Deteriorating Behavior

[pepi]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

 

[VNwalking]

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

I might not have been able to contain my reaction - you clearly did very well being patient and polite.

People who've been around long enough to really see a trend (if one exists) would be better people to answer your question. There may be more entitlement - but I haven't seen it much on the less-travelled caminos.

 

[wayfarer]

There have always a percentage of people who do this. A big problem for restaurant owners here pre covid was that people would make group bookings at the weekend for maybe 6 or 8 restaurants but only show up for 1 depending on what the group decided on the night. This behaviour is deplorable IMO but an easy fix is to take a non returnable deposit upon booking, it would also solve the problem for albergues and of the love lorn pilgrim.

 

[oursonpolaire]

Like @VNwalking I haven't seen this on the less-travelled Caminos, but I have frequently run into the free albergues syndrome on the Francese-- my correction of this eerror gets some very frosty and disgusted looks but many pilgrims appear glad to have some information. Over the years, I have made presentations at a few dozen pilgrim training workshops and have been very clear that donativo does not mean free, and have encouraged prosperous pilgrims to top up their donations to help keep the system running. And again, have made it crystal-clear that reservations must be kept or cancelled, as not doing so deprives other pilgrims of accommodation and is really quite mean to family-run inns.

However, many pilgrims have never attended training sessions run by associations, nor have they even sat down with veteran pilgrims to get background-- with luck and gentle coaching by veterans, they get the pilgrim vibe and move along in the spirit of the Camino.

Judging by various fora, there seem to be a lot of prospective pilgrims who don't have any basic information at all-- I can't say if it's getting worse.

 

[NorthernLight]

I suspect there is more selfishness in the general population than there used to be, so it’s not just a camino trend.

 

[mspath]

For other recent posts re "changing times" read this earlier thread

 

[Camino Chrissy]

@pepi, you sound like a very helpful and kind soul. How sad your kindness and generous spirit were taken advantage of, only to be "tossed out" and unappreciated later on.
On a lighter note, you have been through much healthwise, and it's great to read you had an excellent recent Camino.

 

[C clearly]

I suspect that as the Camino receives more and more interest from a wider audience, the special customs and understandings of the smaller group of pilgrims in the past, will become diluted. Let's face it - it is becoming mass tourism. The experience is now a case of "I am just 1 of 500,000 people per year" rather than "I am 1 of a small community of like-minded pilgrims."

I am not saying if this is a good or bad thing overall. But it does change things from a rather exclusive group to wide-open participation, with expected and unexpected pros and cons.

In any case, there is no excuse for that person's bad behaviour. I think I would tell him so, if I could.

 

[linkster]

@Pepe You were a good peregrino! I understand your frustration, but I think I was pretty irresponsible when I was young. Don't regret trying to educate and help those young peregrinos.

By the way, I was looking for a bottom bunk in a room with a view away from the ice machine and elevator in the next town for tomorrow night and was wondering if you know a guy who knows a guy that might have one available?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

@Pepe You were a good peregrino! I understand your frustration, but I think I was pretty irresponsible when I was young. Don't regret trying to educate and help those young peregrinos.

By the way, I was looking for a bottom bunk in a room with a view away from the ice machine and elevator in the next town for tomorrow night and was wondering if you know a guy who knows a guy that might have one available?

I love humour. Thanks for a good laugh!
That said, I doubt I would actually be willing to book a room on booking com for a stranger, even with free cancellation options. My kindness does not quite extend that far...youth is no exception or a good excuse imo.

 

[Former member 91017]

I don't know enough about the couple from Costa Rica... if they were able to travel it sounds like they are elite and not broke, but young people from elite families can have extremely tight budgets and the idea of the Donativos is that those of us who can afford the regular amounts should put in a regular amount so that the young, the under/unemployed, the pensioners on limited income can, indeed, stay without paying anything if they are up against a wall.

FWIW, I *tried* in 2014 to put 10 euros in at the Sto. Domingo Donativo and the nun in the booth taking money gave me one of my 5 euro notes back. And when I arrived in Astorga we went to the parochial there and they were telling everyone 5 euros... not more. I wondered if it was an effort to avoid making those with fewer euros to give feel embarrassed about their circumstances.

As to the skirt-chaser.... I am as horrified by that aspect as by the no-shows pulled with albergues. I really, really am nauseated by those of any age who treat camino as though it's a hook-up adventure.

 

[PilgrimJames]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

Can some people be so dumb? Who pays to keep the donativo open? Just think of the name- DONATION! I've seen this behavior and am totally amazed at the entitlement some people feel. Selfish and very sad.

 

[SioCamino]

I'm currently walking on the CF having started in the Aragonés.... I've stayed in a few donativos. Two (Canfranc and Arrés) on the aragonés and then the parochial in Logroño, a private one in Grañón () and the parochial in Tosantos last night. It was notable in Logroño that the hospitalero said that the stay was free... I had to ask in the morning where the donation box was and i think i was the only one who had left anything (well there was maybe €4 there before i added my notes).... I don't think that the 2 young guys staying even knew about the donation?
Last night in Tosantos the donation box was pointed out... But i think the pilgrims staying there understood the approach.... As i expect (hope) was the case in Canfranc and Arrés.....

Sorry i don't want to come off judgemental... This is my first time on the francés since 2015 so the whole dynamic /feel of it is so different to the Aragonés /VDLP. I think the challenge for donativos is so much harder on the popular routes.

 

[Caminogoat]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

Hi and Congratulations! May I ask you a question about the COVID test requirement before you return to the US? Where were you able to get it? I am leaving on 10/11 to walk the Norte, and returning on 11/15. Right now no test is needed to enter Spain if fully vaccinated, but need test before returning. I was wondering how easy it was to get a test in Spain.

 

[Paladina]

I recall one private albergue where the hospitalera dumped the donation box on the desk in front of the pilgrim requesting accommodation. Heavy-handed but effective: no first-time pilgrim could misunderstand the message.

 

[RRat]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

Nothing new. Imagine the original pilgrims had bandits to deal with.

 

[Sheila Kenny]

@Pepe You were a good peregrino! I understand your frustration, but I think I was pretty irresponsible when I was young. Don't regret trying to educate and help those young peregrinos.

By the way, I was looking for a bottom bunk in a room with a view away from the ice machine and elevator in the next town for tomorrow night and was wondering if you know a guy who knows a guy that might have one available?

Hola charo - eres con Atleti?

 

[Zordmot]

My experience on CF was that if you didn’t show for your reservation by 4:00 you would lose it and the next pilgrim there in-person could have it. It seemed that every place was fully booked out by 5 pm, every bed full, everyone happy. The system takes into account that people will be no-shows but turns that negative into a positive. I think it’s a rather good system. I didn’t make any reservations and I always stayed in my first, second, or third choice.

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

This could be part of changing human behaviors due to the pandemic. At least I hope so. Still, it will take some years for it to correct itself.

