A Question about Schengen Rules

[Healthful]

Hi

 

[joecamino]

I researched in 2014-- it can be confusing. Schengen rules allow 90 days in the zone in any 180 day period. Clock starts when you first enter zone.

Unless things have changed, you won't be able to do this exactly, because 50 days in, 50 out, 50 in equals 100 days in a 150-day span.

You can do something like this if you a) cut your stays to 45 days each, and/or b) spend more time out of zone between trips.

That help at all? : )

 

[C clearly]

As @joecamino says, you look at the last 180 days. Once you have spent 90 days total in the Schengen area, you must get out pronto. In the scenario you describe:

• 30+ days in USA (we include enough here just to account for 180 days)
• 50 days in Spain
• 50 days in USA
• 50 days in Spain

That accounts for 180 consecutive days, of which 100 would be in Spain. That is 10 days too many. You should have left after only 40 days on the second trip, or a similar adjustment.

 

[joecamino]

C spelled it out clearly. You're actually not that far off from making this work. Just extend your break in the middle to 60 days, and you're set. You could even spend some of it in the UK or Croatia-- they're not in Schengen.

 

[Healthful]

Thanks to you both. I was just trying to see how to make both a spring and an autumn walk work--and I like the idea of being there more than 45 days per trip.

Just so I understand, theoretically one could go for 89 days, come home for 91 days, and then return again for 90 days?

 

[joecamino]

You got it! I had a similar goal in 2014-- Europe trips in both shoulder seasons. Stayed about 60 days in April and May, came home for 60 days, and headed back in early September.

Enjoy your time there!

 

[scruffy1]

No politics of course, such is forbidden here, but even Americans are now suspect under the new - no don't say it Scruff - under the new regulations instituted concerning international travelers at the airports. Here in Israel many people possess dual citizenship and it has been reported regularly that American/Israelis returning to visit family over there in the Old Country have been interrogated sorry, taken aside for further questioning often lasting two hours and more. It is recommended to bring proof of residence even a rental payment, a salary receipt, or anything which can firmly maintain your reasons for returning. Be Prepared said Baden-Powell.

 

[Deleted member 43780]

Hope someone can give a good explanation of the 90 in 180 day rule.
Even had a Spanish Customs police man talk with me about it. And still not really sure how the counting goes.

yes, 90 days in 180.
explained to me by Spanish customs policeman: say you have done multi trips to/from Schengen country(ies)
Could be back to US, or even to UK (which is not a Schengen Group member). Days out of Schengen dont count toward the 90 in 180.

And now back to Spain. You count backwards 180 days from the day you arrive this time in Spain. i.e. did 45 and 10 before...inside this 180 day backwards count. So you have blown 55 days of your 180 allotted days thus far. Counting backwards 180 days.

Now could be misunderstanding on my part of his explanation. The 180 could have started the first day you did your first visit. But, comes out the same way counting... 90 in 180.

So you for this visit to Spain (for example) ..you have 35 days on this visit when you arrived on back on your 3rd trip .. 35+45+10 which is 90 of the 180 (which is 90 in 180)

Hope explained this ok. It is 90 days in your 180. How ever you want to "spend" your 90 in 180 is up to you. could do one day in Schengen Group and the next day out. Until you exhaust your 90 in 180.

Repeating what was told to me. I have yet to confirm if this is accurate explanation or not.
Now further confusing to me is when does the "clock" start new?

PS: does not apply to me. But despite asking for others in Spain I have yet to figure it out.
I know a guy who lives in La Linea. He stays as long as he wants beyond the 90. With no special visa or exception.
Pays his bills, never been in trouble. Seems to know all the right people.

And that is not the first time I have heard of such people.

When flying out of Spain sometimes you may not be stamped out ink stamp or electronically in your passport.
So when you come back (actual story) they may say "you didn't leave." Keep your departing ticket. Show it to them and you can prove you did in fact depart Spain (actually Schengen Group we are talking about not just Spain). A friend of mine who is in this 90/180 business actually showed a receipt for auto repair bill and hotel stay in Delaware USA. They accepted the fact that he did depart.

I have heard of many over staying the 90 and nothing was mentioned about. On the other hand, I have heard of others getting into trouble for over staying. Especially when dealing with the German customs. Do not know if it is true or not some actually had their passport stamped saying cannot return to Schengen Group countries for xx days/years.

The days of boat ride to Morocco to reset the clock are long gone. I knew a person who lived in Germany for years. He would simply drive to France. Get stamped out of Germany. Come back next day. Clock was reset. Well that was before the complicated (for some) counting days under the Schengen Group started.

With situation in Europe now...I have a feeling borders will be back up one day. And members departing the Group and EU makes for renewed border crossing. If these changes come about how it will impact on the 90/180 rule? got me

 

[Purple Backpack]

I wish I had the problem of trying to figure out how to spend 90/180 days in Europe.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

I wish I had the problem of trying to figure out how to spend 90/180 days in Europe.

I'm certainly paying close attention because, once my wife retires (in about 2 years), we intend to spend about a year in Europe. Part of this will be our pilgrimage along the CF. I had not known of "the last 180 days" sliding-scale thing before, and it really REALLY helps!

