Camino by Coach

[Frankybaby66]

Just finished walking the Camino Ingles/Camino Finisterre ( now languishing in the Seminario Menor in Santiago)
I witnessed something a few days ago that I simply have to share.
Walking with two friends in the middle of the Spanish countryside, we came upon a table with fruits/ coffee/ water etc for passing pilgrims for a donation. We stopped to get water, when a coach pulled up and 30 plus 'pilgrims' got off and came rushing to the table. 'Is there a stamp, is there a stamp?' was the war cry.
On discovering that there was no stamp, they jumped back on the coach which then sped away.
I know we all have to be tolerant, and concede that we all do Camino's differently. . .But really? Camino by coach??
'Strange days, indeed' as John Lennon once sang. . . .
Probably contravened a Forum rule by posting this, but had to share
Buen Camino (however you do them)

 

[Bradypus]

I know we all have to be tolerant, and concede that we all do Camino's differently. . .But really? Camino by coach??

Santiago is probably the only major Christian pilgrimage destination where any fuss is made about how pilgrims got there. I think the decision in the 1990s to introduce a 100km minimum walking distance for the Compostela was a mistake - mainly because it moves the essence of the definition of a pilgrimage from the destination to the journey. On my second Camino a member of a church group on their way to Santiago by bus told me very firmly that I was a tourist - not a pilgrim - because I travelled alone without the approval of the church and without a priest to say mass and lead devotions daily. Unlike her group. Her journey was a pilgrimage. So clearly mine was not.... I think we need to have a broader understanding of what pilgrimage means.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

On discovering that there was no stamp, they jumped back on the coach which then sped away.

I thought you were going to say that they grabbed all of the fruit and didn't leave a donation before jumping back on the bus.

 

[Walkalong]

I wonder if the Xunta De Galicia sees the 100km certificate / souvenir was a mistake.

In the shade of a café by the church in Portomarín we were entertained by a group, complete with trekking poles, gourds, clam shells, sweat bands, packs, hiking boots, for their 200 meter walk from their coach. Suum cuique.

 

[Bradypus]

I wonder if the Xunta De Galicia sees the 100km certificate / souvenir was a mistake.

I doubt it. It puts the minimum qualifying distance for a Compostela on any recognised route firmly within Galicia. The minimum distance rule was linked to the massive official promotion of the 1993 Holy Year which saw the first purpose-built chain of albergues. The Xunta saw the potential of the Caminos very early in the history of the Camino revival. Once you cross the borders into Galicia the Caminos are very much an official civic project. More so than in any other region. The Xunta approved a budget of over 100 million euros for promotion and development of Xacobeo 2027. Doesn't sound like buyer's remorse...

 

[TravellingMan22]

Just finished walking the Camino Ingles/Camino Finisterre ( now languishing in the Seminario Menor in Santiago)
I witnessed something a few days ago that I simply have to share.
Walking with two friends in the middle of the Spanish countryside, we came upon a table with fruits/ coffee/ water etc for passing pilgrims for a donation. We stopped to get water, when a coach pulled up and 30 plus 'pilgrims' got off and came rushing to the table. 'Is there a stamp, is there a stamp?' was the war cry.
On discovering that there was no stamp, they jumped back on the coach which then sped away.
I know we all have to be tolerant, and concede that we all do Camino's differently. . .But really? Camino by coach??
'Strange days, indeed' as John Lennon once sang. . . .
Probably contravened a Forum rule by posting this, but had to share
Buen Camino (however you do them)

I guess with the music reference I thought of ‘Times - they are a-changin’!

 

[trecile]

I think the decision in the 1990s to introduce a 100km minimum walking distance for the Compostela was a mistake - mainly because it moves the essence of the definition of a pilgrimage from the destination to the journey.

The fact that many people ask if they can receive a Compostela for walking any 100 km stretch is a testament this. The Compostela is not a participation certificate.

 

[Bradypus]

The fact that many people ask if they can receive a Compostela for walking any 100 km stretch is a testament this. The Compostela is not a participation certificate.

I am constantly surprised that so many of those who want one have never actually read what it says or paused to consider the meaning. I would not want my name printed on a document which I had never read.

 

[Grousedoctor]

I think @Bradypus hits the nail firmly on the head. The Camino, particularly in Galicia, is a business that brings a great deal of money into this area of Spain. Changes regarding overcrowding in the last 100km or tour groups will not change because it is not in Galicia’s economic interest to do so. You and I need to continue walking our Caminos for our own very personal reasons, be it religious or otherwise, which probably have nothing to do with a souvenir compostela at the end of the journey.

 

[Pafayac]

On my second Camino a member of a church group on their way to Santiago by bus told me very firmly that I was a tourist - not a pilgrim - because I travelled alone without the approval of the church and without a priest to say mass and lead devotions daily.

That's the magical of the Camino:
- We all walk toward something doubtful.
- Sometimes we even are not christians.
- We came from different origins, for different reasons...
However we are happy to be there together.

 

[Pafayac]

I would not want my name printed on a document which I had never read.

Mmmmh... What about insurance policies ?