 

[naplesdon]

Nothing new. Imagine the original pilgrims had bandits to deal with.

According to Rebakah Scott the former hospital (as in centuries ago) operated by priest someplace near Moratinos had a graveyard full of pilgrims that the hospitleros had killed to loot them of all of their belongs. Maybe a notice like that at donativos would be an effective deterrent, it would be much more effective than: no shirt, no shoes, no backpack - hasta la vista, baby. We encountered a few of those at San Anton and Oliver was very effective at dealing with them, much to Reb's chagrin.

 

[naplesdon]

This could be part of changing human behaviors due to the pandemic. At least I hope so. Still, it will take some years for it to correct itself.

I am not sure what you are referring to but maybe a credit card scanner at the front door that randomly charges between 2 and 20 euros could be employed as that "modern" post Covid correction.

 

[Phoenix]

Rather than a deterioration of behaviors, could it be an infiltration of behaviors/attitudes we see in other places where large numbers of people travel to? For example, like the refuse left on Mt Everest, or the nonchalant attitude of some who say, "I'll just pop on down to Africa and climb Kili; it's just a big hill, right?" without any training or knowledge of necessary acclimatization at high altitude (who then end up needing to be carried down the mountain).

As the Caminos have become a tourist destination/activity for many rather than a pilgrimage, we shouldn't be surprised that ignorance, carelessness, or whatever one cares to label it has become commonplace. Just as in the non-Camino world in which we live, it seems all we can do, from a tactical perspective, is to try to solve the problems right in front of us (as Pepi did), and from a strategic POV, to "not be like them."

 

[naplesdon]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

There have always been moochers in every walk of life, no pun intended.
If there is no carte de prix and it looks free, feels free ergo it must be free.
How many kind hearted village folk who put out fruit and drinks hoping to compensated by donitivos for their efforts do you think give up every year?

 

[lt56ny]

Like @VNwalking I haven't seen this on the less-travelled Caminos, but I have frequently run into the free albergues syndrome on the Francese-- my correction of this eerror gets some very frosty and disgusted looks but many pilgrims appear glad to have some information. Over the years, I have made presentations at a few dozen pilgrim training workshops and have been very clear that donativo does not mean free, and have encouraged prosperous pilgrims to top up their donations to help keep the system running. And again, have made it crystal-clear that reservations must be kept or cancelled, as not doing so deprives other pilgrims of accommodation and is really quite mean to family-run inns.

However, many pilgrims have never attended training sessions run by associations, nor have they even sat down with veteran pilgrims to get background-- with luck and gentle coaching by veterans, they get the pilgrim vibe and move along in the spirit of the Camino.

Judging by various fora, there seem to be a lot of prospective pilgrims who don't have any basic information at all-- I can't say if it's getting worse.

I have a feeling the reason you have encountered this on the CF (as have I) is exactly what you said, a few "pilgrims" do not care. I have met a very few pilgrims who have told me they are walking because it is a cheap and fun holiday. Fine that is there business. I have no basis except my own observation that lesser traveled caminos draw pilgrims who have made more than one or even many pilgrimages in the past. I have been in touch with some fellow forum pilgrims who have or are walking the VDLP. I start next week. I think everyone I have spoken or written with have walked more than one or two caminos. Some many more.
The mentoring of new pilgrims is wonderful. I spent hours with a woman I did not know about 2 months before my first camino. I have passed my knowledge on 3 times face to face before their camino, and many more times on the camino with new pilgrims. Many think of it as our responsibility. Both of your examples are very disheartening. Hopefully this is not a growing trend.

 

[Gerard Griffin]

May I gently advocate tolerance? Most of the fine people who are on this forum are of a certain "demographic", which I'll not define. But the Camino has broad shoulders, easily accomodating all these disparate types of people. One of the things I love about the Camino is that people who never meet one another in the "real" world, and would hate each other were they to do so, encounter one another here.

Rich, poor, cruel, kind, left, right, old, young ... Tourigrini, hobogrini, sightseers, foodies, cyclistas, jacotransers, groups, locals, foreigners, happy, sad, affluent, desperate. The Camino is like a huge church where the Christian life, whether one is a believer or not, is the modus vivendi adopted by all. Welcoming and talking to strangers about the deep issues of one's personal and spiritual and intellectual life, silenced otherwise than here.

Of course we all scoff at each other in secret and in our own groups. That's part of the fun of it all. We judge and despise: the bums versus the Paradori, the skirt-chasers against the pious, the organised and the spontaneous, the walkers and the ebikers, the locals and everyone else. That's part of the fun of it all. We rub together and get to know each other and learn how superficial our judgements are. Sometimes we put 20 in the donativo box, sometimes 5, sometimes nothing. Sometimes we take cash out and pray that no-one's looking. That's the Camino. It brings us together. That's what it's for in the past, now and forever. Is there anywhere else?

 

[naplesdon]

Rather than a deterioration of behaviors, could it be an infiltration of behaviors/attitudes we see in other places where large numbers of people travel to? For example, like the refuse left on Mt Everest, or the nonchalant attitude of some who say, "I'll just pop on down to Africa and climb Kili; it's just a big hill, right?" without any training or knowledge of necessary acclimatization at high altitude (who then end up needing to be carried down the mountain).

As the Caminos have become a tourist destination/activity for many rather than a pilgrimage, we shouldn't be surprised that ignorance, carelessness, or whatever one cares to label it has become commonplace. Just as in the non-Camino world in which we live, it seems all we can do, from a tactical perspective, is to try to solve the problems right in front of us (as Pepi did), and from a strategic POV, to "not be like them."

What you have said could not be more true, but once again it is an issue of preaching to the choir.
Those people don't read this Forum or educate themselves in intricacies of being on this pilgrimage.
The random chance of running in someone on or off, before or after the Camino who is "bouffing" the system is minuscule.
There are a number of people who want to take advantage of it as a "cheap" tour through Spain. They probably think they are suffering more carrying a backpack every day and not having meals served to them on their regular schedule is a bigger sacrifice than learning the norms of behavior on Spain.

 

[VNwalking]

Sometimes we put 20 in the donativo box, sometimes 5, sometimes nothing. Sometimes we take cash out and pray that no-one's looking. That's the Camino

Ummm.
Theft is nothing to do with the values of the camino, last I looked. It happens becuse we're humans, sadly, and not angels. But that doesn't mean 'it's the camino.'

 

[Former member 91017]

Ummm.
Theft is nothing to do with the values of the camino, last I looked. It happens becuse we're humans, sadly, and not angels. But that doesn't mean 'it's the camino.'

Yeah... I really don't think that treating a pilgrimage as a hook-up adventure is "the camino" either. Highway robbery, bar-fights... yes, that history and all manner of other nastiness is older than the road... but I do think it's not "just a holiday" and that we are meant to respect the endeavour, the people and culture that make it possible... and the cultural (religious, spiritual, linguistic, political...) foundation of these routes.
Consumerist, McDonaldized, bucket-list style travel must be the very least rewarding mode in which to approach the road...

