the rules, I guess I should have been required to sleep outdoors.
Indeed it is all very vague. Whose rules, whose albergues, whose intent? The text of the Cathedral's credencial states that it is only for pilgrims who wish to make pilgrimage with a Christian attitude ... that one of its two purposes is giving access to the albergues that offer the Christian hospitality of the Camino ... and that organised groups with a support vehicle should not stay in albergues de peregrinos, without defining what these are.It is all very vague and broad. To help understand how we should interpret and apply it, it would be helpful to understand the intent.
The solution is obvious. Set up a pony express for backpacks and use horses to ship them ahead. After all, if pilgrims can ride horses, surely their backpacks can, too.
Personally, I'm not seeing what similarity this has to someone sending a pack forward, e.g. to a bar, collecting it from there and then walking with their pack to an albergue that doesn't accept packs delivered by taxi. I wouldn't see it as a dilemma, but if you do, it is up to you how you deal with it.On a blustery Nov day on the Le Puy, I walked 36 km to get to a town with open accommodation, arriving at about 7-7:30 pm just as it was getting dark. I hitched a ride for about a km on a farm truck that was escorting a tractor home, in an effort to beat sunset.
@David Tallan, I do recall seeing a discussion like that a little while ago. I didn't realize the walker was going to be carrying all their gear, and not having any of it carried in the accompanying vehicle. I still have difficulty imagining that!Just to mention that the idea of being accompanied by someone who drives while the pilgrim walks is not one I made up for the purpose of argument but rather a scenario I have seen proposed several times on these forums by people who have spouses with no interest in walking the Camino but who wish to accompany their partner in Spain.
Either way the pilgrim is being assisted by a vehicle (receiving support). Different kinds of assistance, to be sure, but the credencial doesn't specify what kind of support is meant.Personally, I'm not seeing what similarity this has to someone sending a pack forward, e.g. to a bar, collecting it from there and then walking with their pack to an albergue that doesn't accept packs delivered by taxi. I wouldn't see it as a dilemma, but if you do, it is up to you how you deal with it.
It wasn't a dilemna for me, as I believe any card carrying medieval pilgrim would have accepted any and all free rides he could get, and a tractor convoy is really the modern equivalent of a wagon ride. But I was vehicle assisted and should be excluded by the theory posited about that.Personally, I'm not seeing what similarity this has to someone sending a pack forward, e.g. to a bar, collecting it from there and then walking with their pack to an albergue that doesn't accept packs delivered by taxi. I wouldn't see it as a dilemma, but if you do, it is up to you how you deal with it.
The question I posed was quite clear, and the example you proposed of a one-off assistance is clearly not what I suggested might create a concern. Neither, for that matter, would being in @Kanga's position of getting kangaroo assistance.It wasn't a dilemna for me, as I believe any card carrying medieval pilgrim would have accepted any and all free rides he could get, and a tractor convoy is really the modern equivalent of a wagon ride. But I was vehicle assisted and should be excluded by the theory posited about that.
Where does one draw the line?
I plan on walking the camino using backpack-transport. Without that possibility I never would have been able to do it, mainly because my back wouldn't allow it. But apparently a lot of people think you're not a real pilgrim and it's fair to be sent away at an albergue if you don't carry all your luggage.
In my own opinion to argue that "no one has a right to judge my actions" is an untenable position: in effect a declaration that I am personally infallible in the sense that my deeds and words are not subject to external scrutiny and are necessarily correct simply because I say so. In what field of human life is that true?
As for the mantra 'its my Camino'? It is indeed
One of the lessons that many seem to take from their camino experience is to be less judgmental.
Although to say that bicigrinos are making their pilgrimage in the old fashioned way is, perhaps, to stretch the term. Not knocking or disparaging bicigrinos as pilgrims at all, but the bicycle is a relatively modern invention which doesn't predate the automobile by much, if at all.
I believe any card carrying medieval pilgrim would have accepted any and all free rides he could get
Reaffirming that then, as now, pilgrims came in all sorts of shapes and sizes and intentions.Those doing their Camino in the most penitential spirit most certainly would not have done so. These were people who left home deliberately without any money, and choosing to live entirely on charity, and in a spirit of great personal sacrifice.