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

Just finished walking the Camino Ingles/Camino Finisterre ( now languishing in the Seminario Menor in Santiago)
I witnessed something a few days ago that I simply have to share.
Walking with two friends in the middle of the Spanish countryside, we came upon a table with fruits/ coffee/ water etc for passing pilgrims for a donation. We stopped to get water, when a coach pulled up and 30 plus 'pilgrims' got off and came rushing to the table. 'Is there a stamp, is there a stamp?' was the war cry.
On discovering that there was no stamp, they jumped back on the coach which then sped away.
I know we all have to be tolerant, and concede that we all do Camino's differently. . .But really? Camino by coach??
'Strange days, indeed' as John Lennon once sang. . . .
Probably contravened a Forum rule by posting this, but had to share
Buen Camino (however you do them)

there have been pilgrimages by coach since there have been coaches. i suppose what's become somewhat of a new event is coach tourism wanting to sightsee and 'exprience' the trail. Interesting comment that warrants a more reflection on my part. for the record, i have nothing against coach tourism.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I did my first Caminos in 2020 at very short notice. I remember a friend mentioning it and got the details online and did the Portuguese and Frances one after the other. It was quiet as was during Covid.

I googled it and found out about the route, downloaded the apps for the route and off I went. I thought the objective was to walk the whole way, I had no idea about baggage transfer, group tours, taxis, buses and trains being a key part. It was a walk and I love walking esp. thru landscapes that are stunning and have a great infrastructure. I am not a believer and wasn’t aware of the pilgrimage aspect and whilst I am sure it may have referenced on online searches it didn’t really ‘cut thru’. It was all about the practical information.

I did pick up on the ‘two stamps in last 100km’ part and was keen to get a Compostella but I only really saw that as a certificate of completion. I didn’t realise there was an alternative product. I walked with mainly younger Europeans and the pilgrimage part didn’t really get any airtime.

It was only really finding this forum that made me realise the bigger picture, and may impact my next Camino.

I don’t see myself as a Pilgrim, as a non believer, and think even if someone gets a helicopter to SDC they are far more of a pilgrim that me!

 

[Frankybaby66]

Just finished walking the Camino Ingles/Camino Finisterre ( now languishing in the Seminario Menor in Santiago)
I witnessed something a few days ago that I simply have to share.
Walking with two friends in the middle of the Spanish countryside, we came upon a table with fruits/ coffee/ water etc for passing pilgrims for a donation. We stopped to get water, when a coach pulled up and 30 plus 'pilgrims' got off and came rushing to the table. 'Is there a stamp, is there a stamp?' was the war cry.
On discovering that there was no stamp, they jumped back on the coach which then sped away.
I know we all have to be tolerant, and concede that we all do Camino's differently. . .But really? Camino by coach??
'Strange days, indeed' as John Lennon once sang. . . .
Probably contravened a Forum rule by posting this, but had to share
Buen Camino (however

To paraphrase Stephen King's musings on being an author; there is a big difference between wanting to write a book, and wanting to say you have written a book.
I can see similarities with Camino's . . .

 

[Vacajoe]

Mmmmh... What about insurance policies ?

I signed my marriage certificate without any idea of what THAT entailed!!!!

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

The fact that many people ask if they can receive a Compostela for walking any 100 km stretch is a testament this. The Compostela is not a participation certificate.

Unfortunately for many it is.
Or still simply just another souvenir.

In it's current form it only has any true religious significance if you endow it with that.

 

[mikebet]

Although the Camino follows an ancient pilgrimage route there is certainly nothing wrong with thinking of it as just a scenic stroll through a nice part of the world. My wife and I did the Cotswold Way in UK a couple of months ago, and there isn't a whole lot of difference in the experience even if one is designated spiritual and other simply recreational. Taking pictures and collecting sellos is a way of memorializing the experience.

 

[Pafayac]

and there isn't a whole lot of difference in the experience even if one is designated spiritual and other simply recreational.

However, there are many traces of christian spirituality on the Camino. When walking on it, it seems difficult to forget it was a christian way, even if now the religion is often forgotten.

 

[trecile]

, I had no idea about baggage transfer, group tours, taxis, buses and trains being a key part.

Not a key part for me!

 

[TravellingMan22]

Not a key part for me!

Me neither. I have no interest… for me I have to walk the whole way or not at all with my gear. I only carry a couple of pairs of shorts and t shirts anyway! Oh and a pair of flip flops. No problem with what other folks do.

 

[David]

Personally I find the coacherino concept rather horrid .. (the deceitful type .. claiming sellos and so on).

but, the Compostela seems to say
"to all the faithful and pilgrims from all the lands of the Earth who, for devotion or by taking a vow, have come to the Church of the Apostle Santiago"

and if that is correct (I am SO often wrong so it may not be) then it is intent, not walking, that seems to be important in the Compostela - this surprised me as I thought that Santiago stood out alone as a Christian pilgrimage destination by the need to walk to it.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

That's the magical of the Camino:
- We all walk toward something doubtful

For me, I think of it as walking toward something delightful, even if there are a few bumps along the way.