 

[Tincatinker]

@Gerard Griffin I’ll agree the Camino has “broad shoulders”. It needs such to carry the burden of “us”, “them”, and all the others. Personally I’ve never behaved on Camino

Oops, EDIT: I’ve never behaved on Camino any different to how I behave in life. Sadly that tendency may well be expressed by those copping most criticism in this thread

 

[Steve Taylor]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

I make a lot of advance bookings, but I never fail to show up, most especially when there’s no penalty charge for not notifying them beforehand. Even when I use Booking. com, I try to cancel as far as possible in advance. It’s good manners, isn’t it?

 

[Sherpa47]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

So sad when folk abuse the donativos by not not paying anything. So sad the folk abuse the good intentions of others.

 

[good_old_shoes]

"Sometimes we put 20 in the donativo box, sometimes 5, sometimes nothing. Sometimes we take cash out and pray that no-one's looking." (quoting Gerard Griffin, #26).

If I remember correctly, the donativo box in Granon said something like "Give what you can, take what you need". I would never have taken something out, not even in an emergency, but loved the idea. It's just the complete opposite of everything that is normal in our capitalist society. It's what makes the Camino different.

Yes, some people will take advantage of that, no matter how much you educate them about the topic. But what's the alternative? End of the donativo system and hotels only? That would mean no more diversity. Wealthy tourists only.


From personal experience: Please don't be too judgemental about those who only give a small or no donativo. You don't know their background.

Not proud of it, but on my first Camino I was one of those who relied on donativos, sometimes with no donation, sometimes just a few coins or 5 Euros. There was just no other way, unless I would have slept in the streets. Yes, I could have stayed at home until I had saved more money. That was not an option, for very personal reasons.

Not everyone struggling on a low budget is a tourist on a cheap vacation.

 

[Cdancer]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

Hopefully they will figure it out along The Way
At some point every one has to reflect an epiphany can happen
We never know what happens to the people we meet while walking will they look back and change their behavior? Or not. We should all instruct on proper etiquette if the situation arises
As I both taught and was tutored on the Camino
But in the end it is their Camino
Buen Camino

 

[linkster]

FYI, I looked at my notes from hospitalero training and found this related to the donativo box.

The albergue is free of charge, but we ask that you make a donation in support of the albergue.

The albergue is supported by your generosity, and voluntary work of the hospitaleros.

Please contribute what you feel in your heart, and what your wallet can afford.

 

[alexwalker]

If I remember correctly, the donativo box in Granon said something like "Give what you can, take what you need".

Not exactly:

The text you quote belongs to the equipment chest:

They have a chest of various leftover items in "the reception" besides the kitchen, where pilgrims who have overpacked can leave what they don't need/can't carry, and others can pick up what they need/want. Other places do the same.

The donativo box in that albergue is somewhat hidden. Atleast, I had to ask where it was.

 

[good_old_shoes]

That was the box where I put my donativo in, there was already money in there. It was not a normal "give and take" box for unwanted gear. Or maybe pilgrims just misused it for their donativo? Who knows. I might remember wrong, but pretty sure that was in Granon. The box was out in the open, when you had gotten up the staircase, it was on the left on a table. Please correct me if I remember incorrectly, it was over two years ago.

 

[alexwalker]

View attachment 110645

That was the box where I put my donativo in, there was already money in there. It was not a normal "give and take" box for unwanted gear. Or maybe pilgrims just misused it for their donativo? Who knows. I might remember wrong, but pretty sure that was in Granon. The box was out in the open, when you had gotten up the staircase, it was on the left on a table. Please correct me if I remember incorrectly, it was over two years ago.

You remember correctly, but when I was there (3 times) the donativo box was a small box at a table. But I am an old man and may not remember correctly. Others may chime in here.

 

[domigee]

:

The donativo box in that albergue is somewhat hidden. Atleast, I had to ask where it was.

It wasn’t hidden when I last was there in 2012 and it did have that exact ‘mention’ on it quoted above.
Sad, things have changed

 

[good_old_shoes]

Domigee, the photo of the donation box I posted is from 2019. It was not hidden then, which is why I took the photo. Was so impressed. People at home didn't want to believe me when I told them about it. Maybe the location of the box depends on the current hospitalero?

(sorry, getting off topic...)

 

[Dilbin]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

Well I'm just back from walking the Camino Portuguese and most of those I met were nice thoughtful pilgrims. Unfortunately we met four ladies walking who were very loud and crass. One of them was handing out slips of paper with her Instagram account and asking everyone to pin her on Instagram. They were very vocal in a racist way about immigrants etc and it was difficult to keep my tolerance. Clearly they were on the wrong journey. Fortunately overall this was a once off but even here in Ireland I hear people talking about "doing the Camino" and I always ask myself what are their motives. I'm sorry to hear of your recent disappointment while on the C.F and sincerely hope you will be able to remember all the positives from this and the other Caminos you have travelled. " May the road rise to meet you may the wind be at your back" Daniel

 

[happymarkos]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

I agree especially about the donativos. On the VDLP one large one told me the average was about €4 and they provided evening meals and breakfast.
Shameful really they way it is abused.
Mark

 

[Bob P]

In 2018 on the CF, I saw a repeating group of younger pilgrims that got a big kick out of "palming" their donations and then laughing with each other afterward. I finally asked what would happen if everybody failed to contribute and they started actually donating when I was watching them.
They seemed to be good kids, but weren't thinking through their actions. It was a game to them.

 

[Former member 31048]

(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;

That's true - and a real shame. Our friends (pilgrims also) who have a small gite on the Le Puy Way were for many years happy to take a phone reservation without requiring any deposit but always leaving some beds aside for 'walk ins'. In fact, they preferred it that way trusting that people would arrive on the day or let them know if their plans changed.

However, a few years ago, due to the increase in 'no shows', they felt they had to change their approach including putting some beds / rooms on booking sites to mitigate their financial loss. More than that, they were sad that, thinking their gite was full, they had often turned away other pilgrims who'd arrived after a long day.

Another measure the local gite owners took, via their email group, was to inform gite owners in the towns following of the name of the 'no show' person so the other owners could make informed decisions about whether to accept any reservation from that person. They found that some of these people had made multiple bookings for the same night, obviously to have flexibility in how far they might walk but still have a bed waiting for them.

Our friends have been deeply saddened by these developments.

 

[RRat]

@Pepe You were a good peregrino! I understand your frustration, but I think I was pretty irresponsible when I was young. Don't regret trying to educate and help those young peregrinos.

By the way, I was looking for a bottom bunk in a room with a view away from the ice machine and elevator in the next town for tomorrow night and was wondering if you know a guy who knows a guy that might have one available?

The old peregrineos can also be just as inconsiderate. Sometimes worse because we feel entitled.

 

[brian560]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

I stayed in a Donativo at O Freixo somewhere in the hills near Vigo. The owner had a good ides. Guests paid 5 Euro up front and the rest donation. I think that is the way to go. Donativo's need to cover their costs.

