OBSOLETE COVID THREAD Designing a Camino for the COVID-19 World

[Stephan the Painter]

As I thought experiment, I’m wondering how the Camino (let’s say the Camino Francés) could be redesigned to make it possible for people to safely walk it in the world that’s going to start appearing in the next few months.

Or for next year or even farther into the future if the situation continues for years as I think it might. A world which I imagine will have less restrictions than we have now, but still some.

How do we make it safe for pilgrims, and residents, and business owners of the areas the Camino passes through?

I had a few ideas but I don’t want to lead this thread anywhere…

 

[Molly Cassidy]

One thought is just to reduce the number of pilgrims. Perhaps you would need a permit and a certain number could be issued each day.

 

[C clearly]

Perhaps you would need a permit and a certain number could be issued each day.

This is not practical, given the nature of the camino - walking on the streets and public pathways of Spain.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

This is not practical, given the nature of the camino - walking on the streets and public pathways of Spain.

Sorry, it was only an idea.

 

[C clearly]

Sorry, it was only an idea.

It works better in wilderness areas, or areas that are contained somehow.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

Who knows if any kind of pilgrimage will be possible in the next few months. But at some stage - long before everyone can get vaccinated - the camino will open with a range of new restrictions, tools, and ways of operating. My guess is that these might include the following:

One model would be Korea's approach to arrivals from overseas
1. Coronavirus test on arrival
2. 14 day quarantine period at a hotel at the traveler's expense
3. Requirement to install an app that monitors location (and requires twice daily input of health data)
4. Free to travel after quarantine completed but cell phone location is monitored

Another possible tool would be documentation for people who can prove that they have recovered from a coronavirus infection (making them a lower risk - we assume - for reinfection).

Other restrictions would likely be introduced to reinforce social distancing - e.g. albergues would be required to increase space between pilgrims. They might have to set aside unoccupied bunks between occupied bunks etc. This reduces their capacity in ways that might make it untenable.

Potential "no go" areas. Pilgrims might be required to detour around cities that are dealing with sudden outbreaks. Guardia Civil would pick up pilgrims who are heading toward those areas.

Insurance requirements - Non-EU pilgrims might be required to take out an insurance policy to cover medical costs, since it's likely that some pilgrims will end up requiring extended hospital treatment. Even EU pilgrims might have to sign up to some kind of additional insurance if the rules about EHIC privileges are changed.

Religious services suspended. A pilgrimage without pilgrim masses?

Greater vigilance and enforcement of hygiene in albergues. More frequent and thorough cleaning of albergues. Requirement to wear masks indoors. etc.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

A Change is Gonna Come

old-school pilgrim hospitality The cries reach the heavens: We've had enough. Time to get back to life! I wanna walk my camino! ...

moratinoslife.blogspot.com

I just wrote a blog on this... not quite so technical and detailed, but the whole sweeping Possible of it.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Who knows if any kind of pilgrimage will be possible in the next few months. But at some stage - long before everyone can get vaccinated - the camino will open with a range of new restrictions, tools, and ways of operating. My guess is that these might include the following:

One model would be Korea's approach to arrivals from overseas
1. Coronavirus test on arrival
2. 14 day quarantine period at a hotel at the traveler's expense
3. Requirement

Who knows if any kind of pilgrimage will be possible in the next few months. But at some stage - long before everyone can get vaccinated - the camino will open with a range of new restrictions, tools, and ways of operating. My guess is that these might include the following:

One model would be Korea's approach to arrivals from overseas
1. Coronavirus test on arrival
2. 14 day quarantine period at a hotel at the traveler's expense
3. Requirement to install an app that monitors location (and requires twice daily input of health data)
4. Free to travel after quarantine completed but cell phone location is monitored

Another possible tool would be documentation for people who can prove that they have recovered from a coronavirus infection (making them a lower risk - we assume - for reinfection).

Other restrictions would likely be introduced to reinforce social distancing - e.g. albergues would be required to increase space between pilgrims. They might have to set aside unoccupied bunks between occupied bunks etc. This reduces their capacity in ways that might make it untenable.

Potential "no go" areas. Pilgrims might be required to detour around cities that are dealing with sudden outbreaks. Guardia Civil would pick up pilgrims who are heading toward those areas.

Insurance requirements - Non-EU pilgrims might be required to take out an insurance policy to cover medical costs, since it's likely that some pilgrims will end up requiring extended hospital treatment. Even EU pilgrims might have to sign up to some kind of additional insurance if the rules about EHIC privileges are changed.

Religious services suspended. A pilgrimage without pilgrim masses?

Greater vigilance and enforcement of hygiene in albergues. More frequent and thorough cleaning of albergues. Requirement to wear masks indoors. etc.

to install an app that monitors location (and requires twice daily input of health data)
4. Free to travel after quarantine completed but cell phone location is monitored

All very good ideas. You’re basically suggesting an almost quarantine world. Which may be what is necessary if anybody wants to do anything like this and preserve safety. But I don’t think you would get a lot of takers under those conditions. And since you wouldn’t get a lot of takers, I don’t think the albergues would be open anyway.

And I wasn’t really thinking that this would happen in the next couple months. I changed my original post to reflect that.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

A Change is Gonna Come

old-school pilgrim hospitality The cries reach the heavens: We've had enough. Time to get back to life! I wanna walk my camino! ...

moratinoslife.blogspot.com

I just wrote a blog on this... not quite so technical and detailed, but the whole sweeping Possible of it.

A very good read, Rebekah. and very depressing. There aren’t very many good ideas on how to solve the economic problems caused by this. Not ideas that also preserve safety, anyway, At least that I have seen. But I have faith in human ingenuity. There’s billions of good minds on this planet. Maybe one of them, or some of them, will come up with ideas that none of the rest of us thought of. I think that’s our only hope for this to be over soon.

One thing I do suspect is that in 20 years, this will just be history. A bad time that not many people even remember very well. The destruction and tragedy that this is causing will not affect the world that much at all in the long run. Like grandparents remembering the depression. It’s funny how all that works.

 

[Nat2020]

"14 day quarantine period at a hotel at the traveler's expense " -
It is difficult to find more than 20 days to travel for some travelers. Therefore, such
actions will be unpopular.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

I just wrote a blog on this... not quite so technical and detailed, but the whole sweeping Possible of it.

Brilliant if discomfiting article. Thank you for sharing

You’re basically suggesting an almost quarantine world. Which may be what is necessary if anybody wants to do anything like this and preserve safety. But I don’t think you would get a lot of takers under those conditions. And since you wouldn’t get a lot of takers, I don’t think the albergues would be open anyway.

I believe that we're going to experience at least a couple of years of transition from the time the blunt, national, lockdowns end to the time when vaccination is widely available in high income countries, and carefree travel starts to pick up again. The profile of the pilgrim population in Spain during this liminal period will be more Spanish, more affluent, older, and more adventurous. (Of course, I don't mean that everyone is going to be affluent - a hardcore of penniless pilgrims will also be on the way. But the "average' is going to move in the directions that I described above).

Albergues and other businesses on the popular routes (e.g. CF) whose business models depend on the 2019 pilgrim population will adjust or disappear. The camino itself, however, was there long before those businesses.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Brilliant if discomfiting article. Thank you for sharing

I believe that we're going to experience at least a couple of years of transition from the time the blunt, national, lockdowns end to the time when vaccination is widely available in high income countries, and carefree travel starts to pick up again. The profile of the pilgrim population in Spain during this liminal period will be more Spanish, more affluent, older, and more adventurous. (Of course, I don't mean that everyone is going to be affluent - a hardcore of penniless pilgrims will also be on the way. But the "average' is going to move in the directions that I described above).

Albergues and other businesses on the popular routes (e.g. CF) whose business models depend on the 2019 pilgrim population will adjust or disappear. The camino itself, however, was there long before those businesses.

I think what you describe is probably right under the current circumstances. A vaccine in a couple years is optimistic. I think that’s just what the government and media are saying so people don’t despair.

But what I think might have a chance is that there’s just better treatments for Covid 19. Something that will take the edge off, and make it a less serious disease. I haven’t read anything reliable about good therapy’s, but I think that pretty much every doctor and biomedical researcher on the planet are thinking about this right now. Hoping.

And I’m also still hoping that more forum participants will post some thoughtful (or even wacky) ideas about making the Camino safer in the future. No mean slapping down, please....

 

[trecile]

I'm not sure that you can redesign the Camino, since it was never "designed" in the first place. Rather it developed organically as people had a desire to make a pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela. Certain routes became more popular as infrastructure built up and safety could more or less be guaranteed to pilgrims along those routes.