 

[Frankybaby66]

Personally I find the coacherino concept rather horrid .. (the deceitful type .. claiming sellos and so on).

but, the Compostela seems to say
"to all the faithful and pilgrims from all the lands of the Earth who, for devotion or by taking a vow, have come to the Church of the Apostle Santiago"

and if that is correct (I am SO often wrong so it may not be) then it is intent, not walking, that seems to be important in the Compostela - this surprised me as I thought that Santiago stood out alone as a Christian pilgrimage destination by the need to walk to it.

I still think anyone who has been walking all day carrying a full pack would be slightly annoyed at what I witnessed.
Each to their own I suppose.

 

[trecile]

I still think anyone who has been walking all day carrying a full pack would be slightly annoyed at what I witnessed.
Each to their own I suppose.

You can think of it as them missing out on the wonderful experience that you are having. So what if they get a pretty piece of paper at the end. Does that really compare to your experience?

 

[Frankybaby66]

In a word, 'No'
( I knew that I could rely on you to cut through the philosophical replies Trecile! )

 

[wayfarer]

This is nothing new, saw it in 2012 and 2013, didn't like it at the time but I've lost some of my rough edges over time and now believe that a pilgrimage is a pilgrimage no matter how you achieve it.
I saw the same in India some years ago, hundreds of pilgrims going on a pilgrimage of a lifetime, some walking, some driving packed cars and bus's, they all seemed happy to be on the road and there didn't seem to be any judgement about how others got there, something to which we should all aspire.

 

[David]

I still think anyone who has been walking all day carrying a full pack would be slightly annoyed at what I witnessed.
Each to their own I suppose.

Oh, please don't mistake me, I would have felt the same as you.

 

[KariannNor]

Posts 1 and 2 bring me to an even higher level of disillusionment, which I didn't think was possible. Yes, I am totally conservative, probably because of my childhood learning, a pilgrimage is a walk. Feel free to judge me. For me, some of the magic is lost when there is no requirements. It is the same as the fact that you HAVE to complete the 42km to get the medal in marathon, you HAVE to have a pack with warm clothes to be allowed to start in a specific ski race. Then, it is something formal that is actually expected of you. If I can order the Compostela online, fly there and pick it up, then, what's the point? You can say that "everyone does it their own way", but if that is a way I can do it, no, then it's no longer attractive to me.

 

[wayfarer]

Posts 1 and 2 bring me to an even higher level of disillusionment, which I didn't think was possible. Yes, I am totally conservative, probably because of my childhood learning, a pilgrimage is a walk. Feel free to judge me. For me, some of the magic is lost when there is no requirements. It is the same as the fact that you HAVE to complete the 42km to get the medal in marathon, you HAVE to have a pack with warm clothes to be allowed to start in a specific ski race. Then, it is something formal that is actually expected of you. If I can order the Compostela online, fly there and pick it up, then, what's the point? You can say that "everyone does it their own way", but if that is a way I can do it, no, then it's no longer attractive to me.

"A pilgrimage is a journey to a holy place, which can lead to a personal transformation, after which the pilgrim returns to their daily life."
Nowhere in there does it say that you HAVE to walk.
Do your own pilgrimage if you really want to and don't worry about how others do it is my advice.

 

[Bradypus]

Then, it is something formal that is actually expected of you.

There are specific rules for receiving a Compostela. Personally I disagree with those rules but it is within the rights of the cathedral to decide them. I think anyone who claims a Compostela should be honest and abide by those rules. I no longer ask for one. But there is a difference between making a pilgrimage and qualifying for a Compostela. Pilgrimage is a much wider concept.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

It occurs to me that, even though I have several times encountered coach groups along the Way, I've never seen any advertising for a coach tour..... I'd be very interested in seeing an advertisement for a coach tour, and what claims are made therein....

 

[dougfitz]

Personally I find the coacherino concept rather horrid .. (the deceitful type .. claiming sellos and so on).

but, the Compostela seems to say
"to all the faithful and pilgrims from all the lands of the Earth who, for devotion or by taking a vow, have come to the Church of the Apostle Santiago"

and if that is correct (I am SO often wrong so it may not be) then it is intent, not walking, that seems to be important in the Compostela - this surprised me as I thought that Santiago stood out alone as a Christian pilgrimage destination by the need to walk to it.

Of course, selectively quoting the text and not including this:

The Chapter of this Holy Apostolic and Metropolitan Cathedral of Compostela, ... recognises before all who observe this document that: …………… has devotedly visited this most sacred temple having done the last hundred kilometers on foot or on horseback or the last two hundred by bicycle with Christian sentiment (pietatis causa).

puts rather a different slant on any analysis about the role of walking or riding as one part of the criteria for awarding the Compostela. Yes, intent is important, but so is the physical endeavour of walking or riding.

 

[David]

Of course, selectively quoting the text and not including this:

puts rather a different slant on any analysis about the role of walking or riding as one part of the criteria for awarding the Compostela. Yes, intent is important, but so is the physical endeavour of walking or riding.

I did say that I might be wrong but, I used this as the translation from online, AI.