 

[VNwalking]

Another measure the local gite owners took, via their email group, was to inform gite owners in the towns following of the name of the 'no show' person so the other owners could make informed decisions about whether to accept any reservation from that person

Very good idea, so the inconsiderate folks diectly feel the consequences of their actions. That's the main problem - we are transients, so exerting pressure on these people is difficult.

 

[trevorcc]

Like @VNwalking I haven't seen this on the less-travelled Caminos, but I have frequently run into the free albergues syndrome on the Francese-- my correction of this eerror gets some very frosty and disgusted looks but many pilgrims appear glad to have some information. Over the years, I have made presentations at a few dozen pilgrim training workshops and have been very clear that donativo does not mean free, and have encouraged prosperous pilgrims to top up their donations to help keep the system running. And again, have made it crystal-clear that reservations must be kept or cancelled, as not doing so deprives other pilgrims of accommodation and is really quite mean to family-run inns.

However, many pilgrims have never attended training sessions run by associations, nor have they even sat down with veteran pilgrims to get background-- with luck and gentle coaching by veterans, they get the pilgrim vibe and move along in the spirit of the Camino.

Judging by various fora, there seem to be a lot of prospective pilgrims who don't have any basic information at all-- I can't say if it's getting worse.

A simple YES, the may reason I find that to these folk its just a walk and holiday. Some of the question raise my concern if these folk have ever travelled as most is comon sense.

 

[trecile]

I have noticed that some young people think of us older pilgrims as "substitute parents," in that they are used to their parents paying for things, and sometimes might not pay their share when dining together, since the "folks" will be picking up a lot of the tab.

One occasion in particular led me to avoid group dinners at restaurants where many plates are ordered to be shared. I joined a group of about 8 - 10 pilgrims for dinner in Burgos. We ordered a variety of items to share, plus a couple of bottles of wine. I think that only two of us were over 40, and became the default "parents." One young woman saw a friend pass by and invited her to join us. The friend didn't pay, and the young woman who invited her didn't pay for two people. Although everyone had agreed on what to order, when the bill came one pilgrim said, I'm a vegetarian, therefore I'm not paying for any of the dishes that had meat in them. Another objected to the (perfectly normal) sediment in the wine, so he decided that he didn't have to pay for his share of the wine.

At the end, the other responsible adult and I ended up paying at least twice what each other pilgrim paid. It wasn't really very much food, but I ended up contributing around 26 Euros, while some of the "kids" only put in less than 10 Euros.

 

[VNwalking]

when the bill came one pilgrim said, I'm a vegetarian, therefore I'm not paying for any of the dishes that had meat in them.

This seems completely reasonable. But then why in the world did they agree ahead of time before doing a dine&dash?? You have my sympathies, @trecile .

 

[trecile]

This seems completely reasonable. But then why in the world did they agree ahead of time before doing a dine&dash?? You have my sympathies, @trecile .

Exactly. He didn't raise objections when we were ordering, and ate larger shares of the non meat dishes.
It was a learning experience for me - I learned to avoid this type of group dinner where the food is shared, and I try to stick with Pilgrim's menu or menu del día when dining with others, where everyone is responsible for their own meal.

 

[trecile]

To add - I don't mind treating other pilgrims to a meal now and then, but I like it to be my choice.

 

[VNwalking]

To add - I don't mind treating other pilgrims to a meal now and then, but I like it to be my choice.

Exactly. No-one likes being taken advantage of.
Entitlement sucks.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

@Gerard Griffin I’ll agree the Camino has “broad shoulders”. It needs such to carry the burden of “us”, “them”, and all the others. Personally I’ve never behaved on Camino

Oops, EDIT: I’ve never behaved on Camino any different to how I behave in life. Sadly that tendency may well be expressed by those copping most criticism in this thread

I found (find) the Camino to be a wonderful place to be someone other than who I am normally being. It is a bit like the Internet in the real world, no one knows that I am a dog .

 

[Camino Chrissy]

To add - I don't mind treating other pilgrims to a meal now and then, but I like it to be my choice.

I totally agree. I have always traveled with a family member/s, and only ate with other pilgrims at the communal dinners where each person paid ahead of time for their own meal. I always wondered how groups on the Camino dining together worked out the payments. Now I know...a few sometimes get stung which is unfortunately no surprise as I have experienced it myself elsewhere, and it usually does involve younger people contributing much less or nothing.
As parents, most of us enjoy picking up the bill for our kids, even when they reach adulthood, but a Camino "family" is completely different.

 

[simeon]

I suspect there is more selfishness in the general population than there used to be, so it’s not just a camino trend.

Well, I think sometimes we are just more attuned to it than other times.

 

[dick bird]

https://elpais.com/sociedad/ecoembes-espacio-eco/2021-10-08/la-familia-gallega-que-hace-el-camino-de-santiago-al-reves.html?autoplay=1

A little antidote to the (perhaps justified) misanthropy here. It's an El Pais video about a Galician family walking the camino backwards, bit by bit, picking up litter and making oncoming pilgrims aware of the problem of litter.

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

According to Rebakah Scott the former hospital (as in centuries ago) operated by priest someplace near Moratinos had a graveyard full of pilgrims that the hospitleros had killed to loot them of all of their belongs. Maybe a notice like that at donativos would be an effective deterrent, it would be much more effective than: no shirt, no shoes, no backpack - hasta la vista, baby. We encountered a few of those at San Anton and Oliver was very effective at dealing with them, much to Reb's chagrin.

And my messages are grim?

 

[Tincatinker]

Hah, they only murdered the ones who didn’t have wealthy families prepared to pay a ransom…
Perhaps if they were still in practice we’d hear a little less commentary on the exhorbitant cost of tostada

 

[Former member 91017]

I totally agree. I have always traveled with a family member/s, and only ate with other pilgrims at the communal dinners where each person paid ahead of time for their own meal. I always wondered how groups on the Camino dining together worked out the payments. Now I know...a few sometimes get stung which is unfortunately no surprise as I have experienced it myself elsewhere, and it usually does involve younger people contributing much less or nothing.
As parents, most of us enjoy picking up the bill for our kids, even when they reach adulthood, but a Camino "family" is completely different.

I had the very strange experience on my first camino of being forced to walk with a group I might not have chosen because one (older) memebr decided, without asking, to put our packs in a transport out of Austeritz before we were all out of showers/breakfast, whatever… which meant that my pack was on its way to Cizur Menor (when I had planned to stay right in Pamplona) and a group booking he had made on behalf of some 6-7 people….
I had plans to get my SIM card in Pamplona but had to go all the way to Cizur Menor to retrieve my things (figure out what I was going to owe on the group booking, figure out whom it was safe to share a room with as I was already roped in…) and then I had to make my way back to the city for my tarjeta nano sim.
While I was waiting in line at the cellphone place, the group went to have dinner somewhere. By the time I had my phone set up and found them, there was almost no food left of all the selections they had made. I had a few spoons of baby eel and half of a fried egg…. no wine, bread, cheese, meats… and I still was told I had to pay the same as everyone else.
I have worked really carefully in my caminos since then not to get caught in other people’s nets. I make myself clearly responsible for myself, not in need of “help with bookings”, not interested in “group economy” etc etc.
The guy who did all that organizing without consulting was a certified hike leader in the US… but was really not well-suited to the camino and we did not see him after the approach to Burgos. I wish I had not met him on the train from Biarritz.