 

[trecile]

But what I think might have a chance is that there’s just better treatments for Covid 19. Something that will take the edge off, and make it a less serious disease. I

For many, if not most, it's not a serious disease. We need to find out why some become gravely ill, while others are infected without symptoms.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Sorry, it was only an idea.

Thanks Molly! It may be workable with a few small additions. The current pilgrim credentials could be made mandatory, that is - no pilgrim passport, no accommodation and no food or drink anywhere in Spain, policed by the local vendors. Then limit the number of pilgrim passports issued each year.

Of course it would not be called a pilgrim passport, instead it would be a tourist visa in separate paper or electronic form.

Then the Spanish government could "tax" tourists by charging for the Visa and put the funds towards recovering small tourist businesses.

 

[NorthernLight]

"14 day quarantine period at a hotel at the traveler's expense " -
It is difficult to find more than 20 days to travel for some travelers. Therefore, such
actions will be unpopular.

If there is a 14 day quarantine on arrival into Europe, there will likely be a 14 day quarantine on arrival at home as well. All quick caminos will be off the table for overseas pilgrims.

 

[NorthernLight]

For many, if not most, it's not a serious disease. We need to find out why some get very ill, while others are infected without symptoms.

Hijack! There is a very interesting article about Typhoid Mary on the BBC’s website. She remained a carrier her whole life and spread that disease everywhere she went, but never got sick herself.

 

[Kanga]

My prayers are for an effective vaccine.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

But what I think might have a chance is that there’s just better treatments for Covid 19. Something that will take the edge off, and make it a less serious disease. I haven’t read anything reliable about good therapy’s, but I think that pretty much every doctor and biomedical researcher on the planet are thinking about this right now. Hoping.

I do hope you're right about therapies.
In the immediate future, I think hospitals will start giving prophylactic plasma treatments to some of the doctors and nurses doing the riskiest work.
It will take a couple more months to work out if we any medications with existing approvals can be used to "take the edge" off of this virus (but I suspect it will still be too serious for us to forget about vaccination).
By the fall (when we may see a new wave of infections) we might have engineered antibody treatments that can be used to aid recovery or provide temporary immunity. They will be expensive.

 

[jl]

One thought is just to reduce the number of pilgrims. Perhaps you would need a permit and a certain number could be issued each day.

This is not practical, given the nature of the camino - walking on the streets and public pathways of Spain.

Actually, anything is possible. This is just what is done on the Cammino di Assisi from Davadola to Assisi. Pilgrims register with their preferred start date and are then told if this date is approved or not, and if necessary given a new start date. When I began my Cammino in Davadola a young man arrived three days late to start his journey, having been held up somewhere along the way. He was given instructions as to to how to get to where he should have been and told he could not start from Davadola. This young man duly skipped the first few days and I never saw him again until Assisi where he had spent a few extra days. The Cammino di Assisi has just the same feel as the Spanish Caminos and this is how they manage the infrastructure on that section (around 2 weeks) of the journey to Assisi and from there onto Rome.

Yes - it would be VERY different to how the Camino has been in the past. As someone who has been travelling these paths since 2005 I have seen many changes, but the one thing I know is that we, the pilgrims, are adaptable (or should be). The communities we pass through have adapted, grown, changed as the numbers have increased. I have no doubt the journey will change, but I have no doubt we will change too and adapt to whatever happens.

Remember that a pilgrim should Expect nothing and be grateful for everything.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Well, I think that none of these ideas will work. They won’t work because very few people will want to do them. No one is going to volunteer for a quarantine. Vendors aren’t going to refuse to serve someone because they don’t have a Camino Visa. And even if you had some sort of visa, many people wouldn’t bother. Will you have police roadblocks? It costs a lot of money to have extra policeman patrolling.

A Camino visa Would have to be based on housing. If you didn’t have one you couldn’t stay in the hotels. Dormitory style housing will not exist under the current conditions. But you can‘t just limit this to pilgrims, you have to do this for every tourist. What’s the difference if you limit people in northern Spain, but you let people go to the beaches and hotels in southern Spain? You might try to substitute campsites for the Albergue’s, but you actually need a lot of land and development to do this. You have to have plumbing in a large campsite.

You could try to do all these things, but most people simply will not come. For those who do, you might get a quieter Camino, but the businesses and families who survive off the Camino won’t be able to anymore. That’s actually the point of keeping the Camino healthy from Spains point of view.

In retrospect, this was a silly post. Only time will solve this problem. The Camino will reopen when tourism feels safe again. I myself am thinking that I need to start forgetting about the Camino for now.

 

[Elle Bieling]

My prayers are for an effective vaccine.

Yes, it seems to me like things could be somewhat as it was, if all a pilgrim had to do was prove immunity, via vaccine, or reliable antibody test, or whatever.

 

[Dani7]

Well, I think that none of these ideas will work. They won’t work because very few people will want to do them. No one is going to volunteer for a quarantine. Vendors aren’t going to refuse to serve someone because they don’t have a Camino Visa. And even if you had some sort of visa, many people wouldn’t bother. Will you have police roadblocks? It costs a lot of money to have extra policeman patrolling.

A Camino visa Would have to be based on housing. If you didn’t have one you couldn’t stay in the hotels. Dormitory style housing will not exist under the current conditions. But you can‘t just limit this to pilgrims, you have to do this for every tourist. What’s the difference if you limit people in northern Spain, but you let people go to the beaches and hotels in southern Spain? You might try to substitute campsites for the Albergue’s, but you actually need a lot of land and development to do this. You have to have plumbing in a large campsite.

You could try to do all these things, but most people simply will not come. For those who do, you might get a quieter Camino, but the businesses and families who survive off the Camino won’t be able to anymore. That’s actually the point of keeping the Camino healthy from Spains point of view.

In retrospect, this was a silly post. Only time will solve this problem. The Camino will reopen when tourism feels safe again. I myself am thinking that I need to start forgetting about the Camino for now.

Having yet to do my first Camino Frances, (would be walking it now) I hold the spirit of it close to my heart and have now let go of the “when” and focusing on staying healthy in hopes that one day my dream will come true. I don’t think your post was silly. You’re just expressing your hopes and wishes.

 

[CWBuff]

I know that you guys are "serious" but...yeah... so much just looks bleak.......
thus I am thinking (never a good idea )
I think I'll take that 14-day quarantine while on the

The Cheese Road in Vorarlberg

I am with @Dani7 - granted my first CF is not until a full 13 months from now..... I live in hopes

 

[martin1ws]

Few pilgrims can do the lonelier caminos probably immediately after travelling is allowed again.

And the crowded caminos? I do not know. I would say... if there can be mass tourism on the beaches there may be the possibility for many pilgrims on the Camino Frances and in albergues as well.
There are some hints that let me hope... the Sweden model was not that bad until now... hygiene measures... face masks... summer time maybe can help a little bit... better medical treatment... this is all far from perfect (vaccination) and does not help risk groups very much... but I think, there is still hope.

Probably the easing of the anti-corona-measures will be in steps. And it would be so great if in the summer of 2021 there are again many threads about bed bugs, bed races and too-many-holy-year-pilgrims. And hopefully most of the albergues survive until we can read these threads again...

 

[gittiharre]

A Change is Gonna Come

old-school pilgrim hospitality The cries reach the heavens: We've had enough. Time to get back to life! I wanna walk my camino! ...

moratinoslife.blogspot.com

I just wrote a blog on this... not quite so technical and detailed, but the whole sweeping Possible of it.

The only certainty is, that things will be very different....such a sense of loss for how things were on the camino.
I can see opportunities for living differently and hopefully more sustainably in the world as a whole....but I so wish the pilgrim scene could remain as it was....

 

[CWBuff]

A Change is Gonna Come

old-school pilgrim hospitality The cries reach the heavens: We've had enough. Time to get back to life! I wanna walk my camino! ...

moratinoslife.blogspot.com

I just wrote a blog on this... not quite so technical and detailed, but the whole sweeping Possible of it.

The picture quickly came clear. Pilgrims don't want albergues any more. They want pilgrim-only hotels.
That just made me incredibly sad

 

[trecile]

The picture quickly came clear. Pilgrims don't want albergues any more. They want pilgrim-only hotels.

That thread was one of building a fantasy Albergue, which no one really expects to be built. I think that most pilgrims who regularly stay in albergues aren't looking for pilgrim only hotels, and are quite happy with the current albergues.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

As I sit with this over time, I talk with pilgrims and hospitaleros and Camino jefes, I see a real-shaking out going on, economically and spiritually.
There's going to be a whole lot less infrastructure for a while. A lot of places are not going to survive the crisis. The Spanish tourism industry and the Camino jefes will struggle to find the new rhythm, creating instability. Tourists hate places that are not sure and cut & dried. They will stop coming.
Pilgrims will come, or come back again, and find the camino is not what they expected. Things will be more expensive. The trail will be more rugged and challenging, with longer walks between stops and fewer options once they arrive. There may well be more religion going on. There will be fewer pilgrims, and fewer places desigened only for them, and fewer services built around their needs.
The Camino may fall out of fashion for a few years, or many years.
It's happened before.
I hope I am wrong. I love this Camino. I intend to live the rest of my life here.
But I won't miss a lot of what it's become in the last decade or so.