You see, Ireland (particularly the west of Ireland) is a lovely -- and o-so-close -- place to spend some time. Aye, 'tis grand! Because I'm one-quarter Scots-Irish, the opportunity to explore my heritage in Northern Ireland and Scotland awaits!

I look a lot more German than Scots-Irish -- even though I am half-blood Choctaw Indian. O the vagaries of genetics: Here I am looking German, with half the heart of an Irishman [the rest is Choctaw], while my younger sister is visibly a lovely Choctaw "princess". Sigh!

 

[Tincatinker]

As the UK is outside of Schengen US & Australian passport holders can spend up to 90 days in the Schengen area, 90 days in the UK without any visa requirements, and a further 90 days in Schengen. This gives you time to walk the Caminos Frances and Via de la Plata; The Pilgrim, Pennine and West Highland Ways and then perhaps pop back for the E4 from Tarifa to Athens as by then your legs should be well tuned . Some might like to do a few capitals for the cultural opportunities but I would regard that as a waste of the pictures available on the internet.

Edit: Eire is also outside the Schengen area for those who prefer drinking stout for 90 days rather than good ale :0)

 

[Kanga]

Sounds good to me @Tincatinker, if we could but afford it.

 

[jirit]

Thanks to you both. I was just trying to see how to make both a spring and an autumn walk work--and I like the idea of being there more than 45 days per trip.

Just so I understand, theoretically one could go for 89 days, come home for 91 days, and then return again for 90 days?

Yes

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I'm certainly paying close attention because, once my wife retires (in about 2 years), we intend to spend about a year in Europe. I had not known of "the last 180 days" thing before, and it really REALLY helps!

Like the Kiwis who can stay in various Schengen countries for 90 days each Americans can do the same in Denmark and Poland. It is kind of complicated with some quirks but it is possible to do something like spend 90 days in Germany and then the next 90 in Poland, go to Russia for a day or two and then back to Poland (or maybe some other Schengen country). I don't know how they keep records in such cases. I'm not intending to say how it works but just indicate that the possibility exists for those interested in researching the details.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

Eire is also outside the Schengen area for those who prefer drinking stout for 90 days rather than good ale :0)

May I, then, introduce you to a most-excellent Irish ale called Smithwyck's (pronounced "Smith-icks")? It is an Irish Red Ale and, if I may be so bold, is an excellent example of the Irish Brewmasters' Art! In my estimation it is far better than Guinness or any other Irish Stout, all of which should be chewed before swallowing....

PS: In the "more-than-you-ever-wanted-to-know department", the Smithwyck's sold in the United States contains a bit more alcohol than that in Ireland....

 

[Tincatinker]

Ah, but it comes from a keg, not a cask. Its pasteurised and served under top pressure from a nitrox / CO2 cylinder. But perhaps we should take this discussion to naturalrealenglishaleistheonlyciviliseddrinkontheplanet.org

 

[Tincatinker]

Sounds good to me @Tincatinker, if we could but afford it.

Lodgings available to all true hearted pilgrims on the southern edge of this be-sainted isle (especially moderators)

 

[C clearly]

when does the "clock" start new?

The clock starts when you enter the Schengen region. Every day you are in a Schengen country, you need to be able to count back 180 days and not have been in the Schengen region for more than 90 days. Thus it never "re-sets" as a bundle. It re-sets by one day, every day that you are out of the region. Thus it is a rolling count.

 

[MTtoCamino]

First I want to thank Skruffy 1 for an honest accessment of plain goofy attempts at border control.
Now my question is you get to an area to fly out & realize you have been in Shengen areas for 92 days as example.Has anyone had experience with customs in such an example? Did they get a fine, a birthday taken away or possibly a cavity search?

 

[Deleted member 43780]

That story must be at least 20 years old, right ?

And I am of course fully aware of the rules against discussing anything that looks even remotely like politics but I am surprised that you call it a Schengen mess. For years, residents and business inside the Schengen area regarded it as a good thing that the internal border controls disappeared. Long-term issues with control of the external land/sea/airport borders is another thing. Or did you mean to say that the calculations of the days allowed for staying in the Schengen area are a mess?

There are online calculators as well as apps to assess the periods of time for staying in the Schengen zone as external visitor. Google Schengen calculator.

Following a recent post by someone from New Zealand, I was intrigued to learn that there are a number of bilateral visa waiver agreements between some of the Schengen countries and some non-Schengen countries such as NZ that were concluded a long time ago and are still valid international law. The Schengen calculators don't take these into account as it would be too complicated. I read recently that there are plans to phase out these bilateral agreements over the coming years but these plans are still in the EU pre-legislative phase.

Over, well over, 20 years ago. 75 here ....so long long long time ago.
How things have changed.

Clarify: "mess"..... Better word would have been "complicated" at times.

Well aware of EU and Schengen Group. Was born in Seville. Living back in Seville now. Actual name is Martin...of course Spanish. Got "marty" from American friends.

