Contentious posts

Al the optimist · Nov 7, 2015

I see the opinions expressed by others as opportunities to either change or to fine tune those of mine. I try not to react negatively to them even when after consideration I disagree. In these cases I often choose not to respond. If I do so I try to do so in an inoffensive and non-aggressive manner. I like others can fail in my posting. We all have our ways in life and no one way is the only way. My approach to things is just that - my way of dealing with life, what it presents as challenges and what it offers. Nothing more. Healthy debate is a good thing. It is nicer though if it can take place without animosity, as a way of informing and creating understanding. I have learnt a lot from this forum and not just about the Caminos. It, like my Caminos, has helped me evolve as the current me and hopefully for the benefit of all who are in or who have yet to enter into my life. This Camino is overall a good natured place. It has information, guidance, good humour and largely constrained candour. Not everyone agrees about everything and it would be a sadder place if that were the case but occasionally disagreements occur and things may get a little heated and personal. This is something that happens periodically. It is almost like the inevitability of winter, where the mood changes. Fortunately it has always been a temporary thing, a season to be replaced by the joys of spring, summer and autumn. I apologise for rambling on but I merely wish to express how I feel and plea for others in their own ways find it in their hearts to be kind to others in their posts.

wayfarer · Nov 7, 2015

Al the optimist said:
I apologise for rambling on but I merely wish to express how I feel and plea for others in their own ways find it in their hearts to be kind to others in their posts.

Couldn't have put it better Allan. Thank you.
Buen Camino.

jpflavin1 · Nov 7, 2015

Al:

I find this to be a thoughtful and timely post. I would like to add that prior to posting, maybe we should reread a post we find controversial. We should consider that the post was possibly written in a hurry, under stress or maybe English is not the posters primary language. Sometimes asking a probing question or PM will clarify the original post. Then a non aggressive response (which I would suggest we reread before posting) can bring us closer to agreement or at a minimum agree to disagree.

Ultreya,
Joe

Peter Fransiscus · Nov 7, 2015

Al the optimist said:
I see the opinions expressed by others as opportunities to either change or to fine tune those of mine. I try not to react negatively to them even when after consideration I disagree. In these cases I often choose not to respond. If I do so I try to do so in an inoffensive and non-aggressive manner. I like others can fail in my posting. We all have our ways in life and no one way is the only way. My approach to things is just that - my way of dealing with life, what it presents as challenges and what it offers. Nothing more. Healthy debate is a good thing. It is nicer though if it can take place without animosity, as a way of informing and creating understanding. I have learnt a lot from this forum and not just about the Caminos. It, like my Caminos, has helped me evolve as the current me and hopefully for the benefit of all who are in or who have yet to enter into my life. This Camino is overall a good natured place. It has information, guidance, good humour and largely constrained candour. Not everyone agrees about everything and it would be a sadder place if that were the case but occasionally disagreements occur and things may get a little heated and personal. This is something that happens periodically. It is almost like the inevitability of winter, where the mood changes. Fortunately it has always been a temporary thing, a season to be replaced by the joys of spring, summer and autumn. I apologise for rambling on but I merely wish to express how I feel and plea for others in their own ways find it in their hearts to be kind to others in their posts.

Well said, wish you well, Peter.

NualaOC · Nov 7, 2015

Al the optimist said:
I apologise for rambling on but I merely wish to express how I feel and plea for others in their own ways find it in their hearts to be kind to others in their posts.

Very wise ramblings Allan, thank you.

Sailor · Nov 7, 2015

Al, the voice of reason, thanks for your post. In internet forums I follow the same rules I have followed in life,
when I have nothing good to say probably the best thing for me to do is to say nothing. When posting comments on internet forums (note, I used to run a couple of blogs), before clicking the send/reply/submit button I ask myself a couple of questions: Is it fair? Is it true? Is it worth it? If the answer is NO then I move on without posting. Que la luz de Dios alumbre su camino.

p.s. This quote from Mark Twain can be applied to internet forums: It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Deise · Nov 7, 2015