" When you arrive in Santiago de Compostela after walking the Camino de Santiago, you go directly to the Pilgrim’s Office to request your Compostela, which is the certificate that has been awarded to pilgrims for the past 1000 years. It is written in Latin and attests to the fact that you have successfully completed a religious pilgrimage. Here is the text in English:

LA COMPOSTELA
The Chapter of this Holy Apostolic and Metropolitan Church of Compostela, custodian of the seal of the altar of the Blessed Apostle Saint James, offers authenticating letters of accomplishment to all the faithful and pilgrims from all the lands of the Earth who, for devotion or by taking a vow, have come to the Church of the Apostle Santiago, Patron and Tutelary Saint of our Country Spain, and makes known to each and all who may inspect this letter that [NAME in Latin] has devoutly visited this most holy temple for reasons of piety. In recognition of this, I confer this letter, with the seal of the same Holy Church. Dated in Compostela on the day [day] of the month [month] in the Year of Our Lord [year].

The rules of receiving it in the pilgrim office are as we know .. but, willing to be corrected - has anyone translated the actual Latin compostela that we receive as the translation seems to match my Compostela.

This is the first one I received and does not mention kilometres, nor walking, nor horses, nor cycles.
Has it been updated over the years?

 

[dougfitz]

I did say that I might be wrong but, I used this as the translation from online, AI.

" When you arrive in Santiago de Compostela after walking the Camino de Santiago, you go directly to the Pilgrim’s Office to request your Compostela, which is the certificate that has been awarded to pilgrims for the past 1000 years. It is written in Latin and attests to the fact that you have successfully completed a religious pilgrimage. Here is the text in English:



The rules of receiving it in the pilgrim office are as we know .. but, willing to be corrected - has anyone translated the actual Latin compostela that we receive as the translation seems to match my Compostela.

This is the first one I received and does not mention kilometres, nor walking, nor horses, nor cycles.
Has it been updated over the years?

The Pilgrim Office website offers an English translation of the current text here: https://oficinadelperegrino.com/en/pilgrimage/the-compostela/.

ps. AI - very artificial, not always intelligent - should be VANAI

edit: David, my 2010 Compostela is similar to the one you have shown. By 2016, the text includes a reference to the distance walked or ridden.

 

[Bradypus]

This is the first one I received and does not mention kilometres, nor walking, nor horses, nor cycles.
Has it been updated over the years?

Same as my first and second ones. The new version in use since about 2014 has a different design and the additional text about distances, bikes and horses.

 

[David]

The Pilgrim Office website offers an English translation of the current text here: https://oficinadelperegrino.com/en/pilgrimage/the-compostela/.

Ah, there the confusion, all is changed since I received mine - so, hang on! I could just have taken a train to Santiago to get my Compostela? Then why did they look at my credential and ask why I did the Camino? Confused.
The new one still has "with Christian sentiment (pietatis causa)" though!

 

[Bradypus]

Ah, there the confusion, all is changed since I received mine - so, hang on! I could just have taken a train to Santiago to get my Compostela? Then why did they look at my credential and ask why I did the Camino? Confused.

No. They introduced the 100km rule about 20 years before they got around to changing the Compostela text. These things obviously can't be rushed!

 

[C clearly]

I still think anyone who has been walking all day carrying a full pack would be slightly annoyed at what I witnessed.
Each to their own I suppose.

I don't think I would feel annoyed. I might feel a bit "superior" for a moment until I shamefully abandon my ego and consider the matter more logically and generously.

Why would I feel annoyed with someone else? Nobody forced me to fill my backpack and carry it across Spain.

 

[Robo]

I have witnessed.........on my first Camino

A 60 seater coach used by an American church group.
The coach 'Captain' was an 80 year old Nun who would leap frog ahead of her flock.......
The coach would be waiting for them with refreshments along the way.
I made a point to say Hello to these Pilgrims and hear their story.
They were wonderful, excited, full of joy and having the journey of a lifetime.
It was such a pleasure to have their company for a while.

Also,
Minibuses parked up with Pilgrim refreshments awaiting their groups.
'Guides' dashing into the cafes with a bundle of Credencials to be stamped.
The Pilgrims 'selectively' picking which parts to walk each day, if at all.

Who are we to judge............

In my somewhat limited exposure to and experience to the Camino, I have learned that:

The motives of a Pilgrim walking the Camino are usually clearly apparent.
It's in their heart and visible in their eyes...........

Not that it should be any concern of ours.......

 

[JillGat]

Santiago is probably the only major Christian pilgrimage destination where any fuss is made about how pilgrims got there. I think the decision in the 1990s to introduce a 100km minimum walking distance for the Compostela was a mistake - mainly because it moves the essence of the definition of a pilgrimage from the destination to the journey. On my second Camino a member of a church group on their way to Santiago by bus told me very firmly that I was a tourist - not a pilgrim - because I travelled alone without the approval of the church and without a priest to say mass and lead devotions daily. Unlike her group. Her journey was a pilgrimage. So clearly mine was not.... I think we need to have a broader understanding of what pilgrimage means.