The calculator you mentioned would be very helpful to people. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 43780]

C clearly, thanks for the simple explanation. Great job. Thanks

As the UK is outside of Schengen US & Australian passport holders can spend up to 90 days in the Schengen area, 90 days in the UK without any visa requirements, and a further 90 days in Schengen. This gives you time to walk the Caminos Frances and Via de la Plata; The Pilgrim, Pennine and West Highland Ways and then perhaps pop back for the E4 from Tarifa to Athens as by then your legs should be well tuned . Some might like to do a few capitals for the cultural opportunities but I would regard that as a waste of the pictures available on the internet.

Edit: Eire is also outside the Schengen area for those who prefer drinking stout for 90 days rather than good ale :0)

Great idea. Do the CF and something else. Then go to UK and walk.

 

[Deleted member 43780]

The clock starts when you enter the Schengen region. Every day you are in a Schengen country, you need to be able to count back 180 days and not have been in the Schengen region for more than 90 days. Thus it never "re-sets" as a bundle. It re-sets by one day, every day that you are out of the region. Thus it is a rolling count.

Thanks. Good explanation.

 

[jirit]

First I want to thank Skruffy 1 for an honest accessment of plain goofy attempts at border control.
Now my question is you get to an area to fly out & realize you have been in Shengen areas for 92 days as example.Has anyone had experience with customs in such an example? Did they get a fine, a birthday taken away or possibly a cavity search?

I did, stayed 120 days one year awhile back

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I did, stayed 120 days one year awhile back

Records have been computerized at airports. Expect to get caught and suffer the consequences! I think there is lot of misinformation in earlier posts. I suggest that experts be consulted, not anecdotal posts in the Forum. No insult intended!

 

[Deleted member 43780]

Records have been computerized at airports. Expect to get caught and suffer the consequences! I think there is lot of misinformation in earlier posts. I suggest that experts be consulted, not anecdotal posts in the Forum. No insult intended!

Exactly. Good post. Thanks

 

[poogeyejr]

First I want to thank Skruffy 1 for an honest accessment of plain goofy attempts at border control.
Now my question is you get to an area to fly out & realize you have been in Shengen areas for 92 days as example.Has anyone had experience with customs in such an example? Did they get a fine, a birthday taken away or possibly a cavity search?

It depends on the customs agent you get and your interaction with that person, over staying visitor allowance can be punished by a Ban from returning, "Illegal Immigrant" stamped in your passport and immediately sent back to your country of origin, extended questioning, and/or extensive fines.

 

[Deleted member 43780]

It depends on the customs agent you get and your interaction with that person, over staying visitor allowance can be punished by a Ban from returning, "Illegal Immigrant" stamped in your passport and immediately sent back to your country of origin, extended questioning, and/or extensive fines.

possibly, if have money, place to stay, a return ticket, a good attitude, not wanted by police, not in trouble...possibly over looking a reasonable amount of days over 90 in 180 could be done?

 

[MTtoCamino]

possibly, if have money, place to stay, a return ticket, a good attitude, not wanted by police, not in trouble...possibly over looking a reasonable amount of days over 90 in 180 could be done?

Yes that was my experience as well never a mark in my passport in Spain, yet they definately track you thru the lodging. But not on a daily basis. That may have changed with the events in France. Best simply to track the days. Like you say if it is a good reason I think it would work out fine.

 

[Micah26]

So I am totally ignorant about these rules. Is it possible if I were in this area and wanted to spend 9 months volunteering. Can I get a visa or waiver to do this or the 180 is set in stone regardless? Thanks.

 

[trecile]

So I am totally ignorant about these rules. Is it possible if I were in this area and wanted to spend 9 months volunteering. Can I get a visa or waiver to do this or the 180 is set in stone regardless? Thanks.

I believe that you would need a visa. My son studied in Sevilla for a year, so needed a visa for that.

 

[C clearly]

So I am totally ignorant about these rules. Is it possible if I were in this area and wanted to spend 9 months volunteering. Can I get a visa or waiver to do this or the 180 is set in stone regardless? Thanks.

Depends on what your nationality is! Various kinds of visas are available - you need to look up the Spanish consulate in your country - but they are sometimes complicated to get. The 90/180 is set in stone for many of us to travel in Europe without another type of visa.

Immigration rules shouldn't be treated as "guidelines for tourists, with exceptions for nice people."

 

[trecile]

Immigration rules shouldn't be treated as "guidelines for tourists, with exceptions for nice people."

I totally agree. Unless you don't care if you are banned from certain countries. It's important to respect the laws of the countries that we visit.

 

[jirit]

Records have been computerized at airports. Expect to get caught and suffer the consequences! I think there is lot of misinformation in earlier posts. I suggest that experts be consulted, not anecdotal posts in the Forum. No insult intended!

And this was not to suggest my extended stay of 120 days was without consequence

 

[Deleted member 3000]

possibly over looking a reasonable amount of days over 90 in 180 could be done?

No.

U.S. border protection is resulting in retaliation by other countries, and it may not be limited to Muslims. I would not expect border agents to be in a good mood!!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

So I am totally ignorant about these rules. Is it possible if I were in this area and wanted to spend 9 months volunteering. Can I get a visa or waiver to do this or the 180 is set in stone regardless? Thanks.