 

[good_old_shoes]

I always wondered how groups on the Camino dining together worked out the payments.

I usually had dinner cooking in the albergue. When there was a group who wanted to dine together, either we collected a few Euros from everyone upfront before going to the supermarket or split up the money that was spent to buy the ingredients and wine afterwards, equally. Usually wasn't more than five Euros per person, often less. Always worked, no problems.

That was younger pilgrims mostly. Everyone buying ingredients, cooking, eating and cleaning up together.


I find it quite sad how bad behaviour is getting linked to age in some of the posts here. Individuals of all ages can act irresponsible, inconsiderate or plain rude, including the described 'dine and dash' / freeloading / whatever you call it. Linking that to a certain age or demographic only helps to reinforce prejudice, in my opinion.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I usually had dinner cooking in the albergue.

I can see where cooking together in the albergue kitchen is a different thing and collecting a few euros ahead of times seems simple enough and works well. @trecile was speaking of a large group eating out together at a dining establishment and I concurred with a few of my own similar experiences in life.
I agree though that no age group is exempt from having a few bad apples.

 

[Former member 91017]

I usually had dinner cooking in the albergue. When there was a group who wanted to dine together, either we collected a few Euros from everyone upfront before going to the supermarket or split up the money that was spent to buy the ingredients and wine afterwards, equally. Usually wasn't more than five Euros per person, often less. Always worked, no problems.

That was younger pilgrims mostly. Everyone buying ingredients, cooking, eating and cleaning up together.


I find it quite sad how bad behaviour is getting linked to age in some of the posts here. Individuals of all ages can act irresponsible, inconsiderate or plain rude, including the described 'dine and dash' / freeloading / whatever you call it. Linking that to a certain age or demographic only helps to reinforce prejudice, in my opinion.

Agreed. Hence my comments about the thoroughly "adult" person who created a fair amount of trouble for a handful of people over 2 days....

And certainly we've seen *years* worth of commentary now about the less than optimal habits, lack of consideration, etc (especially around the TP and loo issues) of those of us well past youth...

That said, I do have a rather humorous tic about the camino and that is this: I find it very very difficult to "get with the programme" of the locals who throw their paper serviettes on the floor after eating. I think I understand the idea (that sweeping up is less gross than picking up soiled paper off tables), but I still balk at what seems to my sensibilities as "rude". I promise myself that if I am ever in Leon again, I will toss my used serviettes on the floor with the rest of them.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Faye, I'd almost forgotten about that and how odd the practice seemed to me seeing bars littered with table napkins tossed on the floor. In the US a few restaurants/bars served complimentary peanuts and all the empty shells littered the floors. I'm not sure if it is still practiced or not, but it was "a sight for sore eyes".

 

[trecile]

I find it quite sad how bad behaviour is getting linked to age in some of the posts here. Individuals of all ages can act irresponsible, inconsiderate or plain rude, including the described 'dine and dash' / freeloading / whatever you call it. Linking that to a certain age or demographic only helps to reinforce prejudice, in my opinion.

I didn't say that all younger people behave inconsiderately, but some have not matured enough to take full responsibility for their lives, since they have been used to older adults, i.e., their parents paying their way. I may have been like them when I was younger! I do know that at 18 I still had a lot of growing up to do. I still enjoy their company, but have learned to beware of situations where there will be only one bill for the table.
I can say that when I have been at a similar group dinner with only pilgrims over age 30 or so that there is often a surplus of money after the plate has been passed around, and that the waiter got a nice tip!

 

[Robo]

On my first Camino I had many meals with other Pilgrims that I had met along the way.
Often 8-10 of us would agree to meet at a specific place for a meal, or we would just end up some place as a group.
Most of the time, the meal bill was spilt evenly, to make it easy.
This was always agreed before anything was ordered.
And usually the meals were individual rather than shared dishes.
The wine was shared.
If someone had ordered a meal that was a lot more expensive than the average, they would tip in a bit extra.

It all seemed to work out.

"Swings and roundabouts" .......

But I can see how problems could easily arise if some only wanted a small meal, others wanted to eat a lot, some were not wine drinkers etc etc. I think in those cases, it might make sense to pay individually, though that can cause problems for the cafe / restaurant, and some may have a 'no split bills' policy.

Just needs a bit of thought and agreement up front I guess.....
You wouldn't have lunch with your workmates before deciding how the bill would be settled, would you?

 

[domigee]

Agreed. Hence my comments about the thoroughly "adult" person who created a fair amount of trouble for a handful of people over 2 days....

And certainly we've seen *years* worth of commentary now about the less than optimal habits, lack of consideration, etc (especially around the TP and loo issues) of those of us well past youth...

That said, I do have a rather humorous tic about the camino and that is this: I find it very very difficult to "get with the programme" of the locals who throw their paper serviettes on the floor after eating. I think I understand the idea (that sweeping up is less gross than picking up soiled paper off tables), but I still balk at what seems to my sensibilities as "rude". I promise myself that if I am ever in Leon again, I will toss my used serviettes on the floor with the rest of them.

I haven’t experienced this in Spain recently, I must say. But… in Andalucia, oh… over 50 years ago it was the norm. You ate prawns for instance and threw everything on the floor Your high bar stools kept your feet well off the floor. I was a kid then and was flabbergasted Loved it!
But no, haven’t witnessed it for a long time, either on the various Caminos or any large cities. Or even little towns actually

 

[RJM]

As to the skirt-chaser.... I am as horrified by that aspect as by the no-shows pulled with albergues. I really, really am nauseated by those of any age who treat camino as though it's a hook-up adventure.

I imagine that being attracted to, and meeting and possibly having relations with members of the opposite sex (and same sex) whilst on pilgrimage is as old as the Camino itself. No way would I believe that medieval pilgrims trod piously across the countryside, chastity intact the entire journey. No way. It's only natural, and especially in younger hormones, for people to want to "hook up" and the fact that it is happening on an ancient religious pilgrimage ain't gonna stop it. I can't see it as nauseating. I think it's wonderful and if I was thirty or so years younger, thirty pounds lighter lean and mean and with my full head of brown hair back I would do it myself. I would have had no problem combining my strong spiritual and religious beliefs, desire to walk an ancient Christian pilgrimage with my attraction to like minded members of the opposite sex.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I haven’t experienced this in Spain recently, I must say. But… in Andalucia, oh… over 50 years ago it was the norm. You ate prawns for instance and threw everything on the floor Your high bar stools kept your feet well off the floor. I was a kid then and was flabbergasted Loved it!
But no, haven’t witnessed it for a long time, either on the various Caminos or any large cities. Or even little towns actually

The first time that I encountered anything like this was in Mexico City, 1982.