 

[CWBuff]

That thread was one of building a fantasy Albergue, which no one really expects to be built. I think that most pilgrims who regularly stay in albergues aren't looking for pilgrim only hotels, and are quite happy with the current albergues.

By all means. Therese - I sincerely WISH TO GOD ALMIGHTY that you are correct!!! It just that, that sentence from Rebekah's blog hit a bit of a nerve... I, sort of, 'know the type' and I just could see it...very clear...
lets hope not!

 

[CWBuff]

The Camino may fall out of fashion for a few years, or many years.
It's happened before.

I hate to sound like a butt-head but IMHO "falling into a fashion" has never proved to be "good" for anything that did so.
And since we do say that lots of time - The Lord is the only One who Knows - well... maybe it ... a needed cleansing of a sort...

Fads come and go - substance stays!

 

[RJM]

Few if any people have two weeks to spend in quarantine before they start a Camino and two weeks afterwards in quarantine in order to get home. One month of quarantine for say a 2-5 week holiday? LOL...nope.
No public albergue is going to open and be business as usual until there's an effective vaccine. Few if any people are willing to walk the Camino with only treatment as an option if they get sick with Covid-19, and the possibility of death is there. Certainly not enough pilgrims to maintain and support the major Camino routes as they operated before.
IMO there's not a viable way to walk the, say Camino Frances in a Covid-19 world without a vaccine. Few if any people would risk it, and I am sure the local governments do not want it either.

 

[RJM]

The picture quickly came clear. Pilgrims don't want albergues any more. They want pilgrim-only hotels.
That just made me incredibly sad

Why sad? Just an opinion. This multiple Camino pilgrim wants albergues, and prefers albergues and always will. Just about every other pilgrim I befriended on the multiple Caminos I walked wanted albergues and I am sure they are the norm.
As they say, don't believe the hype. The more active forum members here represent only a tiny fraction of the pilgrim community, and based on my observations and assumptions represent a small demographic of the overall pilgrim community (from what I can deduce very few younger pilgrim set and very few economically strapped pilgrim set, just to name a couple). Impossible to judge what the hundreds of thousands of other pilgrims, many of which do not even know this forum exists ( I did not it existed until before I walked my third Camino), want in the form of accommodations on the Camino.
This forum can be quite useful in travel and equipment tips etc, but take anything else you read here with a grain of salt.

 

[cathietherese]

As I sit with this over time, I talk with pilgrims and hospitaleros and Camino jefes, I see a real-shaking out going on, economically and spiritually.
There's going to be a whole lot less infrastructure for a while. A lot of places are not going to survive the crisis. The Spanish tourism industry and the Camino jefes will struggle to find the new rhythm, creating instability. Tourists hate places that are not sure and cut & dried. They will stop coming.
Pilgrims will come, or come back again, and find the camino is not what they expected. Things will be more expensive. The trail will be more rugged and challenging, with longer walks between stops and fewer options once they arrive. There may well be more religion going on. There will be fewer pilgrims, and fewer places desigened only for them, and fewer services built around their needs.
The Camino may fall out of fashion for a few years, or many years.
It's happened before.
I hope I am wrong. I love this Camino. I intend to live the rest of my life here.
But I won't miss a lot of what it's become in the last decade or so.

Kia Kaha (stay strong) Rebekah, and thank you for all your dedication to the Camino.xo

 

[cathietherese]

It seems we are all in a liminal time now, and if we can expect anything it will continue to include the unexpected - and that is not always a bad thing, yeah? For me, I do take heart and faith that hope lies in the urgency to find treatment and/or vaccine for Covid 19 across the globe. Eventually, the path will seem clearer, and yes, different. I also see hope in the way many people are using this lockdown time for reflexivity as John Brierley discussed in his recent conversation with Ivar about what is really presenting as issues in their life right now, and more broadly as global citizens.
As far as the Camino family goes I keep drawing on the old lore, "You may leave the Camino, but the Camino will never leave you". If I have any 'gut-feeling' about this, I say it humbly because there are so many outcomes we don't have certainty around, not the least of which the virus itself. That said, it's a gut-feeling/hope I have that the enforced self reliance of lockdown may have birthed a wider appreciation for simplicity. Paradoxically, different modes of outreach are demonstrating people can be 'alone together' which runs in stark contrast to neoliberal narratives about 'you are on your own'. I hope the present "shakedown" @Rebekah Scott speaks off engenders security out of precarity, eventually just as etymylogically misery is part of mercy.
Having said that, I am really interested in the zoom chat discussions around support for Camino operators during this difficult time and again hope that the many people who regard the Camino as life-changing/saving and salving can establish ways to support initiatives to ensure the Camino experience never leaves us materially, while we all adhere to the internal we carry from the experience.
Lastly, with the intent of hope this poem I wrote in 2014 seems to have a deep resonance with 2020 and potentially future caminos. For comfort then:
Dear God

Help me to be real.
Help me to accept what is.
Help me to accept myself and others as they truly are.
Help me to remember life is all learning, stuff and stage props – don’t get too attached to material things.
Love what you do have, when you have it.
Love who you have, when you have them.
One step at a time, one foot in front of the other – help me with patience.
Help me with trust.
Help me to unload expectation, status and other rubbish from my pack regularly.
Honour the lessons of equality the Camino taught me.
Thanks for this incredible journey called life.
The Camino that never stops.
Help me return to the Camino often.
Return of the same.
Ultreia!xo

 

[alhartman]

This Forum is a lovable bubble. From my calculation of SdC Cathedral statistics, 13% of the compostellas go to English speaking countries. I am hesitate to extrapolate views here to the general camino.
My first camino in 2005 there were 2047 fellow USA (1546 more from Canada!!); in 2010, The Year of the Way, there were 3334, and in 2018 there were 18,582. So the experience has changed vastly over the years.
This plague is still too new to have much scientific data on which to base forecasts. When I look at the spread in places like cruise ships, prisons, Singapore foreign worker dormitories, etc, it seems pretty clear that we cannot have a camino based on 'albergue experience' or 'camino family' until herd immunity and/or vaccine is the norm.
I am incredibly grateful to all of my camino experiences, especially the early ones. I dearly hope for yet one more camino, but, as I read some of the albergue design ideas here, and some policy things that will need to happen to keep everyone safe and healthy, I fear it will have wrong expectations resulting in a camino that I would not like!
Guess I truly have become an analog person in a digital age!!

 

[David Tallan]

I can.'t speak to the short term. I expect that the big change in the medium to long term, which will affect all travel - not just the Camino - is likely to be some sort of technology enabled contact tracing, hopefully with privacy protections built in. This will likely stick around so that we are better prepared for future virulent virii.

 

[martin1ws]

As I sit with this over time, I talk with pilgrims and hospitaleros and Camino jefes, I see a real-shaking out going on, economically and spiritually.
...

I want to quote your blog post directly as well:

blog

“Go with your gut,” the wise guys say. “Do the right thing,” the other wise guys say. “Take my money and give it to people who really need it,” the donors say. “The Spanish economy is in freefall. The Camino people I liked so much during my trip are suffering now! They might not survive!

www.peaceableprojects.org

I hope very much that you are too pessimistic about the albergues.

If anyone wants to help, there is this overview-thread:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/categories/help-a-camino-business-in-these-covid-19-times.210/

 

[ebrandt]

I do not think the corona virus experience will lead to profound changes in all of us, but I think the camino will change profoundly. And I think our collective need to get back to normal will clash with the the profound changes that are going to happen along the camino.

As much as I would love to think that this corona virus will work some major changes in our lives -- less materialism, more empathy, back to basics, whatever -- I just don't think it will have such an impact, at least in the short term. Yes, I think the experience will leave an imprint on us that may slowly lead to re-evaluations over time, but I think such change will be a slow and imperceptible process -- something like the way the Great Depression or the Vietnam War marked earlier generations..

Rather, I think most people are anxious to "return to normal." One only has to look at many of the posts in this forum to find evidence for this. I don't see much concrete thinking about how our individual lives and circumstances will change. Yes there is lots of high level pondering, but not a lot of on-the-ground thinking. Regarding the camino, we are anxious to have the camino experience that others have had or to recreate our prior experiences. We are debating the best albergues, the lightest gear and so on. Many of us (me included) want to try to "fix" the challenges we imagine by doing things like throwing money at the camino so the businesses will all be there when we come back. We really aren't imagining a profoundly different camino experience. We are just thinking the beds in albergues might be further apart.

