Americans Needing a Visa? Updates or How-To's Please

[Shawnae]

Hey there,

I'm planning on landing in Europe in mid-May, and I'm greatly concerned with all the news and vote that took place over eliminating the visa-free travel to the Schengen zone for Americans. I'm worried about being denied entry or having to sort out visa stuff while on the trail, as some news stories I read said the prospective enforcing begins within 2 months? (May?) I'm not leaving the Schengen zone until July 1st, as I planned on traveling afterwards. I was going to just buckle down and jump through the hoops to get a visa, but the visitor visa requires proof of reservations? Obviously this isn't realistic for a Camino walker, as life on the trail is unpredictable, and sometimes we simply finish (or don't finish) on unanticipated dates. Please help! I'm starting to lose sleep over this worry and stress. Thank you.

 

[SYates]

Ok, take a deep breath! Like they say in my country of origin 'nothing is eaten as hot as it was cooked'. That 'vote' isn't law yet - and, considering the time EU laws take to take will not be for a long time. See, and keep an eye on, http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Embaja...araExtranjeros/Pages/RequisitosDeEntrada.aspx You will get your visa on entering the Schengen zone, just as it was the last years or so, and as long as you don't overstay your 90 days in a 180 days allowance - you will be fine!

Buen Camino, SY

 

[november_moon]

The visa requirements haven't gone into effect yet, so no one knows what they will look like. IF (big IF) they go into effect in 2 months, the Schengen counties will have to agree upon and develop some rules between now and then. In the mean time, I wouldn't worry about it - just keep your eyes on the news so that if it does move forward, you know what to do. Chances are, if the requirement for visas for Americans does become a reality, it will be something along the lines of a Visa on Arrival or an online form you fill out before you travel.

 

[Tincatinker]

@Shawnae there have been a couple of recent discussions on this topic, try searching 'Schengen Visa". As SY and @november_moon have commented nothing is yet in place nor is likely to be anytime soon. Nothing happens very quickly in the EC, for a start there is no President who can issue an executive order, all 28 (27) states have to agree and then the parliament has to ratify and then the Commission has to get a couple of newspaper headlines and then, suddenly, nothing happens for a bit longer while national parliaments 'enact'.

As for the basic legislation that covers visitors from the US coming to Europe and the Schengen Zone (not the same place but neighbours) that is all covered in previous threads and in the links provided.

If required my tribe have been disregarding borders for a couple of thousand years at least and will get you home

 

[alaskadiver]

Hey there,

I'm planning on landing in Europe in mid-May, and I'm greatly concerned with all the news and vote that took place over eliminating the visa-free travel to the Schengen zone for Americans. I'm worried about being denied entry or having to sort out visa stuff while on the trail, as some news stories I read said the prospective enforcing begins within 2 months? (May?) I'm not leaving the Schengen zone until July 1st, as I planned on traveling afterwards. I was going to just buckle down and jump through the hoops to get a visa, but the visitor visa requires proof of reservations? Obviously this isn't realistic for a Camino walker, as life on the trail is unpredictable, and sometimes we simply finish (or don't finish) on unanticipated dates. Please help! I'm starting to lose sleep over this worry and stress. Thank you.

You've greatly misunderstood what is going on. It was a non-binding resolution that does not have the power of law. They may vote on it later in the year. Nothing is taking effect in May. There are no "hoops" to jump through to get any visa. Relax. IF they do vote to institute a visa requirement there will be a time frame to do so and it won't be something that happens overnight. Don't confuse what happened in the US last month with what the rest of the world does.

 

[Shawnae]

Thank you to everyone who rapidly responded to my question and added clarity to the situation. You guys are wonderful and I'm glad to have this sorted out as of now.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

If a pre-arranged visa is required for Americans is voted on it will take awhile before the vote happens and then a bit longer for it to be implemented. Since the Schengen countries don't want to burden themselves any more than needed (since it will be enough of a pain handling all the visa applications) it is likely that they will implement the plan by saying to vistors "You're already in with a visa on arrival so you've got your visa already. Enjoy yourself but don't overstay your welcome."

By the way, the cause of the problem is that the Schengen countries have visa on arrivals for US citizens but the US requires citizens from some of the Schengen countries to apply for visas to the US in advance. By some rule or another that "forces" the action being taken although it had been long ignored. Another BTW is that Polish citizens are among those who have to apply for American visas even though Poland has an extremely liberal visa policy for Americans above and beyond the Schengen rules (essentially, as an American, you can stay in Poland for life as a tourist without a visa as long as you leave every 90 days for one full day before coming back.) Seems a bit unfair.

 

[Shawnae]

This is really crazy about Poland. Does going to another EU country count as leaving for the one whole day?