I am over the guilt. I'm not getting younger and this back has to last a bit longer. I gave my back a rest day, when I reached Rabanal my pack wasn't there, nor the welcome mat. I had a wonderful meal and conversations in Foncebedon(sp). I don't know what I missed. Life was and is good.You are right Ian, to say that the Refugio Guacelmo doesn't accept pilgrims who have had their pack transported for them. Actually these packs are delivered to another Albergue in Rabanal where the Pilgrim's have to go and collect - and I guess, usually stay there. Regarding the use of mobile phones in the field on the property, I wasn't aware of this rule and I was hospitalero there for 18 days! Yes, they do serve you a nice English cup of tea and biscuits!
That said, there can be many reasons why a pilgrim might send his pack ahead by a transport system: an on-going physical disability, injury while on the Camino, feeling ill that day, age, pregnancy (yes, there are some pregnant women walking the Camino), plus of course, the ones who simply want to make the Camino an easy hike! Most of the reasons are difficult to understand when a pilgrim having already walked hundreds of kms, carrying his burden on his back, is overtook by a couple or more walkers rapidly striding out, eager to reach their destination of the day asap! It's difficult to judge.
Then there are the group who arrive by bus, get dropped off a couple of kms before the village, take up their pack, walk into the village, have a refreshment and then give up their pack to be delivered further ahead. I have witnessed this once in Hornillos.
Personally, like you Ian, I would feel guilty to send my pack ahead - unless for some serious phhysical disability. I consider that my pack is part of me and part of MY camino. Anne
Wow, I tried to read through the replies and you received very few real answers. I have walked seven Camino's and will tell you not to worry either way. There are some albergues that do not take baggage transport, but most do. They are mostly parochial or municipal albergues. If you need to use baggage transport, you will not need a taxi there are multiple baggage companies that pick up/ drop off at the albergues. Envelopes are provided at most albergues. They are all aware of the albergues that do not accept baggage transport. Sometimes they have made arrangements to leave bags at a local hotel or bar. I suggest that you try to train and carry you bag as it will give you more flexibility, but after injuring my back I know that we truly never walk in another man's shoes and should not judge.I have read in some blogs that entry to some albergues might be refused if they don't carry their bags and use a "vehicle support service" such as a taxi to bring backsacks. My girlfriends and I are going to do the Camino next spring for a friend's 50th birthday and we are split about how to go -- backpacks or no backpacks -- although we want to stay in the albergues.
I would like to travel light (this is not my first canoe trip) and not overpack the backpack, carry our own backpacks and just stay in the albergues. I have some experience backpacking in the Costa Rican rainforest (Osa Peninsula) and we carried everything we needed for 3 days and managed just fine.
Is there a list of albergues that will or won't accept pilgrims who use vehicle support?
Thanks,
I hope the answer is that we must carry our packs and not be reliant on taxis.
Hmm, I distinctly remember on Oct 23, 2013, I took a taxi from Astorga to Rabanal - not knowing anything about that policy - and was allowed to stay at Gaucelmo. I WAS asked if I had walked, and I said I hadn't. The hositalero said he thought he had heard a car door close... I said, yes, that was probably me. He mentioned their policy, but I was allowed to stay the night at Gaucelmo. There were four of us pilgrims that night in addition to the two hospis. Gratitudes...Hola @C clearly, possibly but I know for a fact that Gaucelmo in Rabanal (operated by CSJ in the UK) does specifically exclude "transporters" and it has nothing to with unsecured backpacks. Its just their policy.
I have read in some blogs that entry to some albergues might be refused if they don't carry their bags and use a "vehicle support service" such as a taxi to bring backsacks. My girlfriends and I are going to do the Camino next spring for a friend's 50th birthday and we are split about how to go -- backpacks or no backpacks -- although we want to stay in the albergues.
I would like to travel light (this is not my first canoe trip) and not overpack the backpack, carry our own backpacks and just stay in the albergues. I have some experience backpacking in the Costa Rican rainforest (Osa Peninsula) and we carried everything we needed for 3 days and managed just fine.
Is there a list of albergues that will or won't accept pilgrims who use vehicle support?
Thanks,
I hope the answer is that we must carry our packs and not be reliant on taxis.
I'm surprised that you found one of them. Where, when?There is only 1 true pilgrim:
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