I think @Rebekah Scott is spot on when she says

There's going to be a whole lot less infrastructure for a while. A lot of places are not going to survive the crisis. The Spanish tourism industry and the Camino jefes will struggle to find the new rhythm, creating instability. Tourists hate places that are not sure and cut & dried. They will stop coming.
Pilgrims will come, or come back again, and find the camino is not what they expected. Things will be more expensive. The trail will be more rugged and challenging, with longer walks between stops and fewer options once they arrive. There may well be more religion going on. There will be fewer pilgrims, and fewer places desigened only for them, and fewer services built around their needs.
The Camino may fall out of fashion for a few years, or many years.
It's happened before.

I don't mean to be critical of all of our efforts and thoughts and plans for future caminos. I am right in there with everyone else. I have to cancel my upcoming August camino and have distracted myself for hours during quarantine, planning the camino I will replace it with. Should I walk the Via de la Plata or should I combine the Vasco, Frances and Invierno? I am meticulously planning out my stages on each alternative in reliance on all the guides and posts of the past even though I know that many albergues, bars and stores will not reopen. I know I will return, but in my heart of hearts I know it will be to a profoundly different place and experience. I will need to walk further, pay more, carry a bigger pack with things like a sleeping pad, sleeping bag and increased food supplies .

I think these changes will disappoint and deter many would-be pilgrims. Some people will not be able to physically deal with the changes -- the distances will be too far, the pensions and casa rurals will be fewer, maybe the mochilla services some need will be out of business. Many others will be worried, sad, disappointed, afraid and deterred by these changes.

I think we will all have to be ready to walk a more difficult and risky camino.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

think we will all have to be ready to walk a more difficult and risky camino.

Everything you outline in your post sounds very possible, to me.
But in your heart, don’t you actually like this thought?

I don’t mean to be critical of anyone, but that’s the sense I get from many people on this forum. They say one thing, but what they really believe is that it wouldn’t be so bad if the Camino crashed and the hordes left. Wouldn’t Venice be a much more charming place if it wasn’t for all the tourists?

And I’m not sure I disagree....

(edit) Also, I think that once It’s safe to travel again many of the shuttered businesses will reappear. Probably quite quickly, because they’ll be a demand for the services. The people who are running them will have a very hard time for a while, though. But I think that’s going to be the case where I live as well. And all over the planet.

 

[ebrandt]

But in your heart, don’t you actually like this thought?

I do .... for me. But I think of many people who may not be able to do that more risky Camino.... It’s such a conundrum.

 

[Anamiri]

"14 day quarantine period at a hotel at the traveler's expense " -
It is difficult to find more than 20 days to travel for some travelers. Therefore, such
actions will be unpopular.

And also for many countries would also require more quarantine on the return journey thus adding an additional month to a 4-5 week Camino..
Adding 2 weeks to the beginning of a Camino is also not practical for those outside of the Schengen area, where we have limited time anyway.

 

[KJFSophie]

How about soap...lol I just think of how many bars/restrooms/alburgues had no soap available...always had to be lugging soap and/or hand sanitizer. Pretty sure toilet paper will need to be available.
I want to think I'll be able to walk again, but in my heart of hearts I know it will be years before safe travel for this kind of trek will exist. All that made the camino endearing ( crowded alburgues, communal meals, sharing food, masses, chatting up with strangers over miles, less than clean bathrooms, less than optimal kitchens or laundry areas ) My guess is that many who were barely able to remain open in the past will now be abandoned. The few places that remain will have even less beds available due to spacing. Private lodging and hotels will be booked months/years ahead.
Big Heavy Sigh.....I'm grateful for the seven camino I was blessed to have completed and will hold on to faith that it will happen again. Grateful too for having taken over 10,000 photos !

 

[MateoLargo]

Who knows if any kind of pilgrimage will be possible in the next few months. But at some stage - long before everyone can get vaccinated - the camino will open with a range of new restrictions, tools, and ways of operating. My guess is that these might include the following:

One model would be Korea's approach to arrivals from overseas
1. Coronavirus test on arrival
2. 14 day quarantine period at a hotel at the traveler's expense
3. Requirement to install an app that monitors location (and requires twice daily input of health data)
4. Free to travel after quarantine completed but cell phone location is monitored

Another possible tool would be documentation for people who can prove that they have recovered from a coronavirus infection (making them a lower risk - we assume - for reinfection).

Other restrictions would likely be introduced to reinforce social distancing - e.g. albergues would be required to increase space between pilgrims. They might have to set aside unoccupied bunks between occupied bunks etc. This reduces their capacity in ways that might make it untenable.

Potential "no go" areas. Pilgrims might be required to detour around cities that are dealing with sudden outbreaks. Guardia Civil would pick up pilgrims who are heading toward those areas.

Insurance requirements - Non-EU pilgrims might be required to take out an insurance policy to cover medical costs, since it's likely that some pilgrims will end up requiring extended hospital treatment. Even EU pilgrims might have to sign up to some kind of additional insurance if the rules about EHIC privileges are changed.

Religious services suspended. A pilgrimage without pilgrim masses?

Greater vigilance and enforcement of hygiene in albergues. More frequent and thorough cleaning of albergues. Requirement to wear masks indoors. etc.

Who knows if any kind of pilgrimage will be possible in the next few months. But at some stage - long before everyone can get vaccinated - the camino will open with a range of new restrictions, tools, and ways of operating. My guess is that these might include the following:

One model would be Korea's approach to arrivals from overseas
1. Coronavirus test on arrival
2. 14 day quarantine period at a hotel at the traveler's expense
3. Requirement to install an app that monitors location (and requires twice daily input of health data)
4. Free to travel after quarantine completed but cell phone location is monitored

Another possible tool would be documentation for people who can prove that they have recovered from a coronavirus infection (making them a lower risk - we assume - for reinfection).

Other restrictions would likely be introduced to reinforce social distancing - e.g. albergues would be required to increase space between pilgrims. They might have to set aside unoccupied bunks between occupied bunks etc. This reduces their capacity in ways that might make it untenable.

Potential "no go" areas. Pilgrims might be required to detour around cities that are dealing with sudden outbreaks. Guardia Civil would pick up pilgrims who are heading toward those areas.

Insurance requirements - Non-EU pilgrims might be required to take out an insurance policy to cover medical costs, since it's likely that some pilgrims will end up requiring extended hospital treatment. Even EU pilgrims might have to sign up to some kind of additional insurance if the rules about EHIC privileges are changed.

Religious services suspended. A pilgrimage without pilgrim masses?

Greater vigilance and enforcement of hygiene in albergues. More frequent and thorough cleaning of albergues. Requirement to wear masks indoors. etc.

No offense, but this new Camino sounds miserable. One of the biggest joys of the Camino is the sense of freedom. In my opinion, most of these things won’t happen. Things will go back to the way they were. Memories are short.

 

[Kiwi-family]

If the camino becomes a path littered/supported by hotels I’ll likely lose interest. I like the sports halls with their gym mats and back rooms of town halls and cramped rooms and palace dungeons and old school houses....I know they’re not for everyone, but I don’t relish the thought of traipsing from one comfortable modern establishment to the next equally well-equipped fancy hangout. I do hope the camino can hold on to its simplicity.

 

[martin1ws]

...I want to think I'll be able to walk again, but in my heart of hearts I know it will be years before safe travel for this kind of trek will exist. ...

I think really there are very different kind of caminos. Part of my first camino was the the Camino de Invierno. I think that the few pilgrims that did the Camino de Invierno in e. g. 2018 can walk the Camino de Invierno more or less immediately after the travel restriction will disappear. And there will be not that much change on such a lonely camino...

On the Camino Francés it will be different... but if it will be very different or only a little bit different will depend. When will the travel restrictions and the restrictions, that prevent the normal albergue life, end... in 4 weeks or in 4 years or when in between? And here anyone who wants to help can help...

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/categories/help-a-camino-business-in-these-covid-19-times.210/

 

[Deleted member 73526]

No offense, but this new Camino sounds miserable. One of the biggest joys of the Camino is the sense of freedom. In my opinion, most of these things won’t happen. Things will go back to the way they were. Memories are short.

I think that things will go back to the way they were, more or less, when we have a widely distributed vaccine or therapeutic treatments that reduce the morbidity and mortality rate of COVID-19. I expect that we will go through a period of transition to get to that state and that some of the measures that I listed will be implemented (some already are being implemented in some countries).
I agree that the camino won't be as fun or as free with measures that prevent a recurrence of what we are going through at the moment. But memories are not so short that Spain would allow another uncontrolled outbreak of COVID-19 in the next couple of years.