Apply for a visa with the country in which you will spend the most time volunteering. Volunteering does not get you a waiver, but it probably is a good reason to approve a visa. You will need to provide assurance that you can support yourself and get back home without cost to the host country. With a visa you can visit other Schengen countries, but don't overstay the visa!

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

So I am totally ignorant about these rules. Is it possible if I were in this area and wanted to spend 9 months volunteering. Can I get a visa or waiver to do this or the 180 is set in stone regardless? Thanks.

This webpage has a lot about staying longer than 90 days in Europe that I've seen elsewhere too:
http://www.nomadicmatt.com/travel-blogs/how-to-legally-stay-in-europe-for-more-than-90-days/

And you can Google longterm schengen

Use the information from the web to decide which way you want to go and then check with the embassies and consulates of the countries of interest.

 

[Kitsambler]

Back to the calendar and counting: please note that when dealing with calendar days, your usual rules of arithmetic do not apply. Consider these examples:
1) Arrive in Spain on 1st, leave Spain on 5th. Arithmetic says 5-1=4. Wrong answer! Count the days 1-2-3-4-5, you spent 5 days in Spain.
2) Depart US on 1st on a red eye, arrive in Spain next morning, leave Spain on the 5th. You arrived in Spain on the 2nd. Arithmetic says 5-2=3. Wrong answer! Count the days 2-3-4-5, you were in Spain 4 days.
3) Arrive in Spain on the 3rd in the morning after a redeye from the US. Your flight home from Madrid is scheduled to depart at 11:30pm on the 6th. However it is delayed by an hour. Arithmetic says 6-3=3. Wrong answer! You don't actually leave until the 7th (doesn't matter how early). Count the days 3-4-5-6-7, you spent 5 days in Spain.

So: a day starts when your foot touches ground in the Schengen zone, and a day ends when your foot leaves the Schengen zone. And count the days. And allow a little elasticity in your plans as "stuff will happen".

 

[jsalt]

And allow a little elasticity in your plans as "stuff will happen".

Too right, just when you don’t expect it. At Porto airport waiting for our flight out, the volcanic ash from Iceland cancelled our flight home, via London. We had to leg it down to Lisbon and buy another flight going south (to Mozambique) to get back home.

 

[camino-david]

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO AUSTRALIAND CITIZENS:
I have only just heard that Australians using an Australian passport are allowed an extra 90 days (ie 180 days in Schengan zone), due to a trade agreement between Germany and Australia, so long as you enter and depart Germany initially and maybe spend a small part of that time in Germany. Not even some of the immigration officials at German airports know this. But I have yet to verify if this is correct. When I do, I will post the information.

 

[camino-david]

Sorry - there should be no D at the end of AUSTRALIAD, just AUSTRALIAN

 

[Healthful]

Egads! After reading all of this and posting the question in the first place to make sure, I then booked two sets of nonrefundable tickets only to realize I made a mistake and booked a total of ONE day over the 90 day allotment. Do you think I'll be ok at 91?!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Do you think I'll be ok at 91?!

Only at considerable risk. Expecting a friendly border guard is a very high expectation these days. If having "Illegal Immigrant" stamped in your passport is acceptable, that may be all that will happen. For one day, I doubt they would bother with actual deportation processes, since you would already be leaving. The passport scanning machine/computer does the math, so you probably cannot count on finding a passport control agent who is bad at math. You can only hope for one that looks the other way. Since the computer knows that the agent has been told you were in the Schengen region for 91 days, he could face disciplinary action. If he has to choose between his job and your mistake, you could be at that considerable risk.

In the end, it is up to you. It is no longer the good ol' days of international travel!!

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Egads! After reading all of this and posting the question in the first place to make sure, I then booked two sets of nonrefundable tickets only to realize I made a mistake and booked a total of ONE day over the 90 day allotment. Do you think I'll be ok at 91?!

This is a way that you may be able to make everything OK. Spend at least two FULL days outside the Schengen area in that period and get your passport stamped to show you did that. Keep your hotel receipts too.

You can probably find some cheap flights to the UK or Ireland but Andorra is outside the Schengen area and Gilbraltar is British and so is also. And if you are going to Gilbraltar you may well want to visit Morocco. There are ferries to there from at least one Spanish port.

Edit: See a post below. For political reasons Spain treats Gilbraltar as a special case.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I have only just heard that Australians using an Australian passport are allowed an extra 90 days (ie 180 days in Schengan zone), due to a trade agreement between Germany and Australia, so long as you enter and depart Germany initially and maybe spend a small part of that time in Germany. Not even some of the immigration officials at German airports know this.

I would be very careful about this. I think it is likely for this 180 day visit to the Schengen area to work without you running a risk of overstaying your Schengen tourist visa you have to spend at least a total of 90 days in Germany. And it may be required that it be consecutive days. If so then I recommend that you have proof that you were in Germany all that time such as having copies of your hotel bills (or parking tickets. )

Edit: Check with the German embassy or a very experienced travel agent.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

This just in:

European Parliament pushes for reimposition of visas for US
By Associated Press
March 2 [2017] at 7:13 AM

BRUSSELS — The European Parliament is pushing for the bloc’s executive to temporarily reimpose visa requirements for U.S. citizens visiting the European Union in a standoff over Washington’s failure to grant visa-free travel for nationals of five EU countries.