We had found this cheap restaurant that had sawdust on the floor. After our first meal there I was very surprised to see the waitress empty all the scraps off our plates onto the floor by our table but after that first experience we got used to it and when we ate there very late one night we saw that at the end of the night they simply swept everything up and replaced it with clean sawdust.

We were never sick there despite these conditions however on the one evening when we decided to go upmarket and treat ourselves to a much cleaner and more expensive restaurant the next day we were both very ill.

 

[C clearly]

the locals who throw their paper serviettes on the floor after eating.

I haven’t experienced this in Spain recently, I must say.

I have certainly seen it in recent years. Not everyone does it, but the floor is still rather littered with paper napkins. They are tiny little napkins that would not serve for more than one wipe, and seem to be designed for that purpose!

 

[Holly West]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

So sad. Bad behavior for sure. "That's why we can't have anything nice. " These people ruin things for everyone else. Sadly it is true for so much in life now.

 

[VNwalking]

But I can see how problems could easily arise if some only wanted a small meal, others wanted to eat a lot, some were not wine drinkers

I'm a vegetarian who doesn't drink wine. (I know, I know...you're probably thinking, no fun. I beg to differ ). I don't want to pay for others' meat and wine, so in the rare times I've been in a big group I ordered and paid individually. It's just less messy that way. Smaller groups of friends are another matter; we know each other and it all comes out in the wash.

Bad behavior is everywhere and always has been. We're human, and sometimes it's gross.

I would have had no problem combining my strong spiritual and religious beliefs, desire to walk an ancient Christian pilgrimage with my attraction to like minded members of the opposite sex

Fine, but i wish people would do that in private.

 

[RJM]

I'm a vegetarian who doesn't drink wine. (I know, I know...you're probably thinking, no fun. I beg to differ ). I don't want to pay for others' meat and wine, so in the rare times I've been in a big group I ordered and paid individually. It's just less messy that way. Smaller groups of friends are another matter; we know each other and it all comes out in the wash.

Bad behavior is everywhere and always has been. We're human, and sometimes it's gross.

Fine, but i wish people would do that in private.

Do what in private? Be attracted to each other?

 

[Former member 91017]

I imagine that being attracted to, and meeting and possibly having relations with members of the opposite sex (and same sex) whilst on pilgrimage is as old as the Camino itself. No way would I believe that medieval pilgrims trod piously across the countryside, chastity intact the entire journey. No way. It's only natural, and especially in younger hormones, for people to want to "hook up" and the fact that it is happening on an ancient religious pilgrimage ain't gonna stop it. I can't see it as nauseating. I think it's wonderful and if I was thirty or so years younger, thirty pounds lighter lean and mean and with my full head of brown hair back I would do it myself. I would have had no problem combining my strong spiritual and religious beliefs, desire to walk an ancient Christian pilgrimage with my attraction to like minded members of the opposite sex.

Nope… sorry. I have been hunted enough when I was younger, and even grabbed on my first camino by a young man who thought I was significantly younger than I am… I was merely walking past a table of pilgrims, returning from getting my things from the farmacia and he pulled me into his lap…
It nauseates me, and I hope for one place in the world where it’s not like reliving 7th grade crap With girls competing for who can get the most attention, and boys yammering about who is the most attractive.
That’s not attraction… it’s narcissism and predation… and it’s weird and toxic.… and that’s what I’m talking about... Not “attraction”.

And I’m not talking about casually finding oneself attracted to a person without that having been the goal. I am talking about the people who treat camino like the objective is a string of hook-ups. I’ve seen it… on 2 of 3 caminos… (dunno if it didn’t happen on the CP because of season, or being a “secondary route”… whatever)… and it created drama, bad feelings, broken hearts, inflated egos… it was ugly and I had to pull Spouse out of the middle of it on the 2nd camino because he had become a “Camino dad” in a group of young people where sex drama had overtaken the rest of stuff — with people hiding out, people trying to catch up to… just, yuck.

 

[RJM]

Nope… sorry. I have been hunted enough when I was younger, and even grabbed on my first camino by a young man who thought I was significantly younger than I am… I was merely walking past a table of pilgrims, returning from getting my things from the farmacia and he pulled me into his lap…
It nauseates me, and I hope for one place in the world where it’s not like reliving 7th grade crap With girls competing for who can get the most attention, and boys yammering about who is the most attractive.
That’s not attraction… it’s narcissism and predation… and it’s weird and toxic.… and that’s what I’m talking about... Not “attraction”.

I'm sorry for any negative experiences you have had in your past, but I certainly was not referring to any type of sexual assault or harassment in my comments. It sounds like we are talking about two different things.

 

[VNwalking]

It sounds like we are talking about two different things.

Clearly. Fortuitous attraction versus what sounds like a toxic party scene.

Do what in private? Be attracted to each other?

Haha, RJM, do I have to spell it out?
I bet you you know what I mean.

(I'm sure I'm not the only person who's tried to sleep in the same dorm where heavy petting was going on. It's gross.)

 

[Marbe2]

i heard a young man from Ireland complain(!) because the recommended amount for the donativo was €4 but then the full evening meal would have been something like 8€ each and the guys thought that was too much! So the guys got together, bought their own food, came back to the place and cooked it (used the electricity, the water, the stove and the refrigerator to prepare a meal for themselves! He thought they were being cheated-cause they only spent about € 5 a piece! I looked at his raingear and the shoes he was wearing…good quality I thought…....and that he was nice enough….but completely self involved….

 

[dick bird]

i heard a young man from Ireland complain(!) because the recommended amount for the donativo was €4 but then the full evening meal would have been something like 8€ each and the guys thought that was too much! So the guys got together, bought their own food, came back to the place and cooked it (used the electricity, the water, the stove and the refrigerator to prepare a meal for themselves! He thought they were being cheated-cause they only spent about € 5 a piece! I looked at his raingear and the shoes he was wearing…good quality I thought…....and that he was nice enough….but completely self involved….

I think people often miscalculate the appropriate amount for a night in a donativo because they base it on what the municipales charge. What they don't realise is that the municipal albergues are heavily subsidised. A couple of years ago, a Voz de Galicia article reported that the Xunta was upping the price from 5 euros to 8 euros, which according to the figures they had would just about cover the costs. Donativos must have similar if not higher costs. Having said that, most of the donativos I've had experience of go to some length to point out that they are not actually free, with mixed success: average contributions ranged from 2.5 euros for bed and evening meal to 8 euros for bed and breakfast.