 

[Delphinoula]

This whole discussion seems to me wash me but don’t make me wet.
Let me quote my favorite movie
Luc : And I am thinking... you should not be flying anywhere. ... Kate : I've spent most of my adult life trying to protect myself from exactly this ... There's no home safe enough, there's no country nice enough, there's no ... Kate : Incredible.
I know this is theoretical here, but am I the only one that feels extremely uncomfortable about all this tracking and monitoring ? This Utopia description above we had before . Do you really want to life in that world again?
I lived in Spain when the Guardia civil just did that. Not a pretty picture or who do you think built the water canals in the south of Seville?
In old time vacations passes where standard requirements for traveling abroad. When we have an vaccination and It is widely available to the world traveling will resume.
Just monitor the monitoring especially those ones that circumvent democratic processes in the name of health!
We do not need to redesign Or do we?
Just don’t poop everywhere and not take it with you. Trash the places steal the crops. It seems to me deseases will be allways there. But that would require us on a daily base to alter our behavior. Not an easy thing.
Sweden tried to appeal to the common sense of its citizens, but is now sucked down the rapid hole.
Since common courtesies seem to be forgotten focus on how to be the ideal guest in Spain in the world. I was taught not to be a burden on people.
Wash your hand don’t touch everything you see when you go shopping don’t sneeze in your hand or in somebodies face, wash your hands after relieving yourself .
Realy we did not do that before It could prove desasterous to us.

so wonderful to have a save Camino....
when did we ever had one?

Are we kidding ourselves, because our countries seem so much safer?
I try not to focus on the half ful cup of water but what I can do?

Don’t waste water living in hot countries taught me that.
Reuse a sometimes tied purse taught me that.
Don't produce so much trash go for more sustainable solution.
Make your food from the scratch limited resources taught me that.
Try to take care of today the Camino taught me that.
Celebrate live and not on your funeral day when my days seemed numbered thaught me that.

So it’s maybe time for ideas that may proof useful not expensive and use what’s there to improve our future Camino.

What will you do?

 

[MateoLargo]

I think that things will go back to the way they were, more or less, when we have a widely distributed vaccine or therapeutic treatments that reduce the morbidity and mortality rate of COVID-19. I expect that we will go through a period of transition to get to that state and that some of the measures that I listed will be implemented (some already are being implemented in some countries).
I agree that the camino won't be as fun or as free with measures that prevent a recurrence of what we are going through at the moment. But memories are not so short that Spain would allow another uncontrolled outbreak of COVID-19 in the next couple of years.

My experience with covid-19 has been much less severe than you hear on the news. I contracted it along with 5 other people in my office around March 13th. At least 5 people in our families caught it, as well. For all but one of us, the experience was nothing more than flu-like symptoms, and mild flu at that. For one man who was older, with cancer and heart conditions, he contracted penumonia. But he, too, has recovered. My belief (for what it’s worth is that the mortality rate will end up being much lower than was originally thought, so I predict the Camino will be back up running in near-original form by next summer. Of course, this wouldn’t help us now. I was scheduled to do my final leg of Leon to Santiago in late June my wife, and despite all my wishful thinking, I don’t see that happening

 

[trecile]

My experience with covid-19 has been much less severe than you hear on the news. I contracted it along with 5 other people in my office around March 13th. At least 5 people in our families caught it, as well. For all but one of us, the experience was nothing more than flu-like symptoms, and mild flu at that. For one man who was older, with cancer and heart conditions, he contracted penumonia. But he, too, has recovered. My belief (for what it’s worth is that the mortality rate will end up being much lower than was originally thought, so I predict the Camino will be back up running in near-original form by next summer. Of course, this wouldn’t help us now. I was scheduled to do my final leg of Leon to Santiago in late June my wife, and despite all my wishful thinking, I don’t see that happening

I agree that the mortality rate is indeed fairly low with this virus. The problem seems to be that it is very infectious and some people become gravely ill, while others have little to no symptoms. We need to know why this is. It's easy to say that vulnerable people should be protected, but we don't know exactly why some people are more vulnerable than others.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

My belief (for what it’s worth is that the mortality rate will end up being much lower than was originally thought, so I predict the Camino will be back up running in near-original form by next summer.

It would be lovely if you're correct, but I'm not so optimistic.

The most optimistic model that I have seen along these lines (in the sense of there being far more mild and asymptomatic cases than we currently realize) estimates that 15% of Spain's population have been infected already. I think that's a huge over-estimate, but even if it's true, that would mean that it will take three to four waves like this one for Spain to reach a meaningful "herd immunity," (assuming that people who recover get lasting immunity). I don't think that people in Spain would willingly allow three more waves of this magnitude, with all of the strain that it puts on the health system in addition to the mortality.

Fingers crossed that you're right and it all turns out to be less serious. We will know when there are large scale antibody tests of the population.

 

[trecile]

It would be lovely if you're correct, but I'm not so optimistic.

The most optimistic model that I have seen along these lines (in the sense of there being far more mild and asymptomatic cases than we currently realize) estimates that 15% of Spain's population have been infected already. I think that's a huge over-estimate, but even if it's true, that would mean that it will take three to four waves like this one for Spain to reach a meaningful "herd immunity," (assuming that people who recover get lasting immunity). I don't think that people in Spain would willingly allow three more waves of this magnitude, with all of the strain that it puts on the health system in addition to the mortality.

Fingers crossed that you're right and it all turns out to be less serious. We will know when there are large scale antibody tests of the population.

And with only 15% of the population infected they had to turn ice rinks into morgues.
One of the big dangers of this virus is those with mild or no symptoms out there spreading the infection.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

And with only 15% of the population infected they had to turn ice rinks into morgues.
One of the big dangers of this virus is those with mild or no symptoms out there spreading the infection.

Well, I think it's much less than 15%, but we won't know until we know.

 

[Dani7]

Seems that with testing done now for antibodies, the hopes for herd immunity or “lasting” immunity are not as hoped.

WHO warns that few have developed antibodies to Covid-19

Herd immunity hopes dealt blow by report suggesting only 2%-3% of people have been infected

www.google.ca

 

[Andpartner]

20k dead so far in the UK, seems serious to me, and that’s only the hospital deaths. Herd immunity looks less likely than had been hoped. I also had a mild dose (probably as no testing). I don’t think things will be close to normal on the Camino next summer. I hope I’m wrong.

 

[David Pettee]

The Camino will be what it has always been. It has always adapted to the realities of pestilence, war, good times and bad. We possess no more capacity than any of our pilgrim ancestors to design it the way we wish. As many of us want to be good guests, we'll wait until the good people of Spain let us know when it is safe to return. Those of who do will likely find it is a very different experience. We'll deal with it. That's what we do.

 

[poogeyejr]

My experience with covid-19 has been much less severe than you hear on the news. I contracted it along with 5 other people in my office around March 13th.

I think the immune, the ones who have already had COVID-19, are the ones that are going to bring back the business to the Camino. They will be able to travel the world without the two-week Quarantine on either end, and will be able to re-infuse the economy with activities. While, I think you were very lucky in your exposure experience, the people I know have not had such a uneventful experience.

All of them had the worst flu they ever had, and for most of them ,didn’t get it in their lungs but for the one that it did, he spent quite a bit of time (over a month) in the hospital.

I think until we get a vaccination, the Immune will restart our economy including the Camino.

 

[David Pettee]

Today from the WHO: "The World Health Organization is warning that people who have had coronavirus are not necessarily immune by the presence of antibodies from getting the virus again.

“There is no evidence yet that people who have had Covid-19 will not get a second infection,” the WHO said in a new scientific brief.

The WHO is warning against governments issuing “immunity passports” to people who have had Covid-19, assuming they are safe to resume normal life."

 

[Lirsy]

From my point of view there are two main issues:

• Travel restrictions
• Albergues

For the first one there are already some proposals on the table. The local government of the Canary Islands has proposed that tourists be allowed as long as they have a certificate stating that they are coronavid free. It is only a proposal, it has not yet been agreed with the central government, it lacks details, etc. But I think in the end it will be something similar to this ... It can be an entry tax to cover the insurance for treatment if necessary, it can be a compulsory health insurance. it could be ..... but something similar to that. You can be sure that being Spain a country with 85 million tourists per year, each administration is working hard to make tourism and the safety of the population compatible.

For the second problem, the albergues, I spoke with two albergue managers today. They have a general idea that the albergues may reopen in August or September. Under what conditions? They are working on it. It is a difficult problem. Most albergues can barely survive from the financial point of view. Reducing the number of pilgrims per albergue and forcing them to install some security measures will force many of them to close. I really think that many of them closing is inevitable.