Link for the rest of the story

BTW: The US requires Poles to get a visa prior to entering the USA. Poland allows US visitors in without a visa for 90 days, leave for a day, repeat, repeat and repeat.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I've been trying to get my head around this situation "Schengen rules" vs "bilateral visa waiver agreements".

Yeah. It may be easier to get an EU citizenship than a longterm visa.

 

[C clearly]

I then booked two sets of nonrefundable tickets

Try your airline, today, to see if you can change. You can hope for a friendly airline agent instead of a friendly immigration official!

Sometimes you can change/cancel your airline ticket within 24 hours at no cost. "Nonrefundable" does not mean "non-changeable" but there is usually a considerable change fee if done after 24 hours after booking.

 

[Former member 35551]

I think you may be overthinking this. Getting a long term Schengen visa for a US citizen is not that complicated. I did it last year via the French consulate in Houston and I think it took less than two weeks from the point I submitted my paperwork and got my visa.

There is a long list of requirements but they really only care about two things - 1) you have the resources to take care of yourself, including healthcare, while over there and 2) you will go home or at least leave Europe before your visa expires.

If it was me, I'd spend the 100 euros and get a visa. If you're traveling in May, you've still got time.

 

[Steven Dwyer]

[QUOTE="Rick of Rick and Peg, post:

BRUSSELS — The European Parliament is pushing for the bloc’s executive to temporarily reimpose visa requirements for U.S. citizens visiting the European Union in a standoff over Washington’s failure to grant visa-free travel for nationals of five EU countries.

I've looked into this as I am planning to head to Spain in September. The following is from Reuters -

"Commission officials noted a planned EU-U.S. ministerial meeting on June 15 to try and resolve the issue, which has been running since 2014. The EU executive already allowed a deadline for a solution to pass nearly a year ago, without taking action.

"We will report on further progress made before the end of June and continue to work closely with both the European Parliament and the Council," a Commission spokeswoman said, referring to the council which groups the governments of the 28 EU member states.

A Commission official said contacts are ongoing with the U.S. administration "to push for full visa reciprocity," but fell short of saying that immediate action would be taken."

I've learned from experience to check and recheck visa and entry requirements before a trip. I've been hit by sudden changes to entry policies when Brazil suddenly started fingerprinting (only) US citizens in response to the US policy for the same. While most people check about a visa, there are other reasons you can be denied entry upon arrival. It was not a pleasant morning when the immigration agent at the Canadian border informed me "Her Majesties government will not permit you to enter."

 

[t2andreo]

I'm certainly paying close attention because, once my wife retires (in about 2 years), we intend to spend about a year in Europe. Part of this will be our pilgrimage along the CF. I had not known of "the last 180 days" sliding-scale thing before, and it really REALLY helps!

You see, Ireland (particularly the west of Ireland) is a lovely -- and o-so-close -- place to spend some time. Aye, 'tis grand! Because I'm one-quarter Scots-Irish, the opportunity to explore my heritage in Northern Ireland and Scotland awaits!

I look a lot more German than Scots-Irish -- even though I am half-blood Choctaw Indian. O the vagaries of genetics: Here I am looking German, with half the heart of an Irishman [the rest is Choctaw], while my younger sister is visibly a lovely Choctaw "princess". Sigh!

As a US citizen seeking to spend a year, or any amount of time beyond the 90/180 day setup for visitors aptly described above, you will need a proper nonimmigrant, long-stay visa for the EU. Retired persons can apply for a Schengen Type D visa, that should be applied for in the primary country you will reside in during your long stay in the EU.

The essential requirement for this category visa is that you have independent means and do not need to work to support yourself while in the EU / Schengen area. You apply for a Type D visa through the embassy or consulate of the primary long-stay country in your present home country. However, the visa would be honored in any EU country. That is why it is called Schengen Visa. Search for the embassy of your choice using Bing or Google.

These long-stay visas are not cheap (@ USD 400 if I recall correctly), and must be revalidated annually, also at some cost (@ USD 110, again, IIRC). But they are good for four years overall, if revalidated annually. The annual revalidation occurs somewhere in the primary country, typically at a police station or town hall.

The key aspect of this long-stay, temporary resident visa over a permanent residency visa is that, in general, you are NOT considered a resident of the EU country for TAX purposes. Bilateral tax treaties between the US and each individual nation prescribe that you only become liable to pay national income taxes once you become a permanent resident or resident citizen / national of that country.

The long-stay, nonimmigrant / visitor visa enables you to obtain a driver license, rent or buy property, hold bank accounts, etc. You can put money into the economy, but you cannot work, not legally anyway.

So, and for example, if you were to have a Schengen Type D "retiree visa" from Ireland and lived in Spain, you must still pay your taxes to the IRS, but as a temporary, albeit long-stay visitor to the EU nation, you would not be liable to pay annual income taxes to that jurisdiction. Typically, after the four-year temporary visa period passes, you have an opportunity to convert to permanent residency in the EU nation.

THAT change in legal status will bring you under the EU country's tax rules. You will then end up paying TWO countries taxes. However, you do not usually pay double.