Well said

Former member 42123 · Nov 7, 2015

Al the optimist said:
I see the opinions expressed by others as opportunities to either change or to fine tune those of mine. I try not to react negatively to them even when after consideration I disagree. In these cases I often choose not to respond. If I do so I try to do so in an inoffensive and non-aggressive manner. I like others can fail in my posting. We all have our ways in life and no one way is the only way. My approach to things is just that - my way of dealing with life, what it presents as challenges and what it offers. Nothing more. Healthy debate is a good thing. It is nicer though if it can take place without animosity, as a way of informing and creating understanding. I have learnt a lot from this forum and not just about the Caminos. It, like my Caminos, has helped me evolve as the current me and hopefully for the benefit of all who are in or who have yet to enter into my life. This Camino is overall a good natured place. It has information, guidance, good humour and largely constrained candour. Not everyone agrees about everything and it would be a sadder place if that were the case but occasionally disagreements occur and things may get a little heated and personal. This is something that happens periodically. It is almost like the inevitability of winter, where the mood changes. Fortunately it has always been a temporary thing, a season to be replaced by the joys of spring, summer and autumn. I apologise for rambling on but I merely wish to express how I feel and plea for others in their own ways find it in their hearts to be kind to others in their posts.

Bravo and thanks.

Farmer John · Nov 7, 2015

Sailor said:
Al, the voice of reason, thanks for your post. In internet forums I follow the same rules I have followed in life,
when I have nothing good to say probably the best thing for me to do is to say nothing. When posting comments on internet forums (note, I used to run a couple of blogs), before clicking the send/reply/submit button I ask myself a couple of questions: Is it fair? Is it true? Is it worth it? If the answer is NO then I move on without posting. Que la luz de Dios alumbre su camino.

p.s. This quote from Mark Twain can be applied to internet forums: It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Can't help but admire someone who uses a snail for an avatar and goes by "sailor" Just to help you stay true to your "three tests", it was Abe Lincoln who penned the quote, tho I'm sure Mr. Clemmons oft made use of it, as have I. And usually applied to myself.
In terms of decency and respect for others, this is the best forum I've ever been associated with.
Best regards,
PFJ

Sailor · Nov 7, 2015

Thanks Farmer John, y que la luz de Dios alumbre su camino.

jmcarp · Nov 7, 2015

Sometimes just composing a response, but not actually sending it helps me to vent without actually making a fool of myself. Maybe we can petition Ivar to add a pop-up that says "Are you sure?" when we hit the Post Reply button.

Anniesantiago · Nov 7, 2015

jmcarp said:
Sometimes just composing a response, but not actually sending it helps me to vent without actually making a fool of myself. Maybe we can petition Ivar to add a pop-up that says "Are you sure?" when we hit the Post Reply button.

LOL!
I could use that button!

Camino4Bon · Nov 7, 2015

Thanks Al, a timely and helpful reminder....

Rebekah Scott · Nov 7, 2015

contentious posts? I resemble that remark!
Thank you, Al, for your gentle spirit.

Kanga · Nov 7, 2015

I love your post Al.

Ekelund · Nov 7, 2015

Hi Al, rambling or not, you hit the nail right on the head.
Thank you for your post.

naplesdon · Nov 7, 2015

Al, you are a kind soul and very wise. Thanks for your post as I come out of my shell for a day to write some responses on the Forum. The adios from Kevin....was heart felt and totally understandable but at the same time totally unnecessary. There are many of us who sign out and sign on for obvious reasons but then we come back to lend a hand with some practical advice from time to time.

jumpingin2014 · Nov 8, 2015

Very well said ......... I enjoyed reading this thread and I'm sure I will remember it when I go to respond with something I feel strongly about. Despite thinking I am being rationale .......... sometimes I miss this all together

Mark

alexwalker · Nov 8, 2015

Al, a great post. I would very much like to walk together with you for a couple of days and exchange thoughts, ideas and reflections. I salute you.

VNwalking · Nov 8, 2015

What Al said.
The 'likes' speak for themselves.

Wokabaut_Meri · Nov 8, 2015

Elegantly and so gently said @Al the optimist. Thank you.

Farmer John said:
Can't help but admire someone who uses a snail for an avatar and goes by "sailor" Just to help you stay true to your "three tests", it was Abe Lincoln who penned the quote, tho I'm sure Mr. Clemmons oft made use of it, as have I. And usually applied to myself.
In terms of decency and respect for others, this is the best forum I've ever been associated with.
Best regards,
PFJ

One of my Buddhist teachers had another variation on this quote that I try - but not always succeed - to abide by:
Before you speak, ask yourself:
Is it kind?
is it true?
is it necessary?

does it improve upon the silence?

The last question, in particular, is the critical one.