Anyhow, I am quite convinced that the Camino will reopen in the third / fourth quarter of this year, but it will be heavily damaged and it will take several years to return to the precoronavid state.
.
Anyhow, I am a crazy optimist and I keep planning my next Camino. Hopefully, I will make two Caminos this year, one once the Camino reopens and the other arriving in Santiago on December 30 for the opening of the Holy Year. Don' tell me I am crazy ... I already know that!!!

Buen Camino & Ultreia !!

 

[leichecerca]

It’s so easy to fall into despair. I too am saddened by the prospect of not being able to physically return to the Camino for the foreseeable future, and by the economic crisis unfolding in the wake of the virus, for Spain and for the whole world. It seems highly unlikely that carefree travel will resume before a vaccine is developed, and that could be years away.

I am so deeply grateful I got to go when I did. I’m trying to focus on the REAL Camino — the interior journey that drew me to make a pilgrimage in the first place, and that has stayed with me long after I did. Quarantine life and Camino life have many parallels — a simple, very basic & pared-down existence with roadblocks, uncertain food options, sketchy personal hygiene, more introspection than is sometimes comfortable, enhanced appreciation for the kindness & small gestures of others, and unexpected gifts. Buen Camino my friends.

 

[Deleted member 56069]

I have been very blessed to walk six Camino's so far. Reading through most of this thread makes me realize I may have walked my last one for quite some time. The potential of quarantines to and from are a complete non starter for me time wise.
Albergues as they currently are set up are also a non-starter with the close contact involved.
A vaccine may or may not happen anytime soon or ever. The common cold and SAR 1 have never had a vaccine developed for them.
Hopefully in time it can get back to somewhat what it was before covid-19, if not I will continue to enjoy the outdoors at home and our nearby mountains.
I will always have fond memories of Spain and the people I have met though.

 

[hughb]

I live in Portugal, very close to the Caminho. Life is very different. Slowly, the world is changing. The regulations for farm workers are in place, people are returning to the land. The regulations for hotels are in place, soon some hotels in some locations will be allowed to reopen. The new regulations for restaurants are now in place, some may reopen in January 2021 if they can abide by the rules.

But what of the Caminho? What of the albergues? How many have started to adapt? Who is planning for the reopening. Anyone who thinks it is going to be the same, dream on. I always loved albergues and sharing the experience with pilgrims. Would i, in future use an albergue that hasn't adapted. No. So it would be good to hear from you and how you anticipate that the Caminho will change, as it definitely won't be the same.

 

[jungleboy]

I always loved albergues and sharing the experience with pilgrims. Would i, in future use an albergue that hasn't adapted. No.

What adaptation measures would an albergue have to take for you to stay in one? Just curious.

 

[David]

Bathrooms, showers, bunk rooms, kitchens, registration desk … I cannot see how it could possibly be done.

Unless it were one pilgrim a night and the whole refugio completely disinfected before the next pilgrim arrives the next day ....
.........… if Camino does ever open again I predict fewer numbers and many backpacking tents.

 

[Sparleb644]

All very good ideas. You’re basically suggesting an almost quarantine world. Which may be what is necessary if anybody wants to do anything like this and preserve safety. But I don’t think you would get a lot of takers under those conditions. And since you wouldn’t get a lot of takers, I don’t think the albergues would be open anyway.

And I wasn’t really thinking that this would happen in the next couple months. I changed my original post to reflect that.

The other aspect is monitoring pilgrims. It would be a big job. Without practical consequences for undisciplined or careless pilgrims. I would be willing to take on those 4 steps, but how many others?
We have a Madrid Camino planned for June. Just the 14 day quarantine throws a huge spanner in the works. We won’t go.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Bathrooms, showers, bunk rooms, kitchens, registration desk … I cannot see how it could possibly be done.

Unless it were one pilgrim a night and the whole refugio completely disinfected before the next pilgrim arrives the next day ....
.........… if Camino does ever open again I predict fewer numbers and many backpacking tents.

The garden areas around the alburgue may end up with more sleeping tent-users than the bedspace inside.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Just think about the fact that a primary strategy to reduce exposure risks to respiratory virus, like COVID-19, centers on increasing, by a good degree, the ventilation in enclosed spaces. Then think about how much conflict arises from pilgrims who want to keep windows open vs closed.

 

[M&A]

Some good points for the future of Camino. We've decided not to walk another stage of the Csmino this year. Had flights booked for 14th May. Airline has offered vouchers so hopefully next year at some stage.
I believe in the absence of a Vaccine all countries are looking at some type of longer term approach to Manage Covid 19 going forward. One which will facilitate easing some restrictions and allowing economies to open for business albeit on a smaller scale and at a slower pace. This would have to be sustainable whilst prioritising people safely and minimising the huge risk of a second surge. A tall order I agree, however the absence of a vaccine there is no other real choice.

 

[wayfarer]

Please stay on topic, if you want to post silly responses you can do it here.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/humor-in-times-of-covid-round-3.67464/

[Edited to add: A humour post/cartoon was removed from this thread.]

 

[RJM]

Another thing to keep in mind is that most walkers of the Camino, especially the Frances, are not as "into it" as the regular members of this forum. They do not walk multiple Caminos and/or multiple Camino routes. They walk one once in their life and that is it.
So for the future one time walkers the Camino being put on hold as it is now is not that big a deal to them. They have decided to just walk it in the future when they can. When it is safe. They are simply not going to walk an unsafe Camino. Why would they? and being that they're own home countries are suffering from the effects of the virus economically, they have no room to be concerned about the economic state of businesses etc along the Camino routes. Sorry.
This will no doubt make some forum members shudder and perhaps go into a catatonic state, but these one time dare I say casual walkers, see walking the Camino as an interesting way to spend a holiday. It has no spiritual, religious etc aspect to it.

 

[trecile]

This will no doubt make some forum members shudder and perhaps go into a catatonic state, but these one time dare I say casual walkers, see walking the Camino as an interesting way to spend a holiday. It has no spiritual, religious etc aspect to it.

Judging by what I read on various Camino groups on Facebook, this is not necessarily more true of "one and done" Camino walkers than repeat walkers. And I wouldn't say that all of those walking multiple Caminos are doing it for the spiritual or spiritual aspects. I walk for the simple joy of it - not for religion or spiritual reasons.

 

[hughb]

As I thought experiment, I’m wondering how the Camino (let’s say the Camino Francés) could be redesigned to make it possible for people to safely walk it in the world that’s going to start appearing in the next few months.

Or for next year or even farther into the future if the situation continues for years as I think it might. A world which I imagine will have less restrictions than we have now, but still some.

How do we make it safe for pilgrims, and residents, and business owners of the areas the Camino passes through?

I had a few ideas but I don’t want to lead this thread anywhere…

I certainly think that now is the time for everyone associated with any Camino to start planning. Costs will rise as less people will be allowed. Gone will be the big dormitories, replaced possibly with individual cells for sleeping. Hygiene will need to be improved dramatically. Possibly even camping in the grounds might be encouraged. In Portugal near the surf beaches the campsites offer small plastic pods for individual surfers, that can literally be powerwashed. They simply have a sleeping platform and a small storeage area.

Group meals will be a thing of the past. Individual small, well seperated tables will possibly become the norm. The new regulations in Portugal for when the restaurants reopen as late as next year are quite strict with a massively reduced seating capacity and huge testing and hygiene implications.

Maybe all albergues will be forced to test pilgrims on arrival for the virus.

The Camino will return I am sure, but not as we know it and not anytime soon. Possibly, like our borders, the Camino will reopen to people living in Europe, a long time before the rest of the world.

 

[LTfit]

I certainly think that now is the time for everyone associated with any Camino to start planning. Costs will rise as less people will be allowed. Gone will be the big dormitories, replaced possibly with individual cells for sleeping. Hygiene will need to be improved dramatically. Possibly even camping in the grounds might be encouraged. In Portugal near the surf beaches the campsites offer small plastic pods for individual surfers, that can literally be powerwashed. They simply have a sleeping platform and a small storeage area.

Group meals will be a thing of the past. Individual small, well seperated tables will possibly become the norm. The new regulations in Portugal for when the restaurants reopen as late as next year are quite strict with a massively reduced seating capacity and huge testing and hygiene implications.

Maybe all albergues will be forced to test pilgrims on arrival for the virus.

The Camino will return I am sure, but not as we know it and not anytime soon. Possibly, like our borders, the Camino will reopen to people living in Europe, a long time before the rest of the world.

Individual sleeping cells? Individual small, well separated tables?

If months of being closed doesn't do the businesses under, these steps would. Just imagine the investment!

I am a new albergue owner and although the current situation is much better than most (2 rooms of 2, one of 4, one of 6 and one of 9) the mere thought of needing to construct something of the such is quite disheartening. I certainly hope that we don't reach that point.