The bilateral tax treaties between the US and each nation prescribe, for each nation-pair, what the payment scheme is. Typically, you pay the EU country where you live, and the IRS gives you a credit for the amount of tax you paid to that nation, applied to what you owe the US.

Of course, and if this is my daily "senior moment," it might work the other way around, pay the IRS first, then get a credit for this on the higher EU taxes. I forget.

A viable alternative, if you have the ancestry and documentation to establish the ancestry, is to apply for a second passport to claim nationality through ancestral links to a EU country. Go to the web site of the embassy of choice to investigate the requirements and procedures.

But, if you are serious about this, exercise due diligence and do your research. Check out the treaties before taking on permanent residence or full nationality (the second passport).

The US permits dual nationality. They seem to be most concerned that you pay your federal taxes based on worldwide income regardless of where you reside. So, having a primary US passport and nationality, as well as place of permanent abode, it is fine with the USG if you have a second EU passport to establish a claim to residency in that nation.

I worked most of my professional career as a US immigration officer. Since retiring ten years ago, I have considered and researched taking on a long-stay visa in one of several EU nations with which I have a link.

I even started the procedure to obtain a EU passport based on parentage and ancestry. However the procedures and tax consequences of the latter arrangement (passport) deterred me. I am of the professional opinion that the "sweet spot" is the Schengen Type D long-stay visa.

This said, YOUR SITUATION WILL VARY. No two people have the same situation, background, needs, and capabilities. So, caveat emptor my friends.

I hope this helps.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

Immigration rules shouldn't be treated as "guidelines for tourists, with exceptions for nice people."

 

[C clearly]

I hope this helps.

Very good summary. Thanks!

 

[t2andreo]

You are very welcome, indeed...

 

[Stringbean]

Dear All,

Quick question: Can one traveling from the USA go to Spain for 50 days, return home for 50 days, and then return to Spain to walk another Camino for 50 days?

I'm having a hard time understanding how things reset under the Schengen agreement before a Visa is required.

Thanks!

Hi there..........
I have been pondering that one as well............However you break it up, you can spend 90 days there inside of every 180 day period, and no more...... At 181 days, the count starts over, but not until then......I am hoping to spend 90 days this fall, but I think it may be wise not to cut it too closely.........I will leave a few days as a safety margin in case of travel delays, weird weather, etc....A major hassle at the border could seriously dampen any sense of peace and well being resulting from the pilgrimage.....
fair winds,
SB

 

[Frans]

Yes

No!! Within 180 days a max stay of 90 days!

 

[Dylan Price]

Dear All,

Quick question: Can one traveling from the USA go to Spain for 50 days, return home for 50 days, and then return to Spain to walk another Camino for 50 days?

I'm having a hard time understanding how things reset under the Schengen agreement before a Visa is required.

Thanks!

Sometimes having a NZ passport is really nice!

In 2015 my wife and I spend around 7 months in Europe including the Camino. While the rule for a NZ passport a
Is similar to the US one there is a big hole. As NZ had treaties with the individual members of the Zone prior to the formation of the EU those treaties remain in force under international law.

So this means that as a NZ passport holder we can spend up to 90 days in each of the original Zone countries without being classed as illegal overstayers!

Is this not a similar thing perhaps that the US passport could do also?

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Is this not a similar thing perhaps that the US passport could do also?

From what I have read a US passport will allow you to do something even better in Poland (in 90 days, out a day, repeat) and something similar in Denmark (90 days in but excluding any days spent in other Nordic countries.) I've also seen things where there are special cases for US passport holders in Germany and France but these were just mentions and my searches so far haven't come to anything that would make me trust that FR and DE will actually do that. There are many gotchas with this. Do not trust me either beyond my saying that I've found some questions but no answers.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

For Germany, this probably refers to § 41 Aufenthaltsverordung (not to be confused with Aufenthaltsgesetz ) which allows nationals of Australia, Israel, Japan, Canada, Korea, New Zealand und the USA to enter the country without visa, independent of the purpose and duration of their intended stay.

Thank you @Kathar1na.

I do not need this information as I'm not planning a long term stay in Europe but I do have an interest in the laws anyway. Using the information you provided I have found some webpages to explore the topic further later.
https://dejure.org/gesetze/AufenthG
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthv/__41.html

 

[kmrice]

So: a day starts when your foot touches ground in the Schengen zone, and a day ends when your foot leaves the Schengen zone. And count the days. And allow a little elasticity in your plans as "stuff will happen".

My question last summer was: flight arrives in Reykjavík at 11:54pm on July 27. Passport stamped at 12:27 on the 28th. Was my day 1 the 27th or the 28th? I'd have played it safe planning my departure and counted the 27th as day one, but didn't realize Iceland was in the Shengen zone. I had another calculation issue but will save that for another post.

 

[jirit]

No!! Within 180 days a max stay of 90 days!

89 days in plus 91 days out, equals 180 days, and the clock restarts again on the return visit

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Reading and trying to understand all these comments (and having my doubts about some of them), I feel relieved that all I need is my ID card to visit all of Schengen as long and as often as I want .