I get what you're saying. I'm sorry to see this kind of thing. But re. this: [[it moves the essence of the definition of a pilgrimage from the destination to the journey.]] It is always the journey for me! And I'm generally sorry to get to the end.

 

[Pafayac]

Yes, I am totally conservative, probably because of my childhood learning, a pilgrimage is a walk.

No, it does not belong to the definition of a pilgrimage. Lourdes is often reached by train, Mecca by plane: could you deny them the name of "pilgrimage" ?
Like @wayfarer reported: "A pilgrimage is a journey to a holy place", nothing is said about the means you use to reach it.
However, regarding Santiago, I consider as you that it should preferably been walked (at least by those who can do it). Not because like this the Compostela is more deserved, nor because it has more price (frankly, who can think it is difficult or painful to walk on this way ?). No, just because it is thought to be done by walkers: all the infrastructure is designed for pilgrims walking, and they are full yet.
Therefore I am angry when I read people who are looking for sharing a taxi from Burgos to Hornillos, despite the fact that almost no beds remain there...
Another misunderstanding from me is the expression "qualifying for a Compostela". IMHO, you can qualify for a sport competition, a race final, but not for such a paper... what is the meaning of the Compostela ? According to me you know if you have walked enough, in a spiritual mood, to be happy with yourself when arriving at Santiago. Can a paper help you to be proud of yourself ?
That is this confusion between spiritual pilgrimage and sport competition which leads to me thinking that the Compostela should no more exist.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Maybe people have had it wrong all the time! Increasingly it’s clear to me that a pilgrimage is a destination, not a journey and the mode of ‘movement’ is irrelevant. I have never attached the term ‘pilgrim’ to myself as it seems ridiculous as I am neither religious or spiritual, and walking from SJDPP to SDC doesn’t change that. Maybe the term is far too easily attributed by the individual to themselves. I have always found it quite surprising how many folks apply the word pilgrim to themselves as only a handful seem to really be deep into it. It seems that many feel that walking to SDC makes them a pilgrim! I don’t know much about it but that seems a pretty low bar to qualify as something that seems quite a big deal! The reaction to folks on the coach has been quite telling and I have never really thought about this subject before.

A person going to SDC by bus will always be far more ‘committed’ then me who would alway walk but for other reasons.

 

[trecile]

I have never attached the term ‘pilgrim’ to myself as it seems ridiculous as I am neither religious or spiritual, and walking from SJDPP to SDC doesn’t change that.

I consider myself to be s pilgrim according to the first definition:

 

[Pafayac]

It seems that many feel that walking to SDC makes them a pilgrim! I don’t know much about it but that seems a pretty low bar to qualify as something that seems quite a big deal!

No, being a pilgrim is not a big deal: it just means that you try to progress towards a goal. It is not an achievement.
All christian believers (and perhaps jewish people, too ?) should consider themselves as "pilgrims on earth". Chistian texts tell about "our pilgrimage on earth".

 

[TravellingMan22]

I consider myself to be s pilgrim according to the first definition:

View attachment 171944

Fair enough! That makes me one too (who knew!) given I am a full time nomad, with no fixed abode, and have been for four years, but it feels quite an odd definition to me! There are a lot of pilgrims about with that definition.

 

[David]

Re the term pilgrim .. this black and white clip was filmed at an old American (Texans I think) refugio near Los Arcos .. long closed now.

 

[TravellingMan22]

No, being a pilgrim is not a big deal: it just means that you try to progress towards a goal. It is not an achievement.
All christian believers (and perhaps jewish people, too ?) should consider themselves as "pilgrims on earth". Chistian texts tell about "our pilgrimage on earth".

Sure maybe I have been too narrow in my definition… from wiki…

A modern phenomenon is the cultural pilgrimage which, while involving a personal journey, is secular in nature. Destinations for such pilgrims can include historic sites of national or cultural importance, and can be defined as places "of cultural significance: an artist's home, the location of a pivotal event or an iconic destination".[10] An example might be a devotee of the Beatles visiting Liverpool in England. Destinations for cultural pilgrims include Auschwitz concentration camp, Gettysburg Battlefield or the Ernest Hemingway House.[10]

I have visited Auschwitz a few times, and other camps, for personal reasons, and yes the word pilgrimage seems appropriate.

 

[David]

It could be fairly said that the 80th anniversary D Day landings ceremony yesterday was a pilgrimage for the remaining survivors who went there.

How time is strange .. 80 years back to D Day and only 80 years back from then to the American civil war! Do Americans visit, pilgrimage, to those war sites still?

 

[TravellingMan22]

It could be fairly said that the 80th anniversary D Day landings ceremony yesterday was a pilgrimage for the remaining survivors who went there.

Yes very good point!!! I guess it has a much broader use than the one I was focusing on. The media use the word quite liberally (sport fans making a pilgrimage to seen their team!l, The Beatles example, etc. just labels / language I guess … doesn’t matter for the most part.

Maybe we are all pilgrims in one way or another seeking our path!

 

[wayfarer]

It could be fairly said that the 80th anniversary D Day landings ceremony yesterday was a pilgrimage for the remaining survivors who went there.