 

[xin loi]

Poland rule is not unusual in other parts of the world, like Latin America. Gringos living in Guatemala must go to Mexico , Honduras, or El Salvador every few months. Don't think Belize counts as if you look on the OFFICIAL map of Guatemala, Belize is still part of their country. I assuming that sooner or later, European countries will do something like Bolivia--Charge Americans $160 for a visa at every border crossing.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

While below I'm discussing a special case of a US/Poland treaty I suppose that problems like this could arise also with Aussies and Kiwis and others spending extra time in countries that they can spend extra time in so it may be worth reading no matter what your non-EU nationality is.

This is really crazy about Poland. Does going to another EU country count as leaving for the one whole day?

I think not unless it is a EU but non-Schengen country like the UK or Ireland. Maybe you can get away with Denmark which also has a special treaty with the US. But even if technically and legally allowed you would have to deal with border control agents that may not know the rules. Let's say you spent 80 days in the Schengen zone and then another 90 in Poland and you left to spend a full day in Germany. If you get in an accident and have to show your passport they see that you have been in the Schengen zone for 170 days straight. Have fun talking your way out of this problem. I would advise exiting for a day in one of the non-Schengen countries on Poland's east border.

I have not researched this problem about spending extra time within the Schengen zone in special treaty countries as it looks really complicated and it isn't going to affect me. Just use my thoughts and speculations, not as answers, but as sources for further questions to be asked of a professional advisor.

One piece of advice though. Gather proof (like hotel receipts) that you stayed every day beyond your 90 day Schengen visa in your special country (let's continue to say Poland in our discussion here.) Otherwise it could be said that you went over the border to Poland for a few days and then spent another 80 in the Schengen zone before going back to Poland (easy to do since there is no border control.) It is easier to show proof of compliance than trying to talk someone into believing that you were compliant.

 

[t2andreo]

Rick: Your solution applies to the US Visa Waiver Program, but not in the EU / Schengen zone. Most EU citizens can come to the US and stay sans visa for up to 90 calendar days. So, if, on the 89th day they go to Canada, the Bahamas Islands, Mexico, etc., and return, say two days later, the 90-day clock starts running again from Day 1.

However, and this is where the problem emerges, the EU / Schengen Area has a DIFFERENT approach. A non-EU / Schengen national is permitted to remain in any (in the aggregate) EU country for UP TO 90 CALENDAR DAYS in a 180 CALENDAR DAY PERIOD.

The 180-day period is dynamic, and slides forward. It commences on the date of first arrival in the EU zone. It does not matter how many times you go in and out of various EU countries during that 180 calendar day period. It all counts towards the 90 day total.

So, for example, if you come to the EU for 3o days, then leave for 30 days, then return for 30 days, etc. the 180-day time frame slides forward. This is the maximum pattern you could get away with and still be in technical compliance with the EU rule.

But, it does not matter how you distribute your days in the EU, as long as they do not total more than 90 in the most recent 180-day period. However, I surmise that, eventually, someone is going to catch on to the pattern. If that happens, you likely will be refused entry and told not to return without a formal, embassy/consulate - issued visitors visa.

So, staying in, say Spain for 70 days, then going to Portugal for 10 days, then back to Spain for another 10 days, you have clocked the maximum 90 calendar days within the EU zone. Even if you "break" the EU stay pattern by going to a non-EU country, like Switzerland, the 90-day clock just picks up where you left off. In this example, you would not be let in, unless someone is asleep at the switch.

THAT is the essential difference between the US and EU visa-free travel systems. The US system resets to day 1 each time you apply for admission to the US from a foreign location.

So, like similar systems around the world, a foreigner traveling under the US Visas Waiver Program rules can make a "visa-run" to an adjacent country then come back a few days later. I will tell you from professional experience that the computers track this pattern. You may get away with it once, or even twice. But eventually, you will be interviewed in private (not desirable) and be told you must have a proper, embassy-issued nonimmigrant visa the next time you seek admission. It is likely that the officers will refuse you admission to the US.

The EU / Schengen system establishes a 180-contiguous calendar day time frame and only permits you to remain in the EU for a total of 90 days, no matter how you accumulate them.

I hope this helps.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Rick: Your solution applies to the US Visa Waiver Program, but not in the EU / Schengen zone. Most EU citizens can come to the US and stay sans visa for up to 90 calendar days. So, if, on the 89th day they go to Canada, the Bahamas Islands, Mexico, etc., and return, say two days later, the 90-day clock starts running again from Day 1.

However, and this is where the problem emerges, the EU / Schengen Area has a DIFFERENT approach. A non-EU / Schengen national is permitted to remain in any (in the aggregate) EU country for UP TO 90 CALENDAR DAYS in a 180 CALENDAR DAY PERIOD.