In my previous reply, I had not yet been aware of:
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthv/__16.html
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthv/anlage_a.html

Somehow your link https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthv/__16.html pointed to 41 instead.

I'm not sure what is harder to read: German, Google translation to English or Legalese.

I'm thinking that what is going on here is that in certain countries you cannot apply for residence except from your home country. This is beginning to look like Germany is saying that people from the named countries can apply for residence even if already in Germany.

I'm not going any further with this for now. Its too much work.

 

[Kitsambler]

My question last summer was: flight arrives in Reykjavík at 11:54pm on July 27. Passport stamped at 12:27 on the 28th.

You actually entered the Schengen zone when you crossed the dotted line on the floor at the immigration desk where your passport was stamped. For this case, the 28th is Day 1. (Never hurts to have a day's elasticity in case "stuff happens" though.)

 

[t2andreo]

My question last summer was: flight arrives in Reykjavík at 11:54pm on July 27. Passport stamped at 12:27 on the 28th. Was my day 1 the 27th or the 28th? I'd have played it safe planning my departure and counted the 27th as day one, but didn't realize Iceland was in the Shengen zone. I had another calculation issue but will save that for another post.

The passport stamp rules. So, using your example, you arrived in Iceland (an EU nation state) on 28 July. Your 90 day in 180 clock started on the 28th, NOT the 27th. This is an international norm. I encounter the same thing when I typically arrive from the US, via Japan, just shy of midnight at Bangkok, Thailand.

So, if you were intent on cutting things that thin, stall before entering the passport control queue on arrival. Use the rest rooms, brush your teeth, etc. Then proceed through the process once the clock strikes midnight and you are into the next calendar day.

I too, have toyed with the idea of a casual overstay in Europe. However, if you are found out, they can put you into their databases and require you to seek a conventional nonimmigrant visitor's visa to ever return to ANY EU country, not just the one you are found out in.

I hope this helps.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Quick question: Can one traveling from the USA go to Spain for 50 days, return home for 50 days, and then return to Spain to walk another Camino for 50 days?

I'm having a hard time understanding how things reset under the Schengen agreement before a Visa is required.

I've found a calculator that should help you determine your Schengen zone visa status. It should tell you your current status currently based on the time already spent in the zone. Or it can be used to see if future plans will work.

The calculator is here:
The English language version of the Short Stay Schengen Area calculator:

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/content/visa-calculator_en​

A broken link on the above page points to an instruction manual for the calculator:

ec.europa.eu/assets/home/visa-calculator/docs/short_stay_schengen_calculator_user_manual_en.pdf​

I think this is the instruction manual for the European Commission calculator although it is on a different website:

vfsglobal.com/latvia/georgia/english/pdf/short_stay_schengen_calculator_user_manual_en.pdf​

{This note added a day later: If the vfsglobal.com link becomes broken you can get an identical copy of the instructions here at the caminodesantiago.me site. See the next two posts in this thread.}

Here are some other links. I'm providing them for you in case you have an interest and to provide credence to the links above.

Official website of the European Union (not much here except presenting a choice of language):

http://europa.eu/​

The European Commission is the executive of the European Union and promotes its general interest (again, not much here except presenting a choice of language):

https://ec.europa.eu/​

The English language version of the European Commission homepage:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/index_en​

It was on this page that I found the link to the calculator:

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/index_en​

The link was an image on the bottom right of the above page and was titled "Short Stay Visa Calculator."

 

[jirit]

You will find in the Resource Section the following:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...l-for-the-short-stay-schengen-calculator.394/

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

You will find in the Resource Section the following:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...l-for-the-short-stay-schengen-calculator.394/

Thank you @jirit. I downloaded the version I got from vfsglobal.com and the one that you supplied in the resource section. They are identical byte-by-byte copies. I added a comment in the resource section indicating the location of the webpage providing the tool.

 

[kmrice]

You actually entered the Schengen zone when you crossed the dotted line on the floor at the immigration desk where your passport was stamped. For this case, the 28th is Day 1. (Never hurts to have a day's elasticity in case "stuff happens" though.)

Thanks!

My other question was this. Entered on day 1. Planned to catch a ship back to the US on day 90. But, the ship left Barcelona on day 1 of the voyage, spent day 2 of the cruise at sea and arrived in Malaga on day 3 of the cruise. Does this mean passengers left the Shengen Zone on day 1 of the cruise, had a day out of the zone, generating the right to spend another day in the Zone, or did the time at sea in the Mediterranean count as time in the Zone, and thus add to the time spent in the Zone? One way I would have to board the ship on the 88th day after I arrived in ‎Reykjavik, the other way I could board on the 90th day. Any opinion on this?

By the way, following our Le Puy Camino with a visit to Barcelona and a ship crossing home was wonderful. There with two other couples and one solo walker who had just finished the Camino. (We all spotted eachother easily; no one else came on board looking scruffy and carrying a pack.) We met in the wine bar each evening and shared stories.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Entered on day 1. Planned to catch a ship back to the US on day 90. But, the ship left Barcelona on day 1 of the voyage, spent day 2 of the cruise at sea and arrived in Malaga on day 3 of the cruise. Does this mean passengers left the Shengen Zone on day 1 of the cruise, had a day out of the zone, generating the right to spend another day in the Zone, or did the time at sea in the Mediterranean count as time in the Zone, and thus add to the time spent in the Zone?