Just reading through all these responses and the Forum in general, I am reminded of a stained glass window. We all hold one piece of coloured glass, shaped by our upbringing and surroundings and coloured by our souls. This is our unique view of the world. Together they create a larger image and bring varied views to each topic, problem or debate but the essence is the clear light of souls before it shines through the window. Call IT what you will.

VNwalking · Nov 8, 2015

Lovely image, @Wokabaut_Meri--the stained glass.
I'll forgo speculating about IT...but I can say something with some authority about that lovely quote:

Wokabaut_Meri said:
Before you speak, ask yourself:
Is it kind?
is it true?
is it necessary?
does it improve upon the silence?

This is an adaptation of the classical Buddhist formulation of 'right speech.'
The last one is a modern addition--and it replaces what is in the original--which can be even more interestingly useful on a day-to-day basis. So here is the full list:
Is it true?
Is it useful?
Is it spoken with a kind heart?
Is it spoken at the right time? [IOW, can the other person hear/receive it?]

Words may be true, useful, and coming from a benevolent intention--but if they cannot be heard or received, there is no need to bother voicing whatever it is...and insisting on trying generally comes (for me anyway) from an overly developed ego.

joeboybollo · Nov 8, 2015

Blimey,Al, you hit a nerve there.Spot on

dougfitz · Nov 8, 2015

Farmer John said:
Can't help but admire someone who uses a snail for an avatar and goes by "sailor" Just to help you stay true to your "three tests", it was Abe Lincoln who penned the quote, tho I'm sure Mr. Clemmons oft made use of it, as have I. And usually applied to myself.
In terms of decency and respect for others, this is the best forum I've ever been associated with.
Best regards,
PFJ

I regularly use the Quote Investigator site to check the validity of attributions, and neither Lincoln nor Clemens finds favour as the original source. Its conclusion is that:

there is no substantive evidence that this popular adage was coined or employed by Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain. The earliest ascriptions to these famous figures appeared many years post death.

The full text of the analysis can be found here.

joeboybollo · Nov 8, 2015

Doug,I am glad you are not being contentious(??)

Kanga · Nov 8, 2015

We have two year old twin grand-daughters. When they fight (usually over a toy) the best thing is to distract them with something different.

And on a happy note, my husband tells me that Spaniards have taken out the first three poll positions in tonight's motor GP. Which apparently is a good thing if you are Spanish and a motor bike fan.

dougfitz · Nov 8, 2015

joeboybollo said:
Doug,I am glad you are not being contentious(??)

I'm glad. The quote attributed to Buddhist teaching gets a mention here in FakeBuddhistQuotes, but there is a close parallel that can be traced here in RealBuddhistQuotes

Wokabaut_Meri · Nov 8, 2015

Viranani said:
Lovely image, @Wokabaut_Meri--the stained glass.
I'll forgo speculating about IT...but I can say something with some authority about that lovely quote:

This is an adaptation of the classical Buddhist formulation of 'right speech.'
The last one is a modern addition--and it replaces what is in the original--which can be even more interestingly useful on a day-to-day basis. So here is the full list:
Is it true?
Is it useful?
Is it spoken with a kind heart?
Is it spoken at the right time? [IOW, can the other person hear/receive it?]

Words may be true, useful, and coming from a benevolent intention--but if they cannot be heard or received, there is no need to bother voicing whatever it is...and insisting on trying generally comes (for me anyway) from an overly developed ego.

Thank you for the clarification. All variations on the same theme. Yes, if the listener isn't receptive - for whatever reason - silence cannot be improved upon.

VNwalking · Nov 8, 2015

dougfitz said:
The quote attributed to Buddhist teaching gets a mention here in FakeBuddhistQuotes, but there is a close parallel that can be traced here in RealBuddhistQuotes

@dougfitz, I can't tell you how delighted I am to learn about these websites! And how very funny to have found them here. Thanks!