The 180-day period is dynamic, and slides forward. It commences on the date of first arrival in the EU zone. It does not matter how many times you go in and out of various EU countries during that 180 calendar day period. It all counts towards the 90 day total.

So, for example, if you come to the EU for 3o days, then leave for 30 days, then return for 30 days, etc. the 180-day time frame slides forward. This is the maximum pattern you could get away with and still be in technical compliance with the EU rule.

But, it does not matter how you distribute your days in the EU, as long as they do not total more than 90 in the most recent 180-day period. However, I surmise that, eventually, someone is going to catch on to the pattern. If that happens, you likely will be refused entry and told not to return without a formal, embassy/consulate - issued visitors visa.

So, staying in, say Spain for 70 days, then going to Portugal for 10 days, then back to Spain for another 10 days, you have clocked the maximum 90 calendar days within the EU zone. Even if you "break" the EU stay pattern by going to a non-EU country, like Switzerland, the 90-day clock just picks up where you left off. In this example, you would not be let in, unless someone is asleep at the switch.

THAT is the essential difference between the US and EU visa-free travel systems. The US system resets to day 1 each time you apply for admission to the US from a foreign location.

So, like similar systems around the world, a foreigner traveling under the US Visas Waiver Program rules can make a "visa-run" to an adjacent country then come back a few days later. I will tell you from professional experience that the computers track this pattern. You may get away with it once, or even twice. But eventually, you will be interviewed in private (not desirable) and be told you must have a proper, embassy-issued nonimmigrant visa the next time you seek admission. It is likely that the officers will refuse you admission to the US.

The EU / Schengen system establishes a 180-contiguous calendar day time frame and only permits you to remain in the EU for a total of 90 days, no matter how you accumulate them.

I hope this helps.

This is a heck of a lot to take in. I appreciate your sharing all of this but it is very difficult for me to understand. I suppose I will just go to France/Spain, eat up most of my 90 days and if I still have the wanderlust, head off to the Brittish Isles for a spell.

 

[C clearly]

it is very difficult for me to understand.

It's not so hard if you just remember this: As a Canadian or American, on any day, if you count back 180 days, you must not have spent more than 90 days of those days in the Schengen zone. To be safe, I would be sure to count both the first and last days as "in" the zone

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

You're correct in nearly everything you wrote Tom except one major point and one minor one.

First the minor one. Some countries that are part of the EU are not members of the Schengen zone and there are European countries that are not a part of the EU but are members of the Schengen zone. You mentioned Switzerland as a retreat to go to to get out of the Schengen zone but Switzerland (and Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) are actually part of the Schengen zone.

The major point is that Poland, a Schengen country, gives Americans special access above and beyond the Schengen rules. This page does a good job discussing the special case (and I've seen other pages like it that I trust):
https://travel.stackexchange.com/qu...d-more-than-90-days-in-a-180-day-period/57537

Denmark also gives Americans a break like this but if you have spent any time in any of the Nordic countries it subtracts that time from what would otherwise be available to you.
Thanks for spending the time cleaning up the rest of the visa mess though Tom.

 

[t2andreo]

It's not so hard if you just remember this: As a Canadian or American, on any day, if you count back 180 days, you must not have spent more than 90 days of those days in the Schengen zone. To be safe, I would be sure to count both the first and last days as "in" the zone

Of course, THAT is the easy and simple rule of thumb.

Thank you for the assist. I do get carried away...

 

[trecile]

. Most EU citizens can come to the US and stay sans visa for up to 90 calendar days. So, if, on the 89th day they go to Canada, the Bahamas Islands, Mexico, etc., and return, say two days later, the 90-day clock starts running again from Day 1.

No, no, no!
The clock does not reset if they travel to those countries. They must leave North America entirely. And that includes the Caribbean nations.
Also, they must apply for an ESTA - visa waiver - before traveling.
ESTA information

If you are admitted to the United States under the VWP, you may take a short trip to Canada, Mexico, or a nearby island and generally be readmitted to the United States under the VWP for the remainder of the original 90 days granted upon your initial arrival in the United States. Therefore, the length of time of your total stay, including the short trip, must be 90 days or less. See the CBP website. Citizens of VWP countries* who reside in Mexico, Canada, or a nearby island are generally exempted from the requirement to show onward travel to another country* when entering the United States. Learn more on the CBP website.

 

[t2andreo]

Doh! Of course you are correct. I forgot. My bad.