Let's hope that it went like this: Your passport was scanned at the airport and you entered Spain. Later that day you boarded the ship and your passport was scanned again as you left the country. One day in Schengen. You spent the next day at sea. On the third day your passport was scanned again as you disembarked. You are in the Schengen zone again on day 3 and the Schengen count goes up to 2.

Most likely though you didn't have your passport inspected embarking and disembarking from the ship. Border control shows 3 days inside the zone.

Here is one reason for getting your passport stamped on entry and exit.

 

[kmrice]

As I recall, passport was scanned when I boarded, but not when I got off and got back on in Malaga. Not sure if this is what always happens, but I think your analysis is correct since it is at a passport scanning that the days in the zone would be counted.

What I'm trying to figure out, though, is whether the day at sea is a day in the zone or not. I guess it's more of an academic question; how far out into the sea does the zone reach? If there is a three mile limit, or something like that, the Barcelona - Malaga leg would be out of the zone. But, I have no idea.

To be safe, we planned our arrival in ‎‎Reykjavík so that it was 90 days from our departure from Malaga, rather than from Bardelona, but I would have been happy to have a couple of extra days in Barcelona.

 

[Kitsambler]

... passport was scanned when I boarded,...

I would tend (uninformed tho I may be) to side with the dates entered into your passport/into the EU database by scanning, as an enforceability issue.

 

[C clearly]

Just wanted to say that I am finding this discussion on immigration and cross-border travel to be quite interesting. It seems to me, for many of us, a lesson in humility about the luck and the vagaries of our citizenships.

 

[VNwalking]

Adding a silly question, but just to make sure what I think is true IS true: Ireland is in the EU but NOT in the Schengen zone, right?
Interesting it is indeed, but also mind-bendingly complex.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Adding a silly question, but just to make sure what I think is true IS true: Ireland is in the EU but NOT in the Schengen zone, right?

True. For now.

 

[VNwalking]

Thanks, Rick. All that matters at the moment for me is June, so 'for now' is all I need to know, for now.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Bear in mind that Spain takes a different view and does not regard the border with Gibraltar as the kind of external Schengen border that matters in this context. While there is passport control at La Linea, they will not stamp your passport with a Schengen exit/entry stamp. Receipts of stay may not qualify as proof for a stay outside Schengen either if you later leave from a Spanish airport.

Oops. My mistake. Thank you @Kathar1na. Seems like it would have worked in theory. I'll edit my previous post.

 

[Deleted member 43780]

It took me 90 days to read all of this.
Now need a Cruzcampo.

 

[VNwalking]

From another thread and pertinent here:
(Especially the last question. I had not heard of this and wonder if it's 'pie in the sky')

(Off topic on this thread, so I'm copying the below also on a thread that was happening awhile ago about this...please reply there rather than here,)
Chuck Cunningham said: ↑
This will probably not matter but...What happens if you overstay your visa? Are they pretty ironclad on that rule? Would they probably catch you when you go thru customs coming back?
Yup. Don't do it.
Rick of Rick and Peg said: ↑
Not mentioned on the page linked to above is that you get pulled aside to have a long talk with the authorities. They may let you go with a warning but possibly only after you have missed your flight and you have to buy a new ticket (and good luck getting travel insurance to pay for it.)
Chuck Cunningham said: ↑
I just read the link and it looks like they can get a little grim with you for an overstay. Fines, banishment, etc. but no spanking. So i guess I'll have to be out on time.
Yes, spanking: I am told (but don't know form experience) they put a nasty stamp in your passport so that you won't be allowed in next time. And as Rick says, computers are connected so they'll know in Iceland (or wherever) what happened in Spain and vice versa.
Did I say? Don't do it.
Peter Wood said: ↑
The Spanish consulate has advised that we can apply to a local police station to extend our stay beyond the normal 90/180 day thing but can't guarantee that this will be granted and the extra time can only be spent in Spain.
I had not heard of this. Anyone??

(I can't manage to embed the quotes that people were replying to; here is Peter's with the pertinent information I was wondering about:
"We are from Aus and will probably take longer than most to do the Frances (we are travelling before hand in Germany). The Spanish consulate has advised that we can apply to a local police station to extend our stay beyond the normal 90/180 day thing but can't guarantee that this will be granted and the extra time can only be spent in Spain. This should work for us.....")

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

"We are from Aus and will probably take longer than most to do the Frances (we are travelling before hand in Germany). The Spanish consulate has advised that we can apply to a local police station to extend our stay beyond the normal 90/180 day thing but can't guarantee that this will be granted and the extra time can only be spent in Spain. This should work for us.....")

Some of the Schengen countries have treaties with non-Schengen countries that allow them additional time inside. I know NZ has many treaties of this sort and Australia has some. The US has special visa treaties with Poland and Denmark.

Extensions might be gotten in special circumstances like extraordinary family circumstances or perhaps to get your boat fixed or an order to not leave town until your court case has been heard.