 

[IngridF]

I donate what I would pay for a a room in a private establisment. That helps pilgrims who are not able to donate much and yes they are still out there. Remember one really doesn't know who walks beside you...pauper or millionare. Sometimes the donation is for two, remembering the times serving as hospitalera and looking at an empty donation box. Light and Live

 

[shefollowsshells]

Nope… sorry. I have been hunted enough when I was younger, and even grabbed on my first camino by a young man who thought I was significantly younger than I am… I was merely walking past a table of pilgrims, returning from getting my things from the farmacia and he pulled me into his lap…
It nauseates me, and I hope for one place in the world where it’s not like reliving 7th grade crap With girls competing for who can get the most attention, and boys yammering about who is the most attractive.
That’s not attraction… it’s narcissism and predation… and it’s weird and toxic.… and that’s what I’m talking about... Not “attraction”.

And I’m not talking about casually finding oneself attracted to a person without that having been the goal. I am talking about the people who treat camino like the objective is a string of hook-ups. I’ve seen it… on 2 of 3 caminos… (dunno if it didn’t happen on the CP because of season, or being a “secondary route”… whatever)… and it created drama, bad feelings, broken hearts, inflated egos… it was ugly and I had to pull Spouse out of the middle of it on the 2nd camino because he had become a “Camino dad” in a group of young people where sex drama had overtaken the rest of stuff — with people hiding out, people trying to catch up to… just, yuck.

I’m walking now, CF, and pretty shocked at the behavior of men in their 60s seeming obsessed with talking about women, young women, old women as objects and their attractiveness loudly among strangers. Just today, a loud citizen of my country speaking of a women and IDing her by her country and saying how “ _____ is SO in love with her”. He sounded like a 12 year old boy!!!! and sadly I was forwarned of his behavior a week ago…
People hooking up is their business but talking about women in such a manner as if you are a 12 year old boy who has no experience with women is embarrassing and the guy looks like an idiot!

 

[shefollowsshells]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

I feel safe to say this is my last FRANCES! The people who put on their alarms at 0530 AM and go back to bed with each “snooze”, while the rest of us now have to wake … the sticks pounding the pavement in ridiculous places where you can’t hear a bird or cricket ( and the user calling it “ rhythmic “ ( for him maybe)… and hearing loud phone notifications ALL DAY , loud alarms I guess for EVERY text message people get. You can’t sit in an albergue garden without hearing “ dump dah da dump dump” on peoples phones for every text they get. This is such ODD behavior. I have six kids, five at home, one with severe special needs and I don’t need to hear every notification I get. Most of my texts are alerting me that “ ____ is due for a tooth cleaning”…. certainly not worthy of a five second loud obnoxious signal! I guess I have no friends- sigh..
There is not ONE message I have ever gotten that needs to be announced with such dramatic flair!

 

[Karl Oz]

I imagine that being attracted to, and meeting and possibly having relations with members of the opposite sex (and same sex) whilst on pilgrimage is as old as the Camino itself. No way would I believe that medieval pilgrims trod piously across the countryside, chastity intact the entire journey. No way. It's only natural, and especially in younger hormones, for people to want to "hook up" and the fact that it is happening on an ancient religious pilgrimage ain't gonna stop it. I can't see it as nauseating. I think it's wonderful and if I was thirty or so years younger, thirty pounds lighter lean and mean and with my full head of brown hair back I would do it myself. I would have had no problem combining my strong spiritual and religious beliefs, desire to walk an ancient Christian pilgrimage with my attraction to like minded members of the opposite sex.

Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.

 

[SabsP]

Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.

I do understand what you are saying but I would like to stress that not only youngsters behave in such a way! I saw some obnoxious behaviour with seniors also. And they should even know better!

 

[Former member 91017]

I do understand what you are saying but I would like to stress that not only youngsters behave in such a way! I saw some obnoxious behaviour with seniors also. And they should even know better!

Agreed… that was the biggest mental-clutter kind of drag on my first camino for the first few days to about Puenta de la Reina… After that I just walked alone a lot more, found my accommodations on my own a lot more, etc.

 

[linkster]

Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.

I think some walked as a form of punishment both then and now.

 

[peregrina2000]

Sad to say, I don’t think any change comes from our comments here on the forum, but I know that venting is cathartic (and I am not trying to dissuade people from doing that). But one good thing that may result is to help others make the decision to find another camino to walk, where the ”jerk quotient” may be significantly less. Heads up — no jerks ever found (by me) on the Salvador, Olvidado, Invierno, Levante, Ebro, Castellano-Aragonés, Mozárabe…

I have started getting email from Ivar on a weekly basis telling me which forum threads have been the most popular, and I was very surprised to see that this is the thread with the most views this week.

Maybe that means that we humans gravitate towards the negative, but I hope that newcomers realize that I think most forum members would say that despite the inevitable occasional bad experience, the overall balance continues to tip very strongly to the positive side!

 

[peregrina2000]

As regards booking ahead, I think it would be better to scrap that entirely and just have an online system where you can see in real time where vacancies exist, no messing around.

I know we’ve had a recent discussion of this proposal. The thread was closed because things got contentious and rude. So I would suggest that anyone who is inclined to comment here should read that closed thread and see if there is anything new to add.

And as you contemplate that, remember that the title of the thread refers to behavior on the camino not on the forum.

 

[Damico Walking]

I make a lot of advance bookings, but I never fail to show up, most especially when there’s no penalty charge for not notifying them beforehand. Even when I use Booking. com, I try to cancel as far as possible in advance. It’s good manners, isn’t it?

I think you hit one important point spot on, Manners. I was taught many things by my parents, respect your elders, Give you seat to a elder or infirmed/pregnant, open the door for a woman or others, say please and thank you, these are just a few things that we commonly call polite today but are generally referred to as good manners. I did my best to pass these same values/manners on to my children who are now passing them on to theirs. Not everyone has passed these values of human politeness on to the next generation.

I am sure that people of prior generations, my grand or great grand parents would think my manners are not up to their standards, but would recognize that I am polite. After all it isn't 1890 any more. So this just shows that I am far, far from perfect. But I do make every attempt. Of course the definition of "good manners" is defined by society, and society changes with every generation. So I say teach what we can, encourage when we can, and set a positive example.

 

[hikingpal]

I haven’t experienced this in Spain recently, I must say. But… in Andalucia, oh… over 50 years ago it was the norm. You ate prawns for instance and threw everything on the floor Your high bar stools kept your feet well off the floor. I was a kid then and was flabbergasted Loved it!
But no, haven’t witnessed it for a long time, either on the various Caminos or any large cities. Or even little towns actually

I have certainly seen it in recent years. Not everyone does it, but the floor is still rather littered with paper napkins. They are tiny little napkins that would not serve for more than one wipe, and seem to be designed for that purpose!

Photo from a small town along the Camino Primitivo, 2018. It's still a thing!

 

[RJM]

Clearly. Fortuitous attraction versus what sounds like a toxic party scene.


Haha, RJM, do I have to spell it out?
I bet you you know what I mean.