 

[NorthernLight]

It is also possible that groups and family bubbles become a new norm. If a group is travelling together and strictly abide by the same stages and share space, they could be welcomed into those dorms. Camino families could take on a new importance.

It would be harder for all of us solo pilgrims to be welcomed into a dorm.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

The original poster here.

Thank you for all the lovely replies to my question. But I don’t think any of us came up with a really out-of-the-box idea. The problem is that most of these responses don’t take into account that you were asking micro businesses to make big expensive changes. Read @LTfit response above. As someone who runs a one-man, low profit, business, I can tell you that big expenses are impossible to absorb.

So, I’m sorry, after reading all these replies, I honestly don’t think there is a way to keep the Camino going in a world that is still threatened by COVID-19. There just isn’t enough money in this for people to make all these changes, or for the government to put resources into it. Maybe if it becomes part of a European Union project with bond issues, to pay for all the changes in the infrastructure. But seriously, why bother? It would probably be cheaper to expand welfare in areas impacted by the lack of tourism, then to try to change the entire infrastructure.

A few hardy souls, or those with more resources or need, will walk the Camino at the first possibility.

The ”normal,” Camino, the one for the average person, will come back along with all the other tourism in the world: when it’s safe to do so. Whether this is a vaccine, better treatments, or herd immunity, I’m not sure. But one of those things will have to happen first.

 

[hughb]

Individual sleeping cells? Individual small, well separated tables?

If months of being closed doesn't do the businesses under, these steps would. Just imagine the investment!

I am a new albergue owner and although the current situation is much better than most (2 rooms of 2, one of 4, one of 6 and one of 9) the mere thought of needing to construct something of the such is quite disheartening. I certainly hope that we don't reach that point.

While i am sorry for your current loss, I still think that things will change dramatically, now is the time to plan for your future. What if any are the guidelines from the government. How are you and all the other albergues going to adapt. Who knows. I certainly do not have the answers. But tomorrow will certainly be very different.

 

[naplesdon]

I was accused of having a cloudly crystal ball for uttering many of the same sentiments last week. How the times have change in the matter of just a week's time. And they will again, no doubt.

 

[LTfit]

While i am sorry for your current loss, I still think that things will change dramatically, now is the time to plan for your future. What if any are the guidelines from the government. How are you and all the other albergues going to adapt. Who knows. I certainly do not have the answers. But tomorrow will certainly be very different.

We have no idea at this point. We are still waiting to hear under what conditions we can walk or exercise outside this weekend! Alone or with family members for sure but how long or how far is unclear.

 

[RJM]

No offense to anyone, but some really unrealistic theories or expectations of what will happen to the Camino. Maybe a bit of denial in the possibility of it just plain shutting down for several years. Shutting down the same as so many other popular activities from Disney parks to sporting events, casinos to popular beaches.

 

[Richmond Gardner]

A very good read, Rebekah. and very depressing. There aren’t very many good ideas on how to solve the economic problems caused by this. Not ideas that also preserve safety, anyway, At least that I have seen. But I have faith in human ingenuity. There’s billions of good minds on this planet. Maybe one of them, or some of them, will come up with ideas that none of the rest of us thought of. I think that’s our only hope for this to be over soon.

One thing I do suspect is that in 20 years, this will just be history. A bad time that not many people even remember very well. The destruction and tragedy that this is causing will not affect the world that much at all in the long run. Like grandparents remembering the depression. It’s funny how all that works.

Well, while this version of Coronavirus may pass into history, similar contagious virus will continue to be with us. (And absent a multilateral response, will wreak havoc again). It does seem that we forget these things. None of us remember, nor could we, the Spanish Flu, which was more deadly in the second wave.
i don’t really think we will forget this experience, in our lifetime. My grandfather was a young man at the beginning of the depression and it colored his thinking, in a major way, for the rest of his life.

 

[Richmond Gardner]

No offense to anyone, but some really unrealistic theories or expectations of what will happen to the Camino. Maybe a bit of denial in the possibility of it just plain shutting down for several years. Shutting down the same as so many other popular activities from Disney parks to sporting events, casinos to popular beaches.

Have you seen the recent beach pictures?

 

[Nat2020]

I am not religious.
But even if the first Camino is just a walk, then Camino becomes your religion. And every Camino walk is a spiritual update.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I am not religious.
But even if the first Camino is just a walk, then Camino becomes your religion. And every Camino walk is a spiritual update.

For me, the Camino is never a 'religion' in and of itself. . . . but when I do walk a Camino, I do so for religious/spiritual reasons.

I do a Camino pilgrimage for motivations other than recreation. If I just wanted to do a long walk, I wouldn't bother with flying over to Europe. I would stick to the area where I live, and go backpacking up in the Cascades.

 

[nycwalking]

Have you seen the recent beach pictures?

Last weekend some SoCal beaches opened.

Now; they are closed for next few weeks.

I pray we have a vaccine and soon.

I miss those rickety matrimonial bunks.

 

[Kathy F.]

Wow! So many thoughtful responses!!
I have to add my $0.02:

1. Our Camino has been through plagues before, and survived.
2. If this virus means that some albergues become a little cleaner, a tiny bit more spacious, great!
3. My plane fare maxes me out, so I need to stay in inexpensive lodging. And, God help me, I must admit that staying in albergues is part of the adventure.
4. Some scientists have speculated that every 11 years, humanity seems to be affected by a new, potentially deadly disease.
5. We don't decide the date, the virus decides the date.
6. I think there have always been ill people walking the Camino, in spite of their illness.
7. Pilgrims are cautious, but not easily stopped. They will begin to walk again when they believe it is safe and the governments welcome them.
8. When currently visiting certain foreign countries, one must show that one has received certain inoculations to prevent endemic, contagious diseases. if this virus becomes one such disease, we will all be required to get the vaccination, "prove it", then carry on.

With the people who poop on the side of the Camino and don't clean up after themselves, I'm amazed that there hasn't been some kind of gentle, pilgrim-related disease already.

Sorry, I wasn't expecting my train of thought to go off in that direction.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

When currently visiting certain foreign countries, one must show that one has received certain inoculations to prevent endemic, contagious diseases.

I am familiar with recommended vaccinations to protect the individual from becoming ill while visiting certain regions of the world, but in the US, at least, such vaccinations are wholly voluntary, unless, perhaps, one is serving in the military. What are the requirements in some of the other nations represented on the Forum?

One other thought: vaccinations do not provide absolute protection to everyone receiving a vaccination, and the most effective vaccines reach somewhere around 87% effectiveness. There is also a percentage of individuals who cannot take various vaccines due to side effects and contraindications. I wonder how those factors may play into any such protocol of vaccine documentation. Right now, WHO is among organizations that have stated opposition to this type of proposal.

 

[Kathy F.]

davebugg, You are right.

No one walks around with their shot record, as far as I know, at least not for regular "tourist-y" travel (but, ahem, you caught me, we are a military family). I don't know what kind of documentation you could force people to carry around with them to and from the doctor's, then include with a passport.

Perhaps when the vaccine for this virus comes available, it will be a recommended routine shot, like the seasonal flu shot recommended for susceptible groups (i.e. old farts like me). No one checks whether I have had it or not, if I get sick, it's on me.

 

[Richmond Gardner]

Years ago (58!!), when my father took our family overseas through his job at USAID, we had to get all sorts of vaccinations and inoculations which were noted on a yellow health card. You could simply revive this system with a new vaccination and make it mandatory. Just a thought

 

[Richmond Gardner]

Years ago (58!!), when my father took our family overseas through his job at USAID, we had to get all sorts of vaccinations and inoculations which were noted on a yellow health card. You could simply revive this system with a new vaccination and make it mandatory. Just a thought

I don’t know if this card was a condition for entering the countries we went to, in Asia, but everybody had one. I will say it offered no protection against worms or dysentery, but it’s a good basic start.

 

[Bala]

Requiring proof of vaccination and the international yellow vaccine card are very much a part of current international travel to certain areas.

To enter Tanzania (2011) we had to show certificate of vaccination against Yellow Fever when we arrived in country, before we entered the airport and before being allowed to go through immigration and customs.

Last year, to visit several countries in western Africa, we were required to send our Yellow Fever certification along with our visa applications in order to receive our visas. The country of Mali took the temperature of everyone departing the plane (arriving from Senegal) before the individual was allowed into the airport.