I hope this is clearer now.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I've dug around and found three good websites about Americans (and some nationals of other countries) staying in Poland beyond the Schengen 90 day limit. One of the sites is that of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Republic of Poland. Americans can stay in Poland for 90 days at a time and then leave for a day and then enter Poland again for another 90 days (and repeat). There may be other limits for the other nationalities allowed to spend extra time in Poland. Here is how I found the visa agreement with the US at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website:

Their homepage: https://traktaty.msz.gov.pl/
Click "International version" to get to: https://traktaty.msz.gov.pl/indexen.php
Click "Bilateral agreements" to get to: https://traktaty.msz.gov.pl/bape.php
In the form on that page I entered United States of America in the field labeled "State/Party of the agreement" and then entered "Search."
I got 83 results and I searched for the word "visa" and entry 20 showed:
------
Title of the agreement: Agreement in the form of an exchange of notes between the Government of the Republic of Poland and the Government of the United States of America concerning the abolition of visas for nationals of the United States of America.
Signature date: 1991-04-04
Effective date: 1991-04-15
Publication of the agreement:
[and a download button]
------
The download button gets this multi-lingual PDF document:
https://traktaty.msz.gov.pl/getFile.php?action=getfile;5&iddok=8047


The other websites are:
https://travel.stackexchange.com/qu...d-more-than-90-days-in-a-180-day-period/57537
http://expatcenter.blogspot.com/2013/05/staying-in-poland-without-visa-visa.html

The first entry at the stackexchange site was in 2012 but it was active up to 2016.
The expatcenter blog was created in 2014 but the latest entry was March 14, 2017.

Apparently Poland does not care what country you leave to as long as you can show you left. However if you leave to a Schengen country you have now spent 91 days in the Schengen zone and this can cause serious problems. I recommend leaving to a non-Schengen country for one full day and getting your passport stamped leaving and returning to Poland.

However you still can get in trouble, lets make up an example. You are American and never were in Europe before. You fly to Madrid and land at noon. This is day one in the Schengen zone. You spend the next 88 full days doing various caminos. You leave Madrid at noon the next day to fly to Warsaw. This counts as day 90 in the Schengen zone. Your passport was not examined because you were flying within the Schengen zone. You spend the rest of the flight day in Poland. This is day 1 of your stay in Poland. The next 88 full days are spent completely in Poland, nowhere else. You fly at noon the next day to the UK on day 90 of your Poland stay. You spend the evening and the next day in the UK with the intention of returning to Poland on a flight to Warsaw the following day. Poland will let you in; you are following their rules. But the night before your flight you meetup with some members of one of your camino families and decide to fly to Madrid instead to do another pilgrimage. Now suppose that when you land in Madrid you get fined and are told to leave the country. Why would this be?

You spent 89 days in Spain, 1 day in Spain/Poland then were allowed 89 more in Poland and then 1 day in the UK. Poland, a Schengen zone country, did let you in because of the special agreement with the US but your stay there never-the-less has been days 90 through 180 within the Schengen zone. When you got back to Madrid the authorities had to look at your passport since you came from the UK, a non-Schengen country. In the last 180 full days you spent 1 full day outside the Schengen zone and 179 days inside. You are only allowed 90 days inside the zone in any 180 day period. You obeyed the laws while in Europe but you still ran afoul of the law due to technicalities.

In the expatcenter blog linked to above a poster with the name of ModernDayGypsy made some posts where he says he was caught at a one hour layover in Zurich just trying to make a flight connection between Poland and the US. He reported that, although he did everything legally, he was fined $600 and banned from the Schengen zone for three years. He also said he had to spend $6,000 to rectify the situation.

 

[Winstoniscute]

This is a heck of a lot to take in. I appreciate your sharing all of this but it is very difficult for me to understand. I suppose I will just go to France/Spain, eat up most of my 90 days and if I still have the wanderlust, head off to the Brittish Isles for a spell.

I know this is a long time since your original post. The UK, has a 6 month visa for Americans. So, now that it is no longer a part of the EU , if that whole thing has finished, I believe time in the United Kingdom does not count towards your 90 days every 180 days in the European Union. I am in the learning phase of all this, so please correct me if wrong. I wanted at some point to do the camino Francigenia, which of course takes much longer than the 90 day visa thing. So, whenever I get ready to do that one, I am going to do half of it, going to the top of the alps in Switzerland, then, when the weather allows 180 days later, spring, when the snow is melted, go back and do the last half. But, other caminos coming first, so that one is 5-6 years off.

 

[Kathor1]

Welcome to the forum, @Winstoniscute. Here are two things to remember for US travellers to Spain or France as far as the 90 days/180 days visa rules are concerned:

• Brexit will not change a thing.
• Staying in Switzerland will not make a difference.

The visa system is not an EU countries system, it is a Schengen countries system. It concerns you if you have an American passport and want to come for a visit. The UK has never been a member of the Schengen countries club while Switzerland is a member of the Schengen countries club. The EU area and the Schengen area are two different things.

Here's the difference between the EU area and the Schengen area (90/180 days visa area):



The UK has not yet left the EU but will do so at the end of March 2019. On Saturday 29 March at 11pm London time precisely.