A pilgrimage is defined as a journey to a Holy place. There was nothing Holy about D Day or the beaches where it happened.
It was more a journey of remembrance.

 

[Paladina]

I don’t see myself as a Pilgrim, as a non believer, and think even if someone gets a helicopter to SDC they are far more of a pilgrim that me!

Now there’s a thought: maybe I could persuade my helicopter pilot son to fly me to SdC for a pilgrimage-lite!

 

[TravellingMan22]

Now there’s a thought: maybe I could persuade my helicopter pilot son to fly me to SdC for a pilgrimage-lite!

Land right in the square. Can’t say I have seen a rule prohibiting it!!

 

[Kathor1]

Are you having yet another battle of the definitions of pilgrim and pilgrimage? Does it ever get old?

I think that Camino peregrin@s view certain categories of groups as invaders of their space. They ought not to be there. They ought to be out of sight. They don’t get it or nobody told them how to get it. That’s the first thing. Walking with a backpack is something so very special.

And then the sellos. They should not get sellos. Sellos are only for Camino peregrin@s on foot, bike or horseback. And they certainly must not get a Compostela because one knows simply by looking at them that they will get a Compostela in the end with all the sellos that they collected. Although they don’t have a right to a Compostela and they would know that if they could only read Latin.

There.

Everything has been said that there is to say and the thread can be closed or at least allowed to scroll off into the sunset.

 

[Corned Beef]

I think @Bradypus hits the nail firmly on the head. The Camino, particularly in Galicia, is a business that brings a great deal of money into this area of Spain. Changes regarding overcrowding in the last 100km or tour groups will not change because it is not in Galicia’s economic interest to do so. You and I need to continue walking our Caminos for our own very personal reasons, be it religious or otherwise, which probably have nothing to do with a souvenir compostela at the end of the journey.

Pilgrimages have always been a source of economic benefit to the extent that some churches/monasteries were raided for their artefacts. In the 9thC there were even professional relic hunters who supplied relics to the newer abbeys so they had a pilgrim pull. The sack of Constantinople in 1204 flooded the market with relics of doubtful provenance.

If you are looking for an authentic pilgrimage you may be disappointed. Best to travel (by whatever means) for your own reasons, accepting that it will be genuine for you.

 

[Bradypus]

In the 9thC there were even professional relic hunters who supplied relics to the newer abbeys so they had a pilgrim pull.

The legend of how Venice acquired St Mark to replace the far less significant Theodore as their principal patron saint is bizarre but a great example of the value of relics in the period.

The Relics of St Mark

A descriptive text about St Mark and objects in The Fitzwilliam Museum

fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk

 

[Silvermomma]

It occurs to me that, even though I have several times encountered coach groups along the Way, I've never seen any advertising for a coach tour..... I'd be very interested in seeing an advertisement for a coach tour, and what claims are made therein....

When I walked the CF I was determined to be open and friendly to all the new folks jumping aboard in Sarria. I greeted a guy whose shoes and tiny backpack were all shiny and new, and asked if he had just started. "Oh no," he replied. "I started in SJPP." I remarked on how clean he had kept his gear. He proudly announced that he was doing "The Best of the Camino," where they walk a bit, jump on a bus, and walk a bit more. All the "best parts"! Here's the advertising for it:

Best of the Camino | Macs Adventure

15 Days & 14 Nights Best of the Camino walking holidays in Spain. The highlights of the Camino Frances in two weeks.

www.macsadventure.com

 

[Silvermomma]

I have witnessed.........on my first Camino


'Guides' dashing into the cafes with a bundle of Credencials to be stamped.

Oh, kind of horrifying. One thing I particularly enjoy is the brief interaction of someone stamping and dating my credential. This year on the Norte I found a lot of places just gesturing to where the stamp was, for me to do it myself. I missed that little moment of connection.

 

[Silvermomma]

A pilgrimage is defined as a journey to a Holy place. There was nothing Holy about D Day or the beaches where it happened.
It was more a journey of remembrance.

 

[TravellingMan22]

When I walked the CF I was determined to be open and friendly to all the new folks jumping aboard in Sarria. I greeted a guy whose shoes and tiny backpack were all shiny and new, and asked if he had just started. "Oh no," he replied. "I started in SJPP." I remarked on how clean he had kept his gear. He proudly announced that he was doing "The Best of the Camino," where they walk a bit, jump on a bus, and walk a bit more. All the "best parts"! Here's the advertising for it:

Best of the Camino | Macs Adventure

15 Days & 14 Nights Best of the Camino walking holidays in Spain. The highlights of the Camino Frances in two weeks.

www.macsadventure.com

I think I might buy a big old London double decker bus and start a Camino ‘hop on, hop off’ driving form SJDPP to SDC with 33 stops!

 

[Bradypus]

He proudly announced that he was doing "The Best of the Camino," where they walk a bit, jump on a bus, and walk a bit more. All the "best parts"!

There is a very upmarket version available. Costs about 19,000 euro per person for a twin room but you can have a single room for an extra 3,000 euro.