In all cases, these were required of everyone entering, regardless of country of citizenship or residence. FWIW, I'm a US citizen and resident. Something along these lines are certainly in the realm of possibility in the wake of this pandemic.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

Years ago (58!!), when my father took our family overseas through his job at USAID, we had to get all sorts of vaccinations and inoculations which were noted on a yellow health card. You could simply revive this system with a new vaccination and make it mandatory. Just a thought

Yes. In fact the system is still in place - In the last few years I've made a couple of trips with a yellow certificate to show that I have been vaccinated against yellow fever. It's a condition of entry for some countries. (When I was a kid, I carried a similar booklet with stamps for yellow fever, smallpox and cholera. I guess that the immunity from those vaccinations will have gone by now, but I still have the old certificate).

Theres some speculation that any immunity from coronavirus may be short-lived (whether acquired from vaccination or infection). If that turns out to be the case, then even wealthy countries will be unable to provide long-lasting protection to the whole population. In that scenario, I think it's quite likely that countries will segment the world into "hot" and "cold" regions - with requirements for people arriving from "hot" regions to have proof of vaccination or immunity.

I'm finding the discourse in this thread frustrating, in that some people seem to rubbish measures and approaches that appear too onerous to them. But I think that it is these cumbersome, onerous, irritating measures that will move us toward where we want to be. if you approach this topic with the premise that no idea is worthy of discussion unless it supports a return of the camino as it was in 2019 - with freedom, ease, and accessibility to people from all walks of life - then I think you just shut down other people's contributions about the approaches that are needed through the transitional period, which is the question that was posted at the start.

 

[NorthernLight]

I recall disembarking a ferry from Rhodes (Greece) to Haifa (Israel) in 1986. A medical team met the ferry and screened for vaccinations. As a Canadian, they waived me through, presumably as they figured my shots would be up to date.

On my first entry by land into South Africa, an immigration officer demanded to see my yellow fever certificate. In this instance he was just being a jerk as I had not travelled in any yellow fever countries in the preceding 6 months, but I had been the year before.

Presumably finding a vaccine won’t stop the search for a better vaccine, at least until a proven one is securely available. The borders could reopen for those with a vaccine record. But the world would have to agree on what that looks like, to protect against forgeries.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

On my first entry by land into South Africa, an immigration officer demanded to see my yellow fever certificate. In this instance he was just being a jerk as I had not travelled in any yellow fever countries in the preceding 6 months, but I had been the year before.

I've read one account of a border control post [not in SA] where people who fail to provide yellow fever certificates are taken to an adjoining medical center. A fee for on-the-spot vaccination is levied. A certificate is issued. The traveler is then free to pass. But what about the vaccination? Oh. We're all out of that medicine. Don't worry. You will be fine.

Presumably finding a vaccine won’t stop the search for a better vaccine, at least until a proven one is securely available. The borders could reopen for those with a vaccine record. But the world would have to agree on what that looks like, to protect against forgeries.

The current yellow fever certificates could be forged with a photocopier. I guess if it became apparent that there was a widespread problem with forgeries, you'd need to rethink that.

 

[C clearly]

What are the requirements in some of the other nations represented on the Forum?

The yellow fever vaccination is one that is required for entry into many countries IF you have traveled recently from certain areas where yellow fever exists. This requirement seems active, for example, in travel from Brazil to neighbouring countries. For a conference I recently attended, this requirement was well publicized. The specific requirements are available on the internet. Exceptions are made for various conditions including being pregnant and being over a certain age e.g. 70.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

The yellow fever vaccination is one that is required for entry into many countries IF you have traveled recently from certain areas where yellow fever exists. This requirement seems active, for example, in travel from Brazil to neighbouring countries.

Yes. China also requires proof of vaccination if you have recently been in regions with endemic yellow fever. Some countries in Asia and Africa require proof of vaccination for all arriving travelers:

Yellow Fever Vaccine | Passport Health Travel Clinics

Passport Health clinics are CDC-approved yellow fever vaccination clinics. The yellow fever vaccine is the best form of protection against the virus. Some countries require yellow fever vaccination for entry.

www.passporthealthusa.com

IATA travel center is a pretty good source for visa and health information even for quite complex trips - it allows you to input the countries you will transit, the passport you're using, your country of residence etc. to generate a customized report. This is a reliable source of information for travel on commercial flights. If you're crossing borders by land, sea, or non-commercial means, then you should check other sources:

IATA - Personalised Passport, Visa & Health travel documentation advice

www.iatatravelcentre.com

 

[Stephan the Painter]

A vaccine would be great. And any country can make any health restrictions it wants on people passing the passport control. As far as Spain would be concerned, of course it would have to be the whole Schengen zone.

We don’t know if we’ll ever have a safe and effective vaccine. Not yet. So at the moment this is just a fantasy idea. Probably in a few months we will know much more if it’s likely to work, Although recently I heard some promising things. I would certainly be happy to get a safe and vetted vaccination and carry around proof of that.

People could forge these things, but most would not. It would still work if you get enough people vaccinated. The disease will start to die out or diminish substantially in frequency.

 

[RJM]

With the people who poop on the side of the Camino and don't clean up after themselves, I'm amazed that there hasn't been some kind of gentle, pilgrim-related disease already.

There is. Norovirus. Fecal-oral route and spread by poor hygiene practices, not properly washing hands and then preparing food, etc. Common when large groups of people communal live. Cruise ships etc. I have always suspected that is what people really have on the Camino when they have the vomits and the runs, and not from drinking unsanitary water as they seem to always blame it on.
Doesn't have to come from the rude peregrino or peregrina that takes a poop on the route. Could very well come from a member of one's "Camino family" who does not know how to properly wash their hands after doing number two (gross ), and assists in the preparation of that wonderful communal dinner everyone had. Handling food and dinnerware. Such a fond memory, except for the bit where one had to run to and from the toilet all night, lol.
I never just grab any of the communal cookwear, cups, utensils etc at an albergue and use it before washing it again. I recommend everyone do the same.

 

[Mycroft]

Who knows if any kind of pilgrimage will be possible in the next few months. But at some stage - long before everyone can get vaccinated - the camino will open with a range of new restrictions, tools, and ways of operating. My guess is that these might include the following:

One model would be Korea's approach to arrivals from overseas
1. Coronavirus test on arrival
2. 14 day quarantine period at a hotel at the traveler's expense
3. Requirement to install an app that monitors location (and requires twice daily input of health data)
4. Free to travel after quarantine completed but cell phone location is monitored

Another possible tool would be documentation for people who can prove that they have recovered from a coronavirus infection (making them a lower risk - we assume - for reinfection).

Other restrictions would likely be introduced to reinforce social distancing - e.g. albergues would be required to increase space between pilgrims. They might have to set aside unoccupied bunks between occupied bunks etc. This reduces their capacity in ways that might make it untenable.

Potential "no go" areas. Pilgrims might be required to detour around cities that are dealing with sudden outbreaks. Guardia Civil would pick up pilgrims who are heading toward those areas.

Insurance requirements - Non-EU pilgrims might be required to take out an insurance policy to cover medical costs, since it's likely that some pilgrims will end up requiring extended hospital treatment. Even EU pilgrims might have to sign up to some kind of additional insurance if the rules about EHIC privileges are changed.

Religious services suspended. A pilgrimage without pilgrim masses?

Greater vigilance and enforcement of hygiene in albergues. More frequent and thorough cleaning of albergues. Requirement to wear masks indoors. etc.

I don't mind the frequent cleaning of albergues! But as far as tracking me, that would require a cell phone, which I don't have, and if I did, I wouldn't keep it turned on. I suppose they could refuse to admit pilgrims who don't have smart phones....

 

[RJM]

I don't mind the frequent cleaning of albergues! But as far as tracking me, that would require a cell phone, which I don't have, and if I did, I wouldn't keep it turned on. I suppose they could refuse to admit pilgrims who don't have smart phones....

That whole scenario mentioned would and could never happen, simply because few if any people are willing or able to follow rules and regulations like that. I mean c'mon...track my whereabouts? Two weeks in quarantine before I even start walking? LOL.
Like has been mentioned already, no vaccine=no Camino.
Reading between the lines of the some of the comments on this thread, I suspect some forum members welcome a set of strict rules who can walk the Camino, and also the added expenses etc. I bet they see it as a way to filter out some of the riff-raff, lol.

 

[Raymond Malpas]

I think we need to remember while some might say the Caminos belong to the world or to even to some greater universal idea of spirit we also need to remember that they intersect with the lives of many people whose lives do not revolve around Caminos i.e the people of Spain. I can only begin to imagine the degree of pain and suffering which has been endured by the wonderful Spanish people. While we all want to think about when WE can walk a Camino again lets give a moment over to allow the people to recover and then when the people of Spain are ready we will be welcomed back but please lets not get to selfish about the desire we have to just be able to walk a Camino. Remember the Camino doesnt end in SDC its a lifelong journey. Best wishes to everyone I trust everyone is safe and well and I do look forward to a time when Pilgrims are welcomed back to Spain.