Scott Sweeney · Nov 8, 2015

Al the optimist said:
I see the opinions expressed by others as opportunities to either change or to fine tune those of mine. I try not to react negatively to them even when after consideration I disagree. In these cases I often choose not to respond. If I do so I try to do so in an inoffensive and non-aggressive manner. I like others can fail in my posting. We all have our ways in life and no one way is the only way. My approach to things is just that - my way of dealing with life, what it presents as challenges and what it offers. Nothing more. Healthy debate is a good thing. It is nicer though if it can take place without animosity, as a way of informing and creating understanding. I have learnt a lot from this forum and not just about the Caminos. It, like my Caminos, has helped me evolve as the current me and hopefully for the benefit of all who are in or who have yet to enter into my life. This Camino is overall a good natured place. It has information, guidance, good humour and largely constrained candour. Not everyone agrees about everything and it would be a sadder place if that were the case but occasionally disagreements occur and things may get a little heated and personal. This is something that happens periodically. It is almost like the inevitability of winter, where the mood changes. Fortunately it has always been a temporary thing, a season to be replaced by the joys of spring, summer and autumn. I apologise for rambling on but I merely wish to express how I feel and plea for others in their own ways find it in their hearts to be kind to others in their posts.

How things have changed. Conversations have tanked in quality and demenour, I agree with your post Al and hope you are doing well..

peregrina2000 · Nov 8, 2015

As a pilgrim from the US where the First Amendment and freedom of speech reign supreme, I've seen what happens to civility when people push the limits with the attitude that if you don't like it, tough. Happily, there's no First Amendment on the forum, and I appreciate that the "in your face" approach to discourse is not accepted here.
It's a large diverse community, different native languages, different cultures, and different levels of tolerance for what is and isn't acceptable. In general, I think that "if in doubt, don't say it" is a good rule of thumb. OR take it private. We have a very easy way for people to continue their own private conversations under their own rules of discourse, and that's the "conversation" button.

Introibo · Nov 8, 2015

Al,

What a load of rubbish....

See what I did there

Icacos · Nov 8, 2015

Introibo said:
Al,
What a load of rubbish....

See what I did there

Don't believe in taking moderation to excess, do you?!

Kanga · Nov 8, 2015

Ah, laughter. The best medicine.

Wokabaut_Meri · Nov 9, 2015

Kanga said:
We have two year old twin grand-daughters. When they fight (usually over a toy) the best thing is to distract them with something different.

And on a happy note, my husband tells me that Spaniards have taken out the first three poll positions in tonight's motor GP. Which apparently is a good thing if you are Spanish and a motor bike fan.

To continue the distraction...
and they finished 1-2-3. My hubby crewed F1 and has a long involvement in bikes. One of the delights of the Camino for him was watching F1 and MotoGP with the wonderful lively parochial Spanish commentary. Watching last night's race we thought fondly of just how excited the commentators would be.
and all those little Marcs and Jorges dashing around in the city squares imitating their heroes.
This was a total and unexpected side to the Camino.

VNwalking · Nov 9, 2015

And to take the thread even further afield for a moment (sorry, mods, we will cease and desist eventually):
Wokabaut_Meri, I hope you are on your feet by now?? Sending best wishes.....

Wokabaut_Meri · Nov 9, 2015

Viranani said:
And to take the thread even further afield for a moment (sorry, mods, we will cease and desist eventually):
Wokabaut_Meri, I hope you are on your feet by now?? Sending best wishes.....

Begging the mods further indulgence ..
Oh YES!! Been a biped again for nearly 3 weeks and nearly free of the moon boot. I'll update my progress on original posting later this week.
Thanks all for good wishes.

VNwalking · Nov 9, 2015

Wokabaut_Meri said:
Oh YES!! Been a biped again for nearly 3 weeks and nearly free of the moon boot. I'll update my progress on original posting later this week.

Woo-hoooo! That's so great.
Doing a happy dance for you over here, and look forward to reading your news later.
(OK, mods...we will stop now and get back to talking about being contentious.)

wayfarer · Nov 9, 2015

Viranani said:
(OK, mods...we will stop now and get back to talking about being contentious.)

Ok, as long as its not contentious.

GreatDane · Nov 9, 2015

jmcarp said:
Sometimes just composing a response, but not actually sending it helps me to vent without actually making a fool of myself...

25 years ago I worked at a large US government agency to which the public would write the agency letters (you know those things on paper, with envelopes and stamps). A large number of the letters where very derogatory or uneducated. One of my duties was acting as a ghost (letter) writer for the Secretary of. I always vented in a first draft of a response to get it out of my system, destroyed it and then the second and final drafts I'd answer it politically correct.

Bradypus · Apr 30, 2016

GreatDane said:
I always vented in a first draft of a response to get it out of my system, destroyed it and then the second and final drafts I'd answer it politically correct.

I'd love to know if the first draft ever slipped through by mistake

GreatDane · Apr 30, 2016

Bradypus said:
I'd love to know if the first draft ever slipped through by mistake

Never!

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