The Crux of the Camino | Captain's Choice

Follow the footsteps of pilgrims past on the Camino de Santiago, from Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port to Santiago de Compostela.

www.captainschoice.co.uk

 

[Silvermomma]

Land right in the square. Can’t say I have seen a rule prohibiting it!!

How many kilometers will they decide you need to fly to "qualify" for the diploma?

 

[Silvermomma]

There is a very upmarket version available. Costs about 19,000 euro per person for a twin room but you can have a single room for an extra 3,000 euro.

The Crux of the Camino | Captain's Choice

Follow the footsteps of pilgrims past on the Camino de Santiago, from Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port to Santiago de Compostela.

www.captainschoice.co.uk

O.M.G.!!! the price! Well, the bus is fully stocked with food and drink.
They should (one person at a time) spend one night in an albergue, for a truly "unique" experience LOL. Extra 1K euro donativo.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

It could be fairly said that the 80th anniversary D Day landings ceremony yesterday was a pilgrimage for the remaining survivors who went there

How do I say this politely, about commemorations for the fallen on the battlefield, the murdered in the camps, etc. etc. there is nothing Holy about it. So how on earth can you call this a Pilgrimage?

 

[TravellingMan22]

How many kilometers will they decide you need to fly to "qualify" for the diploma?

Well @Paladina is from the west coast of Ireland so assuming her son can land in her back garden, it’s what 1500km or so (?) so should be fine with a hefty threshold!!

 

[VNwalking]

If I can order the Compostela online, fly there and pick it up, then, what's the point? You can say that "everyone does it their own way", but if that is a way I can do it, no, then it's no longer attractive to me.

Not to equate pilgrimage with hardship.
It's a common confusion but they're two different things. Sometimes they go together, sometimes not.

19,000 euro per person for a twin room but you can have a single room for an extra 3,000 euro.

I can think of so many  beneficial ways to use 22,000€. (OK...I'll get off the soapbox now and let myself out.)

Oh, wait, adding this before I go.

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www.captainschoice.com.au

The Portugues Coatal in 19 days from Lisboa, for 41,000 AuD for a private room.
This is why we talk about pilgrims versus tourists. Reading the description of what's in store for the people who undertake this journey makes it clear that the Michelin-starred restaurants and posh wine tastings are as much of a draw as anything else.(An added perk is the tour guide and private doctor.)
And yes, they get a Compostela.

 

[lalaone]

It could be fairly said that the 80th anniversary D Day landings ceremony yesterday was a pilgrimage for the remaining survivors who went there.

How time is strange .. 80 years back to D Day and only 80 years back from then to the American civil war! Do Americans visit, pilgrimage, to those war sites still?

Yes, both. Most definitely.

(There is even a street sign in Gettsyburg, Pennsylvania with how many miles to Ste-Mere-Eglise in Normandy, an official "sister city" as both witnessed such bloodshed 80 years apart.)

I understand why the word “holy” might seem confusing to some. I’ve seen Gettysburg called “hallowed.” I could also see the D-Day beaches called hallowed ground. The meaning is close to holy, but not quite the same. It's definitely more old-fashioned. Not often used in common speech, mainly the Lord’s Prayer (hallowed be Thy name) and places like battlefields. I personally did not experience these as pilgrimages, but others do. Here’s an example re: American Civil War sites: “This Journey Through Hallowed Ground is a wonderful pilgrimage to sacrosanct Civil War sites, pristine national sanctuaries and land considered by many to be sacred. Maryland’s “hallowed ground” falls in the middle of a scenic and historically significant route that stretches from Gettysburg, Pa. to Monticello, VA.”

 

[Bradypus]

I can think of so many  beneficial ways to use 22,000€. (OK...I'll get off the soapbox now and let myself out

It does seem a tad extravagant. Shortly before Covid shut down international travel I made a trip from the UK to Japan and Australia. I walked a couple of the Kumano Kodo routes plus a couple of days of unfinished business on the Shikoku 88 temple circuit. Then a few days of sightseeing by train before flying to Oz. A lot of travel there on a Greyhound bus pass. Snorkelling on the Great Barrier Reef, 4x4 tours into Kakadu and Uluru, a week of solo bushwalking and camping, a couple of very pleasant days walking and tasting around the Barossa and McLaren Vale vineyards near Adelaide. Then back to the UK. Including the airfares my total spend for the trip was roughly the amount that tour charges just for a single room supplement.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

We can google the definitions of what is a pilgrim and what is a pilgrimage all we want, but those online definitions vary as much as our own opinions on the two words. Apparently it is not "one size fits all", and we each choose for ourselves which one seems to be "correct" in our own eyes.
That said, although it is often said it's the journey, not the destination, my opinion is that the original purpose of the Roman Catholic Church for those arriving in Santiago was definitely the destination for spiritual reasons according to church doctrine, arriving at the tomb of St. James for remission of sins.

Edited to clarify. It is mostly the journey that applies to myself. Although a Christian I do not walk for religious reasons, but have great respect for those who do, no matter their religion or those who are searching for answers, whatever that may be.