(I'm sure I'm not the only person who's tried to sleep in the same dorm where heavy petting was going on. It's gross.)

lol...yes, I know what you mean but I initially wasn't, or only partially thinking along those lines.
I can honestly say though, I've spent over 180 days on the Camino(s) and only once (maybe twice?) I came across a couple in an albergue dorm room, fully coupled up (so to speak). I have to say, that's not a bad batting average in regards to that specific behavior, though I do agree they needed to "get a room" as the saying goes. What I observed more of was stuff like leaving albergue toilets a mess (yes, that kind of stinky mess), pilgrims dumping all their gear all over the floor in between the beds (why? I mean, why?), eating on beds, dusty backpack on beds. Things like that, and said pilgrims were of many nationalities and age groups etc.
Funny thing is, in regards to the current pandemic situation and walking the Camino, I would be more than happy to put up with all that silly crap again just to be able to walk the Camino again as it was before.

 

[shefollowsshells]

lol...yes, I know what you mean but I initially wasn't, or only partially thinking along those lines.
I can honestly say though, I've spent over 180 days on the Camino(s) and only once (maybe twice?) I came across a couple in an albergue dorm room, fully coupled up (so to speak). I have to say, that's not a bad batting average in regards to that specific behavior, though I do agree they needed to "get a room" as the saying goes. What I observed more of was stuff like leaving albergue toilets a mess (yes, that kind of stinky mess), pilgrims dumping all their gear all over the floor in between the beds (why? I mean, why?), eating on beds, dusty backpack on beds. Things like that, and said pilgrims were of many nationalities and age groups etc.
Funny thing is, in regards to the current pandemic situation and walking the Camino, I would be more than happy to put up with all that silly crap again just to be able to walk the Camino again as it was before.

I think that’s an awful batting average, accepting a couple getting it on in the company of others on a pilgrimage twice a year, or four times a year ( based on 180 days mentioned)… gross!
My young daughters have been in Caminos about that much time and this behavior if witnessed by them is disgusting!!!!!

 

[Phoenix]

I know we’ve had a recent discussion of this proposal. The thread was closed because things got contentious and rude. So I would suggest that anyone who is inclined to comment here should read that closed thread and see if there is anything new to add.

And as you contemplate that, remember that the title of the thread refers to behavior on the camino not on the forum.

Looks like we're heading down the same path...

 

[Anthony Rocco]

A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:

Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.

Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.

Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.

Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?

My wife and I have only been doing the less traveled caminos in recent years. Rather than deteriorating behavior, we have been heartened by the generosity of pilgrims, especially at donativos, for replenishing needed items in the bathrooms and kitchens as a donation in addition to any money they leave. This generosity is one of a number of factors that keeps drawing us to the lesser traveled caminos. We also found that pilgrims on these caminos reach out to help each other when they see something amiss. They don't wait to be asked. And the villagers...they are all embracing.

 

[RJM]

I think that’s an awful batting average, accepting a couple getting it on in the company of others on a pilgrimage twice a year, or four times a year ( based on 180 days mentioned)… gross!
My young daughters have been in Caminos about that much time and this behavior if witnessed by them is disgusting!!!!!

I was not the only pilgrim in the dorm when one incident specifically comes to mind, and we just looked at each and laughed and left the dorm (was in the afternoon). I quite honestly do not expect puritan behavior from everyone walking the Camino. As far as acceptance of their behavior? What should have I done? Loudly said "hey you two! get a room!" or something like that all the while wagging a pious finger in their direction?
Not sure if they would have taken it seriously from me, a bearded, tattooed middle age guy in shorts and sandals who may have had a beer in his hand.

 

[Marbe2]

Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.

“Scoring” anywhere is not wholesome.

 

[trecile]

Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.

As I understand it, not all pilgrims of centuries past were exactly pious. Some were given the choice of prison or the Camino, and others were paid to walk it by rich people who didn't want to go themselves.

 

[VNwalking]

As far as acceptance of their behavior? What should have I done? Loudly said "hey you two! get a room!" or something like that all the while wagging a pious finger in their direction?

Yes definitely omit the pious finger - pointy fingers never change minds. But if no-one says something how are people going to know that what they're doing is objectionable?

A quiet and kind word on the side (rather than in public) after the fact is perhaps warranted. I know someone who gently read the riot act to a 20-something who was in their own little self-centered bubble, and she got a positive response because the person had been genuinely oblivious. But it's delicate and takes a lot if tact. I keep my mouth shut because tact is not my strong suit and I'd be tempted to blurt out something like what you wrote.

 

[good_old_shoes]

Maybe it would be good to have a small forum section for "ranting and venting" "negative experiences on the Camino" or something like that.

As someone else said before, it can be cathartic to write such things down and to discuss them, that's a very human thing to do, and it can be helpful.

But maybe if there was a dedicated section for such threads as this one, that way the negativity that tends to come with them could perhaps be somewhat contained, instead of being all over the forum...? Just a thought.

 

[shefollowsshells]

Maybe it would be good to have a small forum section for "ranting and venting" "negative experiences on the Camino" or something like that.

As someone else said before, it can be cathartic to write such things down and to discuss them, that's a very human thing to do, and it can be helpful.

But maybe if there was a dedicated section for such threads as this one, that way the negativity that tends to come with them could perhaps be somewhat contained, instead of being all over the forum...? Just a thought.

I think this is a great idea! Immediately after writing mine I felt guilty as I don’t want to influence newbies with my words, the Camino is great. I stand by my every word, but would totally support a “ place” for them.

 

[dick bird]

“Scoring” anywhere is not wholesome.

Have you read Chaucer's 'Canterbury Tales'? If you get enough heterogenous humans together in the same place at the same time, there is pretty well no limit to what they will begin to do with each other.

 

[dick bird]

Yes definitely omit the pious finger - pointy fingers never change minds. But if no-one says something how are people going to know that what they're doing is objectionable?

A quiet and kind word on the side (rather than in public) after the fact is perhaps warranted. I know someone who gently read the riot act to a 20-something who was in their own little self-centered bubble, and she got a positive response because the person had been genuinely oblivious. But it's delicate and takes a lot if tact. I keep my mouth shut because tact is not my strong suit and I'd be tempted to blurt out something like what you wrote.

Of course, in this case the offenders were clearly not in self-centred, individual bubbles. If they had been, the situation would not have occurred. But I have been witness (if that is the right word) to pilgrims getting it on in the middle of the afternoon in a public albergue dorm, and they were neither young nor newly acquainted. They were an elderly married couple. The problem is what to do when someone's behaviour is clearly and obviously unacceptable. You think to yourself 'they must know this is unacceptable, but they are still doing it, so what would be the point of me telling them?'. My perception is that the camino is a remarkable example of a very large number of total strangers behaving extremely well with one another, so the exceptions stand out like small black dots on a large white surface. Maybe we need two threads: a spleen-venting thread and a what-to-do-constructively-about-bad-behaviour thread. Next camino perhaps I will take a laminated card (or perhaps a pack of little business cards) containing the phrase 'Would you mind not doing that?' in 50 different languages.