 

[David]

I think I might buy a big old London double decker bus and start a Camino ‘hop on, hop off’ driving form SJDPP to SDC with 33 stops!

Something like this?? Seems like the Camino is heading that way.

 

[ELHS220]

I thought you were going to say that they grabbed all of the fruit and didn't leave a donation before jumping back on the bus.

That is EXACTLY what I thought was coming as well.

 

[lt56ny]

I did say that I might be wrong but, I used this as the translation from online, AI.

" When you arrive in Santiago de Compostela after walking the Camino de Santiago, you go directly to the Pilgrim’s Office to request your Compostela, which is the certificate that has been awarded to pilgrims for the past 1000 years. It is written in Latin and attests to the fact that you have successfully completed a religious pilgrimage. Here is the text in English:



The rules of receiving it in the pilgrim office are as we know .. but, willing to be corrected - has anyone translated the actual Latin compostela that we receive as the translation seems to match my Compostela.

This is the first one I received and does not mention kilometres, nor walking, nor horses, nor cycles.
Has it been updated over the years?

View attachment 171934

This is my first compostela also. It is also the compostela that means alot to me. I have given most of my other ones away to friends and family.

Personally I find the coacherino concept rather horrid .. (the deceitful type .. claiming sellos and so on).

I do agree with your feelings about coacherinos. It is obvious that we seem to be nitpicking this topic to death. At least every time I read topics like this I definitely begin the cycle of nitpicking. I used to judge how people walked now I say the hell with it and I don't want to waste my time with this. I could get into a whole philosophical discussion about how people get compostelas etc. But it is too tiring and it is usually very obvious, new member or old member, or when walking who has love and a calling for camino. That is who I choose to associate with when walking. Buen Camino and I watched your documentary again and still love it!

 

[lt56ny]

When I walked the CF I was determined to be open and friendly to all the new folks jumping aboard in Sarria. I greeted a guy whose shoes and tiny backpack were all shiny and new, and asked if he had just started. "Oh no," he replied. "I started in SJPP." I remarked on how clean he had kept his gear. He proudly announced that he was doing "The Best of the Camino," where they walk a bit, jump on a bus, and walk a bit more. All the "best parts"! Here's the advertising for it:

Best of the Camino | Macs Adventure

15 Days & 14 Nights Best of the Camino walking holidays in Spain. The highlights of the Camino Frances in two weeks.

www.macsadventure.com

There is a very upmarket version available. Costs about 19,000 euro per person for a twin room but you can have a single room for an extra 3,000 euro.

The Crux of the Camino | Captain's Choice

Follow the footsteps of pilgrims past on the Camino de Santiago, from Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port to Santiago de Compostela.

www.captainschoice.co.uk

I could care less how deserving a person is in receiving a Compostela or how they do it, But if the prices mentioned are correct than just on a moral level it shows the corruption of wealth in the world today.

I can think of so many  beneficial ways to use 22,000€. (OK...I'll get off the soapbox now and let myself out.)

Maybe we should get on our soapboxes. Do you have to have a 200 Euro bottle of wine every night?

 

[Robo]

When I walked the CF I was determined to be open and friendly to all the new folks jumping aboard in Sarria. I greeted a guy whose shoes and tiny backpack were all shiny and new, and asked if he had just started. "Oh no," he replied. "I started in SJPP." I remarked on how clean he had kept his gear. He proudly announced that he was doing "The Best of the Camino," where they walk a bit, jump on a bus, and walk a bit more. All the "best parts"! Here's the advertising for it:

Best of the Camino | Macs Adventure

15 Days & 14 Nights Best of the Camino walking holidays in Spain. The highlights of the Camino Frances in two weeks.

www.macsadventure.com

Sounds fair. A bit like running the best bits of the London Marathon ?

 

[trecile]

How do I say this politely, about commemorations for the fallen on the battlefield, the murdered in the camps, etc. etc. there is nothing Holy about it. So how on earth can you call this a Pilgrimage?

How can you say that there is nothing holy about honoring the sacrifice made by these people, but visiting bones that may or may not be those of St James is?

 

[wayfarer]

I wonder did the pilgrims of old bitch about the priests and bishops who went on pilgrimage by carriage and stayed with other clergy on the way, did they say that they weren't real pilgrims, just carriagearinos.

 

[wayfarer]

@trecile, if you are online please close this thread, it's gone so far off topic I've forgotten what the topic was and I've run out of popcorn.
Think of the children.

 

[Paladina]

Well @Paladina is from the west coast of Ireland so assuming her son can land in her back garden, it’s what 1500km or so (?) so should be fine with a hefty threshold!!

When I first moved here and tried to register with a local GP, the response was: 'Well, don't be expecting any home visits -- you'd need a *****ing helicopter to get up there!' I'm not sure, however, that the owners of the helicopters my son flies would be too happy about an improvised helipad in my forest garden. Nor would the scarpering pilgrims in the Plaza del Obradoiro, especially the coachloads of pseudo-pilgrims in search of the authentic Camino experience.

 

[trecile]

This thread seems to have run its course, and is going off topic, so it is now closed